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0:46

What's up everybody? Welcome. Back to

0:48

mail her Podcast Episode Two Hundred

0:50

and Ninety Hill. Now Today we're

0:52

going to be looking at a

0:54

case that. Took. Place back in

0:57

the nineties and it is super

0:59

super strange. It's one that I

1:01

am very surprised doesn't have that

1:03

much coverage. There's really. Early anything

1:05

out there and a lot of the coverage on it

1:07

is. I'd. Say pretty incomplete Really

1:09

doesn't tell you the entire story

1:11

of Michelle's life and everything that

1:13

she went through. Ah, Which

1:16

to be fair? I. Think

1:18

the biggest reason it didn't get

1:20

like national coverage is because. Her.

1:23

Death was ruled. Accidental.

1:27

And it really wasn't looked into beyond not

1:29

based on the circumstances of a where she

1:31

was found in how she was found. Our.

1:34

Which will obviously get into it involves. Ah,

1:36

Sharks or shark attack he actually. but also

1:38

fairly recently. I mean, I guess two thousand

1:41

nine teens or early, that reason. or two

1:43

thousand eighteen? And. Her.

1:46

Sister. Published. An article

1:48

that had a ton of information that

1:50

was never known prior. Ah, that kind

1:53

of gives more. An. Inside

1:55

look into the family and what was going

1:57

on with the Michelle Vonn. Answer is who

1:59

were time. Now her earlier parts

2:01

of her life where we're pretty

2:03

rough and and pretty traumatic. Air,

2:06

so it provides lot more insight into

2:08

possibly what kind of happened to her

2:10

because she mysteriously. Died.

2:12

And she was found floating in the

2:14

ocean arm as or get into and.

2:17

Hence, Why Shark attack? Is.

2:19

Brought into this case. but there's so

2:21

much. Uncertainty.

2:24

With. The. Events: There's a time

2:26

period of of a few hours where we

2:28

don't really know what was going on with

2:30

her. She spoke at a concert Denilson she's

2:32

at Sunset Clear. I mean, there's so many

2:35

different things are without getting too far into

2:37

it that. Are makes this

2:39

case very mysterious. Yeah yeah. And

2:41

it's one night. I don't know. Will.

2:43

Ever be solved? I don't have. we

2:45

will ever have. The answer?

2:48

I mean a lot of time has passed. And

2:50

there's just so many unusual circumstances. Here.

2:53

And. Sites. I do

2:55

think it's definitely worth talking about.

2:57

It has michelle story alone. On

3:00

brings up a lot of important topics

3:02

that said be discussed. Are

3:05

very horrific topics? Yeah, I'm unfortunately. Yeah,

3:07

Certainly want to issue a trigger warning

3:09

on this one. So yeah it's it's

3:11

kind a while as a lot of

3:13

know that the the a lot of

3:15

the covers just focus on. The.

3:18

Shark Attack. Story.

3:20

Theory and is kind of. What?

3:23

I guess has brought that case. Into.

3:26

Today, but. Michelle. Sister?

3:28

Really? Added so much more

3:31

context. Around. Other

3:33

theories and other possibilities. Are.

3:35

When it comes to Michelle's death. but. Yeah

3:38

it it's a heavy one. So just for warning

3:40

there is a lot of things that some people

3:42

could find triggering so just one put out there

3:44

will before he going to get into that pair

3:47

of the episode will will remind you in case

3:49

it's something you don't want hear to this very

3:51

upsetting. Ah, But it's nevertheless

3:53

important case ah, for the sake

3:56

of remembering Miss Michelle and who

3:58

she was so. That we

4:00

dive into it. Typically when we start

4:02

off the case with the background of

4:04

the victim. This. Particular case,

4:07

the details. At.

4:09

The time you know prior to the

4:11

article that her sister came out with,

4:14

we really didn't know a whole lot

4:16

about Michelle's background, her story, And.

4:19

We didn't know that until far later on.

4:21

So we're gonna take you through the case

4:23

in more of a chronological I mean we're

4:25

always chronological, but more of a. Ah

4:27

how it's been reported and it it'll make

4:29

more sense later eyes and yeah it'll make

4:31

a lot more sense or later on so

4:33

don't you know? Just want to make sure

4:35

your knowledge of the seems like very light

4:37

on the on the background of information but

4:39

there's a lot more to that later on

4:41

or in this episode. So just want to

4:43

give you a heads up their summer. Siobhan

4:45

Answer was born on August second,

4:47

nineteen Sixty Eight till her parents

4:50

Earnest and Bernadette. She grew up

4:52

in San Carlos. California which is

4:54

a city a little over twenty miles

4:56

south of San Francisco to. Was raised

4:58

in a strict Roman Catholic home along

5:01

with four other sisters person Teresa, Murray

5:03

and Andrea I'm Michelle is incredibly close

5:05

to her sister's especially Carson who actually

5:07

with on a year younger than her

5:10

and yeah the two of them were

5:12

buried bonded. Michelle was involved in the

5:14

church in her youth and was working

5:16

at the local rectory which I had

5:19

never heard of that we found out

5:21

that is it is a housing. Units

5:24

for. On the Minister

5:26

that priests the As with him or

5:28

her that are finally with Oakley yes

5:30

as he would work there. When.

5:33

Shifting. Does happen as pretty typical

5:35

thing and in that extends beyond the Catholic

5:38

church is why New signing. Some.

5:40

Other churches that we went to, where is? That was the case

5:42

and I was like oh. Like. There's like

5:44

a little house next door. Arm

5:46

for the pastor and stuff so on and or semi

5:48

they need to live there but. When. My

5:51

elder lot they're dedicated the church for life

5:53

like yeah, I guess that's even more so.

5:55

It. Has. Autism rates of

5:57

real. Wanted summit

5:59

specially. Comic has. Priests.

6:01

Don't have families, right? right?

6:03

So they don't need like a whole

6:05

house. Or with a bunch of

6:07

bedrooms and stuff they they usually are. I mean

6:09

they are. Single. So.

6:12

That. As Michelle got older, she began to

6:14

rebel against her parents. I'm she graduated

6:16

from Bell months pry they all girls

6:19

Catholic high school pretty intense and she

6:21

left for St. Mary's College of California

6:23

and would only occasionally visit her parents

6:25

at that point. Financially, seem is south

6:27

to. The San Diego coast and myself

6:29

very interested me. Arts: She had a

6:31

passion for music. She liked to fall

6:33

all of her favorite bands on tour

6:35

and enjoy the freedom that she felt.

6:37

Living on the Southern California coast shop

6:40

and fled from job to job homes

6:42

a home that those who knew her

6:44

knew that this was not a problem

6:46

for her. She was very easy going,

6:48

free spirited. She spent a lot of

6:50

time in the Ocean Beach area as

6:52

he was. He. Now says.

6:55

Kind of living a more relaxed lifestyle

6:57

and enjoying all the various experiences that

6:59

life had to offer. And.

7:01

In April of Nine Ninety. Four Michelle was twenty

7:04

five years old and preparing to attend

7:06

a Pink Floyd concert with her roommate

7:08

Cocoa Campbell. The concert was being held

7:10

at the Jack Murphy Stadium and San

7:12

Diego and the To. We're thrilled about

7:14

seeing this obviously iconic and. But.

7:16

They didn't have any tickets to the south so

7:19

it isn't known for sure. Whether or not they.

7:21

Were. Hit planning to like sneak in.

7:23

or maybe they were gonna try to score

7:25

tickets outside from a scalper. Something like that,

7:27

We're not really sure. But.

7:30

They weren't able to go. In

7:32

the end the concert began. They restocked

7:34

side the venue ticket and at eight

7:36

pm. Pogo. Ended up dropping

7:38

missile asked at the seats. now see

7:40

says that Miss all. Seem. To

7:42

be in a strange mood is and. That.

7:45

She said she wasn't ready. To

7:47

go home. So. When Cocoa drop

7:49

Michelle off, she was carrying a purse

7:51

and wearing a green trench coat and

7:53

this was the last time Poco whatever.

7:56

See Michelle? The next day. April

7:58

Fifteenth, Nine to Ninety Four a group. Surfers

8:00

showed up at Sunset Cliffs in San

8:02

Diego to spend the day surfing of

8:04

course, It. Was a brisk afternoon and

8:06

the young. Men were enjoying the waves.

8:08

When twenty year old stay there

8:10

Korea I've noticed a swarm of

8:12

seagulls. Hartstein. An object floating in

8:15

a bad as seek help. Had. An

8:17

area called South Garbage. Now this

8:19

area got it's name because it's

8:21

a nearby riptide that often spits

8:23

out random frosh into the area.

8:26

David hollered at a nearby surfer

8:28

to accompany him to the site

8:30

and his name was Williams. Ah,

8:32

Storm and. He. Was closer to

8:34

the area so he paddled out there

8:36

first and as he's approaching the birds

8:38

fly away. Any quickly notices that

8:40

he's looking at the body of

8:43

a battered. And sadly deceased

8:45

young woman. The. Body was nude

8:47

wearing only a brass. Bracelet and rings.

8:49

she had a butterfly tattoo on

8:51

her shoulder and long brown hair.

8:54

Williams. Them back to the sword. It's healthy that

8:56

way. Saw but as a swell moved into the area,

8:59

the body was listed by the swell and flipped over

9:01

in the water. And. David saw the

9:03

body for himself. And the

9:05

next hour is a set of a blur

9:07

to. Those on the beach. The first

9:10

call came into the lifeguard station

9:12

around three eighteen Pm and lifeguards

9:14

were informed that near Point Loma.

9:16

There were a couple of surfers who. Appeared

9:18

to be holding a lifeless body.

9:21

Six. Lifeguards immediately left for the scene but

9:23

for of the men were unable to find

9:25

the location of the body from the beach.

9:27

To. Lifeguards, Bruce Robinson and Jail

9:29

Wade had been stationed at. A

9:32

low third.in Mission Beach they used a

9:34

rescue vessel to search for the body

9:36

from the water where they did and

9:38

finding it. Around three me a

9:40

pm. Shortly. After a second

9:42

rescue vessel arrived to help retrieve the

9:45

body and it was transported back to

9:47

the lifeguards headquarters zoc around four pm

9:49

south. Since there was massive trauma involved,

9:51

the medical examiner obviously was. Immediately

9:54

notified Medical Examiner Robert

9:56

Angle. Quickly. made his way

9:58

to lifeguard station where he noted large

10:00

tearing type wounds with missing

10:02

tissue. Robert stated that the body

10:04

did not appear to have been in the water for long

10:07

and marked the cause of death as unknown. But

10:10

he and the lifeguards all believed that this

10:12

person was a victim of a shark attack,

10:15

which based off of where

10:17

she's found, the state that her body's

10:19

in, the state that, you know,

10:21

what the actual injuries look like at

10:23

first glance, I can definitely

10:26

see how they're

10:28

coming to this conclusion. Whether

10:32

or not that's where you should stop, that's

10:34

another question. But tearing type wounds,

10:36

I think indicates obviously marine life

10:39

has impacted the state of this body. So

10:42

I get, I get why they're

10:44

going this direction. On the following

10:46

day, April 16th, 1994, San Diego

10:48

medical examiner, Brian Blackburn completed an

10:51

official autopsy. He found that

10:53

in addition to the missing large pieces

10:55

of flesh, the woman was missing her

10:57

right leg from the mid thigh. Also

11:00

her neck was broken and the examiner said

11:02

the injury was quote, as if she'd been

11:04

in a car wreck. Her face was covered

11:06

in bruises, scrapes and contusions. She

11:08

had broken ribs and a broken pelvis

11:10

that was pulled apart. The body's

11:13

arms and back were described as quote

11:15

shredded. Lastly, the examiner found sand in

11:17

the body's mouth, throat, lungs and stomach

11:19

as if they had taken a large

11:21

gasping breath while at the bottom of

11:23

the ocean floor. Medical

11:25

examiner, Brian Blackburn completed his report and

11:27

determined based on the wounds, internal

11:29

bleeding and evidence of drowning that this

11:32

person did in fact die as a

11:34

result of an attack by

11:36

a great white shark. Also

11:38

not just saying this was a shark attack,

11:40

but also claiming it was a great white

11:42

shark, a specific shark that did this the

11:44

same evening as the official autopsy. Local news

11:46

ran a story of an unidentified woman with

11:48

a butterfly tattoo on her shoulder and long

11:50

brown hair. In Ocean Beach, a

11:53

woman named Denise Knox was watching the report with

11:55

her husband when they heard the news

11:57

about this woman that they were trying to identify. and

12:00

she knew she needed to call the

12:02

police immediately because on Friday, one of

12:04

Denise's employees didn't show up to her

12:06

shift at the Cabrillo Stationary and Office

12:08

Supply Store. And again, the following

12:11

day, this same employee never

12:13

showed up. Denise knew that her

12:15

employee had a butterfly tattoo on her shoulder, so

12:17

she called the police hoping there was another explanation

12:20

for why her employee hadn't shown up to work. She

12:22

was forwarded to the medical examiner's office where she spoke

12:25

with the coroner, and for half an

12:27

hour, the woman described her employee in great detail. She

12:29

told the coroner that her employee was a

12:32

hippie and that she didn't shave her underarms

12:34

or her legs. The coroner

12:36

asked Denise to drive down to the examiner's office

12:38

as quickly as she could. And

12:40

just after midnight on Sunday, April 17th, Denise

12:43

was shown a Polaroid photo of the face of

12:45

the victim. And sadly, this is when

12:47

it was confirmed to be 25-year-old

12:50

Michelle Von Emster. God, that

12:52

would be so, so

12:54

terrifying. And forever, that

12:56

image would forever say in your

12:58

brain. Having to identify someone that

13:00

you care about. And kudos to

13:02

her to even reaching out and

13:05

helping them identify this woman. I

13:07

mean, because it seems like who knows

13:09

how long it would have been before the

13:12

family was notified or the family got word

13:15

that Michelle had

13:17

passed. But according to the medical examiner, Brian

13:19

Blackborn, the timeline of events leading to Michelle's

13:21

death were very simple in his mind. According

13:24

to him, April 14th at 8 p.m., Michelle's last

13:26

seen alive, April 15th at 12 a.m., Michelle

13:29

decided to go skinny dipping in the ocean when

13:31

she was then attacked by a great white shark.

13:33

On April 15th at 3.20 p.m., her

13:36

body is found near the sunset cliffs. And

13:38

that is the end of the timeline. Watch. There's

13:41

a lot of holes there. After

13:43

Brian officially reported Michelle's death as accidental,

13:46

police just moved on from the case and

13:48

can't really fault them here because again, they

13:50

are going off of the medical examiner, the

13:52

coroner, what they found. And

13:56

based on everything that they knew at the time,

14:00

Seems like. This. Story lines

14:02

up that maybe she did go take a

14:04

swim and. Ah, Was attacked by

14:06

a shark. Bite. Ah,

14:10

it's it's hard because. You. Know

14:12

like we heard in last week's episode

14:14

with the A Cherokee. Ah Nations

14:16

authorities are like we assume everything is a

14:18

murder and we rule that out before we

14:20

move onto anything else. But again I think

14:23

based on the wounds you been in the

14:25

water. It. Does make sense

14:27

to go destruction of first to mean at. Surface.

14:30

Value? it's it does seem that way. You

14:32

know when I when I first started looking

14:35

to this case may. My mind

14:37

was only shark attack. But. It's

14:39

in L E. Don't know the rest of

14:41

the information, but it's It's so clearly seems

14:43

that way at first true and as will

14:46

find out. These. Guys don't

14:48

really know that much about sharks in the

14:50

first place, which is pretty important when you're

14:52

when you're attributing somebody his death to a

14:55

shark attack. So.

14:59

Despite. Mister. Your Medical

15:01

Examiner Brian's confidence in his

15:03

findings. there's definitely a loss.

15:05

Suspicion almost immediately. Among

15:07

those who study shark attacks even other

15:10

medical exam restart the descriptions of Michelle's

15:12

injuries in a climax or to a

15:14

great white shark attacks. So. They're

15:16

obviously gonna be like. Okay, it's pretty

15:18

specific to be that what? This is a great

15:20

white shark that did this and so. California

15:23

has lot of coastline. There's probably a

15:25

lot of medical examiners that have experience

15:27

dealing with. Great. White Shark attacks

15:29

among other types of shark attacks and

15:31

one of the details themselves Autopsy was

15:34

a description of the exposed bone where

15:36

her leg was missing. And.

15:38

The bone was described as sharp

15:40

and pointed. And this detail

15:43

set off alarm bells in the minds of

15:45

shark attack experts. and as a investigated

15:47

the case further they found additional details that

15:49

really just in add up to them. There.

15:52

Have been zero evidence of great white shark

15:54

been within fifty miles of that location to

15:56

time Michelle suppose attack. I don't

15:58

know exactly what the truck. Systems were like at

16:01

this time but I know I in the past

16:03

had the app that tracks the great white sharks.

16:05

A lot of them are tagged and monitored. Arm

16:08

and studied are by scientists. And.

16:11

So I don't know exactly how. They.

16:13

Came to this conclusion but it was

16:15

something that they brought up. And.

16:18

They also said that the wounded seem

16:20

typical to those who studied these types

16:22

of attacks. But. Brian He's like

16:24

okay, you guys are questioning me. But.

16:27

No, No no, I'm the one saw the body on

16:29

the one who did the autopsy. This.

16:31

These are my findings. And. He even

16:33

said that he reached out to the marine

16:36

biologists at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography and

16:38

San Diego. Ah a major

16:40

institutions in marine biology and

16:42

research. And. They even agree

16:44

that a great white shark had likely

16:46

attacked michelle. So. We

16:49

think. At. One point brian state

16:51

a quote. If. It wasn't a white

16:53

shark then what was it? Which.

16:55

Inspires a ton of confidence, Ah,

16:58

In. The citizens I'm sure. To.

17:01

Hurt their medical examiner. Say.

17:03

This said, else who studies shark

17:05

attacks know that there are very

17:07

clear signs that indicate a shark

17:09

attack end of the type of

17:11

shark attack. For. A great light

17:13

Therapy Things to know. Great. White

17:15

seasonally attack their prey by giving a

17:18

sudden i am at a high speed

17:20

which is terrifying. think about he starts

17:22

to travel up to thirty. Five miles

17:24

per. Hour in short bursts and

17:27

absolutely blew. my yeah. And they

17:29

also tend to attack from beneath.

17:31

like deep below you when you

17:33

were going. Terrified me. You know

17:35

they'll They'll kind of swim around

17:38

built they'll come my check. Check

17:40

out what's going on in the nail, just go

17:42

down real deep. Where. You won't see them anymore

17:44

and then they'll just. Like. A torpedo,

17:48

Or swim How? Thirty miles per hour? And then.

17:51

Leap. Out Of the water. While.

17:53

So. Ramming. into are taking a

17:56

bite out of whatever or if he ever seen i

17:58

mean shark week love that show there's a lot a

18:00

lot of great footage of great white

18:02

sharks and how they interact and even

18:04

ramming cages. There's one

18:06

great clip of a guy got in a

18:09

plexiglass cage with

18:11

a bunch of, I think there were a bunch of great whites. They

18:14

crushed the plexiglass. The guy had to quickly

18:16

swim out of the water. Oh, you showed

18:18

me this. Yeah, it's a crazy, crazy clip.

18:20

I never. Yeah. That's so terrifying.

18:22

I mean, I've seen plenty of videos of them

18:26

fucking up seals, not as scary alone to

18:28

watch. And of course they do come out

18:30

of nowhere like that. Anyway, we're

18:32

getting off track, but they

18:34

do also bite the side of their

18:36

prey before pulling back and removing a

18:39

chunk of flesh. And great

18:41

whites are notorious for leaving behind

18:43

teeth in the victim's wounds. But

18:46

Michelle didn't have any of

18:48

these signs. There were no teeth in her body

18:50

and there were no large bites taken from

18:53

her side. So it really doesn't look like

18:56

an attack from a great white. Brian argued

18:58

that the shark didn't get ahold of her side,

19:00

but that it obviously had grabbed ahold

19:03

of Michelle's leg. Hence why there was

19:05

such a large portion of

19:07

her leg missing. However, other

19:09

experts still didn't buy this. As we

19:11

said, Michelle's leg bone was described as

19:13

being broken to a point. And

19:16

a shark expert named Ralph Collier described

19:18

it as looking like a piece of

19:20

bamboo that was kind of

19:23

like whittled down to a point, like you were to go

19:25

at it with a knife. Yeah. A

19:28

shark in those waters who could sever a

19:30

leg is the great white shark. However, it's

19:33

estimated that these sharks have a bite force

19:35

of 18,000 newtons or 4,000 pounds

19:37

of force. And

19:41

when they bite through limbs of humans,

19:43

they create a break that is straight

19:45

across, not angular. Indicating that the way

19:48

that the bone appears does not line

19:50

up with a great white biting off

19:52

the leg at that point.

19:55

That's something else happened there. Yeah, it's

19:57

just not possible. I

20:00

was looking up great white statistics

20:02

because I'm like these animals are

20:05

just unbelievable but they

20:07

actually don't have the strongest bite in the world.

20:09

They have the third strongest bite while they're estimated

20:11

to. American alligators are

20:13

second and saltwater crocodiles are the first.

20:15

That was surprising to me. Me too.

20:18

I would have thought great

20:20

whites would be above both of them.

20:22

But as shark expert Ralph explained it, quote,

20:24

when a white shark bites off part of

20:26

a limb, the break is clean, almost like

20:29

you put it on a table saw. What

20:31

remained of Michelle's femur was anything.

20:35

He also noted that the other bites on Michelle's

20:37

body couldn't have been made by a great white

20:39

shark as they were too small and also incorrectly

20:42

shaped. These bites were most likely

20:44

created by smaller sharks. These

20:46

smaller sharks wouldn't have been able to kill Michelle

20:48

or drag her down to the bottom of the

20:51

ocean, but they would have been able

20:53

to take the opportunity, obviously, to feed on a

20:55

dead body that they found floating in the water.

20:58

And Ralph also pointed out that if a great

21:00

white shark had grabbed Michelle by the leg, bit

21:02

her and severed her leg, she

21:04

would have bled out almost immediately.

21:06

She certainly would have been dead

21:08

before even having the opportunity to

21:11

breathe sand into her lungs. Therefore,

21:13

it's more likely that the bone is

21:15

broken before she died. She

21:18

drowned and then the other animals picked

21:20

away at her broken leg until part

21:22

of it was removed. Now,

21:24

those who were skeptical of Brian's

21:26

findings were also quick to point out that

21:28

Brian had never worked on a victim who had

21:30

been attacked by a shark before, ever. In

21:33

fact, he had admitted that he had never

21:35

so much as seen a shark bite victim

21:37

before. Additionally, the experts

21:39

at Scripps Institute didn't look at

21:41

the body. Instead, they gave advice

21:43

based on the descriptions made verbally

21:46

by Brian. And the

21:48

Scripps Institute expert that Brian

21:50

consulted was Chairman Richard Rosenblatt.

21:52

And when he was later shown

21:55

the measurements and images of Michelle's wounds,

21:57

he said that, quote, none of

21:59

the marks on Michelle's wounds. body were caused

22:01

by a white shark. And

22:03

another point of contention comes from the

22:05

examination's witness. Brian claimed that the

22:07

autopsy of Michelle was witnessed by Dr.

22:10

Harry Bonnell, but in an interview with

22:12

the San Diego Reader, Dr. Bonnell

22:15

claimed that he wasn't there. He quote,

22:17

says, I didn't witness the autopsy, even

22:19

though Black-Born says I did.

22:21

I'm sure I would remember a shark

22:23

attack like this one, but I wasn't there. So

22:26

why he just made up the

22:28

fact that someone else witnessed this and

22:31

gave a specific name. Totally

22:34

bizarre. And why? I don't

22:36

understand. My guess is that, you

22:40

know, he doesn't want to admit that potentially

22:42

he was wrong. I think that's kind of

22:45

embarrassing on his part. And so

22:47

he probably just made that

22:49

up to try and, you know, back

22:51

up whatever statement he was previously saying. And

22:53

I mean, yeah,

22:55

I think it's stupid. Yeah, it's just so

22:57

done to say something that's so easy

23:00

to prove to be a

23:02

lie. Yeah. Are we surprised though?

23:05

No. This kind of stuff happens all

23:08

the time though, unfortunately. Yeah. We've seen

23:10

so much bullshit with medical examiners. Yeah.

23:13

Is it weird? Sure. Could it have

23:15

something to do with how this

23:17

all turns out? Maybe. But I think it's just this

23:20

kind of stuff happens with medical

23:22

examiners, unfortunately, across the country. But

23:25

I've just been kind of looking at some

23:27

different things because I'm curious with

23:30

great white sharks in

23:32

San Diego, the

23:34

last death to

23:37

occur as a result of a great white shark

23:39

was in 2008, a swimmer

23:41

in the early morning, which I

23:44

believe they say sharks feed in

23:46

the morning and at dusk. Like, yes, dawn and

23:48

dusk is when they feed. So

23:50

Michelle is out in the ocean potentially

23:53

at midnight, which

23:56

obviously doesn't mean that sharks aren't feeding at that

23:58

time. But I believe they're

24:00

like most active at dawn and dusk because

24:02

they get the visibility. There's like some visibility

24:05

there It's just a part of their instinctual

24:07

hunting characteristics. But so david Martin

24:09

was a 66 year old retired veterinarian

24:11

who was swimming with a group around 14 miles

24:14

north. San Diego he was attacked by

24:16

a gray white shark and He

24:18

was again like a sneak attack and this thing

24:21

actually like popped him out of the water Like

24:23

he was swimming and it rammed him out of

24:25

the water and then it dragged him down uh

24:28

and nightmare Definitely

24:30

took took a few bites out of him.

24:33

He survived. No, he died. He used

24:35

to come to his wounds They're able to pull him out of the water,

24:37

which was good but obviously

24:39

a bite from the great white is gonna

24:41

be devastating but Teeth

24:44

were removed. So the tea

24:46

thing is very key For

24:49

a great white shark almost another

24:51

one in maine fairly recently Uh

24:54

that victim also had fragments

24:56

of teeth in their body

24:58

as well so The

25:02

the shark thing Definitely is

25:04

possible. Is it possible? That

25:06

she was already dead before

25:08

entering the ocean though and

25:12

You know a bunch of of sharks

25:15

Fed on her body at that point That's

25:17

that's a big question and I think one that is

25:20

definitely worth thinking about but let's let's continue here Because

25:22

we'll get into that here in a

25:24

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let them know we sent you. The

27:24

detail that a shark killed Michelle isn't the

27:26

only part of Brian's whole death timeline that

27:28

people really didn't feel like it added up.

27:30

Brian and the police believe that Michelle had

27:32

willingly gone skinny dipping around midnight however

27:35

the waters on that night were pretty

27:37

cold around 59 degrees and

27:39

skinny dipping could have easily caused

27:41

hypothermia but hypothermia is not

27:43

mentioned anywhere in the coroner's report so

27:46

that is very interesting to know

27:48

because if

27:51

she did go skinny dipping the water

27:53

was cold enough that it likely would have

27:55

caused hypothermia so there would have been evidence

27:57

to back that up because it makes sense.

28:00

You go skinny dipping in cold water, you get

28:02

hypothermia, you die in one

28:04

piece and then you're floating out there

28:08

and you get eaten at

28:10

that point. But I don't

28:12

know, the fact that that's not mentioned there, is that

28:14

just a mistake, was that just left out or did

28:16

they actually not find any evidence of hypothermia? I

28:19

don't know if we'll ever know but Brian's

28:21

final report mentioned that Michelle's purse

28:24

had been located two miles down the beach from where

28:26

her body was found. In

28:28

his theory, Michelle left her purse and then

28:30

entered the water at the same location. So

28:33

she went off the beach,

28:35

goes swimming, gets attacked by a

28:38

shark and then she floats two

28:40

miles away from the beach area.

28:43

And that's where she's eventually found around 3 p.m. on

28:45

the 15th. However, experts

28:47

conducted a drift test to see how long it would

28:49

have taken Michelle's body to make its way from where

28:51

she supposedly entered the water to where she was actually

28:53

found. And their results show that it would

28:55

have taken the body a minimum of 15 hours

28:59

to make the journey. Brian used these numbers

29:01

to determine that Michelle had entered the water

29:03

around midnight. However, others who saw these results

29:05

couldn't help but remember that a witness saw Michelle

29:07

at 8 p.m. And

29:10

it's very curious to me why

29:12

Moore wasn't done to determine what

29:15

happened between 8 p.m. and

29:17

midnight to Michelle. Yeah, it took a large

29:19

period of time there. It seems

29:21

like a sizable amount that should at least

29:24

be looked into to see

29:26

if there's anything weird

29:28

that happened potentially during that

29:30

four hour period. To

29:33

just be like, oh, who knows what

29:35

she was doing for four hours. Out in the cold.

29:37

And then she enters the water at 12 o'clock. I

29:41

mean, that's a lot of time to be out there. I

29:43

mean, maybe she was but still worth looking

29:45

into, I think. Well, regardless of

29:48

the holes in the report, Michelle's case was closed

29:51

and I believe to this day is still closed.

29:53

And for all intents and purposes, she was a

29:55

shark bite victim who died a

29:57

tragic and accidental death. But still,

29:59

people. couldn't help but produce new theories on

30:01

what might have happened to Michelle. So

30:04

one of the most prominent theories about Michelle's death

30:06

involves the sunset cliffs near where her body was

30:08

found. This area is absolutely

30:10

stunning. I've never been there. Actually I was

30:13

in San Diego as a kid, like

30:15

a toddler. So I don't think my parents would take

30:17

me to sunset cliffs. I was at the

30:20

zoo, but it does look beautiful

30:22

on Google. You were, you guys were just in

30:24

San Diego. Did you see sunset cliffs? We did

30:26

not, but the whole area of San Diego is

30:28

so beautiful. We were at a party. Well,

30:31

didn't you guys want to see the sunset? No,

30:34

we were here at the clubs. We're

30:38

getting sunset. The most scenic place in

30:40

San Diego, the nightclubs. Yeah. Yeah. We

30:43

actually had the whole club to ourselves. The

30:46

story for another day. So real

30:48

hop and hop in town or you guys were

30:50

in ocean side, right? We went to San Diego

30:52

for the night, but yeah, and that whole area

30:54

is so beautiful. It is caught up in jealous people

30:57

who live in San Diego. We have family, Pinal and I do in

30:59

San Diego. We've been here just several times

31:01

in our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

31:03

Yeah. The, well, just looking at Google, there's

31:06

houses right across the street from the sunset cliffs.

31:08

So there's people who got to walk out their

31:11

front door and literally be at the cliff. Yeah,

31:13

man. That's the life. That is the life. It's

31:15

beautiful, but these cliffs are very,

31:17

very steep, very rocky, as

31:20

beautiful as they are, insanely dangerous. If

31:22

you ever visit, you'll see signs warning

31:24

sight seers of the unstable nature of

31:26

the cliff, because it turns out these

31:28

cliffs are made of sandstone, a

31:31

substance that is known for crumbling at the slightest

31:33

bit of pressure. In fact, one study

31:35

done on data from 2005 to 2018 show that there were five deaths

31:40

or significant injuries a year at the

31:42

San Diego sandstone cliffs. And

31:45

I wanted to know when the last time someone

31:47

died at the sandstone cliffs and it was 2022,

31:49

kind of a similar situation. I

31:52

wasn't from, I don't actually, I

31:54

don't think it was from falling off the cliffs. I

31:56

think they drowned at the bottom base of the cliffs,

31:58

but they were found. right where Michelle was

32:00

found pretty much. But

32:03

this whole area, I mean, and whenever you

32:05

have steep cliffs like that, the ocean's gonna

32:07

be pretty violent

32:10

coming up to that rocky area, and the beach even

32:12

looks rocky too. I think there may be some sand,

32:14

but it's primarily a

32:17

rocky area here. Critics

32:19

of the theory pointed out that if Michelle had been

32:21

hanging out in the cliffs that night, it's unlikely that

32:23

she would have left her purse two

32:26

miles away on the beach. Yeah,

32:29

the whole thing with where her

32:31

purse is found and why

32:34

it wasn't found earlier is kinda weird too. But

32:37

another theory about Michelle's death

32:40

involves an accidental overdose. The

32:42

thought is that Michelle may have succumbed to her drug use

32:45

or had an accident while with her friends and in a

32:47

panic. And not wanting to get caught

32:49

by the police, the friends take

32:52

it upon themselves to go and throw

32:54

Michelle's body off the cliffs and

32:56

into the water to try to cover it

32:58

up. Very out there theory.

33:01

Possible, very unlikely. Doesn't

33:03

make any logical sense whatsoever.

33:05

No. And then obviously once in the

33:08

water, sea life consumed parts of

33:10

the body. Again, lots

33:12

of issues with that. Don't really hold a lot

33:14

of credence to

33:16

that one whatsoever. This next theory as well,

33:19

Michelle may have been in a car accident because he

33:21

can go back to the neck injury. He specified that

33:25

it was similar to what neck injuries look

33:27

like when people are in car accidents. I

33:31

guess that's where people are getting this theory, but there's

33:33

no evidence to suggest that she was ever in a

33:35

car after she was dropped off at the cliffs. No,

33:38

it's honestly such a stupid theory. Why, where

33:40

did that even come from? And what

33:42

was she? She was hurt in

33:45

the car accident and then wandered off the cliff. How'd

33:47

she get in the water? And where's the car? We

33:49

know that there were no car accidents in

33:52

that area. Around this time. So it just, that

33:54

one's a big no. But

33:57

the theory that I think is... Worth

34:00

looking into at least and and definitely

34:02

has a little bit more Evidence is.

34:05

Maybe. This wasn't axial. Maybe this

34:07

wasn't. You. Know a

34:09

shark attack? Maybe this was murder?

34:12

Perhaps. Initially be

34:14

most popular theory out there with that

34:16

Michelle was a victim of a murder.

34:19

Michelle. Had been having issues in the weeks.

34:21

Leading up to her death, she had

34:23

told her friend about a possible stalker

34:25

that she hadn't mentioned, being uncomfortable with

34:28

the attention other particular customer at one

34:30

of her former jobs. And

34:32

at the time that she died, Michelle was also living

34:34

in an area. Ocean Beach so is

34:36

nicknamed the war zone. Deeds with level

34:39

of violence and drug frames. And.

34:41

This has led. Many to believe that

34:43

this stalker or another sketchy person in

34:45

the area. Possibly. Attacked

34:47

Michelle while she on the beach and

34:49

then drowned her in shallow waters and

34:51

toss her body from Sunset Cliffs. He.

34:54

Will also point out that the percent

34:56

michelle left behind was on the heavily

34:58

populated. Part of the beach and in an

35:01

area where bags that's where comment. So how

35:03

is it possible that her purse and his

35:05

belongings managed to spend almost twenty four hours

35:07

on the beach without. Being. Noticed are

35:09

taken which yes it is unlikely.

35:12

But. It's possible that. No.

35:14

One picked it up or people did pick up.

35:17

Looked inside, there wasn't anything. Valuable

35:19

enough to them to take or

35:21

word said. No. One saw it. Cel.

35:24

Oh, as thoroughly think that's. A

35:26

huge element of evidence. Anyway,

35:28

when the police found the bag

35:30

hours after finding Michelle, it's still

35:32

contained he's cigarettes and some cash.

35:35

One. Theory is that missiles murder planted

35:37

the bag on the beach after she

35:39

was found to help. His.

35:41

It the police away from. Where she was

35:44

actually murdered. If. She was

35:46

attacked and potentially sexually assaulted. This

35:48

would explain why Michelle was naked at the

35:50

time of her death. And enormous

35:52

lifeguard did come forward, claiming that he

35:55

had previously seen michelle. Slimming, topless

35:57

in the ocean. However, Salad.

36:00

during warmer weather and during the daytime,

36:02

which is quite different than swimming completely

36:04

nude in frigid waters past midnight. And

36:06

just to clarify, that is just

36:09

coming from this life that we don't even know if that's

36:11

true. However, another person did

36:13

come forward and claimed that

36:15

they knew that Michelle swam naked.

36:18

This was a man named Edwin Decker.

36:20

Now this guy, this guy

36:23

is pretty soft. Yeah,

36:25

I'd say creepy, what a

36:27

lie. Creepy dude. Edwin was a

36:29

coworker of Michelle's. And at the time

36:31

that she died, he made statements that

36:33

Michelle was a hippie and that she

36:35

had told him that she often surfed

36:37

naked. However, Michelle's closest

36:39

friend said, not only

36:41

had they never seen her surfing before,

36:44

but they definitely never heard her mentioned

36:46

surfing in the nude. And

36:48

people started to wonder if Edwin was simply

36:50

trying to give information that would explain away

36:52

some of the strange details of her death

36:54

so that investigators wouldn't look any

36:57

further into the details. Edwin

36:59

also made claims that the night before Michelle

37:01

died on the 13th of April, that the

37:03

two of them sat down for a few

37:05

drinks together. Afterward, he said that

37:07

he and Michelle made out before she left his

37:09

place around 5 a.m. on the

37:12

14th of April. Edwin also

37:14

said that the two of them had been flirting with each

37:16

other for weeks. He said

37:18

they, quote, had a total intellectual

37:20

connection and felt there was an

37:22

emotional connection too. He

37:25

went on to add to that that,

37:27

at least on my part, there was.

37:30

So I think that tells you quite a bit right

37:32

there. And when Michelle hadn't contacted

37:35

Edwin afterward, he said he was, quote,

37:37

so bummed when a couple of days

37:39

went by and she hadn't called. The

37:41

interesting thing is, is there are

37:43

no reports from Michelle's friends or coworkers

37:46

describing any type of relationship between

37:48

Michelle and Edwin, not even a

37:50

casual flirting relationship. So many

37:52

people found Edwin's statements

37:54

to be pretty odd.

37:56

Like he was adding details that would

37:58

make others think that. What he and

38:00

Michelle had was a lot

38:03

deeper of a romance than they

38:05

genuinely did. Now, one of the

38:07

weirdest things that Edwin did after

38:09

he found out about Michelle's death

38:11

was that he wrote and published

38:14

one of the most bizarre and disturbing poems

38:16

of all time. It says,

38:19

The report said there was a tattoo,

38:21

a butterfly on her shoulder, which I

38:23

remembered that night. On my couch when

38:25

I, like the shark, chewed on her

38:27

lips and took off her shirt. That

38:30

truly is like one of the creepiest

38:32

things I've ever read about. It's so

38:34

fucking weird and insensitive and... It

38:37

gives me stalker vibes. Yeah, it's

38:39

just... Ugh. So

38:41

odd. I mean, to play devil's advocate

38:44

here, I know... Poetry

38:46

is an art form. Maybe he's

38:48

grieving and this is his

38:50

way of processing it. I'm just playing

38:53

devil's advocate. Yeah, making a poem maybe,

38:55

but specifically saying, On my couch when

38:57

I like the shark, chewed on

38:59

her lips and took off her shirt. No,

39:01

no, I know. You're right. It's weird. I

39:04

shouldn't even try to justify Edwin. It's fucking

39:07

weird Edwin. I don't know what else to say.

39:10

Yeah, and to also

39:13

go back to his quote, I

39:16

felt there was an emotional connection too. At

39:18

least on my part there was. I get

39:20

a... feelings

39:24

of... essay going on

39:26

here. That there's potentially

39:29

some... We have no evidence. I'm

39:31

just saying, maybe... possibly...

39:35

something's going on here that... doesn't

39:37

feel right to me. It's definitely

39:40

creepy, bizarre behavior. There is no

39:42

evidence of anything further. Not to

39:44

defend Edwin any further, I'm

39:46

saying. Yeah, but there could be no evidence because

39:48

he was never investigated as a suspect because this

39:51

was never investigated as a homicide. That's a good

39:53

point. It's strange behavior that should

39:55

have been looked into further, for sure.

39:57

Seems like at least... Again,

40:00

consider all possibilities before just

40:03

ruling on what

40:05

seems the most obvious theory. Because

40:08

sometimes they get things

40:11

wrong. Yeah, and if you look at

40:13

the poem from that lens too,

40:16

is it possible that he's trying to

40:20

further solidify

40:22

the idea that it was a shark attack?

40:26

Right. You know? And

40:28

you have also planted the

40:30

info with the lifeguards that

40:33

she swam naked, that she was topless

40:36

to try to create

40:38

this narrative that, oh no, she was

40:40

naked all the time. That's just what

40:43

she did. I

40:45

don't know, possibility. Yeah,

40:47

it's very bizarre. Scary.

40:51

And if she's complaining

40:53

about somebody potentially stalking

40:55

her, and he's literally with

40:57

her the day

41:00

before, this all

41:02

happens. Yeah, I know. It's

41:04

all very, very strange. It

41:06

is. And in

41:08

my opinion, should have been

41:10

looked into further because there's

41:12

clearly, whether or not he's involved

41:14

in her death, there's just, there

41:17

could be other things going on there that may have led

41:19

her to her death.

41:22

Whether they did it or she did it

41:24

to herself, maybe there was something that was

41:26

like the final straw of that

41:29

breaking point that happened with Edwin that

41:32

leads us to other theories, is what I'm

41:34

saying. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely possible. I

41:37

just want to clarify. I'm not trying to

41:39

like defend Edwin. No, I know. There

41:42

is no concrete evidence to show that he

41:44

was involved in her death, and it is

41:46

possible that he was someone who cared about

41:48

Michelle, truly felt the loss of her death,

41:50

and he has a

41:53

very strange way of coping with it.

41:56

I wouldn't necessarily say mental illness, but...

42:00

I don't know cope with things in very

42:02

very bizarre ways that can't always be understood

42:04

by others Okay,

42:07

that's true. Sure. I still

42:09

think it's bizarre and should have been looked

42:11

into further. I Just

42:13

wanted to be clear And

42:16

we are not Yeah, I

42:18

got you framing him. No, I got you.

42:20

We're not framing him. There's no evidence Yeah,

42:23

because it was never investigated. You just gotta

42:25

be careful. Yeah, and

42:27

again, he does try to team

42:30

up with an investigator request that the

42:32

medical examiners reevaluate Michelle's death which Could

42:35

take it either way because it could just be further

42:39

another way for him to try to Make

42:41

it seem like he's innocent. Yeah, but it

42:43

also but on the flip side He could

42:45

absolutely be he just like maybe cared a

42:47

lot about her Maybe she

42:49

didn't feel that way back But he feels like

42:51

some type of connection with her and feels bad

42:54

or you know What just wants to help or

42:56

yeah, he's really trying to insert himself into it

42:58

I mean we have seen that in the past

43:00

where people who are involved try to

43:02

look like they are the ones that are helping

43:04

to Right, you know,

43:06

especially when you look at murders

43:09

involving stalkers. Yep, that kind

43:11

of stuff happens a lot they want to be

43:13

involved they insert themselves into the investigation and I

43:18

Don't know. I don't know. I'm very suspicious

43:20

of Ed one if you can't tell yeah,

43:22

I think we all are suspicious of Ed

43:25

way, but also there's more

43:27

to come that Also

43:31

gives you a whole other look into To

43:34

Michelle's past and yeah another

43:36

theory that I think holds a lot of Creations

43:39

as well. So let's let's continue So

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45:08

any information that they discovered in their

45:11

investigation was not released to the

45:13

public and Michelle's death remains documented

45:15

as an accidental drowning and

45:17

shark attack. However, throughout the

45:19

years, people have speculated about what truly

45:22

happened to Michelle. One person

45:24

who was particularly invested in

45:26

Michelle's death is a man who hosts a shark

45:29

attack podcast called The Shark

45:31

Files. And in 2021, the show

45:33

had its second ever episode titled

45:35

Sunset Cliff. The episode

45:37

did a deep dive into Michelle's case

45:40

and eight months after it was released,

45:42

Shark Files blog posted an update on

45:44

the case and they said they

45:46

believe they discovered the cause of Michelle's death,

45:49

a tragic suicide. Now

45:52

to prove this, the podcast references

45:54

an article on medium.com. And

45:56

before I go any further, again, just

45:58

a forewarning. and we're gonna talk about

46:00

a lot of very disturbing

46:03

things involving sexual

46:05

assaults on children,

46:08

even pertaining to the

46:10

Catholic Church. So proceed

46:13

with caution. On February 4th, 2019, Michelle's

46:16

younger sister, Teresa, published an article that was

46:18

posted to the website Medium. The

46:20

article is titled, The Roman Catholic

46:22

Church Raped My Family and It

46:24

Wasn't an Accident. That right there

46:27

is just horrifying to even

46:29

think that that would be the title of the article.

46:31

In the article, Teresa begins by discussing a grand jury

46:33

report that came out in August 2018 regarding

46:37

the sexual abuse of 1,000 children by

46:40

at least 300 Catholic priests. When

46:42

the report was publicized, some people were

46:44

shocked and disgusted by the news while

46:46

others were relieved that finally, this

46:49

huge issue is finally being

46:51

discussed. Teresa then went on to state

46:53

that her family had allegedly been directly

46:55

impacted by the perversions of

46:58

a Catholic priest by the name Father

47:00

Greg Engels. According to Teresa, Father Engels

47:02

had been moved from parish to parish,

47:04

school to school, and each and every

47:06

time, he was called out for

47:08

his pedophilic abuse of

47:10

behavior. However, Michelle's family

47:12

had no idea that any of this was going

47:14

on at the time when they met

47:17

him at St. Charles Rectory in 1982. The

47:20

Rectory functioned as an office for the local

47:22

parish and contained a K through eight

47:24

school. The congregation was huge and Father Engels

47:26

was only one of multiple priests holding residency

47:29

at the church. That same

47:31

year, Michelle and her sister

47:33

Kirsten began working at the church rectory. They,

47:36

along with another teenager who's referred to as

47:38

Anna in the article, worked directly with the

47:40

priests to complete tasks around the rectory as

47:42

needed. Father Engels seemed charming to

47:45

the girls and their families and they were unaware

47:47

that he had been accused of violent sexual crimes

47:49

against at least one male and one

47:51

female student from another church. They

47:53

were also unaware that he had spent noticeably short

47:56

periods of time at a multitude of churches, which

47:58

is consistent with the behavior of the church. surrounding

48:00

other sexually offending priests in the Catholic Church. Each

48:03

time Father Ingalls was called out for his behavior,

48:05

his higher ups simply moved him somewhere new and

48:07

allowed him to pray on a new

48:09

group of potential victims. Almost immediately

48:11

after starting work with Father Ingalls, the

48:14

three girls all became very uncomfortable with him

48:17

and Father Ingalls started grooming them.

48:19

He would linger a little too long when

48:21

touching the girls. He'd offer back rubs, massages,

48:24

and long hunts. All very concerning

48:26

and inappropriate. After

48:28

a few months, Father Ingalls took things further with Michelle

48:30

when she was just 14 years

48:32

old. Reportedly, he forced

48:35

a kiss on her and Michelle would later tell

48:37

her friends that she had to physically fight him

48:39

off of her to make him

48:41

stop. Absolutely

48:44

disgusting. But the abuse did not end

48:46

there. On another occasion, the priests

48:48

allegedly showed up at Michelle's house when she

48:50

was the only one at home and

48:52

sexually abused her. The attack

48:54

was so traumatic that Michelle would later tell her

48:57

boyfriend Eric that at one point she blacked out

48:59

and when she woke up it was over. After

49:04

this heinous attack, Father Ingalls left the home,

49:07

cleaned up, and returned a few hours later

49:09

to eat dinner alongside

49:11

Michelle and her family. I

49:14

mean, the nerve of this guy.

49:16

I mean, just ugh. That's how they work. It's

49:19

demonic. To make it all seem normal. Right.

49:22

Nothing happened. In the report,

49:24

Teresa described that this was the beginning of the end

49:26

for Michelle. According to Teresa, Michelle

49:28

tried to explain to her parents what had happened

49:30

to her, but they simply could not understand

49:32

the extent of the abuse that went

49:35

on. Maybe Michelle was too

49:37

afraid to go into detail or perhaps the parents

49:39

simply thought she was exaggerating the

49:41

things that had happened to her. However, after

49:43

Michelle's sister Kirsten and Anna from the church

49:45

came forward to say that Father Ingalls had

49:48

made them all feel uncomfortable, her

49:50

parents finally confronted the church. However,

49:52

Father Ingalls used his charisma and

49:54

reputation to talk the parents down. He

49:57

told them that perhaps Michelle had misread his entire

50:00

life. tensions, Okay, What?

50:02

Other intended, I'm it's. Camps.

50:06

As blame the victim. A

50:08

child rape of a fourteen year

50:10

old girl. Maybe. Perhaps he

50:13

adjusts. Let. Them get too close to

50:15

him sometimes and should have known better. Even.

50:17

Told them that Michelle with often asked to

50:19

sit on his lap. And. He

50:22

learned. That. He should not have allowed

50:24

that and shit. Okay, did you see did

50:26

not ask to sit on your life thirteen

50:28

year old? What did when an idiot even

50:30

try and say that? And. What's

50:32

even sadder that muscles parents believed him.

50:35

And. She was forced to continue working in the church

50:37

with her sister and friend. Forced. To

50:39

face. Her. Abuser.

50:42

Repeatedly. Horses. Suffer from

50:44

is disgusting and hurry thick. Actions.

50:47

Teresa described how Michelle started dating a boy named

50:49

Bob and high school and Father Engels would try

50:52

to break them up. He would tell Marshawn her

50:54

parents are. Bob was no good for her. It's.

50:56

Their bogged down when he had come to

50:58

the church directory, and overall Father Angles was

51:01

extremely possessive of Michelle. treats her family would

51:03

like to be the father and goes only

51:05

raped Michelle once, but there's really no way

51:07

of knowing how many times he may have

51:09

harmed her. Regardless, Of the

51:12

number of assaults, michelle begin to act out

51:14

at home and pick fights with their parents,

51:16

which is a common behavior of children who

51:18

have suffered a sexual assault. Around

51:20

the same time, her boyfriend Bob would some

51:22

bring Michelle home from dates early and tell

51:24

her parents that Michelle had fainted. Afterward,

51:27

Michelle begin having fainting spells at

51:29

school. And Michelle's mother took her to

51:31

multiple doctors, but nobody gave her any clues as

51:33

to what was happening. To. Her daughter.

51:36

And we think it's important to note that

51:38

in this article, treat the provide It's more

51:40

context as to why her parents reacted the

51:42

way that they did. To. The things

51:44

easy get angry at them and and

51:47

blame them for this happening. To.

51:49

Michelle but. She. Goes on

51:51

to explain that while Catholics are encouraged

51:54

to question their faith, They. Are

51:56

not encouraged to question the institution,

51:59

She. continues by quote, my parents for

52:01

whom the church is the bedrock and foundation

52:03

of their identity and lifestyle followed

52:05

accepted Catholic principles when it came to

52:08

this new allegation. They even

52:10

took it to the parish priest, Father

52:12

John Ryan, with his aid and the

52:14

aid of a former San Francisco district attorney. Everyone

52:17

worked together to resolve the situation within the

52:19

church. Ostensibly, this was a

52:21

way to preserve our family's privacy. No

52:24

one suggested at any time that this was a criminal

52:26

matter that rightfully should have been

52:28

reported to the police, including

52:30

the district attorney friend. So we

52:32

have somebody who was a district

52:34

attorney being

52:37

a part of this conversation at least doesn't

52:39

think it needs to go to the authorities. What?

52:42

Yeah, that's shocking. The

52:45

San Jose diocese, which was led by

52:47

Bishop Patrick McGraw, was in charge of

52:50

the investigation. The diocese only interviewed two

52:52

people, her high school boyfriend, Bob and

52:55

Eric, her other boyfriend. The diocese

52:57

never attempted to speak with others who were

52:59

working at the rectory at the time or

53:01

reach out to other victims. Teresa also claims

53:03

that the diocese never interviewed Kirsten or Anna,

53:05

even though her parents suggested that they do.

53:08

According to Teresa, after the diocese spoke

53:10

with Bob and Eric, Father Ingalls underwent

53:12

a psychiatric evaluation and it was

53:14

determined that he did not fit the profile of

53:16

a pedophile. So the church closed the investigation

53:19

due to having quote insufficient

53:21

grounds. And who even knows, I mean,

53:23

what that psychiatric evaluation, I mean, that's

53:25

what even that entailed. Right. As a

53:27

disgusting side note, Father Ingalls was eventually

53:29

promoted to a canon lawyer whose job

53:31

it is to make sure that the

53:33

rules of the church order are properly

53:35

understood and applied. And he apparently

53:37

even continued to work as a

53:39

specialist in sexual abuse investigations involving

53:41

priests and church prosecution.

53:45

How does that happen? Even

53:48

despite these allegations, like, well, insufficient ground.

53:50

So let's promote the guy. Yeah. And

53:52

let's make him head. Yeah. And

53:55

the leading expert in handling accusations of sexual

53:57

assault and abuse within the Roman Catholic Church.

54:00

It's terrifying. It's

54:02

sick is what it is. It's demented. In

54:06

1996 new allegations against Father Ingalls were brought to

54:08

the diocese and eventually in 2003 he was arrested

54:10

and charged. Sadly,

54:13

but not really all that surprisingly the

54:15

church claimed that 1996 was the first

54:17

time the church had heard about Father

54:20

Ingalls crimes. Hmm convenient. Yeah, mind you

54:22

this is two years after Michelle's parents

54:24

had told the church about Michelle's abuse.

54:27

And chances are other people told them

54:29

about their experiences as well and they're

54:31

like, well, we all know

54:33

the truth about this that they

54:37

the Catholic Church has swept

54:39

this abuse under the rug for years and years and

54:41

years and maybe

54:43

still do. Oh for sure still

54:46

do. Of course they do.

54:49

It's it's very sad and very

54:52

disturbing that this is

54:54

going on. And again to be fair, this

54:56

is not just the Catholic Church. This

54:58

is no no across all religions

55:01

all denominations in one way or

55:03

another. But it is very prominent

55:05

in the Catholic Church specifically. Specifically

55:07

with priests. Yep. Even with

55:09

these public accusations the church assigned Father Ingalls

55:11

to serve as Philan priests at another parish

55:14

that had an on-site school. That

55:16

is terrifying. He

55:19

continues to be able to be around young children, young

55:21

girls, promoted. Unbelievable.

55:25

And guess what? All of

55:27

these charges ended up being dropped because

55:29

the statute of limitations

55:31

had expired. Father Ingalls continued

55:33

to serve in a legal role for the church

55:36

until another accusation came in 2015. And

55:39

at that point he was ultimately laicized,

55:42

which basically means kicked out. And

55:46

that is a long time that this

55:48

guy operated. Who knows how

55:50

many victims he had. Mm-hmm or still probably

55:52

has. I don't know if he's still alive. Last

55:56

I knew in her art and Teresa's

55:59

article at C&M as though he was. Now again

56:01

this is in the

56:06

church but who knows what else he's doing out in

56:08

the rest of the world. True. If

56:10

he's alive. Also side

56:12

note in 1996 California passed a law

56:15

that made priests mandated reporters of abuse

56:17

and this essentially means that they are

56:19

obligated by law to report to CPS

56:21

if they are aware of or suspect

56:24

child abuse. However the church

56:26

didn't bother to educate priests on this law until

56:28

2002. Six years

56:30

after the law was passed. Six

56:32

years. Convenient. Additionally this

56:35

is sick. Between

56:37

the years of 2002 and 2014 the Vatican reported that 3,420 priests were

56:43

tried globally. However only 848 were found guilty

56:45

and lay a size. Less than

56:49

25% of them.

56:52

Were some bullshit. Were found

56:54

guilty. Yeah such a small

56:56

percentage. It's absolutely

56:59

alarming and I wanted to talk because this is like one

57:01

of the big questions I think a lot of people have

57:04

and we were talking about this before is if

57:08

this is going on you know like

57:10

if somebody comes to a priest and

57:12

says hey you know

57:14

I committed a crime or you know

57:16

report child sexual abuse to

57:19

somebody within the church maybe it was one of

57:21

the other priests and they're complaining about a different

57:23

priest there that they alleged

57:26

did something to them or to a family

57:28

member is that priest responsible

57:31

for reporting that to the authorities

57:34

so that a proper investigation and justice can be

57:36

served and I've

57:39

heard a lot of different things over

57:42

the years just covering cases involving

57:45

priests but I think

57:48

it goes back to the seal of confession and

57:51

penitent privilege so

57:54

the code of

57:56

canon law forbids priests from

57:58

divulging information receiving in confession. The

58:01

penalty for a priest intervention

58:04

is excommunication. This

58:08

is a

58:10

protected thing. There are some states, I

58:13

think California is one of

58:15

them that have made that

58:17

a little bit more difficult, specifically pertaining to

58:21

protecting children and

58:23

young people. This is the

58:25

Charter for the Protection of Children

58:27

and Young People. It's a comprehensive

58:29

set of procedures, originally established by

58:32

the United States Conference of Catholic

58:34

Bishops. This was established

58:36

in June 2002 for addressing allegations

58:38

of sexual abuse of minors by

58:40

Catholic clergy. This

58:42

charter includes guidelines for reconciliation,

58:45

healing, accountability, and prevention of

58:47

future acts of abuse. It

58:50

does say within the Charter that

58:53

creating a safe environment for children and

58:55

young people, healing and reconciliation of victims

58:57

and survivors, cooperating with civil authorities. My

59:01

point is that the way that they view

59:03

it is that if you go commit a crime to a

59:05

priest, that

59:08

doesn't mean the priest isn't going to go call the police on you.

59:11

What they will do is

59:14

encourage you to go turn yourself in. If you're

59:16

there to get right with God, one of

59:20

the things they're going to tell you is, you

59:23

need to confess your sins, not only to me,

59:25

but you need to turn yourself into the authorities.

59:27

There is this protection in place

59:30

that they do not have to report you to the...

59:32

They're not going to call 911 once they get done

59:35

with you and be like, hey, so and so, just

59:37

confess to me. I think that must vary on the

59:39

law because manager reporters, it's not like, oh

59:41

yeah, teachers, therapists, doctors, whatever

59:43

are manager reporters. Yeah, priests

59:45

are too now, apparently, except

59:47

for if they confess it

59:50

in the confessional or whatever it's called.

59:54

That's the kind of silence room. By

59:56

law, you have to. in

1:00:00

California, I mean, unless this law changed,

1:00:03

are we surprised that a system that

1:00:05

is set up to protect

1:00:07

predators is rampant with

1:00:09

predators? It's

1:00:13

just like... So the issue, the

1:00:15

thing with this is that this clergy-pentant

1:00:17

privilege is the recognition

1:00:19

of the proper relation between church and

1:00:21

state and the constitutionally protected right to

1:00:23

free exercise of religion. The government has

1:00:25

no right to encroach upon the sacred

1:00:27

communication. With Catholics, we advocate for

1:00:29

this protection only for ourselves but for people of all

1:00:32

faiths. And there's multiple examples

1:00:34

of how this has made

1:00:36

it into the courts and

1:00:39

ultimately the courts recognize this constitutional

1:00:41

right, I guess. I'm sorry, but that is

1:00:43

a lot of crap, in

1:00:45

my opinion. I agree. You're...

1:00:48

no. So basically they're saying the reason

1:00:50

why they have this is because it would defeat

1:00:52

the whole purpose of confession.

1:00:55

People wouldn't come and confess to them if

1:00:57

they knew that they were going to be

1:00:59

reported to the authorities, so therefore it infringes

1:01:02

on their right to exercise

1:01:06

freedom of religion and

1:01:09

it would basically break the whole seal of confession.

1:01:12

So therefore, this has

1:01:14

to be a protected thing for them and is

1:01:17

in many states. I think some states

1:01:19

have done different things

1:01:21

to try and kind of

1:01:23

break this down a little bit for specific

1:01:25

examples, but it seems like at

1:01:28

least the view

1:01:31

of the Catholic Church is that this is a

1:01:34

sacred right that should not

1:01:36

be touched by any state,

1:01:40

local, federal law because

1:01:42

it's constitutionally protected. Okay. Very

1:01:45

convenient. But it's like, is

1:01:48

it worth it to have that

1:01:50

when so much horrific

1:01:52

abuse is going on? I don't know. I'm

1:01:55

curious. Again, I'm not a Catholic. I

1:01:58

have family that are Catholic and maybe they'll ask me. about

1:02:00

the seal of confession at our

1:02:02

Easter lunch. That's a great

1:02:04

time to bring it up. I dare you.

1:02:06

Oh my God. Oh, I would love to see

1:02:08

that. I want to ask. I'm like, ask one

1:02:11

of my aunts to see what they say. I'm

1:02:13

curious. So yeah,

1:02:15

I really don't know anything. I'm just reading off of,

1:02:17

if I got anything wrong, I apologize.

1:02:19

I'd be interested if any of you know

1:02:21

more about this or have personal experience with

1:02:23

this, please let us know in the

1:02:26

comments or on social media because I'm very curious

1:02:28

about this. But let's

1:02:30

get back to Michelle's case. We're getting pretty

1:02:32

distracted here. Although this all does

1:02:34

tie very much into Michelle's story. But

1:02:37

despite Michelle's struggle, she did

1:02:40

graduate high school in 1984 and enrolled in St.

1:02:42

Mary's College

1:02:45

in Moraga, California. And over the

1:02:47

next two years, Michelle's life took

1:02:49

a distinct turn. She fell

1:02:51

into a bad crowd. She began drinking heavily

1:02:53

and was thought to be using marijuana

1:02:56

and cocaine. And after

1:02:58

two years, she did drop out of St. Mary's

1:03:00

and enrolled in beauty college. Her family hoped

1:03:02

that a change of scenery might help

1:03:04

her, but her addiction to alcohol did

1:03:06

continue. And then shortly after she began

1:03:08

her studies, Michelle was diagnosed

1:03:11

with leukemia. So for

1:03:13

months, Michelle's mother took her back and forth

1:03:15

to appointments and stayed by her side as

1:03:17

she fought against cancer. And after a year,

1:03:19

Michelle was in complete remission from her

1:03:22

cancer. And it seemed like her life was finally

1:03:24

going to get back on track. She

1:03:26

rented a house in Loma Portal, which

1:03:28

is an idyllic place that overlooks the

1:03:30

San Diego Bay. But after a

1:03:33

short time in Loma Portal, Michelle

1:03:35

moved to Ocean Beach where the

1:03:37

crime rates were high. And sadly,

1:03:39

Michelle's trauma caught up to her and

1:03:41

she did fall back into that spiral

1:03:43

of addiction. And Michelle didn't

1:03:45

feel comfortable at home anymore, or perhaps she

1:03:48

didn't feel safe. So she picked back up

1:03:50

on her quote, hippie ways, as her

1:03:52

sister describes them and began following the band

1:03:54

to the Grateful Dead on tour. And according

1:03:56

to Teresa, she quote, only showed up at

1:03:58

the family home when when the dead were

1:04:00

in town. And she was doing drugs

1:04:03

again, specifically marijuana and heroin,

1:04:06

and her parents decided to give Michelle some

1:04:08

tough love. They told her that she

1:04:10

either needed to get off the drugs

1:04:12

or stay away, so Michelle

1:04:15

chose to stay away. And

1:04:17

keep in mind, this was during Nancy

1:04:19

Reagan's Just Say No movement. Oh, this

1:04:22

was right in the middle of the war on drugs.

1:04:24

Yep, yep, and this was very prevalent

1:04:27

at the time. People did not really have

1:04:29

any understanding of

1:04:31

drug addiction. They didn't get

1:04:33

that it's an illness, that it's

1:04:35

much more complicated than just saying no. Just

1:04:38

stop. There just was not, I

1:04:40

mean, to this day, there's still not enough

1:04:43

understanding of that, but especially

1:04:45

back then, it was really

1:04:47

rough. Well, we have a whole episode on it,

1:04:49

too. Yeah, we do. We go into great detail

1:04:52

about the war on drugs and

1:04:54

a lot of the bad that came out of that. So

1:04:56

over the next four years, Michelle worked multiple

1:04:58

jobs to fund her life and her addiction,

1:05:00

and she began hanging out with sort of

1:05:02

a rough crowd. One of Michelle's

1:05:05

jobs was at a coffee shop, and according

1:05:07

to multiple reports, Michelle left that job because

1:05:09

there was a customer who frequently made her

1:05:11

feel uncomfortable. She told her friends

1:05:13

that he practically stalked her, and

1:05:16

it appears she never identified this man, but she

1:05:18

did tell her friends that he drove a motorcycle.

1:05:21

Theresa claims that she left her coffee

1:05:23

shop job for a far worse

1:05:25

reason than a creepy customer. According

1:05:28

to Theresa, and this is crazy,

1:05:30

the coffee shop was robbed, and

1:05:32

Michelle was held at gunpoint. God,

1:05:35

what a traumatic life Michelle truly

1:05:37

had. Theresa believes

1:05:40

that Michelle may have been sexually

1:05:42

assaulted during that event, which

1:05:45

obviously we don't know if that's

1:05:47

true. Nobody will ever honestly know

1:05:49

if that actually happened or why

1:05:52

Michelle left her job or many of the other

1:05:54

decisions that she made in the early 90s, but

1:05:57

all these possibilities came crashing

1:05:59

down that fateful day in

1:06:01

April of 1994. After

1:06:03

learning of Michelle's tragic history, the Shark

1:06:05

Files host found a Facebook account blowing

1:06:08

to her sister Kirsten, and there

1:06:11

they noted dozens of memorial posts for

1:06:13

Michelle, and it seems that Kirsten posts

1:06:16

about Michelle on the anniversary of her

1:06:18

death, on her birthday, and random days

1:06:20

in between as well. And even on

1:06:22

posts that are not dedicated to Michelle,

1:06:24

Kirsten always finds a way to kind

1:06:26

of include her sister's memory, and it's

1:06:29

both heartbreaking to see that, but also

1:06:31

inspiring to see the love that Kirsten

1:06:33

had for her sister. And in the Shark

1:06:35

Files update blog, it's pointed out that in

1:06:38

Kirsten's posts, the sisters and other family

1:06:40

members talk about Michelle as if they

1:06:42

know how she died, as if there's,

1:06:44

you know, no mystery surrounding

1:06:46

her passing. And with this

1:06:48

information, Shark Files listeners have began to

1:06:50

believe that Michelle

1:06:53

ended her own life that night by

1:06:55

jumping from the stand-stone cliffs. They believe

1:06:57

she sustained the impact injuries in

1:06:59

the fall and severely broke her

1:07:02

leg, and these injuries would have

1:07:04

incapacitated Michelle as she was dragged

1:07:06

out to sea, potentially into a nearby

1:07:08

rib-tide and thrown against rocks and

1:07:11

the seafloor where her neck was broken,

1:07:13

and she ultimately drowned. As

1:07:16

for her severe leg injuries, it's believed

1:07:18

that marine life fed upon Michelle's body,

1:07:20

eventually causing the leg to break away

1:07:22

from the rest of her body. In

1:07:25

fact, there is a highly respected

1:07:27

guide to femoral shaft fractures called

1:07:30

the Windquist-Hansen classification of femoral shaft

1:07:32

fractures, and based on this guide,

1:07:34

a type 2 or 3

1:07:37

fracture could absolutely explain a bone that

1:07:39

looks pointed and cut like bamboo,

1:07:41

as we were kind of explaining earlier.

1:07:43

And to be clear, this presumption

1:07:45

has never been officially confirmed by any

1:07:48

of Michelle's family, but there is

1:07:50

one clue to the case that may

1:07:52

confirm this theory. According to multiple

1:07:54

Reddit users discussing the update, the

1:07:56

Michelle von Emster Wikipedia page was

1:07:58

at some point updated with the

1:08:00

line quote, after the investigation the family knows

1:08:02

the true cause of death and has chosen

1:08:04

to keep the details private. Next

1:08:07

to the sentence was a notice that

1:08:09

a citation was needed. A reddit

1:08:11

user called salamanderqueen then commented that

1:08:14

the edit history for the

1:08:16

page had the following explanation

1:08:18

for the changes quote, removed

1:08:20

copyright infringing image, updated details about

1:08:23

my sister's death. No mystery on

1:08:25

this one. Now it is

1:08:27

important to note that this is no longer on the

1:08:29

wiki and it cannot be verified if it was even

1:08:32

there to begin with, but if it was, we

1:08:34

also cannot prove that it actually was one

1:08:36

of Michelle's sisters that made the update. Still

1:08:39

though it seems that all signs

1:08:41

from Michelle's family and friends point to

1:08:44

the same conclusion that Michelle's trauma

1:08:46

was just you

1:08:48

know too much for her to bear and she'd

1:08:50

been through so much in her life and that trauma

1:08:55

and hardship was the cause

1:08:57

of her death in one way

1:08:59

or another. Today Michelle's legacy lives

1:09:01

on through her younger sister Teresa who

1:09:04

exposed the world to the abuse that

1:09:06

Michelle sadly endured by the

1:09:08

Roman Catholic Church. In Teresa's article

1:09:10

she states that although her whole

1:09:12

family is obviously devastated by her

1:09:15

death they say quote, we are

1:09:17

happy Michelle finally has peace. Peace

1:09:19

that was stolen from her

1:09:21

at age 15 by father

1:09:23

Greg Ingalls. Peace my family

1:09:25

still doesn't have. Really powerful

1:09:27

quote there. Teresa also

1:09:30

wrote that her parents carry a lot of

1:09:32

the shame over not doing a better job

1:09:34

protecting Michelle. They also feel

1:09:37

angry at how the church manipulated

1:09:39

them and protected father Ingalls. Cannot

1:09:41

imagine carrying those feelings. As

1:09:44

adults with two children of her own

1:09:46

Teresa started the Wounded Birds Ministry which

1:09:48

is a website that helps educate encourage

1:09:50

and support people living through chronic Or

1:09:53

trauma-induced mental illnesses. Wounded Birds

1:09:56

Ministry offers support groups and

1:09:58

educational resources to the. Though

1:10:00

they need according to Theresa, her mission

1:10:02

is to cloaked in passionately advocate. On

1:10:04

the true nature of mental illnesses. Encourage.

1:10:07

With hope. Prayer. And spiritual

1:10:09

insights and to support those who

1:10:11

live with either a chronic or

1:10:13

trauma related mental illness. Teresa's.

1:10:16

Own experiences with Bipolar disorder and

1:10:18

related traumas help her move beyond

1:10:20

the often. Simplistic. Answers

1:10:22

the Christian community offers for

1:10:25

mental. Illness. She loves to share hope,

1:10:27

knowledge, and skills that she'd learned along

1:10:29

her own journey to health. She. Ran

1:10:31

several support groups that cover variety of

1:10:33

topics including. Core. Skills for mental

1:10:36

illness and trauma groups related to sexual assault

1:10:38

and use. Abortion and

1:10:40

broken relationships. Theresa.

1:10:42

Is very open about her own mental illness

1:10:44

and how. The chaotic households

1:10:46

in which he was raised with

1:10:49

witnessing the pain that Michelle suffered

1:10:51

triggered her bipolar disorder and a

1:10:53

surprisingly early age of just ten

1:10:55

years old And though Michelle never

1:10:57

got the justice that she deserved.

1:11:00

Theresa. Works that others that they can avoid

1:11:02

going through the same suffering and her sister

1:11:04

did. And we will definitely have

1:11:07

the Wounded Birds Ministry links below for

1:11:09

those who would benefit from it or

1:11:11

know someone who could. Possibly benefit

1:11:13

from it. I just love when

1:11:16

families. Take a tragic loss

1:11:18

like this and tried to do something positive

1:11:20

for the world in their loved ones memory.

1:11:23

I. Truly such a beautiful way

1:11:25

to the honor those. Who. Leave

1:11:27

last and. In. All it takes

1:11:29

a lot of strength I think. In your

1:11:32

time of need and suffering. To.

1:11:34

To try to create a resource to

1:11:36

help others. So after. Looking.

1:11:39

At everything. Altogether,

1:11:43

Does it. You guys think there's any. Other.

1:11:45

Theories then. She.

1:11:48

Went to the close and I ultimately. Took.

1:11:51

Her life. I. Mean.

1:11:54

The. Family is never confirmed. Whether or not

1:11:56

they believe that. It certainly seems that

1:11:58

that's what they think. And.

1:12:01

Maybe. Though yeah, I

1:12:03

want it. You know, It's.

1:12:05

Hard because I don't wanna if they've

1:12:07

already accepted.and they know better than anyone

1:12:10

else. I normally go with

1:12:12

what the family believes and I will say

1:12:14

that. Above all else, I do

1:12:16

believe that. However, I'm not one

1:12:18

hundred percent convinced. I'm. Sure,

1:12:21

I. Just have a couple questions. Yeah, because

1:12:23

there's a couple things that stand out to

1:12:25

me. That. May

1:12:27

be. Point.

1:12:29

Two. Other

1:12:32

theories. For. One.

1:12:35

What? Do you guys think about the fact that she's

1:12:38

found naked? Vs

1:12:40

why wouldn't she found with what she

1:12:42

was wearing kill us? A very strange.

1:12:45

Point. As well unless she was.

1:12:48

More. People. She. Only

1:12:50

had like why wasn't any. She.

1:12:52

Was clearly about to go to a concert, so

1:12:55

she had have some type of clothing onramp. Yeah.

1:12:58

The Coat but I have heard of. He.

1:13:00

I don't know the statistics around it, but I

1:13:02

know I've heard of people committing suicide meet in

1:13:04

that syncing. I you bring that up because I

1:13:06

was actually my next point. I think we have

1:13:08

talked about. Other cases and the Me

1:13:11

as the for. Well here's what's interesting

1:13:13

about that. So. This information

1:13:15

is coming from Robert. Simon

1:13:17

who the former Clinical Professor Psychiatry and

1:13:19

Director Psychiatry in Law at Georgetown University

1:13:22

School of Medicine. He. Was

1:13:24

one of the form scholars and forensic

1:13:26

psychiatry in the study of suicide and

1:13:28

before his death until the sixteen he

1:13:30

released a a paper actually two thousand

1:13:32

a com naked suicide. Ah,

1:13:35

many offer some insight. About

1:13:38

people. You know,

1:13:40

making decisions and their life while naked? So

1:13:42

he says when it comes to women, Naked.

1:13:45

Suicide is considered exceptionally rare.

1:13:47

Due. To the popular concept of feminine

1:13:50

modesty carrying on even through death.

1:13:52

Conventional. Wisdom has it that a

1:13:54

woman found. Arm. hey naked

1:13:56

ah is most likely a homicide

1:13:58

or states you said, adding

1:14:01

that is not unheard of for women to hang themselves

1:14:04

or induce asphyxia by other means while naked.

1:14:06

A suicide victim's newsie could indicate a number

1:14:08

of things about their psychological state or reasons

1:14:10

for taking their own life. Some

1:14:12

of the psychological themes present

1:14:15

at naked suicides include the idea of rebirth

1:14:17

or cleansing, atonement for guilt or anger, and

1:14:20

the desire to traumatize survivors even further. Knowing

1:14:23

that one's body would be found naked and taking

1:14:25

the trouble to remove clothing has psychological import. The

1:14:28

state of an individual's clothing, including

1:14:30

partial undress and nakedness, can provide

1:14:32

important clues in a psychological autopsy.

1:14:35

Naked suicide can also be an expression

1:14:37

of vulnerability, utter despair, desolation, and worthlessness.

1:14:41

So, again, it goes back to it is

1:14:44

incredibly rare. With

1:14:47

this, I think

1:14:50

it's definitely more possible

1:14:53

because of who she was. She was very, as

1:14:55

her sister put it, she was kind of, you

1:14:57

know, she's kind of a hippie. And

1:15:01

I can definitely see her potentially

1:15:04

in those final moments having this thought of like,

1:15:06

I want to return, you

1:15:08

know, I want to leave this earth natural the

1:15:10

way that I came in, that whole thought, you

1:15:12

know. Yeah,

1:15:16

but my one issue with that is

1:15:20

where's her clothes and where's any of the

1:15:22

items that she was wearing prior to that

1:15:24

happening? Well, she could have put

1:15:27

them in the ocean. True. Very

1:15:30

true. That is a possibility. But

1:15:32

then why is her purse two miles away? That's

1:15:35

the other big question I have is why is

1:15:37

her purse over there? The drift test was done.

1:15:39

That didn't add up. I

1:15:42

agree with you. I mean, we can sit here and say she could

1:15:44

have done this. She could have done that. But

1:15:46

that's the frustrating part is no

1:15:48

one knows and we will probably never know. We

1:15:50

won't. Yeah, we

1:15:52

won't ever know likely. But

1:15:55

I do go back to she's talking

1:15:57

about a coworker. Stalking

1:16:00

her. And.

1:16:03

This. Person claims to have been

1:16:06

with her literally the day before. She.

1:16:09

Dies. Could.

1:16:11

He have been stalking her the

1:16:13

following day, maybe things in and.

1:16:16

The. Way that he wanted them to when they're

1:16:18

together. And therefore, he was angry. And.

1:16:21

Stalking her all of the next day

1:16:23

was was watching her like saw them

1:16:25

followed, enter to the heart or act

1:16:28

balder to the cliffs and he was

1:16:30

there with her at the cliffs path

1:16:32

and ultimately he. Tried. To

1:16:34

make advances on her. In.

1:16:36

Which. They. Have

1:16:38

you know a struggle or something happens? He

1:16:41

pushes or off the cliff. It

1:16:43

looks like it's a suicide. He then

1:16:45

goes in plants her purse. Or.

1:16:48

Throws her block the rest of her blinds

1:16:50

off with or takes them a me. I

1:16:52

could see a stalker like him taking something

1:16:54

of personal. Ah, Personally to

1:16:56

from her. And then

1:16:58

planting the. The purse there.

1:17:01

I mean. Like. I said

1:17:03

it is possible. I think it's.

1:17:06

Probably. Unlikely I keep going

1:17:08

back to her friend saying that.

1:17:11

He seemed to be. In

1:17:13

a bad had space and didn't want to go

1:17:15

home. She has her drop her off at the

1:17:17

beach. I think

1:17:19

it was hours leading up to this.

1:17:22

Could. Have been spanx which we don't know

1:17:24

exactly when it happened that could have been

1:17:26

sent university thing and thinking about things and.

1:17:30

Yeah. I mean, that's a voluntary.

1:17:33

Had it said had them but I think when

1:17:35

you. Look at the bigger picture.

1:17:38

On in there really isn't any evidence for that,

1:17:40

we don't even know that she was for sure

1:17:42

being sought, that's just what someone. And.

1:17:45

When you look at her lies and all

1:17:47

the trauma she went through and then having

1:17:50

leukemia on top of that, an addiction and

1:17:52

yeah, I mean, she lived in

1:17:54

incredibly troubled, traumatic life. And so

1:17:56

just to clarify to see did she had

1:17:59

told. Learn. About.

1:18:02

A powerful docker? Yeah, But.

1:18:04

Why you know? don't know fair from her.

1:18:06

Yeah, I guess they're probably telling the truth.

1:18:08

She probably did have a stalker. I

1:18:10

wish police would have. Followed.

1:18:13

Up on that and looked more into it.

1:18:16

I'm because again yeah it is. It

1:18:18

is possible that theory you you lay

1:18:20

out could could have happened. I just

1:18:22

in my mind think it's. A

1:18:24

lot less likely. Her. Bag was

1:18:26

there for twenty four hours, wasn't taken that

1:18:29

can. Happen to start doesn't. He

1:18:31

the lot of people caught. Up on not necessarily some

1:18:33

if it be weird if it was there for

1:18:36

a week. Yeah, like twenty. Four hours move around.

1:18:38

A lot of that is. During

1:18:40

the night bright in a we don't know

1:18:42

exactly. I guess he

1:18:44

did say within a popular populated area,

1:18:46

but still. When. For on and.long of

1:18:48

time. Or like I said, someone could have looked

1:18:50

in it and seen that there wasn't anything. Worth

1:18:53

taking to them and. I don't

1:18:55

think that's like I'm. Usually. Vital.

1:18:59

Piece I see where people are coming from. the i

1:19:01

don't know. I don't know. I

1:19:04

mean it doesn't really do any good to like go

1:19:06

too far down the murderer out at this point because.

1:19:09

She's. Gone the matter was.

1:19:11

hands. I do

1:19:13

agree with you that just her life story

1:19:15

so tragic and so horrible, insists there is

1:19:18

so much trauma there that. I.

1:19:21

Can imagine. Dealing with and

1:19:23

will your mental state would be like in a

1:19:25

i mean she's about to go to a concert

1:19:27

and you know maybe there is. Ah,

1:19:29

I'm in a may be. Substances:

1:19:32

Potentially. Now we don't

1:19:34

even know. Yeah, There

1:19:36

has been substances being used to. Maybe her mind

1:19:39

state was was just not. And

1:19:41

I mean, those can definitely mickey spiral. So

1:19:43

there's a lotta other factors that kind of.

1:19:47

When. You look at all together makes sense.

1:19:49

On. But. I just I was

1:19:52

worth. Mentioning. This. Know.

1:19:55

How I wish I wish they had. I just

1:19:57

wish. authorities would look at everything

1:20:00

just a little bit deeper and just consider, well,

1:20:03

it seems very clear what

1:20:05

this is, but is there a possibility based

1:20:07

on other evidence or

1:20:10

interviews we've done with people that knew her

1:20:12

to suggest there could have been somebody who

1:20:14

would want to harm her? Well,

1:20:16

above all else, it's the failure of the

1:20:18

medical examiner who called,

1:20:20

Yeah. Called it so early on,

1:20:23

was so confident in it, when

1:20:25

he had no idea what the fuck he

1:20:27

was talking about. No, literally lying about. The

1:20:30

police followed his lead. His information, yeah.

1:20:32

True. Again, probably

1:20:34

multiple failings on this case that may

1:20:36

or may not have gotten

1:20:38

us all the facts, all the information, and maybe

1:20:40

there is more to this case than what we

1:20:42

know. Well, there is for

1:20:44

sure, but as far as like murder or

1:20:47

somebody else being involved. Yeah,

1:20:49

I mean, either way you cite it, she

1:20:52

was failed majorly. Even if it was a

1:20:54

suicide, she was failed horribly by the Catholic

1:20:57

church. I understand where her parents

1:21:00

and they're traumatized by it

1:21:02

too, by the church and

1:21:04

what they've been through. Obviously they

1:21:06

feel horrible regret now, but a lot

1:21:08

of adults failed her in her life.

1:21:11

And yeah, it's just

1:21:13

beyond tragic. I really just feel

1:21:16

for her and this family. And I'm

1:21:20

glad that they've been able

1:21:22

to accept that

1:21:26

in their minds, she's at peace now. I

1:21:29

know that that probably means the world

1:21:31

to them. Although they did say that it's

1:21:34

peace that they will never have. It's

1:21:36

heartbreaking. It's just horrible. It

1:21:40

absolutely is. Really not much else to say

1:21:42

about it. Yeah. Well,

1:21:44

we definitely wanna hear from all of you on

1:21:47

your thoughts on this case. What makes the most sense to you?

1:21:51

Let us know in the comments. Absolutely.

1:21:54

That is gonna be it for us today. We

1:21:57

will be back next week to discuss

1:21:59

another case. And until then,

1:22:01

keep on taking your mind a mile higher.

1:22:04

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