0:01

Joe: Hello and welcome to episode 72 of Linux After Dark.

0:04

Joe: I'm Joe. Chris: I'm Chris. Gary: I'm Gary.

0:07

Dalton: I'm Dalton. Florian: I'm Florian. Joe: Welcome back chaps and welcome to the show Florian.

0:11

Florian: Thank you for having me. Joe: So we've been wanting to talk about accessibility in Linux and how it compares with the other operating systems for quite a while.

0:20

Joe: But we didn't really want to do that ourselves.

0:23

Joe: We wanted to talk to someone who is an expert on accessibility.

0:27

Joe: I think it's fair to say you have a fair amount of experience with accessibility.

0:30

Florian: Yeah, I've been doing this for quite some time, yes. Joe: So you are a blind user, is that the right term?

0:35

Florian: Yeah, that's what I tend to use. Florian: I'm a blind, what they usually call a native screen reader user now, so I actually use this to get stuff done, basically.

0:43

Joe: So you just don't have a screen at all? Florian: I have one, but it's off in a corner of the room somewhere on the floor for when I need it once a year, and that's really all to be said about that.

0:53

Joe: Right, okay. Joe: So you completely rely on screen readers then?

0:56

Florian: Yes, yes I do. Joe: So what is the best operating system and setup for a screen reader user like you?

1:04

Florian: So I myself do quite a bit of different things.

1:07

Florian: I'm a streamer, I'm a coder, a hacker, a gamer, and for all that, I have unfortunately found that Windows is currently the best stack with the open source NVIDIA screen reader and a handful of programs like the right browser.

1:23

Florian: I tend to use Firefox and Chrome, VS Code for my code editing needs, and a handful of other things, really.

1:30

Joe: So why is Windows better than, for example, desktop Linux?

1:34

Florian: So what I think is the main deciding factor is the maturity of the APIs that, essentially, screen readers and other assistive technology pull from.

1:45

Florian: Basically, what screen readers and other assistive tech tends to do is it will query various APIs on the operating system level to make sure that it can, for example, indicate what button a user has just landed on or focused on.

1:58

Florian: And it needs to do that in various different ways. Florian: It needs to do it on the web.

2:01

Florian: It needs to do it on a desktop. Florian: It needs to do that in hybrid applications that are really web applications, but they're wrapped in a desktop shell.

2:08

Florian: And there's all sorts of little ifs, buts, and gotchas to that process.

2:12

Florian: And what I'm noticing is that particularly on Windows with NVDA, that's been handled pretty well.

2:18

Florian: Whereas if I'm looking at Mac or a desktop Linux, there can be quite a few missed edge cases that can completely ruin someone's day.

2:28

Florian: So in Linux land there is the installer called Calamares, which is like this installer framework to make installers for, well, various images, various live Linux systems.

2:38

Florian: An issue was opened on 2015, infamous issue 470, that basically indicates, hey, screen readers can read the installer because it runs as a privileged user.

2:50

Florian: and all sorts of interesting D-Bus problems and ATSPI problems.

2:55

Florian: And we are now nine years later, and they still haven't quite figured it out.

2:59

Florian: There is one distro that, through some hack, managed to make Orca, the Linux screen reader, speak on the installer screens.

3:07

Florian: But anything else that uses that installer, a user will open it, and the screen reader will just say, Orca unavailable, or screen reader unavailable.

3:14

Florian: And that's it. Florian: End of the line. Florian: They can't install that OS by themselves.

3:19

Joe: Right, how does that compare with the Ubuntu installer then, the old one at least?

3:23

Florian: It's better. Florian: Ubuntu is one of those screen reader, I wouldn't say centric, but they're closely aligned with Gnome.

3:32

Florian: Gnome has a track record of doing this relatively well, and I believe Orca is actually made by the same group as Gnome is, so everybody else sort of uses what they made.

3:44

Florian: And as a result of that, basically it tends to work relatively well on Ubuntu, but the further you go off the beaten path, I myself use Kali Linux for example sometimes, the more likely you're opening yourself up to, oh, there may not be a voice installed, or Orca may not know how to use the speech engine that's been installed, or permission issues, like I just indicated.

4:02

Florian: So it's one of those things that If you do everything you're meant to be doing, like if you're a proper mainstream Linux user that uses Ubuntu and Gnome and only the most stable versions, you're generally OK-ish.

4:17

Florian: But the further away you get from that path, so if you start using less supported distributions or distributions that rely on security a bunch more, that's when stuff starts falling over.

4:27

Joe: Yeah, I've heard that GNOME is very good, and I've heard very mixed things about KDE Plasma, so can you please set the record straight?

4:35

Joe: It sounds like installing it isn't necessarily easy if it uses calamaris, but once it's installed, how is it with KDE Plasma desktop?

4:42

Florian: So KDE Plasma uses Qt under the hood, and Qt generally tends to work pretty well.

4:47

Florian: The problems that I have seen are that sometimes there is a flag you need to set, like Qt, Accessibility equals one.

4:55

Florian: I think it's like an environment variable somewhere, maybe a checkbox.

4:58

Florian: And at that point, things start working. Florian: That's also a bit of a theme.

5:01

Florian: The Fedora distro is very famous for that.

5:04

Florian: You have to go into an accessibility thing to turn on the enable assistive technologies checkbox.

5:11

Florian: Because if you don't do that, then things like your browser won't work and other sorts of other things.

5:14

Joe: But how are you supposed to do that if you can't use assistive technologies to do it?

5:18

Florian: You don't. Florian: That's the problem. Joe: So you need someone to help you.

5:21

Florian: Yeah, and what I know of KDE Plasma is that very recently it's actually gotten quite a bit better.

5:26

Florian: I have not yet had a chance to play with it. Florian: I have a half-disassembled Kali Linux version that I'm going to put it on.

5:33

Florian: And yeah, I'm going to see how bad or how good it is.

5:36

Chris: So have you ever had a period of attempting, because I notice you said regretfully it's Windows that you run, have you had a concerted period with either desktop Linux or macOS where you tried to daily drive it and just couldn't, and how long did that last?

5:52

Florian: Various times. Florian: honestly like I've done Mac OS several times because I would need it for work I'm a coder or accessibility tester depending on the day of the week and Some companies don't like you to bring your own device So they'll give you a MacBook and at that point I am sort of forced to use Mac OS which honestly is fine like it's not quite up to my standards of.

6:13

Florian: I know where everything is, and I know exactly what buttons to press at every given situation to make sure that things do what I want them to do.

6:19

Florian: Which, to be fair, Windows isn't doing any more either, but it used to be.

6:23

Florian: As for Linux, I have tried it several times, actually.

6:25

Florian: I've tried it the first time in the Vista days.

6:29

Florian: I decided that nothing could be worse than what I was going through at that particular time, so I put, I think it was Ubuntu 9.04-based Vinux on my computer.

6:40

Florian: that was a blind-specific distro at the time, and that worked relatively okay, honestly.

6:47

Florian: Everything pre-GNOME 3 was relatively doable, and then things changed, and now it's a bit of a minefield, honestly.

6:56

Dalton: Is the minefield in any way related to switching between X or Wayland?

7:01

Dalton: Are there some security things in the way? Dalton: Do you know exactly what's kind of the sticking point there?

7:07

Florian: Honestly, all of the above. Florian: Wayland was a thing that happened that wasn't really... in concert with the accessibility stuff changing.

7:17

Florian: So I saw that I think a month or two ago, we saw, hey, we now sort of have Wayland working with Orca, and it's still being worked on.

7:25

Florian: But if we look at how long Wayland's been under general, let's call it like a sort of a general release for people to find, I'd say I think I can safely say it's been out for at least a year and a half for people to sort of play around with.

7:39

Florian: And it's just not been a great experience. Florian: for people yet.

7:44

Florian: And then security, I mean, obviously, I just gave that Calamari's example where you have that getting in the way.

7:50

Florian: And sometimes there's just other things where we had a period of time where audio was a big problem because Orca runs as a particular user.

7:59

Florian: And if you're going into the terminal only, if you're going into TTY only mode and you just don't use the GUI, there is a different screen reader you turn on called leader speak up or the more modern equivalent fan rear.

8:10

Florian: which also needs audio. Florian: And what we noticed is that you couldn't have both of those working, because Pulse Audio wouldn't really know how to handle the fact that one user was trying to get audio from two TTYs, and that was a whole entire thing.

8:26

Florian: Really what I would say for Linux accessibility is that it works once you have it working up to a point that may or may not be good enough for you.

8:35

Florian: But I don't think it's just, I think the main issue currently with it is that it's just not very user-friendly.

8:40

Florian: There's a lot of tinkering involved. Florian: Sometimes things just fall over for no reason.

8:44

Florian: And you need to have a little bit of background for, well, like a techie background to get some of the things fixed as well.

8:49

Florian: For example, Java applications that require a particular setting to be on in order to expose their accessibility things properly.

8:58

Florian: QT applications, same deal. Florian: And generally the idea is that screen readers sort of flick these settings on automatically when an app gains focus, but that very often falls over and it doesn't work right.

9:11

Florian: So then the user gets a screen that doesn't read or a field that has no label or anything of the sort.

9:18

Florian: where I'm like, this is fine if you're used to this kind of thing.

9:21

Florian: Like, I don't terribly mind. Florian: If I have to use a Linux GUI, I will.

9:25

Florian: Like, I love Cherry Tree. Florian: That's a fantastic note-taking application.

9:28

Florian: I wish I had it on Windows. Florian: But sometimes, like, I remember last year when I was doing the OSCP stuff for Ofsec in the Kali Linux machine, and there was this Start Machine button on their page, which is a graphic that you have to click.

9:42

Florian: And on Windows, I can just press Enter on that, and it'll work.

9:46

Florian: And on Linux, I have to know that Orca has a particular cursor that I can use to click that physically with the mouse.

9:53

Florian: And like I said, it's all fine. Florian: It all works.

9:55

Florian: It's all perfectly doable once you know the trick to it.

9:58

Florian: But at some point, the tricks just pile up and up and up, and you just lose productivity for the extra keystroke that you have to press.

10:04

Florian: And that is annoying power users because it doesn't go as fast as they'd like.

10:10

Florian: And it's blocking non-power users because they have no idea how to do all this stuff.

10:14

Florian: So it's in this weird place of not quite good enough for either group, if that makes sense.

10:22

Gary: So it sounds like being familiar with the UI to some extent actually is a really important thing for you.

10:27

Gary: So how do you cope when the UI of an application just changes in a version upgrade?

10:33

Florian: Whiskey. Chris: Slack.

10:35

Gary: Well yeah I'm thinking Slack or Firefox changed the UI quite considerably a few years ago.

10:40

Gary: That must have really been some getting used to because you can't just click around I guess and find where the options are quite as easily as someone with VisionKit.

10:49

Florian: No, and sometimes it can cause some problems actually because the UI may not actually have changed that much for screen reader users.

10:56

Florian: Like, do keep in mind, we sort of work with the underpinnings of the UI, so if it's really just iconography that's changed or just a bunch of different colors, or like various other things that just really only affect the visual.

11:08

Florian: And we may not even realize that something has changed. Florian: For example, take the new Zoom for work UI.

11:13

Florian: That's really barely changed for me at all.

11:16

Florian: But I'm told that it's quite different visually. Florian: But sometimes, yeah, the menu bar disappearing and becoming the hamburger menu, that can be a bit much sometimes.

11:26

Florian: I remember some applications doing that. Florian: A lot of people still despise the ribbon.

11:30

Florian: for various applications because they thought the menu bar was faster.

11:34

Florian: And to be fair, it probably was. Florian: So yes, the UI changing can actually be really annoying.

11:40

Florian: And actually, what happens a lot of the time is when we see the words new design in an app or an interface, we are all like, uh-oh, because that usually means they forgot that we exist, and it's completely broken with screen readers.

11:53

Gary: So do you find that a lot of applications aren't tested particularly well with screen readers and that that causes a lot of issues?

11:59

Florian: Yeah, generally they're not tested at all. Florian: If I do a test for an application or a website, I can usually immediately tell, because one of the first things you would do is, for example, tab through the UI, just as a keyboard user.

12:11

Florian: Keyboard users are not necessarily the same as screen reader users.

12:14

Florian: Screen reader users have a few more cheat codes that they can use to get to places quickly, and particularly on the web.

12:21

Florian: And keyboard-only users generally don't have those cheat codes.

12:24

Florian: So what we tend to do as testers is we first just use a tab key.

12:28

Florian: The arrow keys, the space key, and the enter key. Florian: You're going to see how far we get with that.

12:32

Florian: If you try that in various applications, you're going to get nowhere, because the concept of a tab focus just doesn't exist.

12:38

Gary: Yeah, or all of the buttons are in weird orders when you tap through them and things like that.

12:42

Florian: See, also OBS. Florian: Yes, that can absolutely happen.

12:46

Florian: Sometimes it can also be the opposite, where it works fine with the keyboard and it doesn't work great for a screen reader user.

12:53

Florian: This happens, for example, when you have an autocomplete field that you type into.

12:58

Florian: And screen readers and other assistive technologies have this limit of generally only being able to see one thing at a time clearly or at all.

13:05

Florian: Screen readers only see one thing at all. Florian: So if you're typing in an edit field that opens an autocomplete list, what's going to happen is the screen reader needs to make a choice.

13:13

Florian: Am I going to read what you're typing in the edit field?

13:17

Florian: Or am I going to tell you the autocomplete results that just popped down, and how am I going to switch you between the two?

13:23

Florian: For a lot of things, there's not really a good answer for that.

13:26

Florian: Generally, you want the list to be focused, because otherwise you won't see what the list is doing.

13:31

Florian: And if that's not the case, then you can use the arrow keys to navigate through the list's items, but your screen reader is just going to say blank.

13:39

Florian: because it's telling you what the contents of the edit field that you're typing into is, which is, very correctly, blank.

13:45

Florian: This was a problem in CyberChef, for example, which is a tool that a lot of hackers use.

13:50

Florian: And I flagged this and it's being fixed, so that's good.

13:53

Florian: But yeah, it can be tricky. Joe: Okay, this episode is sponsored by 1Password.

13:59

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15:00

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15:03

Joe: slash Linux after dark. Joe: Quick bit of admin then.

15:06

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15:09

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15:13

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15:23

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15:27

Joe: It seems like you do care about open source and ideas of freedom and stuff.

15:32

Joe: So with that in mind, what message do you have to the free and open source software community in terms of accessibility?

15:39

Joe: Like, what would you like them to do? Florian: That's a good question.

15:42

Florian: I think really what I'd like to convey is that it's not as hard as you think it is.

15:47

Florian: And also it is. Florian: It's not hard to do it well enough.

15:53

Florian: It is just really difficult to do it really well.

15:56

Florian: I think that's the divide I'd like to make.

15:59

Florian: Things like just tabbing around your UI, like running a screen reader and just seeing what it says.

16:05

Florian: when you do that or when you just don't use a mouse and try to use the keyboard, that is stuff that you can easily test yourself.

16:11

Florian: That only takes literally 15 minutes.

16:13

Florian: So I don't want to hear, we don't have capacity, we don't have the team, we're a small team, we'll get to it next year, September, maybe.

16:20

Florian: I just want you to go open your app right now, turn on whatever screen reader you have, you have one built in on the Mac.

16:27

Florian: if you want to use that, it's called VoiceOver. Florian: There is a free option, NVDA and Narrator on Windows, and if you can get it to work, there is a screen reader on Linux called Orca.

16:37

Florian: Turn that on go play go have a play with your application right now.

16:40

Florian: I'll wait. Florian: It's fine. Florian: It'll only take five minutes.

16:42

Florian: See how it does. Florian: See what it says if it says My dot awesome dot button dot label slash slash class name equals equals.

16:50

Florian: you did something wrong and it's easy to fix.

16:53

Florian: go fix. Florian: That's really one of those.

16:56

Florian: get the low-hanging fruit at least because what we're seeing a lot right now is that people don't even do that.

17:01

Florian: they will not consider accessibility when picking, for example, their UI kit, which means that we get a lot of Rust-inspired UIs that did not also think about accessibility, so they're not accessible.

17:12

Florian: And there's just so much stuff you could do, so much better you could do to make this open source movement more inclusive and have people actually be able to use the tools that come out of it a lot better.

17:24

Florian: And I personally would be very happy if that happened, because it's always a bit of a struggle to find tools that work well enough for my needs.

17:31

Florian: And I'm an efficiency nut, so I am picky.

17:34

Florian: But I'm also a power user, which means I'll deal with a lot more stuff than most people will.

17:39

Florian: If you tab around and nothing happens, people are going to quit your application and not going to use it.

17:44

Florian: And they're going to complain. Florian: And then you have one more issue to be burned out about.

17:47

Florian: So just preempt it. Florian: Just check it beforehand.

17:51

Florian: Make sure you just give it a look. Florian: Catch the low-hanging fruit, and if you don't know, just ask.

17:56

Florian: There's also blind people in the open source community.

17:59

Florian: You can do a looking for help, looking for feedback.

18:03

Florian: That is not poison. Florian: You can do that. Joe: It sounds like some effort made is a lot better than no effort made.

18:10

Florian: Absolutely. Florian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Florian: For sure. Chris: It's interesting because this conversation kind of comes about because we sometimes have challenges on this podcast and somebody wrote in and said you should try using a screen reader and instead of doing it we had an on-air discussion and that's why we wanted to talk to someone.

18:28

Chris: I guess what we were scared about was kind of cosplaying someone who had visual impairment or blindness or not respecting that.

18:37

Chris: Do you think it's better that developers should try to get into the mind frame or find more testers that actually have genuine accessibility needs?

18:46

Florian: That's always a tricky one. Florian: For the one hand, I would definitely say always, if you can find someone who has native experience to test your applications, absolutely go for that.

18:56

Florian: And if you can, obviously this is a bit harder in open source where a lot of things are voluntary, but if you work... let's say a big company and you have to do the next release for your company, obviously that company should be paying these people.

19:09

Florian: That's just fair because you're essentially asking for a consult.

19:13

Florian: For open source, obviously that's a different story and sometimes people just do it voluntarily and that's fine too.

19:19

Florian: But if you can get a person who uses a particular assistive technology and you want to know if it works with your game or your application, have them test it.

19:27

Florian: But you can do basic testing yourself first.

19:31

Florian: You can make sure that the screen reader, when it comes on, even sees your application.

19:35

Florian: A lot of times when you use a certain UI toolkit and it's just not speaking at all, then there's no point having a screen reader person come in and test it because they're not going to have anything to test.

19:45

Florian: There's just nothing there. Florian: There is a point where you probably want to get other people involved that do use these assistive technologies just so you're not making decisions for people that aren't you.

19:54

Florian: But you can do some of the easy, sort of low-hanging fruit.

19:58

Florian: You can do the easy things as well. Florian: There is an ORCA manual that's not super long.

20:03

Florian: You can quickly read through the main keys and use it.

20:07

Florian: Again, people think this takes hours or even days of time.

20:10

Florian: This takes half an hour at most. Florian: And then just see how that goes.

20:13

Florian: And if you find a lot of problems, that's when you start making issues and prioritization recommendations to the rest of the team, stuff like that.

20:23

Florian: But yeah, definitely have someone come in if you can.

20:26

Florian: But if you can't, I don't think it's necessarily a problem for you to do the basics either.

20:31

Dalton: I think that is a really important thing to talk about with different toolkits and application libraries that are out now.

20:38

Dalton: A lot of the new age ones don't think about accessibility or iBus or whatever it is on each platform much at all.

20:48

Dalton: What toolkits and things are people developing in today that do have really good support for this?

20:53

Dalton: that usually just works at least on Windows?

20:56

Florian: I mean, I'd honestly say on either platform that's going to be the web, because it is hard but not impossible to screw up the web.

21:04

Florian: It is a lot easier when you start using React. Florian: Oh, name drop!

21:08

Florian: No, basically, if you use semantic HTML on the web, and here we go again, that's an old standard a lot of people are sort of just ignoring, but if you do do that, Then there's a lot of smart people who figure out how those widgets should work, and then they generally tend to work.

21:23

Florian: If you start doing your own thing, it becomes harder.

21:26

Florian: And that's really what a lot of these toolkits are. Florian: Like if you use the C-sharp .NET components that Microsoft provides, you're generally fine.

21:34

Florian: If you start customizing them, doing your own thing with them, and not properly inheriting from what's already there, you may break it.

21:40

Florian: Particularly in things like Go and Rust, I've seen UI libraries pop up that just don't give anything to the APIs.

21:49

Florian: Yeah, at that point, there's just not much I can say.

21:52

Florian: You did it wrong. Florian: Go fix it. Florian: That's really all I can do.

21:56

Florian: I can't think of any examples right now, but I've seen a couple of applications.

21:59

Florian: Like, yeah, I did this thing in Rust, and I opened it, and it's like, yeah, I can't even read the window title.

22:04

Florian: Good job. Florian: I don't see developers who are making tools like this.

22:08

Florian: This is always a problem. Florian: Whose fault is this?

22:12

Florian: Who do we hold responsible? Florian: Is it the developer for picking that UI toolkit thoughtlessly?

22:16

Florian: Is it the UI kit developer who decided to not care about this?

22:22

Florian: the education that this developer probably received?

22:24

Florian: that didn't cover accessibility. Florian: There is a whole chain of responsibility here, and no one's really at fault.

22:29

Florian: And also, everyone's at fault. Florian: So as a user of open source technology, you come into the application you're trying to use.

22:37

Florian: You make an issue that says, hey, this is broken, and I'd like you to fix it.

22:41

Florian: And then this developer is sort of seeing that and going, well, yeah, but this is broken because of a UI library that I chose three years ago that I've built my whole entire thing around.

22:50

Florian: What am I supposed to do with this point? Florian: And I don't have an answer for you.

22:54

Florian: At that point, you're so far in. Florian: As accessibility testers, we often say it's better to do the accessibility as early as you possibly can in the design stage.

23:03

Florian: Otherwise, what you're trying to do is add a blueberry to a blueberry muffin after the blueberry muffins already come out of the oven.

23:08

Florian: It's not going to work. Florian: You can shove it in there, and it's going to hang out in there, and it will work at some point.

23:14

Florian: But it's never going to be as good as if you just put them in the stupid batter to begin with.

23:18

Chris: I have one quick question before we wrap up.

23:21

Chris: You mentioned right at the beginning you have a screen in the corner and you use it once a year.

23:25

Chris: What is that for? Florian: I use that when I accidentally hit the CMOS button on my computer and resets it and I have to use the BIOS to get back into my system.

23:33

Florian: It doesn't talk at that point. Chris: At that point you need to call someone else in?

23:37

Chris: How do you navigate the CMOS? Florian: When that happens, basically what I have to do is this whole entire song and dance where I take my phone and I make pictures of the screen, OCR those pictures to see what the text says and then hopefully I see the hotkeys and then press those buttons and hopefully it works.

23:52

Florian: And if that doesn't work, yes, I call a person. Joe: Well, it's been absolutely brilliant talking to you, and I feel like we could talk to you for another two hours about this stuff, but we should wrap it up.

24:03

Joe: Anything you want to plug in terms of your streaming and stuff like that?

24:06

Florian: So I have two Twitch channels because I am a sadist, basically, but I have two Twitch channels and a YouTube channel.

24:14

Florian: And basically that happened because I started out as a gaming gaming streamer on Twitch and I do like accessible gaming stuff links in the video description.

24:26

Florian: Basically I do accessible gaming for people who use a screen reader.

24:30

Florian: so I pick up a game and I go see if it's playable.

24:33

Florian: I go see if I can Get anywhere with it.

24:36

Florian: And sometimes I know I will be able to and sometimes I don't.

24:39

Florian: so it's very like varied. Florian: And then at some point in my gaming stream, I said out loud like I wish I could do more like techie hacking coding stuff.

24:48

Florian: And um just right there. Florian: and then I came up with the username ic null which I found funny because hacking And blind.

24:55

Florian: so ic null then became my second channel, which is where I do try hack me.

25:00

Florian: I've been bashing Burp Suite a bit this week. Florian: I do programming, accessibility testing, all sorts of things that are very much not gaming.

25:07

Florian: So yeah, that's the big divide. Florian: And then to keep it consistent, I also have a YouTube channel called Blindly Coding, which basically archives both of those things.

25:15

Florian: I always keep a very open policy where my streams are concerned.

25:18

Florian: People can ask questions, people will not get yelled at if they offend people much.

25:23

Florian: And generally we'll try to make it a safe and educational environment.

25:27

Florian: So if you have questions or if you just want to see me ace Diablo 4, come see.

25:31

Joe: Well yeah, I'll put links to all your stuff in the show notes.

25:34

Joe: But we'd better get out of here. Joe: We'll be back in a couple of weeks.

25:37

Joe: But until then, I've been Joe. Chris: I've been Chris.

25:40

Gary: I've been Gary. Dalton: I've been Dalton. Florian: And I've been Florian.

25:43

Joe: See you later.