0:00

Back once again

0:02

with all of

0:04

your podcasts, pros

0:06

and cons, where

0:09

we interview board

0:11

game pros

0:17

at board game conventions. Let's

0:20

go! Welcome

0:34

everybody to another episode of

0:36

Ludology Live from Origins 2023.

0:40

And today we have another special guest with us. It

0:42

is Sunday. It is the last day. It is quiet

0:44

all over. Yeah, it is. It

0:46

is. It's actually kind of remarkable.

0:49

It's kind of like this weird kind of like let

0:52

down. Not in a

0:54

bad way, but just like a quietness has overcome,

0:57

fallen over the whole convention. And

1:00

like last night, Matt Nye, who was

1:02

a guest today, will get Matt to

1:04

himself in a second. We were up fairly

1:06

late for two old dudes. Like we were what?

1:08

Yeah, two in the morning? I mean, that's late

1:11

for us. Yeah, but it's

1:13

the Saturday night. I think we're allowed to

1:15

do that, especially with like you said, with

1:17

Sunday being a little more laid back and

1:19

chill. Everyone's grabbing things

1:21

the last day, maybe a

1:23

couple last demos, but really it's that last

1:26

few laps around the booth. But we know

1:28

that we don't see each other

1:30

every day. So it's

1:32

like we want to, I sacrifice some

1:34

sleep to spend time with friends. And

1:37

that's what the late nights are. Yeah, and we got to

1:39

play some games that we've never played before and had some

1:41

fun. We did. It

1:43

was great. So it's Sunday. It's

1:45

the last day. You're

1:47

here at the con. First

1:49

of all, please introduce yourself. Sure.

1:53

We'll let everyone guess for an hour and then we'll get

1:55

back to it. No, my name is Matt Felisi. That'd

1:57

be funny. That should be the new bit. It's

1:59

the part. And then at the end

2:01

we say like Pokemon. Yeah, who's that

2:03

who's that Pokemon? Yeah,

2:06

yeah, you figured out by the job, but

2:08

uh, no, my name is Matt Felice I

2:10

am the the sales manager

2:12

of skybound tabletop. Yeah, and

2:15

yet your moonlight in what's up with that? well

2:17

No, I you know skybound doesn't we don't make

2:19

it to every single show and Origins

2:21

was one that we were not gonna be attending this year. We

2:24

as we gear up for a large Gen Con Presence

2:27

right and a couple new releases exactly. So

2:29

we have two new releases coming out and

2:31

I live fairly

2:33

close to six-hour drive to origins from I

2:35

live in upstate New York and Yeah,

2:38

I wanted to be at the show anyway. I want I

2:40

was gonna come and see everybody But

2:43

I have friends at wise wizard games who

2:45

were looking for volunteer help and listen

2:47

I'm not you know, I think a lot

2:49

of industry people are like this But

2:51

I've rarely come to a show just to

2:54

come to a show Like I've always either

2:56

volunteered to the booth or you know

2:58

Taking meetings all day long or you know

3:00

What one of the things like I

3:02

don't really just come to the show I

3:04

would rather find some way to help out

3:06

with a booth or someone that needs help

3:09

and which helps you Financially to get to

3:11

the show sometimes they cover rooms and they

3:13

pay they pay you per hour or whatnot

3:16

It's a it's a great way to get to shows if you're

3:18

out there and you're thinking I want to

3:20

get to Gen Con But I've never went and it's expensive

3:23

reach out to a publisher reach out to these

3:25

kids. Everyone's looking for volunteers That's how I got

3:27

in the industry and I'm sure we'll get there

3:29

later in the podcast But but

3:31

yeah, that's that's so I'm here with wise wizard

3:33

this week demoing I did bring the skybound new

3:35

games. So I've been showing those off to media

3:37

late at night and Yeah,

3:41

we're playing games. I'm seeing friends and having a great

3:43

time. Yeah, and I think that's really

3:45

what I needed This week

3:47

was that recharge of energy because

3:50

I we really haven't had it the same way

3:53

Since 2019. Oh, yeah, right.

3:57

It's like four years. There

3:59

were conventions here and there,

4:01

but really for me, GenCon

4:04

and Origins are like home base,

4:06

right? Especially Origins, because Origins

4:08

is chill compared to GenCon. GenCon is

4:10

rush, rush, rush. Origins

4:13

is like I can talk to people, like Pat,

4:15

Marina and I just had a great talk at

4:18

the op booth for like a half an hour.

4:20

I'm never going to get even

4:22

half of that time from Pat at

4:24

GenCon. Sure. Yeah. Unless I book it. You

4:27

have to book it. Which I will. Because you can

4:29

like, yeah, you can make all the plans in the

4:31

world for GenCon and 1% of

4:33

them will actually happen. That's right. You

4:35

don't know how busy you are at GenCon

4:38

until you get to GenCon. Have I ever

4:40

showed you my screenshots of my GenCon day

4:42

planner? I can only imagine it's the most

4:44

chaotic. No, it's very structured.

4:47

Oh, it's very structured. But it's end to

4:49

end. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I mainly

4:51

meant was that it is nonstop. And ours

4:53

was last year. So last year, actually, we

4:55

didn't have a booth at GenCon even, but

4:58

Ben and I did show up for Skybound

5:00

and we had end to end meetings every

5:02

day, whether we were pitching games to

5:04

mass markets, whether we were talking to new designers

5:06

or manufacturers or I mean, it's like the list

5:08

is endless on who we could talk to and

5:11

make meetings with because everyone goes to GenCon. Like

5:13

just about everybody makes it to GenCon. Anybody

5:15

who's there, anybody goes to GenCon. Really, they

5:17

really do. Yeah, I mean, they're flying in

5:19

internationally. They're, you know, it's the one to

5:21

be at. Yeah. And so Origins is a

5:23

little smaller, a little more chill. And that's

5:26

why. You get that vibe. That's why we can play

5:28

more games. That's why we can go out and play.

5:30

And what we play. I've talked to this interview. Yeah.

5:32

Yeah. So, Matt, tell me a little

5:34

bit about your origin. Oh,

5:37

look at you. You're good

5:39

at this. How did you get into the industry?

5:41

You used to work at a GameStop. Oh,

5:43

man. I mean, to get into it, I

5:46

managed a GameStop for 15 years. That

5:49

Is a long time. I was

5:51

with GameStop when they turned from

5:53

electronics boutique to GameStop. So that's

5:56

when I started. That's like my

5:58

childhood. In the dumb

6:00

and party still the transportation Canada like it's

6:02

There are some but there is. I think

6:04

the was as if they're starting transitional while

6:06

we're on Aug. I think they stopped at

6:08

a. While. The trends. Yeah yeah, so

6:11

I'm the Abbey in in even before

6:13

before game stop I've always. Something.

6:16

I've always strive to do ever since

6:18

I was a teenager and getting my

6:20

first jobs was I wanted to make

6:22

my job. Like. My hobby, My

6:24

job. Press. what? Like if I enjoyed something

6:26

I would always think to myself how can

6:28

I make money doing this together forever and

6:30

ever Yeah, that's the way to do it

6:32

yet. So when I gotta the high school

6:35

I was playing in a band and doing

6:37

guitar and I'm like how to wait Do

6:39

this for living in a so I've as

6:41

a successful I played guitar, I worked at

6:43

a music store or I'm yeah I did

6:45

guitar repaired. I did guitar instruction Agra Luther

6:48

I. I didn't build guitar oh no

6:50

as a that's that's i think what we were you

6:52

of the building of arrogance cause a significant well I

6:54

mean I like strung up guitars and to in them

6:56

and I could look into need them and you know

6:58

do some really fancy stuff but not like build a

7:00

mice Now I have a buddy who is a lutheran

7:02

built his own get harassment a school foreigners on a

7:04

class. she talked about the cat some time. I.

7:06

Talked to my package all the time I know, but you

7:08

to talk to a vote with years I will. Match.

7:12

For him, but it's there's a lot of madness of the

7:14

stream. And Eric's is

7:16

his ass. Yeah. so ah so yes. I

7:18

did the guitar thing for a while, but

7:20

at the end of the day I'm teaching

7:22

guitar. Working at this little mom and pop

7:24

guitar shop did not have benefits or as

7:26

I started to get a little older in

7:29

my mid twenties else like I kind of,

7:31

this isn't really going anywhere. I'm not becoming

7:33

a rock star which is what I wanted

7:35

to do. I'm digitally oh yes, get aspirations

7:37

of like rock and while we haven't really,

7:39

oh I'd Why did we played events web

7:41

to? Are we we we? I'm We did

7:43

little tours we recorded like for record. Yeah

7:45

we've done we we did this. we try to

7:48

do the thing and you know should I've heard

7:50

it think you will We we tried and we

7:52

worked hard in its som er band's called Hyland

7:54

Drive if you want to go on spot A

7:56

fine with me. Can we really songs now Still

7:58

I'm. But. Then

8:00

after that, GameStop, I was a big video

8:03

gamer. I've always loved video games. Ever since

8:05

I was little, having an NES, I

8:08

was a superintendent growing up. I've always had the

8:10

consoles. And I walked into my

8:12

local GameStop one day. And

8:14

their assistant manager was walking out

8:16

the door. And his name was

8:18

Mitch. And I go, Mitch, where are you going? I knew all

8:20

of them. I

8:23

was like, Mitch, where are you going? He's

8:25

like, I got a job in town and

8:28

a little bit better job. And

8:30

Phil, his manager, was right next to him. I go, Phil,

8:32

are you looking for an assistant manager? And he goes, yeah.

8:35

And I said, well, I

8:37

would love to interview. I'm also

8:39

an assistant manager. A

8:41

week later, I was assistant manager of this

8:44

GameStop. And then a year later, that manager

8:46

went to go take over a different store. And I got that

8:48

store. And I was there for 15 years. So

8:51

it was early days GameStop. It was a lot

8:53

of fun. I mean, it was crazy early midnight

8:55

launches. I mean, GameStop years ago was really great.

8:59

The industry was different. It was. It

9:02

had physical products. It wasn't everything downloaded off

9:04

the PS5 store. Then it's the Nintendo store

9:06

or whatever. But about 10 years into that,

9:08

I started to get into tabletop. A

9:11

little local board game store opened up in our

9:13

mall. And I started taking a look around. And

9:15

I'm like, oh, man, there are some cool board

9:17

games. Now, I've always been into magic. I've always

9:19

been into card games. I love trading card games.

9:21

Those are my favorite. And that's what I think

9:23

got me into it. Now, I used to play

9:25

a lot of Aliens versus Predator or Star Wars,

9:27

the original TCG, Magic the Gathering, Highlander, the TV

9:29

show, the card game. You remember that one? That's

9:31

actually a really good card game. It really was.

9:33

Like, we had a lot of fun with all

9:35

of those card games growing up. But

9:37

then a blind spot happened. I kind of stopped playing

9:39

games, keeping up with it. Well, because you were being

9:42

a cool guy, playing cool music, rocking it with a

9:44

guitar. Well, and I was playing a lot of video

9:46

games. How long was your hair when you were playing

9:48

guitar? Have you never seen my hair? Because

9:51

it was out of control. Like, it was down. I

9:53

had a giant afro that was like all the way.

9:55

I think I have. Yeah,

9:57

it was a really, I had a big afro. If you're, if you're.

9:59

If you're familiar with the band Coheed and Cambria, their

10:01

singer's name is Claudio Sanchez, and he has a big

10:03

afro, it's very similar to that. Okay. And

10:06

so, now I have very short

10:09

hair, and I'm working on keeping as much of it as I

10:11

can. But it's not working out so

10:13

well. You didn't have an afro when you

10:15

were younger. I did. Yeah. It's like staying

10:17

on your head now. I don't think I'm ever gonna have that again. Oh,

10:19

no. So I got into

10:21

Tabletop, and I checked out this little local board game

10:24

store, and they had some really cool stuff, and then

10:26

I was a big Star Wars fan. I love Star

10:28

Wars, and I saw Imperial Assault on the shelf, and

10:30

I thought, oh man, if I could

10:32

get some friends around, I would

10:34

only have friends. If I only had some friends in town, and

10:36

I had a couple, you know, and actually it was funny, one

10:38

of my friends who was a singer of this death metal band

10:40

that we used to play with, he was

10:43

really into it too, so he was in a D&D, and he

10:45

wanted to try this, so the two of us got together, and

10:47

we played Imperial Assault. I was the

10:49

Imperials, and he was the Rebels, and we

10:51

had an awesome time, and then that clicked, and I was

10:53

like, man, if this is, what else is

10:56

out there? And then it was just the rabbit

10:58

hole, and getting into Wil Wheaton's

11:00

show, Tabletop, and playing everything that they

11:02

were on there, and so everything that

11:04

they played was very good entry-level games,

11:06

and then I took off. And-

11:09

You can't deny the power of the show, of

11:11

Tabletop. No, no, whether it- It had a really

11:13

big impact. It really did, especially at the time

11:15

no one else was doing it, right? There wasn't

11:17

any full gameplay videos on,

11:20

and I think then the production value, even then,

11:22

was incredible. I mean, it

11:24

really looked good, and it

11:26

was an entertaining show to watch. So,

11:30

well, a couple years into having, then

11:33

Board Game Night happened, I've had friends over to the house,

11:35

we were playing all different kinds of board games. The

11:37

hobby was starting to come into play. I

11:40

was losing shelf space, so that's when you know you're into

11:42

it, when you're

11:45

starting to stack games on top of each other and buy shelves

11:47

for these things. But I wanted to go to

11:49

a convention, and I'd never been to a convention. I was like, man, I

11:51

heard Gen Con is awesome. I heard this is the one you gotta go

11:53

to, right? I heard Gen Con, this is the one I wanna go to.

11:57

And Mike Young from Plan B

11:59

Games. was put a thing

12:01

out on facebook in

12:03

a tabletop group that i had been

12:05

a part of that plan be games

12:08

is looking for volunteers and my friend

12:10

chris we said the sounds like we could

12:12

do this the way is the way in this is

12:14

one of the way in and i said i have

12:16

a little bit of experience with this and the

12:19

experience of this the the little experience i

12:21

had is actually a full other story on

12:23

its own i'm a friend of

12:25

mine is named lee mack entire he's an actor he

12:28

is the actor who played spartacus in

12:30

the spartacus show um

12:32

yeah and he was he's

12:34

also he was in um the flash is one of it

12:37

was uh the weather wizard um oh

12:39

yeah we've talked about him before yeah

12:41

yeah so um he

12:43

took over the original actor spartacus

12:45

passed away and he was the

12:47

recast yeah i was a fan of spartacus on the

12:49

first season when andy whitfield was

12:52

the um main character yeah fun

12:54

fact my son andy is named after him

12:56

uh after andy whitfield the original actor of

12:58

spartacus on purpose no i

13:00

named him after him like after you watch the

13:02

show yeah yeah yeah after

13:04

he passed yeah after um actually

13:07

andy uh whitfield during his battle of cancer him

13:09

and he got a tattoo on his arm that

13:11

says be here now which is just

13:14

you know the idea of making sure that

13:16

you be here now and you can be in

13:18

the president and i got that tattoo i have

13:20

a tribute tattoo on my arm and that is

13:22

well there you go so when leeham got the

13:25

role um he joined he was on twitter leeham

13:27

had 20 followers no

13:30

one knew who he was but i since i followed the

13:32

show so closely i was like oh leeham this is the

13:34

guy that's going to be the new spartacus so i followed

13:36

him on twitter and after some talking

13:38

back he was big into video games and after just

13:40

some casual i'm like leeham you're in the video games

13:42

you're like yeah i just played mortal combat and like

13:45

we got back and forth and uh chatting and he

13:47

followed me on twitter and i you know obviously

13:49

followed him back and we kind of became

13:51

just friends via twitter yeah and

13:53

he started making a card

13:56

game called monster lab he wanted

13:58

to kickstart this game and this This

14:00

was around the time I was really into games, so I reached

14:02

out to Liam and I said, Liam,

14:05

let me help you make this game. I'm like, this is

14:07

like my calling. If anything, like, my favorite

14:09

show, like my favorite actor, you know, my hobby that

14:11

I love, there was a calling for this. Oh, cool,

14:13

a lesson. If you let me write the theme song.

14:16

And he's so funny when he tells the story back,

14:18

because he's like, he basically was like, no, no, no,

14:20

I'm good, don't worry about it, you know? But I

14:22

bugged him so much that he's like, well, here's

14:25

the rule book. And I was like, you know, let me take a

14:27

look at the rule book. And so he sent me the rule book.

14:30

And I looked at it and I was like,

14:32

this is terrible. Like, it's just a rule book. The

14:34

rule book was terrible, right? The game wasn't terrible, the

14:36

rule book. And I was just like, I was like,

14:38

well, let's change this, this, this, you know, and kind

14:40

of give him some notes and send it back. And

14:42

he goes, oh, well, then he sent me notes back.

14:44

And we sent, and then, now remember, this is about

14:46

10 years ago at this point, maybe, I

14:49

put his game on TTS. Now,

14:52

if you know, tabletop simulator is extremely

14:54

popular now, right? Post pandemic,

14:58

well, during pandemic, really, like pandemic times, tabletop

15:00

simulator became the industry kind of standard for

15:03

creating, play testing your own thing. For better or

15:05

for worse? For better or for worse. It

15:08

is, right? Like, especially for so many people of

15:10

us who are remote workers and we're all over

15:12

the place. We're working your jobs

15:14

in California, but you live in like New York. Yeah, so.

15:16

By a couple of people, I don't know. So I put

15:18

his game in tabletop simulator and I started play testing it

15:21

with random people. I just, I would open lobbies and let

15:23

people jump in. And I would play it

15:25

and see if it worked. And then I would get

15:27

him notes back. So I ended up like developing this

15:29

game for him. And, you

15:32

know, it was my first kind of developed

15:34

game. And then there was this event called

15:36

Spartacon. Spartacon. In Waldorf,

15:39

Maryland. Spartacon is

15:41

a Spartacus convention. Is

15:43

that still going on? No. No,

15:46

it is internationally. It is in like UK, they have Spartacus

15:48

conventions, but not in the US anymore. There isn't, it hasn't

15:50

really been one in a while. But

15:52

Spartacon brought all the actors to Waldorf,

15:54

Maryland. And I, so

15:57

check this out. Before I was ever in the industry,

15:59

I told. Liam, I go, let

16:01

me run a monster lab booth for you. Let

16:03

me run, you're making this game. It's

16:06

about to hit Kickstarter. Let me do this for you. And

16:08

he goes, sure. So I was

16:10

Liam's guest at the SpartaCon. You were Liam's plus

16:12

one. I was. I had a, oh, it's funny.

16:14

I had a table, I had a banner. We

16:16

made T-shirts, we made promo cards. So this was

16:18

cool. We made these promo cards and I got

16:21

like, I don't know, 200 promo cards made for

16:23

this game. And we were gonna sleeve them up

16:25

for everybody. And so Liam, I

16:27

drove to Waldorf and then Liam met me in

16:29

my hotel room at like one in the morning

16:31

one night. And so there's

16:34

me, Liam McIntyre in

16:36

my hotel room sleeving

16:38

promo cards and just talking. Like a bunch

16:40

of nerds. Well, totally nerds, but understand like,

16:42

I'm also like internally screaming. This is really

16:44

cool for me. You know, this is my

16:47

favorite show. This is a great actor and,

16:49

you know, my soon to be friend Liam.

16:51

And yeah, so that went great. And, but

16:53

that was my experience going back to when

16:55

Mike Young asked for Plan B help. I

16:59

told him, I told him, I told him, yeah,

17:01

sorry, I told you it was a long side

17:03

story, but I go, I have a little experience.

17:05

Okay, everybody, every listeners, just so you know, this

17:07

is what every Sunday night is like with

17:09

Matt. For those

17:11

of you who don't know, I love anime. Of

17:15

course you know that because I talk about it a lot of the show.

17:17

And Matt also likes anime, perhaps

17:20

not as much as me, but perhaps more

17:22

than me in some ways. And so one

17:24

day we were talking just in

17:26

like Facebook and we were Facebook

17:29

friends. And at that

17:31

time I think, so this goes, this will go back to

17:33

Mike Young eventually too. It all

17:35

comes around. Mike Young

17:37

is at the center of the story. He kind of is.

17:40

He'll love this. We were talking

17:42

about this new anime that was

17:44

coming out called Demon Slayer.

17:47

And we're like, yeah, it looks really good. Matt's like, yeah,

17:49

it looks really good. Let's watch it. Like you should watch

17:51

it. And neither of us got

17:53

through much of it. And

17:56

a year later almost, almost a year later,

17:58

like we were like. I should

18:00

really get back to that. Because it was kind of cool.

18:02

Well, you know what's funny too, it was during pandemic times.

18:04

I was actually currently laid off at the time, which we'll

18:06

get to, but I was laid off. And we were just

18:08

communicating back and forth through Facebook. We were sending messages back,

18:10

like what episode did you get to? And you're like, oh,

18:12

I'm at three. It's good so far, but I'd like it

18:14

to pick up. And I'm like, yeah, I got to three.

18:16

But then yeah, eventually we just stopped. Yeah, at like six

18:18

or something. Yeah, yeah, we didn't watch it all. And a

18:20

year later we come back. Yeah, a year later we get

18:22

back, and we're like, we need to get back. Well,

18:25

what have we committed to each other to do this? Like

18:28

we're anime married now. And

18:32

so we committed by saying, okay, every

18:36

Sunday night we're going to get together

18:38

and talk about the last two, three

18:40

episodes, whatever we decided on, to talk

18:42

about this. And then other

18:44

people said, I would do that with you. Yeah,

18:46

so we invited some people. Let me make a

18:48

thing. So we started, we made a Facebook group.

18:51

We invited like eventually 60 people,

18:53

I think, maybe more on this group. And not

18:55

everybody comes. And for the first little while, lots

18:58

of people came, and then nobody came, and

19:00

then some people came. And it's really, you

19:02

know, normalized that around these eight to 10

19:04

core members who are there almost every week, not

19:06

everybody can get every week, and that's fine. But

19:09

all we do is we watch anime. And so

19:11

we've watched a lot

19:13

over the last two and a half years.

19:17

Yeah, I've watched, and again, I had

19:19

stopped watching anime. And this kind of

19:22

came from me wanting to watch more

19:24

anime. And I had missed a

19:26

lot of like what has been coming out. So

19:28

we run a poll in the group, in our

19:30

group chat, we all put up kind of like

19:32

different episodes that we would all like, and we

19:34

vote. And whoever, whatever has- It's very democratic. Yeah,

19:37

whatever has the highest vote is what show we

19:39

watch. So we may pick a show. Let's just

19:41

say we, at one point, we all wanted

19:43

to rewatch Cowboy Bebop, which is a classic

19:45

and still outstanding. And

19:47

we pick, so we do Cowboy Bebop. And then

19:49

every week we watch four or five episodes. And

19:53

then on Sundays, we get together and we chat about it. And

19:55

maybe we chat about it for half an hour. And then the

19:57

other half an hour, we just kind of talk about whether it's-

20:00

what we did that weekend or board

20:03

games sometimes or anything and

20:05

it's been really great. Yeah

20:07

and it's a lot of industry

20:09

peers in the group because that's

20:12

who are all our mutual face-back friends.

20:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not always

20:16

that. Some of it's like my

20:18

friend's son is in the group. He

20:21

didn't come much anymore but he did for the first

20:23

little while and then other people are like just friends

20:25

of mine or just friends of Matt's or friends of

20:28

other members. It's really fun. But

20:30

I do tend to get off topic and

20:32

our stories tend to go on. Just like

20:34

this. Yeah. Getting back to Matt's

20:36

first Gencaught experience. It was with Plan B

20:38

and I drove my buddy Chris and I.

20:42

At the end of the day, Mike Young from Plan

20:44

B Games and at the time they were doing Century

20:46

Spice Road and Reef

20:50

and I think the one maybe it

20:52

was right after Azul had come out. So it wasn't

20:54

the Azul year but it was right after Azul. That

20:57

would be 2018. Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. A few

20:59

years after Junckardt. Correct. So

21:01

I went out. So we

21:03

drove out. We're in an Airbnb. We showed up for

21:05

our shifts. I don't know if there were four hours. I think there were

21:07

four hours a day. So we had half the day to volunteer and half

21:09

the day to go just do Gen Con and we

21:11

loved it.

21:20

We had such a great time. It was amazing. We

21:23

were like, yeah, we were there. We were going to do Gen Con

21:26

again. It was just an incredible experience. We drove back and we were

21:28

like, man, I don't think I'm ever not going to do Gen Con

21:30

again. I think that's just something I do every year now, right? It's

21:33

just part of me. Mike reached back out to me and

21:35

he's like, you guys were good. Would you want to be

21:37

part of a demo crew that was

21:39

at as many shows as you could get to? We

21:42

both had full-time jobs. I was still

21:44

at GameStop and I had a house and a family. I

21:47

was like, I could probably do one other. I could

21:49

probably do Gen Con and if you pick one other,

21:51

it was Dice Tower East, which

21:53

was in Florida. I

21:56

could fly to that because we have a direct flight out that's super

21:58

cheap. Allegiant got me there for a little bit. like just

22:00

around 100 bucks or something. There was really nothing to get

22:02

down there. And it

22:05

was at those shows that we

22:07

were booth right next to Skybound

22:09

Tabletop. So it was Plan B

22:11

Games, Skybound Tabletop. It was James

22:14

Hudson, Derek Funkhouser, and Ben. The

22:17

whole team was there and that's how I got

22:19

to meet that team. And we just

22:21

hit it off. We were like-minded people. We liked

22:23

the same games. We would go out at night,

22:25

have a couple drinks, play

22:27

games and have so much fun. One

22:29

of the first, I think the nail in the coffin, as

22:32

far as me kind of like finding

22:34

my people, was we played

22:36

Pitch Storm. Pitch Storm. That

22:38

Pitch Storm game is epic.

22:42

It's like the Pitch Storm game that

22:44

never ended. I walked past you at like

22:48

two in the morning. Yeah. And

22:50

I went to play another game. And then I

22:52

finished that game and I walked past you.

22:54

I'm like, James, are you still playing

22:56

Pitch Storm? We played it all night.

22:59

We had everybody. It was a huge group of people. And

23:02

we played Pitch Storm. It was myself, James,

23:04

Ben. I think even Isaac Childress showed up

23:07

at one point. And we ended up playing

23:09

also fake artists through New

23:11

York and we kind of went from game to game.

23:13

But Pitch Storm was the one that we played so

23:15

much. We laughed so hard. Our face hurt. And

23:18

we were very tired the next day.

23:20

But that really did cement a bond

23:23

in the people that I met. And

23:25

it wasn't shortly after that that

23:29

I became friends with James on Facebook and

23:31

the whole crew. And James

23:34

had posted that they were looking for

23:36

a retail sales manager. Now that was

23:38

my title at GameStop. That was something

23:40

you actually had more experience in. I

23:42

did, yeah. But obviously a completely different

23:44

type of experience. I would have to

23:46

be, James knowing

23:48

that while I don't know the industry,

23:51

I do have some skill, a skill set. Yeah.

23:54

And he took a chance. I

23:56

know for a fact that there were people that

23:58

applied for the position that were- way more qualified

24:00

in the industry than I was. But

24:03

they didn't make them laugh at

24:06

digital. They didn't. Yeah, exactly. So,

24:08

yeah, so they brought me on. So Skybond, so I got

24:10

the job at Skybond tabletop as the retail sales manager in

24:13

2019. And it was like, that was a

24:15

great year. I mean, a great eight months anyway, before the

24:17

pandemic. That was like, you know, we were at two shows

24:19

a month. We were everywhere went to

24:21

Essen. I mean, we were like

24:23

on fire. It was in wonderlands with war was

24:25

like coming up. That was something that knew something we

24:28

were being shown. So it was on fire and

24:30

all cylinders until

24:32

2020. We launched trial

24:34

by trolley shortly, like in right after, right

24:36

in the beginning of 2020. We were Pax East with a

24:38

trial by trolley booth. It was incredible. And

24:40

then the pandemic happened and I got laid off. Yeah.

24:43

Then the dream was over. It was like, it was

24:46

funny. It was like amazing. And then all of a

24:48

sudden it was, it was, it was good. It was

24:50

done. Yeah. So let's

24:53

talk about a couple of things. Yeah. So

24:56

you got to work with plan B and

24:58

that is where we kind of met. We

25:00

did inadvertently weirdly. Yeah. So Mike Young, whose

25:03

name has been said now three times or

25:05

four times in the show, I should just

25:07

have like, he's going

25:10

to love this. Yeah. Mike Young is

25:12

a great guy. He also really likes

25:14

Chicago deep dish pie. I'm

25:16

going to respect my New York friends and not

25:19

call it a pizza. And

25:21

he really likes it. And so every time he

25:24

runs a con, he says,

25:27

Oh, Hey, send, bring your family. Come, let's

25:30

get, you know, deep dish. And

25:34

that's what we do. Yeah. And in that room,

25:36

you know, everybody's in the plan B shirts. And

25:38

I met all the people who

25:40

were, you know, really, they're demoing a

25:43

lot of my games too, because I had a

25:45

bunch of stuff with plan B or one of

25:47

the sister companies at the time. And

25:50

so it was really nice to meet everybody

25:52

and breeze through grab some

25:54

pizza. Mike watches my family

25:56

when I have to pitch. It's great.

25:58

Yeah. But you know, He

26:01

will watch the kids when I go pitch because he's an

26:03

elementary school teacher by training. He's really good with the boys.

26:06

And that's where I met Matt. Yeah, we were both

26:08

in the same room eating some pizza together. Even though

26:10

we didn't know each other, we didn't really interact too

26:12

often. I just remember them. I think I was with

26:14

people that looked like that's son. And I was like,

26:16

oh, cool, they're son. But then

26:18

we ate pizza and we left. But we

26:20

were in that room and now here we

26:22

are. We'll see each other every Sunday night.

26:24

Yeah, and in Origins. Yeah, and in Origins

26:26

and here doing some podcast work and everything.

26:28

Yeah, it really wasn't until you started

26:30

working in the industry proper.

26:35

So here's the thing. I think the volunteers are

26:39

like the backbone of our

26:41

hot experiences. Sure. Without them, nothing happened. Sure. If you

26:43

have a bad demo, you're not going to buy that

26:45

game. No. But also, I believe they should

26:47

be paid. And most people

26:49

are doing that now. So there's a lot more formalized

26:53

agreements between demo crew.

26:57

So they're not really volunteers anymore. Or

27:00

they're paid. I don't know

27:02

what to call them. But it's much better. So

27:04

long as a compensation plan is planned out

27:06

ahead of time, and if you do have

27:09

some form of agreement for both parties to

27:11

say, and legal agreements,

27:13

go right ahead and say, listen, here is

27:15

what the compensation is, whether you're paying for

27:17

the hotel room and food, and whether

27:20

it's hourly wages. However,

27:22

every publisher currently does it a little

27:24

bit differently. But just so long as

27:26

the term volunteer tends to go to,

27:29

well, they just get a badge. You

27:32

get into the show, and now you've got to work for eight hours

27:34

a day. And then that's it. But

27:36

no, you get more than that. Sure. Yeah,

27:40

you do now. Especially now, I think it's

27:42

getting better. But the volunteers are very important

27:44

to your booth and how they present your

27:46

product. Right. Which Pat knows,

27:49

because he's volunteering at a whole

27:51

other company's booth. Yeah.

27:54

I always want to be at these shows. I hate missing.

27:56

I get FOMO real bad if I'm just sitting at home.

27:58

Everyone's having a good time. So

28:02

when you started with Skybound,

28:06

James was still there. James is no longer there. Druid

28:09

City has been reclaimed.

28:13

Some games have left the Skybound

28:15

catalogue and went with James and

28:18

some stayed. And

28:20

so that's the big change since. And you

28:23

kind of ended your part of this road

28:25

with, and then I got laid off. Yeah,

28:28

well, nine months later, I got rehired

28:30

by Skybound. They still did need the

28:32

position. And at the time, James was

28:34

still there and actually very much championing

28:36

me to come back. Him

28:39

and the team were like, we really do. We have

28:41

a lot of, you know, we still have games to

28:43

come out. Yeah, yeah, we still need things. Exactly. So

28:45

they, so it's very fortunate and lucky for them to

28:47

come back. Now, when I came back, there was another

28:49

stipulation to say, well, Matt, you're also going

28:52

to do some work in the video game

28:54

side of the business. And I said, sure.

28:56

I mean, I know video games, so I'll

28:58

do some video game work and tabletop work.

29:00

So I kind of work in both departments.

29:03

Okay, cool. So what do you actually do?

29:05

I'm not saying you're not earning your

29:07

keep. I'm saying I want to

29:09

know. Yeah. What does somebody in

29:11

your position do for a tabletop

29:13

company? Yeah. So a retail sales

29:15

manager's main goal and is

29:17

to sell your game. So I mean, very

29:19

quite frankly and simply like, I

29:22

need to be the one that sells

29:24

our titles, right? And so how we

29:26

sell our, but who we're selling our

29:28

titles to is mainly distribution and

29:31

retail and mass markets. And also here at

29:33

shows when we come to shows. So

29:36

when you look at all the different, those are like our

29:38

main and also direct to retail, like retail stores could reach

29:40

out to me and say, Hey, Matt, I need XYZ.

29:43

And I'm like, of course, we'll get you set up

29:45

with our game. All channels. All channels. And

29:48

so, yeah, so it's a lot of making

29:50

sure that you stay connected with the distribution

29:52

partners so that they know about your title.

29:55

It's about working with

29:57

media as well. Like, kind

30:00

of drift into marketing a little bit, right?

30:02

Like you work with media to make sure

30:04

that your games are getting proper coverage so

30:06

people know about your games because with what,

30:08

5,000 games a year coming out, if

30:10

no one knows about your game, no one's going to buy your game.

30:13

Right. And so there's the marketing

30:15

element as well as far as growing

30:17

the connections and relationships with all of

30:19

our friends. I think you guys need

30:21

to recapture the old 90s

30:24

video games deal and have

30:26

like a Sonic brand and it's like Skybound.

30:29

The Yell Skybound. Oh, like Yell. Yeah. Like

30:31

SEGA. Skybound games. It's

30:34

in the game, right? Can

30:37

we take that? No, I think you would be really

30:39

mad about that. Yeah, I think you would be mad.

30:41

But yeah, so I agree. Like, well, it's funny when

30:43

I got first hired, I

30:45

wanted to bring some of that video game

30:47

marketing to tabletop without knowing anything about tabletop.

30:50

Just saying like, listen, video games does this,

30:52

this, and this. Why can't we do this?

30:54

Well, why can't we? Money.

30:57

Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, you

30:59

know, budget, budget, you know, we

31:01

talked about this many times with

31:04

other guests. It's like AAA has so

31:07

much money. Yeah. Yeah. And at the

31:09

end of the day, that's where it is,

31:11

right? Like Skybound tabletop is a small department

31:14

in a larger focus

31:16

on comic books and movies and teammates of

31:18

film and all that. And we, you know,

31:20

we are part of a merchandising team and

31:22

board games are part of the merchandising brand.

31:24

So we, we are just a little, you

31:27

know, group that is getting out these board

31:29

games and pushing them out. But what that,

31:31

you know, it's, that means, yes, we are

31:33

very passionate about what we do. We bring,

31:35

we, we all get hands on all of

31:37

our titles. We all develop, we all, you know, source

31:40

and work on the game. Because you're a small enough

31:42

team that you can do that. Yeah. Exactly. We

31:45

all collaborate every week. You know, almost daily

31:47

we collaborate on what we want to put

31:49

out. But what that also

31:51

means is we do have a smaller budget

31:53

to work with. And we have

31:55

to make these things work under that budget. And that's

31:57

just what it is. I mean, tabletop game. don't

32:00

make what a triple-A video game

32:02

makes and that's where your marketing

32:04

budgets you know get shaken out.

32:07

So I learned a lot from being under a bigger

32:09

corporation because of stuff like that right? Like at the

32:11

beginning I was just naive. I'm like well why don't

32:13

we have these big trailers and like presentations in front

32:16

of people to like show people our games and it's

32:18

like well the resources aren't there you

32:20

know like that's it. Interesting,

32:23

interesting. You could bring

32:25

one thing from video games over

32:27

to hobby gaming in

32:29

terms of marketing anyway. What would it

32:32

be? That's

32:34

a great question. I think one of

32:36

my favorite things that video games do

32:38

now and they have for years and this

32:41

is something that I've wanted for years is

32:44

every few months Nintendo,

32:47

PlayStation, Xbox do

32:50

these directs, videos.

32:53

They basically show you, they

32:55

create a trailer that's 30

32:59

minutes long that showcases

33:02

four or five games or ten games

33:04

or whatever and it's a very well-produced

33:06

showcase that says coming soon

33:08

to PlayStation right? Like here's and

33:11

they are announcements. They

33:13

are like people have never seen these games before

33:15

and it's like oh my god it's the brand

33:17

new whatever game

33:19

right? It's the brand new Uncharted, it's the brand new

33:21

God of War. It's the first time

33:23

anyone's seen it and it puts it on your radar

33:25

and they upload it to YouTube at a certain time

33:27

it's like the Nintendo Direct

33:30

goes live Friday at noon. Tune

33:32

in. Yeah. Everyone does and millions

33:34

of people tune in to watch it because obviously

33:36

it's Nintendo, it was even Mario or I

33:41

really really I would love to see a

33:45

tabletop company

33:47

be able to mimic that in some

33:49

way. Right. Where the announcements all come

33:51

together at a certain time

33:53

and people be able to bring that in but

33:55

then get the views and it's on YouTube so

33:58

people can go back watch anytime. Yeah. I think

34:00

it would be really good. And

34:02

it can be done by anybody. But

34:04

it costs money, resources, time, energy to get

34:06

the thing around. It's something that sounds like

34:09

it should be at

34:11

the distribution level almost, because no single

34:13

tabletop company, well that's not true. But

34:16

most small, single tabletop companies couldn't do that.

34:18

You'd have to consolidate it is what I'm

34:20

saying. Well right, you'd have to,

34:23

again that kinda comes out of the money, it's like you'd have

34:25

to find the production team. Which is

34:27

different than video games. Because video games,

34:29

PlayStation doesn't make all those games that

34:31

have the PS logo on it. They

34:34

don't touch almost all of them. They license the

34:36

right to make the game to a studio. Yeah,

34:38

well then they own a bunch of studios too,

34:40

right? Like they buy the studios which, you know,

34:42

so you see a PlayStation logo and it is

34:44

a different, it's a studio making it under the

34:47

Sony brand. But yes, Sony proper

34:49

doesn't make too many titles. Yeah,

34:51

so it's a different business

34:55

model as well. Asmo

34:57

Day could do this for all

34:59

Asmo Day titles, because they have many,

35:01

many, many speakers. More resources. Right, so

35:03

it's interesting to hear. Okay, so doing

35:06

some sales, doing a little bit of marketing. Yeah.

35:10

What is the current temperature,

35:12

what's your current take on the

35:15

market from Skybound's

35:17

perspective? Because Skybound has

35:20

kind of shifted a little bit over the last

35:22

couple of years, right? Yeah, I mean this comes

35:25

down to the split, right? I mean at the

35:27

end of the day. And

35:29

it's something that I'm still, you know, I'm

35:31

ultimately, you know, sad about because

35:34

these are my friends. And I mean it comes,

35:37

it's the difference, you know, you have friends and

35:39

you have business decisions, right? And business decisions happen

35:41

regardless of how close you are with somebody, right?

35:44

And yeah, I

35:46

think that the large, expensive tabletop

35:48

games, $100 plus, you

35:50

know, with- Like Wonderland's

35:52

War. With like Wonderland's War, like

35:54

miniatures and whatnot. You

36:01

know a larger company like skybound just didn't

36:03

see You know The

36:06

the value in it like they would a party

36:08

in like something and when I say party game

36:10

I just mean something a little, you know more

36:12

mass market friendly that might work Something

36:14

yeah, something understand totally that works

36:16

in a mass market, you know

36:19

And so when you when you take a

36:21

look at that and you just say, you

36:23

know We want to focus more on these

36:25

and it did come down to the pandemic

36:27

too because the pandemic inflated prices of shipping

36:29

Of costs of goods of cost of everything

36:32

that was you know That was another major

36:34

factor in saying like this is unsustainable. It's

36:36

like we're not like making money on these

36:38

things and You know,

36:40

so we just kind of like decided that we were gonna focus

36:43

on a different form of game and that's

36:46

that's it Like we're now, you know doing

36:48

those and it's it's still there's still room

36:50

to be creative There's still room to find

36:52

really cool games in there and have some

36:54

fun, you know properties to play with But

36:58

yeah, that was that was mainly the

37:00

big shift it's just you know the

37:02

size magnitude of the project So what

37:04

is a skybound game circa 2023? Well,

37:06

I mean those games right now are

37:10

you know, if I look at this the new games coming

37:12

out this year from skybound are You

37:16

know Affordable

37:19

fairly priced games that

37:22

They don't necessarily need to be party games we we

37:24

have us a little light strategy game this year as

37:27

well but something that is

37:29

easy to teach that a lot of

37:31

players can enjoy and We've

37:35

been working with online webcomic artists a lot

37:37

to Trial by

37:39

trolley was with cyanide happiness. We just

37:42

released no context by banana Chan

37:44

and Jason slinger Lind But that's with art from

37:46

mr. Love and Stein you

37:48

know, he He's an

37:50

amazing artist has a big following online So

37:53

we gave them you know worked with them to do a

37:55

game and we released a game called booty call Which

37:58

was designed by Dan stone He's

38:01

one of our Skybound, one of our own guys.

38:04

And that was with Extra Fabulous, Zac

38:06

Stafford, the Extra Fabulous online webcomic. Again,

38:08

really good friends with Mr. Lövenstein and

38:11

that's how we actually got hooked up

38:13

with them. So

38:15

yeah, so you know, and I

38:17

think with these, they already have audiences

38:20

that are looking, you know, for the game, you know, for

38:22

looking for games. So you have that. To

38:24

make it a good game for people that even don't know the art

38:30

or are familiar with the IP. So

38:32

yeah, that's kind of like where we're at now. We're looking at like lighter

38:35

party fair and games and working

38:37

webcomic artists or just games

38:40

that anyone could get to the table for, you

38:43

know, under $25, right? Like

38:45

you know, something like that. And that's just where we're at. Okay. And

38:48

how do you as, you know, marketing

38:50

and sales, more sales and marketing, but you do

38:52

both. How do you sell

38:54

that? Is

38:57

it different than selling a big box game? How

39:00

do you market that? Is it different than marketing a

39:02

big box game? Is it easier? Is it harder? I

39:05

mean, we're still, we learn every day. Yeah. I

39:07

mean, it's in and we, I mean, we had a game

39:09

that we made specifically for mass markets earlier in the year

39:11

called wine night. Wine night is

39:14

a game that is prompts. Right.

39:16

This questions. Yeah. It's

39:18

in whining is WHI NE. So it's, so

39:20

it's who has the best wine, right? It's

39:22

like, what do you, you know, just a

39:24

sample would be something like, I don't know,

39:26

what annoys you most about, you know, your

39:28

job or whatever. Oh my God, I hate

39:30

it when, oh, I hate it when this

39:33

or, or more, it's more specific than

39:35

that though. Like, and there's some fun,

39:37

cheeky kind of questions in there. Like

39:39

what's annoying if it's too big, right?

39:42

Like something exactly. And we, you

39:44

know, none of the questions are mature rate, but the

39:46

answers certainly could be. And

39:48

whoever has the funniest story gets a point. But

39:50

the thing is like, you don't have to teach this game. You

39:52

can take 10 cards to dinner with you in a dinner party

39:54

and it'd be a perfect icebreaker for the group. But

39:58

marketing that game has. a

40:00

challenge realistically because

40:04

you don't necessarily do the same route that

40:06

we would do with

40:08

our hobby games. We

40:11

would have to go, we want the audience that

40:13

isn't necessarily playing hobby games. We want all

40:16

different people playing this. So

40:18

yeah, marketing that game is different than marketing

40:23

like a hobby game, whether it be pirate

40:25

tales or anything like that. Yeah,

40:27

so it's a challenge for sure. Because

40:30

you still have some games that do fit

40:32

more into hobby. Yeah. And today

40:34

we were talking about Kim Joy. And

40:36

how Kim Joy, which is a game that I helped develop, didn't

40:40

hit the right shelves

40:42

in certain places because of art

40:45

style. Yeah, it was a little

40:47

more hobby strategy, right? Like it was a co-op,

40:49

a game where you baked together. Tough.

40:53

You mean when you would bake something and try to fulfill customer

40:55

orders. Yeah, no such thing. And Kim Joy, if you don't know

40:57

Kim Joy, Kim Joy was on the Great British Bake Off. I'm

40:59

not sure what season she was on. But

41:02

she was a finalist in her season of Great

41:04

British Baking Show. Yeah, she's fabulous. One

41:07

of the most pleasant, amazing people. Great to

41:09

work with. A very responsive, helped us out

41:11

a ton in marketing it. And her audience

41:13

was huge. So she brought people as well

41:15

to this game. But we used the same

41:17

artists with her cookbooks. And it turned out

41:19

to be a little more

41:21

in the young adult look,

41:25

right? So it got put into kids sections where

41:27

it could have probably been in a strategy section

41:29

and maybe done a little better. But that's part

41:31

of it too. It's hard. It's like

41:33

learning that kind of thing, right? You don't know

41:35

until they do the thing. Like the

41:37

buyer at Target says, oh, that goes in kids games.

41:40

No. So

41:42

how do you stop that? How

41:44

do you educate people? Because I feel like marketing

41:46

is a little bit of education, right? You have

41:48

to teach somebody or tell somebody they want this

41:51

thing and show them instead of tell them sometimes.

41:53

So what is that like?

41:55

Yeah, it's hard. I

41:57

don't think I'm not even sure I haven't had that. answer

42:00

for that. You just try to do

42:02

your best to displaying the game.

42:04

I think as gamers and as

42:06

people who sell board games, we know the best

42:08

way to sell a game is to play the

42:10

game. Play the game. If you

42:12

can't sit down and play a game with someone and

42:14

if you're not the one who made the game or

42:16

someone who works, you know, like I'm

42:18

selling my games, right? Like I can sell

42:20

my games the best to somebody.

42:23

But the best way to sell them is going to

42:25

be sit down to play it and at least show

42:27

them how it goes. That's why conventions like Gen Con

42:29

are great because usually big box

42:31

stores like Barnes and Noble and Target might be there. Yeah. And

42:33

they come by to your booth and they can see it

42:36

and then you can pitch it to them and they

42:38

can actually see it. Can you play the game? Because

42:40

then that's the thing. It's like, it's

42:42

not the buyer's fault. No. By

42:45

looking on the box. No. To making an assumption

42:48

if they've never played the game. No. Right?

42:51

No. There's a lot of risk when it comes

42:54

to generating the art for a game which is

42:56

going to basically be your main marketing component because

42:58

if you get a cover, right? It's childish art

43:00

and you do a big banner for that cover

43:03

and you put it all over it. Yeah. It's

43:05

not changing, you know? So yeah, I think there's

43:07

risks on all of that. Whether it comes to

43:12

developing, creating the art, there's a risk when you

43:14

put it out into the wild hoping it hits

43:16

the right audience. And it's funny

43:18

because I think gamers, people who are

43:20

more into the hobby, they

43:23

can tolerate or have an understanding

43:25

that really kitty art

43:27

can be on a really

43:29

strategic game. But

43:32

general audiences kind of

43:34

don't. They associate high-tech

43:37

computer-generated art with

43:39

heavier strategy.

43:41

Yeah. I think in... Like cartoon

43:43

art with like... Looking at games just this

43:46

week. Like that creature comforts game, right? I

43:48

think that does a really great job of

43:50

hitting its target audience. I think the artwork

43:53

and the weight of

43:55

the game Is perfect for

43:57

who's looking at that box. It's

44:00

kind of just like right there, Right like it's. You.

44:02

Know it's a little lighter for kids but it

44:04

also has a little bit us out of a

44:06

strategy and for the gamer. And I think

44:09

it kind of falls on the spot. Here's a

44:11

good thing they could try like I will. I

44:13

should show box art to some people in, say

44:15

what? Had a Gmt the soon

44:17

as would be sure, right? Yeah, but demographics

44:19

do you think would play this because a

44:21

lot of the boxes will just have you

44:24

know. Ninety Ninety

44:26

Nine. The Dollar. Yeah, yeah yeah, that's that's

44:28

tough. You know they the spear. We want

44:30

a pet. The widest that yeah, we are

44:32

you. Realistically, I think whether it when you

44:34

look at an age and a box. The.

44:37

Most important, over the first right? That.

44:39

A second or my ears like on his of

44:42

you know what's the max? It's it's it's it's

44:44

it's it's I really am Possibly this. Yeah, that's

44:46

why I think more and more you see ages.

44:48

Number. And we as plus I

44:51

think that's the most best way to

44:53

do gas and just A listeners. To.

44:56

Know that numbers don't necessarily mean that

44:58

a twelve year yet to be twelve

45:00

or thirteen to play this game. It

45:03

might just be that. There's. A

45:05

safety check Yeah, that somebody did not

45:07

do so. As so, the game has

45:09

to be rated at that age, so

45:12

there's that publishes so that. we are

45:14

vicious couple of of his last

45:16

and was wondering. You

45:18

know, What do you

45:20

see? You. Know your

45:22

future in the industry being in

45:25

terms of. Sales.

45:27

Marketing What's changed since before the

45:29

pandemic and now And the hotties?

45:32

yourself sitting in. When.

45:35

I would. I mean that's a good question. I

45:38

I I love to just explore every

45:41

aspect of the street whether it's more

45:43

marketing or more sales or I honestly

45:45

love development. I loved Him development. I

45:48

love being able to take a look

45:50

at an idea and make it the

45:52

best possible thing that could that it

45:54

could be like that helps you sell

45:57

the game as Louis. Do you think

45:59

more sales. Marketing people should actually play

46:01

the game that the sale in March

46:03

one hundred percent and another a I

46:05

ever school because there's when I when

46:07

if I'm pitching. will I? I helped

46:09

sell Wonderlands War. The. First run

46:11

and I developed. That. Was one of the

46:14

developers I make him I worked on a

46:16

game point of quite a bit I'm I hope

46:18

that through it's saw you know on. A

46:21

convention to or if you will and I

46:23

would pass along notes from the conventions and

46:25

then also just recommend what might work. I'm

46:27

on my network and something's made in most

46:29

things didn't but it was enough to say

46:31

you know developer would. Yet I was really

46:33

proud of Ice, but when you're proud of

46:35

that and now I'm going out to sell

46:38

it. I'm now really the champion

46:40

of their product. Dumber saying now you know

46:42

and you can use that You mean you

46:44

can use the in your cel mai do

46:46

all the time I say you know we

46:48

hear a new games coming out. I helped.

46:51

Put. This together so I'm really I

46:53

hope I helped develop this game and

46:55

I I think that's given a like

46:57

a for X y Z reasons and

46:59

it gets you more excited to show

47:02

it and your enthusiasm is. Ah,

47:05

It's. Contains contagious

47:07

that are not like Povich. The no,

47:09

no no no, your enthusiasm is contagious.

47:12

York's your excitement for games Contains Access

47:14

it is. yeah and I'm with the

47:16

i found that way back and gives

47:18

up. A I wasn't making this

47:20

video games, but if I was really excited about a

47:22

like a Final Fantasy. Or something right? Like

47:25

I'm going to get you to buy that.

47:27

Getting some. I'm going to come in and

47:29

say mad did you play that who final

47:31

Fantasy on the say yes I was amazing.

47:33

I love the I've You know I don't

47:35

wait if he had a way to lose

47:37

half yeah into and then you get people

47:39

to trust you and I think that's the

47:41

same here. I think you know specimen up

47:43

in the distribution partners when you're talking to

47:45

I'm or even just you know, people buying

47:47

games at conventions. You know they come up

47:49

and see you. You are someone who worked

47:52

on this game right? And you arcs you.

47:54

Are giving them that excitement? Sing on the

47:56

is! Matt knows. This I'm nervous talking

47:58

to get this game. I am. I

48:00

talk about this when I talk about sell sheets because

48:03

for those of you who don't

48:05

know, sell sheets are things that designers use

48:08

and publishers use them too. But designers use them

48:11

specifically when they're pitching to a

48:13

publisher. Well, and

48:15

then you take, you have a sell sheet,

48:18

pitch to publisher, then we make

48:20

a sell sheet to pitch to distribution. Those

48:22

are two different sell sheets. Yes, they're two

48:24

different audiences, right? But each of them does

48:26

one thing and it's make a promise. Right?

48:30

And I think that's what marketing is. Can

48:32

I make you a promise that you're going to want to buy

48:34

into? And then does

48:36

the product deliver is how I make the

48:39

sell, right? For pitching a game

48:41

to a publisher, it's like, I'm going to make you

48:43

a promise that this is a very fun game that

48:45

uses x, y, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

48:47

then we play it. Did it live up to the

48:49

promise? If it did, that's a pretty good sell sheet

48:51

then maybe they'll sign it. Maybe they won't, but

48:53

you know, you stand a better chance if your

48:56

game experience lives up to the promise that you

48:58

made on the sell sheet. So are

49:01

you helping to write like text for the back

49:03

of the box? Are you writing the sell sheets

49:05

up for distribution? Are you doing?

49:08

Yeah, so how we yeah, we I mean, when we get

49:10

a game that we're going to release, it's

49:12

like I will. So graphic design

49:14

is not something I

49:16

do. That's okay. I am sadly

49:18

not good at graphic design by

49:20

any means, but we have a

49:22

team for that, right? We have graphic designers, people that went

49:25

to school for that for a long time that make it

49:27

look very good. Very easy. But but what I'll get around

49:29

for them is I'll get around the copy that's going to

49:31

go on the sell sheet. We're going

49:33

to put you know, all the stats and what's

49:35

how much the game is and you know, just

49:37

all the box. How many keys? But the copy

49:40

is very important, right? If the copy is important,

49:42

what goes on there, it's the description of the

49:44

game. It's what's on the back of the box.

49:46

It's it's selling points. It's well, why

49:48

do you want to buy this game? You know, and

49:50

you put that on there. You also will add the

49:52

images that are on there are renders. And for those

49:55

who don't know, a render is just it's a it's

49:57

an image of the box that is just the box,

49:59

right? They can be used in various

50:01

formats. And it's usually the box

50:03

with cards displayed and whatnot. So

50:06

we'll give that to the graphic team. We'll give them

50:08

what they want and then they'll make a nice sell

50:10

sheet. So when a distribution partner looks at that or

50:13

a retailer looks at that, they say, oh,

50:15

I want this game in my store. I think I should

50:17

get a lot of this game. But the sales pitch has

50:19

to go along with that sell sheet. The sell sheet doesn't

50:21

sell the game on its own. I

50:24

mean, you can send those out, but unless you're doing, again,

50:26

the sitting down and playing the game, it's

50:29

still just a piece of paper. Yeah. You

50:31

know? So do you do that as

50:33

you're marketing to big box stores, to

50:35

mess, to hobby stores? Do you get

50:37

out there or are you able to

50:40

show them how the game actually works?

50:42

Sometimes, yeah. Like, would that be what you

50:45

wanted to do? I

50:47

would do it to everyone if we had the

50:49

chance. We don't have the chance with everyone. Some

50:51

of them only take pitches through other partners, right,

50:53

where we get them the assets

50:55

and then they get back to us a yes or

50:57

no. And that's when I know I could

51:00

have pitched it better. But

51:02

there are other opportunities with other, that

51:04

I do get out in front of

51:06

buyers of big box. And I get

51:08

to sit down and put together a

51:10

deck, a PowerPoint presentation that's four games.

51:13

And then I have the games with me and I'll bring up

51:15

a picture of, it's essentially

51:17

the sell sheet, right? The sell sheet. But

51:20

I'll have the game in front and I'll be able to say,

51:22

is this game work for your store? And they play it. And

51:25

then we just go to the next game and we do three or four games.

51:27

So if I had it my way, we

51:29

would pitch in front of every single mass market.

51:31

But we don't always get that opportunity. We take them and we

51:33

can get them. Right, okay. What

51:35

are other channels of marketing to mass

51:39

audience, not necessarily mass in terms of mass

51:41

gains, but mass in terms of large volumes

51:44

that you think are effective? Or

51:47

what are the most effective ways in general,

51:49

I guess? If you better save it. What's

51:53

the most effective ways of marketing your

51:55

game outside of like that we were

51:57

you're asking? Yeah, yeah. What do you

51:59

think? Outside of. playing it. So

52:03

again, another great question, right? Like,

52:05

and I think it's different

52:08

per game. I think dependent on the game

52:10

and the audience that the game is built for, where

52:13

is that audience? I think finding the audience is

52:15

number one, like maybe a hobby game. Maybe

52:18

the best place is the Dice Tower.

52:20

Maybe the best places of a review

52:22

from Tom Vass or a review from

52:24

a high profile YouTube channel that gets

52:26

a hundred thousand views or

52:28

more. Right. Um, or

52:31

it's an online written review. People maybe prefer that

52:33

format or it's,

52:35

um, Facebook advertising or TikTok

52:38

advertising, you know, or working with

52:40

partners on TikTok or working with partners on

52:42

Instagram who have large following. I think you

52:44

have to do all of them, right? Like,

52:47

I think you can't just do

52:49

one. Well, how do you know which one

52:51

works? What kind of metrics do you use

52:54

to judge? Like click through. Do

52:57

you ask people where they saw this? I

52:59

mean, there's, there's so many. There's too many.

53:01

There's a lot, right? And how do we

53:03

distill that down? So we know scientifically. Yeah.

53:05

Well, I think that's why we need someone

53:07

that just does marketing that knows that answer

53:09

more than I do. Right. Like, I

53:11

think we're working off of relationships we've

53:14

built. And I think we're working off

53:16

of previous experiences and previous like, um,

53:20

successes or failures that we've had to

53:22

make better decisions on games going forward,

53:24

you know, like, um, you know,

53:26

and I'll give you an example, I'll give you a very good example

53:28

of for wine night. Um, wine night

53:30

is not for the main hobby gamer. They

53:33

enjoy it, but, um, wine night was

53:35

for someone. So I decided and we

53:37

decided as a group that we

53:39

were going to go heavy into TikTok, but

53:42

we were going to go with someone who was

53:44

outside the industry. No one, they don't normally play

53:47

games, but they have a large following that

53:49

kind of is funny and like just, you know,

53:51

young crowd, you look at the age range,

53:53

you look at like all this stuff. More

53:56

expensive than normal. But

53:59

how would that do? And it got a lot of

54:01

views. I mean, we're looking like 250 plus

54:03

thousand views on this one

54:05

video. Well, apparently, Tapal, do you

54:07

know the board game Tapal? I'm not familiar.

54:09

Which has letters around a ring and you, like

54:12

the question will come up, like name a chocolate bar,

54:14

yeah, all the joy. And the next person is like,

54:16

Butterfinger. And the next one is a crunchy. And then

54:19

the next person is like, D, D, D,

54:22

right? That game

54:24

has a second life because of TikTok.

54:27

It has like two million impressions

54:29

on every video for a while.

54:31

And I think another good like

54:33

Doomlings. Yeah. And like, Doomlings, can

54:35

I just tell you? Can we bring in

54:37

that guy? Because. Well,

54:40

there is a Good Boy Noah

54:42

song about Doomlings. Do you know

54:44

Good Boy Noah? Well, that sounds

54:47

familiar, but no. Ayo Cheetah. Oh,

54:49

yeah. Oh, yeah. So they

54:51

hired. Well, yeah, yeah. That's the type. That's

54:53

what we were working for with a much

54:56

tighter budget because we have more than one

54:58

game. Yeah. Doomlings is just Doomlings,

55:00

right? They're kind of taking the exploding kittens

55:02

out where they're like, they are

55:04

that company. That is their

55:07

identity. But yeah,

55:09

the Ayo Cheetah, that guy. I

55:11

don't know how much that costs. I don't know. But

55:14

there was, I saw it every day. Yeah. And

55:16

it's in Target. Because I was already

55:18

watching. Yeah. Good Boy Noah videos because

55:20

I like cooking and I like hip

55:22

hop. Oh, and he's great. If

55:25

you put cooking and hip hop together, it's a

55:27

great video. So

55:30

we tried to do that with Wine Night Base. Sure. But

55:33

it got the views, but it did not translate

55:35

to sales. Okay. So

55:37

it did not convert the

55:39

way we needed it to convert. But

55:42

you need to do that, not just with one.

55:44

You need to do that with many so that

55:46

you get more lanes. Right. We're

55:49

doing that. We are going to do it again

55:51

with a game called Kiss the Goblin, which comes

55:53

out in Gen Con. If anyone's familiar with an

55:55

account called Roll for Sandwich, he

55:58

basically makes his lunch every day with. dice

56:01

and he rolls dice and it makes a

56:03

wild sandwich. Two million followers, Dungeons

56:05

and Dragons just flew them up to LA for

56:08

their premiere of their movie and we're

56:10

working with them. We're gonna do a video

56:12

for Kiss the Goblin. Yeah, because Kiss the

56:14

Goblin is a game that uses the alignment

56:17

system from RPG systems and it's

56:19

random so it's very funny and we're gonna do a promo card

56:21

with them. If you go to Gen Con you get Kiss the

56:23

Goblin, you're gonna get a roll for

56:25

sandwich promo card which is what's your favorite

56:27

sandwich, right? And so if you're a can't

56:30

consent, if you were random so the suck is

56:32

the Goblin works, you're given a random alignment. Right.

56:34

Now it would be secret, the group wouldn't know

56:37

but you would have to describe something

56:40

in that alignment. So I'm

56:42

either lawful, chaotic, neutral

56:45

and good,

56:48

evil or neutral. Yeah, so let's

56:50

just say you were chaotic, evil. Right.

56:52

What's your favorite sandwich as a chaotic

56:54

evil? Oh wow, that. I

56:57

would, I'm really craving a sandwich

56:59

that's you know, a bun

57:02

that is made out of wheat that is

57:05

ground from the skulls of my enemy, filled

57:08

with you know baby parts

57:11

covered in the blood of

57:14

you know, several horses. That's

57:17

what I would have guessed. You would get that if

57:19

you were a people. We would have both gotten a

57:21

point on that one buddy, yeah. So and that's that's

57:23

that's the whole game that it's super fun, it's very

57:25

simple. It comes out in September but

57:27

it will be a Gen Con. Tony Tran is

57:30

the designer. Tony Tran designer, we

57:32

cannot wait to get this out for

57:35

Tony and for Skybound and it's just gonna be

57:37

a great little party game in for roll for

57:39

sandwich. Actually Jake who is roll for sandwich, he'll

57:41

be a Gen Con. Oh wonderful, he's gonna be

57:43

a sandwich. Hopefully he can

57:45

like you know, his promo card, I don't have

57:47

that there. Here's a funny thing, I

57:50

love sandwiches. I've

57:52

never known about this guy until you started talking

57:54

about him. Have you seen the video

57:56

since? Yes, because you told me about them. Yeah.

57:58

So now I a fan. Now

58:00

you're a fan. So if you haven't heard

58:03

from Roll4Sandwich, go follow him on TikTok. So

58:05

now I will go, I will come see

58:07

him. Yeah, yeah, come see him. I'll let

58:09

you know when he's at the booth. We're gonna

58:11

set that up. I haven't dreamed that. You

58:14

might also share my dream, I don't know. Okay. To

58:17

go across America eating regional

58:19

sandwiches. Oh, I would do that. I would

58:21

do that so fast. Right? Just get in

58:23

the camper van. Just do the Guy Fieri

58:25

thing. Like just every little place that has

58:28

like what they're known for. Yeah, exactly. Like I want

58:30

to go to the place. The sandwich that this place

58:32

is known for. That's what I want. I want that

58:34

everywhere. And I

58:37

would do that while in

58:39

a camper van and making

58:42

games all across America. Is

58:44

that what we're doing? Are we doing that? We're

58:46

doing it now. I

58:49

mean, I guess we do kind of like we

58:51

try to eat, you know, when we go, so

58:53

I guess we kind of do that. We're not

58:55

like to do that. I mean, if you're friends

58:57

with Gerald Andrews, you will eat. Would that be

58:59

would that be something? Would that be show someone

59:01

would watch? Would they watch two guys go in

59:03

a van, design a game and eat food at

59:05

different places that they go? Okay, so Darryl and

59:07

I have literally talked about doing it. But I

59:09

would gladly do with YouTube. Hey, man, as long

59:11

as I can do at least just stop in

59:13

my town. Right? Well, that's the other thing is

59:15

we were thinking like, and then you talked

59:18

about this for 15 years. Yeah, we drive

59:20

down to Ohio, we pick up John, you

59:22

know, we drive across New York, pick up

59:24

Matt Nick, drive down the coast, so we're

59:26

in Boston, let's get some lobster roll and

59:28

go talk to you know, Debbie, you're coming

59:30

to me with we'll get some buffalo wings.

59:34

Whatever is whatever is famous in that area for

59:36

food, right? Go to Rochester, get a garbage plate.

59:39

Yep, that's what you get there. Yeah, see, I

59:41

know. You know about the garbage plate. I guess

59:43

you were a little close enough to Rochester. Well,

59:45

I did my I did my rotation by

59:47

clinicals in SUNY.

59:51

So there you go. Yeah, so I

59:54

was in Buffalo for every day

59:56

of my life for like a year and a half. So yeah, we

59:58

would go to we could go I mean, There's so many

1:00:00

places in Buffalo you could go but you go to Beef

1:00:03

on Wack. Yeah, you go to Duff's and you can get

1:00:05

wings There's Bar

1:00:07

Bill. They do great wings and buff beef on

1:00:09

Wack, but beef on Wack and wings is what

1:00:12

you do Yeah, totally not familiar beef on Wack

1:00:14

either. It's it's a big beef roast beef sandwich

1:00:16

and it The

1:00:19

bun it's the bun right the Wack

1:00:21

roll. It's called a Wack roll and

1:00:23

you got salt and caraway on top

1:00:25

Yes, but the and then

1:00:27

you use generally put horseradish on it as well

1:00:30

and it's usually very soft and it's incredible It's

1:00:32

like super hungry right now great sandwich with lava

1:00:34

beef on Wack right now, right? And it's it's

1:00:36

that's what I'm talking about that regional sandwich. What

1:00:38

is yes? What is your city known for? Let's

1:00:40

go. What is it known for that? You got

1:00:42

to eat the food. Now. It's in Germany for

1:00:44

essence It's like I was what like just give

1:00:47

me what's good here. You tell me. Yeah I

1:00:50

love it. All right everybody so

1:00:52

Matt that was great You

1:00:55

know, I do think in Eric and I

1:00:58

we will always get on our marketing horses

1:01:00

and like Ride

1:01:03

into the the sunset or I know this

1:01:05

is a mixed metaphor. So I don't know how it's

1:01:07

gonna plan out But yes, we are very aware

1:01:11

of like just how Marketing

1:01:13

is difficult advertising is

1:01:16

easy Yeah,

1:01:18

but marketing is hard. Sure. It's

1:01:20

I think so many people Especially

1:01:23

because a lot of people in

1:01:25

the industry are like pretty much one person shows

1:01:27

Maybe two people running this company

1:01:30

that's making games and they have

1:01:32

this idea that marketing equals advertising

1:01:34

But it does not know and

1:01:36

and that is what I would

1:01:38

love people to understand And

1:01:41

I don't understand because I'm not a marketing expert, but I

1:01:44

know that it's not the same So oh,

1:01:46

hey, I don't often do this on this show

1:01:48

But if you like podcasts

1:01:50

like Matt You

1:01:53

should listen to this one particular podcast and

1:01:55

maybe you should listen to this too Matt.

1:01:57

It's it's called under the influence. It's

1:01:59

a a marketing podcast by

1:02:02

Terry O'Reilly who was an ad man in

1:02:04

Toronto. And so

1:02:06

he was an advertising and

1:02:08

marketing for years and it

1:02:10

is a brilliant, brilliant podcast

1:02:12

about marketing. And

1:02:14

it is wonderful. So if

1:02:18

you are in the board game industry and just think about

1:02:20

like, I don't know anything about marketing. I

1:02:22

can do an ad buy. Anybody can do it.

1:02:24

Literally anybody can do an ad buy. Cause you

1:02:26

just pay money and you make up

1:02:28

the ad and it gets put out wherever. And you get the metrics back

1:02:30

and that's fine. But can you make a

1:02:33

marketing campaign? Yeah. That's totally different.

1:02:35

Well, I have a six hour drive home, so

1:02:38

I'll just, I'll just do it on my home.

1:02:40

Yeah. And it's fascinating because he tells amazing stories.

1:02:42

He also likes the Beatles a lot. So a

1:02:44

lot of the stories are Beatles related. Yeah. Well,

1:02:46

and that's the thing, you know, I, I'm

1:02:48

not by any means a marketing,

1:02:50

you know, professional, right? I

1:02:53

enjoy learning and getting better as we

1:02:56

go. But

1:02:59

things like that, like those podcasts or articles or

1:03:01

anything that can get you another

1:03:03

step up or something that will help. You

1:03:07

know, I love, I love listening to stuff like that. So yeah. All

1:03:10

right, everybody. We are going to say goodbye from

1:03:12

origins for now. I may have one more

1:03:14

recording. I don't know. We'll see. People are leaving. But

1:03:17

thank you so much for stopping by, giving

1:03:19

us your time, getting out of the

1:03:21

white, the wise wizard

1:03:24

booth for a second. Yeah, no,

1:03:26

I'm missing teardown. I ain't mad.

1:03:28

Yeah, right. And I will see

1:03:30

you next Sunday. Yeah,

1:03:32

I'll see you. I see you. Not this, not

1:03:34

tonight. No, we're not too late for that next

1:03:36

Sunday. But yeah, it's been fun. Thanks for having

1:03:38

me on. It's been awesome just to sit here,

1:03:40

chat. I enjoy any time we

1:03:42

get a chance to just talk. Yeah, it's great. the

1:04:00

Ludology Network. Check out all our

1:04:02

other shows on ludology.net. Thank you

1:04:04

so much for your love and support. www.ludologynetwork.com