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If you want to pump your body

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and expand your mind, there's only one

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pump. Mind pump. With your

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just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment

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podcast. This is Mind Pump.

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Today we brought back our friend Max

0:19

Lugaver. He's the host of the Genius

0:22

Life podcast. He's an author, but

0:24

he also wrote and directed a documentary

0:26

called Little Empty Box. This is about

0:29

his mom, the journey that she went through

0:32

with dementia and Alzheimer's. In fact, this is what

0:34

inspired him to become who he is today, where

0:37

he talks about how food affects our

0:39

health. This is a very,

0:41

very good documentary. Sometimes

0:44

tough to watch, very touching. He obviously loves

0:46

his mother and his family a

0:48

lot. In fact, you

0:50

can go to littleemptyboxes.com

0:53

and watch it. Just got to click on watch, and then you can

0:56

take a gander. Again, his podcast is the

0:58

Genius Life. Now this episode is brought to

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use the code June50 for that discount. All

1:50

right, here comes the show. Max,

1:52

welcome back to the show. What up?

1:55

Our favorite person ever. Bro, what are we on right now? How many

1:57

times? Five? Oh,

1:59

man. 456. Who's counting?

2:02

Not enough. Yeah, not enough. Yeah,

2:05

well this is kind of special though. I mean,

2:07

this has been the build up. This is a

2:09

big deal. That we're, yeah, this is a big

2:11

deal. So you, your documentary is out. It's

2:14

out there. Yeah, it's out. It's a, this is

2:16

a 10 year long labor of love. I think

2:18

when I first met you guys. You talked about

2:20

it. Well, I was already, I think like two

2:22

years into production on the film. I

2:24

began it in, I came up with the idea in 2014, and

2:28

then we launched a crowdfunding campaign for

2:30

it in January of 2015. And

2:33

now it's 2014, mid 2014,

2:36

and it's finally coming out. Wow. Let's, okay. So for

2:38

people who don't know, let's talk a little bit about

2:40

the name of it and talk about what

2:43

it's about and why you made it in

2:45

the first place. Yeah. So

2:47

it's called little empty boxes. And the, the, the

2:49

title of the documentary actually comes from something that

2:51

my mom says about midway

2:53

through the documentary. She, for

2:56

anybody who doesn't know, my mom suffered

2:58

with dementia, a rare form

3:00

of dementia for the last

3:03

eight years of her life. And

3:05

it was a form called Lewy body dementia, which

3:07

is akin to essentially having both Alzheimer's disease and

3:09

Parkinson's disease at the same time. And

3:12

there's a really heartbreaking

3:14

scene about halfway through the film where my

3:17

mom is trying to describe

3:19

her inner world, you know? And

3:22

she says that the

3:24

boxes remain empty, you know? And

3:29

so if you just kind of like picture, you

3:31

know, piling up all the memories and, and you

3:33

know, things that you love in life and your ability to

3:36

appreciate, you know, whether it's, um,

3:39

film, reading, you know, all the, all the many things that

3:41

you derive joy from over the course of the day that

3:43

we often take for granted, you know,

3:45

and then suddenly the box is just like, you

3:48

know, feel empty, emptying. Yeah. And

3:51

it's not something that as I was filming my mom, I

3:54

grasped, but as we were editing the film, it

3:56

stood out to my co-director, Chris Newhart. And

3:59

he was like, well, if we can actually let

4:01

Kathy name the film, Kathy's my mom. And

4:04

so that's where the name of the film came from. And the

4:07

film is essentially, it documents my

4:09

mom's journey with dementia. So I filmed it

4:12

during the last eight years of her life where

4:14

she was really struggling with this condition. And this

4:17

was well before my books, my podcast, before

4:19

anybody knew who I was, I was just a

4:21

terrified son. And

4:23

I had the opportunity to follow her

4:25

to different doctor's appointments and spend a

4:27

lot of quality time with her. And

4:32

for me, it felt like it was a way to pay

4:34

homage to

4:36

what she was experiencing and

4:38

to memorialize the trauma and the

4:42

suffering and the

4:44

pain that

4:47

me and the rest of my family was experiencing

4:49

and try to, in a way, making, taking

4:52

something painful and making meaning out

4:54

of it and documenting it. But

4:58

then on the other hand, it's a film that, I

5:00

think for the first time on film, documents

5:04

the science of dementia prevention. So what we

5:06

can actually do, the steps that we can

5:08

take day to day to actually reduce our

5:10

risk for developing the kind

5:12

of condition that my mom had. And it's

5:14

not a film that provides any easy answers,

5:16

no magic bullet solution. There's

5:18

no magical diet that my film presents. It's not

5:20

one of these like nutrition documentaries where you

5:23

find the

5:25

exact roadmap to preventing

5:27

this condition. But it does with broad strokes

5:29

paint a picture of how we

5:31

might live, the kinds of foods we might choose

5:33

to eat or choose to avoid to

5:38

reduce our risk. This, when we first had

5:40

you on the show, you had

5:42

just, I believe, published those genius foods. And

5:46

what you're talking about is literally the driving

5:48

factor behind who you are now. It's your

5:51

podcast, it's the books you wrote. Like

5:53

your experience with this is what propelled you,

5:55

motivated you and drove you to

5:58

learn about dementia. Alzheimer's and

6:00

its causes, is it exploding? Is

6:06

dementia and Alzheimer's growing, and

6:08

is it due to an older population, or

6:12

does that not account for

6:14

the rising amount of cases?

6:16

Or is it not rising? Yeah, no, it

6:19

is increasing. I mean, today, about 55 million

6:21

people worldwide struggle with dementia. And

6:25

some of the science that we reveal in the

6:27

documentary, I actually went to the lab of Susanna

6:29

Lamonte, as far as I know,

6:31

the first time she's ever appeared in any kind of public-facing

6:36

documentary or anything like that. And she

6:38

is the neuropathologist at Brown University who

6:41

coined the term type 3 diabetes. So

6:44

this is a term that's been used to describe

6:46

Alzheimer's disease. But

6:48

she also has a master's in public health, and

6:51

she explains on camera that the

6:53

rates are skyrocketing ever since

6:55

about the 1980s, across all age

6:58

groups. So even if you account for

7:00

our improved diagnoses, this

7:02

is not a function

7:04

of the fact that we're living

7:06

longer, because it's occurring at increased

7:09

rates across pretty much every age

7:11

group, except the obviously the very

7:13

young, but 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s. So

7:16

this is not just because we're living longer,

7:18

it's because our food environment, the

7:21

standard American lifestyle has become essentially toxic.

7:25

Is the rate of growth of

7:27

these diagnoses growing as well? So

7:30

there's more and more, but is it accelerating?

7:33

It seems to be accelerating. Oh, wow. It seems

7:36

to be accelerating. But it makes

7:38

sense because when you consider some

7:40

of the modifiable risk factors for Alzheimer's

7:43

disease, for example, hypertension,

7:46

or type 2 diabetes, or obesity,

7:49

rates of those conditions are accelerating, right? I mean,

7:51

today, 50% of adults have hypertension,

7:53

which is high blood pressure. One

7:55

in two adults by the year 2030 are

7:57

gonna be not just overweight, but obese. about

8:01

half, if not more of us have either

8:03

type 2 diabetes or are pre-diabetic, right?

8:06

And so for example, if you have type 2 diabetes,

8:09

you're increasing your risk of developing Alzheimer's

8:11

disease between two and four fold. Hypertension,

8:14

I mean, high blood pressure, chronically sustained

8:16

high blood pressure literally destroys the blood

8:18

vessels that feed your brain.

8:22

And so, you know, there's

8:24

that, there's air pollution, chronic exposure

8:26

to air pollution, hearing loss. I mean, there,

8:28

you know, thankfully now, when I first started on

8:31

this film, one of the reasons why I felt

8:33

compelled to make a film is because

8:35

nobody was talking about dementia prevention.

8:37

In fact, you probably, you couldn't even say those

8:39

two words in the same sentence and not be

8:41

called a quack if you were a medical doctor.

8:43

Is that because they considered it to be, oh,

8:46

this is genetic fact. Something just happens and then once

8:48

you get it, now we gotta treat it? Yeah, I

8:50

mean, it was considered fringe, it was, you know, there

8:52

also likely wasn't enough evidence, but

8:56

that evidence has been building over the past decade and I've

8:58

seen it built because I've been doing this for the past

9:00

10 years at this point. And

9:03

now we see, you know, a broader

9:05

acceptance within the medical establishment for,

9:07

you know, the, this

9:09

concept that we can take steps day to

9:12

day that can reduce our risk. And so

9:14

the question is, you know, if

9:16

you, if you, once you're able to wrap your head around

9:18

the fact that the science tends

9:20

to suggest that we can take steps that reduce our risk,

9:22

what are you gonna do about it? You

9:24

know? Max, when you started

9:26

going down the rabbit hole of this and reading

9:29

and watching what was coming out, what

9:32

was coming out science-wise, what were you doing

9:34

with Western medicine to treat this? What

9:36

did you learn about like our medical system

9:38

in regards to this disease? Like, was there

9:41

things that were super shocking to you, like

9:43

the way we approached it or just even

9:45

the way like drugs are made to support

9:47

it or help it? Like, what did you

9:49

find out? Yeah,

9:51

I was really let down. I,

9:55

you know, I don't think a lot of people know this, but when

9:57

I started school, I was, I wanted to. I

10:00

ended up realizing a love of storytelling

10:02

and creativity. And that's what led

10:04

to me ultimately, you know, it was very

10:06

circuitous path, but that ultimately led to me getting to

10:09

create this doc and everything else that I do. But

10:11

I love medicine. And when

10:13

my mom became sick, I

10:15

went with her from doctor's appointment to doctor's appointment.

10:17

And what I was met with in every instance,

10:20

I've come to call diagnose and audios. Basically

10:22

a physician would, you know, either

10:24

add a new prescription to my mom's regimen or titrate

10:26

up the dose of a drug that she was on.

10:30

But anybody who's

10:32

ever had any kind of chronic disease knows you

10:34

get like 15 minutes with your doctor and like

10:36

you're confused, you're scared, you're

10:38

experiencing sympathetic activation, so you're in a

10:40

state of fight or flight. You're not

10:43

asking all the appropriate questions that that

10:46

ought to be asked, you know, when you're sick

10:48

and you're talking face to face with a medical

10:50

expert. And so thankfully I

10:52

was able to go with my mom to

10:54

these to these various doctors appointments, but still

10:56

nonetheless, I mean, the tools that that we

10:58

have to treat dementia are

11:01

extremely limited, extremely

11:03

limited. And, you know, Alzheimer's drug trials

11:05

have a 99.6% fail rate. They're

11:08

very controversial. The drugs that that, you

11:10

know, most recently there were a few

11:12

drugs that actually passed through the FDA

11:15

approval process. And they

11:17

were recently pulled because we realized that they

11:19

were doing more harm than good for Alzheimer's

11:21

sufferers because they they slowed down the progression

11:23

of the beta amyloid plaques, which we thought

11:26

would help. But we realized like, OK, you get less

11:28

plaques, but Alzheimer's that went away.

11:30

Exactly. Doesn't actually improve cognition. And the

11:33

risks are significant. You

11:35

know, the drugs like adjacana, Mab, lakana,

11:37

Mab, they were all associated with brain

11:39

swelling, brain bleeding. And

11:42

these drugs were approved, I think, because

11:44

they help to further the narrative that

11:47

amyloid beta is the cause of Alzheimer's

11:49

disease. And these drugs were successful at

11:51

reducing because they're monoclonal antibodies. So they

11:53

basically turn your immune system against this

11:55

amyloid plaque buildup. So the drugs were

11:57

successful in terms of reducing the plaque

11:59

buildup. And so they're like, oh great, let's

12:01

approve it. Cause they, you know, they, they seem

12:03

to attack the fundamental cause

12:05

of a condition somehow

12:08

overlooking the fact that as you suggested,

12:10

yeah, cognition didn't improve, which is like

12:12

the clinical feature. That's

12:14

the whole point. Is this a good analogy to what

12:17

you're saying, Max, for someone listening, like, oh my

12:19

God, look at all the smoke. Let's

12:21

find a way to get rid of the smoke. Yeah. But

12:24

the fire is what's happening. And so like, oh, the

12:26

smoke's gone. I think we're okay with the fire still

12:28

raging. And that's not solving the

12:30

problem. Would that be a good analogy? Yeah, great analogy.

12:32

Okay. Yeah. you

12:35

might look at, you know, smoke and

12:37

think that smoke causes fire, right?

12:39

Cause they're both there currently, right?

12:41

Or that firemen, you know,

12:43

being at the scene of the crime cause the fire.

12:45

That's right. Yeah. Great, great point. Did you have, did

12:47

you have a moment where, cause

12:50

I imagine this kind of started out of,

12:52

like you said, like from passion and curiosity

12:54

and like, did you go from that type

12:56

of a feeling to anger? I

12:59

mean, do you remember that? Do you remember like, was there

13:01

like a trajectory like that? Where it was like, you know,

13:03

obviously you're sad. You're going through this with your mom, but

13:06

a lot of it you're trying to figure out and research.

13:08

And then there comes a point where you start to get

13:10

frustrated and angry. Did you go through that? Yeah,

13:13

I think, you know, because it's just,

13:17

you put all this faith in Western, in Western

13:19

medicine. And you know,

13:21

I still, I continue to, to,

13:24

I think, you know, Western medicine is amazing. My

13:27

dad just had a total knee replacement. He's

13:29

now walking around. Like it's, it's incredible for

13:31

those kinds of like acute, you know, emergent

13:33

care or when you need a tumor cut

13:35

out or a joint replaced, like that's

13:38

all great. But I think more emphasis needs to

13:40

be placed on prevention with regard to these

13:43

kinds of complex, chronic multifactorial

13:45

diseases that now people are suffering from because

13:48

once you get a condition like Alzheimer's, once

13:50

you're diagnosed, for example, with

13:52

Alzheimer's disease, you're essentially in late

13:54

stage Alzheimer's disease. I mean, by the time that

13:56

you get all the symptoms where you go to

13:58

the doctor, you've already been having it. in

18:00

the way that they're treating this. Did you

18:02

look into any Eastern medicine

18:04

practices, any kind of other treatment that

18:06

had any kind of validity, moved the

18:08

needle at all? Is

18:11

there anything out there? Or again, is it too late

18:13

at that point? You know, my

18:15

mom, we got her on a pretty vigorous

18:17

like exercise program, exercise medicine for

18:19

the brain. So I would say that exercise,

18:21

you know, if

18:23

nothing else, like exercise is really the, it's

18:26

now reached a level of evidence where it's

18:28

like, a prescriptive

18:30

level of evidence. And it has essentially a

18:32

disease modifying effect. It's not gonna cure the

18:34

disease, but it might potentially slow it down.

18:38

And so we got my mom training with a personal trainer. And

18:40

for the first time in her life, she was like working

18:43

out and lifting weights and stuff. And I do think that

18:45

it helped slow, you know, the

18:47

progression of the disease. But from a dietary

18:49

standpoint, I mean, it's not like, you

18:52

know, she didn't really change her diet much.

18:54

Really lifestyle factors for the most part. Yeah.

18:57

You know, it's tough when you're in that position too, by the way, it's

18:59

scary. Like I was in a situation

19:01

like that with a family member, not with

19:03

dementia Alzheimer's, but they had cancer. And

19:06

when you're faced with something

19:08

so scary, and you're

19:10

like, well, should I go Eastern medicine? But

19:13

I don't know, I don't know what to do. And

19:15

if I do the wrong thing, this is gonna turn

19:18

terrible. Even though I know that what they're prescribing, the

19:20

data shows probably not gonna help. It's really

19:22

scary position. Did you find yourself like, you're like,

19:24

oh, I guess we trust these people? Cause. It's

19:27

like, you know, I

19:30

don't wanna sow too much skepticism about Western

19:32

medicine because for example, like if you have,

19:34

if you're growing a tumor in your body,

19:37

the disease modifying treatment is like cutting

19:39

out that tumor and I wouldn't wanna

19:42

sway people away from like life saving

19:44

interventions like that. But with a condition

19:46

like dementia, none of the treatments are

19:48

disease modifying. You know, they're

19:50

all just essentially biochemical band-aids that

19:53

barely work and work more or

19:55

less depending on the variant of dementia that you have. If

19:57

my mom's particular, the type of dementia that my mom was

19:59

diagnosed with. because

46:00

that's gotta be one of the most frustrating things

46:02

for you to be explaining a lot of the

46:04

science and these things like that. And I know

46:06

you get people on the other side of the

46:08

aisle here that are just like, oh,

46:10

that's so, you could have 5,000 times that amount and

46:13

it not cause cancer or cause any issues, but

46:15

it's like, yeah, but you compound that with this

46:17

and this and this and this. Nobody's testing everything

46:19

together. And nobody's testing that all together. We don't

46:21

have anything for that. And so sure, maybe if

46:24

that's all that person ever was exposed to, but

46:26

that's not. In reality, they're getting exposed to all

46:28

these things. What do

46:31

we have to support

46:33

people like you or your arguments in that

46:36

direction? You guys need to be more aware

46:38

of this stuff and it's scarier

46:40

than, and it's like, and not be an alarm at the same time,

46:42

but it's something that we should be more. Well,

46:44

it's a great question. I

46:46

feel for people because we do live in

46:48

a time where now there's a lot of

46:50

this fear mongering, fear-based content on social media.

46:53

And I think most of it is garbage. There's a

46:55

lot of really bad stuff out there and it leads people

46:57

to, to

47:00

fear otherwise helpful foods

47:03

and it creates increased

47:06

anxiety and stress and things like that. And

47:08

we don't need any more anxiety and stress

47:10

than we already have. But I

47:13

do think that practicing the

47:15

precautionary principle makes sense. The

47:18

less time a food or a

47:20

product has been in

47:23

the human food supply, I think the greater the

47:27

skepticism we should have about that

47:29

product regularly placing in our lives or

47:31

in our diets. It seems

47:34

very logical. Yeah, it seems very logical, but you

47:36

get, there's a lot of pushback today.

47:40

And at the end of the day, these

47:43

large food companies, the

47:45

food agricultural pharmaceutical complex, like, we

47:47

like to think that they have

47:50

our backs implicitly, but they don't.

47:53

Everybody's just like, it's

47:55

the bottom line. Well,

47:57

yeah, they're there to sell a product supposed

48:00

to do, but we

48:02

have to

48:04

be a little bit more, we have to scrutinize

48:06

things a little bit more carefully, in my opinion.

48:08

When it comes to exercise, you mentioned exercise, and the

48:10

brain is part of the body, so things that make

48:12

your body healthy tend to make the brain healthy. Do

48:17

you see any difference in different forms of exercise

48:19

in terms of its effect on

48:21

preventing Alzheimer's? You mentioned type

48:23

3 diabetes, I talked about this, I've talked

48:25

about this before, and how strength

48:28

training is so good for improving insulin sensitivity. Is

48:30

there any data on different

48:32

forms of exercise for dementia

48:34

and Alzheimer's, and do we see some are

48:36

better than others? This is where

48:39

your guys' expertise and dementia

48:41

prevention, there needs to be

48:43

a marriage between the two,

48:45

because we

48:47

see that the level of insulin resistance

48:49

in the periphery is correlated strongly actually

48:51

to the degree of hypometabolism in the

48:54

brain. The more insulin resistant you are

48:56

in the periphery, i.e.

48:58

in your body, in your liver, in

49:01

your muscles, the more the brain

49:03

seems to struggle with generating ATP from

49:05

glucose, which is one of the primary

49:08

hallmark features of Alzheimer's disease. In

49:10

Alzheimer's disease, the brain's ability to generate ATP from

49:12

glucose is diminished by about 50%, but

49:16

that relationship, there seems to be

49:18

a direct relationship between the

49:22

same factors that we might

49:25

do in our lives to foster insulin

49:27

sensitivity and an improvement in brain health.

49:31

If it's resistance training, which I

49:33

believe it is that resistance training is one of the

49:36

best things that you can do to foster whole body

49:38

insulin sensitivity, then that's what we

49:40

should be doing for our brains. That's the mechanism,

49:43

and now we're starting to see data coming out

49:45

showing us that, for example, leg strength is correlated

49:47

to better brain health across the age spectrum. So,

49:52

yeah, I think resistance training is

49:54

crucial. And we're

49:56

now seeing meta-analyses come out showing

49:58

us that... Resistance training is

50:01

really important from the standpoint of mental

50:03

health. I think mental health is a

50:05

fantastic surrogate proxy indicator of brain health.

50:07

Depression is actually a modifiable risk factor

50:10

for Alzheimer's disease. So you have to

50:12

kind of like, there's another

50:14

benefit of being a journalist is like, PhDs,

50:16

they're trained to focus on these tiny

50:19

microcosms of science. Medical

50:22

doctors are technicians, they're trained to

50:24

identify symptoms and prescribe the best drug

50:26

to mitigate the symptomology of

50:28

whatever the disease state is. But

50:31

I think to really see the full picture, you have to

50:33

be able to zoom out and creatively.

50:36

Yeah, because the brain is unique in the sense

50:39

that you have the physical

50:41

brain, and then you have the

50:43

mind, which is your concept of self and how

50:45

you think and your psychology. And you

50:47

can't separate the two. Like if the physical brain

50:49

is unhealthy, it's going to affect the

50:51

mind. And if the mind isn't healthy, I think it'll affect

50:53

the brain as well, just through behaviors. And so you can't

50:55

really separate the two, but they are, but

50:57

they do obviously very strongly

51:00

influence each other. And so from

51:03

a exercise and diet

51:05

perspective, do the things that make your body as

51:07

healthy as possible. And then

51:09

from a mind perspective, this has more

51:11

to do with finding purpose, meaning, you

51:14

know, some of the old, you know, maybe, you know,

51:16

practices around wisdom would probably be valuable, but I don't

51:18

think it's one or the other. I think it's, you

51:20

have to do it all because you could definitely read

51:23

and work on wisdom and allow your body to decay

51:26

and you'll probably lose your mind as

51:28

well, or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah.

51:30

And mental, we're seeing now

51:32

the connection between systemic inflammation,

51:34

for example, and depression. Yeah.

51:37

It's called the, it's being referred to as

51:39

the cytokine, the inflammatory cytokine

51:41

model of depression. Yeah. That,

51:44

you know, for example, inflammatory mediator is produced

51:46

in the gut, you know, and signaling

51:48

molecules can end up, you

51:50

know, worries me about that. It's not that I don't think

51:52

that we should look there. I think that's because I've looked

51:54

at this as well. And I think there's a lot, there

51:57

seems to be a lot there, but what worries me

51:59

about it is. is then what we tend to do is

52:01

be like, this is the fix. Fix

52:03

the inflammation, depression will be all but gone.

52:06

Now you can have physiological

52:08

depression, you can also

52:10

have psychological depression, and they both communicate

52:13

with each other and influence each other, but

52:15

you could have no inflammation and be

52:17

healthy, but also have some

52:19

real issues with depression meaning and stuff like

52:22

that. So I think there's a big picture

52:24

that we tend to miss when

52:26

we look at those things. Yeah, inflammation is not the

52:28

sole cause. We're living

52:30

amidst, I think, really

52:33

stressful times, and many

52:35

of us are in spiritual crisis.

52:39

I'm thinking of Arthur Brooks, he's one of your heroes.

52:42

He's a great guy, but- Have you had him

52:44

on your show? You did, right? Yeah, he's great.

52:46

Yeah, he's awesome. He's another one of those intellectual

52:48

powerhouses. Yeah,

52:52

I mean, it's a multifaceted problem. I

52:54

think there's certainly a subset of people

52:57

of depressed people for whom diet, inflammation

53:00

is playing a role. It's certainly not all

53:02

patients with depression. What's

53:04

interesting about this too is because when you look at, the

53:08

reason why I find this such a

53:10

great discussion is when you look at

53:12

how exercise affects the body

53:14

and the brain physiologically, some

53:17

profound effects, but you can't

53:19

separate out the mental

53:22

effects or psychological effects of the

53:24

pursuit, right? It's like

53:26

getting up, going to the gym,

53:28

oh, it hurts, but I'm changing my relationship

53:31

to pain. Oh, self-acceptance,

53:33

I'm not gonna look like Arnold, but I'm gonna keep doing

53:36

this anyway. I'm gonna pursue this, and

53:38

the growth process has got to also positively

53:41

contribute to things like depression and anxiety. So

53:43

I don't think you could take a pill,

53:46

I mean, the reason why I'm saying this is, I don't think

53:48

we could give you a pill that creates all the physiological effects

53:50

of exercise. I don't think you can get the benefits of exercise.

53:52

You can get some of them. The research that

53:54

supports the exercise being so beneficial towards

53:57

like dimension, things like that, is it, And

54:00

I'm sure it's all of these things, but

54:02

I'm curious to like what carries the most

54:04

weight increased muscle, increased strength, or just the

54:06

act of exercising itself, because there's such a

54:09

wide variance in how effective it could

54:11

be. Like it's one thing just to go in the

54:13

gym and just lift a bunch of weights. And of

54:15

course it has benefits of blood flow, oxygen, moving nutrients

54:17

around, digestive. Like I can think of a whole host

54:19

of things and maybe you even build a tiny bit

54:22

of muscle along the way, even if it's by accident.

54:24

But there's a whole different like approach

54:26

of like, man, I actually am going

54:28

on this muscle building journey and I'm

54:30

going to build lots of strength and lots

54:32

of muscle. And I would imagine that the

54:34

person who just goes and exercises and maybe

54:37

adds one pound of muscle, but is moving

54:39

exercising has positive benefits. And then the person

54:41

who actually goes out and builds 10, 15

54:43

pounds of muscle because they did it more appropriately.

54:46

I would think that that would.

54:48

The best studies correct me if I'm wrong, Max,

54:50

just show the correlation between strength and

54:52

health and strength is a proxy for muscle. I mean, that's,

54:54

that's how they test it. Yeah. Like

54:57

grip strength usually. Um, although,

54:59

you know, who's not, who, who, who doesn't

55:01

see an increase in happiness when they see

55:03

themselves getting more jacked in the mirror. Yeah.

55:06

Yeah. Right. I

55:08

mean, that's what I'm saying. Like the person who like approaches

55:10

strength training period, I think, I think we'd all agree like,

55:13

Hey, go from not doing anything

55:15

to doing something that's a huge bunch

55:17

of positive benefits. Then there's like another

55:19

level to that. I'm like doing it

55:21

very effectively. And like, how much more

55:23

does that compound? If you

55:25

are seeing a physical change, you look much

55:27

better, you feel much better, you're getting significantly

55:30

stronger. You added 10 pounds of muscle.

55:32

Yeah. And when you guys talk about

55:34

insulin sensitivity, things like that, that's even, that's going to get even

55:36

better. Yeah. So like, is there, it'd

55:38

be interesting to see what the, I'm

55:40

not as familiar as the two of you with

55:42

the, like, exactly what the literature says. Yeah, because

55:44

we have exercise on strength training that show which

55:46

forms produce the best performance improvements,

55:49

but I don't think they're, they've gone as far as to say, you

55:52

know, these groups of strength training, we know it's going to benefit, you

55:54

know, but brain function, this group follows this

55:56

program, this group follows this pro which program is

55:58

worked about. Yeah, I feel like there would be

56:01

a, don't you

56:03

think there would be a, of course. Yeah. Well, I

56:05

think, I think there's also merit to muscle size as

56:07

well. I mean, there, there have been studies looking at

56:09

what's the storage vessel for, exactly for

56:11

glucose. Yeah. Like the more pear shaped body

56:13

versus the apple shaped body, the apple shaped

56:16

body being indicative of this sort of visceral

56:18

fat. Whereas, you know, if

56:20

you've got a bigger, but you know, it's like

56:22

you're able to store more glucose,

56:26

you know, you would have to assume

56:28

that the, the greater your muscle size,

56:30

the more these like various mitral kinds,

56:32

you know, are produced like

56:34

BDNF, for example, which is like thought

56:36

to be a miracle grow protein for the brain. Yeah. Um,

56:41

this is why too. And the reason why

56:43

I'm going this direction is, and it feels

56:45

like we're, you earlier said, like, you know,

56:47

uh, exercise becoming more prescriptive now, like doctors

56:49

are finally waking up. We're getting enough research

56:51

that supporting the benefits of it. The

56:53

next layer to that to me is like, is

56:55

how, it's like, great. We got people understanding that

56:57

go lift weights because there's plenty of stuff to

56:59

support it. But then I feel like, boy, there's

57:02

a huge difference between the person who goes

57:04

and does, does it right? Theory to go

57:07

exercise and not to knock them or pick

57:09

on them because that still is better than

57:11

that person not doing anything and huge benefits.

57:13

But then the person who actually goes out,

57:15

eats adequate protein builds lots of gills and

57:17

gets stronger and adds 10, 15

57:20

pounds of muscle, both physically that they look, and then

57:22

also internally, what they just built. Like, you know, it

57:24

might be good data to look at. I brought this

57:26

up for one of our episodes earlier.

57:29

I looked at pro bodybuilders and

57:32

the reason why I picked pro bodybuilders is cause they definitely

57:34

are not an example of good health. This is extreme. My

57:36

pro body was a building muscles good for

57:38

you, but the way that pro

57:40

bodybuilders pursue it is not healthy. I mean,

57:43

these guys are using all kinds of substances,

57:45

drugs, and performance, force feeding themselves. Like it

57:47

is so extreme. Okay. And I

57:49

looked up the data on pro

57:52

bodybuilders and heart disease, kidney

57:54

disease, and cancer, heart disease and kidney disease

57:56

were higher than the average, which

57:58

you would expect with their lifestyles. their cancer

58:01

rates were lower. Interesting. So, because muscle has

58:03

such a protective effect on cancer. I wonder

58:05

what dementia and Alzheimer's would be among the

58:07

bodybuilding population. Yeah, that's right. Because they're unhealthy

58:09

across the board, but they just have so

58:12

much muscle. I wonder

58:14

if it would cancel out the fact that they use

58:16

steroids, growth hormones, and all these other crazy things at

58:18

super high doses, if it would cancel it out because

58:20

the muscle, We

58:22

bring up an interesting point, Adam, because that

58:24

makes me think of like, we have so

58:26

much like, I mean, in

58:29

terms of looking at different medications, like

58:31

we're very like critical

58:34

about like, you know, the outcome

58:36

of those different medications that we

58:39

prescribe. And we're really not that

58:42

intense about looking at the type

58:44

of exercise, the type of programming, the, you

58:46

know, that's massively different.

58:48

Huge. I guess the doctor just says, go

58:50

do the fight. Yeah, and that there's how

58:53

you do that is a huge difference. And

58:55

everything from the psychological stuff we're talking to

58:57

insulin sensitivity, to the strength, to like, I

58:59

mean, it's wild to me that,

59:01

so I still think we have such a long

59:03

ways to go. It's like, thank God doctors are

59:05

finally waking up and saying it can be prescribed.

59:08

It's like one of the best ways to prevent

59:10

things with that. But the next layer to that

59:12

is like, hey, by the way, that's just scratching

59:14

the surface. This could be exponentially better

59:16

if you do it right. If you actually

59:18

approach it like with some sort of methodology,

59:20

not just like, go move, you know, which

59:22

is great, you're moving. And that was better

59:24

than eating Doritos. It's still throwing spaghetti on

59:26

the wall. It really is like

59:29

we still. Yeah, that's why I think personal trainers

59:31

are so amazing. Like, cause they're the front lines

59:33

for most people's health attorneys. 100% believe that the,

59:35

like the need for our profession is

59:40

only grown in the last decade. For

59:42

good trainers. Yeah, yeah. And when they're

59:44

getting more educated, like the amount of information, I mean,

59:46

God, could you imagine if you were a

59:49

trainer and you found these three knuckleheads talking like we

59:51

do, like, boy, I would have been good by year

59:53

three, you know, maybe year two. 15 years. Instead

59:57

it was terrible for half, for at least a decade.

1:00:00

Max, when was the first premiere of the documentary?

1:00:02

When did you first release it to the public

1:00:04

and had actual people come to a theater and

1:00:06

watch it? We, uh, in New York, um,

1:00:09

in, uh, your hometown. Yeah. My hometown. Yeah.

1:00:12

Which is where the film takes place. And,

1:00:14

uh, we did two, we had

1:00:16

two sold out showings at a theater

1:00:18

on 57th street. And then we did

1:00:20

the LA premieres and, um, San

1:00:23

Francisco, Chicago. And it

1:00:26

was just so great to, you know, go out. How was

1:00:28

it the first time it was in a theater? You sat

1:00:30

in the theater. It's on the big screen. Were you nervous?

1:00:32

Like, was it weird? Yeah. You know,

1:00:34

I'm so proud of it. And I

1:00:37

credit my, my producing partner, my

1:00:39

co-director for the project and, you

1:00:42

know, Chris Newhart, who co-directed the film with

1:00:44

me. And, uh, I'm,

1:00:46

uh, yeah, I mean, I guess I

1:00:48

was nervous to see how people, cause it is, it's

1:00:50

such a personal film too. Right. So I was nervous

1:00:52

to see. It would hurt to be criticized a little

1:00:54

bit. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Cause I'd

1:00:56

be so scared. Like we're watching, like looking

1:00:59

at the audience. Yeah. Do they think it sucks? Like,

1:01:01

did I like it? No, no, no. It's a, I

1:01:03

know that I'm biased, but, um, but I

1:01:05

didn't edit the film. So I feel like

1:01:07

I, I'm, I'm, I could talk more objectively

1:01:09

about the editing of it. I think, I

1:01:12

think my editor co-director did a fantastic job.

1:01:14

It's like, I think

1:01:16

it's, I, I mean, I definitely think it's the most,

1:01:18

um, it's the

1:01:20

most, uh, raw and intimate portrait of

1:01:22

dementia that's ever been captured on film.

1:01:24

And it's also the only film to

1:01:27

cover the science of dementia prevention. So

1:01:29

it's both a film that I think many people are going to relate

1:01:31

to, um, whether

1:01:34

or not they've had dementia in their family tree, but

1:01:36

certainly, certainly people that, that have experienced dementia, you know,

1:01:38

are going to find it incredibly relatable. They're going to

1:01:40

be able to find solace in

1:01:42

it and, and the, and feel the sense

1:01:44

truly and deeply that they're not alone in

1:01:46

this fight. Um, but then also

1:01:48

it's going to provide, I think, you

1:01:50

know, and again, I didn't make it

1:01:52

to be like, uh, uh, one of these like nutrition

1:01:54

documentaries, but I do think that it does kind of

1:01:57

paint the portrait, the landscape of, you know, the current

1:01:59

food environment. better than any other nutrition

1:02:01

documentary has done thus far. We're going to

1:02:03

go watch it tomorrow. Probably because you didn't

1:02:05

do it with that intent, where I feel

1:02:08

like all the other nutrition documentaries were done

1:02:10

with an agenda. Yeah. Again, there's no, like

1:02:12

you watch it, there's no magical diet that's

1:02:14

prescribed. Right. It's not like you're watching one

1:02:16

of these like even propaganda pieces

1:02:18

on it. Like there are

1:02:20

no easy answers. Because at the end of the day, I wasn't able to

1:02:23

save my mom. So it's not

1:02:25

like I came out of it as like a zealot for

1:02:27

one. We're going to go watch it tomorrow. Am I going

1:02:29

to cry? Max, because I don't like crying in public. Is

1:02:32

it one of the, is it a tearjerker, isn't it? I think

1:02:34

you might. Yeah. That's exactly why they want to watch it before.

1:02:36

You wanted us to watch it before and then I'm like, I

1:02:38

can't handle like two. No, bro. I watched the trailer. The Flash

1:02:40

or the Christ. You watch it one time. That's it. You should

1:02:42

handle that twice. When I came back, I went to do an

1:02:45

interview. I was on his show. And then

1:02:47

right before I left to get on the plane, he said,

1:02:49

oh, you got to watch this. The teaser? Yeah, dude, I

1:02:51

watched it. I got all choked up. Thanks, buddy. Now I'm

1:02:53

going to go get out of place. I'm

1:02:56

completely ignorant to this space. So if it's a

1:02:58

stupid question, I apologize. But I'm so curious

1:03:00

to like how this

1:03:02

process works as far as like from

1:03:04

here, like what is considered

1:03:06

a huge success, awards, can this turn into

1:03:08

a big thing and actually produce? What are

1:03:11

you looking for? Yeah. Yeah. In terms of

1:03:13

like where it goes from here. Thank

1:03:15

you for that. I mean, I don't know. I'm just,

1:03:17

you know, we've done it fully independently. We've been, we

1:03:20

submitted it early on to a number

1:03:22

of different like film festivals, you know, thinking that that

1:03:25

might be the appropriate. Does something like this go to

1:03:27

Sundance or something like that? Or does that? We got,

1:03:29

we got ignored basically. These festivals are

1:03:31

all incredibly political. It's all

1:03:33

about who you know. Of course. You know?

1:03:36

You didn't get an award though, I saw. Yeah. We

1:03:38

got a laurel. So we got Best Story from

1:03:41

Los Angeles documentary film festival. Great. Yeah, which is

1:03:43

cool. But we only, we only submitted

1:03:45

it to like a handful. We, you know, honestly,

1:03:47

this is me being vulnerable. I really did

1:03:49

want to get into Tribeca because the film

1:03:51

takes place in New York. And

1:03:55

I'd worked with Tribeca before and the film, it's

1:03:57

a great film, you know, but like. You

1:04:00

never know what these festivals want these days. It's

1:04:02

like, again, it's very political. It's like, did you

1:04:04

get your money from the right organization or film

1:04:06

fund or whatever? And

1:04:11

I did this, like we did this whole thing myself.

1:04:14

I mean, not myself, I worked with an incredible team,

1:04:16

but we did it all completely independently. And I've been

1:04:18

working on this film for 10 years, and

1:04:20

the team that helped me bring it to life, they

1:04:23

came on board about three years ago and made

1:04:26

it the masterpiece that I think it is.

1:04:28

But I mean, this has been something

1:04:30

that it's just been a labor of love. Nobody, it's

1:04:32

out of my own sheer will. It's something that

1:04:36

I've just continued to push forward. And we

1:04:39

did a crowdfunding campaign, which was amazing, but Hollywood

1:04:43

is very nepotistic. It's not a secret. It's

1:04:45

all about who you know. So

1:04:50

is it even possible to break through because of

1:04:52

that? Well, I

1:04:54

think it's possible. Hollywood

1:04:56

is also very risk averse. So if you can show data, once

1:04:59

you show independently that you're doing well, maybe don't say,

1:05:01

okay, we took the book. It's kind of like the

1:05:04

book game then a little bit? Yeah, a little bit

1:05:06

like that. You're invited to a Diddy party or anything?

1:05:08

No. Too long. He didn't even do that. No, no,

1:05:10

no, no, definitely not. Definitely not. But I'm hoping that

1:05:12

we get the appreciation, the

1:05:15

Hollywood appreciation that the film deserves. That would

1:05:17

be amazing. I love Hollywood.

1:05:19

I live in it pretty much. But

1:05:22

no, you have to kind of

1:05:24

just do

1:05:29

the things that you want to do. And I think

1:05:31

once you release the expectation that anybody

1:05:36

else is going to support you, it makes you

1:05:39

a lot more sovereign of a creator, of an

1:05:42

entity in this world. And that's how I've approached

1:05:44

my career thus far. Do you want to make

1:05:46

more film? Ask

1:05:50

me after this one's been done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, ask

1:05:52

me after. I don't know.

1:05:54

I mean, it was a real journey. It was a slog. And

1:06:00

I think I would if it was

1:06:03

able to be in partnership with one of these

1:06:05

like streamers and it would, and they, you know,

1:06:08

if, if it were somehow more

1:06:10

turnkey. Now,

1:06:13

is that possible? Like a, like a Netflix decides to

1:06:15

pick this up at one point? It's totally possible. Okay.

1:06:17

It's totally possible. That's what I'm looking for. Like how,

1:06:19

like what comes, what comes from here? And, and I

1:06:21

know you didn't say anything about like the monetization part

1:06:23

and money and so that, cause you're just like, Sal,

1:06:25

you don't really care about it. I don't. Yeah. I

1:06:27

know you don't. You're, you've always been that way since

1:06:29

today. And so, but is it possible

1:06:31

to actually make your money back and actually make some

1:06:33

money on this? Like, well, it is, you know, that

1:06:35

wasn't the intent. It's possible,

1:06:38

you know, and I would, so we're going to

1:06:40

do, we're going to do a, we're doing an

1:06:42

independent release. We're putting the film on little

1:06:44

empty boxes.com. People can rent it or

1:06:47

buy it. And, and that's the way to

1:06:49

really support independent filmmaking. It's just

1:06:51

the way to support my project. But,

1:06:54

you know, it does give me hope. Well,

1:06:57

on the one hand, Netflix is, is obviously, and

1:06:59

these, you know, streamers Netflix being, I guess the

1:07:01

most, the one that comes to mind because they

1:07:03

tend to get behind these like diet

1:07:05

focused documentaries so often.

1:07:08

It's disheartening that they continually seem to

1:07:10

get behind these nutrition

1:07:12

documentaries that seem to have this like

1:07:14

vegan bias. I don't, I don't really

1:07:16

understand why. Cause I think they, just

1:07:18

because they're more polarizing, they're more

1:07:21

polarizing, they get more, yeah, more, the more of I

1:07:23

out, I think they have a political goal. That's what

1:07:25

I think. Yeah. I don't know. But

1:07:27

then they also. The other side I seen Netflix

1:07:29

Netflix does that they go both, both sides. I

1:07:31

think it's like grilling. Yes. Or

1:07:34

like they'll, you know, I think they care about it

1:07:36

being content. I think they care more about it being

1:07:38

polarizing and it going viral and people arguing about it.

1:07:40

And if you don't, if you didn't take a hard

1:07:42

stance, you know, like you need to eat this way

1:07:44

or you're going to die. You know, like if you

1:07:46

didn't do that and scare people, you're not going to

1:07:48

get the people that get behind it that are already

1:07:50

drink the Kool-Aid. And you're not gonna get the people that

1:07:52

are like, are offended by it, that want to fight it.

1:07:54

Yeah. And so that's, I would guess that's what it has

1:07:56

more to do with. And then the political

1:07:58

side, of course. Yeah. It's. So frustrating though, you

1:08:01

know, cause it's like the twin, the

1:08:03

Netflix twins, twin study, the blue zones

1:08:05

show, what the hell? Like all of

1:08:07

these, like, you know, and they're terrible.

1:08:09

They're terrible. Yeah. And

1:08:11

they're like misleading and all that stuff. And so

1:08:14

yeah, I mean, I tried to do the best

1:08:16

that I could, you know, with, uh, with this

1:08:18

and not make any, there's, you

1:08:20

know, again, it's not, it's not a

1:08:23

carnivore documentary. It's not like, you

1:08:26

know, I think, um, people

1:08:29

lately, you know, or for the past couple

1:08:31

of years, I've definitely like leaned in on

1:08:34

promoting, I think the foods that are the

1:08:36

most stigmatized, those primarily being red meat, eggs,

1:08:38

things like that today, the

1:08:40

film doesn't really, you know, go into that at all. It's about

1:08:43

just the, this notion that,

1:08:46

you know, now for the first time, you

1:08:48

know, this idea that we can potentially

1:08:50

reduce our risk for dementia, even possibly

1:08:52

prevent it in a significant number of

1:08:54

cases, now creating wider acceptance, even among,

1:08:56

even, even within the nutritional or the

1:08:59

medical orthodoxy. And um, and

1:09:01

then we do have some sort of dietary take homes and things

1:09:03

like that. Um, again, it's super

1:09:05

illuminating, but it's not sort of like, uh,

1:09:08

you know, there is no sort of like one size fits

1:09:10

all diet. Cause that's not reality. There is, there is

1:09:12

no such thing as a one size fits all diet

1:09:14

or exercise regimen. And if you suggest as such, I

1:09:17

mean, you're wrong. You're wrong. Yeah. How's

1:09:20

your family, uh, feel about this? Your, your, your brother,

1:09:22

your dad, I mean, everybody's gotta be excited. Yeah. They

1:09:24

gave me a lot of shit when I was filming.

1:09:26

Um, but, uh, now they're very proud of

1:09:29

it and they're super happy. And my, my

1:09:31

middle brother actually came to the

1:09:33

LA premiere, um, the other day, the other

1:09:35

night, and he, uh, I

1:09:38

don't know him to be the most emotional guy, but he

1:09:40

cried during the film. Yeah. And

1:09:42

he said that he felt like he was like back in the

1:09:44

room, like with mom. And, um, and

1:09:47

that to me was, you know, I mean, that

1:09:49

was the best thing to hear. And that's how I feel about it. You

1:09:51

know, and, uh, and anyone

1:09:53

who's ever lost a parent or a loved one, like it's

1:09:56

really, it's really hard. Speaking of that, what, what are

1:09:58

the numbers on that? of people

1:10:01

that have somebody in their family that suffer from

1:10:03

the disease, how close is it to

1:10:05

most people? It's

1:10:07

pretty close. I mean, Alzheimer's disease in

1:10:09

the US, I believe about 6 million

1:10:11

people have it. That

1:10:15

number is set to at least triple in

1:10:18

the coming years. Wow. Yeah.

1:10:22

And it's a caregiver's disease. So I mean,

1:10:24

it's like, it's obviously really hard for the

1:10:26

person going through it, but

1:10:29

it's such an incredibly taxing

1:10:31

disease for the family. They

1:10:35

say that once you, you

1:10:37

lose somebody with Alzheimer's

1:10:39

disease twice, you

1:10:41

lose them essentially when their cognitive faculties go,

1:10:44

and then you lose them obviously when they pass away because

1:10:47

the condition is terminal. And

1:10:49

so it's really hard. Max,

1:10:51

you brought up ATP. Is creatine,

1:10:53

have they found creatine to be beneficial as

1:10:56

either preventative or? How

1:10:59

it increases ATP? It's a

1:11:01

super interesting question. Creatine is really important for the

1:11:03

brain and people who are genetically at risk for

1:11:06

Alzheimer's disease seem to have lower levels of

1:11:09

brain creatine. And

1:11:12

we do see that supplemental

1:11:15

creatine does seem to

1:11:17

improve cognitive performance. And

1:11:20

I think that's one of the reasons why so many people seem

1:11:22

to be talking about creatine now, because it's not just about

1:11:25

the physical performance. Yeah, people are now talking

1:11:27

about it as like this really important longevity

1:11:29

supplement. There's a fantastic

1:11:31

Canadian researcher named Darren Crando.

1:11:34

I don't know if you guys have had him on the show, but he's published

1:11:38

a lot on creatine. And it's like- Oh

1:11:40

really? Write that down, Doug. Yeah, Darren

1:11:42

Crando or Cando, I forget the exact last name,

1:11:44

but he's been on my show. He's a super

1:11:47

legit researcher, but

1:11:50

yeah, that's a hard sell. Like, I mean, I don't know

1:11:52

if you'd be able to get like your

1:11:55

average middle-aged woman supplement

1:11:57

with creatine, because it's so closely

1:11:59

associated with- with bodybuilding and stuff like that.

1:12:01

We've been trying to change that for like the

1:12:03

last billion, eight, nine years. Pretty

1:12:05

early on, Sal was coming out and talking about,

1:12:08

I mean, he predicted that like nine years ago, that

1:12:10

it will get marketed as a health supplement. It is.

1:12:13

And I predicted to be like put right there with

1:12:15

multivitamins, stuff like that, because of all the positive research

1:12:17

around it. So they'll give it to kids. We're gonna

1:12:19

start giving it to kids and pregnant women, is my

1:12:21

prediction. Yeah, yep, absolutely.

1:12:25

Max, I'm excited to watch this. Yeah,

1:12:27

tomorrow. I'm very excited to watch this. I'm so

1:12:29

proud of you, dude. Yeah, this is great, bro.

1:12:31

You're such a good guy. Anytime somebody

1:12:33

asks me about you, I mean, you're one of

1:12:35

the best people I know, very genuine, very good

1:12:37

man. My goal is that it's profitable from at

1:12:39

least the support of our community going out there.

1:12:42

And if you can't go to renting it and

1:12:44

doing that, because I know you don't really care

1:12:46

about that, but I think you

1:12:48

deserve that. So you should at least. You're one of

1:12:50

the best people in the space. Thank you, bro. So

1:12:52

I appreciate it. And I'm probably gonna cry. And so

1:12:54

I'm not gonna watch anybody afterwards. I don't like

1:12:56

doing that. Oh, man. I'll watch

1:12:58

you with sunglasses. Yeah, that's tough. And

1:13:01

it's great to hear how you talk about your

1:13:04

family. You're such a, you know, you love them so much. So

1:13:06

I'm sure they're so proud. I'm sure your mom is really proud of you

1:13:08

right now too. Thank you, brother. Yeah, yeah.

1:13:11

Appreciate it. Thank you, man. It

1:13:13

means a lot. Love you guys. Thanks. Thank

1:13:16

you for listening to Mind Pump. If your

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