0:00

A warning before we begin, this

0:02

podcast is explicit in every way.

0:05

And this episode covers allegations

0:07

of sexual harassment.

0:09

For more than a year, Lauder was working

0:11

on a story about an almost 20-year-old lawsuit

0:14

in hip-hop. A lawsuit that alleged

0:17

sexual harassment and workplace discrimination

0:19

at a place that was the pinnacle of hip-hop journalism

0:22

at the time,

0:23

The Source magazine. A

0:25

story that centered on the plaintiff in the case,

0:28

the former editor-in-chief of The Source. Kim

0:31

Osorio.

0:33

Kim had sued the magazine's co-owners, Dave

0:36

Mays and Raymond Benzino-Scott,

0:38

and The Source magazine itself.

0:41

And through our reporting, we couldn't help but

0:43

hear the similarities between Kim's case

0:46

and the stories that were all over the news

0:48

during the height of the Me Too movement in 2017.

0:52

The biggest difference

0:53

was Kim was taking on hip-hop

0:55

years before that movement.

0:57

But then, on an

1:00

early afternoon in March, as we were putting the final

1:02

touches on it, this story

1:04

took a turn. Hey team, I just

1:06

received this notice from Dave Mays' lawyer

1:09

about a cease and desist order they're issuing to Kim,

1:11

saying she violated the terms of her settlement

1:14

agreement. I haven't read it in depth yet,

1:16

but I wanted to share it immediately. That's

1:19

the email my producer Sam J. Leeds sent the team. Dave

1:22

Mays

1:22

was telling us, via a lawyer, he

1:25

would potentially

1:26

sue Kim. Sam,

1:29

I'm not gonna lie, when you told me about

1:31

this email, my stomach dropped. What

1:33

was your first reaction? You

1:36

know, honestly, I actually didn't think that

1:38

the email was real. I thought

1:40

it might be spam. But then I took

1:42

a second look at the subject line and I saw Kim's name

1:44

in it. And I was like, ah, damn.

1:47

Yeah, I mean,

1:49

we've been working on this story for over a year. And

1:52

we fact checked this episode under

1:54

a microscope. Yeah, we really did.

1:57

And as a final step, like, you

1:59

know. all journalists do. I

2:02

decided to reach out to the former

2:04

co-owners of the source for comment on

2:06

the story months before it was set

2:08

to drop.

2:09

And Sid, I will never forget

2:12

getting that DM from one of the guys Kim

2:14

had sued. Oh my gosh. No,

2:16

you got to read it. You got to read it. Full it out. All right. All

2:19

right. So we started off by emailing

2:21

Benzino multiple times for comment.

2:23

We never got a response.

2:25

So we were like, all right, what if we try DMing

2:27

him on Twitter?

2:28

And journalism. Yeah. You

2:30

know, got to try all your avenues. And

2:34

he got back to us on Twitter and

2:36

the DM came through.

2:37

It has his little photo

2:40

with him in a hot tub shirtless. He's got his arm

2:42

propped up on the lip of the hot tub and he's like mean mugging

2:44

the camera with some sunglasses

2:47

on. And the contents of

2:49

the DM was just, is there a check

2:51

involved? Question mark. Right.

2:53

One line. And he wouldn't agree

2:56

to participate unless there was. And

2:58

y'all should know NPR does not pay

3:00

for interviews. Right. And as

3:02

for the other co-owner, Dave

3:05

Mays, we reached out to him back

3:08

at the end of last year and

3:10

never heard anything back and reached

3:12

out again, never heard anything back.

3:14

And then about six weeks before the

3:16

story was set to drop, we got CC'd on

3:19

that season desist from his lawyer. Yeah.

3:22

They were saying if she violated her settlement

3:24

agreement or defamed Dave, they'd

3:26

sue her. That's

3:28

why my stomach dropped. Because with

3:30

a scare tactic like

3:31

this of a season desist being deployed,

3:34

we knew from then on it was a possibility that

3:37

Kim could pull out of the story. Because

3:39

whether they have a legitimate claim or not, just

3:42

the threat of filing a lawsuit can

3:44

intimidate someone. There

3:47

wasn't really much we could do except

3:49

for just keep working on the story and

3:51

see how it all played

3:52

out. And then at the literal

3:54

12th hour, we got another email,

3:57

a new one. And it had one

3:59

of one of those little red exclamation points on it.

4:02

It really caught my eye when it first came through my inbox. Ugh,

4:05

yeah. And this time, the email

4:07

said that they had spoken to Kim and

4:10

that she wouldn't want NPR to feature her

4:12

interview. Yeah. And

4:15

so, we checked with Kim ourselves,

4:18

and ultimately, she decided she didn't

4:20

want to risk getting dragged into another costly,

4:23

lengthy lawsuit. She requested

4:25

that we pull all of her interviews from this story.

4:29

And that's what we did. Because

4:31

from

4:31

jump, we always agreed if we had

4:33

to choose between our sources'

4:34

safety and the story, we'd

4:37

choose their safety. So

4:39

you're

4:40

not going to hear Kim's actual voice

4:42

in this episode

4:43

at all. But

4:45

we're still going to tell this story.

4:48

Yeah, so what you are going to hear is

4:50

the court transcripts, the archival

4:53

footage, the many, many interviews

4:55

that we've done,

4:56

and Sid, you're also going to be reading a little

4:58

bit from Kim's book, because we do have

5:01

her words as she's written them. What

5:03

you're going to hear in this episode

5:05

and what went down while we made it,

5:07

it makes it even more clear why hip hop

5:09

still hasn't had a me too reckoning.

5:13

Let's get into it. Let's do it. I'm

5:22

Sydney Madden. I'm Rodney Carmichael.

5:26

And from NPR Music, this is Louder Than a Riot.

5:30

Where we confront the double standard, that's

5:32

become the standard. On every episode

5:34

this season, we tackle one unwritten rule

5:37

of hip hop that affects the most marginalized

5:39

among us and holds the entire culture

5:41

back. And one that a new generation

5:43

of rap refuses to stand for. With

5:47

one court case, Kim not only changed

5:50

the trajectory of her career, she

5:52

put a whole industry on notice.

5:54

And by the time the source was hip hop's

5:56

gold standard

5:58

in journalism. and

6:00

many other women dealt with behind the scenes

6:02

at the source, it was a standard far

6:04

from gold. And when Kim decided to speak

6:07

up about it, she learned just

6:09

how grimy things could get. On

6:12

this episode, we take you through a case that

6:14

predates the Me Too movement to show

6:17

why hip-hop was never really part of it. And

6:20

we tap in with advocates who continue to fight for

6:22

one, because whether it's in the courtroom

6:24

or the community, there's

6:26

still structures in place that

6:29

show it's safer to keep quiet. On

6:31

this episode, rule number five, if

6:34

you see something, say nothing.

6:48

What did you know about the source before Kim

6:50

started working there? So before Kim

6:52

started working there, I just knew it as, you

6:54

know, one of the magazines, you know,

6:57

the Bible, if you will, for hip-hop.

7:00

Tia Bowman is Kim Osorio's best friend.

7:02

She has been for decades. Both New

7:05

York natives, the two of them became friends

7:07

back in law school. Tia's her ride

7:09

or die, even before Kim's source

7:11

days. And like Kim, Tia's

7:14

a huge hip-hop fan. I mean, it was double

7:16

XL, but, you know, it's never,

7:19

in my mind, was on the same level as

7:21

the source.

7:23

The source just had this, like, to the

7:25

streets, like, truth about it, this grit about

7:27

it. It set the standard. Man,

7:29

listen, Tia ain't lying. It

7:31

cannot be overstated how big the

7:34

source was to hip-hop. The source magazine,

7:36

home of hip-hop music, culture, and politics.

7:39

I don't need to look for shit.

7:42

Everybody be real in that noise. Source is number

7:44

one on the right. If you ain't got it, you ought to get it.

7:46

We're talking 90s to early 2000s source, when

7:50

it was the ultimate in hip-hop journalism. It

7:52

didn't just capture the biggest moments of the culture. It

7:55

set the tone.

7:56

Yeah, and no one rapper was bigger

7:58

than the source. That's because the source made it. I mean,

8:01

even Puppy signed Biggie after Maddie C. wrote

8:03

him up in the magazine's unsigned hype section. Mm-hmm. Right. It

8:06

was a publication that respected the art of hip-hop

8:09

and wrote about it with prestige. I had a friend

8:11

who had every issue, and I would go to his house

8:13

and read it 10 times in a row just

8:16

to remember the writing. The

8:18

source. It's the truth. Whatever you see in the

8:20

sources is what's happening.

8:23

It's what's hot. It's what it is. The

8:25

emergence of

8:25

the source, you know, that's

8:28

really what solidifies culture. You

8:30

have to have something to document it in. And

8:32

the source did it, did it really, really, really

8:34

well. One of the best ways they did that

8:37

was with the record report, the sources album

8:39

review section. Now, this was the ultimate

8:41

in hip-hop tastemaking. And if you were skilled

8:44

enough to cop a 5-mic review, you had an instant classic

8:46

on your hands.

8:47

The source got so big, they threw

8:49

their own source awards.

8:51

And now people all over the

8:53

world, it's

8:55

the source, hip-hop musical board. The

8:59

rap community is very diverse, and

9:01

that is being represented here at the source awards.

9:04

I think the source is right on the money. Call

9:06

right now and get a year subscription for only $19.95.

9:09

You knew what time it was from the first issue of the source. We

9:11

knew it was going to blow. Yeah,

9:13

the source was the hip-hop Bible. If you wanted

9:16

to cover the culture, this is where

9:18

you wanted to be. Now, see,

9:20

I know you spent a lot of time talking to people who came

9:22

through the source back in the day. Mm-hmm. And

9:25

I started with Aaliyah King-Neil.

9:27

Before I get to the source, I have

9:29

this vision that it's like, I

9:31

don't know if the term ghetto fabulous is a thing

9:33

yet at this time, probably. But that's

9:36

what I'm thinking. Back

9:38

in the late 90s, the source was

9:40

Aaliyah's dream job. Walking in

9:42

on her first day, she was hyped. I

9:44

don't have to tap into that memory

9:46

because I remember that moment,

9:50

like it was literally this morning.

9:53

The source at this time was

9:55

organized with cubicles

9:57

and... offices

10:00

that lined Park Avenue South.

10:03

The cubicles were known as the projects because

10:05

it's just all these personalities and all these people

10:08

crammed together, trying to get out. So

10:11

I'm in the projects. The main thing

10:13

I can see or hear is just

10:14

noise. It

10:18

was just so loud and

10:20

so raucous and

10:22

so, like I could barely

10:25

think when I sat down to start getting

10:27

myself together. I was just like,

10:30

why doesn't anybody use headphones? Like, why

10:33

is everyone playing their boombox at

10:36

maximum level when you're sitting

10:38

next to somebody else playing it? I just

10:40

didn't understand. And it was all different songs?

10:43

All different songs.

10:45

Behind me is Gotti with Supreme

10:47

Fine Tell, Eminem's stand, 20

10:50

times in a row. Our

10:53

West Coast editor playing anything

10:56

West Coast.

10:59

Y'all were two of the only

11:02

women on the floor in the room. No,

11:06

there were lots of women on the floor. In the music

11:08

department, it was just us.

11:10

And with it being just them two, Aaliyah

11:13

and Mitchie wasn't exactly happy to see

11:15

Kim on that first day.

11:17

I have to say that when I first met Kim, I was not

11:19

feeling her. I felt very threatened.

11:22

I was very nervous and I was the only woman

11:24

in the music department and

11:26

I just was concerned. Is she coming

11:28

here to try to get my job? When she came,

11:31

somebody parked her at my desk. Just

11:33

sit here, Aaliyah's traveling for a story. Just sit here,

11:35

we'll get you together. I had come back early. I

11:38

come in and this person is at my desk.

11:40

And I could tell within three seconds

11:43

that she was powerful

11:46

and that she was dope, just like me. We

11:50

both looked at each other like, oh, this bitch. We

11:52

just know, you know when somebody is

11:54

on your level. But after Aaliyah got

11:57

over that initial competitiveness, her

11:59

and Kim got cool. Being the only

12:01

women in the music department was part of what bonded

12:03

them.

12:04

They figured out how to navigate this office together. Of

12:06

course I can only speak on myself, you

12:08

know, and Kim as well, because we had two different forms

12:11

of that, is needing

12:13

to be non-threatening.

12:18

For Aaliyah,

12:19

the strategy was to hide in plain sight.

12:21

Backpack, baggy pants, tims.

12:24

I can't look like a guy, obviously,

12:27

but I'm trying to be as tomboyish

12:30

as I can. It's as deep as

12:32

rounded shoulders when I'm not a

12:34

rounded shoulders person. I'm a back straight

12:37

up person. So I give off this

12:39

aura of non-threatening,

12:42

still cute,

12:44

and dressed down, and

12:46

quiet. Just be quiet,

12:49

you know? So you thought you had to be cute but not

12:51

too cute. Correct. And not sexy.

12:54

Definitely not sexy. Because why? Because

12:56

you would just stand out. You would just look

12:59

weird.

13:02

But no matter how Aaliyah tried not to stand out,

13:05

she couldn't always hide. Some

13:07

men in the office were just always trying to overstep.

13:10

There's this one person, I want

13:12

to say, not in the music department,

13:15

who I had to get to sign off on paperwork

13:17

sometimes. And his

13:19

desk was a couple offices away

13:22

from where I sat in the projects. I

13:24

learned really quickly that you don't want to

13:27

be alone in the office with him.

13:30

His hands were, he was a little touchy-feely.

13:32

He was a little reaching

13:35

in for a kiss and all kinds of stuff. And

13:37

I was like, ooh, I don't like this. So

13:39

my first step was to make sure that I

13:42

left the door open when I came in. My

13:44

second step was to take a buddy. Take

13:47

one of my friends and be like, I got to go to someone's social office. Can

13:49

you please come with me? My third

13:51

thing was, hey, I got

13:53

to go to Jude's office

13:56

in two minutes. If you

13:58

don't see me coming back to my office... Come

14:00

get me. As

14:03

time went on, Kim and Aaliyah would learn, the

14:06

environment at the source was overall

14:08

foul. It was everywhere. Men

14:11

would slap women's butts, buy

14:13

inappropriate gifts for them, they'd

14:16

tack pictures of porn to their cubicles, and

14:19

even watch porn in the office. Sexism

14:21

at the source was the norm. And

14:24

it wasn't a secret. It wasn't even

14:26

seen as bad, especially by

14:28

management. Because in reality,

14:32

it was top-down.

14:38

If it's a boys club, and it's

14:41

smack and girl butts in the office, if

14:43

it's all this happening, where

14:46

did that start? If it's intense,

14:49

were the people intense when they came?

14:51

Or did it become an intense environment once

14:53

they got there? That I'm not

14:56

sure of.

14:57

How does this environment happen? Who

14:59

was in charge of the boys club?

15:01

Well, at the source, it was

15:03

the two co-owners, Dave Mays.

15:06

We did it the right way, you know what I mean? We kept

15:09

it street, kept it real, kept it hip-hop.

15:12

We didn't answer nobody. We owned

15:14

and controlled our own thing. And Raymond Scott, AKA Ben Zino.

15:15

Dysfunctional,

15:20

as it may have seemed. The relationship

15:23

between me and Dave and how it was was kind of made

15:25

the source what it was. Dave being from college, I'm

15:27

being from the streets. It just came from two perspectives,

15:30

and that's how we ran the magazine.

15:32

That's the two of them on drink jams back in 2020. When

15:35

Ray says they had two different perspectives,

15:38

he's definitely right.

15:39

Standing next to each other, they even look

15:41

like polar opposites. Dave,

15:44

a white Jewish guy with a short slick back

15:46

cut and a quiet presence. And

15:48

Ray, a light-skinned black guy with

15:50

arms full of tattoos and a boisterous

15:52

loud mouth. The source

15:54

actually started as a newsletter out of Dave's

15:57

Harvard dorm room in 1988. After

16:00

staff shakeups along the way, Benzino

16:02

was brought in. Or forced

16:04

his way in, depending on who you ask.

16:07

As a partner to give the mag more street

16:09

credibility.

16:10

Ray took that power and he ran with it.

16:13

Dave was almost at Benzino's

16:15

mercy. It seemed like Dave

16:18

was almost in

16:20

an unenviable position. He

16:22

was the guy who had to carry out Benzino's

16:25

will, as it related to the

16:27

source at least. That's Kari Turner,

16:30

a former freelancer for the source. He could be

16:32

erratic, he could be combative.

16:34

He wanted to be seen as creative.

16:37

He wanted to be respected as an MC. But

16:40

that sometimes the combative side

16:42

and the hard edge outshone

16:45

his talent as an artist. Reputation

16:47

wise, he was a street cat. He was hard and

16:50

he had a large crew. And

16:52

Benzino was not a code switcher. In

16:54

hip hop as an artist, it was appropriate. But

16:57

in the source, it wasn't always appropriate.

16:59

Aaliyah remembers one specific time

17:01

that Benzino tried to flex his power. So

17:03

Ray comes out with a stack of

17:06

checks. And I was like, well, this is unusual.

17:09

Like, why do you have the checks? But okay, fine,

17:11

just give me my check. He has a stack of the checks

17:13

and he has a stack of CDs of his

17:15

new CD.

17:17

So he puts your check

17:19

on your desk and then he takes the CD

17:21

and puts it on top of your check and gives

17:23

you a look like, don't forget where

17:25

this check is coming from.

17:27

All this was the culture Kim was dealing with too.

17:30

But she figured out a way to work with Ray and Dave.

17:33

And at one point, she even considered her relationship with Ray

17:35

friendly.

17:36

To keep it that way, she had to ignore

17:38

how Ray was treating other women in the office.

17:41

But you know what? Despite all this, she

17:44

was killing it at the mag. And

17:46

she was having fun.

17:49

I went to so many interviews with her,

17:51

like so many people. Kim's best friend

17:54

Tia was definitely enjoying the perks

17:56

of Kim's success. She interviewed Destiny's

17:59

child in the Hilton.

17:59

hotel on 7th Avenue in

18:02

Manhattan and we were in a little single

18:04

room with two twin beds and

18:06

so all four Destiny's Child

18:09

members were there and Kim and I, so we were

18:11

all in very close space

18:12

because it was a small hotel

18:14

room. Right, right. And you were

18:16

her writer that every step of the way you were always like her

18:18

plus one? Always her plus

18:20

one, you know, always her, let

18:22

me run it by Tia. Between 2000

18:26

and 2002, Kim landed

18:28

interviews and cover stories with

18:30

the likes of Snoop Dogg, Trick Daddy,

18:32

Trina, Wu-Tang Clan, Lil

18:35

Kim, Foxy Brown, and more. It

18:38

was Kim who was responsible for writing Nas's 5-mic

18:40

review on Stillmatic. It was Kim

18:42

who brokered the Jay-Z and Rockefeller cover.

18:46

In early 2002, after all this

18:48

work, Dave and Ray offered Kim

18:50

the position of editor-in-chief. It

18:52

was huge. She was the first female

18:55

editor-in-chief and it

18:57

was The Source magazine. You

19:00

know, this is a huge big deal in

19:02

anybody's career and then

19:05

her being a female from

19:07

the Bronx, you know, out here doing

19:09

this on her own, this was

19:11

a phenomenal achievement.

19:14

It may have been a big achievement,

19:16

but Ray and Dave weren't going to make it easy.

19:19

In Kim's book, she writes that after initially

19:21

telling her she got the job, they made her wait

19:23

eight months before officially announcing it and

19:26

they were making her do the work the whole time without

19:28

the title. She didn't let that

19:30

stop her though because she had a vision for

19:32

the mag.

19:33

She wanted to get more enterprise reporting into the pages,

19:36

like a freelance story by Khari about

19:38

rape culture and hip-hop. I wanted to give

19:41

the culture an opportunity to take an honest look

19:43

at itself. I wanted to use my platform

19:45

and my position as a writer to advance that

19:47

conversation, to give artists

19:50

and executives an opportunity

19:52

to comment on it.

19:53

She responded really favorably when

19:56

I pitched the story to her. She told me

19:58

up front, you know, I think it's a great idea. I would love

20:00

to do it. Let's see if we

20:02

can make it happen.

20:03

Cam was with it.

20:05

Rain, Dave, not so much.

20:07

I think their response was

20:09

that nobody wanted to read about that.

20:11

I felt that

20:13

any man asked to support such

20:15

a story

20:16

meant that the

20:17

answer could be no.

20:19

Because men's perspective on

20:22

rape and rape culture

20:23

can sometimes be like

20:25

white people's perspectives on black

20:28

life. According to Kim's book,

20:31

they told her, quote, niggas ain't trying to

20:33

hear all that. They want to fuck. And

20:35

that the story was, quote, woman shit.

20:38

If your response is, is women shit, well,

20:41

how do you feel about that women shit?

20:43

Ray and Dave's opinions on women shit went

20:45

beyond that story. One

20:47

time, another male executive in the office told

20:50

Kim that because she was a woman, Ray

20:52

and Dave thought she was, quote, too weak-minded

20:55

to stay EIC. They

20:57

weren't just saying it behind her back either.

20:59

Benzino told Kim repeatedly

21:02

he, quote, needed a man

21:04

to do her job. The

21:06

long hours, the boys' club,

21:09

the office politics, it

21:11

was starting to wear on Kim. And

21:13

on top of all that, Ray started

21:16

pressing her. Pretty soon after

21:18

she got the EIC title, Ray

21:20

started talking to her about his sex life. And

21:22

asking about hers, he would

21:24

not let up. This wasn't

21:27

unusual for Benzino when it came to other women on

21:29

staff,

21:29

but it was new for Kim. He

21:32

was especially obsessed with who in

21:34

the industry she was sleeping with. And

21:37

he would ask her again and again and again.

21:41

Kim details this in her book. Let

21:43

me just read from it. Quote, come

21:46

on, Kim. Why don't you tell me who you slept

21:48

with? I already know. Just

21:50

tell me. Admit it. It's not

21:52

that I was ashamed to tell Ray whom I'd been

21:55

with. It was that I knew exactly

21:57

what he wanted to know. I

22:01

knew that he would use it against me. Kim

22:03

tried to dodge these questions, but

22:05

he only got more persistent. And

22:08

according to her, one late night as they

22:10

were leaving the office, Rae got

22:12

way out of pocket. They

22:14

were in an elevator together, when Rae said, quote, why

22:18

don't you come out to Atlantic City with me? We'll

22:20

have a good time. Atlantic

22:22

City? For what? Come

22:25

on, think about it. We can have fun. Don't

22:28

you think we would make a good couple? Couple?

22:32

We would be the king and queen of the source. I

22:35

was running out of ways to be nice as we

22:37

made our way out the elevator. Come

22:40

on, I got a room in Atlantic City. You could

22:43

stay with me. I'm not going

22:45

to Atlantic City with you. As

22:47

the elevator dinged open, Kim

22:49

thought it was over.

22:52

But Rae didn't leave it there.

22:54

Kim says she never gave him her home number, but

22:57

later that night, he called her repeatedly

22:59

at home, 10 times on her

23:01

cell and five times on the house phone,

23:04

trying to convince her to change her mind. And

23:07

from what he did next, it was

23:09

clear Rae did not like to be told no. If

23:12

he couldn't have Kim, then she couldn't have

23:14

her privacy. Kim

23:16

got word that he started spreading her business all

23:18

around town, saying that she

23:20

was sleeping with rappers. She

23:23

writes, I wasn't surprised that both Rae

23:25

and Dave have been talking behind my back. I've

23:27

spoken to former male editors of the magazine

23:30

who were never asked the same questions. So

23:33

why was my situation so different?

23:35

Why the fuck are they so obsessed with my sex

23:37

life? Kim had put up with

23:40

a lot for her love of hip hop, but

23:42

she was reaching her breaking point. She

23:45

met with a lawyer who listened to her situation

23:48

and told her to file a complaint with human resources.

23:51

The lawyer told her, they can't fire you

23:53

for complaining, but she was still

23:55

nervous. Kim knew it

23:58

might've been against the law for them to do. But

24:00

she writes, the source didn't always follow

24:02

the letter of the law anyway. I remember

24:04

us talking about this because she was going to lose her

24:07

job. She thought she was going to be blackballed in the

24:09

industry because she's

24:11

making this sort of

24:13

accusation. On the night of February 23, 2005,

24:18

just like when Kim first got offered the Editor-in-Chief

24:20

job,

24:21

she called up Tia.

24:23

She was scared to do it.

24:26

And she'll tell you sometimes, like, I bully

24:28

her into things. It's like, but I'm not bullying her. Like,

24:30

I'm giving her. I'm

24:32

pushing her in a direction that I know she wants

24:35

to go, but she's sometimes,

24:37

you know, nervous to do it. Kim needed

24:39

Tia's help writing an HR complaint. One

24:42

that would make it all official.

24:44

We were choosing

24:46

the sentence structure and

24:48

the words

24:50

very purposefully

24:53

and concisely.

24:56

The email was short and to the point. As

24:59

the head of human resources, I am notifying

25:01

you that I have been discriminated against on the basis

25:04

of my gender. This unlawful discrimination

25:07

must come to an end.

25:09

Once you hit send, there's no coming back. She

25:11

knew it.

25:12

Kim hit send. And

25:15

after that, all she could

25:17

do was wait.

25:26

I heard about it just, you know,

25:29

I guess in the news or whatever. And my first thought was, why? Like,

25:33

why? Why are you doing this? Aaliyah

25:36

had already left the source when she first

25:38

heard about a

25:39

lawsuit involving her former employer and

25:41

her friend Kim. Because in my mind, you know,

25:43

you got to get thrown out of a window to

25:46

want to file a lawsuit. Because

25:48

we were all so trained

25:49

to think, if it's just a lawsuit, you know, you're

25:51

going to have to get thrown out of a window to want to

25:54

file a lawsuit. I mean, to think,

25:56

if it's just this, then

25:58

it's okay. Just deal with it.

26:00

As sad as it is, my first thought was, was

26:02

it really that deep? Whatever

26:04

happened, was it that deep that you now want to go through a whole

26:06

thing? I want to make it clear that I'm

26:08

talking about my 25-year-old self

26:10

and I'm 50. Right. And the internalized misogyny

26:13

that we all carry with us. Exactly. And so

26:15

if you're a woman in hip-hop,

26:17

if you're not ready to accept a certain amount of misogyny,

26:20

you need to go someplace. You need to just go listen

26:22

to hip-hop in your room. There's not a

26:24

single woman in this industry in hip-hop

26:27

who can say, I never had to deal with any

26:30

of this stuff. And if I did, I always did.

26:32

X, Y, Z. No, you didn't. You had to deal

26:34

with it and you didn't always do something about it.

26:36

None of us. Absolutely

26:39

none of us. So my

26:41

thought was, is this what it had to be? Aliyah's

26:44

first thought wasn't wrong. After

26:46

sending that HR complaint in February 2005, Kim

26:49

didn't hear anything. It was crickets

26:52

for two weeks until

26:55

she got a call from Ray and Dave cursing

26:57

at her.

26:58

They wanted her to retract her complaint.

27:01

She refused. So

27:04

they fired her. And just

27:06

like that,

27:07

Kim's time at the source,

27:09

her dream job was over. In

27:12

her book,

27:13

she writes that she was jilted,

27:15

angry, but also prepared.

27:19

A lawsuit was my next step. I

27:21

knew it wouldn't be easy, but in the end,

27:24

it was a step I had to take.

27:26

Not for monetary recovery,

27:28

but because of principle.

27:30

In April 2005, Kim filed

27:31

a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity

27:34

Commission. Then she filed

27:36

a suit that Aliyah had heard about

27:38

against the source,

27:40

Dave and Ray.

27:42

Kim was suing them for workplace sexual harassment,

27:45

gender-based discrimination, and

27:47

retaliation. Aliyah

27:49

was worried for Kim about how ugly the trial

27:52

might get. I remember asking her, like,

27:54

what if they bring up,

27:56

like, dudes or, like,

27:59

relationships? She

28:01

was like, what they gonna say? I don't

28:03

have what? They gonna talk shit about me. They gonna talk about

28:05

who I had sex with. They gonna talk about, you know, what I did here, what

28:08

I did there. That's fine. I

28:10

can take that.

28:11

And if it means that you feel more comfortable, good.

28:13

And, you know, for me

28:15

at that time, I would

28:17

have just been horrified to have my

28:20

business in the street. But, you know, I knew

28:22

she did her homework. I knew she

28:24

was prepared. And I knew that if

28:26

she did it, she was ready to do it. Aliyah

28:28

had reason to be worried, though, because

28:30

as soon as the suit went public,

28:33

they did drag Kim's name through the mud.

28:36

In a radio interview, Ray said she

28:38

was incompetent, a slut, and

28:40

liked the fast lifestyle.

28:42

In a written interview with AllHipHop.com, Dave

28:45

said, quote, it is a fact that

28:47

Ms. Osorio had sexual relations with a

28:49

number of high-profile rap artists during

28:52

her employment as editor-in-chief.

28:54

Because of all this talk, Kim added

28:56

a defamation claim onto the suit.

28:59

Now, on top of all this mess, or

29:02

maybe because of it, no one

29:04

would give Kim a job.

29:06

She was out of work for eight months.

29:08

Just as she predicted,

29:10

she was getting blackballed by the industry.

29:12

There's

29:12

a woman in this business, they don't really

29:14

care about how good you are at your

29:16

job. All they cared about was, who does she

29:18

sleep with?

29:19

There was one person willing to give her a chance.

29:22

A VP at BET. Rhonda

29:25

Cowan. They would define you by

29:27

people that you dated, people that you slept

29:29

with, people they thought you slept with. They

29:32

would make it up if it wasn't true.

29:33

Rhonda had been in the business longer than Kim,

29:35

so she knew what it was. To

29:38

her, Kim's situation wasn't nothing new. She

29:41

offered Kim the job. I took a chance. I knew

29:43

that she knew music and she was good, so I convinced

29:45

my boss to give her a try. She

29:48

could learn how to work

29:50

with all the technology,

29:52

but you can't learn the music. One of

29:54

Kim's first assignments at BET had

29:56

her flying down to Miami

29:58

to do an interview at a boat park.

30:02

Irv Gotti, head of Murder Inc.,

30:05

had just gotten acquitted of money laundering and

30:07

Rhonda knew Kim had an in. Kim had

30:10

a relationship with Irv. She knew him and he trusted

30:12

her.

30:12

So she reached out.

30:14

He agreed to do an interview. And something told

30:17

me that Kim might need security

30:19

because I had a feeling that

30:22

Benzino might be there. We get on the boat

30:24

and we are having a conversation

30:27

and all of a sudden I see Kim's face

30:29

change. She went from animated

30:31

talking to like, you could see the

30:33

energy just drain out of her.

30:37

Benzino walks up and he just kind

30:39

of is like, oh, what's up, Kim? And

30:41

he made a comment like, oh, you got security

30:44

or whatever. Now it's a thing. The security

30:46

guy looked and he like, what's up? That's

30:49

when Benzino started to pick a fight with security.

30:52

Now it's like a whole like man

30:54

thing. So I remember

30:58

Benzino walking away, me walking

31:00

behind him and saying, what is going on? Like

31:02

what are you doing right now? And

31:04

them asking us to leave the boat and

31:06

Benzino still yelling and screaming. So we

31:09

know we left.

31:13

And by we, Rhonda means her,

31:16

Kim, their camera crew

31:18

and the bodyguard had to get off the boat.

31:21

Benzino was allowed to stay.

31:23

What do you think it says that Y'all were asked

31:26

to leave the boat and not Benzino, the one who started

31:28

the... I mean, here's

31:30

the thing again, here's the boys club, right? So

31:33

he's not going to ask his mans and them to leave.

31:35

He's going to ask us.

31:36

What did that interaction tell

31:38

you about the environment she was coming from?

31:41

Benzino, why are you here in her face? Do

31:43

you want to go to jail next? Like what's happening? What's

31:46

going to happen? You know what I mean? I didn't

31:48

know. I just felt, I always felt she was unsafe.

31:50

Getting up to the trial, this

31:52

was the type of tension Kim was dealing with.

31:55

On October 11, 2006, the trial finally started.

31:59

took place at New York's Southern District

32:02

Courthouse in Lower Manhattan. Our

32:05

team looked through hundreds of pages of trial transcripts,

32:08

and there was a lot that came out in court about

32:11

Ray, Dave, and the culture

32:13

at the source. Witnesses

32:15

testified under oath to pretty much everything we'd

32:17

heard from Aliyah, Khari,

32:19

and what we read in Kim's book.

32:22

But witnesses also revealed a whole lot

32:24

more going on. Here's just

32:26

some. Ray touched women in the

32:28

office inappropriately, went in for hugs, touched

32:30

shoulders, was handsy with the most junior staffers.

32:33

Ray snapped the underwear of a woman staffer in the

32:35

presence of Dave, and Dave did nothing about

32:37

it. Just left the room. Ray watched porn

32:39

in the office mail. The HR rep for the source ignored

32:41

multiple complaints, and even referred to her own dynamic

32:44

with Ray as being, quote, like Ike

32:46

and Tina Turner. And

32:48

all this didn't even include acts where Kim

32:51

was the target.

32:52

Every time Kim's lawyer brought up something

32:54

to show how bad the environment at the source was,

32:57

how bad Ray and Dave's behavior was, the

33:00

defense threw it back on Kim,

33:02

specifically her love of hip-hop.

33:04

Like, what did you expect?

33:06

We had some of the louder

33:08

team members read transcripts of an example

33:10

in office where Ray said

33:12

in front of Kim

33:14

that a female artist they put on the cover had

33:16

a, quote, fat pussy. Mrs.

33:18

Osorio, you've listened to hip-hop

33:21

uncensored, correct? Yes.

33:23

You consider yourself an expert at hip-hop,

33:26

right? Yeah, yes.

33:28

Ray's lawyer asked Kim if she's familiar

33:31

with Jackie O's album, Poe Lil Rich

33:33

Girl. Do you recall the song which was called

33:36

Pussy Real Good? Yes. And

33:38

Pussy Real Good was profiled in the source magazine

33:40

when you were editor-in-chief, correct? I

33:43

believe Jackie O was profiled in the story.

33:45

See, the corner they're trying to back

33:48

Kim into is how could she be offended

33:50

by this word if she wrote positively about a song

33:52

that uses it? This is what we call DARVO, D-A-R-V-O.

33:57

This is Erika Vladimir.

33:59

She's a lawyer. advocate for reforming

34:01

sexual harassment law in the state of New York. And

34:04

this is a tactic that is used

34:07

most often in cases of

34:10

sexual abuse or sexual harassment by

34:13

the alleged perpetrator,

34:15

where they deny the

34:18

accusations, they attack

34:21

the victim, and then they reverse

34:24

the victim and offender. That's

34:26

the RVO of it. In

34:29

practice, it looks like the alleged

34:31

offender flipping the script

34:35

and claiming that it's actually the victim

34:37

who's the person who created harm.

34:41

Kim being able to do her job despite the

34:43

work environment was also used against

34:45

her. It's called the Severe

34:48

or Pervasive Standard. And

34:50

basically, this meant that Kim had

34:52

to show that in

34:56

her work environment, it was so

34:58

the hostility of the work

35:00

environment was so

35:02

severe in one

35:05

instance, or so pervasive

35:08

over a number of instances,

35:10

that

35:11

it interfered with her ability

35:13

to complete her job, to

35:16

succeed in taking on her

35:18

job responsibilities. This

35:20

standard Erica's talking about makes

35:23

it extremely hard to win harassment cases.

35:26

So if Kim was still getting magazine

35:29

covers, still hitting it out of the park in her

35:31

job, yeah, that could essentially work against

35:33

her. It's also a big reason why so few

35:35

sexual harassment cases even make it to trial.

35:38

It solidifies the fact that the Severe

35:41

Pervasive Standard is such

35:43

an insurmountable hurdle for

35:46

people who are harmed to be able

35:48

to overcome. Because of the Severe

35:50

Pervasive Standard, Erica says

35:52

no matter what industry, a certain

35:55

level of harassment is legally allowed

35:57

in the workplace. And regardless

35:59

of the law,

35:59

Lots of people just see it as

36:02

normal. When you're in

36:04

front of a jury of your peers, this

36:07

is a cohort of

36:09

people who have ingrained

36:11

in their heads that this

36:14

is standard. That we should have to deal

36:16

with ass grabs

36:19

and being cursed at, and

36:22

being hit on constantly, and followed

36:24

down a hallway and begged to come to

36:27

Atlantic City, and be fearful

36:29

that if we don't say yes to any

36:31

of the above, that we are

36:33

suddenly going to lose our jobs. That's

36:36

still the case.

36:38

It's not just ingrained in the legal

36:40

system. It's been normalized in

36:42

hip-hop forever. So for people who

36:44

knew both these worlds intimately,

36:47

watching the trial go down

36:49

was twice as nerve-wracking. It was certainly a

36:51

big deal, and it was— I remember feeling

36:53

a little bit— I guess scary

36:55

is the— It felt a little bit scary. That's Serana

36:57

Burke, organizer, activist,

37:00

and teacher. As a lover of hip-hop

37:02

born in the BX in the 70s, just

37:05

like him, she knew the double-edged

37:07

sword of loving this culture. You

37:09

know, loving Biggie, and you

37:11

will be in the midst of loving the song,

37:14

getting into the song, and then they just drop these lines

37:16

out of nowhere, and it's just like you hate us,

37:19

and we have to live with that.

37:22

You know, I like him young, fresh, and

37:23

green, with no hair in between, no whatever.

37:26

No, she ain't the strong, no

37:28

nothing wrong. Biggie, what am

37:30

I supposed to make of that line? That

37:33

is the heartbreak

37:35

of being a woman who loves hip-hop.

37:38

Because of that heartbreak, Serana

37:40

knew how complicated it was to call out hip-hop,

37:42

like Kim was doing. Like, I hope

37:45

she comes out of this with her career

37:48

and doesn't get, you know, damage

37:50

from this. Hip-hop is a powerful

37:53

industry, and

37:54

men have a lot of

37:56

power inside of this industry, and...

38:00

I'm sure they have tried to wipe her out.

38:02

While Serana was following Kim's gaze, hoping

38:04

she'd make it through, there were other women

38:06

watching who low-key felt like

38:08

Kim was getting what she deserved. The reality

38:11

is that most women in

38:13

the culture did not like and

38:15

did not want to work with Kim Osorio. This

38:18

is Rosa Clemente.

38:19

She's an activist in the hip-hop feminist space

38:22

and a freelance journalist too.

38:24

And Rosa was no stranger to interrogating the culture.

38:27

The way she remembers it,

38:28

Kim had a reputation outside of the source.

38:31

And it wasn't the one the tabloids were talking about.

38:33

To Rosa and her people, Kim only covered

38:36

big money rappers.

38:37

She wasn't down for the cause.

38:39

There were incidences where

38:42

we were fighting to get these

38:45

really amazing hip-hop

38:47

lyricists that were also very politically

38:49

minded. And many of them were also

38:52

organizers in their own right. And

38:55

she refused to ever

38:56

put these people on the cover. So

39:01

she was not someone that

39:03

we as hip-hop women and feminists

39:05

really got along

39:08

with. Okay, what Rosa's saying here

39:11

is an essential distinction.

39:13

I kind of think of it as the dichotomy of

39:15

Kim's power in all this.

39:18

Because as we've heard from her peers and

39:20

right between the lines,

39:22

Kim did uphold some of the boys' club culture

39:24

herself when it was the cost of getting things

39:26

done. There were definitely times

39:28

when she looked the other way.

39:30

But remember, if you saw

39:32

or experienced anything,

39:35

the rule was to keep quiet about it.

39:37

See something, say nothing.

39:40

And with the soup, it was a rule

39:43

Kim broke.

39:44

And then I kind of began to see her

39:46

in a different light, like, damn, what would

39:48

it be like to work at the source? I knew

39:50

a lot of people. I knew the editors. I

39:52

knew people in the past. And I

39:55

just thought to myself, at

39:57

the end of the day, she was threatened like

39:59

this.

39:59

and we're dealing with all this misogyny and

40:02

patriarchy, but also a lot of these

40:04

guys were like physically threatened

40:06

they would run up on us if they didn't like

40:09

something we said or wrote. Like what

40:11

we're fighting for is for all women

40:13

in hip hop to be treated with dignity and

40:16

equity. So maybe we don't like

40:18

Kim for whatever reason, but

40:20

we have to support her. One

40:22

thing as an organizer

40:24

and what I've been taught is

40:27

that a lot of things shouldn't be personal.

40:30

Like I shouldn't have to be friends

40:32

with Kim and Sario to know that

40:34

harm has been done against

40:37

her. What Kim was going through stuck with

40:39

Rosa. When it started making news,

40:42

I did reach out to Kim. I

40:45

said, no matter what happens, we have to tell

40:47

this story. And I'm really

40:49

deeply sorry for you and the way

40:52

you've been treated by all these men.

40:54

Kim wasn't about to hear

40:56

any kind of apologies in the courtroom though. As

40:59

the case went on for two weeks, Rae

41:01

started acting out. According

41:03

to court transcripts, the judge was considering

41:06

holding Rae in contempt. Why?

41:09

Because when Kim's lawyer walked by Rae during

41:11

a break, Rae yelled at him, coward,

41:14

uncle Tom, chump.

41:17

Then

41:18

when Kim walked by, he yelled at her

41:20

too.

41:22

When court is back in session, Rae tries to deny

41:24

this to the judge, but the judge

41:26

gives him the option of sitting in the courtroom or leaving.

41:30

He opts to be escorted out by the court-martial.

41:33

At the end of the trial, after all

41:35

the evidence and antics, Kim's

41:37

lawyer made an impassioned closing argument.

41:41

He told the jury,

41:42

The eyes of a hip hop music industry

41:44

are upon you. You have a great

41:46

opportunity here, a great opportunity

41:49

to impose standards on that industry and

41:51

standards on other parts of the music industry. You

41:54

have a chance to teach them something about dignity.

41:58

You have a chance to teach them something about respect.

41:59

Raymond Scott

42:02

and David Mays acted with total malice

42:04

toward Kimberly Osorio. They

42:06

should be held accountable. You

42:08

should hold Raymond Scott accountable. You

42:11

should hold David Mays accountable.

42:14

You should hold the source magazine

42:16

accountable.

42:17

From there, the case

42:19

was in the jury's hands. There

42:21

was nothing more Kim could do.

42:24

Again, but wait. On

42:30

October 23, 2006,

42:34

the jury finally rendered a verdict.

42:40

In the end, the jury of six men

42:43

and two women found that Ray and Dave

42:45

firing Kim was retaliation

42:47

for that email. And that Ray defamed

42:50

her in interviews after they fired her. But

42:52

as for working in a hostile environment

42:55

and being a victim of sexual harassment and gender

42:57

discrimination, those claims were dismissed.

42:59

Rosa Clemente remembers

43:02

reading the verdict. I already was

43:04

like, I gotta write this story when she

43:06

wins. And everybody's like, she's not gonna

43:08

win. And I'm like, yes, she is. And

43:10

even though Kim didn't win on all counts,

43:13

to Rosa, this was still a victory. It

43:16

was like not a blip on the radar.

43:18

And I was going around like, yo, she

43:20

won to that day the biggest

43:23

amount of damages ever

43:25

for a woman suing

43:28

her former bosses. This shit

43:30

needs to be the front cover of the New York Times.

43:34

Kim was awarded close to $8 million in damages.

43:38

A huge verdict for a wrongful termination case

43:40

at the time. One of the biggest in

43:42

the history of the state of New York.

43:45

Rosa's interview with Kim ran in the village voice

43:48

under the headline, All Eyes on

43:50

Her. In the piece, Kim

43:52

told Rosa, quote, this

43:54

trial for me on a personal level is

43:57

a vindication of me, my work, my

43:59

character. In addition, I feel

44:02

empowered. I did not allow them

44:04

to intimidate me, scare me, have

44:06

any more control over me.

44:09

What do you feel like changed in hip-hop with

44:11

this case and what did not change once

44:14

this ruling came back?

44:17

I don't think that much changed. I

44:20

don't think that anything changed. I don't

44:22

think a single woman could

44:24

tell you that all the

44:26

things that happened to her in that suit, and

44:29

all those things happened the next day. And

44:31

the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that.

44:34

Maybe now it's a little bit better, but

44:37

that suit,

44:38

I don't think that it, mm-mm,

44:42

I think it put people on notice, but

44:45

I don't know if it changed behavior,

44:47

if that's what you mean. Alia's

44:49

right. Kim's case

44:52

didn't dramatically reshape hip-hop

44:54

or changed anyone's behavior.

44:58

And because the jury didn't decide in Kim's favor

45:00

on the harassment and gender discrimination claims,

45:03

this was a missed opportunity, where

45:06

hip-hop could have been ahead of the curve on

45:08

a major reckoning. But

45:10

you know what? It was proof that you

45:12

could push back. You could

45:14

break the rule.

45:16

And Kim wasn't the only one fighting.

45:18

Sexual violence has been weaponized

45:21

against black men in this country for

45:23

so long that

45:26

black women are fearful and

45:30

protective of our men,

45:33

because we don't wanna be seen in that

45:35

same tradition, right, of weaponizing

45:38

sexual violence, even when it actually happened

45:40

to us. That's Serana Burke again.

45:43

And she was trying to break rules too.

45:46

So you have black women questioning themselves

45:49

and sacrificing themselves even. You

45:51

have older generations of black women in

45:53

hotel, younger generations, to

45:55

essentially suck it up. Right,

45:57

you lived, you're fine.

46:00

So we passed down the culture of silence from

46:02

one generation to the other. In 2006,

46:06

at the same time as she was watching Kim's case go down,

46:09

Tarana was trying to find language

46:11

to help black girls talk about sexual assault

46:13

and harassment. Sometimes they would

46:15

be like, oh, Miss Tarana, can I talk to you in private?

46:18

But they were not, like, nine

46:20

times out of ten it wasn't like, oh, I have a confession,

46:23

I want to tell you something to happen. It was just, they'll

46:26

tell us a story and me and my girl will look at each other

46:28

and be like, oh my God.

46:31

Tarana was running an after-school program, and

46:34

when girls would talk about their relationships, she

46:36

recognized signs of sexual violence, even

46:39

when the girls didn't themselves, and

46:41

choose specific pop culture references

46:44

to help her students see. What they

46:46

were dealing with was not okay. We would use

46:49

celebrities and

46:52

people who I knew, black women, who I knew

46:55

had stories. So like Mary

46:58

J. Blige, Queen Latifah,

47:00

Missy Elliott, Fantasia

47:03

at the time, had her movie

47:05

out. I think Eve, Lil Kim.

47:08

If I heard even an inkling of a story that

47:10

sounded like there was some sexual violence, I would use

47:12

their stories to talk to the girls.

47:14

The stories of those artists also

47:16

showed the girls. They weren't alone. This

47:19

led Tarana to come up with a phrase

47:21

they could use. At the end of

47:23

our sessions, we would give out sticky notes

47:26

to everybody, so that nobody felt singled

47:29

out and would say, like, write me too

47:32

if you want help or if you wanted to let

47:34

us know. I'll never forget when we did this

47:36

one, it was the end of the workshop, and we were

47:38

like, tell us three things you learned, or

47:42

write me too. And we

47:44

just took them and put them in a manila envelope, and

47:46

then we got back to the room, dumped

47:49

them all out on the bed, and we started

47:51

going through them, and I'm telling you, it was like, me

47:53

too,

47:53

me too, me too, one after another. Tarana

47:56

expanded this program, and she

47:58

took it across the country. Then,

48:00

in 2017, a

48:02

white actress tweeted the phrase Me Too, and

48:05

it went viral. It snowballed,

48:08

and it became a movement. But

48:10

as the term spread, it got

48:12

disconnected from the people it was originally

48:14

created to help. The voices

48:16

of those girls who saw themselves in hip-hop

48:19

were missing in the conversation. Do

48:22

you believe that hip-hop was part of the Me

48:24

Too movement or the Reckoning in 2017 or

48:26

not? No,

48:29

I don't.

48:30

I've heard stories for years. I

48:33

have friends who dated rappers or

48:35

people in the industry, and were

48:38

horribly mistreated. None of that

48:41

came for it. And I think it's because

48:43

they didn't see space

48:46

for them, which I completely

48:48

understand. They did not see

48:51

space for Black women. They didn't see

48:53

space for women of color. They didn't see an

48:56

opening in

48:57

our community, quite frankly.

49:01

The white women who came forward, I

49:03

don't begrudge them, right?

49:05

Because they were survivors, too. They went through something, too.

49:08

And they honestly didn't know whether or not

49:10

they were going to have careers or that kind of

49:13

thing. But we are socialized to respond

49:16

to the vulnerability of white women.

49:17

So there's inherently a safety net in that,

49:20

right? Somebody's going to say, we got to do something

49:22

to help them. But

49:25

you have these Black and Latino women

49:27

and women of color coming forward.

49:30

It's not the same safety net. There's

49:32

no guarantees in that.

49:34

The inequality of that safety net

49:36

is built right into the law.

49:39

Black women, women of color

49:41

in general,

49:42

are asked to choose which type of harassment is

49:45

more important for them to fight,

49:46

race or gender-based harassment.

49:49

Or they're forced to prove both.

49:53

Because of this, according to the National

49:55

Women's Law Center,

49:56

even though Black women are more likely to file harassment

49:59

claims in the U.S.,

49:59

they're

50:00

less likely to win their cases. Those

50:03

aren't the only legal barriers either.

50:06

I talked to multiple women who've

50:08

worked at places like Complex,

50:10

The Fader, and OK Africa

50:13

about the current state of harassment in music

50:15

media today.

50:16

But ultimately, none

50:18

of them would go on the record

50:20

because of ongoing settlement negotiations,

50:22

and in some cases, restrictive

50:25

NDAs. And the law,

50:27

it doesn't even account for where the culture's

50:30

at. Huge music moguls

50:32

like Russell Simmons and L.A. Reed were

50:34

called out in the 2020 documentary

50:37

On the Record,

50:38

but still,

50:39

people have continued to support them.

50:41

As a person who is a survivor, you're watching

50:43

that, and you're like, I'm not throwing my hat in that

50:46

ring, I'm not jumping in that fray. For

50:48

what? To be torn apart? To be called

50:50

a liar? I'm going to reveal

50:53

my innermost hurt, the thing

50:55

that almost killed me. I'm

50:57

going to bring that out and put that in the world

50:59

for y'all to tear me apart and call me a liar

51:02

and a whore and a gold digger and a bitch

51:05

and a diss. Oh, I'm gonna do that? For

51:07

what?

51:08

No. It's really difficult.

51:11

Our community has to have a hard conversation.

51:14

With Massage Ennoir always there to

51:16

shut down the conversation, the

51:18

fact that Kim even said anything at all was

51:21

a risk. I think people

51:23

don't understand that's what survivorship is. It's ongoing,

51:25

right? It's not just filing

51:28

the case. People will forever attach

51:30

you to that thing, to that decision

51:32

that you made. So you have to continue to

51:34

live through that. So,

51:37

you know, I applaud her for, and

51:39

hip hop on top of everything

51:42

to do that. It's an incredible feat.

51:46

What's incredible is that talking about

51:49

this case years later is

51:51

still dangerous. Kim

51:53

had moved on, rebuilt and

51:55

created a lucrative career for herself in the TV

51:57

space. Last year, reached

52:00

out to her for this story,

52:02

it was because we wanted to highlight what

52:04

this trial could have been, what it could

52:06

have meant for hip-hop.

52:07

And originally Kim was down for that too.

52:10

Then, Dave's lawyer came calling.

52:14

His lawyer made sure to emphasize to us that

52:17

Kim was unsuccessful on the claims of sexual

52:19

harassment and gender discrimination, and that

52:21

she shouldn't be declaring she won on them. Which

52:24

to us, she never did.

52:27

In fact,

52:28

her being unsuccessful on those claims is

52:31

the entire point of the story.

52:38

Hello. Hello. Hi. Hi,

52:40

Tarana. This is Sydney from

52:42

Louder Than a Riot. How are you? I'm

52:44

good. How are you?

52:46

I'm good. Do you remember us? The

52:48

last time we talked to Tarana was before

52:50

this episode evolved. Before

52:52

we got that email from Dave's lawyer.

52:55

So you know we had to get her back on the line.

52:57

My first question is what

52:59

is your first reaction hearing

53:02

that update? That's some bullshit.

53:04

First reaction is just some bullshit.

53:07

And this is her life. Right?

53:09

This is her talking about her own

53:11

life and you throwing legal action.

53:14

Now one of the things Dave's lawyers stressed

53:16

most in that email was that Kim

53:18

should not be positioning herself as quote, a

53:20

pioneer of the Me Too movement

53:23

because she didn't win on the sexual harassment

53:25

claim in court.

53:26

I think people need to recognize that

53:30

winning the court case is not the thing.

53:33

So they're actually

53:33

wrong. Completely

53:36

wrong. You had this sister who was steeped

53:39

in the most deeply

53:42

masculine, sexist,

53:45

macho, male driven statement

53:47

there is in entertainment and culture.

53:50

Had the wherewithal to step forward and

53:52

say, nah, I'm not standing for this.

53:55

He is a predecessor to an ecologist

53:57

for the cultural moment that

53:59

we saw. could happen in 2017

54:02

to stand up in the face

54:04

of misogyny and sexism and patriarchy

54:07

and say, this is not right and I

54:10

won't stand for it. And regardless

54:12

if I have to stand alone, I'm going to stand.

54:15

And that's what Kim did. And that's

54:17

why it's

54:18

so significant. So

54:20

winning or losing is really not

54:23

the measure of success in this instance.

54:25

What would you say to Dave right now?

54:28

This is a moment where you could have shown leadership.

54:30

You did a remarkable thing

54:33

happened many years ago. The source was founded.

54:36

You gave something to the culture

54:38

and Kim elevated that thing.

54:41

And when you fuck up, you

54:43

gotta say, I fucked up.

54:46

That's just that's just how you get better.

54:48

And when you're not good for the thing, you gotta

54:51

step away from the thing. So

54:53

you fighting and

54:54

clawing to hold on to something to hold

54:56

on to your reputation, to hold on to the reputation

54:58

of the source, whatever it is you're doing, we see

55:01

you. We see you

55:03

for what you are. I don't know what it is

55:05

you think you're doing now, but we see you for what you

55:07

are. This is how Dave

55:09

made you actually tarnish your reputation.

55:14

What would you say to Kim right now? I respect

55:17

the fact that she did

55:19

what she had to do to give herself peace.

55:23

The work that she did years

55:25

ago when she filed the law

55:27

suit and did the fight, she did the work already.

55:30

So pulling out right now, rather

55:32

than do that fight all over again, I 100% respect

55:34

that. She doesn't owe us anything

55:37

else. That moment was

55:40

great and it was a beautiful contribution,

55:42

but she has so much more to contribute to the culture

55:44

and it doesn't solely define

55:46

her. So that's all I would just say,

55:49

I'm grateful for you, sis, and I

55:51

can't wait to see what else you give us.

55:53

While

55:55

working on this episode, I asked

55:57

a lot of people what it's going to take to really

55:59

changed this culture. And

56:02

after all the reporting and all

56:04

the ways this story changed, of

56:06

course it was Dorana

56:07

who spoke most clearly about the

56:10

point hip-hop keeps missing. Women

56:13

are pioneers in hip-hop in every

56:15

single facet. Every

56:18

single piece of hip-hop

56:19

has women at the forefront

56:21

of it. And no matter what

56:24

we do, you have

56:27

some way in which men

56:29

will silence, will not

56:32

recognize. We have these

56:34

moments where we get diminished. And

56:37

you're going to have people who will excrete

56:40

me. They'll be like, you just

56:42

want to take down our men. You just want to, but

56:44

we will not have enough self-respect,

56:47

self-reflection, self-love

56:49

to say we

56:52

can love hip-hop. And

56:54

if we love hip-hop, like accountability

56:56

is a part of love.

57:00

If we really love hip-hop, then

57:02

we would hold ourselves accountable. We would

57:04

hold it accountable. Those two

57:06

things can happen at the same time.

57:08

We don't have to tear

57:11

hip-hop down to hold it accountable, right?

57:13

That's how you absolutely build it out.

57:20

All right,

57:30

y'all. We're halfway through the season

57:32

of examining massage and war in the culture.

57:35

And so far, we've centered women's stories.

57:38

But whether it's body policing or being

57:40

bullied by the boys club is not

57:42

just women being singled out or told to

57:44

change.

57:44

Was hip-hop obsessed with whether

57:47

or not you were gay from the start? I think so. But

57:50

hip-hop's been obsessed with that. Who's

57:52

man enough to be in the boys club?

57:55

I love Macon and takes us through rule

57:58

number six. That's next time.

58:00

on Louder Than the Riot. Louder

58:04

Than the Riot is hosted by me, Sydney Madden,

58:07

and Rodney Carmichael. This

58:09

episode was written by myself, Sam

58:11

Jay Leeds, and Saraya Shockley. And

58:14

it was produced by Sam Jay Leeds.

58:16

Our senior producer is Gabby Bobarelli,

58:20

and our producers are Sam Jay Leeds

58:22

and Mano Sundarasin. Our

58:24

editor is Saraya Shockley with additional

58:27

editing by Raina Cohen.

58:28

And our engineer is Gilly Moon. Our

58:31

senior supervising producer is Cher Vincent.

58:34

Our interns are Jose Sandoval, Teresa

58:36

Shia, and Pilar Galvan, with

58:38

help from Jerusalem Truth.

58:40

And the NPR execs are

58:42

Keith Jenkins, Yolanda Sanguini,

58:45

and Anya Grumman. Original theme by

58:47

Casa Overall. Remixed by

58:49

Susie Analogue. And the scoring

58:51

for this episode was provided by Susie Analogue

58:54

and Casa Overall.

58:54

Our digital editor is

58:57

Jacob Gans. Our fact checkers are

58:59

Julia Woe, Greta Pittenger, and

59:01

Candice Bo-Corke.

59:03

And big shout out to our lawyers,

59:06

Ashley Messinger and Rachel Suller. If

59:09

you want to learn more about Kim's story, you

59:11

can read her book, Straight from the Source,

59:14

an expose from the former editor-in-chief

59:16

of the Hip Hop Bible. If you

59:18

liked this episode and you want to talk back, hit

59:21

us up on Twitter. We're at Louder

59:23

Than the Riot. And if you want to email

59:25

us, it's louder at NPR.org.

59:28

From NPR Music, I'm

59:31

Rodney Carmichael. And I'm Sydney Madden.

59:34

And this is Louder Than the Riot.