0:00

When the world has

0:00

gotcha down, and Alzheimer's

0:04

sucks. It's an equal opportunity

0:04

disease that chips away at

0:08

everything we hold dear. And to

0:08

date, there's no cure. So until

0:12

there is we continue to fight

0:12

with the most powerful tool in

0:15

our arsenal. Love. This is Love

0:15

Conquers Alz, a real and really

0:22

positive podcast that takes a

0:22

deep dive into everything.

0:25

Alzheimer's, The Good, the Bad,

0:25

and everything in between. And

0:30

now, here are your hosts Susie

0:30

singer, Carter, and me, Don

0:35

Priess.

0:40

Good afternoon. I'm

0:40

Susie Singer Carter.

0:43

And I'm Don Priess.

0:43

And this is love conquers all

0:46

calls. Hello, Susan.

0:48

Donald, how you doing?

0:50

I'm swell. What is

0:50

the word? What do you don't?

0:53

Well, you know, I mean, that's a

0:53

matter of opinion. But I think

0:56

I'm swell. So

1:00

I am. I am swell

1:00

ish. Yeah, yes. I'm swell ish.

1:05

Yes. Yeah. Well, it's been a

1:05

nonstop and busy and busy doing

1:11

things and like, we're we are

1:11

both busy. But let's see what we

1:16

had. We had my two Rugrats for

1:16

the weekend. I had. I was, I had

1:22

a three year old, four year old

1:22

and my 16 month old

1:28

granddaughters for the weekend,

1:28

and I am exhausted and and like

1:33

the house was like a, like a

1:33

hurricane happened. Like, I

1:37

don't know what happened, I

1:37

think is it possible to have too

1:40

many toys? Apparently,

1:43

it's not. The

1:43

amazing thing is it's literally

1:46

a disaster area within the first

1:46

11 seconds that distribute the

1:53

toys at a rate that is actually

1:53

humanly impossible.

1:57

And yet, and yet

1:57

it's done before our very eyes

2:01

before our very eyes. But um,

2:01

yeah, it's pretty extraordinary

2:04

and skillful. I might add. Yeah,

2:04

so but but loads of fun. We had

2:09

a slumber party. We had, you

2:09

know, so all those fun things,

2:14

girly girl stuff, and, you know,

2:14

all that things. So I enjoyed

2:18

that. And on the on the business

2:18

side, where we're, we're at the

2:25

finish line of our documentary,

2:25

No Country for Old people. And

2:30

we're at that point where we're,

2:30

you know, bravely taking notes

2:34

from strangers and others. And

2:34

so difficult, so difficult to

2:41

hear other people's, you know,

2:41

it's like writing a book or like

2:44

our our guests. That's going to

2:44

be on in a couple of minutes.

2:48

I'm sure he's had the same

2:48

feeling when people come in and

2:51

start chopping your your baby

2:51

up. And you're like,

2:57

wow, stop. And

2:57

that's your opinion.

3:00

Yeah, thank you.

3:00

Yeah, yeah. But, but that's

3:04

where we're at. And we're being

3:04

brave. We're being brave big

3:06

girls and big boys and listening

3:06

with open ears, and open minds

3:12

ish. And that's what we're

3:12

doing. Absolutely. What I will

3:16

remind you that we're still

3:16

raising money for the finishing

3:20

funds, and it's all tax

3:20

deductible. If I'm sure you're,

3:23

you know, if you listen to us,

3:23

you probably know this already.

3:27

But, you know, we would, we're

3:27

taking donations still through

3:31

the national consumer voice for

3:31

long term care. And they are

3:36

incredible. And they are our

3:36

partners, and it's 100% tax

3:40

deductible. And, but we're very

3:40

close to getting this out there

3:45

for everybody. We hope that it

3:45

makes a big huge change. And

3:50

we're proud of our work. So

3:51

absolutely. Because we're not doing this for ourselves. We're doing this for

3:53

you know, the we're trying to

3:56

everybody, save the save

3:56

everyone from going through what

4:00

Susie went through and what what

4:00

countless people are going

4:04

through right now, every minute

4:04

so as

4:07

as we speak, we

4:07

need to change our long term

4:09

care system. Now, so stat,

4:09

right, but that's what we do.

4:16

It's like what when something

4:16

when you go through a crisis of

4:20

any kind or a challenge, and

4:20

then you know, you learn then

4:25

you I think that that is

4:25

important to pay it forward.

4:28

Right? And so that other people

4:28

can benefit from your

4:33

experience, like, guard next

4:33

guest right,

4:37

indeed. So

4:38

Don, why don't you?

4:38

I know, why don't you do a

4:41

lovely introduction, and then

4:41

we'll get into it.

4:45

I will do that.

4:45

Right now. I'm a lawyer by trade

4:50

politician by practice and an

4:50

academic by accident. These are

4:54

the musings of the remarkable

4:54

Max Sherman, a former Texas

4:58

State Senator president of West

4:58

Texas State University and Dean

5:02

of the LBJ School of Public

5:02

Affairs. His leadership roles

5:05

also include President of the

5:05

National Association of Schools

5:08

of Public Affairs and vice

5:08

president of the Harry S. Truman

5:12

Scholarship Foundation. And

5:12

recently, he was honored as an

5:15

80 over 80 recipient. Now a

5:15

young and energetic 89 years old

5:21

Max Sherman's life has been

5:21

significantly influenced by

5:24

women, but one in particular has

5:24

shaped who he is today. In 1953,

5:29

Max was among four high school

5:29

boys conducting a church service

5:32

at a local jail when he first

5:32

laid eyes on Jean Alice, who was

5:37

there with her fold up field

5:37

Oregon, and their love affair

5:40

still thrives to this day. But

5:40

in 2002, Gene Atlas started

5:44

noticing that something was

5:44

different and soon after, was

5:46

diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

5:46

Through the inevitable

5:50

progression of the disease Max

5:50

and Gene Alice's journey

5:53

together is now chronicled in

5:53

the beautiful and poignant

5:56

memoir, releasing the butterfly,

5:56

a love affair in four acts. And

6:00

honest, heart wrenching and

6:00

insightful look at not only the

6:03

disease, but a bond that could

6:03

not be broken. And we are so

6:07

excited to have the author of

6:07

this ode to a 70 year love

6:10

affair with us today. So let's

6:10

say hello to Max Sherman. Hello,

6:14

Max. Hello, Max.

6:17

Hi, Don says we I'm

6:17

delighted to be with you.

6:21

Thank you, we're delighted to be

6:21

with you. Everything about who

6:25

you are, and your your love your

6:25

incredible love. lifelong love

6:33

resonates so deeply with with

6:33

us. And in your compassionate

6:40

caregiving is just so beautiful

6:40

to to read about and to learn

6:45

about and, and just just really

6:45

goes with our, our show love

6:51

conquers all, because that's

6:51

really what you did, you use the

6:54

love, and you're still using the

6:54

love, right?

6:57

When we were together

6:57

just a short time before, we're

7:00

talking here. And we were

7:00

sitting there and she has her

7:05

head there and, and so I've

7:05

learned if in my raspy voice, I

7:09

would sing to her. So I was

7:09

singing old song that everybody

7:14

knows, and I'm not very good at

7:14

it. But I said morning as

7:18

Robocon in the first morning,

7:18

she likes or even raises it up

7:25

and opens those hazel eyes, and

7:25

I just melt. And then we've

7:30

learned in Alzheimer's, you have

7:30

to read different signals. And

7:34

one of the signals that we've

7:34

learned is that the way that we

7:38

kiss now is a little different

7:38

than when we used to kiss on the

7:42

lips. And really, anybody

7:42

talking to it, she will. That's

7:49

three big kisses. I got five of

7:49

those big kisses this morning

7:53

after singing that song. Live

7:53

still goes on. And it's great.

7:58

We've learned to make love in a

7:58

different way. And absolutely

8:03

every moment is just as precious

8:03

as it was when we first started.

8:08

And I had that first little peck

8:08

on the lips that she gave me

8:11

when we were just a bunch of

8:11

kids

8:15

definition of a silver lining,

8:18

ya know, it's, it's

8:18

so beautiful. And it's such a

8:21

great, it's a it is the, the its

8:21

opponent your poster child for

8:27

for the best kind of approach to

8:27

this kind of journey. You know,

8:33

and it took and I know from

8:33

reading your book and also

8:37

listening to you talk on other

8:37

interviews, you know that it is

8:41

a learning curve, right? And

8:41

that, you know, we and it takes

8:44

it takes that, you know, the

8:44

tripping over ourselves and

8:48

realizing that okay, this isn't

8:48

working. Because, you know, I

8:51

always say that when my mom was

8:51

diagnosed, I was I was certain

8:56

that I was going to be the one

8:56

that cures this for you other

8:59

people can't but I will write

8:59

until you realize that that

9:03

monster is way stronger than all

9:03

of us. And now I'm you know

9:07

going to have and then I figured

9:07

out how to lean into my mom into

9:10

every stage and learn how to re

9:10

communicate with her like you're

9:13

doing with with Jean Alice,

9:13

which is like it is so rewarding

9:18

and so beautiful. And yeah, I

9:18

just really, really compliment

9:25

you on on going going the

9:25

distance the way you are.

9:30

She could I maybe just

9:30

pick up on that because is I've

9:34

been asked to talk about the

9:34

book with different groups

9:37

senior citizens and and we live

9:37

in a senior retirement

9:42

community. It's a wonderful

9:42

place. But most people probably

9:46

here because somewhere in their

9:46

lives, either a parent or

9:49

grandparent or someone close has

9:49

been touched by Alzheimer's and

9:54

everyone's afraid Well, it might

9:54

happen to me or it might happen

9:57

close to me. And so I I don't

9:57

think we're ever prepared for

10:01

it. And in is I met with these

10:01

groups. That chapter I think is

10:06

chapter 46. And it's one page in

10:06

the regular page books. And it's

10:12

an another in the large printed

10:12

book. But it's only about three

10:17

pages. It's very short. But it's

10:17

makes the point that you were

10:20

just talking about, because I

10:20

was making all the decisions. I

10:24

picked out the clothes she wore,

10:24

I pick the food that we ate, I

10:28

took us wherever we needed to

10:28

go. I chose what we watched on

10:32

television, I was really trying

10:32

to be the fixer. And I can fix

10:38

this Well, I'm not going to fix

10:38

it, I finally realized. And I

10:42

said that what was happening is

10:42

that I was stealing my love from

10:47

her nibble by nibble little by

10:47

little by doing that every time.

10:52

And I had to learn that I was

10:52

not the drill sergeants. I was

10:56

not the one who said Get In Line

10:56

step up, you're going too slow,

10:59

you're going too fast. And all

10:59

of a sudden, it just shocked me

11:03

that all I needed to do was just

11:03

shift gears. Nothing big. It's

11:08

like making love and then the

11:08

world of Alzheimer's is shifting

11:11

yours. And mine was Jeannie,

11:11

would you like chocolate or

11:16

vanilla ice cream? Would you

11:16

like to watch the news? Or would

11:21

you like to watch a musical

11:21

tonight? Would you like to wear

11:26

this blouse or this blouse? It

11:26

almost always she would say, Oh,

11:30

you decide. It wasn't up. But

11:30

the most important thing, the

11:35

most important thing, the

11:35

headline of that chapter is she

11:39

wanted to be asked, because she

11:39

was cine she was teen Alice. She

11:44

was not a child. She was not a

11:44

person in the army 100, the

11:49

drill sergeant, she hit her

11:49

unique personality. And that to

11:53

me is the chapter in the book

11:53

that was my wake up call that I

11:58

had to do it differently. And

11:58

all it was is shifting gears in

12:03

love making is shifting yours.

12:03

And the little is a kiss just as

12:09

much as a big smack around the

12:09

lips. It's a beautiful kiss. I

12:13

love every one of them. I would

12:13

not ever take one of them back.

12:19

And it's different than it was

12:19

but you put your finger on it.

12:23

I love that. Yeah,

12:23

wow. Yeah, I think I think

12:26

there's a lot of consistency in

12:26

that journey with people that

12:31

have, you know, decided to step

12:31

back. And really take a look at

12:35

at how we're interacting with

12:35

our person with the person that

12:40

we love. And looking to find

12:40

them at the stage that they're

12:44

at, like I could find my mom, I

12:44

could still, you know, we shared

12:47

music too. My mom was a singer.

12:47

And so music became really

12:51

important like you did with you.

12:51

And Jean. So I think that, you

12:55

know, I related to that as well.

12:55

And that it is like you said

12:59

it's magic. And you know it is

12:59

it lasts till the very bitter

13:04

end. And and it made my mom so

13:04

happy. And it really was our our

13:11

love talk, you know, and then we

13:11

also shared a sense of humor.

13:14

And so we, I would always come

13:14

in with something, you know, to

13:18

catch her off. And she'd give me

13:18

that big old smile, like, you

13:22

know, even when she lost her

13:22

ability to just to articulate

13:25

words. But she was talking to

13:25

me, I saw it. I knew it. I just

13:31

I would I became I became the

13:31

words for her. Right? Yeah. And

13:38

that's and that is it. There's

13:38

nothing more beautiful than

13:40

that. Because, you know, when we

13:40

accept as we accept the person,

13:45

and also what you said, like

13:45

acknowledging that they are

13:48

still who they are, is their

13:48

soul as who they are inside. And

13:54

so we need to we can respect it.

13:54

We don't need to, but we can,

13:58

and it's better.

14:00

When you know you,

14:00

again, you've probably had this

14:03

experience with your mother. But

14:03

one of the things even again

14:07

this morning, when we have these

14:07

moments where we're really

14:10

connecting in that way, and it's

14:10

all of a sudden, she doesn't

14:15

talk now. But all of a sudden

14:15

she's really talking, making

14:19

attempts to talk getting

14:19

something out there. Because you

14:22

can tell that you've resonated

14:22

you touch something. And the

14:27

same is true. And the reason

14:27

that I started this morning by

14:30

saying to her is that she's a

14:30

pianist. She's an organist.

14:34

She's a beautiful musician, and

14:34

music actually reaches in and

14:39

when those things happen, she

14:39

responds. In our senior living

14:44

facility last night a woman did

14:44

a series of things, composers

14:49

and played the beautiful piano

14:49

and finished up with a Scott

14:52

Joplin number 10 He used to play

14:52

Scott Joplin all the time. And I

14:57

would always ask her what play

14:57

the entertainer in Boy, she

15:00

would pound that piano and play

15:00

the entertainer. And probably

15:04

one of the, if we play the

15:04

entertainer, she perks up and

15:07

gets up and looks in the mirror

15:07

looks at me, and she's right

15:11

there with you. And I think that

15:11

I think we don't always grasp

15:16

the potential of music is

15:16

reaching into mind that we don't

15:20

understand. As I understand it,

15:20

we don't now know how it all

15:25

works. We have some ideas and

15:25

sciences worked on it. But we're

15:29

still trying to figure it out.

15:29

But you do know, there are

15:32

certain things that connect, and

15:32

those are there be treasured.

15:37

I agree. You know,

15:37

I loved what you in your book,

15:40

when you talk about, you know,

15:40

there's parts that you spoke

15:44

about your wife on in the

15:44

beginning stages, and her

15:50

experience of the those

15:50

beginning stages and how she

15:53

described them. And I always

15:53

find it fascinating because I

15:57

used to say, my mom and I were

15:57

so close. And I would I wanted,

16:00

I missed I kind of missed my

16:00

moment, because I was such an

16:04

throes of it have to really sit

16:04

down and say, What are you

16:07

feeling? Like? What is this?

16:07

Like? You know, and you talked

16:10

about the fog and that

16:10

connection? You know? Can you

16:17

tell our audience like that part

16:17

of it? What, what's your wife in

16:21

the beginning stages she

16:21

starred, she really articulated

16:24

a lot of what it felt like when

16:24

she would get lost, or right.

16:28

And that I found that I think

16:28

that's so important for us who

16:31

don't have to really understand

16:31

that the fluidity of it because

16:36

it comes and goes in the

16:36

beginning, correct? Well,

16:40

I think so I think, you

16:40

know, she really was the one who

16:43

put her finger on it about 12 to

16:43

14 years before it hit like a

16:48

tsunami. And just overpowered as

16:48

she said, you know, we we built

16:55

a new home when we both came to

16:55

Austin, Texas. I was needed the

17:00

LBJ School and she was head of

17:00

the Conference Center. And we

17:03

had very active lives. So we in

17:03

December usually had about five

17:08

different events in our home

17:08

where we had different groups in

17:11

from academia from, from

17:11

business from law, because I was

17:15

a lawyer in the early days, on

17:15

and on. So we had these

17:19

different groups in large

17:19

numbers, and the house was built

17:23

to entertain. And after we sat

17:23

down to have a glass of wine,

17:28

about New Year's Eve of 2002.

17:28

She said, You know, it's the

17:32

first time that I've had time

17:32

trouble remembering all the

17:36

names, and she could remember

17:36

hundreds of names and new people

17:39

come in, she would greet them by

17:39

their names have their first

17:42

name. And she said all of a

17:42

sudden is the first time. And

17:46

it's the first time I've felt

17:46

the pressure of getting prepared

17:50

for these events. Because she

17:50

used to just love it as we had

17:54

our assignments. And she did get

17:54

put the food together. And my

17:58

job was to clean the windows and

17:58

polish the floors and do all

18:02

that. But she said it's the

18:02

first time so we were able to

18:08

get an appointment at the Brain

18:08

Health Center in Dallas, in 2003

18:12

in January. And we went up and

18:12

they did a two, two day

18:17

evaluation. And so they had all

18:17

this material. And the main

18:22

doctor, there is a very

18:22

distinguished doctor at

18:24

Southwest medical school. And

18:24

he's the one that supervise and

18:29

so out of that we started doing

18:29

regular checkups, but she would

18:33

always every year we would met

18:33

with Dr. Hart. And he'd been

18:37

asked questions and he had about

18:37

four interns with him to teach

18:40

him how to work with people who

18:40

were struggling with dementia

18:43

and Alzheimer's. And he's a

18:43

great, great, great doctor. And

18:49

so I got a chance to watch it

18:49

over the years a very thing you

18:52

asked him about. And one of the

18:52

things he said that to me is

18:56

critical is he said, you know,

18:56

she shouldn't be getting worse,

19:01

but she's not. She still has

19:01

impeccable appearance. When I

19:06

asked her a question, she looks

19:06

me right in the eye. And he said

19:10

as long as that's there, they

19:10

said we're rare, maybe issues

19:14

where she takes the

19:14

grandchildren to school and gets

19:18

lost. Or she's going to meet

19:18

some friends and takes a turn

19:21

the wrong way. So those were the

19:21

little signals and she talked

19:25

about those. But in by and

19:25

large, she felt competent. And

19:29

then she is an organist in our

19:29

church. The Oregon there is

19:33

actually named for her because

19:33

it's a big, big beautiful Oregon

19:37

and she was a great church

19:37

organist. And we dedicated it on

19:41

her birthday in 2014. And we had

19:41

the fella who does a Watermaker

19:48

orgy at Oregon and Philadelphia

19:48

it came down to play for it. And

19:51

she was in the audience of

19:51

church was full of people

19:54

friends from yours from our

19:54

church. She was in her element

19:59

and And we did two events with

19:59

friends musicians, one time

20:03

friends and x. And then one

20:03

month later, is when all hell

20:09

hit. And then suddenly, the

20:09

ticker flare up because she had

20:14

been Ojai going strong, loving

20:14

every moment of it, boom, all of

20:20

a sudden, that whatever triggers

20:20

in the mind hit and that's when

20:25

I shattered a femur and had to

20:25

go to the hospital for three or

20:29

four weeks to recover. And get

20:29

back to it, our kids had to make

20:33

the decision for her to. And I

20:33

think it's important for your

20:37

listeners, because I think I am

20:37

a person who's done things I am

20:43

a fixer. And I probably if I

20:43

hadn't shattered the femur, we

20:47

might not have made the move we

20:47

did for her to have good

20:50

professional care, I might have

20:50

tried to put it off and put it

20:53

off and put it all. But all of a

20:53

sudden, I'm not there, that our

20:57

kids had to deal with it. So I

20:57

think one of the dangers for for

21:02

all of us here are caregivers is

21:02

that we think we can fix it. And

21:07

I will have to admit, I plead

21:07

guilty. I plead guilty. I plead

21:10

guilty. I thought I could fix

21:10

it. And, and all of a sudden, I

21:16

had to realize I could not fix

21:16

it. But I had to live with it we

21:20

had to live with we had to love

21:20

with it. And you talk your

21:25

program is about love. Love is

21:25

so critical, absolutely critical

21:30

to how you deal with a person

21:30

who's struggling as you're

21:34

struggling. In many ways. We

21:34

both thought that maybe life was

21:38

over. And maybe I'm talking too

21:38

much. But the first thing I

21:43

wrote very first thing I wrote.

21:43

I'm on hospice, I'm on her

21:50

deathbed. My family's all around

21:50

me, because I thought our lives

21:54

were over. And and they asked me

21:54

some question. And I'm not

21:59

really sure what I'm saying. And

21:59

this is all fictional. It's just

22:02

in my mind. And all of a sudden

22:02

I see a stage floating overhead.

22:07

And I say, Well, maybe that's

22:07

it. And all of a sudden, I

22:12

decided I can write about it in

22:12

fiction is not in reality. So I

22:17

took the stage and I took

22:17

Thornton Wilder's play our town,

22:22

and I created myself as George.

22:22

And I created Jean, Alice's

22:26

Emily. So almost everything that

22:26

was written originally was

22:30

written for fictional

22:30

characters. And the psychiatrist

22:34

or the therapist was really the

22:34

stage manager out of our town,

22:39

never dreamed it, never thought

22:39

I would do that. And all of a

22:42

sudden, it becomes the vehicle.

22:42

And you have to find a vehicle,

22:47

that how you live with it, and

22:47

how you make it work. And it

22:52

evolved. And maybe a little

22:52

later, as we talk, I'll tell a

22:56

story because one of the things

22:56

that scares the hell out of me

23:00

Excuse my language, is that the

23:00

stigma that no one wants to talk

23:04

about it. No one wants to talk

23:04

about it. So we say oh, she's

23:08

just forgetting, oh, she didn't

23:08

remember. And we kind of put it

23:12

off and we put it off. And then

23:12

all of a sudden, you realize

23:17

it's more than that. I can't fix

23:17

it. And I'll come back to the

23:21

stigma question in a moment. But

23:21

I'm gonna rattled on for a

23:25

while, but I just think those

23:25

are critical, critical issues.

23:30

Right? No, and

23:30

that's exactly why I made my mom

23:33

in the girl because I was there

23:33

was. I mean, and I think also

23:38

there's the stigma comes from

23:38

misunderstanding and a lack of

23:42

education, and a lot and that

23:42

lack of education comes from

23:47

ageism, and because people don't

23:47

want to look at it, and it

23:50

frightens them. And so it's

23:50

easier to just to

23:52

compartmentalize it and say,

23:52

well, they don't remember. So

23:56

that's it, you know, I mean, I

23:56

talked about my brother when

24:00

Mama was first diagnosed, and

24:00

you know, he would say, I'd say,

24:03

why don't you come and see her

24:03

more often what she doesn't

24:05

remember, you know? Well, I'm

24:05

sure you understand how silly

24:11

that is, you know, it's like,

24:11

yeah, and it's, they they do

24:15

remember, they remember here,

24:15

and so, it's very important for

24:21

them to have that support. But

24:21

but it's also so misunderstood.

24:26

You know, it's just looked at in

24:26

such a surface way. And so that

24:32

it's easy to dismiss and it's

24:32

also I you know, and I

24:34

understand that it is difficult

24:34

for people to face it. Some

24:38

people aren't strong enough, I

24:38

guess right. Now give

24:42

you an example if I

24:42

may, because it's a different

24:48

area they were talking about,

24:48

but it was my wake. It was what

24:51

helped me to work through it. I

24:51

was asked to moderate a panel

24:56

between Bill and Judith more

24:56

years in there. nerves are set

25:00

and cope. And it was at the LBJ

25:00

Library here in Austin, at the

25:05

LBJ School in LBJ Library. And

25:05

we had 1000 people in the

25:10

audience. And they were in there

25:10

that evening, the issue was to

25:13

talk about addiction. And how

25:13

people become addicted because

25:18

Coke, Moyers and becoming

25:18

addicted, almost died in Harlem

25:23

in a crack house. And he's

25:23

written books about it. It was

25:26

all their own the point of

25:26

stigma. Judith Moyers told a

25:31

story that night, that was a

25:31

wake up call for me. When she

25:35

talked about breast cancer. She

25:35

said for many, many years, no

25:40

one would talk about breast

25:40

cancer. And all of a sudden,

25:44

people did. Eddie Ford, Gerald

25:44

Ford's wife talked about having

25:48

breast cancer. Judith Moyers

25:48

talked about having breast

25:52

cancer. So what happens today,

25:52

we have six granddaughters, no

25:57

grandsons, all granddaughters.

25:57

We have one more in the hopper

26:00

right now, a great grand coming.

26:00

Another girl have all these

26:04

girls. What did those young

26:04

girls do to whoever may have

26:07

just finished college last year,

26:07

they come out and put

26:10

fundraisers on, they put on

26:10

their pink sweaters, they pink

26:14

shirts, and they have a month,

26:14

and they dedicated to raising

26:18

money for breast cancer. And

26:18

there was not there was a time

26:22

when no one would talk about it.

26:22

If you can get if you can get it

26:25

out of the closet and get it out

26:25

there, then I believe it's going

26:29

to be up here. I think I commend

26:29

what you guys are doing and been

26:33

doing it for 25 years, get it

26:33

out of the closet, talk about

26:37

it. And you're gonna help find

26:37

ways eventually to deal with it

26:42

for the caregiver, and also for

26:42

the person needing the care.

26:46

Definitely,

26:46

definitely. Yeah, I mean,

26:49

that's, that's what we aim to

26:49

do. And I think there's a lot of

26:52

us now than there ever was

26:52

before. You know, I know, my mom

26:56

had Alzheimer's for 16 years.

26:56

And when I first you know, heard

27:00

of it, I was I had preconceived

27:00

ideas and stereotype, you know

27:06

about it. And I thought, Oh, my

27:06

God, my, my, I thought I had to

27:10

protect my mom, they people

27:10

would not be understanding. And,

27:15

you know, I, I learned, it took

27:15

me a little while but I learned

27:20

that people you know, when you

27:20

when you educate people, they're

27:23

much more they there. They are

27:23

understanding they can be

27:27

understanding and more than you

27:27

think that they are or would

27:30

ever be. And so that was very,

27:30

that was enlightening and also

27:37

reconfirming for me to find out

27:37

how many people were actually

27:41

much more empathetic and

27:41

compassionate than I thought

27:44

that they would be. And I think,

27:44

you know, so it really showed me

27:46

that if you educate people give

27:46

them opportunity to to step up,

27:52

they will.

27:54

I think it may be in in

27:54

the book. But one of the another

27:59

wake up call for me is that when

27:59

Jean Alice was first down there,

28:03

I was told to follow in I'm a

28:03

lawyer, I've given a lot of

28:07

advice to people that they

28:07

didn't follow. And then they got

28:10

in trouble. And then they really

28:10

needed me and I made a lot more

28:13

money. But because they didn't

28:13

follow professional advice. So

28:18

when I was advised not to see

28:18

Jean Alice when she went down to

28:21

memory care. So for three

28:21

months, I did not see her three

28:26

months. In later when COVID

28:26

comes along, we go six months

28:30

without seeing each other six

28:30

months. It's one hell of a life

28:34

to have to live through. That on

28:34

the first go round. I called

28:38

every morning at 10am Every

28:38

evening and 6am what I was told

28:42

what happened happened, oh, Max,

28:42

Max, Max, you got to come and

28:46

get me I shouldn't be here, I

28:46

should be with you. I have to

28:49

get my clothes packed. I

28:49

couldn't be with you. And

28:52

there's a story in there by a

28:52

judge who had with his mother,

28:55

she wanted to be birth. So you

28:55

have to learn to let it happen

29:00

and let her realize that that is

29:00

her home. We still are there

29:04

every moment in love and spirit.

29:04

But you have to learn that, that

29:08

that's where she is. But when I

29:08

used to go down there were three

29:12

women who said in wheelchairs.

29:12

And they always had their heads

29:15

down. And you thought well,

29:15

they're, they're not

29:18

incompetent, or they're sleeping

29:18

or whatever. And we had a little

29:22

Shih Tzu dog. And so the church

29:22

organist in our church got her

29:27

to go down and play the piano

29:27

with him one time when she was

29:30

much earlier stages. And so

29:30

they're playing the piano to

29:35

have them sitting side by side

29:35

in the activities room. And I'm

29:39

sitting by one of those women

29:39

who never raised her head. I've

29:43

never seen an eraser head. Do

29:43

you not know when she can raise

29:46

her head? And I'm holding this

29:46

little black lemon pounds hits

29:50

the dog in my arms. And all of a

29:50

sudden, someone is petting the

29:56

dog. There's a hand petting the

29:56

dog, and I'm scared to death, no

30:03

idea what's going on. And it's

30:03

that woman who did not raise her

30:06

head, how she knew that dog was

30:06

there, I do not know. But

30:11

there's something going on in

30:11

the mind of all those people

30:14

that we do not understand. And I

30:14

think if you can allow yourself

30:19

to experience the mystery, of

30:19

not knowing, because we're

30:24

people who want to fix things,

30:24

but if you can allow yourself to

30:28

experience it, let them pet the

30:28

dog, all of a sudden, they pet

30:33

the dog, all of a sudden, the

30:33

music comes on and they pop up

30:37

in the head comes up, they heard

30:37

music, they didn't know. Or if

30:40

they like visuals, when maybe

30:40

they see a picture they didn't

30:43

know. So be open to the

30:43

possibilities, I just think it's

30:48

critical aspects that I've

30:48

learned is to be open to the

30:51

possibilities of the unknown.

30:54

Right? Right.

30:54

That's great. That's such great

30:58

advice. How did you find, you

30:58

know, how did you personally

31:03

find your strength during during

31:03

all of this, like resilience,

31:07

because, you know, it can be

31:07

really just debilitating at

31:14

times, you know, when, you know,

31:14

the disease can manifest in

31:17

different ways. And as much as

31:17

we love the person that we're

31:21

trying to understand, but you

31:21

know, there's agitation, there's

31:24

these kinds of, you know, even

31:24

just simply like not recognizing

31:29

you for a second or not, you

31:29

know, I remember my mother

31:31

saying, when, when I had her

31:31

when she was living with me, and

31:34

my daughters were there, and she

31:34

said, Oh, I'm, I'm sorry, you

31:38

have friends over, I won't

31:38

bother you. I was like, Mom,

31:41

these are your granddaughters.

31:41

You know, for that moment, she

31:45

didn't see them as

31:45

granddaughters. She saw them as

31:47

my friends. And so those are

31:47

things right, that you have to

31:51

figure out. How do we start

31:51

breaking? It is? How did? How

31:57

did you find your strength?

31:59

Well, you know, the way

31:59

that the way that releasing the

32:01

butterfly starts, is that we're

32:01

sitting there watching

32:05

television, and when we've had a

32:05

glass of wine, and we've just

32:09

had a good evening, and all of a

32:09

sudden she looks over at me and

32:13

says, What are you doing here,

32:13

you shouldn't be here, you're

32:16

not my husband. And she just

32:16

exploded and starts rushing to

32:22

the door. And, and I started to

32:22

have socks on. That's when I

32:26

shattered the femur and had to

32:26

go to the hospital. And there

32:29

were a number of we were in a

32:29

favorite place of ours in

32:32

Montana. And we rushed out to

32:32

see the birds fly. And all of a

32:39

sudden, she looks at me and

32:39

says, Who are you? What are you

32:41

doing here? So those are moments

32:41

that would crush you. Unless you

32:46

need no. And I think it's the

32:46

great thing about your program.

32:51

Love conquers. And I think if

32:51

you realize and you reach out

32:55

with love, because, you know, in

32:55

the next moment, she says, Would

33:00

you hug me? Would you give me a

33:00

kiss? And it's not? It's not the

33:06

end of the world? It's

33:08

a moment. It's a

33:08

moment that Yeah, and you just

33:11

have to know it will pass. And

33:11

there'll be more, but you can't

33:16

let it define your relationship

33:16

or who they are defined.

33:19

Or defined the

33:19

person. Right? Yeah. You know,

33:22

because I remember telling my

33:22

mom later, when she was, you

33:26

know, out of the agitation

33:26

saying, Mommy, you know, that

33:29

hurts the girl's feelings. What

33:29

did I say? I tell her Oh, I

33:34

would never say that. And she

33:34

would cry. Make it it made her

33:37

very, very upset. So number one,

33:37

note to self never tell mom

33:42

again when she did something

33:42

because that was hurtful. She

33:45

can't help it. Right. And so

33:45

yeah,

33:50

I think that's an

33:50

excellent point. Because I think

33:54

we all owe you remember, so and

33:54

so? Or, Oh, you haven't seen

33:58

this or why? You don't? You just

33:58

live in the moment. And you

34:02

realize that in my judge friend,

34:02

he wrote the deal. I learned the

34:07

value of the little white lie.

34:07

You know, when I was talking to

34:11

her on the phone, and she wants

34:11

me, you gotta come pick me up. I

34:14

said, Well, you know, I'm still

34:14

in rehab. I mean, I've got to

34:17

get my leg fixed. So I've got a

34:17

doctor's appointment. I didn't

34:21

have it was a lie. And then I

34:21

have another friend who came in

34:25

this is not didn't make it into

34:25

the book, but she always her

34:29

husband was in dimension

34:29

Alzheimer's for eight or 10

34:33

years. She would come in every

34:33

week and get his clothes and get

34:37

them cleaned and pressed and

34:37

everything. And one day she

34:42

brought them in, but I'm not

34:42

wearing those anymore. Those are

34:48

not my clothes and she was just

34:48

stunned. And all of a sudden the

34:51

light flicked in her mind. And

34:51

she says, Well, let me get some

34:55

more she walks out in the hall,

34:55

waits for about two minutes or

34:59

three brings the same clothes

34:59

in. And he hugs her and kisses.

35:03

And it's okay. So you begin to

35:03

realize that this moment may be

35:09

hell. And the next moment may be

35:09

resurrection. And so I think he

35:13

just want to keep those things

35:13

in mind as you work through it,

35:17

because and then there may be a

35:17

moment where it doesn't recover,

35:22

as he thought it would have been

35:22

recovering. As you may recall,

35:25

in the book, we have talks him

35:25

we're having a good visits, and

35:28

we have breakfast, and we have

35:28

meals, and they go on and all of

35:32

a sudden, begins to deteriorate,

35:32

it's not going to be a long

35:36

meal. And all of a sudden,

35:36

instead of a 45 minute meal, you

35:40

know, it's gonna be five

35:40

minutes, and you better call

35:43

helper to come and take her back

35:43

to memory care. And so it

35:48

evolves, both negatively and

35:48

positively. And I think on the

35:52

positive side is what we're

35:52

having right now. We meet every

35:56

morning and every afternoon,

35:56

twice a day. And some moments

36:02

aren't as good as others. You

36:02

don't want to expect today, what

36:06

you had yesterday. And I think

36:06

it takes for the caregiver, it

36:11

takes the ability to let go. And

36:11

just just to let go and expect

36:21

the impossible. And, you know,

36:21

whenever the curtain comes down,

36:26

it's down. And that's okay. And

36:26

that's where it will be. But I

36:30

think up until then you say the

36:30

curtain may come up tomorrow, it

36:36

may rain tomorrow, the butterfly

36:36

fly may fly tomorrow. And so

36:41

hold open the possibility.

36:41

Right,

36:43

right. And

36:44

that's so and that's

36:44

so healthy for not only them,

36:48

but for the caregiver, it takes

36:48

out that insanity, which you

36:53

feel like sometimes you're in it

36:53

normal, it's like it's taking

36:57

away all expectations of what

36:57

should be of what's going to

37:01

come next what makes sense,

37:01

taking all of that out of the

37:04

equation. And that takes away.

37:04

So all of that confusion that

37:08

call that the caregiver, and

37:08

frustrated frustration, and

37:13

therefore in that and that and

37:13

your attitude. Now, they can

37:16

sense that they can sense when

37:16

you're upset or agitated. And so

37:20

it's a win win for everybody.

37:20

Yeah,

37:24

I had to make a little

37:24

talk recently. And I can't do it

37:28

from memory too well, but a very

37:28

good friend of mine. He's

37:31

president of a small liberal

37:31

arts university college,

37:35

university. And his father was

37:35

was a oilfield worker, not a

37:40

writer. And he read the book.

37:40

And he determined that, that

37:45

head of that his mother had a

37:45

right for a variety of

37:49

Alzheimer's. And he had taken

37:49

care of her for years, she's now

37:52

been dead for a long time. So

37:52

here's his father, who has never

37:56

written anything. He writes two

37:56

beautiful poems that he talked

38:01

about was going to the doctor

38:01

and how it wasn't his

38:05

experience. It was hers probably

38:05

from 20 years before, when he

38:09

took her there because he was

38:09

putting it into a poem. And then

38:12

he talks about what it is to be

38:12

in that and, and so all of a

38:17

sudden, he just realized that

38:17

even even the caregiver who's

38:21

lost a spouse lives with it

38:21

after it's over, you know, so

38:27

you've got to be prepared to

38:27

allow for that possibility to

38:31

because you may not right now,

38:31

we're fortunate, we're both

38:34

alive. I'm 89 and Jenny's 86.

38:34

And we've been married almost 63

38:40

years. And we still are

38:40

together. But when we're not,

38:44

we're still together. And I

38:44

think whatever your religious

38:47

belief is, there's some way that

38:47

that that mystery takes place,

38:52

and you still have that

38:52

beautiful love that held you

38:56

together, keep you together will

38:56

hold you together. And I think

39:00

that's extremely important.

39:00

Right?

39:04

Yeah. And, to Dan's

39:04

point, it's like, it really is

39:09

the the epitome of this bit of

39:09

living Zen, because you're

39:13

living in the moment. And that,

39:13

you know, really, you know, on a

39:18

spiritual level, that's really

39:18

the highest way you can live is

39:21

to live in the moment and enjoy

39:21

each moment. And because that's

39:25

all we have is this moment, this

39:25

moment, this moment. And so, you

39:30

know, and as hard as we tried to

39:30

hold on to it, it's gone. It's

39:34

gone, right? So we can only just

39:34

keep that moment that we are in

39:38

now and treasure that and

39:38

because my mom is and you know,

39:44

I've said this before, but my

39:44

mom when I would go to visit her

39:47

even in her late stages, and I'd

39:47

say mommy, how are you? Today?

39:51

She go, I am great. I'm alive.

39:51

And the alternative sucks,

39:56

right? So because she was she

39:56

loved life. And she was very

40:01

much in the zoo. And I thought

40:01

that was such a beautiful

40:03

sentiment because it is really,

40:03

it's beautiful to be alive. It's

40:07

a gift. And here we are the

40:07

three of us and we are

40:11

communicating. And you know, and

40:11

this is it's this is what it is,

40:15

it's now. And that's what it was

40:15

with my mom. And that's how it

40:18

is with you and G now is that we

40:18

you go in and you just embrace

40:22

it for that

40:23

season,

40:24

you probably take

40:24

the worst moment, you probably

40:26

take the worst moment with your

40:26

mom right now, wouldn't you?

40:30

Over? Oh, yeah. Not happy? Yeah,

40:30

you know, you have to realize

40:33

that when you're also

40:33

experiencing those horrible

40:35

moments, that this is better

40:35

than the alternative, you know,

40:39

let me share one

40:39

experience because I said, we've

40:44

been here now 13 years, and it's

40:44

an absolutely fantastic

40:49

retirement place. And so but

40:49

memory care, we've had friends

40:54

and people who've been there,

40:54

they're no longer with us. And I

40:58

think it's not only you and your

40:58

mom and me and Jean Alice, but

41:02

you also could be available for

41:02

some of the other people there

41:06

that may not have you and have

41:06

me. And I think of two instances

41:11

of people that I got to know

41:11

because I would never have known

41:14

them had done that been in the

41:14

same area that my wife was. And

41:19

so on two different occasions,

41:19

they were both women. And I only

41:24

knew them casually from being

41:24

down there. And, and they had

41:28

been ill. But what I remember so

41:28

vividly is one of them, both of

41:33

them in different ways. But

41:33

similarly is that they weren't

41:37

talking and they weren't, I

41:37

wasn't her husband. And I would

41:41

hold her hand in his I would

41:41

talk she would squeeze my hand,

41:48

she squeezed my hand, squeeze my

41:48

hand. So even though I was a

41:52

stranger in one way I was there.

41:52

And I think that it's not

41:58

insignificant, to be there to be

41:58

there not only for your mom, and

42:02

not only for me to Jean Alice,

42:02

but to be there. For others who

42:06

may be there may be for the

42:06

caregiver, not we're talking

42:10

about it because we can, there

42:10

are a lot of caregivers that

42:13

can't adult, and they may just

42:13

need someone to hold their hand

42:18

and to be there. And I think

42:18

that's where ministers and

42:22

priests and people of all

42:22

various backgrounds who helped

42:25

people is this to be there in

42:25

the presence and maybe the hold

42:30

the hand and feel it squeezed

42:30

and say you knew something was

42:34

going on because if I went and I

42:34

was just jabbering, I know how

42:37

to jabber and, and all of a

42:37

sudden, she squeezed my hand,

42:41

squeeze my hand, squeeze my

42:41

hand. So I think the squeeze of

42:46

the hand is is a very good

42:46

symbol because it tells someone

42:51

is there. There's someone there.

42:51

Yeah.

42:53

Yeah. 100% Yeah, I

42:53

mean, and that's, that's the

42:58

that is that's the way that's

42:58

the language, right? That's the

43:02

language that that person was

43:02

capable of. And she's telling

43:06

you so much and that squeezes

43:06

the hand. You know, and I would

43:11

my mom would do that towards the

43:11

end she would squeeze and you

43:14

know, she would smile and I go I

43:14

hear ya, I hear ya. I hear those

43:18

words coming. I know what you

43:18

think. And you know, I would try

43:21

to fill in for her because she

43:21

couldn't say the words so I

43:27

would really pay attention and

43:27

also you're so right and you

43:30

know when it comes to being

43:30

there for other people and I

43:34

also think that it it not only

43:34

serves them it serves us because

43:38

there's nothing better than

43:38

making you know that feeling

43:42

when you're there you walk out

43:42

and you realize like you just

43:45

made so many people feel

43:45

acknowledged and feel you know

43:52

that they're alive and they are

43:52

you know, you're giving them

43:59

you're justifying them and it's

43:59

beautiful and you you can't have

44:03

a better feeling than that I'm

44:03

telling you I highly recommend

44:06

it. I do it i mean i Who would

44:06

have thought that you could feel

44:11

so good leaving you know a

44:11

facility even a nursing home

44:15

where there's very you know,

44:15

people with high acuity but you

44:18

sing songs and people are so

44:18

happy and and by the way you

44:22

don't have to be the best singer

44:22

they'll be appreciative. That's

44:25

like you know join in everybody

44:25

and it's it is a beautiful

44:28

thing. Really.

44:33

And Max's Cat

44:33

Stevens is on point let me tell

44:37

you his this morning Yeah, we'll

44:37

cheer up everybody so well

44:42

morning is broken

44:43

is is is a old it's

44:43

actually an old where does it

44:46

come from the original? Do you

44:46

know Max?

44:50

I don't really know for

44:50

sure No. Okay. Because

44:52

I know it's like I

44:52

think it is some it's from a it

44:56

might have been from a A

44:56

religious poem or something I

45:02

just I know he wasn't original

45:02

when

45:05

we're talking about the

45:05

music, but in the early stages

45:09

it's not as true now, although

45:09

about every once in a while I

45:13

try to because when I was trying

45:13

to court Jean Alice when we were

45:17

college students, I knew she

45:17

would love to English literature

45:22

and music and and so when we

45:22

would meet I actually memorized

45:27

Shakespeare sonnet and then the

45:27

Shelley cited, you know,

45:31

Shakespeare sonnet. Let me not

45:31

to the marriage of true minds

45:36

admit the impediments. Love is

45:36

not love which alters which in

45:40

alterations finds, or bends with

45:40

the remover to remove all No, it

45:46

is an ever fixed mark, that

45:46

looks on Tempest, and remains

45:50

unshaken is the start ever

45:50

wondering Bard whose worst said

45:54

known, although his high be

45:54

taken, love alters not with his

45:58

brief hours and weeks, that

45:58

stretches out even to the edge

46:02

of doom. But if this be era, and

46:02

upon me proved, and ever read,

46:09

No man ever loved, but I think

46:09

that's one of the classic pieces

46:14

of poetry. But what does it

46:14

focus on? Love, love. And it

46:20

tells you that love is so

46:20

powerful. I don't think we ever

46:24

realize how hope and love and

46:24

peace are things that reach

46:28

deeply into the soul of a human

46:28

being in a way that you can't

46:34

explain. It's a mystery. And I

46:34

just think we don't give it

46:39

enough credit.

46:40

I Amen. Amen. Amen

46:40

to that. We really believe that.

46:44

Wow, this, this was so fast.

46:44

She's, do

46:48

you want to, you know, I just want to touch on the fact that, you know, you've

46:50

took everything that you have

46:53

learned and experienced over the

46:53

years, and you did create this

46:56

amazing book, releasing the

46:56

butterfly, a love affair and

47:00

four acts. And I mean, I think I

47:00

think you told me before we

47:07

started, actually, that you, you

47:07

wrote this for yourself

47:10

initially. Correct? Right? It

47:10

was nothing you were planning on

47:16

letting the world see.

47:18

Yeah, it was my

47:18

therapy. It was for me. And it

47:21

evolved. And as people learned

47:21

that I was doing it, they asked

47:24

me, How are you dealing with the

47:24

questions when they ask and I

47:28

try to relate or maybe in

47:28

answering your question. I would

47:31

tell them I've written something

47:31

last night about the horror of

47:36

it. And you know, I don't know

47:36

that. There's a chapter that I

47:39

wrote in there that it was based

47:39

upon a really life experience of

47:45

ours. But when we were leaving

47:45

Amarillo, Texas, where we had

47:49

lived for many years, and our

47:49

mutual friends all came

47:53

together. And they had a quilt

47:53

and they each had a square and

47:57

the quilt and some memory of our

47:57

time there. And we had the quilt

48:02

and they gave it to us. And this

48:02

was a true story. All really

48:05

true. But I kept trying to

48:05

understand what, what's going

48:09

on. Yeah, I was still trying to

48:09

be the lawyer and they figure it

48:14

out. And so we take the quilt,

48:14

and we fold it up and take it

48:20

out of town, a little Volkswagen

48:20

and put it in the backseat, and

48:23

I reach in to get my car keys.

48:23

And I don't have them. So I

48:29

think well, these are very close

48:29

friends. We've been here I go

48:32

back in there probably for

48:32

somewhere. So I go to the door,

48:37

and all the lights are out. No

48:37

one answered the door. No one

48:43

hears the knock. There's no one

48:43

there. And that was my fictional

48:51

way of trying to understand

48:51

where Jean Ellis was. And I

48:56

thought that wouldn't be one

48:56

hell of a position to be in when

49:00

there's no one there. And what

49:00

we're talking about here, and

49:04

we've talked about the last

49:04

several minutes, is it's

49:08

absolutely critical to be there

49:08

for someone to be there. Because

49:14

in that mind, which I don't

49:14

understand, I'm not a scientist.

49:18

Oh, I read tons and tons of

49:18

stuff, but I'll never understand

49:22

it. But I think it's the the

49:22

horror. And there's no one

49:26

there. It says he was there for

49:26

a mother and their preteen

49:30

Alice, I was there for two

49:30

strange women that I didn't know

49:34

well except casually, but to

49:34

hold the hand. And so I just

49:38

think that that's something we

49:38

do not want to lose.

49:43

I agree. I agree

49:43

wholeheartedly. That's a

49:45

beautiful metaphor that you just

49:45

said because that is I mean it

49:51

is the to think about knowing

49:51

you forgot something but then

49:56

not knowing where it is or what

49:56

it is that you know, I think at

49:59

some point in Alzheimer's it

49:59

becomes what is what is it? Even

50:03

right? And then having no one

50:03

there to, to help you through

50:08

that is is so frightening it you

50:08

know that? I mean, I get

50:13

frightened, I'm sure you have

50:13

the feeling to if you forget a

50:16

word, or you forget something

50:16

that you know, you know. And you

50:20

know I as the daughter, the

50:20

genetic daughter of my mom, I

50:24

think it's happening. That's it.

50:24

That's all. And my daughters

50:30

have to remind me, Mom, we

50:30

forget every day, don't worry,

50:34

we forget things every day. You

50:34

know, so but you know, just

50:38

imagine if you could if it was

50:38

you were in that situation, I

50:42

agree with you how frightening

50:42

it would be to be alone? No, it

50:47

would be so frightening. I

50:47

agree. You're a tremendous human

50:52

being will

50:55

read to get to know

50:55

you. I've had a lot of good

50:57

opportunities, or blue collar

50:57

kids who grew up in a blue

51:01

collar town and it had

51:01

opportunities we never dreamed

51:05

we would have. And this is one

51:05

of them. We never dreamed we

51:08

would live this long. And we

51:08

never read we will be talking

51:11

about this subject. And we are.

51:11

And I hope that somebody

51:16

benefits and says yeah, there's

51:16

a way we can make this thing

51:19

work.

51:20

I love it. I love

51:20

it. And I love how vibrant you

51:23

are and how you just, you just

51:23

did a wonderful role model and

51:27

your romantic to boot. And you

51:27

say and you do a great guy, you

51:32

know anybody's gonna do

51:32

Shakespeare for me? I'm in?

51:36

That's good. Of course, of

51:36

course, is there any last piece

51:43

of advice that you want to give

51:43

the audience if they are dealing

51:46

with somebody, or maybe at the

51:46

beginning stages, something that

51:49

you said you garbage dropped a

51:49

lot of beautiful things, but

51:53

anything else we didn't? You

51:53

wanted to say?

51:57

I would just say that.

51:57

I think we undervalue the value

52:02

of a great big O genuine hug.

52:02

Just hug me. Put your arms

52:08

around me.

52:11

Yep. I'll go with

52:11

that. Well, you've

52:13

heard us today. I

52:13

mean, yeah, you've hugged us and

52:16

our whole audience, I tell you

52:16

definitely. Definitely. You can

52:20

just feel it. You just emanate

52:20

love. And that's, you know,

52:24

that's everything. Is

52:24

everything. That's, that's why

52:30

you know why,

52:30

Susan? That's because,

52:34

well, love is

52:34

powerful. Love is contagious.

52:37

And love conquers all. So we

52:37

thank everyone for watching,

52:41

listening today. We thank our

52:41

very, very special guests, Matt

52:44

Sherman. Please do go look for

52:44

his book, releasing the

52:48

butterflies, a love affair and

52:48

for x. And we'll have all that

52:54

information online. like us,

52:54

share us love us. Absolutely.

52:59

See you next time. Subscribe.

52:59

Take care. Thanks again for

53:04

listening. Take care everybody.

53:05

Bye bye. Bye bye