0:02

This

0:02

is an ABC podcast.

0:07

Hello from Wurundjeri country. This is

0:09

Life Matters. I'm Beverly Wang and reading

0:12

all the Prince Harry headlines ahead

0:15

of King Charles's coronation has

0:17

got us thinking about awkward

0:19

family reunions. We

0:22

may not be hereditary peers,

0:24

but we plebs, we normies, we

0:26

know a thing or two about those. How

0:28

do you manage fraught and frosty family

0:31

relations? Let's talk.

0:36

So imagine you have

0:38

written a tell-all book

0:41

describing all the rivalry, backstabbing,

0:44

and betrayals of your very famous, powerful,

0:46

and deeply traditional family. You've

0:49

named names, shared secrets, and done major

0:52

television interviews to air your

0:54

grievances, and your family

0:57

does not like to talk about

0:59

their business in public. No. Now

1:02

you have to see them again for a very

1:04

important event, and the world

1:06

is watching. Yikes. Huge

1:09

yikes. Those are the stakes for possibly

1:12

the most awkward family reunion

1:15

of all time when Prince Harry

1:17

attends the coronation of his father,

1:19

King Charles, and sees his

1:22

royal relatives for the first time

1:24

since his tell-all memoir, Spare,

1:26

was released. Now we

1:29

may not be royals, but we can

1:31

all relate to that feeling of dread

1:34

and anxiety when meeting

1:37

up with family members who you

1:39

are on rocky ground with. I

1:42

would love to hear from you. What's

1:44

your awkward family reunion

1:46

story, and how did you get through it? Did

1:49

you go in with a plan for avoiding clashes

1:51

or awkward moments? Are you planning

1:54

a family gathering and would like some

1:56

advice? Now just a note, you

1:58

can use a different name if you'd like.

1:59

feel more comfortable doing so. And

2:02

you don't have to reveal the specifics

2:04

of your family conflict. That's not what we're after.

2:06

We're focusing more on coping strategies,

2:09

not the conflict itself, unless you think it's relevant

2:11

and you feel comfortable sharing. And look,

2:14

if you have some advice for Harry, we

2:16

could all use it too. Please share.

2:19

Happy to hear that as well. We're all ears.

2:21

I am with Tamara Kavanate. Tamara

2:24

is a clinical psychologist who's helped guide

2:26

many families through difficult situations.

2:29

Tamara, welcome back to Life Matters.

2:31

Thanks so much for having me, Beverly. Now let's

2:33

talk about that case study that

2:36

I pinpointed as our inspiration

2:38

for this topic, a family reunion

2:41

of the awkward, the frosty, the fraught.

2:45

If Harry was to come to

2:47

you

2:48

looking for a little advice on how to get through

2:50

what is possibly the

2:53

most awkward reunion,

2:55

what would you say to him? The

2:57

first thing I'd say is have a plan because

3:00

he's going to need one because having

3:02

something that's that public, that

3:05

out there, and I guess watched and

3:08

analyzed over by millions is always

3:10

tricky. And though he'd be used to that, you

3:12

know, this would be one of those moments where

3:14

you'd really want to go in there knowing

3:17

how you're going to handle some of the tricky

3:19

times with those family members when things

3:21

get raised.

3:22

And having a plan is important

3:24

because in the moment we might kind of freeze.

3:29

Absolutely. You might freeze. Also, someone

3:32

might say something that just feels a little

3:34

bit overwhelming and you'll get flooded,

3:36

especially if it's something emotional. So

3:39

it's one of those moments where

3:41

you want to prepare for it. Think of your

3:43

worst case scenario and work out what

3:45

you're going to do so that you know in advance.

3:48

Okay, so if you were to help Harry,

3:50

if you want humor me,

3:52

if you were to help Harry work out what

3:54

his plan would be, what might you

3:56

be guiding him towards or suggesting?

3:58

So

4:01

you want to actually remember

4:04

that it is family, that everyone's family

4:06

is not perfect,

4:08

and that most people are trying to do

4:10

the best that they can. Often

4:12

families have been through a lot of different life

4:15

transitions, such as starting new families

4:17

of their own. And in those times,

4:20

things get tense, there's

4:23

a lot of changes. So trying to remember

4:25

the good times and

4:27

that the other person really cares about

4:29

you so that you go in with a good frame of mind,

4:32

and certainly thinking about what time

4:34

you're coming, what time you're leaving, whether

4:37

you want to meet up with

4:38

them in neutral grounds beforehand to

4:41

air some things. And

4:44

definitely an exit plan. So if

4:46

you get overwhelmed, what are you going to do? Yeah,

4:49

an exit plan. Leave that high T a

4:51

little early. Oh, I'm sorry, I can't make it to that

4:53

balcony photo off. I've got to

4:55

go. I've got a pressing Zoom meeting.

4:57

Now, tomorrow, nobody is perfect. If there have

5:00

been mistakes or wrongdoing on both

5:02

sides, we do need to be willing to have insight

5:04

into where we might have strained relations ourselves.

5:07

Is that important?

5:09

It definitely is. And I think there's,

5:12

you know, some really good communication

5:14

research looking at the fact

5:16

that if you can apologize early, even

5:18

if it's not for the whole thing, but just

5:21

for something that you did, so something

5:23

you could have done better. And if you can get in there with

5:25

that apology early, it can neutralize

5:28

some of the anger and the tenseness

5:31

in the air and it will allow the other person

5:33

to take a bit of a step in. This is

5:35

all great advice. So that's Tamara Kavanagh,

5:37

clinical psychologist, a gamely

5:39

and very sportingly giving a plan,

5:42

a suggested plan for Prince Harry as

5:44

he heads into his very awkward family

5:47

reunion, the coronation of his father, King Charles.

5:49

We've already got some texts. Someone's

5:52

using the very excellent name of Beverly.

5:54

What a beautiful name. And they say they've

5:56

moved interstate or overseas to

5:59

avoid family.

7:43

So

8:01

often there's conflict where someone

8:03

says something or does something

8:05

that's considered out of the norm for the

8:07

other and it causes a lot of tension.

8:09

So in-laws are a huge

8:11

issue. There's also, we've talked

8:14

a lot about the dynamics, but do we also

8:16

tend to behave a bit different

8:19

when we are talking to our family members

8:21

and dealing with our family members than we are

8:23

say with friends and colleagues? Do we perhaps

8:26

tend to hold back less, maybe have a little

8:28

bit less tolerance because there's history

8:31

there?

8:32

One thing that's really true with families

8:35

is we're really invested in the other person's

8:37

life. So we really care about

8:39

them. It's a high-stakes moment. So we tend

8:41

to get more emotionally

8:44

invested, but we'll also say things

8:46

that perhaps we wouldn't say to somebody else. We're

8:49

a little more cautious with friends about,

8:51

you know, what's appropriate to say and we don't

8:53

necessarily cross the boundaries. They're a little

8:55

stronger. Whereas in families, we

8:58

can really throw at people, especially

9:00

if they've hurt us, some of the things that we

9:02

know about them that can hurt them back.

9:05

So it is a different communication

9:08

and it's something to really think about because

9:10

you can be quite hurtful and some of those things

9:13

said they, you know, they aren't easily forgotten.

9:15

Words are extremely powerful and

9:18

we do have long memories. So knowing that

9:20

we have a tendency maybe to revert to

9:22

old dynamics with our siblings or our family when

9:24

we get in that situation or all those kind

9:27

of niggling resentments that have persisted

9:29

over the years are part of the

9:31

package in getting together with family.

9:34

What

9:35

can you do to be a bit

9:37

more conscious or what are some strategies or what's

9:39

the plan? You know, Harry has a plan. Let's

9:41

have a plan also of knowing

9:44

that there might be some trigger points and

9:46

actually trying your best

9:49

to be aware of that and kind

9:51

of move through that.

9:54

So definitely remember why you're going.

9:56

Why are you there? Remember that they

9:58

are, you know, family. that they're usually

10:00

trying to do their best. And often

10:03

there's another family member who wants to see it go

10:05

really well, who's really invested in the event.

10:08

And I think Christmas is a good example of that.

10:10

There's always someone who really wants

10:12

it to run smoothly. So try and remember

10:15

and just focus on getting

10:18

through this one event. The

10:20

other thing that I think can

10:22

be really helpful is to actually

10:24

set ground rules early. So if there's a

10:26

tricky topic that you know should

10:28

just be avoided, say it upfront.

10:31

Either communicate with the person before the event,

10:34

or when you walk in that door, just say,

10:36

hey, today let's not talk about,

10:38

you know, that issue from last time. Let's

10:41

focus on just having a really great time and I just

10:43

want to catch up on what life is like

10:45

for you these days. So just creating

10:48

that sense of avoid it.

10:50

And of course be sensitive to the

10:52

fact that this other person may

10:54

be hurt and maybe hurt as much as you are.

10:57

But that avoidance tomorrow, in

10:59

that moment, that important

11:01

moment, like a wedding or you know, important family

11:03

occasion, you might say let's talk about it later. But then

11:05

there's the follow-up, right? You can't be seen

11:07

to brush it off and then not come back to it. You actually

11:10

do have to come through on that promise

11:12

to talk about it later, don't you?

11:14

If you can, it's good because

11:16

it means that people can go, okay, so I

11:18

don't need to bring it up today. And there is

11:20

this other scheduled time and it's not gonna be completely

11:22

avoided.

11:23

So it is good if you can make it

11:25

really clear that you will follow up on that and

11:27

that you have a bit of a plan for when. It'll

11:30

allow people to just relax into that

11:32

moment, knowing it's coming and ease

11:34

some of the frustrations when they just have

11:36

some things they want to get out. Good

11:38

text coming in here Tamara with a

11:40

question. And the question is, aren't

11:42

these dynamics essentially products of

11:45

bad and poor parenting? What do you say

11:47

to that?

11:48

Look, I think

11:51

it's so much more trickier than

11:53

just putting any blame on

11:55

any one person. Sometimes it's

11:58

differences in what people value.

11:59

find important. Sometimes

12:02

it's ways of communication. It can

12:05

also be the level of hurt. We often

12:07

know for siblings or family members

12:09

what their touch points are and when they've hurt

12:12

us, we can use them. So it's

12:14

not necessarily all down to

12:16

parenting. Of course, I think parenting helps.

12:19

If you can teach your kids how to communicate,

12:21

how to manage conflict situations

12:24

really well and how to care for one another and really

12:27

develop that underlying relationship, all of that

12:29

stuff can be

12:29

good. But certainly

12:32

it's not all down to a parent. There's

12:35

more going on, isn't there? We've got a text from

12:37

Sarah with some advice. Thank you, Sarah, for

12:39

texting in. Sarah has said, step

12:41

out to a safe place for a few minutes as

12:44

often as you need or want. Have someone

12:46

you trust as a buffer armed with someone's

12:48

safe distraction topics and have

12:50

an escape plan. Easier to cope when

12:52

you have a known end time. Plan

12:54

for a debrief and decompress afterwards. Oh,

12:57

and wear something you feel comfortable and confident

13:00

in. Swish and slay,

13:02

my friends. I love that.

13:05

What a comprehensive plan coming in from Sarah. Anything

13:07

you want to add there tomorrow?

13:09

To be honest, that was amazing.

13:12

That, you know, absolutely true. So

13:14

if you're going to do a little

13:16

overwhelm exit moment,

13:19

get yourself in reset and order, I do

13:21

recommend that people use some distraction

13:24

in that moment because often you'll just ruminate

13:26

on what got said. So if you can,

13:28

it can be really helpful to sit

13:31

there in that bathroom and just use some distraction

13:34

so that your whole sympathetic nervous

13:36

system can reduce. And when you go

13:38

back in, you'll be less

13:39

likely to ignite. Having

13:42

a known end time is really important as well. And I

13:44

often find if you can come in big,

13:46

go hard and then go out quickly, that

13:48

often can be very good. You don't necessarily have to stay

13:50

there for four hours, but go in there for

13:53

an hour of power. And that can

13:55

be high value, high intensity,

13:57

low period of time. What do you think about that tomorrow?

13:59

I completely agree

14:02

and I think Sarah also said about

14:04

pre-planning some topics and that would be one

14:06

of my experiences would be to have

14:09

four or five topics up your sleeve that are

14:11

you know light and easy such

14:13

as... Gosh that weather?

14:15

Yes exactly. Don't talk about climate

14:17

change. Completely

14:20

so really think about those in advance so you've

14:22

got them in your pocket and you can divert conversation

14:25

when needed. That is why small talk

14:27

was invented. Let's go to Lorraine in

14:29

Shell Cove. Lorraine you seem to have

14:31

a bit of professional experience in this area. Tell us

14:33

about it.

14:35

Well I'm a family lawyer but

14:37

I do collaborative law now because

14:40

you know dealing with families in

14:42

conflict is not good to

14:44

be actually a party

14:46

to you know to

14:49

the acrimony and so you

14:51

try and keep that down but I'm also

14:54

a family dispute resolution practitioner

14:57

mediator and family group conference in

14:59

facilitator

15:00

but I'm also a member

15:02

of a family

15:04

and I'm currently in

15:06

a situation where I'm trying

15:08

to assist a family where

15:10

my older cousin and her

15:12

husband are both really at

15:14

a serious point in the end of their

15:16

lives and the family

15:18

are

15:20

in conflict. They're in Queensland.

15:22

I'm in New South Wales. So

15:25

right at this moment trying to bring the three

15:27

daughters together in a

15:30

teleconference to

15:31

organise

15:33

them well to

15:36

assist them facilitate them in

15:38

organising the final stages

15:40

of their parents' lives

15:43

and the one thing that I'm doing at the

15:45

moment is with all

15:47

of them because they've all wanted

15:49

to talk to me about each other as they look we've

15:51

got to stay focused on

15:54

what we're here for and we're here for

15:56

the making an impact.

15:59

the best

16:01

time possible for

16:03

the final stages of your

16:05

parents' lives. Lorraine,

16:08

in your experience, you must have many, many

16:10

strategies for keeping the temperature down

16:12

in very difficult situations.

16:16

How do you, you say you're trying to keep those

16:18

sisters on track, not to focus

16:20

on their differences but to focus on their common goal.

16:22

How do you, what have you found over the years

16:25

in your practice helps family

16:27

members who may be in conflict to

16:29

focus on that? Because that is the core, isn't it? That's

16:32

what's important. How do you keep

16:33

that temperature down? What

16:36

I do right at the outset is

16:39

to get them to talk

16:41

to me about

16:42

the, when it's children,

16:45

for example,

16:47

have photographs of the children, get

16:49

them before they even can talk about

16:51

the conflict to actually, and in

16:53

this case, the parents, talk

16:56

to me about

16:58

what they love about their parents.

17:01

And they will share that.

17:03

They'll share stories about

17:05

things that their children or their parents

17:08

have done that are really

17:12

something that

17:13

causes them to feel that

17:15

kindness and love in their heart. And

17:17

they share that.

17:19

And once you get to

17:21

that, you can, you've moved the mind

17:24

from that

17:26

fight or flight type of place

17:29

into more,

17:31

a gentler kind

17:33

of mindset that

17:35

they can share in a

17:37

better way. And then say, well,

17:39

what now can we do today

17:43

to prepare, to make sure

17:45

that

17:46

the future is going

17:48

to be the best that it can be? That's

17:50

some great advice, Lorraine. That's your professional

17:53

hat on. But when it comes to managing conflict

17:55

in your own family and perhaps

17:58

some awkward meeting.

19:54

In

20:00

this case, obviously it was what

20:02

they want for their parents. And

20:04

I think that can be really useful. If you can

20:07

sit there with your family members and just remember

20:10

some of the things that you all center on and not

20:12

focus on the differences, it can remind

20:14

you of

20:15

all the things that they've done, those

20:17

good memories, some of the things that have really shared

20:19

the times they've been there. I think we can get caught

20:22

up in single moments of hurt

20:25

and forget about some of the other stuff. And I think

20:27

those are really useful strategies. Yes.

20:30

Just kicking off the back of that call from Lorraine

20:32

Braun in New South Wales, listening

20:35

in probably can relate. They texted in, care

20:37

of aging parents is often a minefield

20:39

for a sister. Certainly seems to be a common

20:42

experience. Thank you for texting in. Another textor

20:44

says, hey, Beverly,

20:45

I'm one of 10 kids. We are of differing

20:48

political and social persuasions. We

20:50

have a couple of antagonists. And many

20:52

of our gatherings result in someone getting

20:55

upset, offended, or outraged,

20:57

or getting their knickers in a twist. We

20:59

manage these as best we can.

21:02

I'd love to know, maybe in a follow-up text,

21:04

how you manage those as best

21:06

you can. I feel like, aside from perhaps 10

21:09

kids in the family, that is a very common

21:11

experience. Politics, social

21:14

persuasions, all

21:15

of these things that make us who we are

21:17

and that we feel like we need

21:20

to give voice to in order to be

21:22

who we are in the world can often lead to

21:24

these family conflicts, can't they, tomorrow?

21:27

How do you, I suppose,

21:29

still feel like you can be yourself

21:32

in these interactions? Without

21:35

necessarily, I

21:36

suppose, sometimes there are

21:39

some situations where you can't necessarily

21:42

be your entire self.

21:44

And I know that doesn't sound great, but are

21:46

there moments where it is actually OK

21:49

to hold back without giving

21:51

up a part of who you are?

21:54

Definitely. I think if you

21:56

concentrate on the things that you value

21:58

and that can be, you know. a good relationship

22:01

with your family members or, you

22:03

know, getting to watch them live their lives

22:05

and be able to share in that a little bit.

22:08

It can mean that you put aside some

22:10

things that are very important to you. And

22:12

to do that doesn't necessarily mean that

22:14

you don't value them, you're just choosing a different

22:17

value in that moment. And that can be a

22:19

really useful way of not feeling like

22:21

you're completely

22:24

disingenuous or not

22:26

true to yourself and what you believe. And

22:29

that would be one of those times when I'd really

22:31

say, look at your values, realize sometimes

22:33

they conflict, and it's okay to

22:36

choose a different value in that moment.

22:38

And that may be holding some things back.

22:41

Tamara, I'd love to get your thoughts

22:44

on this next text from Danielle, who

22:46

says, they love this topic, but I have an issue

22:48

where I just cannot come face to face with

22:50

a family member who caused me some serious

22:53

trauma.

22:54

If they were at a family event, I would not be

22:56

able to stay, even if it was hurtful to other

22:58

family members. I think we need to acknowledge

23:00

that in some cases, the damage cannot be put

23:02

to one side. Don't make the victim feel

23:05

guilty for not being able to brush it temporarily

23:07

aside. Danielle, thank you. And sorry

23:09

that you're going through this situation. Tamara,

23:12

you know, some, you know, some bridges, you

23:14

know, you can't kind of cross them. What do you say

23:17

to those difficult moments? And maybe

23:19

how do you make it clear to other family members

23:21

who may not understand what has happened

23:23

and the trauma?

23:24

How do you make it clear that that is not a safe place

23:26

for you?

23:28

Look, it's one of the trickiest ones, especially

23:30

if you don't necessarily want to disclose everything

23:32

that happened or if the other people don't

23:34

agree with your decision. And

23:37

often in families, there's multiple

23:39

traumas from different people in

23:41

different ways. And they're all related

23:44

to each other. So it definitely

23:46

absolutely I would support anyone who feels

23:49

that they can't actually meet up and put things

23:51

aside that way. And that that

23:53

should be okay. And try to explain

23:55

to family members that it's not because

23:58

you don't care and not because you're not willing

23:59

to meet up with those other family

24:02

members in different ways, but just that you can't

24:04

attend that for your own health and that

24:06

you would hope that they would support your

24:09

wellbeing in that moment and set

24:11

up another alternative time to see

24:14

those family members or to celebrate an event

24:16

and make sure they still know that they're important

24:19

to you. Just you can't

24:21

quite celebrate things in the way you used

24:23

to.

24:24

Got a text from someone

24:26

who said, we take it interns keeping the drunk

24:29

racist uncle distracted, spread the

24:31

load and everyone can still have a good

24:33

time. Well, that's teamwork for you. Good

24:35

job. That's part of making a plan

24:37

where you can really take

24:40

one for the whole team and humor

24:42

the racist drunk uncle. Commiserations

24:45

to you, but also good

24:47

for you. Does the context

24:51

actually matter? The event or the gathering?

24:53

Can that change the

24:54

dynamics of people interact if you're gathering up

24:56

in the house where you grew up, for

24:58

example?

25:00

It definitely can. Neutral ground

25:03

is often good. Also thinking

25:05

about situations where exit

25:07

is easily done. So, mutual ground allows

25:11

for that. If you meet

25:14

at a mutual place, a cafe

25:16

or something like that, you can more easily exit

25:18

and dictate the time that you leave. It

25:20

can often feel a little bit more trapped

25:23

in certain locations. Also,

25:26

sometimes there's things

25:27

that cause friction. So, someone

25:29

taking on the majority of the workload,

25:31

say at Christmas. So, finding

25:34

ways to take out some of the easy barriers.

25:37

I like what the other person said, don't

25:39

try and fix Uncle Joe. Teamwork

25:43

can work. So, having two or three people

25:46

who are designed to deflect conversation,

25:49

that can help as well. Or who will

25:51

provide a little bit of a buffer. So, do you think

25:53

about exactly where you do things and how?

25:56

Got another text coming in. The text line

25:58

is hot today.

25:59

But Brenda has written in to say, nobody

26:02

born or new is welcome in our family

26:04

unless they agree with the pontificating dominant

26:07

elderly male now in his tenth decade

26:09

and still in control of all the mismanaged property

26:12

that he acquired by marrying our mother.

26:15

Wow. In-laws and grandchildren are aware because who

26:18

wants different perspectives? To avoid conflict

26:20

with acolytes when visiting, I spend

26:22

a lot of time outdoors. But

26:24

that gives everyone else an excuse to leave

26:27

me out of the important decisions, including about

26:29

parental

26:29

care. And so the question is, excuse

26:33

me, what does your guest advise when

26:35

other family members repeatedly refuse to

26:37

deal with any with significant conflict

26:39

ever or even to apologize? Excuse

26:41

me.

26:43

Look, it's really tricky

26:45

when people won't apologize because

26:48

it often takes a lot of the heat out of the moment,

26:50

even if they could acknowledge some

26:52

level of wrongdoing. So

26:54

I commiserate with anyone who

26:56

can't get that little simple apology that

26:59

might make things a bit easier. It's

27:01

really tricky to find a way to communicate

27:04

with people that will allow you

27:06

not necessarily to end up in more conflict

27:09

and not always are people ready to hear what you

27:11

can say. And problem solving around that

27:14

is really tricky. Definitely

27:16

finding some new ways to communicate,

27:19

whether that's in the written

27:21

form, whether that's trying to catch

27:23

one family member on the side and asking

27:25

for their support as you navigate something.

27:28

It can be one of those situations where you

27:30

have to pull out some new ways

27:33

of doing things. And the other one sometimes

27:35

is we have to accept that some people won't

27:37

change. And

27:39

that's probably one of the trickier one is accepting

27:41

that we cannot necessarily

27:44

get people to do what we want. And what

27:46

do we then do to live with where

27:48

things are headed and not have it affect

27:51

us as badly, even if we feel the decisions

27:53

wrong. So there's a lot of tricky

27:55

things that really come up. So many tricky things.

27:59

Absolutely. Now,

28:01

in Brenda's situation, or a situation that seems

28:03

as difficult as that, when might it

28:06

actually be time to think about bringing

28:08

in a third party, maybe a mediator

28:10

or even a trusted family friend

28:13

to help broach that conversation?

28:16

When does it go from being, oh, well, that's

28:18

awkward, I have got to tag team with a racist uncle

28:20

too, you know, we need to actually have a

28:22

clear conversation about really important

28:24

decisions.

28:26

So if it's an immediate decision,

28:29

something that needs to be made, and is, you know,

28:31

so for example, you know, something like when

28:33

your parents' lives are, you know, got major decisions that

28:35

need to be had. So definitely on those strong decisions. But often

28:37

I would encourage people to

28:40

get help earlier in the situation before things

28:42

have really imploded. And at that stage, it

28:48

can just be speaking to someone about

28:50

how to navigate it and, you know, trying to ease up on some

28:53

of the tensions. Once you get past

28:56

that point, and you're just hitting, you know, a real stuck point,

28:58

that's when you want to bring someone in.

29:00

So when you know you've tried most things, then

29:03

you want to actually bring someone in. Be careful about

29:05

who you choose, though, because

29:07

that can be another source of tension and conflict. Gavin,

29:10

welcome to the show. What are your thoughts

29:13

on what contributes to awkward family relationships?

29:17

Yeah,

29:19

good morning, definitely. Yes, when there's

29:21

a family gathering,

29:24

particularly particularly later in life, when there's many, many

29:26

members of the family are very aged,

29:30

there appears to me to

29:32

be a chasm, because you mentioned sensitivities

29:35

before. It seems to be a

29:37

chasm between the older generation and the current generation,

29:40

not suggesting that they wouldn't

29:44

be in sensitivities in the current

29:46

generation. But I remember my great aunt

29:48

in her

29:49

late aunties, when I

29:51

caught up with her, she jumped

29:53

with Glee and up and down excited

29:55

to meet me. She was like a sort

29:57

of a

29:59

16-year-old girl. And she said,

30:02

when I go, you can have this painting.

30:05

Much, much later, the family was gathered

30:08

in the home together,

30:09

and my paternal grandmother was there. And

30:12

I went to take the painting off the wall,

30:15

and she said, no, you can't take that. That

30:17

belongs in the family.

30:19

And I thought, wow, this is a showstopper.

30:25

So that's what made me remember that when you mentioned

30:27

insensitivities.

30:29

Obviously, there was

30:31

a miscommunication or

30:33

a misunderstanding or something happened where that

30:36

wish of your great aunt was not communicated.

30:40

When you talk about insensitivities of the older generation,

30:42

can you just give me a bit

30:45

more example of what you mean? Do you mean when

30:47

it comes to politics or social issues

30:49

or just not understanding

30:52

what younger generations, their

30:56

interests, or their priorities may be?

30:58

And does it go both ways? Is it a one-way street or is

31:00

it a two-way street?

31:00

I

31:03

think largely it's a one-way street. With

31:06

the younger generation, the

31:09

insensitivities are less, don't

31:12

occur with the same

31:14

degree of social and family

31:16

insensitivities from the older generation

31:18

who were pretty cut and dry.

31:21

That's what I'm driving at. So

31:24

Gavin, thank you for calling in. I'm just curious,

31:26

what was the outcome with that painting? It's

31:30

still hanging on the wall. Still hanging on the wall. There

31:34

you go. Grandmother's long

31:36

dead. God bless her, though. OK. Well, Gavin,

31:38

thank you so much for calling in and sharing that anecdote

31:41

and your thoughts on what's going

31:44

on when it comes to awkward family reunions.

31:47

Tamara, cabinet, let's talk about the intergenerational

31:50

differences, because we haven't really touched on that. We've

31:52

talked about in-laws and spaces and places,

31:54

but different attitudes from different generations

31:57

can definitely play into. you

32:00

know, conflict in families. There's the text

32:03

about the racist uncle, you know, that was kind of

32:05

touched on that. How do we, this is actually

32:07

just part of life. Families are made of multi-generations.

32:10

We're going to run into these kinds of conflicts when

32:12

we get together as a group. How can we

32:15

be a little bit more, I don't

32:17

know, understanding of each other and

32:20

understand that, but also, you know, being

32:22

firm in who we are?

32:25

Some of the therapies

32:27

that we use will actually really go into

32:29

getting you to understand where the other

32:31

person is coming from in their place

32:34

and time. So when you think

32:36

of, say, war generations, they had

32:38

very different experiences to

32:41

what some of the younger generation have had.

32:43

And when you also think of the influences that

32:46

we now see, we've got very

32:48

different sets of social values that

32:51

come from what is going on in

32:53

your generation compared to another, and there

32:55

is a lot of conflict around that. So I

32:57

definitely see differences in

33:00

expectations, whether that be

33:02

parenting, whether that be life

33:04

decisions, career decisions, financial decisions.

33:07

A lot of those are generationally driven,

33:09

and they have some notes of that. So understanding

33:11

where the other person's coming is key. Absolutely.

33:16

Understanding where someone is coming from, that

33:19

can be difficult.

33:21

Like we say that in theory, understanding where someone's coming from,

33:23

but that can be difficult if, say, for example,

33:26

in the example of the racist

33:28

uncle, that goes against who we are

33:30

and our beliefs. So how do you then really

33:33

dig deep and try

33:35

to maintain that piece?

33:37

So often I try and

33:40

remember that people have

33:42

different levels of knowledge and education.

33:44

They've also had different life experiences.

33:47

And sometimes what's socially acceptable

33:50

to one generation is different to what's

33:52

socially acceptable to another. So

33:54

just an understanding of that, that doesn't necessarily

33:57

mean don't bring up or

33:59

make a comment.

33:59

that you disagree with what the person is

34:02

doing. And you can point that out, you

34:04

know, often in lighthearted ways

34:06

or in quite serious ways,

34:09

but allowing the comment to move on. You

34:11

can also bring it up at a different time. So there's

34:13

different ways to do things, but

34:16

it's a mirror of both. Don't be afraid sometimes

34:19

to say something, but also do

34:21

try to remember what experience might

34:23

have driven them to have that view.

34:26

And just a thought on the type

34:28

of event for these family reunions. I

34:30

wonder if having

34:32

more of an active activity

34:35

planned can help people, because people

34:37

can get together and they can

34:39

sit around at a barbecue and have no structured

34:41

activity, and that's when conversation happens. But

34:44

sometimes you can spend time with each other and

34:46

not actually speak to each

34:48

other. You can play a game, play sports, that

34:51

kind of thing. That's a good idea. Have a movie

34:53

night. You know, there are ways to spend time

34:55

with people who you may not see eye to eye with,

34:58

where you can have that quality time and minimize

35:01

the conversation time, can't you?

35:03

You definitely can. And I think this is

35:05

sort of the ten-pin bowling view

35:07

of the world. If you're out there, you're often concentrated

35:10

on the game. And you just have little

35:12

conversations around it, but they can be

35:14

much easier to navigate and manage

35:17

than, you know, two hours sitting at

35:19

the Christmas table across from Uncle

35:22

Joe. So I definitely

35:24

consider what activities. Kids are really

35:27

good distraction tools, but

35:30

definitely think about what you could do that

35:32

might lighten some of that conversation

35:34

load that leads to tense moments.

35:36

That's awesome. Grace in Victoria

35:39

has called in with a bit of advice on

35:41

family gatherings. Grace,

35:43

welcome to the show. What are your thoughts?

35:46

Thanks, Natalie. It's actually less

35:48

advice and more. I would love your guests. Oh,

35:50

okay, yes. Personal perspective on this. Absolutely. Grace,

35:52

hold forth. What's your question?

35:55

Well, basically, our

35:57

family gatherings can get quite tense because...

36:00

Well, I've got a cousin who's got two small children

36:03

and a third on the way. He

36:05

and his partner have quite different approaches

36:07

to parenting, let's put it that way. And

36:10

my aunt is also quite heavily involved in

36:12

the child rearing with

36:14

the not very patient uncle

36:17

on the side. So basically what we end up with

36:19

is two small children being

36:21

told four completely different things by

36:23

four completely different people and getting,

36:26

you know, they get confused and

36:28

frustrated and then act out and it just sort

36:29

of gets to it. And you're watching and it's driving you

36:32

a bit wild, isn't it? Absolutely. Okay.

36:35

So what's your question then for Tamara? Is it about

36:38

how not to drive yourself wild or

36:40

is it how to intervene or maybe both? Well,

36:43

yeah, I guess it's basically when

36:45

do you sort of judge on how to intervene and

36:48

are there ways to sort of

36:51

decrease the stress levels a little bit

36:54

because yeah, four different voices

36:56

sometimes they feel like intervening isn't going

36:58

to help because it'll just add a fifth. Yeah.

37:01

But it's hard to watch. I love that you've called

37:03

in commiserations, but also I love the question. Tamara,

37:06

what do you say?

37:07

So assuming that you can't speak

37:09

to everyone before and get that clarified,

37:11

which often you can't, I would

37:15

direct the actual child to take

37:17

the view of whichever person you

37:19

think is most appropriate, even if their advice

37:22

isn't great. So maybe that

37:24

simple comment of let's let mum

37:26

handle this and let's go over here,

37:28

but also think about where you are

37:30

because I think if you take people

37:34

into a situation where they're much more

37:36

distracted, it gives you a chance

37:38

to pull a few people away and allow

37:42

that parent to parent or to

37:44

allow one person to come in and manage the

37:46

situation with a few less voices and less

37:48

confusion for the children. It also means

37:50

less property damage. A

37:53

win-win. Grace, I'm just cheekily

37:55

curious. Is there one particular adult

37:57

in that scenario?

37:59

who you feel most

38:01

aligned with in terms of parenting. Like, do you

38:03

have a side? Do you have a horse in this race?

38:07

Oh, honestly, not really. There

38:10

are good elements from

38:12

probably three of the four and

38:16

yeah, depending on the situation, it

38:19

can change, unfortunately. Well, that is

38:21

a tricky one. Parenting styles, clashing parenting

38:23

styles, that is a biggie. So thank you so much

38:25

for calling in and asking

38:28

that question. I think we're going to leave it there for

38:30

this conversation. Tamara, let's

38:33

just consolidate. We covered

38:35

a lot. In your final 45 seconds

38:37

of advice, what do you want people

38:39

listening in to take away with them as

38:41

they head into that awkward

38:43

family reunion?

38:46

So definitely make a plan. So that'd

38:48

be my number one go-to. Remember

38:51

why you're there and try to

38:53

make sure that's clarified and

38:56

definitely try to see the other

38:58

person's point of view. And if you can, if there's

39:00

been a tension moment, try to

39:02

apologize for something early, however

39:04

small that may be to take some of the heat

39:07

out

39:07

and just get

39:10

that small talk prepared and the situation

39:12

considered. If you can do all of that, you'll

39:15

do the best you can and it may still not

39:17

go your way, but it gives you a good shot

39:19

at it. At least you knew that you tried. Tamara,

39:22

thank you so much. That's fantastic advice. Tamara

39:24

Kavanate is a clinical psychologist and is

39:27

the past president of the Australian

39:29

Psychological Society. Next

39:31

in the two-hard basket, another dilemma

39:33

of the family variety.

39:37

Attention passengers. Ba-da-ba-ba-da.

39:41

Ah, thank you, Simon. Hi,

39:43

I'm Jonathan Green. And if you caught the first

39:45

two seasons of Return Ticket, you may

39:48

be wondering, where on earth will

39:50

we go for season three? On

39:52

Return Ticket, we take journeys of the mind.

39:55

No passport required.

39:59

Come fly with us. Return

40:02

ticket on the ABC Listen

40:05

app. Got an issue

40:07

you just can't fix? On the fence about

40:09

what direction you should take. Been

40:12

wrestling with a situation that's out of control.

40:15

Let's take it out of the too hard basket.

40:18

This dilemma is a tough one. Stephen wonders

40:21

whether or not to reveal his father's struggles

40:23

with mental health in the eulogy speech at

40:25

his dad's funeral as a way of destigmatizing

40:28

mental health for the rest of his family. My

40:30

guests are writer and comedian Jennifer Wong

40:33

and presenter at ABC Darwin James Finlay. Jen,

40:36

James, welcome. I'm asking. Hello.

40:39

Hi, welcome. Hello. I

40:41

would love both of your first impressions

40:44

when you read this dilemma. Jen, what's

40:46

your quick take on this?

40:48

My quick take is that it's really important

40:51

to respect the wishes of

40:54

the person who you're eulogizing. But

40:57

I do agree that the mental health aspect is

41:00

important to destigmatize, but

41:02

perhaps isn't the right place for it. OK, well,

41:05

I'm going to hear more about that later. But James, I also

41:07

want to hear about your quick first impression.

41:10

Yeah, look, I think it

41:12

really does come down to balance when it

41:14

comes to doing eulogies

41:16

for people. And look, and Jen's right.

41:18

You're right, Jen. Jen's never

41:21

wrong, honestly. You

41:24

want to reflect on the person's

41:26

life and do it in a way

41:28

that they really do wish. But I'm going to play

41:31

devil's advocate here today. You've got a captive

41:33

audience. So

41:35

how do you make the most... This is the broadcaster.

41:37

Do you speak in my genes? Just thinking

41:40

about the audience. Yeah,

41:42

do a bit of comedy on top. What is the audience?

41:45

What does the audience need? How can you give it to them?

41:49

So how do you balance that with also doing it

41:51

in good taste? Yeah, I love

41:52

that. I love it. OK, let's

41:54

hear the full story from Stephen now. We've teased

41:56

the audience enough. Stephen writes,

41:59

died recently, and I've been asked by the family

42:02

to give a speech at his funeral. I'm

42:04

worried about what I should or shouldn't say. In

42:06

particular, I'm torn about whether I should say

42:08

anything about his struggles with mental health. Dad

42:12

never talked about it, and right to the end, steadfastly

42:14

denied that he had mental health issues.

42:17

It wasn't something that directly affected his

42:19

work or social relationships, so

42:21

for the most part, he would have seemed fine

42:23

and was able to keep his issues to himself. In

42:26

fact, it was only later in his life when a number

42:28

of us as adult children had our own struggles

42:30

with mental health that we started to recognize

42:33

his symptoms,

42:34

and Mom, with the help of his GP

42:36

and other medical professionals, tried to work

42:38

with him to acknowledge what was going on and

42:40

get treatment for it. I recognize

42:42

that Dad was a man of his generation and grew up

42:44

in a time when you didn't talk about things like mental

42:47

health. He was also very private and

42:49

would have hated the idea of anything like this

42:51

being aired in public, but as someone

42:53

who has experienced mental health issues myself,

42:56

I can also see this as an opportunity to

42:58

potentially break down some of the old stigmas

43:01

and maybe help others find the courage

43:03

to open up about their own struggles and

43:05

get help. Now, Jen, I

43:08

have seen your comedy festival

43:10

show, Jennifer Wong Has No Peripheral Vision, and

43:13

you stand up on the stage and very bravely

43:15

talk about your own mental health

43:17

issues. You found a way to do it. Why do you think

43:19

it's important to be able to talk about your experiences

43:22

in such a public forum?

43:24

Well, I choose to do it because I've

43:26

had depression for about 20 years, and

43:29

I choose to do it because I think that

43:32

I would like it

43:33

to be something we can talk about without shame.

43:36

I think that people who are experiencing any

43:38

condition to do with mental health

43:42

experience enough suffering as it is. So to

43:44

add shame to that element

43:46

seems to be an unnecessary thing.

43:50

I talk about my experience,

43:53

but I do think that I

43:55

also believe that everyone

43:58

should choose whether I want to do it. are not they

44:00

self-disclose when it comes to a

44:02

mental condition, a mental health condition. So

44:06

it's surprising when I hear this situation

44:08

with Stephen, I think to myself, well, as someone who's

44:11

talked about depression very publicly, I would

44:15

have thought I would think, of course, talk about it,

44:17

share openly. But I do also

44:19

feel that it's not for the

44:21

dad to be, it's

44:24

not the dad who's being asked to talk about it

44:26

himself, it's someone else, and the dad

44:28

never chose to

44:29

disclose this. And so that's why I think

44:32

that Stephen shouldn't

44:34

be talking about this at

44:36

the funeral. James, we talked about audience

44:38

before, and we're being a bit

44:41

cheeky because it's a funeral, you

44:43

know, audience, that's not what we call it. But let's

44:46

talk about that question. Who is the funeral

44:49

for? Is it for the people who are living

44:51

and gathered there? Is it for the

44:53

person who has died?

44:55

Look, I think it's a bit of both, to be

44:57

honest, because you

45:00

want to celebrate the life of someone who

45:02

is not there anymore, but

45:04

you know, you also want to do something that

45:07

is in the wishes of the person who has

45:09

passed. Like my, for

45:11

instance, my Umar and actually my Uncle

45:13

Gunter as well,

45:14

they don't want to have a funeral. They're

45:17

like, you know what, we don't want all the

45:20

celebration, the pomp or whatever. Can

45:22

you just not do anything and

45:25

do your own thing? Like I don't want a big

45:27

deal. Yeah, why not there James? Yeah,

45:30

why don't they? I'm not

45:33

sure. Like I've asked, I was like, no, they said that

45:35

we just don't want the hassle. I'm like, it's

45:37

not a hassle. Like we want to celebrate your life. And

45:39

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You

45:41

do whatever you want, but do not have a big celebration

45:44

for us. And so this is, I guess,

45:46

kind of in the same lines as following

45:49

the wishes of someone who won't be there anymore.

45:52

But at the other hand of that,

45:55

you really do want to celebrate someone that

45:57

you really dearly loved. Absolutely.

46:00

So in that kind of respect, who

46:02

is the funeral for? It's I

46:04

think it's really for the people that are

46:07

still there because the

46:09

person who's gone isn't there anymore. And so

46:11

you do want to celebrate the

46:13

person's life and do

46:15

it with people that you love as well that are around

46:18

you in a way that still respects

46:21

the person who's left. You know, we

46:23

had some comments on the Facebook page, Jen,

46:25

and it is interesting. A

46:28

lot of people are following along your

46:30

lines saying that they would

46:33

not disclose. Just

46:35

a few suggestions. And I want to see what you think.

46:38

Ashley says, I was recently in the same position

46:40

and ultimately the eulogy is your nod to

46:42

the man he was. I said something

46:44

about my father being able to remember extraordinary

46:47

details and facts, but could never

46:49

remember where his keys were. This

46:51

recognized his neurodiversity.

46:55

I read that and I thought I would

46:57

not

46:59

be able to interpret that that's what

47:01

was being said

47:03

because of the comment about the keys.

47:07

But I think it's an interesting

47:09

creative jumping off point. How

47:12

can you allude to,

47:15

you know, mental health issues or, you

47:17

know, some shadows in your life? We all live life, nothing. It's

47:20

not always a bed of roses. How can,

47:23

how can, what's the balance between honoring

47:25

somebody, remembering them, and

47:27

also, you know, showing a

47:30

whole sense of who they are, who they are.

47:32

What's a way you can be tasteful about that?

47:35

Hmm. I think it comes

47:37

down to your

47:40

memories of the person.

47:43

You know, I think it comes down to telling stories

47:45

that show your relationship

47:47

with your father and the relationship that

47:50

your father had with, you know, his

47:52

family and his colleagues and things like that. And

47:54

the thing I want to come back to with Stephen is that Stephen

47:56

has said that

47:58

the, for the most. part,

48:00

friends and colleagues probably wouldn't have known

48:03

that Stephen's dad had

48:06

had issues with mental health. Like

48:09

he, it sounded like that he was able

48:11

to mask it quite well. And so I

48:13

guess for me, that's one of the issues is like, if

48:16

people couldn't tell, if it's

48:18

not even like

48:19

you're trying to lighten

48:22

people's experiences

48:25

of any encounters they may have had with your dad,

48:27

by giving them some further information as

48:29

to why he may have behaved in the way that he

48:31

had at certain times. I kind

48:35

of feel like it feels like it's more for

48:38

Stephen and his desire to share

48:40

about mental health and to let people know that they

48:42

can get help that it is for anything

48:44

to do with the dad. And I think the wonderful thing

48:47

is that Beverly, you and

48:49

I and James are talking this morning about mental health

48:51

very openly on air. And actually

48:53

Stephen has done a very good job of getting

48:55

people to have a conversation about

48:58

mental health. And perhaps he doesn't really

49:00

need to do

49:00

this at the funeral because he's already got Radio

49:03

National talking about it. That's such

49:06

a wonderful point, Jen. That's such

49:08

a wonderful- She's

49:11

planned the whole way. Now

49:14

he doesn't have to do it at this stage because it's

49:16

right across

49:16

the country. I love that. That's such a

49:18

great point. James, you've actually written

49:21

a couple of eulogies in your time. You've helped other

49:24

people write eulogies. What's

49:27

your approach to that particular writing?

49:30

Yeah, it's

49:32

difficult. I think you

49:34

go in with a kind of celebratory kind of

49:37

lens here and you've

49:40

got to do it with a little bit of humor as well. Funerals

49:43

are difficult, no matter the situation.

49:47

And if you can tastefully

49:49

throw in some characteristics

49:53

of the person in the speech

49:55

that reflects on who they were

49:57

in their brightest moments, then

49:59

That's a really important thing

50:02

to do. And

50:05

yeah, because yeah, giving eulogies

50:07

is hard. So if you can throw

50:09

in some bits and pieces in there of

50:12

like, I think memories and stories

50:14

are really important in eulogies as well.

50:17

And that way you're also

50:20

reflecting, you can

50:22

paint a picture of what the person was like. Something

50:26

like, I'm sure we've all sat through

50:28

a eulogy that is like a list of events.

50:30

Yes. Which is, I think,

50:33

personally, not the best way to present

50:35

a eulogy. Just your

50:36

opinion, James. Yeah, just

50:38

my opinion here. But

50:41

yeah, no, so I think, yeah, stories,

50:43

memories. And I think that's where you can throw in

50:45

some like kind of line, Stephen, because

50:47

I know you're listening, where you could say something

50:50

like, you know, while dad was of a generation

50:52

that didn't speak or acknowledge about issues

50:54

of mental health. Like I implore you

50:56

to make sure that you get the help that

50:58

you need. Just slide

51:01

it in there somewhere. You've got a captive

51:03

audience. If that's the way

51:05

that you want to put it in and then move on to some

51:07

other memory. I love that we have two

51:09

professional communicators in the house.

51:12

I hope Stephen's listening and has written that line down.

51:14

That was beautiful. Jen, do you have any ghostwriting

51:16

that you want to add to this eulogy for Stephen?

51:21

Look, I think Stephen, I think you actually know

51:23

what you want to do. And

51:25

I think you just follow your heart and you

51:27

just go out there and you honor your dad in the

51:29

way that you think is best.

51:32

I think Stephen knows what

51:34

he's going to do. I really believe

51:36

in this. Okay, so Jen's there in spirit. James

51:38

is volunteering to ghostwrite. James, if you want to send that eulogy

51:40

through, we will get it to

51:43

Stephen. Because that was beautiful. That was

51:45

very, you got me in the feels there.

51:47

You can catch Jennifer Wong's show. Jennifer Wong has no

51:50

peripheral vision. At the Sydney Comedy Festival,

51:52

James Finlay is a presenter on ABC Darwin.

51:54

Send your dilemmas to lifematters

51:57

at abc.net.au.

53:59

Anytime on the ABC Listen app

54:02

and a big thank you to the Life Matters team.

54:04

Our producers are Greg Muller, Bec

54:06

Zajac, Lisa Needham, Michelle

54:08

Weeks, Nat Tenchich, Beth Atkinson-Quinton

54:11

and Skye Kirkham. Our acting executive

54:14

producer is Hailey Crane. Our audio

54:16

engineer is Carrie Dell. I'm Beverly

54:18

Wang. Thanks so much for hanging out with me. Hillary Harper

54:21

is with you for Monday.