0:01

If you read John's early writing, you know, even earlier scripts at 16 candles, there, there was even more stuff that was really kind of inappropriate.

0:10

And like when you read it now, you're sort of like what the, you know, what what's, what was this person thinking?

0:17

Hi, I'm Maya Bialik and welcome to my breakdown.

0:19

This is the place where we break things down.

0:20

So you don't have to Alex,

0:24

break down, she's going to break it down for you because you knew she knows a thing or two.

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Let us grow for sponsoring this episode And you could not break down, but we're breaking down today.

1:55

If you tried, but before we get to who we're talking to today, the person who tries the hardest of any person, I know Jonathan Cohen.

2:05

Hello, my name. It could be a bad thing, but I meant it.

2:08

I mean, I try so hard, but I never succeed and that's not What

2:12

I meant. Jonathan Cohen. Okay.

2:14

How does this go in? I'm a hard worker.

2:15

How are you feeling? Pretty good. How about you?

2:17

You're a hard worker and you try hard.

2:21

I care.

2:21

It's

2:21

like

2:21

when

2:21

people

2:21

bake

2:21

with

2:21

love,

2:26

You, you live with drying.

2:28

I live with trying this, right.

2:30

We're talking to a real icon today.

2:34

Teen heartthrob. She Really was the portrait of teen angst.

2:38

You know, not just like perky sunshiny, goodness, or hilarity, which are important things.

2:44

Molly Ringwald has agreed to speak to us today.

2:46

It's very exciting.

2:48

I mean, I was an enormous fan.

2:51

I did not have very successful social kind of life in a lot of the years when her movies, the John Hughes movies in particular and all of those brat pack movies were around.

3:03

And I really felt understood by a lot of aspects of her character, her struggles in the characters she played.

3:11

And she was this like perfectly not perfect.

3:14

You know, she was a red head.

3:16

She had freckles. I mean, this woman's skin is, it looks like it's this porcelain, like she's, You've

3:22

described that you felt a lot of teenage tanks.

3:24

You talk about the very moody.

3:27

Yeah. You talked about the authors that you would read and the philosophers.

3:29

Did you look at her characters and, and feel like that could be a version of you?

3:36

You know, I, I watched her movies when I was younger, let's say than the age that she was.

3:40

She's not that much older than me, but she's older enough that like, when I saw 16 candles, 16 seemed like a grownup.

3:47

You know, I was, I was young still by the time I got to 16, I was a very different person than her characters were, you know, at 16 I was, yeah.

3:58

I didn't, I didn't feel like I had the same confidence.

4:01

And even now, like she just seems, so she seems really confident and comfortable in her skin.

4:07

She started acting really young.

4:09

And we're going to talk about that and talk about some of her journey.

4:12

But yeah, John Hughes movies in particular did really speak to me.

4:15

They spoke to, you know, a generation of teens who really hadn't had that voice voiced for us.

4:21

And he launched the careers of, you know, a lot of actors.

4:24

I mean, John Cusack was in early, you know, 16 candles.

4:27

And anyway, it's just, it's very, very exciting to speak to her and talk about some of her mental health practices and she's the mom of teenagers.

4:35

And she also has books that she's written like she's got a really, really interesting life, but part of her life did involve needing to kind of leave and step out of the spotlight.

4:45

And it was really good for her mental health to do that.

4:48

And we'll talk about that as well. Practically, everything in Molly Ringwald is bio.

4:51

We barely got to cause I was busy asking so many other things.

4:54

She currently stars as Mary Andrews on the CW series Riverdale.

4:57

She began her her career very, very young.

5:01

She was in many, many movies.

5:02

Betsy's wedding. That's a really good one.

5:05

I love that so much. And 16 candles, the breakfast club and pretty in pink.

5:10

That's sort of the triumvirate of eighties movies.

5:12

If, if you'd like to catch up in 1992, Molly moved to Paris and acted in some foreign films.

5:20

I mean, she was in Jean-Luc Godard king Lear.

5:23

She must be French.

5:24

I didn't even get to ask her that.

5:26

She's also been on townies, Stephen, Stephen, King's the stand, the Emmy nominated Alison Gert story and the movie Molly and American girl based on the American girl series.

5:38

She's also the author of the national bestsellers getting the pretty back.

5:42

And when it happens to you and she also has written in the New York times, Vogue salon, Esquire allure, tin house, the New York times book review and the guardian where she has a weekly advice column.

5:56

She is a jazz singer.

5:57

Her father was a jazz musician and she, she is a jazz singer.

6:01

And in addition, she's known for a very prominent new Yorker op-ed that she wrote around the me too time to speak about some of her own experiences with sexual assault and harassment, and just kind of the climate of hostility that, that many women experience, especially as, as young actresses, so honored to get to speak to this, this person, Molly Ringwald, welcome to our breakdown.

6:29

I think the last time I saw you, I was, I was in the makeup trailer.

6:34

Oh, that's right. We were at secrets secret life of the American teenager.

6:38

I spent, I spent more effort than I probably should have for this interview.

6:44

So the fact that you look great with just a little mascara and like sitting on your bed, I don't feel badly at all.

6:50

I put on under eye cream.

6:52

I put on a bold lip for my interview with Molly Ringwald.

6:55

Thank you so much for talking to us.

6:57

Sure. My pleasure, you know, in particular, I feel appropriately humbled and OD by getting to talk to, you know, more intimately, you know, having grown up really with you as an icon, which you were to.

7:09

So, so many people, we also share something very odd in common.

7:15

I too was on the facts of life.

7:18

I wasn't my guy, I was on the last two episodes of facts of life.

7:23

This was even before I was in beaches, I had just started acting and they were going to do a spinoff of facts of life.

7:29

So they auditioned like a new class of kids and it was me, it was Juliet Lewis.

7:36

It was Seth green. It was like, it was so random and it was going to be Lisa Welchel.

7:44

She was going to be the one like taking over the school.

7:46

So we did a two-part season finale of the facts of life, which then served as a pilot for what would have been a new show.

7:54

The pilot didn't get picked up. Basically You

7:56

dodged that bullet. I died, But

7:59

you know, at the time, I mean, I had grown up, you know, watching facts of life.

8:03

I was born in 1975. So I grew up with, you know, the best and the worst of, of television comedy.

8:08

I was raised on like silver spoons and three's company and, you know, happy days.

8:14

And what else did we watch?

8:17

You were, you're All of that Shirley morning, Shirley, There

8:22

we go. Morgan, Mindy.

8:23

But I, I didn't start professionally acting till I was 11, which I'm sure you can understand was considered late for child actors because most child actors do start as kind of toddlers or kids.

8:35

I know that your dad is a musician.

8:38

Your dad was also blind, correct?

8:41

Correct. And so you, you grew up in an, I would say an interesting household that I'm sure had its own challenges, but what was acting like for you?

8:48

What, what did it mean for you when you were little?

8:50

I started acting as a very, very young person.

8:55

I think my first job in community theater was three and a half.

9:00

I literally like toddled on stage with my brother in a play called the grass heart, which was based on a trim of Cambodia book.

9:08

And it was really just kind of an extracurricular activity.

9:11

The, the thing that I was really kind of serious about was singing because my dad was a jazz musician and that was kind of what I did with him.

9:20

And, you know, and I really just sort of gravitated towards performing and being on stage.

9:27

I was really a very shy kid.

9:29

I mean, I felt painfully shy, but the only place where I didn't feel shy was when I was performing in front of a lot of people.

9:36

If there was a big audience, then I, I felt very safe.

9:40

And if I was just with people in my living room, I thought I was going to die.

9:44

It was like, I just, I don't know.

9:47

I felt like protected when I was in front of an audience, but it was really kind of a lot of different things that we did.

9:53

I, I had my older brother and sister and we swam and we danced and, you know, it was just kind of, my mom was a stay at home mom.

10:01

And so she was, you know, basically to shuttling us around from one extracurricular activity to the other.

10:07

And then the singing kind of took off.

10:11

And I did what a lot of girls did in the, in the seventies when Annie came to do the first west coast production in San Francisco, in Los Angeles, I auditioned for it.

10:24

And then I got a part, I didn't get Annie, but I got, you know, one of the orphans and then my family moved from Sacramento to Los Angeles.

10:32

And then I was just kind of going, you know, I did Annie for 15 months and then that led to facts of life.

10:40

You know, I got an agent and I feel like, you know, my parents, even though my father was a jazz musician, they didn't really have any experience at all with Hollywood.

10:50

You know, I don't, I don't consider myself, you know, a legacy career at all.

10:54

Like they just, they were total novices.

10:56

They had no idea. It, it kind of seemed exciting.

10:59

I think to them to have a kid where everybody is like, wow, we think your kids is great as we think, you know, you are, and isn't this incredible, you know, they really didn't know anything about what the business was like and how truly dangerous it can be for, for children and for their development.

11:17

You know, my mom often said, if I knew, then what I know now, I never would have let you be a child actor.

11:23

And I'm kind of one of the success stories.

11:26

I mean, you know, I'm still here, but I think she, she saw what a really difficult business.

11:33

It was even starting with facts of life.

11:35

You know, I was on the first season of facts of life.

11:39

And then they decided that they wanted to narrow it down.

11:42

There was a bunch of girls like nine girls or something and the cause it was supposed to be this, you know, this private school.

11:47

Right. And then they decided they just wanted to focus on four girls.

11:50

And originally the four girls were Lisa Welchel, you know, Blair, 2d, Natalie and Molly.

11:57

And then they changed their mind and they basically fired me for no cause whatsoever and then decided that it, that they wanted to bring me on as a semi-regular, which I did at first.

12:10

But you know, when you're 12 years old and you know, things like that happen to you, it, it just, it felt so humiliating.

12:18

You know, you're just really not equipped emotionally to deal with that kind of rejection.

12:23

At least I wasn't.

12:25

And it felt very humiliating.

12:27

And you know, like I had done something wrong, but I didn't know what I did wrong.

12:31

And you know, and my mom said, you know, Hey, we don't have to, you don't have to do this anymore.

12:35

If this really feels bad to you, like let's just not do it.

12:38

And then that was it. I think I, I did one additional episode or something, you know, and, and that was just kind of, I mean, that wasn't even a particularly bad story, but you know, these things happen and, you know, they affect you.

12:50

And I feel like you have to be incredibly strong to do this as a career, you know, emotionally, and, and which is hard because by the same token, in order to be a good actor, you need to be able to access your emotions and go to that dark place.

13:07

And so it's just this, this, you know, difficult dichotomy and, you know, it's something that I've tried to understand and balance my entire life, you know, my entire career.

13:18

I've, it's something that I've, that I've worked on and struggled with.

13:21

And, you know, to varying degrees of success, Miami

13:27

Alec's breakdown is supported by better help online therapy.

13:30

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13:34

It's one of the things I credit with me being able to continue doing this podcast with you, Jonathan, it's good to think about therapy, kind of like this.

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14:33

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16:51

Well, and I think, you know, what's, what's important and kind of what, what you highlighted is, you know, we, we have spoken to too many people here who have grown up in the industry and, you know, some have had good experiences and some have had bad experiences and some have had a mixture, which I think it sounds like you have had, I, I would say I've had, you know, a mixture, but so much also depends upon individual variability.

17:14

Like you said, like, you know, what does it mean to be strong, right?

17:18

Like, like w w there's a kind of resilience, you know, for me starting acting quote late at 11 and a half meant that most of the girls in the rooms auditioning with me had already cultivated, like almost a decade of callous, meaning like, like callouses.

17:36

I don't mean being callous people.

17:38

I mean, they had been through the ringer by the time they were like eight and they had methods to make themselves feel better or to make you feel worse so that they felt better.

17:48

And the fact is like, a lot of that was driven by just kind of that, that kind of environment, you know, like it, it lent itself to that.

17:58

You know, my, my favorite example is I would, you know, other kids' moms would say to me, like, did you not get enough rest last night, you look a little tired, like, and that, and that, and that was like a routine thing that happened.

18:10

Like people would try and throw you off your 11 year old game.

18:13

But I think what's important also when we talk about these things is not to say that like, oh, this is us talking about what a unique, bizarre experience we had as famous people.

18:23

The notion is that every child, every teenager goes through periods of insecurity, rejection, devastation, and there's a full range of, of what impact that can have.

18:36

So I think it's important that like, to note that we may have done this that's right.

18:41

I'm grouping me and Molly, Molly, and I may have done this, you know, in, in front of cameras or, you know, my trips away example of a terrible audition experience that is scarred me.

18:53

I mean, I never, I don't eat chips to this day.

18:57

No, it was just, it, it was, you know, it was something that, I mean, I won't bore you with the story, but when I tell you hear the story, I want to hear the story.

19:05

So we were brought in, it was a chip soy commercial that I was auditioning for.

19:10

I was probably 12 and I, there was, this is something else that I want to get into with Molly.

19:18

You know, the notion of what kids and girls especially should look like in, in the late seventies, in the eighties, it was very different than what it is now.

19:27

I did not have luck in commercials.

19:28

It wasn't a place that I excelled.

19:30

I was quirky. I was strange.

19:32

Like I had a weird skill set of like, I can roller skate.

19:36

And I also speak Yiddish, like strange, like anyway.

19:39

So I go to this trip, so Hawaii audition and they call you in two by two.

19:45

Cause that's fun to have to go in with another human and just hope that you don't already feel less than them.

19:52

Which was like, you know, my full-time job was finding ways that I felt less than other people, which is not a healthy thing.

19:58

That's a separate story. So they call you into right jail.

20:01

And I'm called in with this girl.

20:03

I already don't feel like I belong because no one looks like me.

20:06

I don't look like anyone. Like I, I'm not developed yet.

20:09

I'm like this weird scrawny, like big head, tiny body person.

20:13

And people are thinking, you need a cookie, but people are thinking I need a cookie.

20:18

So they put on music and the music happened to be Michael Jackson's bad.

20:22

This is not a statement on whether or not people should listen to Michael Jackson.

20:26

I just want you to picture. It's like basically a soundstage, a bunch of dudes and one, one camera, one video camera and two people, two girls on the stage kids.

20:37

And they put on Michael Jackson's bad.

20:39

And the assignment was just like, dance.

20:42

Like have a great time. I know, right?

20:45

Oh, hurts. My stomach already hurts.

20:48

Tell

20:48

us

20:48

why

20:48

that

20:48

hurts

20:48

her

20:51

style. That's why it hurts your stomach. And then I'll tell you Why.

20:53

I just put myself there.

20:55

Like, I, I, you know, I've been in that situation and you know, when I used to go out for commercials and I just, you know, and already, you know, just the dance thing, even though I took dance lessons, if somebody said just dance, it was like that.

21:09

It just, yeah, it just fills me with anguish.

21:11

Go, go, go on, fill me with more English.

21:14

It's not even that it's, open-ended like, let's just talk about this kind of anxiety.

21:17

If you, like, I had been in dance since I was four years old, I could do a routine.

21:21

I could do a ballet routine. I was like, I'm a tap dancer.

21:24

Like I could do all that. That's not the issue.

21:26

It's the free form.

21:28

Like show us how much you deserve this based.

21:33

And it's like, sure, I could have done a routine, but then it would've looked like I was doing my like tap dance routine and same thing with like improv.

21:39

I'm not an improv person. Like write me what to say and I'll make it work.

21:43

Okay, fine. So, so the music comes on.

21:46

Remember, there's one video camera, two people on a stage, me and this other girl, one camera.

21:52

And it starts, you can tell it starts on a wide shot, a two shot.

21:56

You can tell by how the framing is working.

21:58

And as the music goes on and me and this other girl are dancing.

22:02

I see the camera slowly, starts to turn to her and it's zooming in on her.

22:09

And I'm then like, do I keep dancing?

22:13

Saturday stopped dancing.

22:15

That feels sad too.

22:17

Cause all the like other people in the room and be like, Ugh, like whatever, whatever my fear was.

22:22

And also this is one of those times when you come out of the audition and your mom, who's doing her best.

22:27

It's like, I'm sure it wasn't that no, it was that bad lady who gave birth to me.

22:32

It was that bad.

22:33

And I'm like the queen of when people are like, I'm sure they didn't notice.

22:37

Oh, they noticed like my whole life when people are like it, wasn't, you're going to be fine.

22:41

I'm not going to be fine.

22:43

So that was the chips of horror.

22:46

And I, I still have my journal.

22:47

I was a journal keeper.

22:49

I still have my journal.

22:51

And I did a very angry drawing when I came home of this other girl, God knows where she is now.

22:57

She's probably telling this story.

22:59

My Bialik audition next to me for the commercial.

23:02

No, but I think that, you know, whether it's a school play, whether it's a class presentation, I mean, my boys are 13 and 16.

23:11

And I remember the first time my younger one had to do like his first presentation in his little homeschool class.

23:16

Like every personality is different.

23:19

You have no idea how any particular and you know, you're a mother also like when you experience learning about a human's personality, as it's developing, you have no idea what's going to impact them.

23:29

And the things that you tolerated that you've written very courageously about, those might be incredibly traumatic for someone else.

23:37

And they may never want to enter a public sphere again in any way.

23:41

So can you speak a little bit to kind of, you know, the, in your experience say compared to what you might anticipate for your kids or just kind of what that was like, you know, even pre you know, 16 candles, right?

23:54

This is before we even knew you on a larger scale.

23:58

Well, it's interesting, you know, I feel like it's, it's obviously it's not just, you know, acting that puts these kids into these positions where they, they have to figure out how they're going to deal with how resilient they're going to be.

24:14

You know, how much grit they're going to have.

24:16

You know, I have, I have twins, I have an almost 18 year old daughter.

24:20

My, my eldest is going to be 18 actually tomorrow, which kind of blows my mind.

24:25

And then I have 12 year old twins, they're boy, girl twins.

24:28

And it's really interesting to watch them because, you know, they've been together since they were in utero and watching how, and they couldn't be more different.

24:37

They really are like yin yang and their personalities just are completely different.

24:42

But you know, my, my 12 year old girl plays soccer and, and she's a really good player.

24:48

And my husband coached for a couple of years and you know, she's, she's really kind of talented, but this year there's another coach and it's, it's been really difficult for her.

24:59

You know, I guess not having her dad there, her confidence has been down a little bit, but they do this thing.

25:04

I hope that nobody, none of the parents on the team listened to your podcast, but what I'm going to tell it anyway, because I think it's, it's interesting.

25:12

They do this thing where they, which I really don't think should be done anymore, where they, they pick the kids, they pick individual players and they say, okay, you put your team together.

25:25

So it, yeah, I know immediately.

25:29

You're like, really, we're still doing that.

25:31

We're still doing that. You know, like, what is the point other than to make somebody, somebody, two girls are always going to feel bad, no matter what.

25:39

And it was, I think, two weeks in a row or something, my, my daughter was picked last and, and felt absolutely terrible.

25:49

I went to pick her up and that day I was a little bit late because I parked too far away and I could tell, as soon as I got there, you know, her face was just, you know, I, I, we have to leave right now.

25:59

We have to leave. And I was like, what happened? I don't want to talk about it.

26:01

I don't want to talk about it. And it took a little while for her to talk about it.

26:04

And then she told me what happened. And I was so mad and immediately she could see the anger in my face.

26:09

And she said, don't talk to anyone.

26:11

Don't, don't call the coach. Don't do that.

26:14

It'll make it so much worse. Don't do that.

26:15

And I was like, what do I do?

26:17

What do I do with this anger? How do you know?

26:19

And then I'm thinking, okay, should I tell her if she doesn't want to do it anymore?

26:22

She doesn't have to do it, but then what kind of message am I telling her?

26:26

And so I just kind of like, let it go and just try to listen to her, you know?

26:32

And then this is how she dealt with it.

26:34

The next practice she got there an hour and a half early, like this is just her.

26:41

She gets there like an hour early.

26:43

There's another team plane, you know, like two years ahead, they see her, the coaches come over and talk to her and say, Hey, if you're still playing soccer, you know, in a couple years, I really want you on my team.

26:55

You're amazing. So that kind of like gave her confidence, you know?

26:59

And then the next time when they chose her to be the captain to, to pick, you know, her players, she said, and she told me she was going to do this.

27:06

She said, I'm going to pick every kid that's always picked last.

27:08

And when it was her turn, that's what she did.

27:12

And when she did it, her, her team won, you know, and I thought, wow, this is, this is kind of amazing.

27:19

It was sort of amazing to sort of sit back and just listen to her and kind of, I don't know, absorb the pain a little bit because that's kind of what you have to do when you, when you list, when you're an active listener, you just have to sort of take it and feel it and not feel it more than she does and not less just kind of be present and then, and then see where she goes with it.

27:42

And I thought, and I was kind of happy because I felt like it really showed an incredible amount of resilience that I don't know if that can be taught.

27:50

I think I'm kind of, I, I don't know.

27:54

I don't know if that's just something that can be taught by example, or if that's just like in her DNA, if she has something in her DNA that, that I have, because I had to have a great deal of resilience, anybody who does what we do has to have that kind of resilience because you're constantly no matter who you are, you're always being knocked down.

28:12

You're always as great as some people think you are.

28:15

There's always somebody else that seems to have more and there's always somebody else that they want.

28:21

And so, and you're always going through rejection and I think you really do have to have something in your core that can handle that and you either have it, or you don't.

28:30

I really don't think that it can be taught.

28:31

And I was kind of relieved in a way to see that my daughter seems to have that.

28:37

And I hope that she can hold on to, You

28:40

talked about kind of being an active listener. And I don't think this is just relevant for people who are parents.

28:44

I think it's really relevant for anyone dealing with this next generation of humans, as, as they make their way around the planet, doing all the things they do, you know, and we kind of joke about their wokeness and you know, how, how much they demand of us.

28:59

But, but I do, I mean, I can't help, but think back to, you know, when I was my kid's age, right.

29:04

And I was actively working in an adult industry, but I think there was a lot more of a notion.

29:10

And, you know, you're a couple of years ahead of me, there was a lot more of a notion of like, that's just life deal with it.

29:17

And everything kind of got thrown into that bucket.

29:20

Like, oh, he made a comment about your breast size and you're a child and he's an adult just deal with it.

29:27

That's the business, you know, or like, oh, this person, like it stole all your money.

29:33

Like, oh, sucks. When that happens, you know, like all these things happen.

29:37

And like I see now we're, we're in a very different consciousness of how we interact with humans, you know, like not just with actor people, but I, you know, as I've, you know, kind of reflected and I've kind of followed your writing specifically, you know, surrounding the period of time when, when many people in the world came to know you, is that there was this notion that like, that's just the way it is.

30:02

And I think it's so interesting, not just to think about it from like a socio-cultural perspective, but from a mental health perspective, to say there were things and ways that we functioned that we can objectively look back and say, this was not healthy and this was not right.

30:18

And you know, when I talk about not just about, you know, what you've written in particular about 16 candles, but when I started reflecting on how much that movie meant to me, first of all, just because I was, I was of that era.

30:35

I was that girl who was like one day, someone will see me for who I am like that that really spoke to me.

30:42

And it's true. John Hughes tapped into a very specific aspect of teenage hood and in particular kind of the, the female, yes.

30:51

The heteronormative female experience at that time.

30:53

But to think about some of the things, right, that occurred both in movies, in culture, like those were things that like, when I tell my children the problematic aspects, let's say of 16 candles that, you know, need to be discussed.

31:08

They're like, I'm sorry, what happened in the screen?

31:10

And I'm like, I know it sounds like it sounds so out of place, but like, that was like my favorite movie.

31:19

And I was a feminist like, but that's how much our perception of what is acceptable can and should change.

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33:59

But

33:59

I

33:59

think

33:59

about

33:59

it

33:59

also

33:59

in

33:59

terms

33:59

of

33:59

our

33:59

mental

34:07

health. And I wonder if you kind of have, you know, a little bit of, you know, I don't want to make you just like repeat the incredible profound things that you've said about it, but I think also there's been a real paradigm shift, you know, in, in how we view what's acceptable.

34:20

Maybe you can speak to that a little bit.

34:23

Yeah. I mean, I, I have a lot of feelings about it.

34:26

A lot of, you know, mixed feelings.

34:28

I think I, I probably could have written a book and in fact, probably one day I w I will write a book about it because that article, even though it was a pretty long article, what about the breakfast club?

34:41

The one that, that was in the new Yorker, there was still even more that I could have said about it.

34:49

It it's confusing because I like you love those movies.

34:55

I mean, they were, I mean, first of all, there were not that many movies that were about young women where the protagonist was a young woman and they were the one that they were the ones that were directing the action.

35:09

They weren't just somebody's girlfriend, or, you know, love and trust or daughter or whatever, you know, so that made it, you know, sort of groundbreaking, you know, and, and also there were funny, I mean, there were funny and light and, you know, and really, I think reflected a lot of people's feelings about, you know, insecurity and being different, you know, like you, I was the typical, you know, All-American girl, which is really funny because I sort of became that, or I, you know, people viewed me as that later, but really I wasn't.

35:48

I mean, my sister really was much more that she was blonde hair, blue eyes.

35:53

Like we don't even look like we're from the same family, but that was really kind of what was in fashion at the time.

35:59

And I was sort of different.

36:00

I was kind of pale and skinny and, you know, freckles and, you know, the reddish hair and all of that.

36:08

So anyway, just to say, there, there so much that I, that I love and that I'm grateful for.

36:16

And yet at the same time, it is a little disturbing to think that that that was just normal, you know, things that happened in, in that movie, you know, th the fact that, that, I mean, the thing that really bothered me the most, which I wrote about was the character of Caroline being sort of bartered by her boyfriend.

36:37

Who's supposed to be the dream boat, you know, Jake, Ryan basically barters her when she's drunk and, you know, for this young kid to have sex with in, in a car and, and that that's supposed to be okay, you know, because in the morning when she wakes up and doesn't really remember what happens, that's right.

36:56

I says, I think I liked it, you know?

36:59

Right. Yeah. You know, even then as a, as a, I was, I think I was 15 when I, no, I was 16 when I did 16 candles.

37:10

You know, there were a lot, if you read John's early writing, you know, even earlier scripts of 16 candles, there was even more stuff that was really kind of inappropriate.

37:20

And like, when you read it now, you're sort of like, what the, you know, what what's, what was this person thinking?

37:26

You know, there was a lot of stuff.

37:29

And sometimes I would, well, a lot of times I would, I would, we had the kind of relationship where I could say, oh, this is icky.

37:35

Or I don't like this, or I don't get this, or this doesn't make sense.

37:38

So this kind of cheapens it, or this is not my experience as a teenager.

37:42

And, and he would really listen to me and he would cut a lot of stuff, but then there were other things like the Carolina stuff, like where, you know, he didn't listen to me and I did find it icky.

37:52

I found it kind of creepy when we're sort of like in the shower and we're, we were ogling her.

37:57

I was like, I would never do that as a teenager.

38:00

I mean, I would never, but you know, you win some, you lose some.

38:04

But what really, what I I feel is is that there was just a lot in those movies that, that we just kind of accepted because that was our experience.

38:17

And, you know, and there's a question about whether, you know, films or books or whatever should reflect a society, or whether they should change it.

38:27

I feel like they can do a little bit of both, but John really wasn't out to change anything.

38:34

He really about reflecting, you know, his particular work world and, and his world was very small.

38:43

You know, he was very privileged.

38:45

He lived in this little suburb of Chicago.

38:47

He came from money.

38:48

It was not integrated at all.

38:53

I mean, any, any LGBTQ stuff was, we didn't even have that acronym, you know, and it was never talked about, homosexuality was only talked about it as a, as a derogative term, you know?

39:07

So, so there's all of that.

39:10

And, but, but by the same token, I think that he really was writing about a particular time that also happens to have resonated with people outside of that world, which I think is interesting, you know, so I think that there's something in there that connects people.

39:30

And I feel like that, that message of, of that otherness, it doesn't matter if these characters were white or, you know, upper middle class or whatever.

39:41

I feel like that feeling of feeling different and feeling like you don't belong, speaks to every different socioeconomic background.

39:51

And so people just kind of use it as an avatar to feel their own feelings.

39:55

And I feel like that's kind of why those, those films still sort of resonate today.

40:00

And I think also, I mean, I'm not surprised how humble you are, but a tremendous amount of that, of what drove that narrative really at that time really was this, this character that you were, and obviously you were the actress embodying that.

40:18

But I think, I mean, I don't think I'm just speaking for myself.

40:21

I think the notion also that this was not an overly confident, overly popular overly kind of saccharin, you know, persona that was kind of the leading lady, right.

40:34

This was someone who was finding her place, trying to find where she fit.

40:40

Like, and I think that really specifically resonated with a lot of people, but something that is so different about the time that you, you know, were acting and, and so prominent in people's lives, you existed at a time.

40:54

And I mean, I did to a lesser extent where there was not a publicity machine surrounding in particular young, young women.

41:03

And, you know, when I think about, I mean, you were very well-protected at least, you know, in my knowledge, at that time from press, meaning press was not out there for young girls, like put on your false lashes and your Spanx it's time to walk the carpet.

41:19

Like we existed in a very different world without internet, meaning there was no social media and there wasn't even this notion of like a publicity machine churning out young girls to make them look like women.

41:34

I mean, I think that's, it it's an important part, but it also, it gave you this extra special allure, you know, like, meaning, I mean, I would look everywhere to find things on you.

41:47

Right. Because that's what we did. No, but, but there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of places for that.

41:51

And so I also, like, I can't help, but like, you know, I look at kind of like your story and like you you've had a foreign husband and then you're like with another farm, like, you're just like this exotic, like you get, you get to exist really kind of out of this sort of machine that, that young women exist in today.

42:09

And I'm, I'm just curious, like, what was that like, you know, to, to have that, that kind of fame and notoriety, but still need to develop as a person and still kind of have the opportunity to do that.

42:23

Like, did you go away? Is that how you found for in humans?

42:29

Well, I think that really was a choice that I made and it's true.

42:33

We didn't have the publicity machine.

42:36

I mean, we, I did have a publicist that was just something, you know, that you have, you have an agent, you have a publicist, you have, you know, maybe you have a manager.

42:43

So I did have that.

42:46

But you know, like for instance, when, when you went to an award show, I presented at the academy awards a couple of times and you know, I picked out my dress.

42:54

I think I paid from, yeah, I paid for my dress.

42:56

You know, that was just something that you did anytime I would go to a premiere or something.

43:02

It wasn't like people were, you know, giving me the clothes or paying me to wear their clothes.

43:08

It was like, no, I it's just like, and I think I just preferred it that way.

43:13

I mean, I feel like my, my, the way that I dress for better, for worse, you know, represents who I am and how can I really represent who I am as if somebody else is doing it?

43:23

You know, it just seems very so personal to me, but that's really me.

43:26

I mean, there were other girls that were my age that I think were putting themselves out there more than I was.

43:35

I was always a really private person.

43:37

And I, and I kind of knew sort of early on that, that it was a, it was a survival technique that if I was out there too much, that there wouldn't be anything left for me.

43:49

And, and I, and I sort of needed to process things personally, like privately and I did go away.

43:59

I think that's really why I ended up in France because I had been working for so much of my childhood.

44:04

And then my teen years, I really kind of, I was sort of my early twenties.

44:10

I F I felt very uninspired in Los Angeles.

44:13

You know, I, I didn't really know what I wanted to do.

44:16

I, I, I applied to college for that for the first time which I got in.

44:22

I applied to USC, the only college that I applied to, and they accepted me with the caveat that I had to do special math courses.

44:29

Cause it was not my strong suit.

44:31

And then I went to Paris and I felt so happy there because I felt like, because at that time, I mean, now those films has sort of become cult films everywhere.

44:42

Well, I wouldn't say everywhere, but at least in Europe.

44:45

And so I, I felt like I could walk around and not be recognized.

44:52

And I thought, well, if this feels this good, you know, I don't have a family right now.

44:57

I mean, I don't have, you know, my own kids, I'm not married.

45:00

You know, if I ever do this in my life now is the time to do it.

45:03

And it was just sort of like, I knew that that's what I had to do.

45:07

And so I really do attribute that choice to my longevity and my, and, and sort of saving my mental health.

45:16

I just knew that if I stayed in Los Angeles that, you know, maybe it would have been better for my career in the short run, but it was just not, it wasn't right for me.

45:27

And I really felt like I needed to develop.

45:29

I needed to find other things that made me happy other than acting.

45:32

And I, I think there's nothing like living somewhere else in a, in a different culture, completely, you know, where their views on, you know, the wars and, you know, politics and every, you know, where everything is just kind of turned on its head where suddenly you're looking at everything through a different lens.

45:49

And that was, I think it's really sort of where I kind of learned to write.

45:54

It's where I learned to observe.

45:56

And I just learned to kind of like step outside of myself and kind of view the world in a different way.

46:01

And I feel like that that's really what I needed to do.

46:04

Were you ever in Therapy

46:05

when you Were young? I started going to therapy as a teenager because I started to have a lot of depression and anxiety and we didn't even say anxiety then it was not a word that I think we, it's certainly not a word that we use.

46:22

Like we use it now, but it looked like For

46:25

you. I mean, like how, how did you describe it?

46:27

You know, Just

46:29

excessive worry, overthinking, catastrophizing, every movie that I, that I made, I felt like it was going to be a bomb.

46:38

It had to be a bomb because I had already been so lucky so early that this had to be, you know, it was just sort of like getting in my own way and it just felt bad.

46:46

And, and I was really very depressive.

46:49

You know, depression is just runs through my family, both sides, you know, it, and it was really bad in my teen years.

46:58

I think most of it was probably a lot of it was hormonal.

47:01

I don't feel I'm still depressive, but, but nothing.

47:05

Like I was in my teens in my early twenties, I think, I think that was really kind of like the worst time.

47:11

So I started to go to therapy as a teenager, and then I kind of have gone off and on over the years, I'm big, big proponent for, you know, therapy, but also not all there.

47:25

Like I really feel like it it's so much about a relationship.

47:27

You know, it me a few times to find somebody that, that I really connected with that was like, you know, had the special sauce.

47:34

You know, the one that, you know, they have to be, you know, intellectual, they have to be, you know, have a sense of humor.

47:42

It's like Dating, you gotta kiss a lot of frogs.

47:46

It's like any other relationship you really sort of need to connect in that way.

47:50

And, and I'm really fortunate.

47:52

I found some really good therapists at different times in my life where, you know, somebody is really good when it's been years since you've seen them.

48:00

But something that they said to you just kind of is so lodged in your brain, that it just always comes back as sort of like a guiding a guiding principle.

48:10

And I've been lucky.

48:12

I've had some really good therapist, you know, No,

48:14

it's a match. When you have a full blown panic attack, the first time you meet your therapist and suggest that perhaps she called the Hospital,

48:21

that Happened to you. Yes.

48:23

With my therapist that I've been with for 20 years, apparently it's a sign of true vulnerability.

48:28

I, and I'm not talking an anxiety attack.

48:31

I'm very, I'm a real stickler here for the difference between anxiety attacks and panic attacks.

48:35

We do not like to cross them by panic attack.

48:38

I mean, I was, I was in and out of both my body and my conscious experience and thought that maybe it was time to go to the hospital and she's like, no, I think you just need to take a couple deep breaths.

48:49

We just met it's okay.

48:51

And I haven't left her office for 20 years.

48:56

Anyway. Molly is like, wow, she's really messed up.

48:59

Anyhow. No,

49:01

I I'm. I'm really interested by panic attacks because I don't think I've ever had one.

49:06

I feel like I've had a lot of anxiety and look at me, I'm getting really competitive.

49:11

Like you had a panic attack, but, but I'm in pain too.

49:15

No, I, I really don't think that I've had what, what can be actually, I mean, from what I know of panic attacks, you, you feel like you're Having

49:24

a heart attack, call the hospital. Yeah, Yeah.

49:27

Go there.

49:29

Yeah. No, I've never had that. I've, I've been very, very upset.

49:32

I've had, you know, difficulty breathing, you know, mostly brought on by not being able to stop crying.

49:39

You know, I've had all of those, but I haven't had the, oh my God, I'm my, my heart's going to give out.

49:44

I have And have that. You know, I don't, I don't love asking this question, but I think it's, it's important to, because of, you know, the, the time that you were in the public eye.

49:53

And I even get asked this and kind of have to think about it for a minute.

49:58

You know, not every female has body image issues in the industry, but there's definitely a lot of attention paid to us and our bodies in ways that we don't pay attention necessarily to, to boys or men the same way.

50:16

And part of that is simply the cultural differences in how women are expected to dress and present.

50:22

But, you know, I like to remind people when I was, let's say on blossom from the time I was 14 to 19, this would have been 1989, you know, to 94, 95 Spanx didn't exist.

50:33

Like it wasn't like it didn't exist.

50:36

Meaning if you didn't like the way your body looked in clothes, you would just wear something else.

50:41

You know, if, if you had, if you had curves in places that that dress didn't allow, the answer was size it up or get a different dress.

50:52

So the, the, the consciousness I had about my body was so different because that wasn't part of it just, wasn't part of like where my head was.

51:03

And I am curious, you know, what that was like, or if that was spoken about in your experience.

51:09

Yeah. Like, I'm just, I'm curious.

51:11

I mean, when I was younger, the way that I dressed, it was just kind of my style.

51:16

I was like, you know, I really looked up to Diane Keaton.

51:19

She was kind of like my, you know, fashion, you know, mentor.

51:24

So the way that I dressed, it was kind of, you know, baggy, it was layered.

51:28

It was, you know, it was, it was not, you know, I, I did wear more form fitting stuff at, you know, as a, as an older teenager, but, you know, when you say Spanx didn't exist, it's true.

51:40

They didn't exist in this like little period of time when we were growing up.

51:45

But if you think about it bigger, totally existed girdles.

51:48

Right. I mean, we had, we had this like little glorious moment where we didn't have that, where we freed ourselves and then it just all came back and, you know, I'm, I'm not a fan of Spanx.

51:59

I don't, they just, you know, they, they don't feel good to me.

52:04

So yeah, I, I would size up, you know, I have in my wardrobe, I have clothes for when I'm 10 pounds heavier and 10 pounds lighter because I always, I'm always going to go up and down the same 10 pounds.

52:17

And I don't want to just get rid of stuff because I know that I'm going to want to wear it again.

52:21

And I want to be able to have that available to me when I, when I need it.

52:25

You know, I don't really freak out too much.

52:28

I, you know, I try to stay healthy. I try to stay just because I feel better when I'm closer to my, what, the weight that I feel like I'm supposed to be.

52:36

I can just feel it. It's like easier for me to exercise and do the stuff that I want to do when I 10 pounds lighter.

52:43

But I just don't, I, you know, I kind of made the choice that I'm just not going to be one of those women with those body.

52:51

Like, I just, I feel like I have much more of a, a normal, you know, I'm, I'm strong, I'm athletic.

52:57

I'm just, I'm happy that everything functions, you know, like that's kind of where I'm at now, you know, but I do go through it with my, with my daughters and, and also, I don't think, yes, it's true.

53:09

That, that, that women are, are sort of, there's more expected of them, but I really think that it's gone to the men too.

53:16

I feel like men do feel like they should look a certain way.

53:21

They should look like these Marvel superheroes.

53:23

They need to be more, they need to, you know, they need to be skinny.

53:27

Like it really has kind of, you know, men, men anorexia is, is totally on the rise in a way that it wasn't before.

53:36

So I think that it, you know, I worry about all my kids in that way and just try to sort of, you know, model healthy behavior and, you know, and again, just kind of be an active listener and kind of check in with them every so often.

53:50

But, you know, I think that the social media is, I mean, you studied this, right?

53:57

I mean, isn't, I don't, I don't know exactly.

53:59

I've, I've read up on you a little bit, but I know that you, that you went to school and you, you study the brain.

54:08

I studied upset. I mean, obsessive compulsive disorder was the topic of my thesis, but yeah, I was in, in neuroscience and it's funny, I'm often asked about like my opinion as a neuroscientist and mom about screen time.

54:20

And like, I'm certain that no one should be on their screens for longer than two hours.

54:25

Like I really, and of course, I mean, we do these like time checks on the weekends, it's horrendous.

54:32

Like, I, I won't even say in case my children ever want to listen to our podcast, I don't even want to say how many hours they spend on the week.

54:41

Like, it's, it has taken over, it's taken over the family dynamic.

54:45

It has taken over the mental health of the home, you know, minor.

54:50

Yeah. 13 and 16. And you know, there have been years of my life where I feel like all I do is fight for time in a way that they used to love to spend it with me.

55:00

And my younger son's computer, his gaming laptop actually broke and apart.

55:06

And like, that's a whole thing. And it's not an interesting story except to me, but we watched a family movie.

55:12

I can't tell you the last time we did that when I wasn't like, God damn it, we're going to enjoy each other's company.

55:17

We fucking love each other.

55:19

Cause we're a family get down here.

55:21

Goddammit. And like, we, we played a board game and it was like a game that I've been trying to give away because no one plays it.

55:28

And we had the best time. And I don't mean to sound like that 90 year old mom, but I'm like, My

55:34

thirteen-year-old shakes when he's not on his tech.

55:37

Like you can get them off and engaged in something, but then he'll just circles around to like any type of boredom.

55:43

He starts being like twitching and I'm like, yeah.

55:46

And then he just starts buzzing around the house.

55:48

Like you want to put them on tech because you're like, yo, I got to settle this.

55:51

That's a jug. We will give you the drug because your withdrawal is so great.

55:55

I mean, yeah. And, and, and also Fred, God love him.

55:58

That's my younger one. He'll be like, look, I loaded the dishwasher.

56:01

Mama, you look great today.

56:03

Mama, what was your day mama?

56:04

And I'm like, know what you're doing?

56:06

You want to go back upstairs?

56:09

I feel comfortable upstairs.

56:11

And those are my friends waiting for me.

56:13

And I feel like a Dodo.

56:15

Cause I'm like, I do look great today.

56:18

Yeah. I totally get what you're talking about.

56:22

It's it's I think it's what I'm going through.

56:24

I think that's what all parents are going through.

56:26

You know, we're constantly trying to figure out how to stay on top of the tech.

56:30

You know, we have a, we have a system which you may or may not have where you actually can just turn it off from your phone.

56:37

You know, The

56:40

day I would not survive, he will murder me in my sleep.

56:46

Well, we, we put this in place just because, you know, at first, at first I was very naive.

56:51

I gave my older daughter, you know, a phone and all of that before I think she was really ready because in my mind I thought this is the future.

57:02

She's going to have to learn how to use this responsibly.

57:05

Totally. You know? Yeah. Well that was what I was.

57:08

That's what I thought I was wrong.

57:09

It was completely wrong.

57:11

But that, that was kind of my thinking.

57:13

They, but they, they're not able to do that.

57:17

Children. They can regulate, they can regulate.

57:20

I mean, they need our help to regulate all sorts of ups and downs of life.

57:24

And that's kinda how I see it. It's like, they also shouldn't have to deal with like the rejection they feel when somebody steals all their things, in whatever games they blocks.

57:34

Yes. Then everybody's crying and then I'm crying over like some kid I've never met and maybe they're an adult.

57:39

Like I don't even know who they are.

57:42

I know it's a very sad thing.

57:44

It's a very sad lesson that our kids learn when they, when they lose this like very precious thing that they've been saving up for and they lose it because they trusted someone.

57:54

I

57:54

mean,

57:54

it's

57:54

heartbreaking,

57:54

but

57:54

you're

57:54

like,

57:58

yeah. Okay. So what don't listen, I

58:01

don't trust anyone. I have another question that might be sensitive.

58:04

Your children, you have been married, you were divorced and you are married again, correct?

58:11

Yes. Yes. Are your children with your first husband or your second?

58:15

The husband? No, my second. All three are with Panio.

58:18

Yeah. Yeah. I envy that.

58:20

Cause it is hard being divorced from the person, because then you have two people who don't live in the same house, trying to make decisions about children who live in two houses.

58:28

It's a special kind of challenge.

58:31

Yeah. I think, I mean, people do it and you know, people can do it marvelously and I, and I like hats off to them.

58:38

It's like hats off to any single parent because I find, I, I honestly don't know how I would be able to do it without my husband.

58:48

I mean, we are complete co-parents in everything and anything.

58:53

Molly don't make me.

58:55

I mean, I know that people, you know, whatever should happens, people die, people, separate people, you know, that that happens in you and you figure out a way you adapt, you know?

59:06

And, and there's silver linings and all that.

59:08

I just know that I find parenting so challenging on, on a daily basis.

59:14

Just like with time with, you know, everything that has to be done.

59:18

We don't have childcare right now.

59:20

We're just doing it all ourselves.

59:21

And so, you know, you know, I mean, it's like, it's like being a chauffeur.

59:26

It's like being a camp counselor.

59:28

It's like being a psychologist.

59:31

I thought moving past the phase where I was the 24 hour entertainment was going to make things easier.

59:36

Remember those years where they're just like entertain me all day, look at me.

59:41

Are you looking at me? Are you watching me? Yeah. Anyway.

59:43

Yeah. We haven't totally gone beyond that phase yet.

59:46

Maybe, maybe with, with, with Matilda, my eldest, but the other two, it's like, you can't take them to do anything, particularly with Adele.

59:54

She's like, are you looking if she looks over and you're looking at your phone for one second, it's like, oh, look at your stink-eye Molly.

1:00:02

Our research team also says that you're a meditator.

1:00:05

I am, I am. I mean, you know, I, I would say, I don't know if I totally Excel at it the way that other people do.

1:00:14

I have a really, really dear friend named Meredith Arthur, who has a fantastic website that you may or may not have heard of called beautiful Voyager.

1:00:22

And my friend she's lives in Silicon valley and was always kind of part of the, the, the tech world.

1:00:30

And she had debilitating migraines that just could not seem to go away no matter what amount of drugs they put her on.

1:00:39

And finally, she was diagnosed with GAD, generalized anxiety disorder.

1:00:44

Wow. The main, what would you call it?

1:00:46

The main medicine that they give her is meditation and mindfulness, which she embraced wholeheartedly and finally was able to get on top of it.

1:00:56

And then she developed this website just basically to help other people and to help de-stigmatize it.

1:01:02

And it's really wonderful.

1:01:04

I mean, check it out. She, she came up with the idea actually, when we were away on a trip together and we were, it was kind of interesting.

1:01:12

I was doing that, that show. Who do you think you are?

1:01:14

You know, the, the one that, where, you know, you go back and follow your family and all the horror that happened before you got here.

1:01:21

And we were in Sweden in this church with all of these boats where the families would go away.

1:01:27

This isn't like the 17 hundreds in Sweden.

1:01:29

When a family member would come back safely, they would make these beautiful model boats.

1:01:34

And there were so they're all up in the church.

1:01:36

And while she was there looking at all these boats, she said, I'm going to do this website.

1:01:41

I'm going to, I'm going to create this way.

1:01:43

Totally. As a side project, it's not even like her main gig.

1:01:45

It's just simply to help educate people about this, this thing that helped her so much.

1:01:52

And it's really been incredible.

1:01:54

Also, she, she has this thing where when you go on the website, you can pick out a lighthouse and you name your lighthouse.

1:02:02

I think mine is the lighthouse of bossy kangaroos.

1:02:05

And, and what you do is you, you have one thing that helps you to, to get through these panic attacks or anxiety attacks or whatever.

1:02:15

It's just like one thing. So people can go on the website.

1:02:18

It's just one of the features that she has and go and pick out a lighthouse all over the world.

1:02:22

And what's so interesting. I think it really is helpful to know that there are so many other people, particularly, I would say for men and Meredith said this, that, that in her, in her work that she does, she has found that it is so much harder for men to admit, to having anxiety debilitating anxiety, because it's considered, you know, not masculine that, you know, women have been, we've been able to sort of break down and be vulnerable and talk about our feelings.

1:02:56

It's much, much harder for men to do that.

1:02:59

So I think it's a really wonderful tool for, for people too.

1:03:03

So I always recommend it to all my friends, but yes, that is one of the ways that, that she is one of the people that that's definitely encouraged me to meditate because I've seen firsthand the incredible effect.

1:03:20

I mean, she's somebody that I actually remind me a little bit of her.

1:03:23

Oh, you have a very similar laugh.

1:03:25

She has like the most fantastic laugh.

1:03:28

You know, I known her for years.

1:03:31

She was actually my husband's friend first.

1:03:32

And then I kind of, I stole her actually she's friends with both of us, but, you know, but she's really, really become one of my close friends, but her migraines got so bad and they put her on so much medication that I remember going to lunch with her and saying, you know, Meredith like you're different or whatever they have you on.

1:03:53

I don't recognize you and you need to do something like whatever this medication is, you need to like get off of it, try a different one because, because I'm not finding you.

1:04:04

And, and you know, she's a really good friend.

1:04:08

I can say that to her. And also this is something that she's talked about and written about.

1:04:11

So I don't feel like I'm saying something that's, you know, that she would mind, but it really kind of helped her, you know, galvanized her, her sort of mission.

1:04:21

And it turned into this beautiful, this beautiful website.

1:04:25

So I recommend it. Beautiful Voyager.

1:04:27

And what's your practice?

1:04:28

Like my practice is usually listening to an app because I still, I still feel like I kind of, you know, I still sort of need that guidance.

1:04:41

Do you like any particular kind of meditation?

1:04:43

I switch it up.

1:04:46

I've done like a lot of body scans, but then sometimes I just kind of get bored with that, you know?

1:04:52

So I'll just like try different things.

1:04:53

Honestly, the, the best meditation for me that I do, which is probably not strict meditation is I really love to garden.

1:05:03

And when I garden and when I have my hands in the earth and it's just like me sort of listening to the, the wind and the birds and the, you know, whatever I'm doing, I feel like that is, is meditation.

1:05:17

I feel like meditation doesn't have to just be strict sitting in criss cross applesauce with your, you know, eyes closed, you know, whatever.

1:05:26

It's like, I think it's just taking time out from your work or from your family, from, you know, whoever and just taking that time for yourself to, to like recenter and recalibrate.

1:05:39

And that's, that's sort of what meditation is for me.

1:05:44

It has been such a pleasure to talk to you. We really appreciate you showing up for us today.

1:05:48

And we're so excited to share this with our audience.

1:05:51

So thank you so Much. Thank you.

1:05:53

Great to talk to you both.

1:05:57

She talked about active listening and absorbing the pain of her daughter while she was active listening.

1:06:03

I was curious about, she was talking About being careful not to absorb too much pain Exactly.

1:06:07

To hold that sort of boundary.

1:06:09

What you do for me is I listened to you and don't absorb your pain.

1:06:13

Do

1:06:13

you

1:06:13

have

1:06:13

an

1:06:13

experience

1:06:13

with

1:06:13

that

1:06:19

empathetic? Well, I think what she was also talking about is the different style of parenting that has taken hold of, you know, American and Western psychology.

1:06:27

You know, the kind of parenting that our parents were raised with, and many of us had the remnants of what was, what would call it, what was called parent centered psychology, which was like, you know, I kind of jokingly say the, like, I'll tell you when you're hungry, I'll tell you when you're cold.

1:06:43

I'll tell you when you're happy style of parenting.

1:06:45

Like if you're having an emotion that is upsetting to me, take it outside and come home.

1:06:51

When you're in a, You guys, we was boys, boys get outside mostly because my brother and I were fighting, No,

1:07:00

but even what We could find outside, we just couldn't fight inside The

1:07:04

mama's head. But anyway, yeah, I think the child-centered psychology, which I think many people feel like is like helicopter parenting and we've come too far.

1:07:13

And I would agree with some of that is the, like, do I think that because my child doesn't want to be in this restaurant that we all need to leave this restaurant now.

1:07:22

And I've, you know, I, I talk about this.

1:07:25

Like, I've met those people who are like my child, my child, doesn't like the way your house smells, we're going to leave.

1:07:31

Oh, okay.

1:07:33

You Had that happen more than once.

1:07:35

Sorry with The

1:07:38

same person. It was Just one person as a child did not like him.

1:07:41

This was like when they were toddlers. And I was like, Hey, that feels insulting, but that's mine to work on.

1:07:46

But that, that is that, that kind of notion of a child centered psychology, which again works for some people, not, not really my cup of tea, I guess I, I try and fall somewhere in between.

1:07:56

But I think, you know, Molly was talking about an experience that, that many of us have with our kids where we like want to protect them and like don't mess with my kid.

1:08:04

And also if they were in public school or they were, you know, not under your watchful eye, horrible things would happen to them all the time.

1:08:14

Okay. I totally hear that and agree.

1:08:16

I'm going to circle back to the question a little bit and reframe you've described yourself as being a very aware and connected to other people's emotions, To

1:08:25

a detriment, to Myself, to a detriment to yourself.

1:08:28

Do you find that you've, you know, do you have any techniques or, or approaches to sort of being an engaged listener where you're sort of not taking on the pain of the person?

1:08:39

Great question. And it's actually something that I was just texting with my mother about last night, she interacted with a person who's a perfectly nice person.

1:08:47

Like it was nothing about that. Nothing about them not being nice, but the way that they spoke, she did not like her soul did not like meaning she had a reaction, she had a reaction and, you know, give that woman the word trigger.

1:08:59

She will use it. She got triggered by him or, yeah.

1:09:03

And you know, what was interesting is that like, I don't mean to like, sound like a parent, but what I said to her is something that like my therapist would say to me, which is like, maybe you should look at, you know, what it is about this person that is making you unable to separate your reaction to that person from that person.

1:09:23

I don't think she was buying it Bev.

1:09:26

That wasn't no shit. I don't think she was ready, you know, to hear it.

1:09:31

But you know, the techniques that I've found for me are, you know, continuing to keep the focus on myself as much as possible, meaning there's all sorts of times as a parent, as a partner, as a lover where you have to, you know, pick up on all sorts of different cues.

1:09:48

But I really, I I'm trying to reserve that, you know, really for the people who kind of need that from me the most meaning that's not every single person I interact with because that's sort of my tendency as, as an empath, I can, I can like take on all the things.

1:10:05

I mean, you know, just driving around the, you know, the city streets, you there's a million opportunities to have your heart broken, you know?

1:10:12

So the more I kind of, I don't mean focus on myself being, and don't care about other people.

1:10:18

I mean, when you're, you know, pointing one finger at someone else, you're pointing three back at yourself, think about it.

1:10:26

So a lot of times, for me, I've noticed that there's a desire to lose myself in someone else or lose myself in their experience or get all up in their business.

1:10:36

Cause I don't want to think about my own and yeah, those are some hard lessons, but I feel like, you know, I'm still learning them.

1:10:43

I guess I've heard a technique described for people who are, you know, find themselves having like a really hard time, listening to people who are struggling or, you know, who like kind of shut down where they imagine that there's like an energetic baskets fallen off a cliff that they don't exist and they have no problems at all.

1:11:01

And that the sound that we're hearing isn't real, no, it's that there's like an energetic basket in between them and the person.

1:11:06

And I mean, basket it's like almost like a bowl or, or holding space, holding space.

1:11:12

Exactly. You don't put them, but you, you have, instead of what they're Saying,

1:11:17

it's like a Moat.

1:11:18

That's an interesting way to think about it.

1:11:21

I like this. I like the notion of how you described it as a holding basket, because instead of what they're saying, sort of coming at the empath or the person who's listening is sort of like attacking them and them not sort of knowing how to metabolize it.

1:11:32

It instead lives in the space in between the two of you that's between and sort of, it goes in there.

1:11:39

You can interact with it from there, but it sort of gives the person listening a bit of a boundary where they can be active and engaged, but it's not sort of overwhelming them to the point where they have to shut down.

1:11:48

So It's

1:11:50

like an emotional spillover. Yeah.

1:11:52

And I think that using visualization and imagination in that space can help because I think what happens and I can't speak for everyone that when we get overwhelmed by someone else who is suffering or going through something, what we're doing is like, we're feeling it so deeply.

1:12:07

It's kind of hitting us. And we got an empath.

1:12:09

I don't know.

1:12:11

But I think what happens is we get overwhelmed in our, we become uncomfortable with that.

1:12:17

We don't know how to function and therefore we can't be as present with those people as we would like.

1:12:21

And then we could come off as like caring or shut down, but really what's happening is that you're feeling it so deeply that your system is being over.

1:12:28

Right? That sounds like a way that assholes can get away with convincing people that they're not assholes.

1:12:32

I'm just so overwhelmed by what your experience.

1:12:36

I feel you so much that I can't listen anymore or care you're on your own.

1:12:41

Thank you. That's really the flip side of being an empath.

1:12:47

Now you have to go back to every relationship you've ever had where that was the case.

1:12:50

Oh, the people who have said they're empaths, I'd be like, really what's happening is you're not that we like labels here.

1:12:56

We Don't like Labels, but you're a narcissist and you never cared.

1:13:01

Jonathan, do we even asked Anything?

1:13:03

We sure do anything related to the episode, Robin P asks, I am wondering if the anxiety we as modern humans are experiencing is tied to our modern technology.

1:13:15

Has there been an impact on the frequency and intensity of anxiety in society?

1:13:21

And before my answers, I'm just going to say yes, That

1:13:26

was you saying that not, not Robin.

1:13:28

The Question is from Robin P but Yeah.

1:13:31

So I, I definitely don't have, thank you Robin P for your question.

1:13:36

I don't have the data to back it up, but I know that it exists and I've, I've read studies that say absolutely.

1:13:41

Yes, but I think there's like a little bit of a, there's a little nuance, you know, that we can kind of add to that, which is that people are going to be impacted by social media differently.

1:13:51

What's anxiety provoking for many of us around social media is the frequency with which we need to check.

1:13:58

Yeah. And the frequency with which information comes in and the volume of information that comes in those things, no matter what the, I don't care.

1:14:07

If you're looking up only rescue shelters that are in need of animals for you to adopt the volume of information, the speed at which it comes in, that promotes anxiety for, I'd say a lot of people, one of my favorite experiments to do, to see how anxious you are because of your phone slash social media in particular, leave it in the car.

1:14:31

Next time you go somewhere, just leave it in the car.

1:14:35

You're going for a walk. Leave it in the car.

1:14:38

You're going to meet a friend for coffee or at an outdoors restaurant, safe distance with a mask, leave it in the car and see what happens.

1:14:46

Don't plug it in next to your bed at night.

1:14:50

See what happens. Stop using it.

1:14:53

After 9:00 PM. We'll see what happens.

1:14:55

We're not responsible. If your car gets broken into install, don't Use

1:14:58

it until after you've had breakfast in the morning and what's going to happen is you're going to feel very, very strange that's anxiety.

1:15:05

Thank you, Robin P for your question, you two can ask me anything.

1:15:11

Bialik breakdown.com. That's BIA breakdown.com.

1:15:14

If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast hit And

1:15:18

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1:15:22

Please be part of It at Bialik breakdown on Instagram, go to social Media

1:15:26

right now, We provide you get the irony there hits of That

1:15:33

should be our bumper sticker slide, Alex, Miami Alix breakdown with my MBA and Jonathan Cohen, slow hits of dopamine.

1:15:39

Anything else?

1:15:41

I think that's it for today. Molly Ringwald for making my dreams come true from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have.

1:15:47

We'll see you next time.

1:15:50

Alex, break down. She's going to break it down for you.

1:15:52

She's got a neuroscience, PhD or fiction.

1:15:56

She's going to break down the breakdown.

1:15:59

She's going to break it down.

1:16:01

If you read John's early writing, you know, even earlier scripts at sixteen candles, there there was even more stuff that was really kind of inappropriate. And, like, when you read it now, you're sort of like, what the know, what what's what was this person thinking? Hi. I'm Mymbiotic, and welcome to my breakdown. This is a place where we break things down, so you don't have to. It's mine. Be all. Let's break down. She's gonna break it down for you. Because, you know, she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break it down. She's going to break it down. Mymbiolex My NBLX breakdown is supported by lettuce, grow, Growing your own breakdown is supported by lettuce grow. Growing your own food doesn't have to be difficult, and it can also help reduce waste and water which is good for the environment. Let us grow is here to help with a hydroponic garden that can help you grow fruits and Let us grow is here to help with a hydroponic garden that can help you grow fruits and veggies. 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It could be a bad thing, but I meant it as a good I mean, I try so hard, but I never succeed and that's not I mean, I try so hard, but I never succeed. That's not what I meant other than going. Okay. How's it going? Just I'm a hard worker. How are you feeling? Pretty good. How about you? You're a hard worker and you try hard. I care. It's like when people bake with love. You you you live with trying? I live with trying. That's right. We're talking to real icon today. Teen heartthrob. She really was the portrait of Teen angst. You know, not just like perky, sunshine, goodness, or hilarity, which are important things. Mollie Ringwald has agreed to speak to us today. Is there exciting? I mean, I was an enormous fan. I did not have a very successful social kind of life in a lot of the years when her movies, the John Hughes movies in particular, and all of those Brett Pac movies were around and I really felt understood by a lot of aspects of her character, her struggles in the characters she played. And she was this, like, perfectly not perfect. You know, she was a red head. She had freckles. I mean, this woman's skin, it looks like it's this porcelain. Like, she's She's You you've described that you felt a lot of teenage angst. Danks. You talk about them. was very moody. Yeah. You talk about the authors that you would read and the philosophers did you look at her characters and and and feel like that could be a version of you? You know, I I watched her movies when I was younger. Let's say than the age that she was. She's not that much older than me, but she's older enough that, like, when I saw sixteen candles, sixteen seemed like a grown up. You know? I was I was young still. By the time I got to sixteen, I was a very different person than her characters were, you know, at sixteen. I was yeah. I didn't I didn't feel like I had the same confidence. And even now, like, she just seems so she seems really confident and get comfortable in her skin. She started acting really young and we're gonna talk about that and talk about some of her journey. But, yeah, John Hughes movies in particular did really speak to me. They spoke to a, you know, a generation of teens who really hadn't had that voice voiced for us. And he launched the careers of, you know, a lot of actors. I mean, John Cusack was in early, you know, sixteen candles and Anyway, it's just it's very, very exciting to speak to her and talk about some of her mental health practices. And she's the mom of teenagers, and she also has books that she's written, like, she's got a really, really interesting life, but part of her life did involve needing to kind of leave and step out of the spotlight and really good for her mental health to do that, and we'll talk about that as well. Practically everything in Molly Ringwalls Bio, we barely got to because I was busy asking so many other things. She currently stars as Mary Andrews on the CW series Riverdale. She began her her career very, very young. She was in many, many movies. Betsy's wedding, that's a really good one. I love that so much. And sixteen candles, the breakfast club, and pretty in pink, that's sort of the the triumvirate of eighties movies, if if you'd like to catch up. In nineteen ninety two, Molly moved to Paris and acted in some foreign films. I mean, she was in Jean Luc godards King Lear. She must speak French. I didn't even get to ask her I didn't even get to ask her that. She's also been on counties, in Stephen King's the Stand, the Emmy nominated Alison Gurt's story, and the movie Molly and American Girl based on the American Girl series. She's also the author of the National Best Sellers getting the pretty back and when it happens to you. And she also has written in The New York Times Vogue, Salon, Esquire, Allure, Tin House, The New York Times Book Review, and The Guardian, where she has a weekly advice column. She is a jazz She also is a jazz singer. Her father was a jazz musician, and she she is a jazz singer. And in addition, she's known for very prominent New Yorker op ed that she wrote around the Me Too time to speak about some of her own experiences with sexual assault and harassment and just kind of the climate of hostility that that many women experience especially as as young actresses so honored to get to speak to this this person, Molly Ringwold, welcome to our breakdown. Break it down. Hi. I think the last time I saw you, I was I was in the makeup trailer. Oh, that's right. We were at Secret Secret life of the American teenager. I spent I spent more effort than I probably should have for this interview. So the fact that you look great with just a little mascara and, like, sitting on your bed. I don't feel badly at all. I put on under eye cream. I put on a bold lip for my interview with Molly -- Thank you so much for talking to us. Sure. My pleasure. You know, in particular, I feel appropriately humbled and odd by getting to talk to you you know, more intimately, you know, having grown up really with you as an icon, which you were to so so many people. We also share something very odd in common. I too was on the facts of life. I was on my god. I was on the last two episodes of facts of life. This was even before I was in beaches. I had just started acting and they were going to do a spin off of facts of life. So they auditioned like a new class of kids and it was me, it was Juliet Lewis, it was Seth Green, it was like It was so random, and it was going to be Lisa Welchal. She was gonna be the one, like, taking over school. So we did a two part season finale of the facts of life, which then served as a pilot for what would have been a new show. The pilot didn't get picked up. Basically, You dodged that you dodged that bullet. I die exactly, but, you know, at the time, I mean, I had grown up, you know, watching facts of life. I was born in nineteen seventy five. So I grew up with, you know, the best and the worst of of television comedy. I was raised on like silver spoons and threes company and -- Yeah. -- you know, happy days and what else did we watch? You were you're All all of that. Oh, Morgan Shirley. Morgan Shirley. Yes. There we go. Morgan Mindy. But I I didn't start professionally acting till I was eleven, which I'm sure you can understand was considered late for child actors because most child actors do start as kind of coddlers or kids. I know that your dad is a musician. Your dad was also blind. Correct? Correct. And so you you grew up in in I would say an an interesting household that I'm sure had its own challenges, but what was acting like for you? What what did it mean for you when you were little? I started acting as a very, very young person. I I think my first job in community theater was three and a half. I literally, like, todled on stage with my brother in a play called The Grass Harp, which was based on a Truma Capote book. Mhmm. And it was really just kind of an extracurricular activity. The the thing that I was really kind of serious about was singing because my dad was a jazz musician, and that was kind of what I did with him. And, you know, and I really just sort of gravitated towards performing and being on stage. I was really a very shy kid. I mean, I felt painfully shy, but the only place where I didn't feel shy was when I was performing in front of a lot of people. If there was a big audience, then I I felt very safe. And if I was just with people in my living room, I thought I was gonna die. And I was like, I just don't know. I felt, like, protected when I was in front of an audience. But it was really kind of lot of different things that we did. I I had my older brother and sister, and we swam, and we dance, and, you know, it was just kind of my mom was a stay at home mom, and so she was, you know, basically, just shuttling us around from one extracruclar activity to the other. And then the singing kind of took off and I did what a lot of girls did in the in the seventies when Annie came to do the first West Coast production in San Francisco and Los Angeles. I auditioned for it. And then I got apart. I didn't get Annie, but I got one of the orphans. And then my family moved from Sacramento to Los Angeles. And then I was just kind of going. You know, I did Annie for fifteen months and then that led to facts of life. You know, I got an agent And I I feel like, you know, my parents, even though my father was a jazz musician, they didn't really have any experience at all with Hollywood. I don't consider myself a legacy career at all. Like, they just they were total novices. They had no idea. It kind of seemed exciting, I think, to them, to have a kid where everybody is like, wow, we think your kid's as great as we think, you know, you are. And isn't this incredible? You know, they really didn't know anything about what the business was like and how truly dangerous it can be for children and for their development. You know, my mom often said, if I knew then what I know now, I never would have let you be a child act. Mhmm. And I'm kind of one of the success stories. I mean, know, I'm still here. But I think she she saw what a really difficult business it was. Even starting with facts of life, you know, I was on the first season of facts of life, and then they decided that they wanted to narrow it down. There's a bunch of girls, like nine girls or something in the in the because it was supposed to be this, you know, this private school. Right. And then they decided they just wanted to focus on four girls. And originally, the four girls were Lisa Welchill, you know, Blair, two d, Natalie, and Molly. And then they changed their mind and they basically fired me -- Mhmm. -- for no cause. Whatsoever, and then decided that they wanted to bring me on as a semi regular, which I did at first. But, you know, when you're twelve years old and you know, things like that happened to you. It it just it felt so humiliating. You know, you're just really not equipped emotionally to deal with that kind of rejection. At least I wasn't. And it it felt very humiliating and, you know, like I had done something wrong, but I didn't know what I did wrong. And, you know, and my mom said, know, hey, we don't have you don't have to do this anymore. If this really feels bad to you, like, let's just not do it, and then that was it. I think I I did one additional episode or something. know, and and that was just kind of and that wasn't even a particularly bad story, but, you know, these things happen and, you know, they affect you. And I feel like you have to be incredibly strong to do this as a career, you know, emotionally, and, and which is hard because by the same token, in order to be a good actor, you need to be able to access your emotions and go to that dark And I I feel like you have to be incredibly strong to do this as a career, you know, emotionally. And and which is hard because by the same token in order to be a good actor, you need to be able to access your emotions and go to that dark place. And so it's just this this, you know, difficult dichotomy and, you know, it's something that I've tried to understand and balance my entire life, you know, my entire career. I've it's something that I've that I've worked on and struggled with and, you know, to varying degrees of success. My Miami Alec's breakdown is supported by better help online break down the support by better help online therapy. We love therapy, big fans of therapy We love therapy. Big fans of therapy here. It's one of the things I credit with me being able to continue doing this podcast with you, Jonathan, it's good to think about therapy, kind of like It's one of the things I credit with me being able to continue doing this podcast with you, Jonathan. It's good to think about therapy kinda like this. You get your car serviced, right, to prevent bigger ish issues down road. We work out, we visit the doctor to prevent injury and disease in our the road. We we work out. We visit the doctor to prevent injury and disease in our bodies. We see the dentist for our teeth. Going to therapies like that. It's maintenance for your mental and emotional It's maintenance for your mental and emotional wellness. Betterhelp is customized online therapy that has video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. You don't even have to see anyone on You don't even have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It is much more affordable than in person therapy and you can start communicating with your therapist in under forty eight hours. Why invest in everything else, but not your Why invested everything else, but not your mind? This podcast is sponsored by Better help. And my NBLX breakdown listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com slash break that's T E R H E L and Mind Balik's breakdown listeners get ten percent off their first month at better help dot com slash break. That's BETTERHELP dot com slash break. Miami. 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Go to ring dot com forward slash breakdown to get a great deal on a ring alarm security kit today. That's ring dot com forward slash breakdown. Well, and I think, you know, what's important and kind of what you highlighted is, you know, we we have spoken to to many people here who have grown up in the industry and, you know, some have had good experiences and some have had bad experiences and some have had mixture which I think it sounds like you have had, I would say, I've had, you know, a mixture, but so much also depends upon individual variability. Like you said, like, you know, what does it mean to be strong? Right? And, like, like, there's a kind of resilience, you know, for me starting acting quote late at eleven and a half meant that most of the girls in the rooms auditioning with me had already cultivated, like, almost a decade of callous. Meaning, like like callouses. I don't mean being callous I don't mean being callous people. I mean, they had been through the ringer by the time they were like eight. And they had methods to make themselves feel better or to make you feel worse so that they felt better. And the fact is, like, a lot of that was driven by just kind of that that kind of environment you know, like, it lent itself to that. You know, my favorite example is I would, you know, other kids' moms would say to me, like, did you not get enough rest last night? You look a little tired. Like, and that and that and that was like a routine thing that happened. Like, people would try and throw you off your eleven year old game. But I think what's important also when we talk about these things is not to say that, like, oh, this is us talking about what a unique bizarre experience we had as famous people. The notion is that every child, every teenager goes through periods of insecurity, rejection, devastation and there's a full range of of what impact that can have. So I think it's important that, like, to to note that we may have done this. That's right. I'm grouping me and Molly. Molly and I may have done this, you know, in in front of cameras. Or, you know, my chips a hoe example of a terrible audition experience that has scarred me. I mean, I never You don't eat chips a hoe to this day. No. It was just it it was, you know, it was something that I mean, I won't bore you with the story. But when I wanna hear the story, I wanna hear the story. So we were brought in. It was a chipsawoy commercial that I was auditioning for. I was probably twelve. And I there was This is something else that I wanna get into with Molly. You know, the notion of what kids and girls especially should look like. In in the late seventies in the eighties was very different than what it is now. I did not have luck in commercials. It wasn't a place that I excelled. I was quirky. I was strange. Like, I had a weird skill set of, like, I can roller skate, and I also speak yiddish. Like, so strange. Like, I'm just kidding. So I go to this chips away audition and they call you in two by two because that's fun. To have to go in with another human and just hope that you don't already feel less than them, which was like, you know, my full time job was finding ways that I felt less than other people, which is not a healthy thing, that's a separate story. So they call you in to my channel, and I'm called in with this girl. I already don't feel like I belong because no one looks like me. I don't look like anyone. Like, I'm I'm not developed yet. I'm like this weird, scrawny, like, big head, tiny body person. And But people are thinking you need a cookie. People are thinking I need to cook me. So they put on music and the music happened to be Michael Jackson's bad. This is not a statement on whether or not people should listen to Michael Jackson. just want you to pick It's like basically a sound stage, a bunch of dudes, and one one camera, one video camera, and two people two girls on stage. Kids. And they put on Michael Jackson's bad. And the assignment was just like, dance. Like, have a great time. I know. Right. Oh, are they hurting my stomach? Exactly. Already hurting my stomach. Sell here. Ma'am, tell us why that hurts your stomach. Tell us why it hurts your stomach, and then I'll tell you why it hurts. I just put myself there. Like, I I, you know, I've been in that situation and, you know, when I used to go out for commercials. And I just you know, and already, you know, just the dance thing. Even though I took dance lessons, if somebody said just dance, it was like that. It just Yeah. It just fills me with anguish. Go on. Fill me with more anguish. So it's not even that it's open ended. Like, let's just talk about this kind of anxiety. If you like, I had been in dance since I was four years old. I could do a routine I could do a ballet routine. I was like, I'm a tap dancer. Like, I could do all the that's not the issue. It's the free form, like, show us how much you deserve this -- Yeah. -- based on And it's like, sure I could have done a routine, but then it would've looked like I was doing my, like, tap dance routine. And same thing with, like, improv, I'm not an improv person. Like, write me what to say and I'll make it work. Okay, fine. So so the music comes on. Remember there's one video camera, two people on a stage. Me and this other girl. One camera. And it starts. You can tell it starts on a wide shot. A two shot. You can tell by how the framing is working. And as the music goes on and me and this other girl are dancing, I see the camera slowly starts to turn to her. And it's zooming in on her. And I'm then, like, do I keep dancing? Isn't it sad or just stop dancing? That feels sad too because also, like, other people in the room be like, uh-huh, like, whatever whatever my fear was. And also, this is one of those times when you come out of the audition and your mom who's doing her best is like, I'm sure it wasn't that No. It was that bad lady who gave birth to me. It was that It was that bad. And I am, like, the queen of when people are, like, I'm sure they didn't notice. Oh, they noticed. Like, my whole life when people are, like, it wasn't you're gonna be fine. I'm not gonna be fine. So that was the chips of hoi. And I I still have my journal. I was a journal keeper. I still have my journal and I did a very angry drawing when I came home of this other girl. God knows where she is now. She's probably telling this story. My and I got dishing next to me for this, so, like, commercial. No. But I think that you know, whether it's a school play, whether it's a class presentation, I mean, my boys are thirteen and sixteen, and I remember the time my younger one had to do, like, his first presentation in his little homeschool class. Like, every personality is different. You have no idea how any particular and, you know, you're a mother, also, like, when you experience learning about a human's personality as it's developing, you have no idea what's gonna impact them. And the things that you tolerated, that you've written very courageously about, those might be incredibly traumatic for someone else, and they may never want to enter a public sphere again in any way. So can you speak a little bit to kind of, you know, the variability in your experience, say, compared to what you might anticipate for your kids or just kind of what that was like, you know, even pre you know, sixteen candles. Right? This is before we even knew you on a larger scale. Well, it's interesting, you know, I feel like it's it's obviously it's not just, you know, acting that puts these kids into these positions where they they have to figure out how they're going to deal with, how resilient they're going to be, you know, how much grit they're going to have. You know, I have I have twins. I have an almost eighteen year old daughter. My my eldest is going to be eighteen actually tomorrow, which kind of blows my mind. And then I have twelve year old twins. Their boy girl twins. And it's really interesting to watch them because, you know, they've been together, you know, since they were in utero. And watching how and they couldn't be more different. They really are, like, yin yang. And their personalities just are completely different. But, you know, my my twelve year old girl plays soccer. And and she's a really good player, and my husband coached for a couple years. And, you know, she's she's really kind of talented. But this year, there's another coach, and it's it's been really difficult for her, you know, I guess, not having her dad there, her, you know, confidence has been down a little bit. But they do this thing. I hope that nobody none of the parents on the team listen to your podcast, but but I'm gonna tell it anyway because I think it's interesting. They do this thing where they which I I really don't think should be done anymore where they they pick the kids, they pick individual players, and they say, okay, you put your team together. So it Yeah. I know. Immediately, you're like, really, we're still doing that? We're still doing that. You know, like, what is the point other than to make somebody somebody, two girls are always going to feel bad no matter what. And it was I think two weeks in a row or something my my daughter was picked last -- Oh. -- and and felt absolutely terrible. I went to pick her up. And that day, I was a little bit late because I parked too far away. And I could tell as soon as I got there, you know, her face was just, you know, I I we have to leave right now. We have to leave. And I was like, what I was like, what happened? I don't wanna talk it. I don't want to talk about wanna talk about it. And it took a little while for her to talk about it. then she told me what happened, and I was so mad. And immediately, she could see the anger in my face, and and she said, don't talk to anyone. Right. Don't don't call the coach. Don't do that. Don't make it so much worse. Don't do that. And I was like, what do I do? What do I do with this anger? How do you know, And then I'm thinking, okay, should I tell her if she doesn't wanna do it anymore, if she doesn't have to do it? But then what kind of message am I telling her? And so I just kind of like let it go and just try to listen to her. You know? And then this is how she dealt with it. The next practice, she got there an hour and a half early. Like, this is just her. She gets there, like, hour early, there's another team playing, you know, like, two years ahead. They see her. The coaches come over and talk to her and say, hey, if you're still playing soccer, you know, in a couple years, I really want you on my team. You're amazing. So that kind of like gave her confidence. You know, know? And then the next time when they chose her to be the captain to, to pick, you know, her players, she said, and she told me she was going to do then the next time when they chose her to be the captain to to pick, you know, her players, she said and she told me she was gonna do this. She said, I'm gonna pick every kid that's always picked last. And when it was her turn, that's what she did. And when she did it, her her team won. You know, and I thought, wow, this is this is kind of amazing. It was sort of amazing to sort of sit back and just listen to her and kind of I don't know, absorb the pain a little bit because that's kind of what you have to do when you when you list when you're an active listener, you just have to sort of take it and feel it and not feel it more than she does and not less just kind of be present and then and then see where she goes with it. And I thought, and I was kind of happy because I felt like it really showed an incredible amount of resilience that I don't know if that can be And I thought and I was kind of happy because I felt like it really showed an incredible amount of resilience that I don't know if that can be taught. I think I'm kind of III don't know. I don't know if that's just something that can be taught by example or if that's just like in her DNA. If she has something in her DNA that I have because I had to have a great deal of resilience. Anybody who does what we do has to have that kind of resilience because you're constantly no matter who you are, you're always being knocked down, you're always as great as some people think you are, there's always somebody else that seems to have more. And there's always somebody else that they want. And so and you're always going through rejection. And I think you really do have to have something in your core that can handle that and you either have it or you don't. I really don't think that it it can be taught. And and was kind of relieved in a way to see that my daughter seems to have that. And I hope that she can hold on to it. You talked about kind of being an active listener, and I don't think this is just relevant for people who are parents. I think it's really relevant for anyone dealing with this next generation of humans as as they make their way around the planet doing all the things they do you know, when we kind of joke about their wakeness and, you know, how how much they demand of us. But but I do. I mean, I can't help but think back to, you know, when I was my kid's age. Right? And I was actively working in an adult industry. But I think there was a lot more of a notion and, you know, you're couple years ahead of me. There was a lot more of a notion of like, that's just life deal with it. And everything kind of got thrown into that bucket. Like, oh, he made a comment about your breast size and you're a child and he's an adult. Just deal with it. That's the business. You know, or, like, oh, this person, like, stole all your money. Like, oh, sucks when that happens. You know, like, all these things happen and, like, I see now we're we're in a very different consciousness of how we interact with humans, you know, like, not just with actor people, but I know, as I've, you know, kind of reflected and I've, you know, kind of followed your writing specifically, you know, surrounding the period of time when when many people in the world came to know you is that there was this notion that, like, that's just the way it is. And I think it's so interesting not just to think about it from like a sociocultural perspective, but from mental health perspective, to say, there were things and ways that we functioned that we can objectively look back and say, this was not healthy, and this was not right. And, you know, when I talk about not just about you know, what you've written in particular about sixteen candles. But when I started reflecting on how much that movie meant to me, first of all, just because I was I was of that era. I was that girl who was, like, one day someone will see me for who I am. Like, that that really spoke to me, and and it's true. John Hughes tapped into a very specific aspect of teenage hood and in particular kind of the the female, yes, the heteronormative female experience at that time. But to think about some of the things, right, that occurred both in movies, in culture, like, those were things that, like, when I tell my children, the problematic aspects, let's say, of sixteen candles that, you know, need to be discussed. They're like, I'm sorry, what happened in the script? And I'm like, I know it sounds like it sounds so out of plays, but like that was like my favorite movie and was a feminist. Like, but that's how much our perception of what is acceptable can and should change My Imbalance breakdown is supported by Third Love. The holidays can be hectic, stressful, or downright uncomfortable. But this holiday season, give the gift of comfort with third love. 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But I think about it also in terms of our mental health, and I wonder if you kind of have you know, a little bit of you know, I don't wanna make you just, like, repeat the, you know, incredible profound things that you've said about it, but I think also there's been a real paradigm shift you know, in in how we view what's acceptable. Maybe you can speak to that little bit. Yeah. I mean, I I have a lot of feelings about it, a lot of, you know, mixed feelings. I think I I probably could have written a book and in fact probably one day I will write a book about it because that article, even though it was a pretty long article, what about the breakfast club, the one that that was in the New Yorker. There was still even more that I could have said about it. It's confusing because I, like you, love those movies. I mean, they were I mean, first of all, there were not that many movies that were about young women, where the protagonist was a young woman, and they were the one that that they were the ones that were directing the action. They weren't just somebody's girlfriend or, you know, love interest or daughter or whatever. You know? So that made it you know, sort of groundbreaking, you know. And and also they were funny. I mean, they were funny and and light and you know, and really I think reflected a lot of people's feelings about, you know, insecurity and being different. You know, like you. I was not the typical, you know, all American girl, which is really funny because I sort of became that or I, you know, people viewed me as that later, but really, I wasn't. I mean, my sister really was much more that she was blonde hair, blue, white. Like, we don't even look like we're from the same family, but that was really kind of what was in fashion at the time and I was sort of different. I was kind of pale and skinny and, you know, freckles and, you know, the reddish hair and all of that. So anyway, just to say, there there's so much that I that I love and that I'm grateful for. And yet, at the same time, it is a little disturbing to think that that that was just normal, you know, things that happened in in that movie, you know, the the fact that that I mean, the thing that really bothered me the most which I wrote about was the character of Caroline being sort of bartered by her boyfriend who's supposed to be the dreamboat, you know, Jake Ryan, basically barters her when she's drunk and, you know, it's for this young kid to have sex with in in a car and and that that's supposed to be okay. You know, because in the morning when she wakes up and I was just gonna say, remember what happens. That's right. It says, I think I liked it, you know. Right. Like, what? Yeah. You know, even then as a as a I was I think I was fifteen when I No. I was sixteen when I did sixteen candles. You know, there were a lot if you read John's early writing, you know, even earlier scripts of sixteen candles there was even more stuff that was really kind of inappropriate. And, like, when you read it now, you're sort of like, what the you know, what what's what was this person thinking? You know, there was a lot of stuff and sometimes I would well, a lot of times I would I would we had the kind of relationship where I could say, oh, this is IKEA or I don't like this or I don't get this or this doesn't make sense or this kind of cheapens it or this is not my experience as a teenager. And and he would really listen to me and he would cut a lot of stuff. But then there were other things like, the Caroline stuff, like, where, you know, he didn't listen to me, and I did find it IKE. I found it kind of creepy when we're sort of, like, in the shower and we're were oggling her. I was like, I would never do that as a teenager. I mean, I would never, but you know, you win some, you lose some. But what really what I I feel is is that there was just a lot in those movies that that we just kind of accepted because that was our experience. And, you know, and there's a question about whether, you know, films or books or whatever should reflect a society or whether they should change it. I feel like they can do a little bit of both, but John really wasn't out to change anything. He was really about reflecting you know, his particular world. And and his world was very small. You know, he was very privileged. He lived in this little suburb of Chicago. He came from money. It was not integrated at all. I mean, any any LGBTQ stuff was we didn't even have that acronym, you know. And it was never talked about, homosexuality was only talked about it as a as a derogatory term. You know, so so there's all of that. And but but by the same token. I think that he really was writing about a particular time that also happens to have resonated with people outside of that world, which I think is interesting, you know. So I think that there's something in there that connects people and I feel like that that message of of that otherness, it doesn't matter if these characters were white or, you know, upper middle class or whatever. I feel like that feeling of feeling different and feeling like you don't belong speaks to every different socioeconomic background. And so people just kind of use it as an avatar to feel their own feelings. And I feel like that's kind of why those those films still sort of resonate today. And I think also I mean, I'm not surprised how humble you are. But a tremendous amount of that of what drove that narrative really at that time really was this this character that you were and obviously you were the actress, embodying that. But I think I mean, I don't think I'm just speaking for myself. I think the notion also that this was not an overly confident, overly popular, overly kind of saccarin you know, persona that was kind of the leading lady. Right? This was someone who was finding her place. Trying to find where she fit. Like, and I think that really specifically resonated with a lot of people, but something that is so different about the time that you, you know, were acting and and so prominent in people's lives you existed at a time and, I mean, I did to a lesser extent where there was not a publicity machine. Surrounding in particular young young women. And, you know, when I think about, I mean, you were very well protected, at least you know, in my knowledge at that time from press. Meaning, press was not out there for young girls like put on your false lashes and your spanks, it's time to walk the carpet. Like, we existed in a very different world without Internet, meaning there was no social media, And there wasn't even this notion of like a publicity machine churning out young girls to make them look like women. I mean, And I think that's it it's an important part, but it also it gave you this extra special allure, you know. Like, meaning I mean, I would look everywhere to find things on you. Right? Because that's what we did. No. But but there wasn't there wasn't lot of places for that. And so I also, like, I can't help but, like, you know, I look at kind of, like, your story and, like, you've you've had a foreign husband and then you with another form, like, you're just, like, just exotic. Like, you get you get to exist really kind of out of this sort of machine that that young women exist in today. And I'm I'm just curious, like, what was that like, you know, to to have that that kind of fame and notoriety, but still need to develop as a person and still kind of have the opportunity to do that? Like, did you go away? Is that how you found foreign humans? Well, I think that really was choice that I made. And it's true. We didn't have the publicity machine. I mean, we did have a publicist that was just something, you know, that that you have, you have an agent, you have a publicist, you have, you know, maybe you have a manager. So I did have that, but you know, like for instance, when when you went to an award show, I I presented at the Academy Awards couple times and, you know, I picked out my dress. I think I paid for yeah. I paid for my dress, you know. That was just something that you did. At any time I would go to a premier or something, it wasn't like people were you know, giving me the clothes or paying me to wear their clothes, it was like, no. I it's just like and and I think I just preferred it that way. I mean, I feel like my my the way that I dress for better or for worse, you know, represents who I am and how can I really represent who I am if if somebody else is doing it? You know, it just seems very so personal to me, but that's really you know? It just seems very so personal to me, but that's really me. I mean, there were other girls that were my age that I think were putting themselves out there more than I was. I was always a really private person. And I and I kind of knew sort of early on that that it was a survival technique, that if I was out there too much, that there wouldn't be anything left for me And and I and I sort of needed to process things personally, like privately, and I did go away. I think that's really why I ended up in France because I'd been working for so much of my childhood and then my teen years I really kind of I I it was sort of my early twenties. I felt very uninspired in Los Angeles. You know, I I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I I applied to college for the for the first time. Which I got in, I applied to USC, the only college that I applied to, and they accepted me with the caveat that I had to do special math courses. Because it was not my strong suit. And then I went to Paris and I felt so happy there because I felt like because at that time, I mean, now those films have sort of become cult films everywhere. Well, I wouldn't say everywhere, but at least in Europe, And so I felt like I could walk around and not be recognized. And I thought, well, if this feels this good, you know, I don't have a family right now. I mean, I don't have, you know, my own kids. I'm not married. You know, if I ever do this in my life, now is the time to do it. And it was just sort of like I knew that that's what I had to do. And so I really do attribute that choice to my longevity and my and and sort of saving my mental health. I just knew that if I stayed in Los Angeles, that, you know, maybe it would have been better for my career in the short run, but it was just not it wasn't right for me. And I really felt like I needed to develop. I needed to find other things that made me happy other than acting. And I think there's nothing like living somewhere else in a in a different culture completely, you know, where their views on, you know, the wars and, you know, politics and every you know, where everything is just kind of turned on its head where suddenly you're looking at everything through a different lens. And that was I think it's really sort of where I kind of learned to write. It's where I learned to observe and I just learned to kind of like step outside of myself and kind of view the world in in a different way. And and I feel like that that's really what I needed to do. Were you ever in therapy when you were young? I started going to therapy as a teenager because I started to have a lot of depression and anxiety. We didn't even say anxiety that no. It was not a word that I think we it's certainly not a word that we use like we use it now. What did it look like for you? I mean, like, how how did you describe it? You know? Just excessive worry, overthinking, catastrophizing, every movie that I, that I made, I felt like it was going to be a excessive worry -- Mhmm. -- overthinking, catastrophizing, every movie that I that I made, I I felt like it was gonna be a bomb. It had to be a bomb because I'd already been so lucky so early that this had to be you know, it was just sort of like getting in my own way. And it just felt bad. And and I was really very depressive. You know, depression is just runs through my family both sides you know, and it was really bad in my teen years. I think most of it was probably a lot of it was hormonal. I don't feel I'm still depressive, but I'm but nothing like I was in my teens, in my early twenties. I think I think that was really kind of like the worst time. So I started to go to therapy as a teenager, and then I kind of have gone off and on over the years, I'm big, big proponent for, you know, therapy, but also not all So I started to go to therapy as a teenager, and then I kind of have gone off and on over the years. I'm big, big proponent for, you know, therapy, but also not all therapy. Like, I really feel like it it's so much about a relationship. You know, it took me a few times to find somebody that that I really connected with that was, like, you know, had this special sauce, you know, the one that you know, they have to be, you know, intellectual, they have to be, you know, have a sense of humor. It's like dating. You gotta kiss a lot of frogs. It's like any other relationship. You really sort of need to connect in that way. And and I'm really fortunate. I found some really good therapists at different times in my life. Where, you know, somebody's really good when it's been years since you've seen them, but something that they said to you just kind of is so lodged in your brain that it just always comes back as sort of like a guiding principle. And I've been lucky, I've I've had some really good therapists. You know it's a match when you have a full blown panic attack the first time you meet your therapist and suggest that perhaps recall the hospital. That Happened to to you, yes, with my therapist that I've been with for twenty years. Apparently, it's a sign of true vulnerability. I and I'm not talking an anxiety attack. I'm very I'm a real stickler here for the difference between anxiety attacks and panic attacks. We don't like to cross these We do not like across them. By panic attack, I mean, I was I was in and out of both my body and my conscious experience and thought that maybe it was time to go to the spittle. And she's like, no, I think you just need to take a couple deep breaths. We just met. It's okay. And I haven't left her office for twenty years. Anyway, Molly's like, wow, she's really messed up. Anywho? No. I I'm I'm really interested by panic attacks because I don't think I've ever had one. I feel like I've had a lot of anxiety and Yeah. -- look at me. I've been really competitive. Have you had a panic attack? But but I'm in pain too. No. I I really don't think that I've had what what can be actually I mean, from what I know is panic attack, you you feel like you're having Like, we need to call the hospital. Yeah. Or just go there. Yeah. No, I've never had that. I've I've been very, very set, I've had difficulty breathing, you know, mostly brought on by not being able to stop crying. You know, I've had all of those, but I haven't had the, oh my god, I'm my my heart's gonna give out. I haven't had that. You know, I don't I don't love asking this question, but I think it's it's important to because of you know, the the time that you were in the public eye. And I even get asked this and kind of have to think about it for a minute. You know, not every female has body image issues in the industry, but there's definitely a lot of attention, you know, paid to us and our bodies. In ways that we don't pay attention necessarily to boys or men the same way, And part of that is simply the cultural differences and how women are expected to dress and and present. But, you know, I I like to remind people when I was, let's say, on blossom from the time I was four to nineteen. This would have been nineteen eighty nine, you know, to ninety four, ninety five. Banks didn't exist. Like, it wasn't it like, it didn't exist. Meaning, if you didn't like the way your body looked in clothes, you would just wear something else. You know? If if you had If you had curves in places that that dress didn't allow, the answer was size it up or get a different dress. So the the the consciousness I had about my body was so different because that wasn't part of It just wasn't part of, like, where my head was. And I am curious, you know, what that was like or if that was spoken about in your experience. Yeah. Like, I'm just I'm curious. I mean, when I was younger, the way that I dressed, it was just kind of my style. I was like, you know, I really looked up to Diane Keaton. She was kind of like my, you know, fashion, you know, mentor So the way that I dressed, it was kind of, you know, baggy, it was layered, it was, you know, it was it was not you know, I I did wear more form fitting stuff at, you know, as a as an older teenager. But, you know, when you say spanx didn't exist, it's true they didn't exist in this, like, little period of time when we were growing up. But if you think about it bigger, totally existed But if you think about it, be girdles that totally exist. Girdles. Right. I mean, we had, we had this like little glorious moment where we didn't have that, where we freed ourselves and then it just all came back and, you know, I'm, I'm not a fan of I mean, we had we had this, like, little glorious moment where we didn't have that, where we freed ourselves, and then it just all came back. And, you know, I'm I'm not a fan banks. I I don't they just you know, they they don't feel good to me. So, yeah, I I would size up, you know. I have in my wardrobe, I have closed for when I'm ten pounds heavier and ten pounds lighter because I always I'm always gonna go up and down the same ten pounds and I don't wanna just get rid of stuff because know that I'm gonna wanna wear it again and I wanna be able to have that available to me when I when I need it. You know, I don't really freak out too much. You know, I try to stay healthy. I try to stay just because I feel better when I'm closer to my what the weight that I feel like I'm supposed be, I can just feel it. It's like easier for me to exercise and do the stuff that I wanna do when I ten pounds lighter. But I just don't I you know, I kind of made the choice that I'm just not going to be one of those women with those body. Like, I just I feel like I have much more of a a normal, you know, I'm I'm strong, I'm athletic, I'm just I'm happy that everything functions. You know? Like, that's kind of where I'm at now. You know, but I do go through it with my with my daughters. And and also I don't think, yes, it's true that that women are are sort of there's more expected of them. But I really think that it's gone to the men too. I feel like men do feel like they should look a certain way. They should look like these Marvel superheroes. They need to be more buff. They need to, you know, they need to be skinny. Like, it really has kind of, you know, men men anorexia is is totally on the rise in a way that it wasn't before. So I I think that it you know, I worry about all my kids in that way and just try to sort of, you know, model healthy behavior and you know, and again, just kind of be an active listener and kind of check-in with them every so often. But, you know, I I think that the social media is I mean, you studied this, right? I mean, isn't I don't I don't know exactly I've I've read up on you a little bit, but I know that you that you went to school and you studied the brain. Yeah, I studied upset. I mean, obsessive compulsive disorder was the topic of my thesis, but yeah, I was in, in neuroscience and it's funny, I'm often asked about like my opinion as a neuroscientist and mom about screen mean, obsessive compulsive disorder was the topic of my thesis. But, yeah, I was in in neuroscience and it's funny. I'm I'm often asked about, like, my opinion as a neuroscientist and mom about screen time and, like, I'm certain that no one should be on their screens for longer than two hours. Like, I really and of course, I mean, we do these, like, time checks on the weekends, it's horrendous. Like, I I won't even say in case my children ever wanna listen to our podcast. I don't even wanna say how many hours they spend on the week. Like, it's it has taken over it's taken over the family dynamic. It has taken over the mental health of the home. You know, minor yeah. Thirteen and sixteen. And, you know, there have been years of my life where I feel like all I do is fight for time in a way that they used to love to spend it with me. And my younger son's computer, his gaming laptop actually broke and part and, like, that's a whole thing and it's not an interesting story except to me. But we watched a family movie. I can't tell you the last time we did that when I wasn't like, goddamn it. We're gonna enjoy each other company. We fucking love each other. Cause we're a family get down we're a family. Get down here. Goddammit. And like, we we played a board game, and it was like a game that I've been trying to give away because no one plays it. And we had the best time. And I don't mean to sound like that ninety year old mom, but I'm like My thirteen-year-old shakes when he's not on his My thirteen year old shakes when he's not on his tech. Like, you can get him off and engaged in something, but then he'll just circles around to, like, any type of boredom. He starts being, like, twitching. And I'm, like, Yeah. And then he just starts buzzing around the house. Like, you wanna put him on tech because you're like, yo, I gotta sell him down to the drug. We will give you the drug because your withdrawal is so great. mean -- Yeah. -- and and and also, Fred, God love him. That's my younger one. He'll be like, look, I loaded the dishwasher mama. You look great today mama. How was your day mama? And I'm like, I know what you're doing. You wanna go back upstairs. I feel comfortable upstairs and those are my friends waiting for me. Yeah. I feel like a dodo because I'm like, I do look great today. Yeah. I I totally get what you're talking about. It's it's I think it's what I'm going through. I think that's what all parents are going I think it's all parents are going through. You know, we're constantly trying to figure out how to stay on top of the tech. You know, we have a we have a cis which you may or may not have where you actually can just turn it off from your phone, you know, which I wish you a day. I would not survive a he would murder me in my sleep. Well, we we put this in place just because, you know, at first, At first, I was very naive. I gave my older daughter, you know, a phone and all of that before, I think she was really ready because in my mind, I thought this is the future. She's gonna have to learn how to use this responsibly. Totally. You know, Yeah. Well, that was what I was. That's what I thought I was that's what I thought. I was wrong. Yeah. I was completely wrong. But that that was kind of my thinking. They but they they're not able to do that. They cannot They're in children. They can't They can't regulate. They can't regulate I mean Yeah. -- they need our help to regulate all sorts of ups and downs of life, and that's kinda how I see it. It's like they also shouldn't have to deal with, like, the rejection they feel when somebody steals all their things and whatever game roadblocks. Yes. And, like, then, every guy's crying. And then, I'm crying over, like, some kid I've never met and maybe they're an adult. Like, I don't even know who they are. I know it's a very sad know. It's a very sad thing. It's like a very sad lesson that our kids learn when they when they lose this, like, very precious thing that they've been saving up. Oh, and they lose it because they trusted someone. Oh, it's so strange. Trusted I mean, it's heartbreaking, but you're like, Yeah. Okay? So what don't trust anyone there. Don't trust anyone. I have another question that might be sensitive. Yeah. Your child you you have been married. You were divorced. And you were married again. Correct? Yes. Yes. Are your children with your first husband or your second husband? No, my No. My second. All all three are with Peña. Yeah. Yeah. I envy that. Because it is hard being divorced from the person because then have two people who don't live in the same house trying to make decisions about children who live in two houses. It's a special kind of challenge. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I mean, people do it and, you know, people can do it marvelously and I and I like hats off to them. It's like hats off to any single parent because I find I I honestly don't know how I would be able to do it without my husband. I mean, we are complete co-parents in everything and I mean, we are complete co parents and everything. And and I understand Molly. Don't make me so sad. I mean, I know that people, you know, whatever, it happens, people die, people separate, people, you know, that happens and you figure out a way you adapt. You know, and and there's silver linings and all that. I just know that I find parenting so challenging. On on a daily basis, just like with time, with, you know, everything that has to be done. We don't have childcare. Right now, we're just doing it all ourselves. And so, you know, you know, I mean, it's like, it's like being a And so, you know, and you know, I mean, the it's like it's like being a chauffeur. It's like, being a camp counselor. It's like being a psychologist. It's I thought moving past the phase where I was the 24 hour entertainment was going to make things thought moving past the phase where I was the twenty four hour entertainment. Was gonna make things easier. Remember those years where they're just, like, entertaining me all day? Play with me. Play with me. Play with me. Look at me. Are you looking at me? Are you watching me? Yeah. Anyway, Yeah. We we haven't totally gone beyond that phase yet. Maybe maybe with with with Matilda, my eldest, with the other two. It's like you can't take them to do anything, particularly with Adele, she's like, are you looking? If she looks over and you're looking at your phone for one second, it's like, oh, do not look at your The stink eye. Molly, our research team also says that you're a meditator. I am, I I am. am. I mean, you know, I, I would say, I don't know if I totally Excel at it the way that other people I mean, you know, I I would say, I don't know if I totally excel at it the way that other people do. I have a really, really dear friend named Meredith Arthur who has fantastic website that you may or may not have heard of called the Beautiful Voyager. And my friend, she's lives in Silicon Valley and was always kind of part of the tech world. And she had debilitating migraines that just could not seem to go away no matter what amount of drugs they put her on. And finally, she was diagnosed with GAD generalized anxiety disorder. Wow. The main what would you call it? The main medicine that they give her is meditation and mindfulness, which she embraced wholeheartedly and finally was able to get on top of it. And then she developed this website just basically to help other people and to help destigmatize it. And it's really wonderful. I mean, check it out. She she came up with the idea actually when we were away on the trip together, and we were it was kind of interesting. I was doing that that show. Who do you think you are? You know, the the one that we're you know, you go back and follow your family and all the hard that happened before you got here. And we were in Sweden in this church with all of these boats. Where the families would go away. This isn't like the 17 hundreds in This isn't like the seventeen hundreds in Sweden. When a family member would come back safely, they would make these beautiful model boats and they were so they were all up in the church. And while she was there looking at all these boats, she said, I'm gonna do this website. I'm gonna I'm gonna create this way. A totally is a side project. It's not even like her main gig. It's just simply to help educate people about this this thing that helped her so much. And it's really been incredible. Also, she she has this thing where when you go on the website, you can pick out a lighthouse. And you name your lighthouse. think mine is the lighthouse of bossy kangaroos. Mhmm. And and what you do is you you have one thing that helps you to to get through these panic attacks or anxiety attacks or whatever. Just like one thing. So people can go on the website. It's just one of features she has and go and pick out a lighthouse all over the world. And what's so interesting, I think it really is helpful to know that there are so many other people particularly, I would say, for men. And Meredith said this that that in her in her work that she does, she has found that it is so much harder for men to admit to having anxiety, debilitating anxiety because it's considered, you know, not masculine, that, you know, women have been we've been able to sort of break down and be vulnerable and talk about our feelings, it's much, much harder for men to do that. So I think it's a really wonderful tool for for people too. So I I always recommend it to to all my friends. But yes, that is one of the ways that she is one of the people that's definitely encouraged me to meditate. Because I've seen, you know, firsthand the incredible effect. I mean, she's somebody that I actually remind me a little bit of her. You have a very similar laugh. She has, like, the most fantastic laugh. You know, I I known her for years. She was actually my husband's friend She was actually my husband's friend first, and then I I kind of I stole her. Actually, she's friends with both of us. But, you know, but she's really really become one of my close friends. But her migraines got so bad and they put her on so much medication that I remember going to lunch with her and saying, you know, Meredith, like, you're different. Whatever they have you on, I don't recognize you. And you need to do something like whatever this medication is, you need to, like, get off of it, try a different one because because I'm not finding you. And and, you know, she's a really good friend. I can say that to her. And also, this is something that she's talked about and written about, so I don't feel like I'm saying something that's, you know, that she would mind. But it really kind of helped her, you know, galvanize her her sort of mission, and it turned into this beautiful this beautiful website. So I recommend it, beautiful Voyager. And what's your practice like? My practice is usually listening to an app because I still I still feel like I kind of, you know, I still sort of need that guidance. Do you like any particular kind of meditation? I switch it up. I've done, like, a lot of body scans, but then sometimes I just kinda get bored with that, you know. So I'll just, like, try different things. Honestly, the the best meditation for me that I do, which is probably not strict meditation, is I really love to garden and when I garden and when I have my hands in the earth and it's just like me sort of listening to the wind and the birds and the, you know, whatever I'm doing, I feel like that is is meditation. I feel like meditation doesn't have to just be strict sitting in criss cross applesauce with your, you know, eyes closed, you know, whatever. It's like, I think it's just taking time out from your work or from your family, from, you know, whoever and just taking that time for yourself to, to like recenter and It's like I think it's just taking time out from your work or from your family, from, you know, whoever, and and just taking that time for yourself to to, like, re center and recalibrate. And that's that's sort of what meditation is for me. Molly ring all that has been such a pleasure to talk to you. We really appreciate you showing up for us We really appreciate you showing up for us today, and we're so excited to share this with our audience. So thank you so much. Thank you. Great to talk to you both. She talked about active listening and absorbing the pain of her daughter while she was active about active listening and absorbing the pain of her daughter while she was active listening. I was curious about She was talking about being careful not to absorb too much pain. Exactly. To hold that sort of boundary. What you do for me? Is I listen to you and don't absorb your pain? Do you have an experience with that Well, I think what she an empathetic person? Well, I think what she was also talking about is the different style of parenting that has taken hold of, you know, American and Western psychology. You know, the kind of parenting that our parents were raised with and many of us had the remnants of was what would call what was called parent centered psychology. Mhmm. Which was like, you know, I kind of jokingly say the, like, I'll tell you when you're hungry. I'll tell you when you're cold. I'll tell you when you're happy style of parenting. Like, if you're having an emotion that is upsetting to me, take it outside. Come home when you're at a lot of A lot of You guys, we was boys, boys get outside mostly because my brother and I were fighting, guys boys boys get outside. Mostly because my brother and I were fighting. Right. No. But even But we could fight outside. We just couldn't fight inside. It's it hurts The mama's mama's head. But anyway, yeah, I think the child centered psychology, which I think many people feel like is like helicopter parenting, and we've come too far. And and I would agree with some of that. Is the, like, do I think that because my child doesn't wanna be in this restaurant that we all need to leave this restaurant? No. And I've, you know, I I talk about this. Like, I've met those people who are like, my child my child doesn't like the way your house smells, we're gonna leave. Oh, okay. You that happen? More than once. What was sorry. What's wrong with the smell of your hush? The same person. Oh, okay. It was just one person. This is a child did not like him. This is like when they were toddlers. And I was like, a, that feels insulting, but that's mine to work on. But that that is that that kind of notion of a child centered psychology, which again works for some people, not not really my cup of tea. I guess I I try and fall somewhere in between, but I think, you know, Molly was talking about an experience that many of us have with our kids where we, like, wanna protect them and, like, don't mess with my kid. And also, if they were in public school or if they were, you know, not under your watchful eye, horrible things would happen to them all that A lot. Okay. I I totally hear that and agree. I'm gonna circle back to the question a little bit and reframe. You've described yourself as being very aware and connected to other people's emotions. To a to a detriment to myself. To detriment yourself. Do you find that you've do you have any techniques or or approaches to sort of being an engaged listener where you're sort of not taking on the pain of the person? It's a great question and it's actually something that I was just texting with my mother about last night. She interacted with a person who's perfectly nice person. Like it was nothing about it was nothing about that. Nothing about them not being nice. But the way that they spoke, she did not like, her soul did not like. Meaning -- Yeah. Shad reaction. She had a reaction and, you know, give that woman the word trigger. She will use it. She got triggered by him. Or yeah. And, you know, what was interesting is that, like, I don't mean to, like, sound like a parent But what I said to her is something that my therapist would say to me, which is like, maybe you should look at, you know, what it is about this person that is making you unable to separate your reaction to that person from that person. Yeah. I don't think she was buying it. Bev. Yeah. Bev wasn't having No. She I don't think she was ready, you know, to to hear it. But, you know, the techniques that I've found for me are, you know, continuing to keep the focus on myself as much as possible. Meaning, there's all sorts of times as a parent, as a partner, as a lover where you have to, you know, pick up on all sorts of different cues. But I really I I'm trying to reserve that. You know, really for the people who kind of need that from me the most. Meaning that's not every single person I interact with because that's sort of my tendency as as an empath? I can. I can, like, take on all the things. I mean, you know, just driving around know, the city streets. There's a million opportunities to have your heart broken, you know. So the more I kind of don't mean focus on myself, meaning don't care about other people. I mean, when you're, you know, pointing one finger at someone else, you're pointing three back at yourself. Think about it. So a a lot of times for me, I've noticed that there's a desire to lose myself in someone else or lose myself in their experience or get all up in their business. Cause I don't want to think about my own and yeah, those are some hard lessons, but I feel like, you know, I'm still learning I don't wanna think about my own. And, yeah, those are some hard lessons, but I feel like, you know, I'm still learning them, I guess. I've heard a technique described for people who are, you know, find themselves having like a really hard time, listening to people who are struggling or, you know, who like kind of shut down where they imagine that there's like an energetic baskets fallen off a cliff that they don't exist and they have no problems at heard a technique described for people who are, you know, find themselves having, like, really hard time listening to people who are struggling or who, like, kind of shut down where they imagine that there's, like, an energetic person has fallen off a cliff. They don't exist and they have no problems at all and that the sound they're hearing isn't real. No. It's that there's, like, an energetic basket in between them and the person. What do you mean basket? It's, like, almost like a bowl or or something. Holding space. Holding space. Exactly. I'm in that basket. You don't put them, but you you have instead of what they're saying. Oh, it's like a moat. That's an interesting way to think about it. I like this I like the notion of how you described it as a holding basket because instead of what they're saying sort of coming at the empath or the person who's listening is sort of like attacking them and them not sort of knowing how to metabolize it. It instead lives in the space in between the two of you. That's Yeah. Between And sort of it goes in there. You can interact with it from there, but it sort of gives the person listening a bit of a boundary where they can be active and engaged, but it's not sort of overwhelming them to the point where they have to shut down. So It's a little it's like emotional spillover. Yeah. And I think that Using visualization and imagination in that space can help because I think what happens and I I can't speak for everyone that when we get overwhelmed by someone else, who is suffering or going through something, what we're doing is, like, we're feeling it so deeply. It's kind of hitting us. And we got an and we got an It's bev an empath. I I don't know. But I think what happens is we get overwhelmed and are we become uncomfortable with that. We don't know how to function and therefore we can't be as present with those people as we would We don't know how to function. Right. And then, therefore, we can't be as present with those people as we would like. And then we could come off as, like, uncaring or shut down. But really, what's happening is that you're feeling it so deeply that -- Right. -- your system is being overrun. That sounds like a way that assholes could get away with convincing people that they're not heckles. I'm just so old about by what you're experiencing. I I feel you so much that I can't listen anymore or care You're on your own. Thank you. That's really the flip side of being amazing. Now Now you have to go back to every relationship you've ever had where that was the have to go back to every relationship you've ever had where that was the people who have said their empaths. I'd be like, really, what's happening is your not that we like labels here. That's we don't like labels. But you're a narcissist and you never cared. Jonathan, do we even ask why I'm anything? We sure do. Ask why I'm anything. Yeah. Related to the episode, Robin Pea asks, I am wondering if the anxiety we as modern humans are experiencing is tied to our modern technology has there been an impact on the frequency and intensity of anxiety in society? And before my answers, I'm just gonna say yes. That was you saying that, not not Robin. The Question is from Robin P but is from Robin Pete, but the answer is from Jonathan. Yeah. So I I definitely don't have thank you Robin Pee for your question. don't have the data to back it up, but I know that it exists. And I've I've read studies that say absolutely yes, but I think there's like a little bit of there's a little nuance, you know, that we can kinda add to that, which is that people are gonna be impacted by social media differently. What's anxiety provoking for many of us around social media is the frequency with which we need to check. Yeah. And the frequency with which information comes in and the volume of information that comes in. Those things no matter what the I don't care. If you're looking up only rescue shelters that are in need of animals for you to adopt the volume of information, the speed at which it comes in, that promotes anxiety for, I'd say a lot of people, one of my favorite experiments to do, to see how anxious you are because of your phone slash social media in particular, leave it in the if you're looking up only rescue shelters that are in need of animals for you to adopt. The volume of information, the speed at which it comes in, that promotes anxiety for I I'd say a lot of people. One of my favorite experiments to do, to see how anxious you are because of your phone slash social media in particular, leave it in the car. Next time you go somewhere. Just leave it in the car. You're going for a walk, leave it in the car. You're going to meet a friend for coffee or at a outdoors restaurant, safe distance with a mask, leave it in the car and see what happens. Don't plug it in next to your bed at night. See what happens. Stop using it. After 9:00 after nine PM and see what happens. We're not responsible if your card broken into install. Don't use it until after you've had breakfast in the morning. And what's gonna happen is you're gonna feel very very strange. That's anxiety. Thank you, Robin Peake, for your question. You too can ask me anything. At bialek breakdown dot com, that's BIA -- LIK. breakdown dot com. If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, hit the subscribe button. Also, we're growing our Instagram page in leaps and bounds. Please be part of it. Epileic breakdown on Instagram. Go to social media right now. We provide you Did you get the irony there? Hits of dopamine. But just That should be our bumper sticker. Slaving Alex. Myambiague's breakdown. With myambiague and Jonathan Cohen, slow hits of dopamine. Anything else? I think that's it for today. Molly Ringwald for making my dreams come true. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time. It's mine. Be all. Let's break down. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience BHD or two on And now she's gonna break it down. She's gonna break it down. She's gonna break it down.