When a pastor has experienced both the beauty of a spiritual community, and the hurt and abuse of demands for excellence for nearly 26 years, it is a confusing place to occupy. Jason Raitz and I have been friends for nearly 30 years, walking with each other through the highs and lows of our lives. We have landed in very different places; geographically, socially, theologically. But our lives continue to intersect and enrich each other. Today we have an honest conversation about the liminal space he is in, wondering what role the church plays in his life, and the world. We leave it unresolved, because that is liminal space, and that is reality for most of life.

You can connect with Jason’s work here: https://www.speakwithpeople.com/

Time Stamps for the episode:
03:10 30 years of friendship
06:42 My “conversion” story, and Jason’s role in it
11:18 A decision to be a pastor, at age 20
15:34 First call to a church, at 20 years old
20:53 Crashing the Ego in a field
25:55 The Pressure of Excellence
30:48 Generosity and Abuse from the same source
36:18 Leaving Willow Creek to plant a church
41:46 Driving the hype train off the cliff
46:33 Leaving the pastorate to start a business
51:20 Deconstructing ecclesially
56:45 Finding a new identity post pastorate
1:02:00 Conclusions

All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree

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All Music for this episode composed by Axeltree