0:03

We have completely incentivized narcissism. So

0:05

a personality style that hurts

0:07

other people is being rewarded.

0:10

And for the narcissistic person, hurting the people

0:12

doesn't even bother them. Online

0:15

dating is the mothership for narcissistic

0:17

people because they can use it

0:19

so skillfully. They're very good at

0:21

reading the data on another person

0:23

and responding in kind. They're telling

0:26

whatever story they need to get

0:28

sex. They are using it as

0:30

a validation seeking app. Buyer beware.

0:33

We have to give people permission

0:35

to identify what bad behavior is

0:38

and throw the backstory away. What

0:40

do you do if you're an adult child of a

0:42

narcissistic parent? That parent may forever

0:45

be a trigger of really early held

0:47

wounds. Gaslighting is such a prevalent dynamic

0:49

because it's a way to hold power.

0:51

Then there's a denial of

0:54

perception, memory, experience, or reality.

0:56

I never said that. That

0:58

never happened. That's not a

1:00

thing. You're not remembering that

1:02

right. You can't be

1:04

feeling that way. That's backed up

1:07

with there's something wrong with you.

1:09

Darvo. Deny, attack, reverse, victim, and

1:11

offender. The gas lighter gets to

1:13

maintain their power. And so that's

1:15

not a safe relationship. Narcissism is

1:18

on a continuum. At the mild

1:20

end, we're talking about superficial vapid,

1:23

sort of an overgrown social media

1:25

narcissist. But at the severe end,

1:28

we see the malignant narcissist. Far

1:30

more severe manipulation, coercion, exploitativeness, isolation.

1:34

Menace is always sort of hanging out there.

1:36

So it's terrifying. It's the last stop on

1:38

the train before psychopathy station. It's

1:41

Mayim Bialik's breakdown. She's going to

1:43

break it down for you. Because

1:46

you know she knows a thing or two. So

1:49

now she's going to break down. It's a

1:51

breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi,

1:55

I'm Mayim Bialik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And

1:57

welcome to my breakdown. Aubrey. What

2:00

do I say? Usually ours, but you could

2:02

have it this time, given the

2:04

episode that it may be appropriate for

2:06

you to say, my breakdown. Today it's

2:08

my breakdown because we are breaking

2:11

down narcissism, people. We

2:13

have become part of the trend

2:15

sweeping the globe and social media

2:17

and all the places where you

2:19

can find Dr. Ramani

2:21

Dervasala. She's a licensed

2:24

clinical psychologist. She's a

2:26

professor emerita of psychology at Cal State

2:28

University, Los Angeles. And she's

2:31

the lady, if you Google who's the

2:33

expert on narcissism, this lady comes up,

2:35

this doctor, and we get to talk

2:38

to her. She

2:40

is the author of multiple books. The

2:42

most recent is It's Not You,

2:44

Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People.

2:46

She's also written Should I Stay

2:48

or Should I Go, Surviving a

2:50

Relationship with a Narcissist, and

2:53

Don't You Know Who I Am, How

2:55

to Stay Sane in an Era of

2:57

Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. She

2:59

is a fantastic, articulate expert,

3:01

both from her clinical practice and

3:03

also from a vast,

3:06

vast body of research. She knows everything

3:08

about narcissism and at the risk of

3:10

being narcissistic and talking all about myself,

3:12

Jonathan, what do you have to say

3:14

about that? This is potentially a dangerous

3:17

episode to miss or not to send

3:19

to someone you know. It

3:21

could be that one in six people

3:23

have narcissistic tendencies or a personality. And

3:26

if you're in a relationship with that person,

3:29

it's not that you may not get what you want. They

3:32

may be incapable of having the relationship

3:34

that you want to have to feel

3:36

fulfilled, to feel loved, to feel connected.

3:40

We're going to explain like this is a

3:42

major risk for people out there dating or

3:44

who are in a relationship and who

3:46

may not be happy in it. Dr. Dravasala

3:48

is going to break it all down.

3:51

She's going to explain what narcissism is,

3:53

what it isn't, how to spot it

3:55

in a relationship, and how to try

3:57

and prevent it from taking over your

3:59

life. becoming a toxic source of trauma

4:01

for you. We had so many questions for

4:03

her. I think we got to all of

4:05

them. Also, if maybe you've ever

4:07

thought, were my parents

4:10

narcissists, how did that

4:12

shape me? How is that going to

4:14

impact what I seek in relationships, in

4:16

work, in friendships? It's impacting you. You

4:19

got to listen and find out if that

4:21

might be one of the key factors

4:24

that is influencing how you connect with people.

4:27

Also, she talks about where

4:30

our culture reinforces narcissism

4:32

in politics, in technology,

4:34

in business. It's like

4:36

a combination of thrilling and sort of

4:38

devastating. And we hope you enjoy it.

4:40

It's really a pleasure to welcome Dr.

4:43

Ramani Dervasala to the breakdown in person.

4:46

Break it down. Welcome

4:49

to the breakdown, Dr. Ramani Dervasala.

4:52

Did I pronounce your name correctly? You absolutely did. And

4:54

so well. So wonderful. I'll tell you, it's such

4:56

a good place because I'll say 75% of the

4:58

time it's wrong. So that puts you in a

5:00

pretty exclusive club that you got it right. I

5:02

feel very special. Thank you. Thank

5:05

you for being here. Oh, my pleasure. You

5:07

are, I mean, you're

5:09

it when it comes to the world

5:11

of narcissism. You are, I

5:13

mean, not only an expert and

5:16

not only, you know, an active

5:18

practicing therapist who treats people who

5:21

deal with all sorts of things.

5:24

You have really made a name for

5:26

yourself in the world of narcissism in

5:28

terms of really fleshing out what

5:31

it means, what it doesn't mean, how

5:33

it impacts not only the relationship, but

5:35

the person who is in the relationship

5:37

on the receiving end. I

5:40

wonder if, if you can just kind of

5:42

start us off. Can

5:44

you define, what's your favorite definition

5:46

of narcissism? Narcissism

5:48

is a personality, not a disorder.

5:52

And it's a personality

5:54

that is characterized by

5:57

low and variable empathy, entitlement,

5:59

great. indiosity, selfishness, superficiality,

6:01

a sort of vapid

6:04

attention to self attractiveness, that kind

6:06

of thing, excessive

6:08

need for admiration and validation,

6:11

arrogance, and a chronic

6:13

need for control. And I

6:15

mean, that's not an elegant definition. So

6:17

I mean, if we went to the

6:19

real sort of a thinner definition, it

6:22

really would be sort of narcissism is

6:24

a rigid and maladaptive personality style that

6:26

negatively impacts relationships. The

6:29

challenge with that definition is I think that

6:31

it, there's many personality styles that negatively impact

6:33

relationships and narcissism does this uniquely. I know

6:35

most of them. Yes, right.

6:37

Narcissism does this in a very unique

6:39

way. And I think the big difference

6:42

with narcissism and many other maladaptive personality

6:44

styles is that the narcissistic person does

6:46

well in the world. Do

6:48

you know what I'm saying? So it's

6:51

like, it's one thing if somebody is

6:53

sort of eccentric and odd and strange

6:55

and gets fired from jobs, that's a

6:57

very different public profile than somebody who's

7:00

charming, charismatic, compelling, confident, attractive, successful, very,

7:02

very different game. So then the person who's being

7:05

harmed wonders, it's gotta be me, because this person's

7:07

got it going on. That's a

7:09

really interesting rub because it's true.

7:11

When you think about a lot

7:13

of maladaptive, especially externalizing

7:15

personality disorders where there's a lot

7:18

of acting out, it can sometimes

7:20

feel really clear, right? Like stay

7:22

away from that or that's abusive,

7:24

right? Everybody knows it, it's textbook.

7:27

But some of

7:29

the most famous people that people love

7:31

to watch on the internet, some of

7:34

the most famous people that people watch

7:36

on television, some of our most prominent

7:38

politicians, some of our most successful CEOs,

7:41

one could argue all of our successful

7:43

CEOs, would technically

7:45

fall under this umbrella category. So

7:47

that's a really fascinating rub because

7:49

if we're focusing, as you do

7:51

in your work so beautifully, on

7:53

the person who's in that relationship,

7:58

this is the aspect of gaslighting. that often

8:00

happens and you talk about in, can I

8:02

hold your book? I wanna hold it. I

8:04

keep it, it's used. It's all yours. So

8:06

the book is a fantastic

8:09

title, It's Not You because for those

8:11

of us who have been in relationships

8:13

with these kinds of dynamics, you always

8:15

feel like it's gotta be me, right?

8:17

So the book is It's Not You.

8:19

And you talk about some of the

8:21

features of the narcissist and gaslighting

8:25

is one of them. Inconsistency

8:29

is another. A

8:31

notion of this accusation that you're too

8:33

sensitive, right? You

8:37

have this dimmer acronym. I

8:40

want you to talk about that, but I

8:42

also want you to talk about deprivation because

8:45

this is one of these huge features. You

8:47

know it when you talk to your girlfriend

8:49

and she's telling you about the guy she's

8:51

dating. And the phrase is

8:54

you're getting bread crumbs. What

8:56

is the deprivation aspect of narcissism? So

8:58

the deprivation aspect of narcissism is that

9:00

it, in many ways it's sort of

9:03

like a daily series of abandonments. And

9:05

we don't think of it as abandonment

9:07

because we think of abandonment as the

9:09

person who grabs the suitcase and leaves

9:12

the relationship, right? That's our classical conception

9:14

of it. But abandonment is that constant

9:16

turning away from attunement, the disinterest, the

9:18

disconnecting when they can't be bothered, the

9:20

not being available when it feels like

9:23

it's quote unquote too much. It's

9:25

the withholding, it's the withdrawing, it's

9:27

the silent treatment, it's the passive

9:29

aggression, all of that. Pouting.

9:32

But pouting, the sullenness, the resentfulness, all

9:34

of that falls under this deprivation. But

9:36

above all else is that you

9:38

can't count on this person. And

9:41

that's deprivation, right? Because in a relationship, the

9:43

duties of a relationship are such that we

9:45

should be able to trust this. A person

9:47

may not always have the answer. They may

9:49

not, they physically may not be available, but

9:51

there's a sense within us, a held sort

9:53

of sense of this person. But with the

9:56

narcissistic person, they're like slippery, like holding an

9:58

eel. You can't quite keep up with that.

10:00

them in your hands. And so there's often

10:02

this chase that's created that we feel

10:04

like we're trying to get them to look at us,

10:06

look at us, it's like a little child looking to

10:08

a parent like, how do I get this parent to

10:10

look at me, look at me, look at me? Well,

10:12

they're too focused at looking at themselves. And so they're

10:14

not gonna notice the child or the adult in their

10:16

purview. Can you talk about the

10:19

dimmer acronym that you use? Because these

10:21

are some of the most disturbing aspects

10:24

of being in a relationship with a narcissist. When that

10:26

acronym lined up, I remember it years and years, even

10:28

before I wrote the book, I wrote it, I'm like,

10:30

oh, that's interesting. Because it really does, it turns your

10:32

light off, right? Is it's dismissiveness

10:34

and devaluation and invalidation and manipulation,

10:37

mostly through gaslighting and minimization. If

10:39

it's your problem, it's not a

10:42

big problem. But if they were

10:44

to have the identical issue, it

10:46

would be closed down the bridges.

10:49

Like this is a disaster. It's

10:51

the entitlement that shows up as a

10:53

hypocrisy quite often in the relationship. One

10:55

set of rules for me, one set

10:57

of rules for you, and with no

11:00

sense of irony, and rage. There's this

11:02

constant walking on eggshells in these relationships

11:04

largely to avoid the rage

11:06

of the narcissistic person, which is always hanging

11:08

out there like a potential menace. And for

11:10

some people, it's the terror of having to

11:13

deal with that much anger. For others, it's

11:15

the terror that the rage might proceed an

11:17

abandonment episode. ["The Mind

11:22

Be Alex Breakdown"] is supported by BetterHelp. Jonathan,

11:25

can you believe 2024 is half over? I

11:28

cannot believe it. It's wild. So much

11:31

has happened this year that I think you and

11:33

I would both say we're independently and jointly proud

11:35

of, like in our lives and with the podcast,

11:37

but there's a lot more to this

11:39

year. We're not done. It's half full,

11:41

not half over. When

11:43

life goes so fast, it's important to celebrate what's

11:45

worked so far and see what you want to

11:47

shift for the rest of the year. Therapy is

11:49

a great way to help you take stock of

11:51

your progress. It's a lot of what I spend

11:53

time doing in therapy. I don't just

11:56

go in and complain and worry. I say, what's working right

11:58

and how can I do more of that? If

12:00

you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try.

12:02

It's online and designed to be flexible, convenient, and

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suited to your schedule. You fill out a brief

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You can switch at any time for no additional

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charge. Take a moment,

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visit betterhelp.com/break today to

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get 10% off your

12:17

first month. That's BetterHelp.

12:19

help.com/break. My

12:23

MB Alex breakdown is supported by Airbnb. If

12:26

you're the kind of person who knows that

12:28

you're going to be traveling for a certain

12:31

portion of the year, I

12:33

want you to think about Airbnb in a whole new way.

12:36

I just returned from the East Coast. I was

12:38

gone for quite an amount of time and it

12:40

occurred to me like I

12:43

was staying in an Airbnb. If

12:45

you are a person who's away from your home for

12:47

an extended period of time, you

12:49

can host your space on Airbnb. There

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are so many people who could benefit from

12:54

hosting their space on Airbnb. Also,

12:56

so many people put all this thought

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and love into their spaces. They have

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13:04

myself. Airbnb hosting is a way

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to earn extra money even if it's just

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when you're out of town. It's also a

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the amazing work that you've put into your

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space that makes it beautiful. Your home might

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be worth more than you think. Find out

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how much at airbnb.com/host. Okay,

13:25

so this is the dimmer acronym is super helpful,

13:27

but I think this is a good time to

13:29

sort of I want to take a step back

13:31

because a lot

13:34

of the features that you talk about that

13:36

are part of a

13:38

narcissistic personality, right? I'm not going to call

13:40

it narcissistic personality disorder because that's a different

13:42

distinction. That's not what we're talking about. But

13:45

a lot of these features, I think many of

13:47

us could say like, oh, I dated someone like

13:49

that, or my dad was like that, or my

13:51

sister's like that. Do you

13:54

need to have all of the things to

13:56

meet kind of your definition of narcissism? And

13:58

if so, what? What are the things that

14:00

you would say, these are

14:03

the things that you look for. If you're

14:05

not sure that you're dating a narcissist, here's

14:07

your list. So the things are the selfishness,

14:10

the, and before I

14:12

get to the second feature, I'm gonna break the second

14:14

feature down because it's probably the most important, but one

14:16

of the most complex, which is that lack of empathy.

14:19

I think lack of empathy might even be a bit of

14:21

a misnomer because it's a lot more subtle than that. It's

14:24

hollow empathy, it is shallow

14:27

empathy, it is cognitive empathy,

14:29

it is transactional

14:31

empathy, it's performative empathy. And

14:33

the problem with that is

14:35

those ways of showing up

14:38

with empathy, performative, hollow, transactional, kind

14:40

of look like empathy. It's like

14:42

Splenda. I'm like, well, my drink is

14:44

sweet, but it's really

14:46

not sweet, right? It's sort of

14:48

actually a neural reaction to this particular,

14:51

you know, whatever, the aspartame, but

14:53

that's not sugar. We're processing

14:55

it as sugar. So we're processing it as empathy.

14:58

Give me an example of what hollow empathy would look

15:00

like. Hollow empathy would be, gosh, you're

15:03

going through so much, Ma'am. I wanna help you

15:05

any way I can. Gosh, what you're doing is

15:07

so important. Please, I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna

15:09

help you. You're amazing, I'm gonna help you. So

15:12

you're like, okay, in a couple days, you're like,

15:14

gosh, they really said they're gonna help me, so

15:16

I need somebody to go do this. And

15:19

you're like, hey, you text them, hey, thanks

15:21

so much. You ask them, I'm like, hi,

15:24

yeah, like really busy, interesting time to be

15:26

asking me, like, did

15:28

you think I was, like, I'm not a personal assistant. So

15:31

you just sort of, like, so, does

15:33

that make sense? It's this sort of performative,

15:35

like, hey, I'm here to be your person,

15:38

I'm here to help you, I wanna support

15:40

you in anything you're doing. And then you're

15:42

like, oh, okay, great. And then,

15:44

and actually it's a real bridge of courage for

15:46

someone actually who even has a history of narcissistic

15:49

relations, just to say, well, this felt convincing, they

15:51

really wanna help. And then you ask, and

15:53

you're looked at with contempt or

15:55

dismissiveness or really? Or just they can't be bothered. They

15:57

can't be bothered, that's what I mean by, does that?

18:00

These are sullen, resentful, victimized, aggrieved,

18:06

passive-aggressive. Poor me. Poor

18:09

me and how dare, you know, the reason, the

18:11

only reason I'm not successful is I didn't have a trust fund or

18:14

I would be running this place. So there's a lot of

18:16

failure to launch there. So

18:18

whereas the grandiose narcissist get things done,

18:20

the vulnerable narcissist sort of walks around

18:23

with this kind of hang dog, sad,

18:25

save me, how come nothing ever goes

18:27

my way? Why isn't anyone nicer to

18:30

me? And

18:33

they can get quite angry. And their anger

18:35

is brooding. And again, very

18:37

passive-aggressive. It can be quite cruel. Yeah,

18:39

I was just gonna say there's a

18:41

real vindictiveness. There's a vindictive, there's a

18:44

poison to their cruelty. That's the vulnerable

18:46

narcissism. Next is communal. The communal narcissist,

18:48

these are the folks who interestingly get

18:51

their validation because all narcissists need lots

18:53

of validation. We call it narcissistic supply.

18:56

The communal narcissists get their narcissistic

18:58

supply by being perceived as

19:01

do-gooders, saviors, of

19:03

people who fix the world. These are the

19:05

people who do all this charitable, goody-good

19:08

stuff, and they're doing it to get validation,

19:10

not because of a commitment to the cause.

19:12

These are never gonna be anonymous donors, can

19:14

tell you that right now. They want to

19:16

be, and it may not just be donating.

19:19

It might be they're the person who always

19:21

brings everything to the potluck and cleans up

19:23

afterwards, but they need to be told, isn't

19:27

she the best? Oh my gosh, we're so glad

19:29

Mary's coming because she does it all, and

19:31

then Mary's okay because Mary's thought of as great. And

19:34

Mary gets the award at the big awards

19:36

banquet. So it can be small stakes, but

19:38

if anyone doesn't notice how wonderful Mary is,

19:40

Mary's gonna go real dark real quick. So

19:43

at the most extreme, a

19:45

communal narcissist sort of at the most severe end

19:47

of it would be like a cult leader, a

19:49

person who is claiming to do all these

19:52

good changes in the world. Magnanimous,

19:55

self-development oriented, that kind of thing,

19:57

but quite harmful, quite manipulative. speculative,

20:00

quite exploitative, then

20:02

that takes us to the

20:04

self-righteous narcissist. Now the self-righteous

20:06

narcissist often doesn't clock as

20:09

a narcissist. They're hyper-moral, judgmental,

20:13

rigid, cold. They're

20:15

obsessed with rules and order to

20:18

the detriment of the human beings around them.

20:20

So this could be the person who's got

20:22

a sick child but is still knocking themselves

20:24

out to get to Thanksgiving on time. And

20:26

it said like, listen, the little one is

20:28

sick. We're just trying to make sure they stop

20:30

throwing up before we put them in the car. But

20:32

little one is still sick and they get to Thanksgiving 45

20:34

minutes later and dinner's mostly

20:36

done. And they explained like, we said, we're

20:38

only gonna be about 45 minutes late because the child is

20:40

sick. I said three and

20:42

I meant three. And it's

20:45

a very, it is to

20:47

grow up like that. It is,

20:49

there's an obsessive, like it's obsessiveness

20:51

around rules and order and it's

20:53

a bit terrifying. And that's the

20:55

self-righteous. That's the self, I'm right,

20:57

you're right. There's a

21:00

real workaholic quality to the self-righteous narcissist and

21:02

a real sort of shaming of people who

21:04

might be down on their luck. Well, this

21:06

must be their fault. And

21:08

it's that, yeah. Next

21:11

we have the neglectful narcissist. So

21:13

the neglectful narcissist would be sort

21:15

of the narcissistic person who literally

21:18

is viewing everyone through what I'd

21:20

call an instrumental lens, which means

21:23

what function do you serve for me? And

21:25

so they may pay attention to you when they need

21:27

the thing they need but then they have no use.

21:29

This would be a partner who expects the spouse to

21:31

have dinner done and might say,

21:33

oh, this is real good pot roast. And that's

21:35

the extent of it. The dinner didn't show up,

21:38

they might get angry. But everyone in their life

21:40

is basically a can opener or coffee maker.

21:43

There's very, very little interest in intimacy,

21:45

closeness. This also sounds like a CEO

21:47

kind of personality. Could be a CEO

21:49

kind of personality. Not the grandiose version,

21:52

but a different kind of version. But

21:54

very much like a, there's no there,

21:56

there. There's no connectedness there. It feels,

21:58

it, it, it. very empty

22:00

interactions. And then... Finally,

22:03

we have the malignant narcissist. So this

22:05

is a good place to end because

22:07

this would be the most severe manifestation

22:09

of the narcissistic personality. Remember, narcissism's on

22:11

a continuum. At the mild end, we're

22:13

talking about superficial, vapid, sort

22:16

of overgrown social media narcissist, but at

22:18

the severe end, we see the malignant

22:20

narcissist. The malignant narcissist is all

22:23

the qualities of a narcissist,

22:25

but here we see far

22:28

more severe manipulation, coercion, exploitativeness,

22:31

isolation. Menace is

22:33

always sort of hanging out there. So it's

22:35

terrifying. I always say malignant narcissism is the

22:37

last stop on the train before psychopathy station.

22:39

Oh, okay. I mean, it really is. It's

22:41

quite severe. And you gotta

22:44

remember too, Ma'am, that these types can mix.

22:47

So you could have a malignant vulnerable narcissist.

22:49

You could have a grandiose communal narcissism. It's

22:51

like a choose your own adventure. It's like

22:53

Baskin Robbins. I'll have two scoops, a malignant

22:56

and vulnerable. Thanks. So if you

22:58

put like, for example, malignant and communal, that's your cult

23:00

leader. You put together the flavors

23:02

and you sort of see how these subtypes

23:04

line up. And that's why this isn't that

23:06

simple. It's actually quite complicated. You're fun at

23:08

parties, aren't you? Oh, not so much. I'm

23:10

the gal in the corner that's like, who's

23:12

safe to talk to? Well,

23:15

no one. Ma'am, this

23:17

is a great place to interject and

23:19

talk about how prevalent this is because

23:21

if it is on a spectrum and

23:24

people may have a little bit of each or

23:28

some of all, how do we

23:31

navigate? So to your

23:33

point about prevalence, it's tricky. We really

23:35

don't have good prevalence data. Narcissism is

23:37

a tough thing to assess. It's

23:40

also comorbid with so many things. This can

23:42

be borderline personality disorder that just hasn't been

23:44

diagnosed yet, meaning it could be a feature.

23:46

You said there's a huge overlap with ADHD,

23:49

with depression, with anxiety. Correct. It's

23:51

comorbid with so many things. So it's hard

23:53

to isolate it. It's hard

23:55

to accurately assess it. And what's really

23:57

difficult is it's hard to assess in

24:00

nonpsychiatric. populations, right? So a person walking

24:02

around in the street often

24:04

doesn't view themselves as entitled. They view themselves as

24:06

like, I'm efficient. I don't, I, you know, I'm

24:08

just, I'm making a comment on how this place

24:10

is. I don't think I'm more special than anyone

24:13

else. So there's a lack of self-reflective capacity. All

24:16

of that said, I'd say the spitball

24:18

numbers would be, if we included even

24:20

the mildest, mildest levels, mildest

24:22

levels of narcissism, we're

24:25

probably hitting around a one in six.

24:27

But if we were going to get more

24:29

to a more

24:32

severe, like the kinds of things that

24:34

would disrupt a relationship, leave people feeling

24:37

uncomfortable. Here, we're now probably talking more

24:39

like one in 10, one

24:41

in 12, right? But

24:43

it's still not, you know, we actually just collected

24:45

some And they're all on the dating app that

24:47

you're in. And they're all on the dating app

24:49

or your Thanksgiving dinner, ironic, isn't it? But it's

24:51

interesting because we just collected some fascinating data myself

24:54

and Dr. Heather Harris, somebody I collaborate with, and

24:56

are just our first run through

24:58

the data showing like this sort of disruptive narcissism

25:01

is sort of hinting at a one in 10.

25:05

I'm just, I'm not doubting

25:07

any of your expertise. I

25:10

just feel like this

25:12

term is very prevalent. People are using

25:14

this a lot. And you speak to

25:16

that in, in your book a bit.

25:20

You know, sometimes

25:23

people are just jerks, right? Sometimes

25:25

people are not

25:27

a match for you. Sometimes it's

25:31

not you, right? The question

25:33

I had, and this is part of your challenge

25:35

as, you know, someone who, who works as a

25:38

clinician, you know, I mean, you're seeing people in

25:40

a, in a clinical capacity and also in a

25:42

public facing capacity. Is

25:45

there value in making distinctions

25:48

between this feels like a

25:50

narcissist or this is just a jerk

25:52

that you need to stay away from.

25:54

What's the benefit to the nomenclature? Because

25:56

you talk about the importance of

25:58

not using these when they're

26:00

actually not applicable, because it loses

26:03

power of a clinical distinction. It

26:05

loses power of being able to

26:07

sort of target care. Where

26:09

do you fall on this? What's

26:11

useful for you? I think it's

26:13

much more useful. Forget the term

26:16

and focus on the behavior. We

26:18

have to give people permission to

26:20

identify what bad behavior is and

26:22

throw the backstory away. So

26:24

the problem is people say, I know he's

26:26

bad, but the reason he does this is

26:28

da-da-da-da-da-da-da, and they give a laundry list of

26:30

everything from a bad day to a tough

26:33

dad to whatever historical something or

26:35

other that happened to him. I said, I have

26:37

no doubt that stuff happened, and this behavior is

26:39

unacceptable. So as long as you're with this person,

26:42

you're enduring unacceptable behavior. And if you're able to

26:44

sleep at night, because you do a long string

26:46

of rationalizations, and as long as you don't make

26:48

it about you, okay, you do you. But

26:51

the more you make justifications and then even internalize

26:53

and say, well, maybe I'm a bad person for

26:55

calling them out on their behavior, then

26:58

it's a problem. The

27:00

reason for framing it as a personality style is

27:02

to really hammer home the point that these patterns

27:04

aren't likely to change. One of the risky bits

27:06

is when you think of us, when we frame

27:08

it as behavior, well, behaviors could be changed.

27:10

You can train a rat to push a lever. You should be able

27:12

to train a human being to change their behavior. You can train me

27:15

to sit at the chair. Right, there you go. Well, you might just,

27:17

you see, you could get up and leave. And so we'll see if

27:19

we could train you to do that. But

27:21

it's a, the challenge is that

27:23

when it's a personality, it's not just,

27:26

what the personality tells us, personality to

27:28

me is sort of like, it's a

27:30

predictive tool. It tells me how this

27:32

person is most likely to behave under

27:34

a circumstance, right? So the narcissistic person

27:36

is going to make the selfish decision.

27:38

The narcissistic person is going to be

27:40

careless. I can set a clock by

27:42

that. That personality is telling me that.

27:44

So I am not gonna count

27:46

on this person with getting the sensitive piece of mail

27:48

to FedEx that if they're on my staff, no, no,

27:51

no, no, no, Joe does not take

27:53

the stuff to FedEx. Nope, we're giving that to

27:55

someone else. So we now know that. Because now

27:57

not only might Joe forget it, he'll blame everyone

27:59

else for it. getting it. So in

28:01

a relationship, what does that look like? Is that

28:03

once you get that diagnosis or

28:07

once you are cued into

28:09

the fact that you may be in a relationship

28:11

with someone who has a

28:14

narcissistic personality, is that the

28:16

nail in the coffin? Are they not gonna change?

28:18

Like I've got a feeling devastated. They're not gonna

28:21

change. So you're staying in a relationship with someone

28:23

where this is what it is. So

28:26

you're gonna engage with it differently. I'm not even

28:28

in a narcissistic relationship because

28:31

it is sad. I wanna believe people

28:33

can change. That's a lovely belief. And

28:37

it ain't a thing. And in fact, there

28:39

are stacks and stacks and stacks and stacks

28:41

of self-help books in every bookstore that everyone

28:43

can change. And I'm like, yeah, not so

28:46

much. So hold on, I wanna stop you

28:48

here though, because if someone

28:51

has some sense of awareness

28:54

about narcissistic tendencies,

28:57

is it possible that there are behavioral

29:00

shifts? Like I don't want people to be like,

29:02

oh, once you get that label, you

29:04

can't be in a relationship. Okay, so let me

29:06

put it this way. Who stays with those people?

29:08

Lots of people, 50% of people. You

29:10

said forever forgiving, empathetic rescuers tend to

29:13

both attract and tolerate narcissists. Yeah, so

29:15

you keep making excuses, but here's the

29:17

rub. We all do bad things in

29:19

relationships, every single one of us, you,

29:21

me, I do a lot of bad

29:23

things. Everyone in this room, a lot

29:25

of bad things. I hope

29:28

you take responsibility, accountability, make amends, and

29:30

attempt to make shifts around that. Doesn't

29:32

mean you're still gonna be perfect, but

29:34

it might be like, oh, I did

29:36

that thing again. I am so sorry,

29:38

because you know what? That helps the

29:40

other person feel whole. It helps

29:42

the other person feel not crazy. And

29:45

they'll say, okay, she's aware, she's doing it. So

29:47

that other person now doesn't have to carry the

29:49

burden. If a narcissistic person

29:51

could get there, that's

29:53

75% of the way. But

29:56

to do that would mean an

29:58

entire reconstruction of their inner act. I

30:00

don't know many people who have that kind of money for

30:03

that kind of access, for that kind of therapy. If

30:07

someone were to come to you and say, I'm a narcissist, I'm

30:10

burning down every relationship that I'm

30:12

in, what would you say to them? I'd

30:15

say, okay, so let's do the work. And

30:19

that means taking responsibility. They might give me

30:21

their long life history. They totally

30:23

will make sense to me why they are the way

30:25

they are. Totally makes sense. One

30:28

of the biggest challenges in narcissism in

30:30

relationships, even as a shrink working with them,

30:33

is the impulsivity. They say

30:35

the things abruptly that are hurtful and you

30:37

can't take back. And they'll say, oh, I

30:40

just said that in a moment. Like you

30:42

can't have that many moments because those things

30:44

hurt the other person and you can't unring

30:47

that bell. And they get frustrated that you

30:49

can't, like, let me be impulsive. Like, let me

30:51

have my tantrums. Even a three-year-old is

30:53

not even allowed to have their tantrums, right? By about

30:55

three, we're saying to the kid, you got to get

30:57

this together, time out and whatever the hell that looks

30:59

like, right? So it's the

31:02

controlling of that impulsivity. I have

31:04

to tell you, the more adversity

31:06

in a narcissistic person's backstory, trauma,

31:08

neglect, attachment, fails, abuse, I actually

31:10

think the more likelihood we could

31:12

have good outcomes with them because

31:14

we can do the trauma-informed work

31:17

with them and we can work

31:19

on the regulatory stuff. We could address

31:21

things like, you know, that sort of

31:23

that, those sort of trauma responses that

31:26

kind of run ahead of the thinking brain, right?

31:28

You're giving me hope now. But

31:30

the problem with that hope is the

31:33

amount of vulnerability that has to be

31:35

summoned up. And it's really, you know

31:37

what it likened to? I don't like

31:40

likening narcissism to addiction as a clinical

31:42

phenomenology, but addiction work is lifelong work.

31:44

People who are in recovery from addiction

31:47

every single day. One day at

31:49

a time. One day at a time, one hour

31:51

time, one 15-minute chunk at a time, every

31:53

day is about committing to not using,

31:56

about humility and all of that. And

31:58

that's actually, I think a heavier. left

32:00

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32:02

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starts now. My

33:43

jaw is like a little bit falling open because,

33:45

you know, I really

33:48

I really enjoyed this book. I

33:50

got a lot out of it. I took furious

33:52

notes and, you know, a lot of things really

33:54

rang true. But I

33:56

think that I have a real sadness for.

34:00

and a real compassion for people who

34:02

might be seeing themselves in some of

34:04

the things that we're describing, the

34:08

most painful, and this is something I've done

34:10

some reading about, and actually Will Wheaton, one

34:12

of our first guests talked about narcissistic

34:15

parents and things like that in our episode.

34:19

When you have a parent who

34:21

is a narcissist, and obviously it's

34:23

gonna look different, meaning having a

34:25

parent who's, let's say, a

34:27

malignant narcissist is gonna feel somewhat

34:30

different than having a parent who's a

34:33

communal narcissist, right? But chances are you're

34:35

gonna get some mix. There's

34:38

a lot of talk, especially in arenas

34:40

that you really hold court in. In

34:42

the arenas of social media and where people are

34:44

wanting this information, there's a lot of discussion about what

34:47

do you do if you're an adult child of a

34:49

narcissistic parent? And I wonder if

34:52

you can speak to this because it

34:54

almost sounds like is a

34:56

relationship feasible that is satisfying

34:58

if you have a narcissistic

35:00

parent? The satisfying part is where

35:02

it makes it tricky, right? A

35:04

relationship's possible, satisfying, no, and that

35:06

parent may forever be a trigger

35:08

of really early held wounds. That's

35:10

the challenge with a parent, right?

35:12

Whereas in another adult relationship, you're

35:14

not gonna have that same kind

35:16

of like gut punch of

35:18

being in this person's presence, that even though

35:20

you're a fully formed 50-year-old person, that

35:24

the critical comment

35:26

from that parent can still bring you to

35:28

your knees in a way that it would

35:30

not with another adult relationship. You still become

35:33

the five-year-old child. Because that's not changing. That

35:35

you carry that. That

35:37

memory was once very much a threat. As

35:39

you become an adult, that parent can't really

35:42

harm you in the same way, but we hold

35:44

these things somatically and all of that. So I

35:47

do think that it's once a person,

35:49

if you can really radically accept the

35:51

limitations of the relationship and have realistic

35:53

expectations around it. Some people say it's

35:56

an amount of time. Like if I

35:58

can get through 90 minutes, but somewhere,

36:00

around 90 minutes, that's where they start

36:02

cracking. I

36:04

need to have someone who's almost their handler

36:06

for a family event so they don't blow

36:08

up a wedding or a baby shower or

36:10

something like that. What does it look like

36:12

practically to, because these are

36:14

terms that may not mean something if

36:17

someone, let's say, hasn't been in therapy.

36:19

What does it mean to have realistic

36:21

expectations and to be an acceptance of

36:23

not just a narcissistic parent, what does

36:26

it mean to be an

36:28

acceptance and have realistic expectations of a narcissist? It

36:30

means you know it's not gonna change, but it

36:32

doesn't mean you're okay with it. I think some

36:34

people take that term acceptance and twist it into

36:36

like, does this mean I'm signing off on it?

36:39

Absolutely not, you're not signing off on it, but

36:41

this is what it is. It's almost like a

36:43

rainy day on the day you were gonna have

36:45

a picnic. You don't say like, great, it's raining

36:47

on my picnic, it's raining on this picnic. We're

36:49

either gonna have to reschedule or put up a

36:52

canopy. And this is what I'm trying to teach

36:54

people is the equivalent of putting up the canopy.

36:56

Like, how are you going to work around these

36:58

rainy days in this relationship? Well, and also, and

37:00

this is kind of a foundation of

37:03

the work of places like Al-Anon, right? They teach

37:05

you how to deal with things that you cannot

37:07

control, right? And what that

37:10

looks like is, what does it

37:12

look like to have compassion that

37:14

is acceptance but not forgiveness, right?

37:16

For all hurts. Or engagement. Right,

37:18

or is it being able

37:20

to say, I

37:22

have done enough work on myself, right?

37:24

To heal what gets triggered in me.

37:27

I have enough foundation that

37:30

that can't hurt me anymore,

37:32

right? The challenge is

37:34

if you're in a relationship,

37:36

a romantic relationship, where you

37:38

keep needing things, meaning partners

37:40

need, it's different than a

37:42

parent because there's a constant

37:44

interchange that is very hard

37:46

to not have expectations about if you're

37:49

in a relationship. Right, so I

37:51

think that the reason people stay my aim

37:53

when it's an intimate relationship with a narcissistic

37:55

person, a lot of this comes down to

37:57

practicalities. Minor children, family court, doesn't.

37:59

not care for narcissism, it will happily give

38:01

50% custody to

38:03

a narcissistic co-parent, even if it's

38:06

the wrong place for them. So

38:08

it's minor children, it's finances, it's

38:11

culture, it's religion, it's

38:14

stigma around divorce, it's

38:17

fears of how other people will view it. I mean,

38:19

we can't assume we know everyone's story around sort of

38:22

beliefs and culture and all of that. That's one set

38:24

of things. Those

38:26

reasons are very, very real.

38:28

And people are saying,

38:30

I can't leave for these reasons. And I get

38:32

it, I understand what a person says. Also sometimes

38:34

the sex is good, sometimes they're funny. You said

38:36

a lot of narcissists, right? There's

38:39

good days and because of the gaslighting, you

38:41

have this notion of like, well, there was

38:43

just a good day, maybe it's me, right?

38:45

Maybe it's me. It's not you, but the

38:48

challenge is that can you, so I imagine

38:50

it's a bit like living in Seattle. Can

38:52

you hold on to those sunny days and

38:54

say, I am not working

38:57

today and I'm going out and I'm

38:59

enjoying this sun and then recognize that probably

39:01

the weekend's going to be a wash. That's

39:04

what it is. You got to ride those sunny days

39:06

hard because you're going to get a

39:08

rainy one and you can't be like, what do you

39:10

mean we're in Seattle and it's going to rain for

39:12

three days? I'm like, really, really,

39:15

really? Like it's going to rain and you've

39:17

got to prepare for that. Like enjoy the

39:19

sunny days. And that's what some people do.

39:22

They say this person, and again, there's levels

39:24

of betrayal in these relationships. Being

39:27

repeatedly cheated on might feel intolerable, right?

39:29

And yet they still have to manage

39:31

the minor child situation.

39:34

Being invalidated all the time or not

39:36

being listened to or ignored or mocked,

39:39

all of those things. Those, if

39:41

you don't have a lot of social support, that

39:43

gets a lot harder, but let's say you work outside

39:46

the home or you do have a

39:48

strong friendship community or a spiritual community, you

39:50

might just be able to roll your eyes

39:52

at the relationship and recognize like, I pulled

39:55

the bomb card off out of the marriage

39:57

deck and I'm just going to have to

39:59

ride this one. I've worked with many folks

40:01

where they're like, we're waiting for one to die.

40:04

And if I'm lucky they die first, then I'm going to have

40:06

a nice run when they're done. I

40:09

mean, they're not murderous. They're just waiting. No, no, I get it.

40:12

They're not murderous. They're just waiting.

40:14

That's really the tagline here.

40:18

Never wanted that to be my tagline, but sure, I'll

40:20

take it. I

40:23

mean, this, I think both of us are a little bit, our

40:26

jaws are dropped. Maim's comment

40:29

about having acceptance and working

40:31

through Al-Anon and setting the

40:33

boundaries, it kind of struck

40:35

me as like, oh, that's a great approach.

40:37

But then it made me realize that you

40:40

can never really bring those

40:43

issues to the narcissist because if they're

40:45

truly lack empathy, they're not

40:47

going to admit it. So you can

40:50

set your boundaries and you can know yourself

40:52

and you can talk to your group or

40:54

your support, but

40:57

there will always be an emptiness

40:59

or an absence in the connection.

41:01

And that's really what's striking in

41:04

that description. And I think it's the

41:06

radical acceptance that it will be an emptiness

41:08

in the connection. And then that's why you

41:10

have to be very, very, very clear on

41:13

what's keeping you in the game. So

41:15

that's where there's almost a meaning and purpose

41:18

and intention place to this. Like I'm staying

41:20

in this because I want to see my

41:22

kids seven days a week. I don't want

41:24

joint custody of these kids. And I don't

41:26

care about this marriage and this marriage is

41:28

just something I wish didn't exist, but I'm

41:30

putting all my focus on these kids. How

41:32

many of your, what percentage do you think

41:34

of the clients that you see choose that

41:36

path of radical acceptance as opposed to leaving?

41:39

Wow. And it's hard. It's hard. But

41:42

it's also hard for the 70% who leave and

41:44

are dealing with my kids come back to me

41:46

and they're a mess and they're confused. I mean,

41:49

I don't think there's a good path forward. I

41:52

think it varies situation to situation. Listen, we're doing

41:54

this podcast in Los Angeles where rents are in

41:56

the thousands per month. A lot of people can't

41:58

afford to pay to rent. It's

42:00

just not within their reach. So these

42:02

are really uncomfortable compromises that need to

42:04

be made. And people are literally counting

42:06

down to midnight on their children's 18th

42:08

birthday. And the next day they file

42:10

for divorce. Because nurses don't

42:13

make great co-parents. They don't make people in

42:15

relationships. In fact, it's almost

42:17

harder because in a way, if

42:20

the narcissistic person didn't want the divorce, and they

42:22

may not. Because for example,

42:24

keep in mind too how community property works. The

42:27

half the money goes out the door. And the

42:29

narcissistic person seems to think again, the

42:31

entitlement that they'll be the exception to the rule of

42:33

community property. Or they didn't have a prenup or something

42:35

like that. So they don't want to give up on

42:37

that. So if somebody leaves

42:39

them and they're having to pay out stuff

42:41

that they believe is theirs, then

42:43

they get very bitter and resentful. And there

42:45

can be years of what we call post-separation

42:47

abuse. And usually one of the main weapons

42:49

in that post-separation abuse are the children. Knowing

42:53

that the numbers are potentially one

42:55

in six people having a

42:57

narcissistic personality. Of some level. Or

43:00

one in 10. Yeah. What

43:04

do you do? Like if people

43:06

knew this ahead of time and they

43:08

had the crystal ball and they weren't

43:11

drunk on love chemicals for the first

43:13

few weeks or months of the relationship,

43:15

and they could hold off getting

43:18

married or getting entangled to

43:20

the point of not being able

43:22

to extricate themselves from a relationship. Do

43:26

the one in 10 people just not have

43:28

partners? Do they date each other? What happens

43:30

when two narcissists date? Are

43:32

they happy with each other or

43:35

is it more conflict? Here's the thing. I'll

43:38

answer your second question first and I'm gonna go back to

43:40

an earlier point you were making. Two

43:42

narcissists get together all the time. I

43:45

mean, think about it. They're superficial and

43:47

vapid. So you've got these two gorgeous

43:49

people who just like attention and making

43:51

themselves the most Instagramable couple in the

43:54

world and attention seeking and fabulosity all

43:56

around. Like you can imagine narcissists get

43:58

together all the time. It's

44:00

volatile. It's sort of a competition of who

44:03

gets the most attention. I'm thinking of actor

44:05

personalities. Actor personalities, yeah. Two famous awesome people

44:07

and like, I mean, not naming names, but

44:09

it's like a thing. And it's a mess.

44:11

And it's, you know, and here's

44:13

the thing. And so it happens all the time. And

44:15

it would be, it's great when they get together. It

44:17

really is, as long as they don't have kids. Because

44:20

then they really harm those kids. And

44:23

so since we're never going to have a situation

44:25

where we can mandate, well, I'm two narcissists to

44:27

get together, you can't have children. That

44:29

to me, that collateral damage is a lot.

44:31

But if they get together and don't have

44:33

kids, then that's great. We've just gotten two

44:35

off the island. So great. And they're probably

44:38

going to have a great time. And it's

44:40

a love bomb fight, scream, make up sex,

44:43

pout on social media, you

44:45

know, be hot together on social media. Great.

44:49

But the other issue, this idea of

44:51

what do the rest of us do,

44:54

it's not that simple. And I think

44:56

that this has reached beyond just individual

44:58

relationships. It's sort of how do we

45:01

take the blame for harmful institutions, harmful

45:03

governments, harmful rules, harmful systems. We

45:06

internalize all of this. But I think that, and

45:08

it's also not as simple as I'm in a

45:10

relationship with somebody and it was

45:12

really great and now it's really bad because we

45:14

don't come into a relationship anew. Our

45:16

nervous systems have been shaped by a

45:19

lifetime of conditioning. And if part of

45:21

that conditioning was early life trauma or

45:23

early life narcissistic relationships, this feels like

45:25

normal. So people aren't going to question

45:27

it. And then to your

45:29

final point, we are never going to

45:31

live in a world where I or

45:33

anybody else is going to convince people,

45:36

hey, you met someone attractive, charming, charismatic

45:38

and compelling at a party. Don't talk

45:40

to them. Talk to that kind of

45:42

ordinary person in the corner. Who does

45:44

that? You'd have to

45:46

change the entire genre of rom-coms and fairy

45:48

tales. I mean, it's

45:50

a, these are compelling people.

45:52

These are financially successful people. These are

45:55

the people you bring home and everyone's

45:57

applauding you for finding the great. partner.

45:59

Okay, so this is what this is

46:01

sort of one

46:04

of the points that I think it's like

46:06

the elephant in the room because it's

46:08

not that you know having narcissistic

46:11

tendency genes make you more attractive, it's

46:14

that people who have a easier

46:16

time socially right might be more

46:18

likely to have these kinds of

46:20

features when things are coming easier

46:22

to them. I mean Jonathan

46:25

was asking like are all narcissists

46:27

attractive? The notion is not

46:29

that they're all attractive but the idea

46:31

that that someone let's say might have

46:33

more ease in a culture that favors

46:35

let's say attractiveness which you know or

46:37

money right or those kinds

46:39

of things those people then are

46:41

having access right to a different population

46:44

of people to manipulate. Yes they have

46:46

access to more people to manipulate because

46:48

listen everybody thinks they're the exception to

46:50

the rule until it happens to them.

46:52

I was just recently having a conversation

46:54

with someone who's friend so he's happy

46:56

for me that my book did well

46:58

but he's like he's like when you put this out

47:01

I didn't think anyone was gonna buy it and and

47:03

he's like and he got a month on the list and

47:05

he's like how did that happen I said because it's a

47:07

thing and he said it's not happened in my life so

47:10

there are there people out there who've had

47:12

these these lies of divine providence? Here's the

47:14

rule if you think it hasn't happened in

47:17

your life you're the narcissist. Right or you're

47:19

lucky and it's going to or you

47:21

live in a very very very small

47:23

tiny way. No it's the you're the

47:25

narcissist. Probably. Or you're privileged

47:28

and so you're kind of untouchable you

47:30

know because I have I have to say one

47:32

group that sometimes doesn't get it are people who

47:34

have a ton of money and power and because

47:36

everyone around them is bought and paid for they

47:38

don't have to deal with that kind of lip

47:40

and you know they can they so they they

47:42

have no one challenges them so they their

47:45

lives look big but they actually aren't big because

47:48

they're their feet rarely touch the floor they aren't

47:50

dealing with like you know sitting in the road

47:52

31C or anything like that they're everything's easy for

47:54

them so I think some of them don't actually

47:56

fully get this and some of them often are

47:59

of the narcissist. Okay, so let's

48:01

also talk about some of the skills

48:05

that narcissists have.

48:09

We live in a culture, and I'm

48:11

speaking specifically of capitalism, you know,

48:13

this kind of Western culture. We

48:16

live in a culture where those

48:18

features are in many cases applauded

48:22

and rewarded. And

48:24

there's a whole, there's a subset of people,

48:27

and I've seen them on the internet. It's

48:30

not always men, but there's

48:32

a lot of men who have

48:35

an extreme adoration

48:38

and almost idolatry for

48:42

narcissists of this variety who are

48:44

very successful. I

48:46

wonder if you can speak to

48:48

this kind of double-edged sword of

48:50

no one wants to be in

48:52

a relationship with someone who would

48:54

treat you horribly. However, those

48:57

features help people get ahead in

48:59

ways that we just as a

49:01

society keep reinforcing. Well, and that's

49:04

the rub though, we do. We

49:06

have completely incentivized narcissism. So a

49:08

personality style that hurts other people

49:11

is being rewarded. And

49:13

for the narcissistic person, hurting the people doesn't

49:15

even bother them. So they're

49:17

ultra-incentivized, right? And so, yes, we have

49:19

incentivized it. That's why this continues to

49:21

become a burgeoning problem because people, listen,

49:24

I mean, it's an easy ride if

49:26

you marry a person with a ton

49:28

of money and then it's an easy

49:30

life, so you think, but then if

49:33

it's cruel and manipulative and loveless, there

49:35

was blood money involved in that. You

49:38

might end up in the White House and say, how did I

49:40

get here? Right, exactly. Or in

49:42

the C-suite or in the Oscar ceremony or whatever. And

49:46

so we have incentivized this. And

49:48

what that means then is that the rest of us

49:50

need to be savvy, know that we're not going to

49:53

be the exception to the rule and not always go

49:55

for the big shiny thing because

49:57

the stuff that sustains long-term relationships.

50:00

our respect, empathy,

50:02

compassion, patience, reciprocity,

50:05

mutuality of regard, and above

50:07

all else, psychological safety. Who's

50:10

taught to look for that? What does

50:12

he do? What does he drive? Where does

50:14

he live? That's what people get asked. How

50:16

often does a new meet someone new? Does

50:18

somebody say, well, are they patient? Are they

50:20

kind? You don't ask that question. I

50:23

feel like there's an aspect to the culture

50:25

of online dating, which in

50:27

many ways, in my

50:29

amateur opinion, seems to

50:31

lend itself to a proliferation

50:35

of this kind of interaction. Meaning

50:38

the whole basis of

50:41

kind of swiping, and that sort

50:43

of initial thing is a very surface thing.

50:45

And people who are narcissists are gonna look

50:47

good on a dating app. Am I right?

50:49

Oh, beyond good. They

50:52

know, I've never online dated them too old. I've

50:54

missed that whole thing. But apparently,

50:56

there's a whole grid of images,

50:58

right? Of the person on their dating profile.

51:01

It's as though there must be the

51:03

narcissist guy to creating the grid of

51:05

pictures. They've got the picture with the

51:07

abs, holding a puppy, sometimes a cat.

51:09

There's a waterfall, there's a sunset, there's

51:11

the Eiffel Tower, the Great Wall. It

51:13

looks great. It always looks great. They've

51:16

got the night out with just that

51:18

sort of Miami tan, the drinks. I

51:20

mean, it's like they all use the

51:22

same playbook. Online

51:25

dating is the mothership for narcissistic people

51:27

because they can use it so skillfully,

51:29

right? They know. Tell me how. Because

51:31

they can portray themselves in this fabulous

51:33

way. They're very good at reading the

51:35

data on another person and responding in

51:37

kind. They can keep 20 lines in

51:39

the water because they have such a

51:41

shallow empathy, right? So for someone else

51:43

who feels like, oh, I feel guilty,

51:45

like I'm having this meaningful conversation with

51:47

person A, I shouldn't be saying these

51:49

things to person B. The Narcissists, this

51:51

is a numbers game. They got 20

51:54

of these things running. And look at all the validation

51:56

they're getting. 20 times the validation,

51:58

are you kidding me? And they love

52:00

it. And sex, so they're using it

52:03

for sex. They're telling whatever story they

52:05

need to get sex. I mean, it

52:07

is, it is a, they are using

52:09

it as a validation seeking app and

52:11

not really for relationships. And so I

52:13

think it's a really fraught space for

52:16

people who feel that they

52:18

don't understand this narcissism thing. I'd be like, bye

52:21

or beware. New idea, dating

52:24

advice for people online dating to

52:26

be authentic. Pictures of you crying.

52:29

Pictures of your laundry. Pictures

52:32

of you with the pencil sticking out of

52:34

your head as you're writing. Pictures

52:36

of your crappy car that you actually own.

52:38

Pictures of your supplements and prescriptions that you

52:41

have to pay. Pictures of you

52:43

sitting in the middle seat in coach. Yeah,

52:46

how about that? I date you.

52:48

I love it. That's hilarious. I'm

52:52

gonna say something kind of controversial. There's

52:55

something about the deprivation

52:57

that you talk about that many

52:59

narcissists kind of thrive on. This

53:01

breadcrumbs kind of notion. And

53:04

I've long felt and

53:06

we're the same age-ish. I've

53:09

long felt that the

53:13

combination of online dating and

53:16

also this wave

53:18

of, I'd say third and fourth wave feminism have

53:21

sort of combined in a way that

53:24

I think in some ways

53:26

can encourage accepting

53:28

breadcrumbs. Yes, 100%. I'm

53:31

not wrong and crazy. You're not wrong and crazy at

53:33

all. No, but you know what I mean? Explain it

53:35

better than I am. Explain it

53:37

better than I am. It's the

53:39

whole cool girl ideology. I love this woman.

53:41

I love this woman. I don't need anything.

53:44

I'm cool. I'm easy breezy. He can have

53:46

sex with 86 people. Yeah, I'm cool. I'm

53:49

my own woman. Like I don't care.

53:53

Not caring is not a source of

53:55

power. Care, own your emotions, own your

53:57

needs. If you want monogamy, hold on.

54:00

Hold out for it. If you want

54:02

somebody who stays in touch with you,

54:04

ask for it. If you

54:06

want someone that makes you feel whole and

54:09

not crazy. That's always a, yeah, there's something

54:11

to hold out for. But I do think

54:13

that the whole cool girl phenomenon, and

54:15

it is something that, I mean, listen, that

54:17

talk about a trap being set, playing on

54:20

feminist ideology. It's like it was designed by

54:22

narcissists. It was designed by narcissists. It's like

54:24

we're in the matrix of the narcissist and

54:26

we didn't realize it. That's right, no, no,

54:28

no. Basically,

54:30

the cool girl is a girl with

54:32

no needs, no wants. No

54:34

boundaries. Who is amenable,

54:36

who kind of goes with the flow, who

54:39

makes no demands. That's easy breezy cool girl.

54:42

That is not healthy. That is a,

54:44

in essence, it is a throwback to

54:47

prior to feminism. It's a throwback

54:49

to just becoming what the other

54:51

person wants. No, I'm my own

54:53

person. I'm still going away with

54:55

my girlfriends. Okay, so

54:57

where are you filing all that disappointment stuff

54:59

when you're that whole weekend with the girlfriends,

55:02

you're staring at your phone wondering why he

55:04

didn't text, but I'm not gonna respond because

55:06

I'm easy breezy. But in fact, what you're

55:08

doing is you're subjugating your needs to this

55:10

easy breezy identity. And so I

55:12

think that there's a real power in being

55:15

clear with yourself about what matters to you

55:17

in a relationship and understanding the origin story

55:19

of those needs. That's the work, folks. And

55:21

this whole cool girl, easy breezy, we gotta

55:24

put her to bed. That's

55:26

fricking brilliant. I'm sorry, that's brilliant.

55:29

And you said it much better than I would have. Are

55:32

there cool girls who, that's

55:35

an authentic expression of who they

55:37

are, or is it fundamentally that

55:40

majority of people are suppressing needs and cannot operate

55:42

in that model? I think a lot of people

55:44

are suppressing needs. Are there some cool girls out

55:47

there? I think there's people out there who

55:49

feel very fulfilled by other things going on in

55:51

their lives. They're fulfilled in their careers, other

55:54

meaningful and purposeful activities. They're

55:56

like, listen, I have a

55:58

friend, I have sex. with and

56:00

I'm very comfortable. However, that sex

56:03

person is respectful and nice. Like

56:05

they both agree. Maybe sex person

56:07

and that woman say like, there's

56:10

a major, sex person, but the

56:16

lover, but the

56:19

other person is nice. They're not playing games.

56:21

It's like, Hey, I'm going, you know, I'm

56:23

traveling for three weeks for work. I can't

56:25

wait to connect with you when I get

56:28

back and there's a meaningful connection and they

56:30

talk things through that to me is the

56:32

cool girl model working, but the cool girl

56:34

model being a throwback. What is it? 1989

56:37

when the book, the rules came out

56:39

of subjugating your needs to like, Oh,

56:41

if I, if I expect this person

56:43

to, I'm going to wait four days.

56:45

I'm not expecting them to get back

56:47

in touch with me. It's actually manualized

56:49

need subjugation. That's the problem. So I

56:51

think it can be authentic, but it

56:54

does require that other person they're interacting

56:56

with being a decent human being. That's

56:58

a great clarification. That's a great, it's

57:00

a really important clarification. The difference between

57:03

communication, respect, clear boundaries,

57:07

an ethical understanding of

57:09

what each person needs versus a lack

57:12

of clarity, shadiness, lack

57:14

of expectations. Am I waiting for someone to

57:17

call? What are they doing when they're not

57:19

with me and having no idea? Um, I

57:22

want to take it to the brain level just because I like to.

57:25

So in answer to Jonathan's

57:27

question, the first thing I thought of

57:29

was what feels safe. And

57:32

this is a huge conversation when not just

57:34

talking about women, not just talking about feminism,

57:36

not just talking about the patriarchy and not

57:38

just talking about online dating. This

57:41

is a question of in our culture and

57:43

it applies to men, women, non-binary people, what

57:45

feels safe to your nervous system? Correct. And

57:48

by and large, we

57:51

are just primates. We're primates

57:53

that have desks and glasses

57:55

and computers and makeup and

57:57

deodorant, but we are primates.

58:00

And while not everyone chooses

58:02

to have monogamous relationships or

58:04

have children, we're still all

58:06

in a state of nature,

58:08

really, trying to figure out

58:10

which connections feel safe for our

58:13

limbic system. When am

58:15

I going to feel that consistency

58:17

is happening? And

58:20

does that foster a desire for

58:22

me to increase intimacy with this

58:24

person? So what I think you're

58:26

speaking to and what I for

58:28

sure am speaking to is

58:30

the notion of teaching ourselves to have

58:32

less needs and

58:35

not requiring confirmation

58:37

of safety. That

58:39

never will feel okay to our brain in

58:41

the same way that being hit by a

58:44

parent, because they don't

58:46

like something that you're feeling,

58:48

will never feel right. Correct,

58:50

but the challenge here is

58:52

society is telling us, silencing

58:54

those needs makes us better.

58:58

Oh, look, she's a saint, she

59:00

asks for nothing. So

59:02

we're getting this hollow validation from

59:04

the world. Our nervous system's like,

59:06

this doesn't feel good, but the

59:09

world is telling me it

59:11

is. Those disconnects are often

59:13

what also confuse people. We

59:15

don't talk about safety and

59:17

safety's everything. And by definition,

59:19

narcissistic relationships are unsafe relationships

59:22

because they're asymmetric relationships. Talk

59:24

about the asymmetry. There's a power differential

59:27

because the narcissistic person can't be in

59:29

a relationship unless there is one. And

59:31

don't assume that power difference means because

59:33

somebody has more money or they're the

59:35

physically stronger partner or something like

59:37

that. Sometimes that power can come

59:39

through manipulation and other things. So

59:42

it's the partner who's not comfortable with

59:44

there being equity and balance in a

59:46

relationship. It's the partner who has to

59:48

have the upper hand. A lot of

59:50

that gets created through gaslighting, through that

59:52

destabilization. And so that's why gaslighting is

59:54

such a prevalent dynamic because it's a

59:56

way to hold power. If somebody's always

59:58

off balance. they're going to have

1:00:01

less power. Because you're sort of in survival mode,

1:00:03

trying to make sense of what's going on around

1:00:05

you. The gas lighter gets to maintain their power.

1:00:07

And so that's not a safe relationship. So

1:00:10

I'd like you to define gas lighting. This is

1:00:12

one of these, you know, I have, you

1:00:15

know, if you've heard any episodes of

1:00:18

what we do here, I almost always point

1:00:20

out a term that people are using incorrectly

1:00:22

or they're overusing it, or that's actually not

1:00:24

OCD. Like I'm just that sort of person.

1:00:27

But this is one of those, you know,

1:00:29

gas lighting is kind of up there with

1:00:31

like triggering and you know, it's toxic. So

1:00:35

my favorite definition of gas lighting is a

1:00:37

joke. Jonathan, tell me that I'm gas lighting

1:00:39

you. Say like you're gas lighting me. You're

1:00:42

gas lighting me. Do you even know what

1:00:44

gas lighting is? That's my

1:00:46

favorite gas lighting joke, right? Here's another one.

1:00:49

Have you heard the joke about gas lighting? No.

1:00:53

Yes, you have. She

1:00:55

liked your joke better than mine. Define

1:00:58

gas lighting for us. So gas

1:01:00

lighting is a relational tactic,

1:01:06

communication tactic maybe,

1:01:10

in which one

1:01:12

person destabilizes

1:01:14

the other person. So initially

1:01:16

it is a relate, there's those pieces to

1:01:19

it. A gas lighting relationship, number one,

1:01:22

is predicated on some level of trust

1:01:24

or familiarity or expertise. That's why a

1:01:27

doctor could gas light us, a lawyer could gas light

1:01:29

us, and certainly a family member could gas light us

1:01:31

or a partner can gas light us. But a stranger,

1:01:34

not as much, because we don't, we may not, literally

1:01:37

out of nowhere we may not have

1:01:39

that, that there's a trust, right? There's

1:01:41

like what? There's not an investment. There's

1:01:43

not an investment. The second piece is

1:01:46

that then there's a denial of perception,

1:01:48

memory, experience, or reality. I never said

1:01:50

that. That never happened. That's not a

1:01:52

thing. You're not remembering that right. You

1:01:55

can't be feeling that way, that sort of

1:01:57

thing. And normally you'd say like. That's

1:02:00

not true. I felt that. But what

1:02:02

happens in gaslighting? So this next step

1:02:04

is what makes a gaslighting. That's backed

1:02:06

up with there's something wrong with you.

1:02:08

That's the dismantling piece. You're

1:02:10

mentally ill. You're way too sensitive. This

1:02:12

is not a normal reaction to this.

1:02:15

What's wrong with you? You need to see

1:02:17

a doctor. So now

1:02:19

what they've done is it's not just enough that

1:02:21

you have a... That never happened.

1:02:23

Because that never happened. It could be a lie,

1:02:26

right? And gaslighting is not lying. And you can

1:02:28

have proof of that, right? Yes, it did. Correct.

1:02:30

Here's the text. And when you're dealing with just

1:02:32

a liar, the text is enough

1:02:34

to sort of bring the lie to an

1:02:36

end. The liar might get angry. The liar

1:02:38

might push back. But ultimately, the liar is

1:02:40

going to be caught in the lie and

1:02:43

say, okay, you got me. What next? Versus

1:02:45

the gaslighter. Well, then even if you

1:02:47

show them proof of the lie, as it were, they'll

1:02:49

say, oh, my goodness, look at us.

1:02:52

I am in a relationship with

1:02:54

a CIA monitor. Oh, my God,

1:02:56

that's so mean. How

1:02:59

fun for me to be stuck with a paranoid lunatic for

1:03:01

the rest of my life. Or what are you

1:03:03

keeping tabs on me? What are you keeping tabs

1:03:05

on me for? What's secret? So

1:03:07

now you're on the defensive.

1:03:10

Yeah, I am. And no longer

1:03:12

is this a conversation about that

1:03:15

lapsed memory. Now it's you

1:03:17

defending your mental status. The entire

1:03:19

conversation has shifted to your destabilization.

1:03:22

This relates strongly to a phenomenon

1:03:24

that Dr. Jennifer Fried calls DARVO.

1:03:27

And DARVO stands for

1:03:29

deny, attack, reverse victim

1:03:31

and offender. Say it

1:03:33

again. DARVO, deny, attack,

1:03:35

reverse victim and offender.

1:03:38

So they'll say, I never said that. I never

1:03:40

said that. But stop keeping tabs on me. And

1:03:42

you know what? I can't believe I have to

1:03:45

put up with this. I do

1:03:47

so much for this family. And all I do

1:03:49

is put up with your BS, reversal of victim

1:03:51

and offender. So the DARVO

1:03:53

to me is like the clothes on the gas

1:03:55

light. And the thing is, gas light doesn't happen one

1:03:57

time. It happens all the time. And

1:04:00

it's cumulative also. And it's cumulative. Because

1:04:02

the more you're destabilized, the less you

1:04:04

feel stable. Correct. So people

1:04:06

then over time, they go along

1:04:09

to get along, they stop talking,

1:04:11

they stop pointing things out, they

1:04:13

wonder if they're the problem. And

1:04:16

then you can imagine how that results in

1:04:18

lifetime silencing after that. I mean, it's so

1:04:20

painful. It's terrible. If I were to say

1:04:22

to you, I'm entering

1:04:24

the dating world and

1:04:27

I'm going to be putting myself out

1:04:29

there, how can I be gaslight

1:04:31

proof? How can

1:04:34

I be narcissist, toxic relationship

1:04:36

proof? What are the things that

1:04:38

I... Give me five things

1:04:41

that will set me apart from the

1:04:43

people who fall into those traps. If

1:04:46

somebody is denying experience, perception, reality, you

1:04:48

don't have to push back. You can

1:04:50

say, I think we're having

1:04:52

different experiences and hold that line.

1:04:57

And that's hard to do because as

1:04:59

you're getting to... In essence, we're asking

1:05:01

people to literally reprogram their entire nervous

1:05:03

system over Chardonnay. That's not easy

1:05:05

to do because you're saying, if

1:05:08

somebody says, well, I never said we were going

1:05:10

to do the session session, say, I actually do

1:05:12

remember that happening, but I think we're having a

1:05:14

different experience. If you do that

1:05:16

early enough in a relationship, the narcissist or the

1:05:19

gas lighter is going to walk. Okay?

1:05:22

That's one thing. Because they can't engage. Because they

1:05:24

see that there's no point of entry, right? Number

1:05:28

two, you need supports. You

1:05:31

need gas light free zones. Those

1:05:33

might be therapy, it might be friends,

1:05:35

but it's places to say, do you

1:05:38

guys think... I keep getting this

1:05:40

accusation that I'm too sensitive and this

1:05:42

honest group saying sensitive. If

1:05:44

anything, you're almost made of your anodyne.

1:05:47

You're too strong. Where are

1:05:49

you hearing this from? So you have these places where you

1:05:51

get to be you and you

1:05:53

don't get shut down. The

1:05:56

other is listen to your body. We're just

1:05:59

talking about psychological. We

1:06:01

are not good at paying attention to when

1:06:03

we feel safe. Like we'd be better at

1:06:05

it if we were walking down a street

1:06:07

late at night and we heard footsteps, right?

1:06:09

We're more wired for that. But that sense

1:06:11

of sort of zoning in on ourselves and

1:06:14

paying attention to those somatic cues of like

1:06:16

something's not right here. Let yourself step out

1:06:18

of it for a minute. Sometimes even just

1:06:20

getting outside, having a sky over your head

1:06:22

instead of a room, going to the restroom,

1:06:24

like getting out of the situation in recognition

1:06:28

of like this doesn't feel right. Something's

1:06:30

not right here. But even as I

1:06:33

give this guidance, Ma'am, I'm going to

1:06:35

tell you people who have histories of

1:06:37

being raised by narcissistic parents, histories of

1:06:40

trauma, places where self-doubt has really gotten

1:06:42

concrete and cemented. These

1:06:44

are really difficult maneuvers. That's why I'm

1:06:46

saying at a minimum, having the gaslight-free

1:06:48

zones. The other thing I tell people

1:06:50

is just like I tell people you

1:06:52

got to do dating homework. And what's

1:06:54

dating homework? What's dating homework? Dating homework

1:06:56

is when you go home and you

1:07:00

do homework after the date. This is again, people say, what if

1:07:02

I drink too much on a date? Well, here's a good reason

1:07:04

to not drink too much on a date to go home

1:07:06

and write down. How

1:07:09

did it feel? What was it like?

1:07:11

What did we do? Why? Not a

1:07:13

Dear Diary thing. You

1:07:16

really go in strong. I was

1:07:18

a little bit weird how they

1:07:20

were with the waitress. And so

1:07:22

get in there because the more

1:07:24

of this you write down, we

1:07:26

tend to forget. There's this again,

1:07:28

Dr. Jennifer Fried, she talks about

1:07:30

betrayal blindness. This idea that we

1:07:32

kind of put away the

1:07:35

inconvenient pieces of information that keep us from

1:07:37

being able to maintain a connection to someone

1:07:39

that we want to have work out. Put

1:07:42

that icky stuff down, knowing it's just for you.

1:07:45

But then you have something to look at and

1:07:47

say, okay, dates one, two, and three, there was

1:07:49

this funky stuff with bartenders and waiters and sort

1:07:51

of inappropriate thing. Like you might give yourself permission,

1:07:53

but the more we write things down, it gets

1:07:55

out of here and at least

1:07:58

puts it out there so we can look at it. Most

1:08:00

people don't want to do dating homework. It's not

1:08:02

really nice. Yeah, I want to sort of highlight

1:08:04

what you just said, because

1:08:08

you've given us a scenario where

1:08:10

narcissists are going to look really good. They're

1:08:13

oftentimes going to be successful. They're

1:08:16

likely going to take pretty good care of themselves and the things

1:08:18

about them, meaning they likely

1:08:20

would have a nice car, a

1:08:22

flashy jewelry, or, you know, be

1:08:24

really well put together, picturing that

1:08:27

they smell good. You

1:08:29

know, they're wearing an expensive cologne. Like, this is just the

1:08:31

picture that my brain is painting. So

1:08:34

if you're putting me in a situation where I'm on a date

1:08:37

with this person, and you've already told

1:08:40

me that this person also is skilled

1:08:42

at charisma, right? Making

1:08:44

people like them. They

1:08:47

can be manipulative, which means you might get a

1:08:49

really good table, right? You might get to the

1:08:51

front of the line. I

1:08:54

don't mean to be a downer, but

1:08:56

how am I supposed to date in

1:08:58

a world where all

1:09:00

of those qualities previously I've

1:09:03

been taught are attractive? Well,

1:09:06

because a couple of things. Now you know,

1:09:09

let's say someone's dated multiple narcissists. All those

1:09:11

attractive qualities also then got... Because I'm forever

1:09:13

forgiving a rescuer and I'm empathetic. Right, but

1:09:16

there's also a conditioning of all those fabulous

1:09:18

things with an icky ending, and that conditioning

1:09:20

remains. So there's some learning that happens over

1:09:23

time. We're

1:09:25

not taught this, right? We're not taught

1:09:27

this. And so the

1:09:30

whole idea, the whole cell is the charming, charismatic,

1:09:32

attractive person. This is who you want to bring

1:09:34

home. This is who you want to share with

1:09:36

your friends. This is who you want to bring

1:09:38

out into the world. We want to be the

1:09:40

perfect picture in the Bride magazine or something like

1:09:42

that. There's still that fantasy kind of that archetype

1:09:45

that's put out there. But

1:09:47

I do think that over time it is

1:09:49

cumulative, and you do

1:09:51

sort of feel the hustle while it's happening,

1:09:53

because you feel it in your body. It's

1:09:55

one too many compliments. You're like, okay, what?

1:09:57

I had a conversation like this the other

1:09:59

day where... The person was trying to get

1:10:01

me to do something I couldn't do on

1:10:03

the schedule they wanted. So they kept saying,

1:10:05

we know what a busy person you are.

1:10:07

You are such a busy person. My goodness.

1:10:09

I was like, okay. And it really turned

1:10:11

me off because I felt

1:10:13

like I was being played. I

1:10:15

felt like I was being played. And it's paying

1:10:17

attention to that. And I did. I

1:10:20

felt it viscerally. And I could feel

1:10:22

myself shutting down. Pay attention to your

1:10:24

shutdown at times in a conversation. Those

1:10:26

many dissociations are also your body and

1:10:28

your mind talking to you. That's your

1:10:30

autonomic nervous system being like, this feels

1:10:32

on a brain nervous system level, not

1:10:35

safe. I

1:10:37

wonder if you can touch a little bit

1:10:39

on the dynamics of a relationship with a

1:10:41

narcissist. You

1:10:43

talk about trauma bonding. This is another one

1:10:46

of those terms that the

1:10:48

sort of like classical, like clinical description

1:10:50

is sometimes if people actually experience, let's

1:10:52

say a car accident together, they can

1:10:54

have a trauma that has bonded them.

1:10:56

That's not what you're talking about. Talk

1:10:59

a little bit about what trauma bonding

1:11:01

is. So trauma bonding is a perception

1:11:03

of an intense connection that's created by

1:11:05

an alternation of good and bad in

1:11:08

a relationship. So where it's

1:11:10

most profoundly experienced is the child who

1:11:12

has this idealized conception of the parent

1:11:14

and even idealized moments that night that

1:11:16

the parent might be, everyone gets dressed

1:11:18

up and they dance in the living

1:11:20

room and that happens. And then it's

1:11:22

like 90 days of all the horror

1:11:24

and the meanness and the cruelty and

1:11:26

the mockery and all that. And then

1:11:28

another one of those days comes along. The

1:11:30

child has no choice but

1:11:32

to attach to a parent. That's a

1:11:34

survival need. And so as a result,

1:11:37

the child really, really gets good at

1:11:39

justifying, creating narratives where in fact they're

1:11:41

even the bad ones, subjugating their needs,

1:11:43

doing whatever they need to do to

1:11:45

remain not only attached to this parent,

1:11:48

but keep this parent in a relatively

1:11:50

idealized way. The meaner

1:11:52

the parent, the more idealized they're going to

1:11:54

become, right? Because with a healthy parent, the

1:11:56

child is allowed to create a rather... comprehensive,

1:12:00

like a whole black and white altogether conception

1:12:02

of the parent. Like, well, sometimes mom's tired

1:12:04

when she comes home from work, but like

1:12:07

they feel safe. The inconsistencies

1:12:09

don't leave the child feeling unsafe, but

1:12:11

the connection the child has to make

1:12:13

to that chaotic parent, to that, that

1:12:16

at times available, at times not subjugating

1:12:18

parent, it's called the trauma bond. Now in

1:12:21

adulthood that repeats again. It's that relationship where

1:12:23

there are those good days and especially when

1:12:25

it started strong, four weeks,

1:12:27

six weeks, six months of really

1:12:30

sort of exciting and fun and new

1:12:32

and novelty and dopamine and this feels

1:12:34

great. Then it

1:12:36

sort of starts slipping off, but it doesn't go

1:12:38

off a cliff. It's a very gradual rolling down

1:12:41

a hill. I always say it goes from, you

1:12:43

know, you go from like 99% good, 1% bad,

1:12:45

becomes 90% good, 10%

1:12:49

bad. And as you segue down to 50, 50,

1:12:52

that's where the trauma bond kicks

1:12:54

in because now you're doing the

1:12:56

heavy lifting of justifying, rationalizing, becoming

1:12:58

a one-stop shop, saying like, by

1:13:01

the time it's done, you're the

1:13:03

person's life coach, house cleaner, sex

1:13:05

partner, driver. You

1:13:07

take care of everything because if you can

1:13:10

be all things to this person, you maintain

1:13:12

the fantasy of keeping them back on that

1:13:14

idealized perch because it's again, the trauma bonded

1:13:16

relationships are very black and white. And

1:13:19

so that, and they get, people will say,

1:13:21

I feel stuck. Like I even intellectually know this

1:13:24

is not a healthy relationship, but the idea

1:13:26

of leaving it is filling me with a

1:13:28

sense of panic. And so people

1:13:30

stay so they can avoid leaving and

1:13:32

feeling panic. So it's a, it's almost

1:13:34

a physiological stuckness. I'm

1:13:36

just struck by how

1:13:39

much our early

1:13:41

years are programming us to

1:13:44

either think something is

1:13:46

normal or feel that it is familiar

1:13:48

to us and for us to want

1:13:50

to pursue that. And you

1:13:52

know, Maim and I have talked on the show. It's like,

1:13:54

well, why think about your childhood? Why

1:13:56

go backwards and think about the past and

1:13:58

think about the early. the imprints. And

1:14:01

this is such a great example. I think

1:14:04

a lot of people still struggle to understand

1:14:06

when we talk about our nervous system is programmed

1:14:08

to do X or our nervous system

1:14:13

expects something. I think that's

1:14:15

still very vague. Can

1:14:17

you maybe summarize a little bit

1:14:19

about how we're

1:14:21

kind of all walking around with this

1:14:23

programming looking for what feels familiar to

1:14:25

us, which may not

1:14:27

be helpful? I

1:14:30

think familiar is safe. And we go back

1:14:32

to my name's original point of we're actually

1:14:34

programmed for safety, right? We are mammalian species

1:14:38

that wants to be safe so we can

1:14:40

stay alive long enough to reproduce and

1:14:42

live our lives and do our thing, right?

1:14:44

Obviously we've evolved past that. It's not that

1:14:46

simple, but it is that simple. We want

1:14:49

safety. We kind

1:14:51

of have the obvious safety stuff

1:14:53

like, you know, saber-toothed tigers and,

1:14:55

you know, starling dogs and footsteps

1:14:58

in the night figured out. The psychological safety

1:15:00

part though, that's a lot, that feels a

1:15:02

lot more, if you will, subtle. And even

1:15:04

when we look at trauma, when we look

1:15:07

at big T trauma, someone being assaulted or

1:15:09

kidnapped or being in a

1:15:11

burning home or something like that, again, that

1:15:13

clearly we can see sort of physically that

1:15:15

as a trauma. But as we look at

1:15:17

betrayal trauma, for example, a child feeling they

1:15:19

can't trust a parent, it feels more subtle,

1:15:21

but the brain actually holds it with the

1:15:23

same kind of potency. And so

1:15:26

we're forever on a safety quest. And if we want

1:15:28

to put it in very simple terms, I don't know

1:15:30

if you've ever been at a point when your life

1:15:32

where you were in survival mode, you didn't have enough

1:15:34

money to pay the rent or you were just sort

1:15:36

of traveling and everything went upside down and you just

1:15:38

couldn't, you know, it was like you were having to

1:15:40

stay in hotels or sleeping in airports. Were

1:15:42

you in your best? I mean, were you

1:15:44

thinking ahead? Were you planning ahead? Were you?

1:15:46

No, you're we're messy when we survive. And

1:15:48

so when people are trying to create psychological

1:15:50

safety, what they're not trying to do, they're

1:15:53

not able to do, I should say, is

1:15:55

working on their identity and this bigger, deeper

1:15:57

work of authenticity, because you're just trying to

1:15:59

stay alive. And so we

1:16:01

have all of that in common, every

1:16:03

human being, even the narcissistic people, in

1:16:05

fact, they're probably seeking safety more than

1:16:07

anybody else. That's why we see all

1:16:09

these grandiose defenses like the entitlement and

1:16:11

the validation seeking. They feel so psychologically

1:16:14

unsafe, they've turned into big bullies, and

1:16:17

they feel safe when they're big and they

1:16:19

overwhelm everyone around them. So we're all kind

1:16:21

of on the same grail quest, but

1:16:24

I think we forget in all of this

1:16:26

what we really mean by psychological safety and

1:16:28

how to create that for ourselves, and

1:16:31

nor do we pay attention to it when we've

1:16:33

got it. So when we're around the people, we

1:16:35

feel safe with. Tune into your

1:16:38

body and pay attention to how that feels

1:16:40

too. What that parasympathetic

1:16:42

state feels like, that state of full

1:16:44

relaxation when you're in the presence of

1:16:46

goodness and safety. Many

1:16:49

people don't always get it, but I think most of us

1:16:51

have at least one place where we feel that. And

1:16:54

we need that, but

1:16:57

we often don't get that. So I think

1:16:59

everyone's on the same quest. We just do

1:17:01

it in different ways. To

1:17:03

get through to a narcissist, it would be, do you

1:17:05

understand you're trying to feel safe, but it's very hard

1:17:08

for a therapist to do that because they hate the

1:17:10

vulnerability that comes from the idea that they were unsafe.

1:17:12

So they'll often lash out at the therapist and drop

1:17:14

out of therapy. Oh, that's my favorite trick that narcissists

1:17:16

do. I think there's also a distinction

1:17:19

to be made when we talk about the nervous system and

1:17:21

safety. When we talk about

1:17:23

familiarity feeling safe, that's

1:17:25

not the same thing as is this safe

1:17:27

for my nervous system to be in a

1:17:29

relationship that's abusive. So these are two different

1:17:31

kinds of safety. Yeah, so familiarity, I mean,

1:17:33

you know, we hear people talk about chemistry,

1:17:36

this relationship has chemistry. Chemistry is familiarity.

1:17:38

So when people tell me we have

1:17:40

lots of chemistry, I'm like, oh no, no,

1:17:43

no, no, chemistry is never good. That's

1:17:45

usually what people hold out for. They'll

1:17:47

go on a date with someone. It's

1:17:49

like, there was no, he's really nice.

1:17:52

He's this, that, he looks great on

1:17:54

paper, but there's no chemistry. And I'll

1:17:56

say, I love no chemistry because chemistry

1:17:58

usually is this, again, this familiarity. And

1:18:00

so familiarity, it's again,

1:18:02

to my aim's point, it's we're

1:18:05

not, if we come from a

1:18:07

psychologically unsafe family of origin or

1:18:09

other places like that in our

1:18:11

lives, we don't even know from

1:18:13

safety. So then that which is

1:18:15

familiar feels easy. I wouldn't

1:18:17

even say the word safe as

1:18:19

much as it's soothing. It's

1:18:22

the reason we get

1:18:24

stuck living in the same place because we like not even

1:18:26

having to think about the two rights and the left we have

1:18:28

to make to go to the grocery store. Having

1:18:30

to learn new things all the time, it's a

1:18:32

little bit of a challenge. And so it

1:18:35

takes us back to what we know

1:18:37

and our identity is very much related

1:18:39

to this idea of I'm not enough.

1:18:41

So someone comes along and treats us

1:18:43

as though we're not enough. We're like,

1:18:45

okay, well that tracks. And so here

1:18:47

we go. So breaking out of the

1:18:49

familiar is very, very hard to do.

1:18:53

People are really, really interested in

1:18:55

narcissism right now. This

1:18:58

is not the first book or the first kind

1:19:00

of set of research that you've

1:19:02

done on this. Why do you

1:19:05

think people are so interested in this? I

1:19:07

think there's a lot of reasons. I think first of all,

1:19:09

look at podcast genres and look at television. There

1:19:17

are no Netflix series on

1:19:19

the nice person next door or

1:19:21

the friendly person at the grocery store. It's

1:19:24

the serial killer next door. My

1:19:26

husband was a scammer. That's

1:19:28

what people wanna watch. We want

1:19:31

to understand the thing that scares us and

1:19:33

people who do scary things, if we can

1:19:35

understand them, maybe we think that they're less

1:19:37

scary. And while

1:19:39

narcissistic people don't track necessarily as

1:19:41

scary, they're often very successful.

1:19:43

They get away with stuff. I don't know if you

1:19:45

remember being a little kid, maybe

1:19:48

four or five, six years old and watching a

1:19:50

kid having a tantrum like in a restaurant

1:19:52

or a public place and

1:19:54

watching, wondering like, how far is this gonna

1:19:57

go? What is this kid gonna get away

1:19:59

with? definitely the over controlled little

1:20:01

kid. I'm like, they're going to be able to

1:20:03

pull this off. We're fascinated with the person who

1:20:05

gets away with it. Right? And

1:20:07

so when you throw in all that other stuff, how

1:20:09

compelling they are, I think that's one piece of it.

1:20:11

I think the second piece of it is a lot

1:20:13

of people have sort of been bumping around in the

1:20:15

dark wondering, what, why

1:20:17

do I feel this way? Why do I keep

1:20:20

getting in my own way? Why do I keep

1:20:22

self sabotaging? Why do I feel like I'm not

1:20:24

enough? And that's why I don't

1:20:26

even like the term self sabotage. I'm like, you're

1:20:28

being perfectly finely sabotaged. And

1:20:31

then your self sabotage is merely a

1:20:33

mirroring of that process. It's very hard

1:20:35

to be in a series of narcissistic

1:20:37

relationships or have more like have a

1:20:39

parental one and a partner, maybe a

1:20:41

boss or something like that. And

1:20:43

then exert the sense of I am more than

1:20:45

enough. You just don't do that. So I

1:20:47

think that this became a new paradigm for

1:20:51

how to see this. I do have

1:20:54

to say world politics changed a lot in

1:20:56

the 2010s. I

1:20:58

think narcissistic world leaders have always been a

1:21:00

thing. But when we look at it

1:21:02

as a collective, it wasn't just one country, it's multiple

1:21:05

countries that have had and

1:21:07

continue to have these very

1:21:10

overtly in your face narcissistic

1:21:12

leaders. And I think it was,

1:21:15

we once did have, there was a time of, I

1:21:17

mean, because women didn't get to get in

1:21:19

politics, statesmen. We did have, that has

1:21:21

gone away. It

1:21:24

is politics as entertainment. And

1:21:27

I think that has also caused a lot

1:21:29

of interest because these are stakeholders who,

1:21:32

first of all, the elections have become entertainment.

1:21:34

And then I think social media has added

1:21:36

to this. I don't

1:21:38

think social media has resulted in

1:21:41

there being more narcissistic

1:21:43

people in the world. I think they've

1:21:45

always been narcissistic people. I think it's

1:21:48

given them an amplifier. I think it's

1:21:50

given them a megaphone. I

1:21:52

think it's made the vulnerable narcissism

1:21:55

problem worse, the brooding, angry, sullen,

1:21:57

aggrieved, they're dangerous. This is a...

1:22:00

I actually don't think the grandiose narcissistic people

1:22:02

are dangerous. I do think and know that

1:22:04

the vulnerable narcissists are dangerous because they're powder

1:22:06

kegs. And social media has given

1:22:08

them a powder keggy place

1:22:11

to be. So I

1:22:13

think what social media has done too, if

1:22:15

we look at the influencer economy, it has

1:22:17

rewarded people for validation seeking and sometimes quite

1:22:19

handsomely. So we've also turned this into

1:22:22

an incentivized state. Can you

1:22:24

be a successful boss without some

1:22:26

aspect of narcissism? I

1:22:29

absolutely think you can. In a strange

1:22:31

way, I think it might even be

1:22:33

a little harder because to balance on

1:22:35

that razor's edge of empathy, compassion, but

1:22:38

also boundaries, solidity,

1:22:41

authority, it's harder

1:22:43

than just being ruling

1:22:45

by fear. Ruling by fear is a lot easier, right?

1:22:48

You just got to the chase. People

1:22:50

do things you want because I think obviously when you

1:22:52

have a boss who's

1:22:54

not narcissistic, there's a chance of people

1:22:56

taking advantage of them, especially if your

1:22:58

direct reports are narcissistic. Remember, it's not

1:23:01

just the boss who could be narcissistic,

1:23:03

it's the employees. And the employee will

1:23:05

absolutely take advantage, a narcissistic employee will

1:23:07

take advantage of a compassionate

1:23:09

boss. And so I

1:23:11

do think though a boss, a successful

1:23:13

boss can be not narcissistic.

1:23:15

And I've seen it happen many,

1:23:18

many times. It

1:23:21

gets trickier and trickier though, the more

1:23:23

narcissistic people there are in the employee

1:23:25

base. Sure, but also

1:23:27

when you think of,

1:23:31

I'm not naming names, but when you

1:23:33

think of Elon Musk, when you think

1:23:35

of these enormous companies that also have

1:23:38

changed the way we view reality,

1:23:40

they've changed the way we view

1:23:42

technology, they've transformed our culture. Those

1:23:47

kinds of movements do tend to

1:23:49

come with a very

1:23:51

particular personality that I'm not saying

1:23:53

but might be classified as on

1:23:55

the narcissistic spectrum. I don't think

1:23:57

we can have a huge... of

1:24:00

world-shaking innovation without narcissism. I'm going to be

1:24:02

frank with you. I don't think it's possible

1:24:05

because it is the

1:24:07

child who lies in bed and thinks, I'm

1:24:09

going to build a rocket launcher

1:24:11

out of my bedroom and a Barbie pool on

1:24:13

the roof. And they believe

1:24:15

it. And then when they're adults, they

1:24:17

do whatever the equivalent of that Barbie

1:24:19

Dreamhouse building it is because they believe

1:24:21

it. And that fantasticalness, if it is

1:24:24

combined with intellect and grit

1:24:26

and some shady stuff too. And charisma.

1:24:28

And charisma and all of that, that's

1:24:30

where we get computers. That's it in

1:24:32

our pockets. That's where we get, you

1:24:34

know, cars that are soon going to

1:24:37

be driving without people in them. That's

1:24:39

where we get things that as a

1:24:41

child, I mean, again, I'm of an

1:24:43

age where I'm like, this is what

1:24:45

I do in my day is unfathomable

1:24:47

to me. They were the tools I've

1:24:50

got. And that took people with very

1:24:52

specific personality. So perhaps the eradication of

1:24:54

narcissism isn't necessarily what's best for innovation.

1:24:56

And I'm not saying, I'm not calling

1:24:58

for it because I don't think it's

1:25:01

possible. Here's what I'm telling people. It

1:25:04

is about knowing what you're getting into. Great. I'm

1:25:06

glad we've got these folks. I'm glad. Okay. You

1:25:09

know what? I'm very grateful. I couldn't work

1:25:11

in that environment though. But it's beyond that. I'm

1:25:13

saying when you have these big, huge, larger

1:25:16

than life innovators, appreciate

1:25:18

it. Appreciate the genius, if you will.

1:25:20

Just don't marry them. Or

1:25:22

like I said, everybody's got a different level

1:25:24

of tolerance. I mean, I think, yes, everyone

1:25:27

has a different level of tolerance. Or

1:25:29

have realistic expectations. A person might say, you

1:25:31

know what? Because I have known people. It's

1:25:34

rare. These are unicorns. People will say, I

1:25:36

knew what I was getting into. But this

1:25:38

person had more money than God. And

1:25:40

my life is private jets and

1:25:43

Four Seasons hotels and beach houses.

1:25:45

And I get to kind of do

1:25:47

my own thing. And I've got people help me. And

1:25:50

I get to see my grandkids and it's

1:25:52

great. And is this

1:25:55

a big love story? Probably not. But damn,

1:25:57

my life is comfortable. And I am not

1:25:59

mad. messing that up. And so I just

1:26:01

ask. And that works till it doesn't. And

1:26:03

be discreet when you cheat. And

1:26:07

you know what? I will say that person

1:26:09

had it figured out because she said, I don't

1:26:11

have a broken heart. I knew exactly what I

1:26:13

was signing up for. And she said,

1:26:15

I know exactly when I'm being gaslighted and I

1:26:18

know exactly the performative dance I need to do.

1:26:20

But you have to have outside support. You have

1:26:22

to have interest. Well, this person had a lot

1:26:24

of support. Exactly. The

1:26:26

main pain point is

1:26:28

trying to get something from someone who

1:26:30

is not capable of giving it and

1:26:32

having your expectations constantly going back. You

1:26:35

know, Maim has the saying, you can't

1:26:37

get orange juice from the hardware store.

1:26:39

Mine was milk from a hardware store. Yeah, it's usually milk

1:26:41

from the hardware store. And you

1:26:44

can actually get milk at Hope Depot. That's true.

1:26:46

By the way. That's

1:26:48

true. They've changed. Well, now anything

1:26:50

is possible. But you use an important word there,

1:26:52

okay? Which is capability. It's

1:26:55

the capability. And I think that when

1:26:57

we can put it in terms of

1:26:59

capability, it feels less personal. They

1:27:01

really just don't have that capacity. It's

1:27:03

not in the capacity for a lot

1:27:05

of other stuff, you know, to draw

1:27:07

all the attention in the room towards

1:27:09

them to whatever it is they do

1:27:11

to manipulate. They do have those capacities.

1:27:13

They don't have this capacity. And

1:27:16

I think that we do. We are very

1:27:18

much in a world of, no, anything's possible.

1:27:20

Anything, no, this one ain't possible. I am

1:27:22

never going to play for the NBA. I

1:27:24

love basketball. I'd love to shoot a free

1:27:26

throw. I'm never going to. I never would

1:27:28

have, never could have. So

1:27:31

there are things we're not all capable

1:27:33

of everything. And there's a subset of

1:27:35

folks who are not capable of holding

1:27:38

up their half of a healthy relationship.

1:27:41

And so that's, and it's understanding that it's

1:27:43

a lack of capacity and you are not

1:27:45

going to be the person who pulls that

1:27:47

capacity out of them because they ain't got

1:27:49

it. The book

1:27:51

is It's Not You. Ramani Dravassala, did I

1:27:54

say your name correctly twice? Amazing. Thank

1:27:56

you so much. This is really incredible.

1:27:58

We're so honored. to get to talk to you.

1:28:00

Thank you. And thank you so

1:28:03

much for the work that you do. I

1:28:05

mean, you do incredible work, obviously, as a

1:28:07

clinician, but to share it with such a

1:28:09

broad audience in such an articulate way is

1:28:12

so incredibly helpful. And it's just been

1:28:14

really a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so

1:28:16

much for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank

1:28:18

you. Thank you. I

1:28:22

don't know if I should feel hopeless or

1:28:24

hopeful after taking in all

1:28:26

of this information from Dr. Girosola. Just

1:28:30

follow G.I. Joe's tagline, knowing is

1:28:32

half the battle. I

1:28:34

hope so. It's about what

1:28:37

we expect and what

1:28:39

we're seeking and knowing if the

1:28:41

people around us are capable of

1:28:43

providing it. We

1:28:45

also didn't get to mention, but I'll mention it

1:28:47

now. She has a

1:28:50

healing program called Taking Yourself Back,

1:28:52

healing from narcissistic and antagonistic relationships,

1:28:54

where every month she guides you

1:28:56

through like a topic that helps

1:28:58

you heal from a narcissistic interaction

1:29:01

or narcissistic abuse. If

1:29:04

you're a member, you get all of these lectures

1:29:06

with her and journal prompts, and it's really cool.

1:29:09

So people should absolutely check that out.

1:29:11

I think that what was

1:29:13

most alarming to me was

1:29:16

her notion

1:29:18

that if you are entering, in particular,

1:29:20

the dating pool, you're just

1:29:22

going to know that you're going to meet this.

1:29:24

And I was thinking like when she was talking

1:29:26

about homework after a date, I thought

1:29:28

that was really powerful. And

1:29:30

also, I've been on fun

1:29:32

first dates, where it would be nowhere in

1:29:35

my mind to try and analyze anything that

1:29:37

wouldn't be positive about that person. I

1:29:40

just wouldn't want to see it. And I

1:29:42

wonder if there's a way and maybe this

1:29:44

book, you know, can help people or maybe

1:29:46

her program can help people. Like, is there

1:29:48

a way to eliminate

1:29:51

getting so intoxicated with the fantasy and

1:29:53

the possibility which is going to be

1:29:56

especially strong with someone who's a narcissist

1:29:58

because of the charisma? because

1:30:00

of the manipulation, because of the flashiness and all

1:30:02

of that stuff, you know, is there a way

1:30:04

to be able to say, gosh,

1:30:07

when I go on a date with someone, I'm gonna

1:30:09

pay attention to how they treat the waitstaff. I'm

1:30:12

gonna pay attention to how they treat other

1:30:14

patrons. I'm gonna see if they,

1:30:16

you know, hold the door open

1:30:18

if they see that someone's walking out, male

1:30:20

or female. You know, are they aware of

1:30:23

their surroundings? Is

1:30:26

there substance to them that I'm interested

1:30:28

in? And look, I know a

1:30:30

lot of people would be like, I don't

1:30:33

care about that stuff. I just want someone

1:30:35

pretty and attractive and has money. Great, if

1:30:37

that works for you, that's fine. You know,

1:30:39

that's my radical acceptance of you, if you

1:30:41

choose that. But I think for people who

1:30:44

are wanting, you know, a gratifying relationship, it

1:30:46

sounds like if we listen to some of

1:30:48

these pointers that she's offering, it sounds like

1:30:50

you might be able to stop yourself from

1:30:53

entering into something that clearly is not gonna

1:30:55

feel safe. Maim, tell us a little

1:30:57

bit about the

1:30:59

relationship with a parent and

1:31:02

how that impacts a child if

1:31:05

the parent has narcissistic tendencies. Well,

1:31:08

you know, when you think about all the different types

1:31:10

of, you know, narcissists

1:31:12

that Dr. Dravasla explained

1:31:15

for us, you know, there's

1:31:18

gonna be different variations. And as she said,

1:31:20

there's kind of different flavors of this. So

1:31:23

if you have a grandiose, you know,

1:31:25

narcissistic parent, you know,

1:31:27

that's someone that's probably gonna promise the moon.

1:31:29

In many cases, they may actually be able to deliver

1:31:32

the moon. But in terms of,

1:31:34

you know, an empathetic connection or a meaningful connection, they

1:31:36

may not be able to have that, you know. I

1:31:38

mean, as she said, like, if you're gonna be that

1:31:40

person and you're gonna run a company that changes the

1:31:43

world, you may not be the kind of person that

1:31:45

needs to have kids if you

1:31:47

wanna have a meaningful connection with them. If

1:31:49

you have a parent that's a vulnerable

1:31:52

narcissist or a malignant narcissist, that's

1:31:54

gonna be really detrimental, you know. Children can't

1:31:57

make sense of that. They can't make sense

1:31:59

of... of someone who's punitive. They can't

1:32:01

make sense of someone who's gonna use a

1:32:06

negative and really harmful manipulation and

1:32:08

in many cases abuse. Rage

1:32:12

is a huge component of narcissism. A

1:32:14

lot of times people honestly can just

1:32:16

be assholes or jerks or they can

1:32:18

be self-righteous, they can be all of

1:32:20

these things. But if there's not that

1:32:22

aspect of walking on eggshells because of

1:32:24

their lashing out at you, that's

1:32:28

a different category. And that's not kind of what she's

1:32:30

talking about. So when you think about it like that,

1:32:34

you think about a communal narcissist even as

1:32:36

a parent, they might be the life of

1:32:38

the potluck, they might be the person that

1:32:41

has to bring the thing, but what's happening

1:32:43

at home? What's happening if you cross them?

1:32:45

What's happening if someone outdoes them, right? That's

1:32:47

gonna impact the child because they're witnessing that.

1:32:50

And in terms of having a

1:32:52

parent who would fall under the

1:32:54

neglectful narcissism spectrum, that's literally the

1:32:56

definition of conditional love. I

1:32:59

will only give to you if you give

1:33:01

me what I need and the list of

1:33:03

what I need, right? May vary, it may

1:33:06

not make sense, especially not gonna make sense

1:33:08

to a young child. So this

1:33:10

is a really, really specific. And

1:33:12

there's a lot of literature specifically around

1:33:14

what happens if your mother is the

1:33:17

narcissist and I don't mean to be

1:33:19

gendered about it, but historically

1:33:21

there's specific research about what it's

1:33:23

like for historically the parent that

1:33:25

is in theory, the one who

1:33:27

might be, breastfeeding

1:33:30

or in charge of childcare, which statistically speaking women

1:33:32

tend to be in charge of childcare, even if

1:33:34

they are the primary breadwinner. So

1:33:36

there is a special notion of what

1:33:39

relationship changes happen

1:33:41

when it's your mother that's

1:33:43

the narcissist. But yeah,

1:33:45

this is not a fun one. It's really not

1:33:47

a fun one to go through life with a

1:33:49

parent who's a narcissist. What it

1:33:51

looks like is you never get your needs met,

1:33:53

ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. You can never win.

1:33:57

And she talked about that. You can never win

1:33:59

with a narcissist. parent. There's always a

1:34:01

price to pay. You always have to

1:34:03

pay the piper. And it also sets

1:34:05

you up for having a

1:34:07

really, really unsafe set of expectations around

1:34:10

what intimacy looks like. You

1:34:12

can also start shutting down and not expecting that

1:34:14

there is intimacy. So that can lead to people

1:34:16

who are closed off, intimacy

1:34:18

avoidance, relational avoidance.

1:34:21

Yeah. I mean, I think also, you know, we

1:34:23

didn't really talk a lot about the overlap with

1:34:25

addiction. There's a tremendous overlap with addiction. You

1:34:28

know, this is the kind of thing of like, add fuel

1:34:30

to the fire of narcissism in the form of

1:34:32

alcohol and like everything gets bigger. It'll get better

1:34:34

until it gets a lot worse, right? Rage is

1:34:36

going to be worse if someone is intoxicated,

1:34:39

right? So there's also

1:34:42

this notion of like, when you grow up

1:34:44

in addiction, you'll see a lot of the

1:34:46

same patterns as if you grow up with

1:34:48

a narcissistic parent, even if there's no alcohol

1:34:51

in the home. This is one of those, you

1:34:53

know, kind of dysfunctional, maladaptive personalities that if you

1:34:55

grow up with it, it's going to look a

1:34:57

lot like you grew up, you know, with someone

1:35:00

who was an addict. Make sure to

1:35:02

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1:35:21

know about narcissism. And from our breakdown

1:35:23

to the one we hope you never have, we will see

1:35:25

you next time.