0:14

Hey. What's up everybody? and. Welcome

0:16

back to my Her Podcast episode Two

0:19

Hundred and Ninety Six I am your

0:21

Her candle. And I'm your host or us And

0:23

we're joined. By our producer Janell. Everyone.

0:25

Today we're diving into. The. Case

0:28

of a While women's and Julie

0:30

Williams They were murdered in the

0:32

Shenandoah National Park in Nineteen Ninety

0:34

Six. In this case is still.

0:37

Unsolved to this day. It's.

0:39

Been a little while since we've covered a

0:41

case. It's taken place in the national park,

0:43

but the National Park. Missing. Persons

0:45

cases and murder cases are some of the

0:48

most. Crazy. In my

0:50

opinion because if there's any

0:52

place for somebody to commit.

0:55

A. Heinous crime. Like. What

0:57

happened to all the and Julie the

0:59

national parks? Kr. The place to do

1:01

it for a number of different reasons. It's.

1:04

Crazy to me that a place that

1:06

is frequented by so many people every

1:08

single year. Doesn't. Have

1:11

seemingly the security.

1:14

Required to protect the amount of visitors

1:16

that her go in and out of

1:18

these parks were surveillance would. Be a

1:20

huge challenge. I mean, there's Huge. Yeah.

1:23

Huge expanses of lands and also the

1:25

budgets. The federal budgets for the national

1:27

parks continues get slashed, and obviously there's

1:30

a lot more. Involved.

1:32

Those they animals, the you know, force and

1:34

things like that all need. yeah, need money

1:36

as well. But. It is

1:38

in sales doing a little research and

1:40

as we've talked about in other episodes

1:42

before especially like the Missing for one

1:44

one starve a Dr or David Politest

1:46

has done a bunch of research into

1:48

the missing persons cases a National Park

1:50

Systems In the fact that the National

1:52

Park Service doesn't even. Keep. Track:

1:55

Ah a log of. The.

1:57

amount of people go missing and even the amount

2:00

of people that are victims

2:02

of crime within national parks. There's some data

2:04

out there and on average,

2:07

it actually looks like 15 people

2:09

are murdered in our national parks every single

2:11

year. It goes up or down depending on

2:13

the year, but on average, there's 15 murders

2:16

and many of these cases are unsolved. And

2:19

I think one of the biggest

2:21

reasons why these cases go unsolved is

2:23

the jurisdictional issues inside of the

2:26

national parks because it's federal land, so

2:29

local state law enforcement don't

2:31

have jurisdiction there and it falls under the National

2:34

Park Service, which as we've talked about

2:36

in the past, they do have their

2:38

own investigative branch and they have their

2:40

own special agents, but for the amount

2:42

of sheer land mass that is comprised

2:44

within these parks and the number of

2:46

people there, it is a small, small

2:48

number of basically security,

2:50

police agents, whatever you wanna

2:52

call it, that exists to

2:55

investigate these cases. So oftentimes, you have to

2:57

get the FBI involved, but there's

2:59

a good possibility that the people you need to

3:01

look at are the ones outside

3:04

of the park, just outside of the park. And so there's a lot

3:06

of issues between federal law enforcement

3:08

and state and local law enforcement figuring

3:10

out who's investigating these cases and we'll

3:12

see that a lot today with

3:15

the unsolved murders of Lolly and

3:17

Julie. Yeah, I think killers definitely

3:19

take advantage of

3:22

that setup and then the fact, as well,

3:25

that people are out there and they

3:27

wanna be as secluded as possible from

3:29

others and have this experience with nature.

3:31

And so oftentimes, there are no witnesses,

3:33

there's no one around, people don't know

3:35

that something has happened for days. And

3:37

so all those factors contribute to the

3:40

rate of unsolved cases in these national parks.

3:42

Yeah, not only that, but it's also out

3:44

in the wild, it's in the wilderness. So

3:46

crime scenes are often destroyed in a matter

3:49

of hours or days, depending on

3:51

the weather. I mean, there's animals, there's all

3:53

sorts of other factors that make investigating these

3:55

types of crimes far more

3:57

difficult. And so this

3:59

case... is one in

4:01

particular that definitely needs some renewed

4:03

coverage on. Yeah, they're still looking for tips

4:06

and hoping to solve it, although it's been

4:08

a long time. Yeah, it has been

4:10

a long time. But there

4:13

was a book that was written by

4:15

Catherine Miles, a journalist who's actually a

4:17

professor of Lolly's,

4:20

Lolly's back in the day, who

4:23

wrote a book called Traled, and she went into tons

4:25

and tons of detail and got access to a

4:28

lot of different documents that we didn't

4:30

get access to, obviously, for research on

4:32

this episode. But if you want a

4:35

real, real in-depth deep dive

4:37

down all the different rabbit

4:39

holes and a more expansive

4:41

look at some of the suspects, it's a great

4:43

book. It's on Audible as well. We'll

4:47

link it below. But we're going to try to, this

4:49

is a vast investigation that

4:51

has expanded, been over

4:54

a number of years. And so

4:56

we tried to get all of

4:58

the components that we could to put

5:01

it in a concise timeline

5:03

for you. But a

5:06

very interesting and a very sad

5:08

and honestly disturbing

5:12

case at the same time. So it

5:14

is very brutal what happened to Lolly

5:16

and Julie. Yeah, especially in such a beautiful

5:18

place. I mean, the Shenandoah National Park looks

5:21

stunning. Yeah, Appalachian Mountains. And

5:23

sometimes I feel bad even

5:26

discussing that these types of things can

5:28

happen, because I don't want to scare people out there

5:30

and stop them or make

5:32

them afraid to go out and camp and

5:34

explore these beautiful parks. But I do think

5:36

it's important to bring these things up, because

5:39

the more prepared you can be, if

5:42

you're going to be out there, the better, right?

5:45

It's just, I know it. It's good to know

5:47

that what's actually going on and

5:49

what has happened in these places so

5:51

that you're better prepared or

5:53

just aware of your surroundings. And I

5:55

mean, in this case, I don't really, based

5:58

on the evidence, I don't know really what. that they could have done,

6:02

because whoever killed them did

6:04

it in the middle of the night, it seems. Yeah,

6:07

definitely. But it just kind of

6:09

brings that whole fear of, not

6:11

only being out in the wilderness, and there's a

6:14

lot of crazy, you go on TikTok and there's

6:16

all these wild stories of, beasts

6:20

and things that lurk in the woods, but

6:24

really the biggest predator is other

6:26

human beings. So

6:29

yeah, a very sad case, but

6:31

a very important one at that. Yeah,

6:33

I definitely am glad that

6:35

we're doing this episode and

6:37

talking about these two. They were both

6:39

incredible young women, and it's just very,

6:42

very sad to think about the

6:44

way that their lives were stolen from them, and that

6:46

there's been no justice for their loved ones to

6:49

this day. And some

6:51

definite missteps by the government and

6:53

law enforcement for sure. So let's

6:56

start by digging into the

6:58

background of Lolly Winans.

7:01

So Laura Salisbury or Lolly Winans was

7:03

born on March 9th, 1970. She

7:07

was the daughter of a wealthy family

7:10

from Grosse Pointe, Michigan, which

7:12

is a very wealthy suburb

7:14

in Metro Detroit. Grosse Pointe

7:16

is incredibly affluent, and

7:18

they have a lot of

7:20

historical architecture and modern suburban

7:23

amenities. And though she grew

7:25

up comfortably, Lolly really rejected

7:27

her family's wealthy suburban lifestyle

7:30

and often sort of

7:32

resented her origins. She seemed to be

7:34

really open with her friends about her

7:37

dislike for her hometown. She

7:39

was definitely a free-spirited person

7:42

and described as exceptionally down-to-earth,

7:44

and she definitely was from

7:46

everything we've gathered. And

7:48

many never guessed that Lolly came from

7:50

such affluent beginnings because she was so

7:53

chill and so down-to-earth. Her

7:55

friends said that she didn't meld well with

7:57

the stuffy surroundings of her hometown and after grad

7:59

school. high school, she set her

8:02

eyes on getting away. Now, Lolly was

8:04

a brilliant young woman and

8:06

very socially conscious. She

8:08

cared deeply about the environment and was

8:10

very in touch with nature and these

8:13

natural affinities led her to apply

8:15

it to Sterling College in Craftsbury,

8:17

Vermont where she had become a

8:19

wilderness guide. Lolly had no

8:21

issue being accepted and quickly transitioned

8:23

from life in Michigan to life

8:25

in Vermont. Very different. And

8:28

the college really matched Lolly's personality

8:30

well. Sterling College really focuses

8:32

heavily on experiential learning

8:35

and created community focused

8:37

on social justice, food

8:39

sustainability, and ecological thinking.

8:42

Many classes and events allowed students

8:44

to go outdoors, sounds amazing, and

8:46

connect with nature and Lolly really

8:49

loved that about Sterling. However,

8:51

things in Vermont didn't actually go

8:53

well for long. You see, Lolly had

8:55

dealt with a lot of childhood trauma while

8:57

away from home According to her

8:59

friends and family, she had been sexually

9:02

abused as a child by a trusted

9:04

adult, which is how it normally goes.

9:07

And unfortunately, it didn't seem like

9:09

Lolly was given the appropriate means

9:11

to really heal from that mental

9:13

trauma that it all caused her. So

9:16

as she began life in Vermont, this new

9:18

life, Lolly had fallen into

9:20

a depression and struggled with her

9:22

drinking. Eventually, she did drop

9:24

out of Sterling and the next few years were

9:27

filled with poor decisions and a lot

9:29

of stress. Lolly met and married a man.

9:31

She also took in a teenage

9:33

sex offender into her home and,

9:36

like we said, struggled with alcohol.

9:38

She thought that chewing kindness to this

9:41

teen would help her kind of overcome

9:43

her own trauma, but that wasn't the

9:45

case. And eventually, Lolly did

9:47

recognize that she needed therapy and got

9:49

her life back on track. She moved

9:52

six hours east to Maine and

9:54

began attending college at Unity College,

9:56

which is another liberal arts college that's

9:58

focused on the environment. there she

10:00

once again trained to become a passion

10:04

and goal in life and she really worked

10:08

to help women like her heal from

10:10

sexual and violent trauma. She volunteered at

10:12

a rape crisis hotline and organized hikes

10:14

for women who were survivors of sexual

10:16

assault and she interned with

10:18

Woods Women which is really cool.

10:21

It's a Minnesota nonprofit organization focused

10:23

on education and adventure. They

10:25

held courses and events where women could

10:28

learn outdoor safety and hobbies from other

10:30

women. An organization was started in

10:32

1977 and by the time it closed doors in 1999

10:34

it hosted 59

10:37

domestic and 11 international nature

10:40

trips for women. While she was

10:42

an intern she assisted on canoe

10:44

trips and on one of these trips she met

10:46

the love of her life, Julianne

10:49

Williams. Born on September 11th, 1971 Julianne

10:51

Williams and you know we're referred to

10:53

as Julie that was what she went

10:55

by was the second oldest of Tom

10:57

and Patsy Williams daughters. Julie grew up

10:59

in St. Cloud, Minnesota where she excelled

11:01

in academics and sports such as basketball

11:03

and in tennis. In 1989

11:06

she even became a Minnesota state

11:08

doubles champion. Julie attended Cathedral High

11:10

School until her graduation in 1990

11:13

after which she attended Carleton College

11:15

in Northfield, Minnesota. At Carleton College

11:17

Julie began focusing on social justice

11:19

issues. She took great pride

11:21

in her activism and utilized her pride

11:23

personality and intelligence to help educate and

11:25

uplift those around her. Some of her

11:27

college friends even referred to her as

11:29

one person Peace Corps. In 1994

11:31

Julie graduated cum laude with a degree

11:34

in geology. Still she often

11:36

went to campus to volunteer and attend

11:38

activities that aided ecological and social change.

11:40

One of her professors Mary Savina described

11:42

Julie as quote a catalyst

11:44

for change and said whenever Julie had

11:47

choices she chose a path that

11:49

valued people which has saying a lot coming

11:51

from other people you know. An intense passion

11:53

for helping others and natural empathy are just

11:55

two things that Julie and Lolly had in

11:58

common. Passion

12:00

for the outdoors and wanted to maintain the

12:02

environment. This love led her to a women's

12:04

canoeing excursion through Woods Women where she met

12:07

Lolly Winans. The canoeing trip took place in

12:09

the summer of Ninety Ninety Five, and by

12:11

a complete coincidence, Lolly and Julie shared a

12:13

tent during excursion along with a third woman.

12:16

During the day they work together, they traverse

12:18

the water in their canoe. And. By

12:20

the evening the two women hit it off as

12:22

he talked about their shared interest in discuss details

12:24

about their lives. Lolly new the to had chemistry

12:27

but being open about that was new to both

12:29

women. While. Always realization that she

12:31

was attracted to women seem to come quickly.

12:34

Really struggle with the idea. Before.

12:36

She met lolly shit rt Question or

12:38

Sex Lowry, but felt that the concept

12:40

of being lesbian didn't mess with her

12:42

strict religious upbringing. After college,

12:44

Julie moved to Richmond, Vermont and organize a

12:46

church group. With. Local women to discuss

12:48

her questions about herself and her religion safely.

12:51

When she met Lolly, Julie had reconciled her

12:53

issues and was ready begin her really sure

12:55

what with her new partner those the first

12:57

series lesbian really ship for the both of

12:59

them. They. Quickly sell Deep in love

13:01

with the motivation she found from Julie Lolly.

13:03

Return Unique College and finished her final semester

13:05

with a four point Oh G P A

13:08

As a to return to their lives he

13:10

tried of his each other as often as

13:12

possible. Every few weeks one of the women

13:14

traveled to visit the other where they would

13:16

relax together. Had our on a phone excursion.

13:19

While. I had been opened her friends

13:21

about the relationship. Julia's little slower coming

13:23

out. This is a very surprising although

13:26

the public reception around Lgbt community was

13:28

slowly improving and colleges were becoming more

13:30

inclusive. Duralde. Is the eighties

13:32

and nineties were an incredibly dangerous time. For.

13:35

Openly clear individuals. Is.

13:37

Seen that Julie didn't feel entirely safe

13:39

to express or her sexuality publicly. We're.

13:42

Sensing a bother? Lolly, who had always

13:44

been an incredibly understanding person. Besides.

13:47

Neither the women had told her

13:49

parents about their relationship. This.

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really to let know we since you. So.

16:00

By early Nineteen Ninety Six, the to

16:02

them are really getting into the groove

16:04

of their relationship. They decided to move

16:06

in together and found a home in

16:09

Huntington, Vermont and the two of them

16:11

even shared a golden retriever who is

16:13

adorable his name was Ties. And.

16:15

They finally felt like they had created

16:17

this perfect little family and life together.

16:19

Julie had even landed her dream job

16:22

in the state! She had received a

16:24

grant to conduct hydrology research on Lake

16:26

Champlain. And she was supposed

16:28

to begin her research that summer and the

16:30

two of them had celebrated Julius. New

16:32

career in May by visiting

16:35

Shenandoah National Park in Virginia.

16:37

And the to them set up a

16:39

rough camp in the back country, but

16:41

the location wasn't quite as rough as

16:43

it sounds. All. They camped in a

16:45

much more secluded location. They were only two

16:48

hundred fifty yards away from the same as

16:50

Skyline Drive. Which. Has a stunning road

16:52

that passes through the park. The camp

16:54

was near a creek and a short

16:56

walk from Skyline Lodge which. Is a

16:58

resting point for those exploring the parks

17:00

trails. And Julie and Lolly were. Seen

17:03

hiking with ties on May twenty

17:05

fourth. And they were in high

17:07

spirits and seem to be enjoying the

17:09

trip. A few days later Taj was

17:11

spotted. Wandering. The trails

17:13

alone. So not. A good sign.

17:16

And when Julie's family and heard from

17:18

her by May thirty first. They. Reported

17:20

the two of them missing. It

17:22

was very challenging for Tom Williams who

17:24

is Julie. Started to really grasp

17:26

the situation because he had just

17:29

seen. His daughter in a prompt Julie

17:31

and her sister had spent time with

17:33

him to celebrate Easter down in Florida

17:35

and Tom remembered. How great the

17:37

trip had been and how sad he

17:40

was when his daughters flew back to

17:42

Vermont. But. Still, he knew he would you

17:44

know, make time to see her again soon and and

17:46

hope to hear about. Julie's amazing new job!

17:48

However, he knew that something had to be

17:50

wrong when the women did not return from

17:53

their camping trip because there was just no

17:55

way that they chose to simply not come

17:57

home. So at that point, Tom alerted the

17:59

Us. Already eve and park. Rangers quickly began

18:01

searching for the two of them and

18:03

found their car parks just north of

18:06

Scotland Lodge. Rangers. Were hopeful that

18:08

the women had simply decided. To extend

18:10

their stays, but to the search

18:12

seriously. Nonetheless, it isn't uncommon for

18:14

campers become lost or injured and

18:16

state parks of course and rangers

18:18

had no way to determine how

18:20

skilled the women were when it

18:22

came to being outdoors. However, their

18:24

friends and family knew that Julian

18:26

Lolly really could navigate toss forested

18:29

areas and they are trying to

18:31

hold out hope. But on the

18:33

evening a May Thirty First suffered

18:35

extensive search of the trails and

18:37

quarters near the Sky Lamb Lodge.

18:39

The. Park Rangers had found something

18:42

concerning. Deputy. Chief Park Ranger

18:44

Bridget Burnett of Do The Family that

18:46

evening that while they had of sound

18:48

Julie or Lolly they had found Taj

18:50

on least and wondering alone in the

18:52

Park Blvd. continue on a show you

18:54

a quick clip from when all is

18:56

hop in of a park ranger explaining

18:58

how Julian always permits, helps investors narrow

19:00

the search and. Law. Officials say this is

19:03

an isolated incident. Hikers now aren't taking

19:05

any chances filling out there back country

19:07

permits. It was this clue that led

19:09

rangers to the victims. And

19:11

that permit then gave us

19:13

an idea of about when

19:15

they would be in the

19:18

park and their approximate location.

19:20

And so are. There is one reason that

19:22

we they were. Sound so quickly. so

19:24

obviously as you just heard you know

19:26

they. Were. Doing some searching the

19:29

permits are actually help them. Figure.

19:31

Out the general area though they were

19:34

and and also the area that they

19:36

searched in was worked hard was found

19:38

their dog and on the evening of

19:40

June first Ninety Nine Six the Park

19:42

Rangers went down a popular horse trail

19:44

called Bridal Trail I believed near the

19:47

Skyline Lodge and that's when they found

19:49

Julian Lollies Campsite. The camp was in

19:51

a terrible state. There. Is trash

19:53

and clothing strewn about. Their bright yellow

19:55

hat was partially collapsed. At the time

19:58

the park regulated that back country camp

20:00

avoid camping near major trails are they

20:02

would disrupt the scenery for passing tourists.

20:05

Julian. Lolly, we're very aware of these

20:07

rules and constructed their camps for that was

20:09

not visible from the passing trails. was this

20:11

may explain why nobody found the horrifying site

20:13

before the Park Rangers over the busy Memorial

20:16

weekend. they're inside. The partially collapsed hat was

20:18

Lollies body wrapped in her sleeping bag, bound

20:20

and gagged with duct tape. A few feet

20:22

away in the trees was Julie's body wrapped

20:25

in her sleeping bag. both of them brutalize

20:27

in. There is apparent trauma to their bodies.

20:29

Their Obama tape and both of their throats

20:31

have been slashed immediately. The area was cordoned

20:33

off in an intense investigation. Into the crime

20:36

was launched. This is also when the Special Agents

20:38

of the National Park Service and Basket Of Services

20:40

branch started working a case which of you're not

20:42

familiar with that we've mentioned in other. Episodes

20:45

but safely the police force for the

20:47

National Park Service. However, the public was

20:49

unaware of the incident thirty six hours

20:51

after the discovery. It's thought that

20:53

this was the time it took for the F

20:55

B I to get called in and arrive on

20:58

scene. But regardless of the reason, people in the

21:00

area where very upset by the decision not to

21:02

tell the public because in their minds and rightfully

21:04

so, a killer could still be on the loose

21:06

and Shenandoah. And. Nobody cared about

21:09

protecting others' an area from suffering

21:11

from a similar fate. Here's a

21:13

group, the campers being interviewed amidst

21:15

the investigation. Early morning

21:17

in the sun and a national park. Ethan

21:19

Winter and Unicycle are still running the sleep

21:22

out of their eyes when they learn about

21:24

the murders. Oh, and that that doesn't

21:26

happen. And national parks. At.

21:28

All really does Minas store

21:30

their. It isn't known as the

21:32

decision to wait was made because National Park Service

21:35

agents for waiting for the F B I derive,

21:37

but the F B I was indeed required to

21:39

take over the case. Though park Rangers and you

21:41

know that as Park service, police are highly trained

21:43

in navigating the park and investing crimes that occur

21:46

in the park. National Parks fall under Federal jurisdiction,

21:48

so. In a local, police

21:50

sometimes assists. state police, sometimes assess

21:52

these cases, but again, it's the

21:55

primary responsibility of Us federal authorities

21:57

to. Investigate these cases.

22:00

While the rangers and the National Parks

22:02

or Police were utilized in the investigation

22:04

along with Stay Please, the Federal government

22:06

made all the significant decisions. The. F

22:08

B. I collected all evidence but quickly pointed out

22:10

that there is little remaining evidence at the scene

22:12

to pinpoint a culprit and the other fact was

22:15

at the women were from the area and didn't

22:17

seem to have enemies. Meaning. That

22:19

the attack appeared random, which always makes

22:21

it more difficult to investigate. They're.

22:23

Worse include left behind the scenes. The.

22:26

Duct tape found on the women had hair

22:28

stuck inside that didn't belong to either victim.

22:30

A. Glove that didn't belong to the women was

22:32

also found at the crime scene. Inside investigators

22:34

found hair that match the hair on the

22:37

duct tape. Another piece of evidence

22:39

sound the crime scene Helped investors put together

22:41

a loose timeline of events. A. Camera

22:43

the women have been using to document their

22:45

trip and unfortunately we don't have. Any

22:48

of the photos to show you from that

22:50

stole all. Still. Classified, but.

22:53

I'm. I. Assume there's probably.

22:55

Some. Things in there that least helped establish

22:57

you know what their trip had been like

22:59

as far as a timeline goes. So

23:01

here is the timeline that the As the

23:03

I was able to put together based on

23:06

those photos and also from like details they

23:08

were able to gather from witnesses in the

23:10

area. So. On May nineteenth, Julian

23:12

Ali arrived at Shenandoah. They went the

23:14

woods and set up their. Camp didn't

23:16

emerged in their camp for a

23:19

couple of days and then around

23:21

May twenty first. A storm

23:23

force the women to leave their camp

23:25

and hitch a ride with a park

23:27

ranger to a lives there. They renewed

23:29

their camping permit and way it out the

23:32

rain before they returned to set up

23:34

a new Can't. Based. On the

23:36

site isn't a camera. the women climbed

23:38

Hawksbill Mountain and made their final camp

23:40

near a stream of the Appalachian Trail.

23:42

Then, the two of were last seen

23:44

hiking on the Twenty Fourth of May,

23:46

and within forty eight hours of that,

23:48

citing it's lead, they were brutally murdered

23:51

at their campsite. After identifying their

23:53

bodies and best years determine that

23:55

Julie was found. Thirty feet away

23:57

from their tents and she was

23:59

actually. Found no wrapped in her sleeping

24:01

bag which gave investigators the impression that

24:03

maybe she had been dragged out of

24:06

her turns while she was sleeping. In,

24:08

it's really upsetting, but both women were

24:10

gagged and their hands were wrapped in

24:13

duct tape. But what's really strange? His

24:15

Dna evidence suggested that the keep on

24:17

Molly's wrists and first and place over.

24:20

Julie's mouth. however,

24:22

It's unclear to everyone far as I

24:24

know why the killer? It's hose to

24:26

purpose the tape and I've I've been

24:28

trying. To trying to think about this and I

24:30

couldn't come up with any reason as to why.

24:33

They would have done that war. I

24:35

think what this indicates is that this

24:37

attack was very, very fast. And

24:40

I think everything happened so quickly

24:42

that the killer was obviously worried

24:44

about them making noise. And.

24:47

So I think the priority was to

24:49

get tape over the mouth. And.

24:51

Per how he laid out of tape or got

24:54

around to pay for couldn't rip off new tape

24:56

so they decide to read purpose a tape. Because.

24:58

It's also Sing.lollies ankles are bound

25:01

with a pair of long thermal

25:03

underwear, while Julie's ankles have been

25:05

down with duct tape and sources

25:07

have. Offered other conflicting information

25:09

on Julie's and Lollies time of death as

25:11

well. Some sources say that the women were

25:13

killed on the evening of the Twenty Fourth

25:16

of May, and others say that the two

25:18

of them had been. Deceased for forty

25:20

to seventy two hours before discoveries.

25:22

Almost right off the bat when

25:24

news first broke. About their murders,

25:26

a lot of speculation. Started

25:29

around the case naturally users and when

25:31

me whenever there's unknown information people. Want.

25:34

To try to sell in the blanks. and one

25:36

of the big things that people wondered about. Was.

25:38

Why their dog ties was

25:41

left unharmed it seemed unlikely.

25:43

That this random attacker would choose a

25:45

couple that is in the company of

25:47

a large dogs. And. I lied

25:49

many people to think that whoever kills the two

25:52

of them. May have met them

25:54

previously. And befriended the dog. It

25:56

seems comfortable with them, which that to me

25:58

doesn't really make sense. The way because

26:00

it doesn't matter if you had befriended the

26:02

dog before, if you start attacking their own

26:05

or the dog is going to. Probably.

26:07

React. But we have to keep in mind that this is

26:09

a golden. Retriever. You have a nice

26:11

dogs. Yeah, this isn't a guard

26:14

dog and it's very possible that

26:16

the killer just released the dog

26:18

are scared the dog off. And.

26:20

Has just ran away and fear. But others

26:22

begin to speculate that the women were victims

26:25

of a hate crime. The women were out

26:27

to many people in their lives with journalists

26:29

begin to speculate about them. The media

26:31

ass Julian always friends about their sexuality but

26:33

most remained tight lipped. out of respect for

26:35

the to see says you should. Have.

26:37

Or one journalist contacted a friend

26:40

of Julie's Reverend Rebecca Straighter. Are

26:42

Back in form. The journalists at the Pair

26:44

were meant a couple, which many found distasteful.

26:47

Rebecca. Defending herself and clarify that she hadn't

26:49

out of the women out of spy or malice.

26:51

Instead she want to ensure that the gay community

26:54

was aware of the crime and one to help

26:56

keep them safe. As the murder could

26:58

have been a hate crime. With this realization,

27:00

investigators did have to consider the possibility. But

27:02

still, there's no way to know if the

27:04

women were targeted. For. Their sexuality

27:06

based on the crime scene alone. The.

27:08

Reality is is that somebody could have sought the

27:10

women. Some could have spotted them and sounded good

27:13

Opportunity for violence. Or they could

27:15

have straight up target them because of their

27:17

sexuality. But without an interview with the culprit

27:19

or living witness, there's no way to know.

27:22

Others who learned about the murder of Julian

27:24

Molly unsullied your connections to the Colonial Parkway

27:26

murders. With. The Coil Parkway Murray's

27:28

were set of serial murders that took place

27:31

between Nineteen Eighty Six and Nineteen Eighty Nine.

27:33

And. As a name implies, these killings took

27:35

place long the Colonial Parkway. Which. Is

27:38

a twenty two mile long road that

27:40

cuts through the Colonial National Historical Park

27:42

in Virginia. The. Park is approximately

27:44

one hundred forty five miles from our

27:46

Julian Lolly were killed. At the

27:48

time of Julian Lollies murder, there are eight

27:50

known death at the hands of the Colonial

27:52

Parkway murderer. The. Victims are found in

27:55

pairs as the ammo the killer with define a

27:57

couple. Sitting. In their car and the parkway

27:59

and murder them. The causes of death and

28:01

these murders and cruz strangulation, stabbing and gunshots.

28:03

And in each of the cases there is

28:05

no evidence of burglary or sexual assault. It

28:08

is important to note that this string of

28:10

killings and all speculated so she murders after

28:12

Nineteen Eighty Nine. Are. Only

28:15

connected circumstantially. Though.

28:17

The F B I stayed in Twenty Twenty Four

28:19

that they are able to connect to the original

28:21

death to a man named Allen Warmer Senior who

28:23

died in sudden seventeen. The. Rest of

28:25

the associated murders have never officially been linked

28:27

to Al and. At a time

28:29

of Julian Lollies.the F B I did not believe

28:32

their deaths are related to the Colonial Parkway killer.

28:34

As or murders deviated to significantly from

28:36

the killers. Typical ammo, a funny couples

28:38

and car Start the long decline your

28:41

parkway. However, others can to help a

28:43

consider one of the couples murdered on the Coil Parkway.

28:45

Rebecca. Dow Ski who's twenty one in Cassie

28:48

Thomas who's twenty Seven. The women were in

28:50

a relationship and they were found in a

28:52

vehicle that appear to have veered off the

28:54

road and too dense shrubs. Dos or found

28:56

the vehicle. discover the women's dead bodies inside.

28:58

The. Women were found with wrote burns on her

29:01

next and rest and had signs of strangulation.

29:03

Both women had their throat slashed so

29:05

my that they were nearly decapitated. Though.

29:08

The women in a vehicle were Dalston diesel fuel

29:10

the murder had not attempted set them on fire.

29:13

There. Was also no evidence of sexual assault on

29:15

the women and there appear to be nothing missing

29:17

from the vehicle. They. Found jewelry,

29:19

money, and both women's purses inside

29:21

the vehicle. But. Despite the speculation, there

29:23

is no evidence to connect the crimes. So.

29:26

Far the first year following their murders,

29:28

kids were rolling in like crazy enough

29:30

that scares that they worked there are

29:32

thousands of them. But. They. All

29:34

lead to know new leads unfortunately and

29:36

with a lack. Of physical evidence and witnesses

29:38

and as heaters really had little to go

29:41

on to find the women's killer, A reward

29:43

add twenty five thousand dollars was offered for

29:45

any information that can lead to a conviction.

29:47

the case that still in that case. We're

29:50

no closer to actually finding a

29:52

suspect. There. Were more Did bring in

29:54

more tips however. badness. Here's. Where really far

29:56

from the truth? However, a

29:58

little over a year after

30:00

Julian Ali were brutally slain,

30:02

it seemed plausible. That the suspect

30:04

was in reach in July of

30:06

Ninety Ninety Seven, a. Really scary

30:08

incident occurred at the Shenandoah National Park.

30:11

A Canadian tourist name your Von Maur

30:13

Bosh. I was riding bikes with

30:15

friends along the Shenandoah Skyline Drive

30:17

and she became separated from her

30:19

group but wasn't lost. And while

30:21

she admired the Blue Ridge views

30:23

and. Sought out her party. A man

30:26

driving a. Truck. Suddenly forced her

30:28

off the road. You've on!

30:30

Told police that the man scream profanity

30:32

that her exit his vehicle. clearly enraged

30:34

and he tried to force her inside

30:36

of his vehicle but she threw a

30:38

water bottle at him and rent the

30:40

tree line using her bike and a

30:42

to help block the man. From getting

30:44

to her, the man continued to

30:46

scream sexually explicit percent that her

30:49

before returning to his truck and

30:51

attempting to run over her numerous

30:53

times. Eventually this guy. Sped.

30:56

Away from the scene and move. On quickly reported the

30:58

crime to a nearby park ranger. And

31:00

the man luckily was stopped before

31:02

leaving the park and identified as

31:05

Darryl. David was. Inside.

31:07

His vehicle investigators discovered hand and

31:09

leg restraints now their own was

31:12

a single man in his late

31:14

twenties with no kids and no

31:16

previous criminal records. He. Was from

31:18

Charlottesville, Virginia and had recently been fired from

31:21

his job for creating. A hostile work

31:23

environment. Just listen to what this

31:25

guy would do. According to his

31:27

former coworkers, he was known to

31:29

yell sexual. Percent A that them for definitely

31:31

falls in line with what you on with

31:33

things. He would punch walls in the bathroom

31:36

and he did a so hard that he

31:38

would actually be holes. He would steal

31:40

his coworkers lunches, intentionally run into people

31:42

so that they would spill their drinks,

31:44

and was even caught carrying a female

31:47

coworkers photo from the wall. And

31:49

then throwing it in the trash. It

31:51

was determines pretty clearly that Darryl had

31:54

an extreme contempt for women's and he

31:56

was quickly arrested and charged with the

31:58

attempted abduction of if I'm Albasha To

32:00

Trial began and Ninety Ninety Eight and

32:03

Daryl pled guilty to attempted abduction. He

32:05

was sentenced to one. Hundred and Thirty

32:07

five months in a Virginia federal prison

32:09

Now during. Gerald Interviews and Ninety

32:11

Ninety Seven. He said some strange

32:13

things. That led the F B. I did think

32:15

that maybe. He was involved in the

32:17

deaths of Julie and Lawley. Sterile.

32:20

Made statements the police about hating women

32:22

and wanting to ruin their days as

32:24

be I Investigators took a second look

32:26

at the Ninety Ninety Six video footage.

32:28

Recorded of the park entrance at

32:30

Front Royal. And a phone. Daryl

32:33

Rice had entered the park at a o

32:35

five Pm on May Twenty Fifth. Ninety Ninety

32:37

Six. He also entered the park

32:39

at the Rockfish Fab at four fifty

32:41

seven Pm on May. Twenty Six. Ninety

32:43

Ninety Six. and he wasn't seen

32:46

returning to his vehicle until June

32:48

first. So investigators. Question Daryl but he

32:50

claimed he was never in the park on

32:52

May twenty Fifth and Twenty Six. Though

32:54

he did admit. Being in the

32:56

park with his friends on June

32:58

first. And during your interview with

33:00

their own investigators in Julian Lollies murders, asked

33:03

the man if he had ever heard of

33:05

their case and he told them that he

33:07

had only heard that the women were lesbians,

33:09

but when asked about what he thought the

33:12

killer may have thought during the crime, he

33:14

said quote. He could be thinking

33:16

the same thing. I'm thinking. About like

33:18

people at work.dot.nagging on me.

33:21

You know, dot dot dot

33:23

thinking about that so heat?

33:25

yes. Possibly. But.

33:28

It won't explain more. His.

33:31

His friends and family don't think that

33:33

he was hateful towards Yeah, but that's

33:35

disputed Yeah, big time. He allegedly he

33:37

was saying hateful homophobic things to the

33:40

police law. After

33:42

authorities interview the man and looked into the

33:44

crime that when him in prison in two

33:46

thousand and one investigators charged Oh Rice with

33:48

the murders of Lawley and Julie. Authorities

33:51

say that this was a hate crime as

33:53

he and Nineteen Eighty Four ruling. Is.

33:55

The first time Federal prosecutors has utilize that

33:57

ruin to enhance a murder charge. However, Darryl.

34:00

Family and friends were shocked. According to

34:02

his family and friends, Dell had multiple

34:04

openly gay friends who said he never

34:06

had an issue with the relationships. Girl.

34:08

Sisters on State they they had never known

34:10

him to have open hatred for women. He.

34:13

Could become enraged but never based on others

34:15

genders or sexual out a by. On top

34:17

of this, the only evidence prosecutors had that

34:19

linked this to a hate crime. Was.

34:22

A short one minute long phone call Dell had

34:24

made. To. An Lgbtq support group

34:26

in California. Barrels.

34:28

Lawyers claim that this call was a mistake and

34:31

that he had just been trying to call the

34:33

Grateful Dead hotline. And. Somehow just

34:35

miss styled and called. This

34:37

support group instead. Which.

34:40

I don't know about that general you

34:42

want to you our. Enlightening.

34:45

Me earlier and what the Grateful Dead hotline was. But

34:47

for those I don't know. What? That was.

34:50

Yeah so. I

34:52

was right now asset because offices. They'll have the

34:54

same way out the internet as a thing, but

34:56

back in the day people could call this number.

34:59

To. Get info on my upcoming tour

35:01

dates and just like announcements having

35:03

that to do with the dad.

35:05

So you'd like hi Nate! Hi.

35:08

Thanks for going online! They. Have

35:10

an upcoming so at. The

35:12

Oakland Coliseum on May Sixth, seventh, and

35:14

eighth, whatever for tickets on sale this

35:16

time. Whatever self as is a place

35:18

that ah, People to call in to get

35:20

more info and where they can. Get

35:22

tickets and and the on it same. To

35:25

group of that as inside falling some

35:27

no prizes and like this. Was

35:30

invented for them. Anyways, back to

35:32

the case. Ah, but the

35:34

case kept moving forward. You've on my boss

35:36

or Devil's Night. In a sudden victim said

35:38

that he targeted her for being a woman.

35:40

so. That. Directly contradicts what his

35:42

family says and. Adding can

35:44

see what's going on here, but. Apparently

35:47

he had yelled at Yvonne to show him

35:49

her breasts and attempted to force her into

35:51

his vehicle. When she refused Adele's trial you've

35:53

on said quote, he told me he was

35:55

going to get me and to get into

35:57

the truck and you screaming at me I

35:59

was terrified. That he was going to kill me.

36:01

Daryl. Even told him that years. Not only that, He

36:04

target you've on because she was a woman. But.

36:06

That women are vulnerable and easier to

36:08

subdue. However, he also told investigators that

36:11

he felt his prime target Von was

36:13

a result of his frustration with people

36:15

at his previous job. He. Also

36:17

told him that he felt like he's starting to

36:19

come on done in the summer nineteen Ninety Five

36:21

which aligns with the timeline of him beginning to

36:23

act a radically at work. It. Also

36:25

means that he was already in a state. Of

36:28

being unhinged at the time Julian Ali

36:30

were murdered. With. His information f

36:32

the I investigators were convinced that Dell

36:34

Rice was the man they were looking

36:36

for. However, others if all the case

36:38

her concern that investigators had tunnel vision

36:40

and refusing to consider other possibilities in

36:42

the pairs death which is sadly what

36:44

happened here. They really felt like this

36:46

was their guy and this is what

36:48

we're going to roll with no matter

36:50

fit, it works or not. And.

36:52

Two Thousand One Attorney General John Ashcroft announced

36:55

that the Federal authorities were charging Darrow with

36:57

the crime and sought the death penalty. They.

36:59

Said their case was incredibly strong

37:01

in New. Daryl. Was there

37:04

man. But sadly the case quickly began to

37:06

fall apart because the only foreign dna found

37:08

the crimes. He was a hair's found in

37:10

the glove and duct tape. However, hair analysis

37:13

is equal to true dna testing. Paris can

37:15

rarely connect a specific person to a case.

37:17

However, they can be used to school suspects.

37:19

What Investigators knew that the hair fell at

37:22

the scene had to come from a killer.

37:24

It was found the duct tape used to

37:26

bind gag the victims and in the gloves

37:29

allegedly warned by the killer. But. Nowhere

37:31

else at the scene of the

37:33

crime. after they tested, the hair,

37:35

experts explicitly excluded Dell Rise as

37:37

the culprit. So despite the investigators

37:39

confidence and all the charges that

37:41

they brought against Daryl. They. Were

37:43

all drafted two thousand and four and

37:45

this and investigators. Back. To investigating

37:48

the case with no conclusive evidence

37:50

and zero leads, the case rankled

37:52

for years and additional speculation began

37:54

to arise. I do want to

37:56

mention one thing. Ah, about

37:58

Darryl Rice's. The case because

38:00

this is very very important to note.

38:02

So obviously the Dna evidence doesn't work

38:05

out but what they did as a

38:07

used a not very well known legal

38:09

concept called without Prejudice and these are

38:11

using cases where prosecutors are convinced of

38:13

the guilt of the descend it they

38:15

feel like they do have a strong

38:17

case. I could persuade a jury or

38:19

judge but because of some sort of

38:21

procedural error that occurred during the trolley.

38:23

silly They can't get the conviction. That.

38:26

They need to get. And by dismissing a

38:28

case in this way. The. Federal government

38:30

basically reserves right to bring the case back

38:32

against a person at any time and in

38:35

the case of Dell Rice they were on

38:37

the ease of jury selection for his trial

38:39

and at any point the Federal government can

38:41

go and basically get. Get. Right

38:43

back to the spot. That. They left

38:46

off on and continue the trial against

38:48

him. So Daryl actually lives in the

38:50

state of double Jeopardy, which is how

38:52

and why the Virginia Innocence Project actually

38:54

became involved in the case cause they

38:56

had actually seen as as a miscarriage

38:58

of justice against an innocent person. Ah,

39:00

which is all very interesting to note.

39:03

So. There. Is a possibility that if

39:05

they're. Able to find. Another

39:08

way to connect him conclusively to this

39:10

crime. That. Daryl could be. right?

39:12

Back. On trial for this

39:14

that same month that Julian Lolly were

39:17

murdered, another body was found in a

39:19

field off a route twenty Nine in

39:21

Virginia and that by belong to twenty

39:23

five year old Elisa Show Altair Reynolds.

39:26

A grad student at John Hopkins University

39:28

in Baltimore. Now, Lisa had been missing

39:31

since. March and Ninety Ninety Six. When.

39:33

She last Baltimore to shop with her

39:35

mother in Charlottesville, Virginia and when she

39:37

didn't arrive, her family knew that something

39:40

was wrong. In. July at least

39:42

his body was found and. She had been

39:44

murdered although a cause of death has not

39:46

been publicly release or not exactly sure what

39:48

happened there, but when. Police found her

39:50

vehicle abandoned miles from her body. They

39:53

noted a white napkin. Underneath the

39:55

wiper. Now this is a calming sign

39:57

of. Car trouble? Like some type

39:59

of thing, Not get another driver to

40:01

pull over and help or let

40:03

a passer by know that the

40:05

vehicle had been left due to

40:08

being in operable harvard the car

40:10

was actually in perfect working order.

40:12

The police in that case speculate that maybe to

40:14

killer use the same trick to get Elisa to

40:16

stop on the side of the road. Without.

40:19

Detailed released, dozens of additional women

40:21

came forward to tell police. That

40:23

they had nearly fallen for that

40:25

same tactic A man described as

40:27

being six foot tall with blonde.

40:29

Hair had pretended to have car trouble to get

40:31

the women to offer him. A ride

40:33

in their vehicles and most women said they

40:35

didn't give the man and ride but a

40:38

few did. However, Luckily nothing's happened

40:40

to them. And. Week before

40:42

Elisa disappeared the man seem. To

40:44

be escalating, a woman contacted police

40:46

about assault the she had fallen

40:48

victim to. En route twenty nine

40:50

a man. Matching the description that the

40:52

other women had given. Offered her

40:55

a ride home when he saw her

40:57

walking on the side the road. He

40:59

seemed friendly so she accepted. However, he

41:01

made the woman feel very uncomfortable as

41:03

he pulled to decide the road and

41:06

claimed he couldn't see on cutting vehicles.

41:08

She became an easy. And attempted to

41:10

leave the vehicle which angered the sky

41:12

and they fought as he drove and

41:14

eventually. He pushed her out of the

41:17

car and she actually broke her ankle

41:19

seven. Days later, Elisa disappeared

41:21

in the same area. The

41:23

police began referring to this man as. The

41:26

Route Twenty Nine Stalker. And when the

41:28

theory of a connection with the raw

41:30

tween and Stalker arose as the I

41:32

investigators tried to clean that Daryl race

41:34

car actually be the route Twenty Nine

41:36

Soccer In could be responsible for Elisa.

41:38

Show Walters as as well as

41:40

Julie and Lollies. However, this theory

41:42

was not accepted by many people.

41:45

falling the case. Even. A lease

41:47

as mother made a statement that she did

41:49

not believe their race was involved in the

41:51

death of her daughter. Many. Pointed

41:53

out that in Nineteen Ninety Seven, a

41:55

year after Elisa, Julie, and Molly were

41:57

killed. Barrel. Was incapable

41:59

of. Successfully abducting a woman.

42:01

Who had nothing but a bike and a

42:03

water bottle to protect her? And. As.

42:06

I'm sure many of you and cases of

42:08

serial killer they often get better at what

42:11

they're doing the longer they're doing it. And

42:13

Escarra was a killer in the first three

42:15

cases. Why would he have gotten worse at

42:17

abducting and killing as time when? I mean

42:19

doesn't make a lot of sense, right? So.

42:22

Regardless, there was no evidence that

42:24

hi Darryl. To the route, twain and

42:26

stalker case and no way to connect the

42:28

route when a stalker with Julie or Lawley

42:30

And for. Decades, the case has remained

42:32

cold and twenty twenty one as

42:34

the I put out a new

42:36

call for info on Malian Julie's

42:38

death. this time they focus. On informing

42:41

the audience. Beyond. The boundaries

42:43

of the State of Virginia they

42:45

said quote the beauty of Virginia's

42:47

parks and trails or enticing to

42:50

people. Not just from Virginia, but

42:52

other states and during his outdoor

42:54

adventures, people come across other hikers

42:56

and visitors, some who make a

42:58

memorable impression. Over. The past twenty

43:00

five years, we are aware that those

43:02

who were hiking in the park at

43:04

the time of those murders who were

43:06

visiting local establishment and even resided in

43:08

the area may not be local to

43:10

Virginia and longer. Therefore, it is crucial

43:12

that this case continues to be shared

43:14

throughout the country. It is possible there

43:17

are people anywhere from Virginia to the

43:19

West Coast that could have information valuable.

43:21

To the case. And as

43:23

far the reason why we wanted to cover this case today.

43:25

Today are easily have a. Not.

43:27

Only national the international audience. And.

43:29

They are still likely said looking for

43:32

tips and information. But. This

43:34

calls for information actually. Angered

43:36

many in the case including Julian

43:38

Lollies homes and families. And

43:40

not because they don't want to find

43:42

their killers, but because. Many of them

43:45

claim that they know exactly who killed.

43:47

Julie. And lolly and that

43:49

is Richard evidence. Which. You

43:52

may know the name Richard Evidence The

43:54

man was a serial killer, kidnapper and

43:56

reapers who's responsible for the deaths at

43:58

least three teenagers in Virginia. The.

44:00

Man also duct it and sexually assaulted

44:02

a fifteen year old girl named Care

44:04

Robinson. Care is the only known survivor

44:06

of Richard. She shared her create a

44:08

story with others when the often interviewed

44:10

about her experience. Care was kept in

44:13

an apartment Richard shared with his mother

44:15

and wise. But. The To or on a

44:17

trip to Florida at the time of Cares Abduction. The.

44:19

Night after cares abduction. As Richard slept,

44:21

Kara became free from her restraints and

44:24

fled. Leading. Police to the apartment

44:26

where she had been held. Have a.

44:28

Richard was already gone when they got their. Upon.

44:30

Entering the apartment, policemen evidence linking Richard

44:33

to the murders of Sophia Silver. Kristin.

44:36

List and kitty Lisc. Sophia.

44:38

Who is Sixteen has been kidnapped from

44:40

our families doorstep on September Nine. Ninety

44:42

Ninety Six. To. Sally found five

44:44

weeks later, deceased in a swamp. Christian.

44:47

List who is fifteen and Katie Less whose

44:49

twelve or sisters who disappeared from their yard

44:51

on May First Ninety Ninety Seven. They.

44:54

Were found at a few days later in a nearby river.

44:57

After cares escape, Richard fled

44:59

toward Florida. On. The way they're

45:01

He called a sister and told her he had

45:03

quote committed more crimes than he could count. As.

45:06

Sister promptly reporters location to the police who

45:08

stopped him on the way to Florida. However,

45:10

before he could be arrested, he shot and

45:12

killed himself. Over the years, police have thought

45:14

that Richard could be connected to a large

45:17

number of similar murders in the area. As

45:19

many people point out, Richard said he committed

45:21

more crimes and eat it out. Yet the

45:23

only new of three victims. Cares

45:25

Abduction and Discovery Richards crimes happen in the

45:27

summer. Two thousand and Two. When.

45:29

His information was released. People instantly drew

45:31

parallels had both the murder of Elisa

45:33

Show Altar and the murders of Julie

45:36

Williams and Lawley Winans. However, all these

45:38

years later, the Up the I refused

45:40

to pursue that route. The. Family and

45:42

lawyers Daryl Rice of Ass what harm is

45:44

due to test the evidence and hairs against

45:46

Richard but it appears the F B I

45:48

refused to conduct the testing. Girls.

45:51

Worry them Pointed out the time of Julian

45:53

Lollies murder. Their richard have been missing

45:55

for two days and his family had no idea

45:57

where he had gone. Friends. Or

45:59

Richard said he would. Remarks about how he

46:01

appreciated Ted Bundy. Because. He knew

46:03

how to commit his crimes and different jurisdictions

46:06

to avoid detection by police. And.

46:08

Some of richards previous wife said that he had

46:10

been open about having fantasies of being with two

46:12

women. Maybe. The most damning of

46:14

all. Richard. Of once told his wife

46:16

to whom he was married to when he died. That.

46:19

She should avoid going to the Shenandoah

46:21

National Park because are dangerous people out

46:23

there. She. Also told police that

46:25

he still often visited the park himself. Despite.

46:28

This investors refused cancer that Richard

46:30

may be involved. So. One

46:32

of the big reasons that Lolly Angeles'

46:35

parents really feel like Richard is is

46:37

the guy that that committed these crimes

46:39

is. All. Thanks to the work

46:41

that was done by. Katherine Miles

46:43

and her book trailed. She really dug into

46:45

this and actually made a lot of connections.

46:48

That really kind of pushed investigators a start.

46:50

Looking at Richard in her research, Catherine as

46:52

able to determine that over a fourteen month

46:54

period in the late nineteen nineties that. Julian

46:57

Lolly were just to have eight women

46:59

and girls killed in a specific location

47:02

of Central Virginia. And based

47:04

on the victims and the just

47:06

the the heinous nature of his

47:08

crimes. That's. Really how she kind

47:11

of started figuring out like this guy was

47:13

operating in this area. He's. Likely

47:15

connected to a lot of these other

47:17

unsolved murders. And. So it

47:19

seems. Based. On all the evidence

47:21

and things as even come out of his mouth that. Richard.

47:24

Is the most likely perpetrator Harrods.

47:27

Obviously unfortunate from an investigation standpoint

47:30

that he. Is no longer

47:32

alive and we may never know, but. I

47:35

just wanted to give her some kudos cause she

47:37

was really the one that. Point

47:39

in in the direction. Of

47:42

Richard. Now it has been

47:44

twenty. Years since lol angel they were

47:46

brutally killed on what. Should have been one

47:48

of the best camping trips and their allies

47:50

and there is no explanation to give the

47:53

family peace and no new. Leads despite

47:55

the renewed call for tips. In

47:57

Twenty Twenty One. Julie. Saw their

47:59

time, the this interview and twenty twenty one

48:01

on how he's dealt with his. Daughter's death

48:04

and her unsolved case. Doesn't

48:11

get any user up to twenty five years.

48:14

Though. Tom

48:17

Williams still thinks about is

48:19

murdered twenty four year old

48:21

daughter Julie. every day. still

48:23

thinks about the last time

48:25

he saw her Easter Nineteen

48:28

Ninety Six. So that

48:30

was the. April them

48:32

with at days she was so

48:35

brutal I don't know how you

48:37

couldn't. You. Know go a

48:39

day. Without. Thinking about

48:41

her. Yeah and how do you

48:43

ever gone? And. Knowing

48:45

that this is such as

48:47

solvable case to. And

48:50

that it's gone so long without.

48:53

Just. As being served and likely the person

48:55

who. Did. The murders is now

48:57

deceased but. To. Not.

49:00

Have been able to get that

49:02

closure. As this gotta be. Terrible.

49:06

To deal with every single day or. The

49:08

hope is now that would the advancements in

49:10

dna testing that maybe this case actually could

49:12

be solved in. At least they would get

49:14

that. Yeah, you know know exactly what happened.

49:17

Justice is kind of is off the table

49:19

at this point which really if it was

49:21

Richard I'm in a still chance at a

49:23

what I've read here. We don't know for

49:26

sure that scene is based on seems circumstances

49:28

that. And is

49:30

this really does seem like the work

49:32

of a serial killer arm based on

49:34

the crime scene by again he never

49:37

now Now yes that's true. That

49:39

many people are worried that we may

49:41

never truly know what happens to Julian

49:44

lolly which is just. Absolutely

49:46

heartbreaking to think about. In

49:48

September of two thousand and three to central. Minnesota

49:50

Community Foundation started the Julian Williams

49:53

Fund and according to their. Website

49:55

quote The Julian Williams Find was

49:57

established to honor the life of

49:59

Julian. Murray Williams, who died in Nineteen

50:01

Ninety Six at the age of twenty four.

50:04

Truly. Love the outdoors and was in the

50:06

process of time together. Her love of. Nature

50:08

in Geology and her concern for people's

50:11

lives as she was establishing her career

50:13

the purpose of the Julian William signed

50:15

his to reflect on the essence of

50:17

Julie who she was in which he

50:19

valued. It is to promote to outdoor

50:21

activities. The building of self esteem,

50:23

safety, confidence, and the empowerment of

50:26

girls and young women. To

50:28

Find is also committed to supporting youth

50:30

activities. That enhance mutual

50:32

respect between all people and promote

50:34

the enjoyment of active lives. This.

50:37

Clip from right after her murder shows

50:39

how respected she was in wildlife and

50:42

remembered as someone. Who. Loved the

50:44

outdoors. Williams. One

50:46

of four children was a geology major

50:48

who graduated from college magna cum loudly

50:50

two years ago. Family. And

50:52

friends remember her and what she loves to

50:55

do. He. Always does hygiene. Always

50:57

champions. He was a extremely proficient at

50:59

it. She had taken many people up

51:01

into the Boundary waters, had taken Oz.

51:05

News Classes for state classes as you

51:07

own. It was an accident that I

51:09

would have answered any time. The.

51:11

Fund also provides a grant to women who

51:13

want to follow and to least footsteps to

51:16

the study an appreciation of the outdoors and

51:18

provides between a thousand and eight thousand dollars

51:20

to those who qualified. And. Based

51:23

on a Twenty Twenty Three tax filing the

51:25

fund has awarded. Over seventeen million dollars

51:27

in Julie's name Since Two thousand

51:29

and three wishes. Really, really cool.

51:32

Julie's. Family celebrated her twenty fifth.

51:34

Birthday at Shenandoah. And

51:36

only a few months. After her tragic

51:38

that her father, Tom told reporters that

51:40

he often reflects on the last memories

51:42

that he had with his daughter. He.

51:45

Remembered how happy Julie was when she visited him

51:47

on Easter and how excited she had been to

51:49

start. You know this new job

51:51

shed coming up than. Just how overall

51:54

at peace. She really seemed. Lollies,

51:57

Remembered fondly by her friends one

51:59

friend. A beautiful Kbps to lolly

52:01

and twenty twenty three. Sure that when

52:03

she visited her old school campus in

52:05

two thousand and nineteen, she suddenly felt

52:07

a rush of memories of her time

52:10

there with bali. She. Met Lolly

52:12

and Nineteen Eighty Eight and said that

52:14

he remembers her beautiful full cheeks, her

52:16

dembele when she smiled, and her sweetness

52:18

radiated around her like and aura. She.

52:21

Remembered her last and the reflection from

52:23

her glasses as she stood. In

52:25

the late. One. Story she told

52:27

of Lolly was from their senior year of

52:30

high school and helps to shed light on

52:32

are sort of fun and carefree person that

52:34

Molly really was. She said living away from

52:36

home at fourteen causes you to grow up

52:39

pretty quickly. We loved. Each other fiercely

52:41

thought like siblings held grudges. Hurt

52:43

each other's feelings, We. Were envious

52:45

when friendship. Sifted in cared deeply

52:47

per one another, We. Took photos

52:50

of each other, not with I phone or with

52:52

actual. Thirty five millimeter cameras and I

52:54

cherish these photos and just love

52:56

that. Sells. The said senior year

52:58

we had to seeing groups in our class

53:00

they love this, The Ragged Robbins where the

53:03

girl that had actually saying their voices were

53:05

crisp, clear and angelic. There was a motley

53:07

crew of us that continued the traditional participating

53:09

in singing. performing. With this thread had two

53:12

weeks. And we were awesome! She

53:14

goes on to say among our best numbers

53:16

were Greased Lightning and she shook me all

53:18

night long. We dressed up, prepared, sad and

53:21

thing and from our peers in the theater

53:23

I close my eyes and see Lolly in

53:25

our Greece performance to love cel cones and

53:27

the drums and she would aerodrome. Throughout the

53:30

day and around campus. I. Still blast

53:32

the drum solo from in the air tonight my car

53:34

every time I hear it. Even. Thirty

53:36

years Later as a salute to Lolly.

53:38

Sound. Really beautiful. And

53:41

even know so much time has passed you

53:43

know there there is still hope that this case

53:45

can be solved. And of course if you

53:47

or anyone you know has information that could. Lead

53:50

to a break the case of while he

53:52

wins and Julie Williams please call the as

53:54

be. I tip line at one eight hundred

53:56

to two five. Five. Three

53:58

to four. Yeah, this is

54:01

still very active An open investigation with

54:03

the F B I and National Park

54:05

Service so there is hope that they'll

54:07

I am hoping that the Dns sounds

54:09

like the dna testing. Is.

54:12

Likely going to happen. Ah, but you

54:14

never know what dna from. Ah,

54:16

Years years past that it's gonna

54:19

yield anything but. I

54:21

think there is hope with technology that

54:23

eventually we'll figure out. Ah,

54:25

whose hair it was at

54:28

the scene on. so that.

54:30

Hopefully. In our

54:32

families, kings get some semblance of

54:35

closer in with this Elise. knowing.

54:37

I'm who did this, but. I

54:40

mean there's no happy ending are no really

54:42

positive outlook with this one of course night

54:44

but I do think it would make such

54:46

a huge difference for them to have some

54:49

under his answer casino instead not knowing. Forever

54:52

wondering. You know the idea of.

54:54

Letting their whole lives without. Knowing what

54:56

actually happened or who was

54:58

responsible for first stealing their

55:01

lives? Yes, And I think.

55:04

You might be feeling like is it safe

55:06

to. You know, go national

55:08

parks and you know I know a lot of

55:10

people. And. Lot of females. I go hiking.

55:13

By. Themselves even and obviously

55:15

going with somebody else or.

55:18

A group of people's always preferred but

55:20

definitely be look at the and number

55:22

of deaths that happen in. National.

55:25

Parks. That means. Doesn't. The

55:27

number of murders is a very, very

55:29

small percentage. On. But it

55:31

does happen. And there are sexual assaults

55:33

that happen. Arm and National

55:35

Parks as well. And so that's always something

55:38

that. You. Gotta. I.

55:40

Guess keep in the the back your mind that. You

55:43

know these things do happen and they are rare.

55:46

But. It's definitely something. To.

55:48

Think about and and know about So yeah,

55:50

I'm. Just. Be vigilant, you

55:52

know. In prepared.

55:55

Ya says? I'm curious because like

55:57

it's interesting that the. Crime

56:00

statistics with a national Park system isn't

56:02

track better like the databases are. All.

56:05

Outdated and old. and there's not like there should

56:07

be like an official. Place.

56:09

You go to look up the statistics,

56:11

but there definitely is crime that happens

56:13

just like there is anywhere. I.

56:16

Mean it's one thing that came out and

56:18

twenty twenty four thing in February. Saying.

56:21

Approximately two hundred forty two people

56:23

die annually on National Park Service

56:25

lands. Considering the crowds, the

56:27

parser. See, that's not that many. With nearly

56:29

three hundred and twelve million visits and twenty twenty

56:31

two, it works out to the death rate of

56:33

less than one and a million. Sound.

56:36

Like you're saying josh like obvious it's possible on.

56:38

People. Need to. Proceed with

56:40

caution to psych and with any time act

56:43

having like that. But. I.

56:45

Think that. In of

56:47

it shouldn't deter people from. so going

56:49

out exploring. I'm does

56:52

parks. Yeah. And.

56:54

I think been the way that we can

56:56

help us problem and something that the National

56:58

Parks Conservation Association says is the best person

57:00

to combat in crime in the parks is

57:03

a properly fun the park service meals and

57:05

that's the unfortunate reality is the. You

57:07

know, the park service continues to get their budgets

57:09

cut for. Other reasons like the funding

57:12

know the military and and other things that

57:14

get the wide range of the federal budget.

57:16

We've talked about that in the past. It's

57:18

prime been a little while since we've dived

57:20

into the. Ah, The federal

57:22

budget were over. Money. Goes.

57:25

And so they just don't. You know they're

57:27

doing the best they can. Often times they

57:29

just don't have the resources or man power

57:31

to you know adequately ensure safety. Arm.

57:34

In these vast expanses a wilderness. And I

57:36

mean. It be pretty much impossible

57:38

to to guarantee safety out in the middle

57:40

of the wilde, but. I'm.

57:43

You know how they had more

57:45

resources? more trained individuals? You

57:47

know, maybe they would have solved this from the

57:49

jump and this wouldn't be an unsolved case. So.

57:52

You know? I think it's. Perhaps. Gotten

57:54

better is time's gone on. since Ninety Six, I

57:56

know he covered Harold and Thorn Hilliard actually did

57:59

a really good. That figuring out one

58:01

out. The National Park Service agents dead.

58:04

And the F B I so are. They have gotten

58:06

better since Ninety Six, but. Ah

58:08

doesn't change. Ah, what happened

58:10

then? So. To Stephanie some the

58:12

keep in mind and and we hope that. You

58:15

know one day war or get answers to

58:18

this case? But. Yeah. We

58:20

want to know your thoughts on it for sure.

58:22

Deadly less know at theory makes more sense to

58:24

you. Yeah. I think I think

58:26

all signs point towards Richard. I think near

58:28

the timing the fact he was operating in

58:31

the area. Similar. Victims?

58:33

Yeah. Sexually motivated

58:35

on. Just. A really

58:37

really bad dude. But. It's totally

58:39

possible at someone that yeah even on anyone's

58:42

radar. yeah in I was going to bring

58:44

up to cause I'd. Covered. A

58:46

case recently on lights Out. The

58:48

David Cheering Cases was a national

58:50

Park in Canada. And

58:52

a whole family was. Ah.

58:55

Executed. Guy. I'm just

58:57

camping. And they looked

58:59

far and wide for the killer.

59:02

And it turned out the the killer was

59:04

just outside of the property. Live like. Black.

59:07

Mile. Or to. Give. Or take.

59:10

From. From the site of the murders

59:12

amazed at Take Them To they never went

59:14

Nast's the neighbors. They. Never went

59:16

around and ask anybody in the direct vicinity of

59:19

the park if they knew anything and as soon

59:21

as they i was crazy as soon as they

59:23

did. You. Like oh yeah,

59:25

there's this guy. David. David cheering. He's

59:27

A. He's a weirdo. He's he's said

59:29

this or that. He's. Ah

59:31

he's your guy. Basically like the locals

59:33

new all it would upset is getting

59:35

that road evidence to talk to. numerous

59:38

and I think sometimes what happens is

59:40

because of the jurisdictional issues that. Because.

59:43

You have to collaborate with woke You know the

59:45

Federal can't just go outside of the park and

59:47

and start. You know, going around

59:50

to neighbors knocking on doors? necessarily

59:52

cars, the jurisdiction. And that's where

59:54

local law enforcement comes into play.

59:57

But with this I do wonder

59:59

is. If. Anybody was

1:00:01

ever talk to locally if there's any local

1:00:03

that lived as on the outside of these

1:00:06

entrances to where. Ah the

1:00:08

park is if they would know of

1:00:10

anybody that. Could. Have possibly

1:00:12

been involved. I think that's the

1:00:14

difficult part of it is. The.

1:00:16

Jurisdiction All. On.

1:00:19

Aspects make it difficult to investigate it

1:00:21

and get that that collaboration that that

1:00:23

you need to. Thoroughly investigate

1:00:25

inside, outside, apart for

1:00:28

sometimes. The perpetrators is

1:00:30

right around the corner and you don't even know

1:00:32

it. and yep arm which is crazy thing about

1:00:34

but. Oftentimes the

1:00:36

case. Honestly yes pls know

1:00:38

who who you think is

1:00:40

a. If you think

1:00:42

it was Richard or I think it was somebody

1:00:44

else that hasn't been. Named. Yet

1:00:47

I'm And. Yeah.

1:00:49

Ours got her. Julian Lies family of course.

1:00:51

And yes, I mean this is. Very.

1:00:54

Very, I've sorta deal with these two. Seemed

1:00:56

like such incredible in an. Absolutely.

1:00:59

but we'll go ahead and leave it there

1:01:01

today and think the of are joining us

1:01:03

for no episode of Mile Higher and will

1:01:05

cede.