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That's therestispolitics.com. Hi, it's

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Tom Holland here from the Goldhanger sister

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show, The Rest is History. And I'm

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here to tell you about a very

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exciting episode. It's out today. It's all

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about the men who walked on the

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moon, the Apollo missions, the space race.

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And it features a very exciting special

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guest, none other than Tom Hanks. So

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that is out today. And

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here is a little teaser. The

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interesting personalities of

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all of these crews, I think, comes out

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in Apollo 11, because I don't think you

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could have two individuals that are more different

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than Neil Armstrong was from Buzz Aldrin. And

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you chucked Michael Collins in there. And you

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have, honestly. I'm not sure

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those guys would have volunteered to, you know, drive

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to the beach to get, had they not been

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assigned to it. Search

1:02

The Rest is History wherever you get

1:04

your podcasts to listen now. Today,

1:08

we're releasing an interview that Alistair and I

1:10

did with Ed Kessler. We recorded it on

1:13

the 18th of March. And

1:15

I think at the center of the

1:17

whole thing is the relationship between what

1:20

is international, in this case, Israel-Gaza, and

1:22

what is domestic British politics, American politics,

1:24

and the way those two things interact.

1:27

In the week in which we're releasing

1:29

it, for example, we've seen a former

1:31

conservative foreign minister demand that a conservative

1:34

security minister in Britain be fired from

1:36

his job for apparently supporting settlements. We've

1:38

seen demands for members of the House of Lords to

1:41

be stripped of their position for speaking

1:43

for Israel in the House of Lords.

1:45

And of course, we have continuing the

1:47

fallout from the death of aid workers

1:50

killed by an Israeli strike in Gaza,

1:52

which we covered in the podcast this

1:54

week. But the broader issue, whether you're

1:56

talking about South Africa's case, or whether

1:58

you're talking about Biden's electoral

2:01

politics or Labour's struggle around this

2:03

issue, the way in

2:05

which an international issue becomes domestic

2:07

and the way in which tensions

2:09

are now rising within our own

2:11

societies between communities. And that's

2:14

where Ed Kessler has worked very, very

2:16

hard for 30 years and where

2:18

he says things have never been as

2:21

tricky as they are today. Welcome to

2:26

the West Sports League

2:29

with me Rory Stewart and

2:31

with me Ernest Campbell. And today

2:33

we're very lucky to have with

2:35

us Ed Kessler. He's a scholar

2:37

but he's particularly well known for

2:40

his work on the relationship between

2:42

different faiths. In particular, the relationship

2:44

between I suppose Judaism, Christianity and

2:46

Islam. He is the founder president

2:49

of the Wolf Institute which is

2:51

an academic institute in Cambridge which

2:53

studies interfaith relations. I first came

2:55

across him in fact in Amman

2:57

where we had an extraordinary dinner

3:00

with Muhsengess and also a Palestinian

3:02

newly appointed Palestinian bishop I think

3:04

who just turned up. And Ed's

3:07

story is of somebody who

3:09

is Jewish but who's taken a real

3:11

interest in this very, very tricky question

3:14

of engaging both in terms of communities

3:16

here in the United Kingdom, so thinking

3:18

through issues of antisemitism and the phallophobia

3:21

particularly relevant today and the extremism today

3:23

with Michael Gove, the definition

3:25

of government but also of course somebody

3:27

who knows the Middle East well. And

3:29

when I came across him was engaged

3:31

in very difficult issues of community relations

3:33

in Israel, Palestine. So

3:36

thank you very, very much for joining us.

3:38

Yeah, it's good to be here. And I'm going

3:40

to hand over I suppose to Alistair to get

3:42

us going and then come back. Yeah, thanks for

3:44

being here. I mean, I guess I want to

3:46

start with the observation that we probably wouldn't be

3:48

talking to you had it not been for October

3:50

the 7th. We might have done, but

3:53

I think that that has brought the sort of

3:55

issues we're going to talk about into very, very

3:57

sharp relief. So I want to start by asking...

4:00

Whether you have the same reaction

4:02

as we did when October Seventh

4:04

happened, that this was going to

4:06

presage. A. Pretty horrible period.

4:08

and the is being borne

4:10

out by events. It's been

4:12

absolutely calamitous period since October

4:14

seventh. Not simply because of

4:16

the attacks in Israel, but the following

4:19

war in Gaza, which is still ongoing

4:21

and the impact that his head around

4:23

the world. I've never known relations between

4:25

faith communities, particularly as Rory said, she's

4:27

Christmas and Muslims in this country to

4:29

be as bad as they are, and

4:31

that's a direct effect of struggling with.

4:34

Probably. The most difficult issue between us

4:36

all which is Israel? Palestine? Getting.

4:39

The when Hamas lot shudder soft

4:41

the thought of as thinking was

4:43

that that would happen. And. Is

4:45

this a good thing for what they are

4:47

trying to achieve? Whatever those I think there

4:49

are lots of reasons for some Us attack

4:51

and you've discussed. I'm in the program. The

4:53

rest is politics. I doesn't a source by

4:55

intimate relations. I think they wanted to undermine

4:57

whatever conversations that we're going on between Israel

4:59

and the Gulf States from some political normalization.

5:02

I think that one is from the mine.

5:04

any conversations that were happening between the Israelis

5:06

and Palestinians. I want a government that was

5:08

at serious decline, but they just wanted to

5:10

blow everything up bitterly And they've achieved that.

5:12

And I think they suspected they get the

5:14

response which. They have which is calamitous for

5:16

everybody and how do you see the way

5:18

out? where will that will come and and

5:21

oval comes to an end of one side

5:23

or another and what we've gotta start thinking

5:25

about. His said the day after eight will

5:27

end with some kind of resolution probably brokered

5:29

by Cutter. There was source a conversation going

5:31

on at the moment very said when I

5:34

met him in a man that was specifically

5:36

about terrorism and there's lots of conversations, mattress

5:38

and in some ways the map as the

5:40

theory some has been thrown already to steaks.

5:42

The courage of leaders on a great to.

5:45

And else to enable their to be

5:47

some kind of and resolution and moving

5:49

forward said would come back to the

5:51

Slater in that program that I'd love

5:53

to take steps to you and your

5:55

story. a sense of how old you

5:57

are, what I'm I'm somehow or. I

6:00

was gonna get a community you grew up

6:02

within the Us. How you came to this

6:04

works. How this work has changed isn't the

6:07

most substantial guess so them. So if my

6:09

parents were both born in Vienna, Came.

6:11

Over as refugees and personally chairing a commission

6:13

and the integration of refugees said the sec

6:16

who has that come around and as very

6:18

aware of as a kid growing up in

6:20

South Gate north London one of the nice

6:23

suburb and and said give me South Gators

6:25

with dull areas of the universe or same

6:27

as thirty one thing at size sars I

6:29

know nuts Amy Winehouse went solo facilities to

6:32

come to assess assess assess your skates when

6:34

school London's local primary school and so public

6:36

school deeply unhappy at school secondary school and

6:39

then when seen of us T and I

6:41

ended. Up in this world Murray because

6:43

of Maggie Thatcher. Contest.

6:45

Other sites of here have to school in university

6:47

works and then i went to Israel with on

6:50

a kibbutz before traveling around the middle east but

6:52

a time i came back at apply to study

6:54

hebrew. He read apartments at close.

6:57

To. New applications because of the cats says they

6:59

put me in his partner theology at I

7:01

ended up to religious studies, Tory cuts, sores

7:03

and your parents came in from Vienna when

7:05

has chosen to my mother me kindertransport signal

7:07

right? Yeah they have a very very i'm

7:09

leaving their pants behind So my father's family

7:11

go out to the had a business than

7:13

the whole family got out the sunset. The

7:15

business again in East London caucuses without has

7:17

the group i work that a seven years

7:19

and what does it does at the time?

7:21

My great great grandfather was a would Santa

7:23

and he made umbrella handles which was assessed

7:25

in excess for in the. Eighteen eighties Eighty

7:27

nine says and he said so one of his

7:30

shouldn't go to London because it rains a lot

7:32

that be good for business as a result of

7:34

that decision that an asian in London he got

7:36

the whole family out the last. the business because

7:38

of cost for seems appropriate to by Hitler and

7:41

the regime but this ah stuff again in Stoke

7:43

Newington and be salaries and now they're in in

7:45

East London. My mother was sponsored by synagogue called

7:47

the Liberty or Synagogue and we were brought up

7:49

there in since on who is it was a

7:51

slip from South Case but. They sponsor

7:53

my mother out says good enough reason and tells

7:56

us that of that's what an approaching a

7:58

cynical to sign the huts sits within. Judaism.

8:00

So the Jewish community in this country is about

8:02

300,000 and it's divided between, if

8:05

you like, three different denominations. There are lots, of

8:08

course, but let's put them into three, a bit

8:10

like the Catholics, Protestants and the Orthodox church. You

8:12

have the Orthodox, you represent about 30%. And

8:15

then you have the progressives, liberal and reform.

8:17

In fact, they're going to become one movement

8:19

in the coming year. And they also represent

8:21

about 30%. And

8:23

then you have ultra-Orthodox, that's called Haredi, whether

8:25

it's in Stanford Hill, the Northeast, who really

8:28

just keep themselves in their own little world.

8:30

And you have a good proportion of Jews who are

8:32

non-affiliated who are secular. I work very hard when people

8:34

ask me what kind of Jew I am, which you

8:36

haven't asked, but I'm going to preempt it to say

8:38

that I'm a Jewish Jew, because I would go to

8:41

a liberal to reform to an Orthodox synagogue. And in

8:43

the work that I do, it's

8:45

really important that I cross boundaries. And

8:47

also to the ultra-Orthodox community. Yes, I

8:49

have relations with the ultra-Orthodox community as

8:51

well. They have interesting outreach programs. There

8:53

are some similarities between the evangelical churches

8:55

and the ultra-Orthodox communities that you wouldn't

8:57

expect. Just to explain to somebody who

9:00

doesn't really understand that much about religion,

9:02

define the difference between a Jew and

9:04

a Christian. What are the big things

9:06

that divide a Jew from a Christian?

9:08

The irony is that Christianity is based

9:10

around the Jew, called Jesus. Jesus

9:12

was born, he lived, he died a Jew.

9:14

And his followers claimed him to be God

9:17

or the son of God. And that's what

9:19

made Christianity begin to separate from Judaism, even

9:22

though it was about Jewish things. And the

9:24

arguments in the New Testament are about things

9:26

like food, law, circumcision, or whatever. But the

9:28

belief in the life, death, and resurrection of

9:31

Christ as something absolutely

9:33

fundamental is what

9:35

divides Jews and Christians. In which case, why

9:37

can't they sort of quite come to get

9:39

along? Why can't they resolve that rather than

9:41

they've done? Because you would understand in the

9:44

political world, there are certain truth claims that

9:46

you have. You and Rory get on pretty

9:48

well. I get on with Christians pretty well,

9:50

but you differ over your allegiances, over your

9:52

political truth claims, as do Jews and Christians.

9:54

Jews don't think the Messiah is right, don't

9:56

think the world has changed in that way,

9:58

Christians think he has. and thinks he's going

10:01

to come back. Even more puzzling, I think, for

10:03

somebody from the outside, difference between Jews and Muslims.

10:05

I mean, that seems much closer, really, than the

10:07

distinction between Jews and Christians. Am I wrong about

10:09

that? You're wrong and you're right. So,

10:12

on the one hand, Jews and Christians show the fact

10:14

that Jesus was Jew, the first Christians were Jews, etc.,

10:16

etc. But the irony is,

10:18

theologically, Muslims and Jews are much closer. The

10:20

emphasis on the unity of God, the emphasis

10:23

on the legal tradition, coming out the Middle

10:25

East, customs like food laws and things like

10:27

that, circumcision, the boys, you know, they're incredibly

10:29

close. And in my conversations with Muslims around

10:31

the world, of course, that's where we always

10:34

begin. What do we have in

10:36

common? Through your life, have you, as an individual,

10:38

experienced much antisemitism? I did when I was younger.

10:40

I was an arsenal supporter, and arsenal top

10:42

of the games were pretty unpleasant affairs in

10:44

those days, and there was a lot of

10:47

antisemitic chanting. There was a lot of racist

10:49

chanting full stop. But, hold on, the antisemitic

10:51

chanting was directed against persons? Yes, we've still

10:54

made arsenal supporters feel pretty uncomfortable, right? Yeah,

10:56

imagine, yeah. But that was, have you personally,

10:58

as an individual? At school, you have comments

11:00

made about being a Jew. Sometimes

11:03

this antisemitism is so lightweight, you know, it

11:05

could be about, you know, comments about

11:07

your wealth or your power, your authority, you

11:09

know. Those are the tropes. Yeah, the tropes,

11:12

exactly. You mentioned October the 7th, and one of the shocking

11:14

things is the 12 fold rise in reported

11:18

incidents of antisemitism just in the

11:20

last few months. And these vary

11:22

from online antisemitic comments to, you

11:24

know, physical abuse and so on.

11:26

So antisemitism is dormant, it's always

11:28

there, as actually some form of

11:30

racism and hatred is often there

11:32

within our society, but it's very

11:34

much come into Western culture. Where

11:36

do you think it comes from?

11:38

I've never understood it. I've never

11:40

understood why the Jews should be seen

11:43

as such a persecuted race, and why there

11:45

is such a thing as antisemitism, why it

11:47

seems to be so profound through history. I've

11:50

struggled with that, you know, because much of

11:52

my work is about Jewish-non-Jewish relations. First

11:54

of all, there is within us, all of us,

11:56

an aspect where there is a dislike of somebody

11:59

else. all perfect. So you

12:01

have that within the human condition. Secondly, Judaism

12:03

and Christianity, which are the bedrock, if you

12:05

like, of Western culture. And obviously, we've added

12:07

Islam more recently in the last 150 years

12:09

or so. But nevertheless, Christians identified themselves as

12:11

not Jews. You know, we're not like you,

12:13

you might have provided Jesus a Jew, but

12:16

you failed to see that he was the

12:18

Messiah. You didn't read your own scriptures properly.

12:20

It goes back to that. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

12:22

Fundamentally, fundamentally, even earlier in some of the

12:24

pagan rock. Most of the people who today

12:26

might define themselves or we would say

12:29

you're being anti Semitic, would they even know

12:31

that's what it's about? They may not,

12:33

but it's like a cloud. It's there.

12:35

But what you're referring to is the

12:37

modern complexion of anti Semitism, which is

12:39

the rise of anti Semitism as a

12:41

racism, you know, Jews as what Hitler

12:43

did to intermention subhumans

12:46

and entered society in those tropes, as

12:48

you mentioned. That's interesting. So you're suggesting that

12:51

maybe I'm misunderstanding that with Hitler, a slightly

12:53

different form of anti Semitism emerged, got more

12:55

connected to race. So potentially an idea

12:57

that previously, the Christian antipathy was towards practicing

12:59

Jews, but that if a Jew converted to

13:02

become a Christian, was that something? You're

13:04

right. We go there in a moment in

13:06

terms of the difference of the rise of

13:08

racism in the late 19th century, it wasn't

13:11

Hitler creation, Hitler exploited it. But in

13:13

fact, the beginning of modern anti Semitism is

13:15

actually go back to Spain, the Iberian peninsula.

13:17

So Jews who were forced to convert

13:19

as were some Muslims were forced to convert,

13:22

they became new Christians, new Christians, not Christians.

13:24

In other words, those Christians time either married

13:26

old Christians, but they wouldn't marry the

13:28

new Christians because they were deemed a slightly

13:30

different. And you have this whole history of

13:33

what became known as Miranos or cryptochus,

13:35

secretus and Muslims as well became known as

13:37

Moriscos. Right. And so they were already deemed

13:39

as different as in the 16th, 17th century,

13:42

let alone in the late 19th. You

13:44

think about Hitler, though, in Germany in the 30s,

13:46

you may say that they were identified as

13:48

an intermensch. But actually, the fear was that

13:50

they were the kind of ubermensch, they have

13:52

the power, they have the money, they have

13:54

the tropes. The irony is they were the

13:56

communists, and they were also controlling the world.

13:58

They were guttless. You know, you could

14:01

choose whatever you want. Right. And so what Hitler

14:03

did, of course, was to find a scapegoat for

14:05

the failure of the First World War. And the

14:07

scapegoat within their midst was there. Was

14:09

it small? Yeah, relatively small. They

14:12

might have been very integrated, very German.

14:14

I mean, it was Austrian, of course,

14:16

very Austrian. Right. Leopoldstadt, you know, you

14:18

think about the contribution of Jews to

14:20

culture in Europe in that period before

14:23

Hitler. They were very easy targets. And

14:25

Jews couldn't believe what was going to

14:27

happen. It's easy looking back on it,

14:29

isn't it? They say that the optimists

14:31

stay behind and the pessimists left. So

14:33

if you take the Boy and the

14:36

Striped Pajamas, the final scene, it's almost

14:38

like when they're walking into the gas

14:40

chain, but they still don't know.

14:42

They still don't know that all hope is

14:44

gone. So what does that say

14:47

about, I guess, about the power of survival?

14:49

But also, I wonder how you

14:52

feel today's form of antisemitism differs from

14:54

that sort of antisemitism we saw then.

14:56

Today's form of antisemitism is often but

14:58

not always about Israel and Zionism. There

15:01

may be other tropes that hide behind

15:03

it, but actually a lot of it

15:05

is to do with Zionism and how

15:07

we handle Zionism. And one of the

15:10

failings of my world of interfaith and

15:12

one of the reasons why there's been such

15:14

a calamitous reaction here between communities is we

15:16

haven't dealt with the most obvious thing, which

15:18

is how do you deal with difference? We're

15:21

very good at building up relations where

15:23

with what we haven't common, Jesus the

15:25

Jew, sharing with Islam and vice versa.

15:27

It's not one way, but we haven't

15:29

really got to. We have

15:31

to get there. How do we deal

15:33

with the most difficult issues? And it could be theological.

15:35

I believe I'm safe and you're damned. It could be

15:37

a little bit profound. Yeah, or it could be to

15:39

do with a piece of real estate the size of

15:41

Wales. So let's move forward into the work that you

15:43

do professionally and have done now for more years than

15:45

you're prepared to reveal on the podcast. You're

15:48

saying that one of the

15:50

challenges is that interfaith work, bringing communities

15:52

together, isn't necessarily always about emphasizing similarities.

15:54

It may be about being honest about

15:56

difference. You start with what you have

15:59

in common. You know that and

16:01

the work you do. I want to get to know

16:03

you I mean dialogue is very easy because I

16:05

simply say tell me your story and I shut up

16:08

literally shut up So the

16:10

first thing is you get to know the

16:12

other person and you can't go anywhere without

16:14

that whether it's knowledge Whether it's feeling whatever

16:16

it is experiencing things together But

16:18

then you've got to go on to where

16:20

do we differ and how do we manage

16:22

that difference and we haven't done that well

16:25

enough I mean it's remarkable how

16:27

well we have done but October the 7th

16:29

and the invasion of Gaza and the war

16:31

Shows us how far we have yet to go.

16:33

What's the difference between what you

16:35

define as? dialogue and Conversation

16:38

I've seen you talking about that before I

16:40

thought it was really interesting Essentially

16:42

dialogue is really difficult dialogue is

16:44

about understanding the other person as

16:47

that person wishes to be understood

16:49

If we just unpack that it's

16:51

not simply you Messaging me

16:54

or me answering a question about a

16:56

fact It's you trying to get

16:58

into my shoes and vice versa.

17:01

It is really really difficult. That is

17:03

genuine dialogue That's what Martin boob talked

17:05

about. Hmm. There was a wonderful bishop

17:07

called Christa Stendhal He had three principles

17:09

of dialogue and and I add a

17:11

fourth to his three and the first

17:13

thing He said is when you want

17:15

to understand something go to that

17:17

person's religion You want to understand Judaism

17:20

or Christianity Islam? Whatever Hinduism go to a first

17:22

book or the person the second thing is compare

17:24

best with best or worst with worst I mean,

17:26

we're very good at comparing my best with your

17:28

worst The third in the interfaith world is to

17:31

have something called holy envy admire something about somebody

17:33

else And what I would add to it all

17:35

is have a sense of humor Because

17:37

there's a tricky world out there and

17:40

sometimes you can absolutely prick the tension

17:42

with a joke or something self-deprecating If

17:44

you as you were speaking I was

17:46

thinking right if this thing is

17:48

gonna get resolved at some point There

17:50

has to be some kind of dialogue

17:52

and some kind of progress between Israeli

17:55

and Palestinian right now on

17:58

all four I think

18:00

of the people that I've been seeing speaking for

18:03

Israel or speaking for the Palestinians and I see

18:05

no possible meeting of minds right now. You're

18:07

not speaking to the people who are trying

18:10

to do that. You're speaking to the leaders,

18:12

the representatives, quite rightly. But if

18:14

you go on the ground, there are some

18:17

little pockets of excellence, whether it's Jewish and

18:19

Arab groups in Palestinian groups in Israel, trying

18:21

to protect certain places. Rory will

18:23

know in certain parts of the West Bank,

18:25

whether it's rabbis or human rights working with

18:27

Muslim leaders. These are little pockets. They are

18:29

under incredible pressure because what's happened since October

18:31

the 7th is that for those of us

18:34

who are trying to do it, we're being

18:36

squeezed. When the majority feel

18:38

under attack, what do they do? They retreat

18:41

and they retreat within. That's what we've got at the

18:43

moment. I don't have a lot of optimism, but no,

18:45

to say there's nothing happening is not right. There are

18:47

things happening. There are things, but not

18:49

many. And once you're, we talked to Yuval

18:51

Noherari and he gave

18:53

a very interesting assessment of his own

18:55

relationship with the concept of Israel. And

18:58

now I think it's fair to say it was changing as

19:00

a result of October the 7th. Probably

19:03

still hates Netanyahu, but has a stronger feeling

19:05

for Israel. How would you define your relationship

19:07

as a Jew who hasn't lived in Israel?

19:10

How would you define your relationship with Israel?

19:12

Personally, I think as a Jew, I relate

19:14

to three aspects. I relate to the religion

19:16

and the way that I practice. I

19:18

relate to the culture, Jewish culture and literature

19:20

and so on. And I relate to land.

19:23

The land being specifically the land of Israel. My

19:26

aspiration, my hope is that there is a land of

19:28

Palestine and a land of Israel. How

19:30

we get there is beyond my pay grade.

19:32

We have to build the relationships up from

19:34

the ground. So in a way, I suppose

19:36

I would define myself and we've got to

19:39

be very careful. My wife read a book

19:41

recently called Untied Kingdom. Don't you come across

19:43

it? The Stuart Ward. It looks at the

19:45

development of the UK since the colonies and

19:47

since the subcontinent 1947 Palestine,

19:50

Ireland 1920s and so on. And

19:53

he came up with this term loose

19:55

fitting clothes. In other words,

19:57

you take a term and you kind of make it fit to

19:59

whatever you want. want. Some like Zionism. Zionism can

20:01

mean a whole array of different things, whether

20:03

I'm a West Bank nationalist religious settler on

20:06

the West Bank, whether I'm a secular Jew

20:08

in Tel Aviv, or whether I'm sitting in

20:10

London or in Cambridge or wherever I'm sitting.

20:12

So there's almost Zionism, which essentially means a

20:14

homeland for the Jewish people in the land

20:17

of Israel, makes no points and definitions about

20:19

the size of that land, the extent of

20:21

that land, the relationship with others. It's just

20:23

saying there should be a homeland there. That's

20:25

all it is. And I relate to that.

20:28

Well, that's just sort of interesting. How did

20:30

you get to your view that you are

20:32

in favor of space of what we would

20:34

call a two-state solution? How did you

20:36

decide that that is the direction of travel? Why do

20:38

you remain committed to that despite all the problems? And

20:40

is that a loose fitting garment? Oh, it certainly is

20:43

a loose fitting garment. It might be so loose that

20:45

it's fallen off. It's not clear to me, Rory, that

20:47

there is a two-state

20:49

solution such as the complexity and the division

20:51

and the building blocks in certain places. It

20:53

may be that we end up with one

20:55

state as a kind of federal state of

20:57

some kind or other. Princess Anna

20:59

Jordan, our mutual friend, talks about a confederation

21:02

of Israel, Palestine and Jordan. The answer is

21:04

I don't know. My work,

21:06

although I've done some work in

21:08

Israel in Jerusalem bringing together Israelis

21:10

and Palestinians and Israeli Palestinians and

21:12

Jordanians about Jerusalem itself and particularly

21:14

about Al-Aqsa, but my work really

21:16

is about the relations between people

21:19

and how we can get to a level where we

21:21

can actually get on a little bit better, whether

21:23

that's in Israel or Palestine

21:25

or whether that's here in the UK. Al-Aqsa

21:27

being, of course, the conversation around the Dome

21:29

of the Rock and the... It means the

21:32

furthest place, right? So it's the third oldest

21:34

place in Islam. It's also where the Temple,

21:36

the biblical Temple, stirred. It's 500 yards if

21:38

that from the Church of East Seprica. And

21:40

what we did, in fact, one of my

21:43

proudest moments was bringing together to Cambridge with

21:45

Prince Hassan's support just before COVID, 21 Israeli-Palestinian

21:47

Jordanians who work on the ground. How

21:49

can we or... I mean, I

21:51

don't mean to incense... The world. Well,

21:54

no, how can they? Yeah. Those three

21:56

groups. Those three groups sitting around the same. We do not

21:58

get along. How can we get along? help

22:00

you get along. It was a wonderful conversation

22:02

because they were out of the spotlight, they

22:04

weren't in their homeland, there was no coverage

22:06

and we were beginning to get somewhere. Tell

22:08

us about what that feels like. What are

22:10

the sort of changes you might see through

22:12

a conversation like that from how they arrive,

22:14

not getting along at the beginning and getting

22:16

a bit better as that conversation happens? What's

22:18

a good story there? A good story is

22:20

around the table when people introduce themselves, most

22:22

people knew most people, not everybody. Juan Israe

22:24

de Jú said quite aggressively, I want you

22:26

to know I am the

22:28

eighth generation Jerusalemite. And

22:31

everyone goes, goes

22:33

around about three further on and there's

22:35

Palestinian Catholic, not Muslim, Palestinian Catholic says

22:38

thank you, I'll give his name, thank you for sharing

22:40

that, I want you to know I'm the thirteenth generation.

22:44

And it kind of set the context, a little

22:46

bit gladiatura, a little bit adversarial, but

22:48

then the next day literally they sat down together

22:50

at breakfast. In the end

22:52

about relationships, can I trust you or not

22:54

trust you? It's not theology, it's not ideology,

22:57

it's not politics, it's simply look in your

22:59

eye, it's dialogue, understanding that person is the

23:01

other person which is to be understood and

23:04

it's trusting. Can I trust you? And at the moment there

23:06

is almost no trust between

23:08

the groups on the ground. When I saw

23:10

you walking up towards Piccadilly a few weeks

23:12

ago, you said that your sense was the

23:14

Jewish community in Britain was afraid and the

23:16

Muslim community was angry, I think. Tell us

23:18

a little bit about that, tell us firstly

23:20

about how the Jewish community feels and then

23:22

how in your experience the Muslim community feels

23:24

in Britain. The impact of the attack has

23:27

been quite traumatic on Jews around the world,

23:29

not just in the UK, but here in

23:31

the sense that nobody expected it, it was

23:33

a slaughter. It wasn't just an attack, it

23:35

was a slaughter, some of the things that

23:37

happened were truly, truly Awful.. And The

23:39

reaction to that was a rise in

23:41

antisemitism and it's like how have we

23:43

got here? And Then a retreat within

23:46

and then the kind of feeds one

23:48

off and the other. Let's just unpack

23:50

everything. What is the answer for why

23:52

the October 7th attack then triggered a

23:54

rise in antisemitism? This is very odd

23:57

collection of bedfellows, whether it's left wing,

23:59

anti-colonial, rhetoric. Reg Sees Israel is the

24:01

sort of representatives the sauce type of

24:03

colonialism. There is a sensors sadness at

24:06

the suffering of Palestinians and how terrible

24:08

it is. There is such heightened sensitivity

24:10

is that what is taken? his criticism

24:13

now becomes anti semitism. You know you

24:15

have something like something as simple as

24:17

from the river to the see. Lead

24:20

Palestine be free. That in itself isn't

24:22

anti semitic. my feet waving Palestinian flags

24:24

on anti semitic. but am I drive

24:26

through the streets of a Jewish area?

24:29

hunky my home. Waving Palestinian flags and

24:31

shouting that might be anti semitic it gets

24:33

so complicated Number two's have been on the

24:35

marches the big pro Palestine much as and

24:37

friend of mine sit outside what's in the

24:40

months said it was amazing. Hundreds of thousands

24:42

of people I didn't see any and to

24:44

some history any anti semitism another friends or

24:46

they saw with a few placards that were

24:49

anti semitic or the newtown scientist my think

24:51

it's what you select to see nuts on

24:53

the Muslim side and would making generalizations here

24:55

at least I am of which I'll be

24:57

criticized when I go back to Cambridge but

25:00

nevertheless. I'm on the Muslim side. generally

25:02

speaking there is incredible frustration at the

25:04

Palestinian voice might have had been heard

25:06

of the suffering of Palestinians, the lack

25:08

of progress in fact even was the

25:10

decline of any possibilities and the frustration

25:12

anger with that smell. The irony is

25:14

is what I've managed to to in

25:16

the nice to the Wilsons to has

25:18

managed to the last few months is

25:20

brings together small numbers of jews and

25:22

Muslims quietly here in London, in Oxford,

25:24

in Birmingham in other faces Cambridge First

25:26

for to say tell me your story

25:29

of how you feeling. Right now let

25:31

everybody expel that and then to

25:33

say way to weekend. And

25:35

the thing is Rory, they say the same

25:38

thing. I'm scared of going on the

25:40

tube in my head shop have taken down my missus of

25:42

from the door. And worried about

25:44

my kids. I'm worried about my past security.

25:46

I'm worried about social media. If is know

25:48

what hit shop and mrs it was you

25:50

wouldn't know whether some is in which he

25:53

sang he they say the same things and

25:55

then they hear themselves say it and it's

25:57

the beginning. Of. Moving forward isn't

25:59

she? The Jugular in the week

26:01

of St. Patrick's Day and I've

26:03

been watching endless soon so to

26:05

be just clips of the First

26:08

Minister and deputy First Minister of

26:10

Northern Ireland month cufflinks, one Protestant

26:12

going around Washington together and whenever

26:14

see the As and got that

26:16

shows that progress has been made

26:18

or this one review have any

26:20

sense of how within the Middle

26:22

East and context Israel, Palestine there

26:24

is still a process that can

26:27

lead to that kind of image

26:29

with in this context. Would you feel

26:31

pretty hopeless? One As a pessimist, I have

26:33

no choice but to be optimistic as a

26:35

story about three people who may interest in

26:38

every day. And. They look around

26:40

and I see that the world's chaos this

26:42

fighting the side The three pessimists. And

26:44

one day one from sense france have a to the

26:46

since you know have converted he said have become an

26:49

optimist. So. Has he been ups

26:51

Mississippi? Terrible things going on Center of so I

26:53

am now so accepting does that? Oh friends And

26:55

then a few minutes later they look at this

26:57

new to concerted optimistic looks been like me. wrinkles

26:59

and frowns and bitter gray. Has they say why

27:02

you looking so worried if you're not to miss.

27:04

He. Said you things easy to be an optimist. There's

27:08

no other ways way to go. For. Me

27:11

personally robbers amenities where's your doesn't

27:13

come from from Some advice over

27:15

I'm a senses. A process

27:17

you can see you're looking for process. Yeah

27:19

I'm looking for a license. okay I'm looking

27:21

for were those relations that people are gonna

27:23

get along that dinner begin to build bridges

27:26

between community standard of and an ordinance absolutes

27:28

and it happened at the same time in

27:30

the process. the also process was going on

27:32

at the same time. What happened to know

27:34

of none it was as a stretch out.

27:37

This piece may be a cold peace but

27:39

this piece was happening in Israel Palestine. The

27:41

collapse he okay at allissa could break. This.

27:48

Episode is supported by Naughty Bad

27:50

now Off the Top Your House

27:53

think some countries that restaurant internet

27:55

since. China. Yet.

27:58

Iran's yet. The Venezuelans probably

28:00

shut it down a fair bit. Maybe

28:02

Egypt movies anywhere we find that authoritarian regime.

28:05

That's. Right? So it's a living similar

28:07

that it's actually pretty tough to access

28:09

Basic sets inflation, get on with Pt

28:12

of fine cellphone. so it's a virtual

28:14

private network in those places. allows you

28:16

to communicate privately or change him apparently.

28:19

test it. Cannot She stopped Getting Arrested.

28:21

Now it's not an absolute or guarantee

28:23

because some of these countries can get

28:25

round this. but Nord V Pin has

28:28

been providing a free emergency Vpn service.

28:30

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heavy internet restrictions. Since. Twenty

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very useful in some countries I can't

28:39

imagine or the Missouri do very, very

28:41

well. Is. A place where

28:43

we couldn't quickly access those news

28:45

sources that we trust. That's true,

28:47

and I think the standards of

28:49

the stuff on the rest of

28:51

politics might decline greatly into. Researching

28:55

says I'm so we have. One of things

28:57

I use Nord Weekend for is a virtual

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the podcast. Blink is in the podcast

29:26

episode Disruptions. Going

29:33

on us. I've just come back

29:35

from sitting in America just last

29:37

week and. I'm. Not sure

29:39

some much British listeners are

29:42

aware just how. Extreme

29:44

situations. The common American investors

29:46

not on the one hands

29:48

you get your since at

29:50

Harvard's reporting poll were think

29:52

you're single stone people and

29:55

seeding private that so who's

29:57

screaming. And it's that sucks.

29:59

Slogans, Feeling afraid, feeling that

30:01

the class is being taught at Harvard

30:03

or themselves anti Semitic. So that's expenses

30:05

juice at Harvard. Very very negative. Very

30:08

frightened. And on the other hand I

30:10

have Muslim students saying to me that

30:12

there's no think what a canary list

30:15

where is they are reported to have

30:17

made for is considered an anti Semitic

30:19

statement and many of them would say

30:21

they haven't made any Edison excitements They

30:24

get on the list and then they

30:26

can't get a job at Mckinsey or

30:28

Top Hedge Funds New York. Ban

30:31

is driven up to Harvard let's

30:33

showing photographs. Name's the students who

30:35

are supposed to have made us

30:38

excitements. Endorsed. Palestine way

30:40

that any that's a script he lit

30:42

or Mccarthy Star Witch Hunts the names

30:44

of people have seems is being. Anti

30:46

Jewish or publish their said across the same

30:49

addresses some both sides. The thing as reach

30:51

six on a pits of real with and

30:53

I just want to leave can reflect slow

30:55

but about your sense of what's happening in

30:57

the Us Now he has who are Anyway,

31:00

I'm glad I'm not going to university now

31:02

you know or anything I might have been

31:04

appears in the social media never to be

31:06

rescinded. sort of things I did as a

31:08

kid than you probably did. You know to

31:11

declare him physically him beautiful. Give me the.

31:14

So America's in a really tricky situation, not

31:16

just. In this Universe says that in his

31:18

social structure is socioeconomic backgrounds in his political

31:20

machinations In the Universe is and he slept

31:23

with the resignations just recently of Gay right

31:25

ahead of Harvest. And not just the it

31:27

does, the Universe is that had source or

31:30

less. That's. The. Woke Culture the

31:32

wires about freedom of speech, the

31:34

incredible sensitivity to anything is deeply

31:36

deeply wiring. My worry is to

31:38

what extent as being transferred over

31:41

here. I in my classes want

31:43

my students to say inane, difficult,

31:45

problematic, possibly racist thing so I

31:47

can say this to stop the

31:49

some pack what you had to

31:51

say because they can't say it

31:54

with me. I worry where they

31:56

are gonna say at night and

31:58

honesty is that opens. The to

32:00

do that which we seem to have lost

32:02

in the United States even I find a

32:04

tricky fum giving a class somebody puts the

32:06

phone starts recording me because I don't know

32:08

I want to engage and I'm in. it's

32:10

kind of wires me when I make a

32:13

joke is appropriate. One of the courses we

32:15

talked with the Metropolitan Police officers Some I

32:17

started off with a really tricky joke and

32:19

they didn't know whether to laugh. So we're

32:21

at that point where everything so sensitive be

32:23

deployed Roar is making is the he silly

32:25

much much much more found in the United

32:27

States. Do think is coming here as well.

32:30

Because we we talked to Jamie Ruben

32:32

recently been American diplomats and separate from

32:34

the podcast he was telling me some

32:36

be very very similar stories about how

32:38

this this woke soldier goes way way

32:40

deeper in America that it does here

32:42

but yet we tend to follow American

32:44

so many ways. is like coming here

32:46

I think is coming here light so

32:49

we shouldn't be as alarms ruiz by

32:51

was hum in America. So. Angry.

32:53

So the academic freedom and correct. I'm

32:55

not as alarmed at what's going on

32:57

here as I am at what's going

33:00

on the states and was some quite

33:02

close to things and senses she's christians,

33:04

Muslims in the States And so no,

33:06

yes, there are challenges here. There certainly

33:09

are and isn't the more difficult engaging

33:11

in the classroom dialogue today than twenty

33:13

five years ago when I set up

33:15

against good mentions Michael Gove and his

33:18

introduction and goes recent definition of Extremism

33:20

would make of that debate it's unbelievably

33:22

devices. It's a shows how difficult it is

33:25

what may be extremists you is not for

33:27

me how difficult is to do that sorted

33:29

in the doing it. One of my fears

33:31

is they are weaponizing Islam, a phobia and

33:33

anti semitism for own political ends and that

33:35

it's become a become a wedge issue and

33:37

that in particular Mrs and she's had to

33:39

stop That must not allow that to happen.

33:41

And I do fear that with election coming

33:43

up in some ways having a Hindu prime

33:45

minister's wonderful and a person of color because

33:47

I hope that life as it's a bit

33:50

like by my also give cover for it.

33:52

it might have. Capita The thankfully the

33:54

Anderson left the party. right?

33:56

How much was it will be the somebody like

33:58

that stayed within the main. extreme politics.

34:01

So it's a really tricky one because, for example,

34:03

the government's decision to take funding away from the

34:05

Interfaith Network. 1987 it was founded, this body on

34:09

the ground trying to bring little communities

34:11

together. It's national, but it's like little

34:13

communities in Bristol, in the

34:15

north, in Bradford, wherever, around the whole of the UK.

34:18

The government promised about

34:20

150 grand, not pocket money, and

34:22

they would join it and it's about to close.

34:24

I mean, this is the sort of thing we should

34:26

be investing in, not just financially, but supporting. Roy,

34:28

can I just... Why did you make of Gove's

34:31

extremism initiative? Yeah, I'm very worried, and

34:33

maybe to be more explicit than Ed,

34:35

because Ed can be. I

34:38

think this relates to the fact that

34:40

you see again and again at PMQs,

34:42

Rishi Sunak leaning over and saying Jeremy

34:44

Corbyn and Kia Stama were

34:46

very close and you can see Stama's

34:49

body language a bit uncomfortable. And I'm

34:51

worried, with the conservatives behind in the

34:53

polls going into an election, they're desperately

34:55

trying to define the Labour Party as

34:58

being Jeremy Corbyn's anti-Semitic party and trying

35:00

to mobilize a group which Lee Anderson

35:02

was speaking for who think there's some

35:04

existential fight against Islam at stake. And

35:07

they're going to try to challenge Labour

35:09

to either take them on on this

35:12

or even more dangerous to my point of view that

35:14

Labour gets pulled onto their side because they don't want

35:16

to get into that discussion. That's

35:19

very Gove-ian. But the responses, I think,

35:21

that I'm very, very worried that we're

35:24

going to end up demonizing Muslims. I

35:26

want to pick up your point about

35:28

demonizing Muslims because I think there are

35:30

some encouraging signs. We're having this conversation

35:32

during Ramadan, about two weeks in, a

35:34

bit less. And what I've noticed is

35:36

although the number of Iftars that are

35:38

being hosted by churches and synagogues have

35:40

declined, they're still happening. That's really encouraging

35:42

because that's the kind of solidarity. It's

35:44

about crossing a threshold. It's why I

35:46

take my students into a mosque. Cross

35:48

that threshold. It's not as you might think

35:51

it is And the Synagogue. So

35:53

There are these little positive signs. And

35:55

I Think sometimes we underestimate how well

35:57

we do multiculturalism and multi-faith. Get

36:00

a criticizing ourselves rightly and there's a lot

36:02

to criticize why they wouldn't with their what

36:05

noisy that is what a Brockman is.

36:07

Ah the hotels a multi soon as you

36:09

said module from and working. As far as

36:11

I'm concerned I say absolutely loudly and

36:13

proudly Multiculturalism is a success. I'm on Arsenal

36:15

supporters he said before the site my sunspots

36:18

never pull her when most hello scores

36:20

and frustrates on the ground. As a Muslim,

36:22

what to look for, supports his chance

36:24

if he scores as you are become a

36:26

Muslim To is great and. Very

36:29

different from what I was brought up with

36:31

when I went to the Arsenal. right there.

36:33

So many things that mention that recipients Prime

36:35

Minister, you look at the different celebrities of

36:38

different faiths, different cultures. We are now a

36:40

multicultural society. Back to Nineteen Sixty One in

36:42

One Hundred and Sixty People will not Christian

36:44

that they say it's you. Now.

36:47

Is one in ten? British?

36:49

One Intense. We are all

36:51

minorities. I think that's incredibly

36:53

liberating that we're all minorities.

36:55

Because you don't have a majority culture the

36:58

console the minority culture from as I suspected

37:00

this is how to do it to. Just

37:02

say recently not of Roger I'm sure is

37:04

some nut. Absolutely massive Christian our hearts the

37:07

lives are Christian values everyday life that he

37:09

recently slydial feals reserve the contrary when his

37:11

his money going to understand mirror christian country

37:13

was when is the Oscars country not criticizing

37:16

the government? There's something about the road of

37:18

the auspicious hands free to hold out saloon

37:20

how the government and others he was a

37:22

weaponizing christianity as well. Not yet but there's

37:25

always been criticism. Maggie Thatcher criticize the Oscars

37:27

can't often. One is that since oh that's

37:29

not a new phenomenon, disease and new phenomena

37:31

but they but the weaponizing of christianity as

37:33

a minority religion. I think the weaponizing for

37:36

senate see less of a minority religion but

37:38

being persecuted. So it's when christians have been

37:40

persecuted you know insist on or you bring

37:42

in other parts the well with the on

37:44

sufficient cares about Muslim I was Rosnano think

37:47

you're right as says one of the conceptual

37:49

things which presumably Michael Dead is getting. His

37:52

decided somehow by talking to extremists

37:54

that in my some my question to

37:56

is how do you get that balance

37:58

right Because wheels. So yeah, how does

38:01

his friend Jonathan Powell say, ultimately,

38:03

you have to talk to terrorists, right, to bring

38:05

peace. So how do you understand, right, between people

38:07

who say, you've got to talk to the extremists

38:09

and people who say, you mustn't talk to them?

38:11

You need wiggle room. I personally

38:13

have wiggle room. I'm just an academic, I'm

38:16

a teacher, I'm a leader in interfaith.

38:18

I can meet pretty much anybody. Have

38:21

you met Hannes? I've met lots

38:23

of problematic people in Doha. Right. I've

38:26

met people who I fundamentally disagree with, whose

38:29

views may be, I don't know,

38:31

homophobic, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic, whatever. I will

38:33

meet anybody as long as I

38:35

don't feel threatened. But I

38:37

have that wiggle room that perhaps politicians don't have

38:39

so much. They have to use conduits. But yes,

38:42

everyone has to make up their own mind who

38:44

they can and can't meet. But is it smart

38:46

of governments not to engage? I would have thought

38:48

actually, governments need to have the wiggle

38:50

room. They need to be, to say, this is a

38:53

list of people we won't talk to when they're citizens

38:55

from your own country. Whether they're

38:57

Islamists, or they're even the far right. I

38:59

mean, obviously, you know, somebody like me is

39:01

very worried about the far right, but I

39:03

suppose my instinct would be, you need to

39:05

be able to probably talk to Tommy Robinson

39:07

as well. You need to be a- Stephen

39:09

Yax-Lennon. Stephen Yax-Lennon. That's a good one by

39:11

his real name. Whether the government sit down

39:13

officially, publicly, and talk to them is one

39:15

thing, but they should certainly be understanding where

39:17

they're coming from and have people who are

39:19

talking to them, right? The foolishness is pretend that

39:22

you can't talk to anybody. I mean, you know,

39:24

boy cards. I'm really not a

39:26

fan of that. I'm a fan of building relationships, as

39:28

you can tell. And that means talking to people who

39:30

you fundamentally disagree with. You would

39:32

be alarmed at the moment if there wasn't,

39:35

however, securitously, some kind of direct contact going

39:37

on between Hamas and the Israeli government. There

39:39

is. Right. I know where there is. Yeah,

39:41

and it would be a terrible mistake on both sides if there

39:43

wasn't. There has to be. It was

39:45

interesting you mentioned Qatar, as when you were talking about

39:48

who might put this together, because a few years ago,

39:50

I'm sure we would have said the United States is

39:52

probably the only broker that could maybe do this, but

39:54

you think Qatar takes the lead here. The US has

39:56

always been criticized for not being a balanced player, but

39:59

particularly under Trump. but not only has been

40:01

seen more and more as simply a supporter of

40:03

Israel and a defender of Israel. Now

40:05

of course Qatar is probably more aligned for

40:07

Palestinian cause. It certainly funds Hamas in the

40:09

strip and Gaza strip. It's very good at

40:11

looking two ways at the same time. And

40:14

again it's important a peace process. It is, it

40:16

is. So it won't be any one state, it

40:18

would be a combination of states. But I do

40:20

worry if there's one thing I worry about is

40:22

with the possible election of Donald Trump for a

40:25

second term in terms of what the impact will

40:27

be in that part of the world because it

40:29

could well lead to the end of one

40:31

or two countries. One thing that I

40:33

keep coming back to is Jewish friends of

40:35

mine, close friends of mine, angry with me

40:38

listening to the podcast because they think I

40:40

spent too much time talking about Gaza and

40:42

they think that that is fueling anti-Semitism

40:44

and that I'm failing to express enough

40:46

sympathy on anti-Semitism. They're very,

40:49

very powerful reason autocollary in the Atlantic

40:51

on anti-Semitism in the US and of course they

40:53

have the deal who's interviewed talk a lot about

40:55

this. Only Jews

40:57

saying there's absolutely no need

41:00

to draw any connection at all between what

41:02

Israel is doing in Gaza. And

41:04

I do notice that the video often says that I don't know

41:06

anything about Israel and not interested in Israel and I'm

41:08

talking about Israel and talking about Jews and

41:11

that. And that is Jesus. Nonetheless, those

41:14

things do seem to be more complicatedly

41:16

related at the moment. Do you have

41:18

any sense of what advice you

41:20

can give to me and us

41:23

or indeed actually to a responsible

41:25

politician today on how you find

41:27

the language to say what Israel

41:29

is doing in Gaza is cruel

41:31

and a catastrophic mistake and it's

41:33

not going to eliminate Hamas and

41:35

it's going to cause horrifying problems

41:37

for Israel and the targeting is

41:39

no good because of suffering and

41:41

Hamas conducted extreme and appalling atrocities

41:44

and the anti-Semitism and the Islamophobia that somehow makes

41:46

sense of this in a way that doesn't sound

41:48

like you're not listening to anyone? Well, I can't

41:50

do it in a soundbite and it is all

41:52

the ends that you put together. And

41:55

the problem is not just the however many

41:57

digits there are for a tweet nowadays. people

42:00

want things done very, very quickly, and

42:02

they want things summarized very, very easily and it

42:04

ain't possible. So when I'm pushed something like that,

42:07

can you explain it simply? I'm sorry to say

42:09

the answer is no, I can't. Give

42:11

me a bit of your time and I'll

42:13

explain it and I'll go through it with

42:15

you. And I think to have the courage

42:17

to say that rather than simply come up

42:19

with something that is a platitude or something

42:22

that is so short that of course it

42:24

leaves something out. So the bottom line is

42:26

it's incredibly complicated and that doesn't mean that

42:28

you ignore the terrible suffering of Palestinians and

42:30

you ignore the dehumanizing language that politicians,

42:32

particularly in that part of the world,

42:34

seem to adopt so easily. The calamitous

42:36

regime and the government of Netanyahu's calamitous,

42:38

it seems not just for me, my

42:40

view, not just for Palestinians and particularly

42:42

in Gaza right now, but for the

42:44

state of Israel. That's my personal view.

42:47

But you have to get a sense

42:49

of the complexity of it and you

42:51

do that with a little bit of

42:53

having a relationship, right? Having built up a

42:56

little bit of trust. If I go into

42:58

a room with a group of Muslims, the

43:00

first thing I do is not talk about Israel Palestine.

43:03

I talk about what we have in common and

43:05

then talk about difficult things. Maybe going to theology

43:07

of land, why is Mecca and Medina holy? What's

43:09

special about Jerusalem? Begin to get there. You

43:12

don't go there straight away. And

43:14

unfortunately in politics, I don't know, I can

43:17

ask you this question. Everything seems to be

43:19

transactional. You know, I give you this, you

43:21

give me that. But

43:24

in religion and dialogue, that's not the case.

43:26

It's not transaction. It's relationship based and it's

43:28

different, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, listen, I

43:30

agree with you. I think the world is

43:32

crying out for politicians who are able to

43:34

say this is really complicated,

43:36

but then demand the time of be

43:38

it an interviewer or the public, demand

43:40

the time to be able to explain

43:42

a bit of the history, explain some

43:45

of the choices and some of the

43:47

complexities. I'm not sure that

43:49

it's all transactional. I do think that the

43:51

combination of a different form of political communication

43:53

allied to social media and the pressures

43:55

that brings to the debate have

43:58

made it a lot harder to do. still

44:00

think that good politicians have the capacity to

44:02

set this agenda. I wish some of them

44:04

would make longer and deeper speeches about this.

44:06

It'd be fair if Biden has actually. One

44:08

of the things that you do notice in

44:10

the States is the generational split as

44:12

far as Israel's concerned. So the Biden

44:14

generation is much more aware of that

44:16

history of Israel, the vulnerability of Israel

44:19

in its early years, supporting Israel, it

44:21

being bipartisan, you know, and then the

44:23

next generation, perhaps our generation, sort of

44:25

much more aware of the complexity Israel

44:27

as a power less vulnerable than it

44:29

was and the difficulty relationship with Palestinians.

44:31

And then you have our kids generation who

44:33

just can't understand. No, nothing other than Israeli

44:35

occupation of the West Bank. And

44:37

Israel still in many ways, the government

44:39

of Israel and the people of Israel

44:41

still see themselves as a minority.

44:44

And I get that because they're surrounded by a

44:46

majority member Prince Hassan of Jordan saying to me

44:49

when he met Shimon Peres, Mr. Peres, your Highness,

44:51

you don't have to have got it is for

44:53

us Israelis we're surrounded by enemies who want to

44:55

throw us into the sea. And

44:57

C.D. Hassan said, I understand, Mr. Peres,

45:00

but you don't know how lucky you are. You are surrounded by

45:02

enemies. But I'm surrounded by friends. It's

45:06

not easy, right? It's not an easy neighborhood.

45:08

I think Harry Ahmed and the House of

45:10

Lords gets right because he's got special responsibility

45:12

for the sacred sites in Jerusalem. He gets

45:14

the complexity of it. And that's really important.

45:17

You talked about this concept of

45:19

the transfer of conflict. What do you mean

45:21

by that? What are you trying to get at?

45:23

I'm trying to get at the fact that now

45:25

that we are such a multicultural society, when something

45:27

happens in India, there could be riots in Leicester,

45:30

as there were in 2022 between Hindus

45:32

and Muslims. Driven from India. Driven from

45:35

India. The war in Gaza

45:37

has driven the anti-Semitism Islamophobia

45:39

we see today. Back

45:41

when there was the Rushdie affair in

45:43

1992, or the destruction of the mosque

45:46

in Iota in India the same year,

45:48

there weren't riots here. There were riots

45:50

about anger in the Muslim community about

45:52

the Satanic verses. Don't get me wrong,

45:54

but in terms of interfaith pressures, there

45:57

weren't. That's happening now. Things transfer so

45:59

quickly. from one place to the other.

46:01

It could be Gaza, it could be Karachi, it

46:03

could be anywhere, it could be Washington. And it's

46:05

a real challenge for us in the political sphere

46:08

but also in the religious sphere because suddenly you're

46:10

under pressure because of what somebody said. We'll do

46:12

a group of that though. You try and say

46:14

stop, you try and breathe,

46:16

you try and say this is not as

46:18

simple as you think. Again, it's... Complacency. Yeah.

46:21

Can I finish with a said? What I'm not seeing

46:24

at the moment from any of the major political

46:26

leaders are people saying our

46:28

priority now is to bring communities

46:30

together. What I'm seeing is people

46:32

condemning, condemning extremism, condemning

46:36

marches, condemning attacks. What

46:38

I'd like to see is people saying

46:41

actually we are facing a serious threat

46:43

of inter-communal tensions and violence and that

46:45

my political priority is to actually ease

46:47

that. I'd like to see the same

46:49

but I'd also like to say on the

46:51

ground there are some really good things happening.

46:53

There are synagogues and churches holding Iftar's example.

46:56

Research of the Wolf Institute has shown

46:58

very recently that the effective dialogue starts

47:00

from the bottom up. It

47:03

may be that you meet the Pope or

47:05

the Grand Mufti or the Chief Rabbi, that's

47:07

a nice photo opportunity moment but actually the

47:09

change comes from the ground, from

47:11

street relations. And there are a lot

47:14

of problematic things happening but there are some good

47:16

things happening. So again, I hang on to a

47:18

sense of optimism about what might be. I would

47:20

love our political leaders to say,

47:23

you know, that to bring our communities

47:25

together and mean it. I'd like them

47:27

to invest in that. There are many,

47:29

many good politicians who are going out

47:31

there within our communities who understand the

47:33

local community. The constituencies help that. It

47:35

fosters that. We don't have a constituency

47:37

system, for example, in Israel. It's just

47:39

national or in the States. It's so

47:41

big. But yeah, there are some good

47:43

things happening here. My last question is going

47:45

to contain a couple of fastballs. So Rory

47:48

mentioned that you're chair of the Commission on

47:50

the Integration of Refugees. I'd like

47:52

your take on the current attitudes

47:54

to refugees in our politics and more

47:57

broadly in the country. The

48:00

second word just outside the off stump, faith

48:03

schools, where you are on that. I'm

48:05

not a fan. Okay. So

48:08

the Commission on the Integration of

48:10

Refugees recently issued its report with

48:12

16 recommendations, 14

48:14

of which were unanimous. Now this

48:16

commission is 22 people, both left wing

48:18

and right wing. We have Tory, we

48:21

have Labour, we have policy exchange, we

48:23

have refugees, we have faith leaders, we

48:25

have people who do not agree with

48:27

each other like Brenda Hale, Lady Hale

48:29

and David Gutthart. They sit on the

48:31

same commission, they agree the system is

48:33

broken and they say what can we

48:35

do to fix it. We've published a

48:37

series of recommendations that have been costed,

48:39

are evidence based with hearings all around

48:41

the country. And actually there's such good

48:43

practice that's going on. Again, it's actually

48:45

acknowledging what is working well. For example, homes

48:47

for Ukraine, there are 150,000 or so Ukrainians here,

48:49

73,000 are in

48:52

people's homes. That's remarkable. It's not about taking somebody's

48:54

home away from somebody else. And of course living

48:56

in somebody's home means that you're going to integrate

48:59

more quickly. One of our recommendations

49:01

was that people should be able to access

49:03

work from six months. At the moment, you

49:05

can't work at least until 12 months and

49:08

then only on the job shortage occupation list.

49:10

It's bringing people together across these boundaries, having

49:12

a serious and forgive me adult

49:14

conversation with people who disagree

49:16

with each other but want the asylum system

49:18

to work and doing it with people who

49:21

spend time with refugees around the country. It's

49:23

remarkable what consensus has been achieved on a

49:25

very difficult topic. So is this Rwanda debate

49:27

just kind of going on over there and

49:29

it's got nothing to do with what you've

49:31

been talking about? First of all, the Rwanda

49:33

debate is ongoing. And even when it becomes

49:35

law or has become law, it's going to

49:37

go through a various court of appeal. Whatever

49:40

happens, there will be refugees. We can't

49:42

stop refugees, whether it's a Ukraine scheme

49:44

or Hong Kongers or others, we

49:47

need better ways to integrate them into

49:49

our society. At the moment, the average

49:51

excluding the special cases of the 20,000

49:53

Afghans and so on is about

49:55

50,000 a year. Yeah, no, let's be

49:57

honest, we're not going to stop the boats. we've

50:00

got to do is have proper safe and

50:02

legal passage. That's a different subject outside the

50:04

Commission, but we have to integrate it better.

50:07

And these recommendations, as I say, are cross-party.

50:09

You know, it's a real example of what

50:11

can be achieved in faith schools. A

50:14

few years ago, I was Vice Chair,

50:16

thankfully, not Chair, of a Commission on Religion

50:19

and Belief. There are some excellent faith schools,

50:21

right? In fact, the majority of faith schools

50:23

are probably excellent, right? But we

50:25

made a statement that the children coming out

50:27

of faith schools should have some encounter with

50:29

an understanding of others, whether

50:32

it's a 20% number, a percentage

50:34

within a faith school, or something like

50:36

that. At that time, the Cardinal of

50:38

Westminster and the Chief Rabbi sent me

50:40

separate letters that had obviously got together

50:42

condemning that recommendation. And it was a

50:44

wonderful example of Jewish-Christ relations in action,

50:46

but not quite the type I had

50:49

hoped for. Personally, as long

50:51

as faith schools ensure their children

50:53

don't just learn about another faith,

50:55

but their children engage with children

50:57

of other faiths, ideally in the

50:59

same school, then I'm absolutely for

51:01

them. I'm not in favour of 100% based

51:04

faith schools whose graduates do not

51:06

engage with and do not understand

51:08

and do not encounter children

51:10

of other faiths. Amen to that. Thank

51:13

you so much, Khatan. It's been a real

51:15

privilege. Thank you. Thanks very much. Really enjoyed

51:17

it. Pleasure. We

51:21

often talk about guests out there, and

51:23

obviously we love to get serving politicians

51:25

or senior ex-politicians. But it's also good

51:27

to remember that politics in any country

51:29

isn't just about the elected people. It's

51:32

about people who are really engaged communities,

51:34

who are chairing commissions in a sense

51:36

of case on refugees, who are trying

51:38

to provide some of the kind of,

51:41

I guess some of the leadership outside of parliament. Anyway,

51:43

what do you reckon? I thought

51:45

he was great. I mean, I like his passion.

51:47

I like his knowledge. I like the fact he's

51:49

very clear, he explains things, and he's not afraid

51:51

of saying what he thinks. He

51:54

clearly is not a fan of Netanyahu. Clearly

51:57

is not a fan of some of the things this

51:59

government has been doing in relation to

52:01

refugees or in relation to this definition

52:04

of extremism stuff. What I

52:06

liked about him was that he's essentially saying,

52:08

unless you have whatever is happening at the

52:10

top level of politicians shouting at each other

52:12

and people killing each other, which is horrific,

52:15

you have to have this other stuff going

52:17

on. He thinks I'm a bit hung up

52:19

on process, but his dialogue is the process

52:21

in a way. That has to lead somewhere.

52:24

You need people like him. I was hopeful

52:26

that when you said, have you

52:28

met people from Hamas? And

52:30

quite clearly the answer is yes. You need that.

52:33

You need people who are doing that. Listen

52:35

to this just quickly. Any reflections on echoes

52:37

of Northern Ireland and community and

52:39

faith groups engaging there? Oh yeah, absolutely.

52:41

Oh look, very, very hard to imagine

52:43

how it's happening in the

52:46

wake of, as he says, horrific

52:48

events of October the 7th and the

52:50

horrific action inside Gaza since. So both

52:52

sides very, very polarized. But there were

52:55

definitely moments when there was utter polarization

52:57

and very publicly expressed hatreds when

53:00

there would be people in and

53:03

around all of those events

53:05

still talking to each other. I think

53:07

some of the women's group stuff was amazing, that they

53:09

just kept going with trying to build

53:11

bridges across the divide. Now I don't know

53:13

how much of that's going on. We see

53:15

the top level stuff most of the time,

53:17

don't we? That's the point he was making,

53:19

the sort of people we talked to about

53:21

this, the people in politics where it's very,

53:23

very difficult at the moment. But you know, you

53:26

need people like that who

53:28

will be useful at certain

53:31

stages to politicians who are trying to get

53:33

this thing done. You presumably thought a

53:35

lot about this after 9-11. I mean the

53:37

question of community relations and how to reach

53:39

out to Muslim communities and how

53:41

to deal with extremists and how to create

53:43

better. I mean, any lessons you took from that?

53:46

What were the challenges, what are the things you

53:48

remember most in that period? I remember that we

53:51

essentially asked Tessa Jowel, RIP,

53:55

to focus on nothing else pretty much for quite

53:57

a while. And was she good at it? Very

53:59

good, yeah. And what made her good

54:01

at it? What made her a good choice? Very interestingly,

54:03

exactly what Ed was saying, very good

54:05

at listening to people and

54:07

very good at giving a sense of understanding

54:10

other people's story and bringing people

54:12

together. And the other thing

54:14

that I remember on 9-11 itself, coming

54:17

back from Brighton where Tony had been making

54:19

this speech to the TUC and having this

54:21

sort of huge meeting with the whole kind

54:23

of everybody, it was police, security services, military,

54:25

the whole thing. And one of

54:27

the first things on the agenda being

54:30

extra security around Jewish

54:32

sites and Jewish areas, but also an

54:35

understanding that there would

54:37

have to be proper protection

54:40

of Muslim communities as well.

54:42

So seeing it as a combination of

54:44

policing and that kind of

54:46

community dialogue. And it's interesting, I think the

54:49

organisation that he mentioned whose funding was being

54:51

cut, I've got a feeling that that was

54:53

one of Tony Blair's things, he

54:56

drove that quite hard, because Tony's obsessed with this

54:58

interfaith stuff, he sees it as the key to

55:01

solving a lot of the problems of the world. Finally,

55:03

do you think it's helpful that

55:05

we now have a far more diverse

55:07

group of political leaders? I mean, we're

55:10

doing so just in the week in which we now

55:12

have a political leader in Wales,

55:14

we've got a Muslim political leader in Scotland,

55:17

we've got a Hindu political leader in the

55:19

United Kingdom. Do you think that that helps,

55:21

that it means that we now have a

55:23

generation that's got more empathy, more understanding of

55:26

these things? Well, I hope so. I hope

55:28

so. But I do worry, you

55:30

know, you made the point about and Ed made

55:32

the point about how she's being weaponised. And I

55:34

do think Michael Gove was up to quite Michael

55:37

Gove tricks last week. And I worry that Rishi

55:39

Sunak is enabling and empowering this.

55:41

So yes, on the surface, I

55:43

think it's fantastic. I really believe

55:45

that multiculturalism is a British success

55:47

story. But it's quite odd to

55:49

have this British Hindu Prime Minister

55:51

and Suela Braverman, former Home Secretary,

55:54

essentially running this line that multiculturalism has

55:56

failed. I find that very,

55:58

very odd and quite troubling. Well, thank you.

56:00

Capture,paradec