0:00

This is a Glassbox Media Podcast.

0:06

on

0:30

Apple Podcasts,

1:01

I am Tim here today with

1:06

Lance. Lance, how

1:09

are you today?

1:21

I am doing so well today, Tim. I hope everyone

1:23

out there who's listening, I hope they're doing

1:25

just as well as I'm doing. And

1:28

a lot of this

1:30

good feeling comes from the conversation

1:32

that we had just

1:34

a couple of days ago with this wonderful

1:36

woman. She's searching for her mom, but

1:39

it gets a lot more deeper and a lot more spiritual,

1:41

which I totally appreciate. And I think the

1:43

listeners will as well. But Tim, I want to appreciate

1:45

how you are. How are you? I'm

1:48

doing all right. Thanks a lot for asking. Yeah.

1:50

So in this episode, we speak with Carolyn

1:53

Ford. She is the daughter of Leona

1:56

Kinsey, who has been missing since 1999.

1:59

nine from La Grande,

2:01

Oregon. And we produced

2:05

a part one on Leona's

2:07

case with Lieutenant Hayes

2:09

of the La Grande police department. So you

2:11

may want to scroll back. It's one

2:14

of our latest episodes, scroll back

2:16

a few to hear that one,

2:18

but this is with Leona's daughter, Carolyn.

2:22

And it's obviously a little bit of a different

2:24

vibe. We get an emotional take

2:26

on Leona's disappearance. And I just

2:28

love it when these series of episodes come

2:30

together where we can have law enforcement on talking

2:33

about the details and the

2:35

motivation that law enforcement has to

2:38

bring answers to the family. But like you just

2:40

said, this one has a different feel to it. It

2:42

is incredibly emotional,

2:44

but Carolyn really keeps it together

2:46

and so well

2:49

articulates the story. And

2:51

there's a moment here that I think

2:53

everyone's going to take something different

2:55

away from where she tells a story about her and her mom

2:57

and they were talking about death and without

3:00

giving anything away, you really need to listen to that

3:02

because it's one of the first times a guest has

3:04

come on and told a

3:06

story like that because when we heard

3:08

it, we just like, we had nothing after. It was just

3:10

such an amazing moment. Yeah, it really was.

3:13

And let us know what you think on social media

3:16

at missing CSM. And we were

3:18

introduced to Carolyn by the Light

3:20

the Way organization. And you can

3:22

check out everything that Light the Way does

3:24

at their website, LightTheWayMissing.com.

3:28

Leona has brown hair, brown eyes,

3:31

is 5'2", 110 pounds, and was 46 years old at

3:36

the time of her disappearance. And there is currently

3:38

a reward for information leading

3:41

to Leona Kinsey's whereabouts in this

3:43

case. So if you have any information,

3:46

please call the LeGrand Police Department

3:49

at 541-963-1017. And

3:54

Tim, before we break for a commercial

3:56

and return with Carolyn, I just want to wish

3:58

you and yours and all of our listeners a happy Thanksgiving. I'm happy

4:00

thanksgiving.

4:01

Happy holidays to you Lance and happy holidays

4:04

to our listeners.

4:04

Thanks a lot for listening to this. We really appreciate

4:07

you. We'll be right back with Carolyn.

4:14

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4:54

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5:01

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5:03

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5:23

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That's N-O-O-M dot

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com to sign up today. Tim and Lance

6:11

here. Lance, I got a question for ya. Yes,

6:14

sir. Am I the butthead for stealing

6:16

an engagement ring or for ruining

6:19

an entire dog Olympics? Is

6:21

that something you've actually done, Tim,

6:23

or are you presenting me with a hypothetical

6:25

scenario? I'm presenting you with a hypothetical

6:28

scenario that's based on rslash,

6:31

which is a new podcast that I've been listening

6:33

to. It's fantastic. Tim, and you know

6:35

that I love a good Reddit scroll,

6:38

so rslash is my kind

6:40

of show. I think it's your kind of

6:42

show as well, and for those who don't know, rslash

6:45

is a hilarious podcast where

6:47

Dabney Bailey uses ridiculous

6:50

voices and emotions to read

6:52

aloud the week's craziest Reddit

6:54

posts. He reenacts various Reddit threads

6:56

covering wild stories and secrets,

6:59

petty revenge, relationships, and much more. So

7:01

if you're looking for a daily distraction

7:04

and a laugh, check out rslash

7:06

wherever you get your podcasts. Tim,

7:09

can you spell that for me? Sure can, Lance.

7:11

That's r-s-l-a-s-h. Welcome

7:24

to the podcast. Carolyn,

7:26

how are you today? I'm great.

7:28

Thank you for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure to have

7:30

you on, and I'm so glad that we're finally able to do

7:33

this interview. It's been a long

7:35

time coming. We were connected

7:38

through the wonderful organization Light the Way

7:40

Missing. Can you talk

7:43

to us about who you are? Not only

7:46

your work with Light the Way and why you're connected to them,

7:48

but you're also very, very, very—I can't

7:51

emphasize it enough—heavily involved in the Missing

7:53

and Murdered Indigenous Women movement

7:56

in your area. So for anyone who doesn't

7:58

know you, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself? fill

8:00

our listeners in on exactly who you

8:03

are and what you do. My

8:04

name is Carolyn DeFord. I am a Perales

8:07

tribal member. I also have a Swalley

8:09

tribal descendancy

8:12

on my mother's side and

8:13

Scottish Irish French on my father's

8:16

side.

8:17

I currently live

8:20

in the Swalley tribal territory and I

8:22

work from Indians in

8:25

the Community Domestic Violence Advocacy

8:26

Program as their anti-trafficking

8:30

program manager and MMIWP

8:32

advocate. My mother, Leona

8:34

Lekwinkinzi, went missing October

8:36

25th, 1999, so we're approaching that 25-year anniversary of her

8:42

disappearance.

8:44

Just a couple of years after that, my cousin,

8:46

Lenora Davis- Lawrence, was

8:48

murdered and so she

8:51

was responding to a call for help from a

8:53

friend who was experiencing domestic violence.

8:56

Both of those experiences

8:59

really shook my family, especially

9:01

my aunties and my

9:03

matriarchs who lost their daughter and

9:05

niece and their sister within a very short period

9:08

of time. I started

9:10

doing

9:11

advocacy for families of

9:13

missing, just families of missing

9:16

very organically. I didn't realize

9:19

what I was doing was advocacy. It was

9:23

empathy to me. I would

9:25

just reach out to other families who had

9:27

loved ones missing. Back then it

9:29

was Myspace and Facebook

9:31

had kind of started kind of creeping in a little

9:34

bit

9:34

and I

9:37

was learning that families needed the same thing that I did.

9:39

We needed to talk,

9:40

but there was nowhere to talk about it and I often

9:45

protected my family from these emotions by

9:47

not talking about it with

9:49

them. I think they protected me the same

9:51

way from these hard emotions

9:54

by not talking about it with

9:56

me. If I cried, they would stop. If

9:59

they cried, I would stop.

9:59

I would stop, but we didn't realize,

10:02

or at least I didn't realize, that we needed

10:04

to cry.

10:04

We needed to get it out.

10:07

We needed to process our story

10:09

and how we felt and how it impacted us

10:11

and

10:12

our grief. And, you

10:14

know, other families needed that too. And so that was

10:16

kind of how I got started into the advocacy

10:19

side of things. I currently sit on

10:21

the Washington State Missing and Murdered Indigenous

10:23

Women and Peoples Task Force as

10:25

the co-chair for the family's

10:28

representation in the family subcommittee.

10:32

I've also volunteered

10:34

my time with Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women USA

10:38

as an admin on their Facebook page and

10:40

doing outreach to families who may

10:42

need awareness and

10:44

help

10:44

creating posters and

10:48

just support getting the word out.

10:50

In 2017, I started

10:53

Missing and Murdered Native Americans, which

10:55

is a, we're a couple of volunteer,

10:58

women volunteers who have missing and murdered

11:01

Indigenous relatives. And

11:03

we volunteer our time and resources

11:06

and, you know, out of pocket to

11:09

support families in any way that we can. Primarily

11:12

at this time, it's through

11:14

social media outreach and connection to

11:16

resources and referral and just emotional

11:19

support.

11:19

It's amazing collection of

11:21

work that you do. And you said so

11:24

eloquently that you didn't realize you were

11:26

doing advocacy because

11:28

it was coming from more of an empathetic

11:31

place. And I'm just wondering, like, with

11:33

your background and your culture, that

11:36

must have had a huge impact

11:39

or huge influence on your

11:41

empathetic

11:42

qualities. Is that pretty accurate?

11:45

I think so. You know, it was,

11:48

it also made me feel like,

11:51

still feel very strongly that connecting

11:54

with other families, being, for lack

11:56

of better words, being what I needed, I

11:59

needed somebody.

12:00

And there was no one kind of has

12:02

made

12:02

this whole experience have

12:04

some kind of a sense of purpose

12:07

If that sounds right, but it's not in

12:09

vain, you know, I'm not letting this happen I'm

12:12

not letting this happen and not benefit somebody

12:14

I'm curious. Is there

12:16

some crossover in your work

12:19

in human trafficking and

12:21

in domestic violence?

12:23

Oh, this is a whole nother podcast We

12:26

could go on for days, but you know domestic violence

12:29

often trafficking survivors are groomed

12:31

and lured by romantic romantic

12:34

partners or the potential for for love

12:37

There's that connection that romantic

12:39

connection and the domestic violence into

12:41

a

12:41

partner connection to trafficking

12:43

but also nearly 62% of

12:46

our trafficking survivors

12:48

nationwide have been lured into

12:50

into trafficking,

12:53

prostitution, or sex work by Somebody

12:55

that they know a family member

12:57

an intimate partner You

13:00

know somebody who is close to them and so often that

13:02

connection itself is

13:04

a domestic violence connection

13:06

And you're so right that this is a completely

13:08

different or separate but related

13:11

podcast episode we speak

13:13

with family members and You

13:17

know this is especially parents mothers who

13:19

will talk to us about their daughter

13:21

who's missing and it's just so clearly

13:24

Evident that the missing part of it

13:26

was due to the domestic violence I

13:28

mean, there's so much evidence that this

13:31

is a direct link and

13:33

I'm just this question is Probably

13:36

nothing that any one of us can answer. But do

13:38

you find it to be the same case that? when

13:41

you're Working with

13:43

these families all of this Evidence

13:47

had been present but just very subtle

13:49

leading up to a disappearance or a Moment

13:53

of abuse that's so significant and send somebody

13:55

to the hospital. Yeah,

13:57

I think trafficking and domestic violence

13:59

probably

13:59

our integral in the 90%

14:02

of the families that I talk to. And

14:06

whether we see it immediately within our family

14:09

or on outside, we see some of the

14:11

indicators more clearly than we do inside

14:14

as a whole other.

14:15

Sometimes I can see things that look like indicators.

14:17

Or sometimes

14:20

the family has a suspicion that the

14:22

sentiment partner

14:23

may have been trying

14:25

to engage this person in prostitution.

14:28

Or there is a known history of

14:31

either sex work or human

14:33

trafficking. But there's usually

14:35

something there. And

14:37

a majority of them, I don't

14:40

have a statistic, but I can't think of any

14:42

off the top of my head that there hasn't

14:44

been some

14:46

active addiction or substance

14:49

abuse component as well.

14:51

OK. So your

14:53

mom's been missing since October 25, 1999.

14:58

Can you tell us about her? What's

15:01

she like?

15:01

My mom was funny. She

15:03

was compassionate. She was the

15:05

kind of person that would do without

15:08

to give to others. She was creative

15:10

and artistic

15:11

and independent.

15:15

She didn't count on anybody for

15:17

anything. She would always say, I'll do

15:19

it myself, or you can do it yourself. If

15:22

I would talk about needing help with something, she'd

15:24

say, you don't need help with that. You can do that.

15:26

So she was very independent and encouraging

15:28

and empowering

15:29

to me to watch my

15:31

mom do things that you wouldn't

15:34

think that a 100-pound, 5-foot-3

15:36

little woman would be

15:38

doing. She loved the

15:41

outdoors, hunting and fishing

15:43

and just being out

15:45

in the woods. She loved gardening

15:47

and traditional medicines. And part

15:50

of it was necessity. We didn't have a lot of

15:52

money, but our freezer was full of things,

15:55

food that my parents had harvested or

15:58

gathered. And so.

16:00

We ate a very healthy whole

16:03

diet. My mom

16:06

had a goofy, silly sense of

16:08

humor,

16:09

and she always had nicknames

16:11

for people,

16:12

and people always thought that that

16:14

was funny. Like, where did she get that? You know, like

16:17

I had one friend that she called Squeak, and

16:20

we don't know where she came up with

16:21

that one, but she did. My mom

16:24

also struggled with her

16:27

own issues. She was a victim of sexual assault

16:29

and domestic violence. She coped

16:32

with that, you know, in the not the

16:34

most healthy way, and she struggled

16:36

with substance abuse for

16:38

several years, and she

16:40

fought a lot against that. She

16:42

went to treatment and was seeking

16:45

treatment at the time of her disappearance, and,

16:47

you know, it wasn't until I got older and I started looking

16:50

at

16:50

my mom's story from an advocate

16:53

lens, not from a daughter lens, and

16:56

my mom fought for her recovery. She really

16:58

did want to be clean and

17:01

want to be there for her family and her

17:03

grandkids, and I used to try and keep

17:06

that. You know, I was raised to keep those skeletons

17:09

in the closet. You don't talk about addiction

17:11

in your family. You just don't talk about

17:13

it. I realized I wasn't protecting

17:15

anybody. You know, I wasn't helping anybody

17:18

by not being real. My

17:21

mom's not the only one, you know? Like, I'm not

17:23

the only family member who has had

17:25

to

17:26

grow up seeing and witnessing

17:29

their loved ones struggle, so I try

17:31

to be as honest as I can about it while

17:33

I still, you know, there's still that

17:36

kind of stigma or stereotype about not talking

17:38

about it and making sure that what I

17:40

say isn't able to be twisted into

17:43

a victim-blaming, you know, situation.

17:46

Yeah, one of the major

17:48

points that we always try to emphasize is

17:51

that the person who's missing,

17:55

typically the circumstances

17:57

of any addiction or any sort of addiction,

18:00

vice, it doesn't really matter. I

18:02

mean, it matters in the investigation, but

18:04

it should never matter in how the public is

18:06

perceiving this person who's missing because

18:09

it's family members who are looking and it's family members

18:11

who are constantly reminded and, and

18:13

the, the, the wound

18:15

is always open and, and the,

18:17

the addiction and the vice, yeah, leave that to the

18:20

police, like leave that to the people who are investigating

18:22

it. Because it really shouldn't matter

18:24

when you're looking at it from like a public

18:27

point of view, but it takes like

18:29

a hugely strong person to go to recovery,

18:32

to go to rehab,

18:34

to say, I have a problem. Just,

18:37

just admitting it and saying it out loud is

18:39

way stronger than hiding it

18:42

and, and being secretive about your addiction.

18:45

Uh, so it sounds like your mom obviously

18:48

wanted to make

18:50

herself a more healthy individual and

18:53

you were saying about how having, you know, there's always

18:55

food in the freezer and they would, you know, gather

18:58

and, and they'd bring food in. Uh,

19:00

and she was always saying that you could do things yourself.

19:04

Where did that come from? Where, where was, was

19:06

that something that she was raised to do? And

19:08

I feel like, I feel like that goes hand in hand with

19:10

the recovery. Like, Hey, I'm going to take on, take

19:13

this on myself. Yeah. I think, you

19:15

know, just culturally we were hunters

19:16

and gatherers. My mom was raised to, you know,

19:19

coming from a native family, hunting was,

19:22

was a integral part

19:24

of our

19:24

culture and our way of life.

19:26

And

19:27

when she met my stepdad, who was an outdoors,

19:30

many was a logger. It just kind of fell

19:32

hand in hand. She was able to spend the time that

19:34

she enjoyed out in the woods with him

19:37

and, and in the forest, um, you

19:39

know, gathering medicines or huckleberries

19:42

or blackberries or mushrooms.

19:45

And culturally, I think that was a good fit for

19:47

her independence. Um,

19:50

my

19:50

mom comes from a long line of independent women.

19:53

I think, you know, my, my great grandmother

19:55

and my grandmother, my aunties,

19:59

all very. very independent

20:01

and strong women. So

20:03

I think you know she just had that example

20:06

to

20:06

live up to.

20:07

And tell us about

20:10

what your life was like at

20:12

the time of your mom's disappearance.

20:14

I was 25 years old. I lived in

20:18

Olympia, Washington which is

20:20

five to six hours away from

20:23

where my mom lived or my hometown where

20:25

I grew up in Legrand, Oregon. And I

20:27

had three small children so it wasn't really

20:29

five or six hours. It was like an eight, nine hour drive

20:32

by the time you stop and let them you know

20:34

walk and potty and

20:36

get food and you know all of that

20:38

stuff. So I didn't go home very often.

20:40

I also was a

20:43

you know as a single mom and

20:45

and sole provider for my family. I didn't

20:47

have

20:48

I didn't have any extra money

20:51

for trips. So tax return time

20:53

that was usually something

20:53

that we would save

20:56

up to do to go visit one another.

20:58

My kids were you know five and under.

21:01

My daughter you know five of the oldest,

21:04

four and two years old. So

21:07

I had a I had a pretty full plate. I worked

21:10

full-time and

21:13

my mom she wrote regularly

21:16

you know she wrote a letter at least

21:18

twice a minute. She would send a care

21:20

package about once

21:21

a month and it was always full of silly things

21:23

like booger shaped

21:25

candies or candy

21:28

poop or

21:29

books,

21:31

little packing

21:34

toy keychains and stuff like that.

21:36

Costume you know pieces of costumes,

21:39

sombreros and and

21:41

little hats and things like that for the kids to play

21:44

with. And

21:45

she would always put five dollars

21:47

in those packages and saying

21:49

get something little for yourself you know buy

21:51

yourself a soda because we

21:53

didn't have money you know like

21:56

I didn't have the extra money to go

21:58

to the gas station and get a soda.

21:59

it was gas. You know there

22:02

there weren't

22:03

I didn't have any money for those extras and so

22:05

that little treat of you

22:07

know

22:08

having a couple dollars extra was always nice.

22:11

And when did you hear

22:13

that your mom went missing?

22:15

You know I heard that she went missing on the 25th Nancy

22:17

called and Nancy was

22:19

my mom's best friend. They had been friends

22:22

since I was in about fourth fifth grade

22:25

and Nancy called and asked if my

22:27

mom was here and

22:29

well she left a message at my work.

22:31

You know that whole day

22:32

was

22:34

in hindsight it was a very spiritual

22:37

day at the moment I just thought I was a wreck

22:39

but I woke up that morning and I

22:42

cried I cried about everything.

22:43

I cried getting

22:46

dressed I cried walking out the door I cried because

22:49

I had to go pick up my kids at my dad's house I

22:51

cried because I had to go to work

22:52

I cried everything and

22:55

I didn't know why I just I just thought

22:57

that I was unhappy you know I'm

23:00

just depressed there's so much stress and so many

23:02

things going on in life that I can't keep up with

23:04

and I just wanted to be able to stay home and rest

23:07

and I and I couldn't and so

23:10

I got to work and I was crying

23:12

when I walked in the door and been crying all day

23:14

so I was puffy-eyed and my

23:17

co-worker said go ahead and go home we've

23:19

got your shift cover don't

23:20

don't worry about us we're fine

23:22

go home and I was like I'm just

23:25

having a bad day I'll be fine and they

23:27

asked if I had heard from Nancy my

23:29

mom's friend that Nancy called and left a message

23:32

and they gave Nancy my phone number and I said

23:34

no

23:35

I you know I haven't heard

23:37

from her but you

23:39

know I'll be fine they're like we'll call us call her

23:41

first don't you know call her before you quark it

23:44

so I called her and she said that my

23:46

mom had said the night before that she was going to come

23:48

over and

23:49

she was gonna go meet a man named John

23:51

at the store and she would be over afterwards

23:54

and she didn't show up and Nancy was

23:56

hoping that my mom had

23:59

decided to

23:59

come see me

24:00

and I hadn't heard from her.

24:03

She wasn't there. I told Nancy,

24:05

I didn't know, you know, I don't know, she's

24:07

not here, you know, I don't know what to what

24:09

to tell you. I'll call her, you know, I'll call around

24:11

and see if she'll, you know, return my call

24:14

and so I was calling her and paging

24:16

her and she wasn't answering, you

24:19

know, and at that time I didn't have cell phones but

24:22

I was still, I still thought there

24:24

was something, there was an explanation.

24:26

Maybe

24:26

she had a flat tire or

24:28

a dead

24:29

battery or something, you

24:31

know, something happened

24:33

and she couldn't get to a payphone to call anybody.

24:37

So I wasn't too worried. Nancy

24:39

was more worried and Nancy was driving around

24:41

town, you know, it's a small town, La Grande's

24:43

not very big and even

24:47

smaller circle that my mom was

24:49

a part of and Nancy drove around looking

24:51

for her and asked everybody that they knew

24:54

and and looked for her, you know,

24:56

for a full

24:57

almost, you know, 12 hours before

25:00

she called me and so Nancy

25:02

was worried and my mom had left the dog

25:04

outside and that was not, you

25:07

know, the dog was, I moved away

25:09

and the dog became the good kid. Like

25:12

my mom took care of that dog like,

25:15

like better than a child and

25:18

there was no way she would have left and left the

25:20

dog

25:21

outside, you know, for any amount

25:23

of time more than to go to the gas

25:25

station. She wouldn't have left the dog outside

25:27

to go to the store and then go to Nancy's.

25:30

I didn't question if she would have left it

25:32

outside that time of year to

25:34

go to the store, you know, we were

25:37

end of October it was cold and she,

25:41

it just wasn't like her to do that.

25:44

So that was kind of concerning to both

25:46

of us but I

25:47

just thought there's got to be, there's

25:50

got to be some kind of an explanation.

25:51

My mom

25:53

and what was the state of her

25:55

home after the

25:58

realization came to be that she was in

26:00

fact missing?

26:01

Her house was like she, I mean

26:03

my mom is always very tidy. She's

26:07

a collector of things so she had

26:09

a lot of

26:11

neat things you know interesting things

26:13

and

26:14

so her home was full but it was always clean

26:16

and tidy and you know she

26:19

as a child she was a housekeeper so

26:21

when I grew up she was always cleaning houses

26:24

for prominent folks in the community and

26:26

to pride in keeping the house clean so you

26:30

know there were a couple of things out of place

26:33

and things that indicated that she didn't plan

26:36

on being gone you know nothing

26:38

was disarray or anything there was

26:40

no sign of anything having

26:42

been broken but she had a full

26:44

pot of coffee in the coffee pot and

26:47

she had a bunch

26:49

of bananas on the table and they had started

26:51

to turn brown and get old and she

26:54

had a full loaf of bread. My mom's

26:57

storage her cigarettes in the refrigerator

26:59

and there was a full cart in the cigarettes

27:01

in the refrigerator like there

27:03

was nothing there indicating that she

27:05

had planned on leaving.

27:07

And

27:08

you said that she was going to the store

27:11

to meet a man named John. Is

27:13

this somebody that she knew? Is this the

27:16

John that is associated

27:18

with her disappearance?

27:20

Yeah John or one was

27:22

the person of interest but my mom called him

27:24

John. I had never met him

27:26

before and I don't really know if Nancy

27:28

met him but Nancy knew

27:31

of him. You said you never met him?

27:35

I left home when I was about 21

27:37

and moved to Washington to be closer

27:39

to my dad and I was also in an unhealthy relationship

27:42

and so

27:45

I was getting away from that

27:48

and my

27:49

mom and I didn't share the same lifestyle as

27:51

adults and so I didn't have any real

27:53

connection with any of her associates

27:56

or people that she hung out with other than other

27:59

than Nancy.

27:59

or people that were in her life

28:01

as a child.

28:03

And how far away was the store from

28:05

her home? And what type of store was

28:07

it? Was it like a 7-Eleven or supermarket?

28:10

It was at Albertsons and it was

28:12

in a small plaza, Legrand's a

28:14

small town, so we called it the mall, but there's probably

28:16

only eight little stores in it.

28:18

So Legrand was in that small plaza

28:21

and there was a gas station in the

28:23

parking lot and a small restaurant in the parking

28:25

lot,

28:26

I think with Skippers. And there

28:29

was a corner of that parking lot, I

28:31

guess, that she would meet people

28:34

at or park

28:36

when she was meeting with John. And

28:38

it was maybe not

28:41

even five minutes from her home.

28:43

What is in Albertsons?

28:45

It's kind of like a Safeway. It's

28:49

a larger grocery store.

28:51

And so it's not, I guess, uncommon

28:53

for your mom to

28:55

maybe pop out and just grab something real quick and

28:57

head back?

28:58

Yeah. Okay.

29:00

Do you feel like when she said that she was meeting this

29:02

man named John, that that was

29:04

a way of her saying that

29:06

she didn't feel safe in any way? I

29:08

don't know because Nancy's

29:11

concerns was that there were rumors in town.

29:13

The first thing Nancy, one

29:16

of the first things Nancy said was

29:18

that there were rumors in town that my mom

29:20

was a snitch. And a couple

29:22

of weeks prior to that, somebody

29:24

had spray painted Narcon on the front of my mom's home

29:27

and my mom was really upset about it. I

29:29

mean, my mom's home was an older

29:32

single wide trailer,

29:33

the aluminum with

29:35

the hitch on the front and had

29:38

a little tip out. It wasn't anything

29:40

fancy, but my mom kept it maintained

29:43

and somebody had spray painted Narcon on

29:45

the front of that. And so my mom was really, really

29:48

upset. And

29:50

so Nancy was concerned that there were people in town

29:53

thought that she was a snitch. And I think

29:55

that that was a concern for my mom's

29:57

love being for Nancy. I didn't

29:59

know.

29:59

anything about

30:02

that? And then the rumor being,

30:04

you know, what I'd heard was that John

30:07

was her supplier, John was where she

30:10

would go to buy

30:11

and

30:14

Nancy was just concerned that

30:16

something might have happened.

30:18

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32:17

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And now we're back to the program. Wow.

33:57

Yeah, that's a pretty exciting.

34:00

Extreme thing I guess

34:02

someone spray painting narc on on

34:04

the door Did I

34:07

guess from your conversations

34:09

with Nancy did did she

34:11

or your mom? Have

34:13

any idea who they thought that was who did that?

34:16

No, not that I'm aware of I

34:20

I don't think

34:21

if Nancy did I

34:24

Didn't hear about

34:26

it

34:27

But what I was told was

34:29

that my mom had gotten my mom

34:31

was in contact with law enforcement I don't know if she

34:34

was involved in some kind of a of

34:36

a bus door. She got caught with I

34:39

think maybe pot

34:40

at the time, but

34:43

After

34:44

that people in my mom's circle were

34:47

getting arrested and so the rumor was you

34:49

know As far as Nancy was concerned

34:51

the rumor around town was that my mom was involved

34:54

in that

34:54

Because she hadn't gotten arrested

34:56

or because her arrest was just put

34:59

You know everybody else had larger,

35:01

you know bigger charges and she just had pop

35:04

I don't know if that is fact, you

35:06

know I haven't seen any arrest records

35:08

or anything like that prior to my mom's

35:11

disappearance to know, you know What

35:13

if there was anything?

35:15

Of that nature involved, but that

35:17

was the rumor right right. So

35:19

it wasn't so much She

35:22

definitely was doing the the the informing

35:25

But the rumor was that she was doing

35:27

the informing because of the circumstances

35:30

of her arrest for just having pot on

35:32

her and do you know personally

35:34

think that her disappearance is related to the

35:38

individuals who Wrote

35:40

an arc on the door. I don't

35:41

know. I don't know who it was I

35:44

I have always felt that her disappearance

35:46

was was related to John that John

35:49

was involved and that there were other

35:51

people in her close circle who knew

35:55

More than they came forward with

35:58

and still no more than they

35:59

let on. And I think

36:02

that they didn't feel safe, that they knew what happened to

36:04

my mom and they didn't feel safe

36:06

to speak up about it.

36:07

Or maybe even their involvement was forced,

36:10

you know,

36:11

as well. And so they would be incriminating

36:13

themselves or something. I don't know, you

36:15

know, your imagination can go a hundred different

36:18

directions.

36:20

And I've probably imagined thousands

36:23

of scenarios. Right.

36:25

And was John well

36:27

known in your mom's circles? Did

36:30

like everybody know him and know of him

36:32

and everything?

36:33

I'm not sure. I know several people

36:35

knew of him and

36:38

but I don't know whether, I

36:41

don't know how tight he was in my mom's

36:43

circle. And when

36:45

we spoke with Lieutenant Hayes,

36:48

he mentioned that John

36:50

might be in Mexico now. Do

36:53

you think that changes anything for anyone

36:55

else in the area who may have information? I

36:58

hope so. You know, I hope

37:00

folks that had

37:01

met for pieces of information

37:04

are safe enough to come

37:06

forward or, you know, to

37:08

share

37:09

even anonymously, you know, what they

37:12

heard or what they knew. Over

37:15

the years people have messaged me on social media.

37:17

Somebody messaged me once and said when

37:20

she was young and dumb and drugging

37:22

in Legrand, she

37:25

was up in the mountains and somebody told her

37:27

if you ever work for the police in Legrand

37:29

regarding the drugs here, you'll end

37:31

up in the bottom of a hole on the top

37:33

of Mount Emily like Leona.

37:36

And so she was very specific about in a hole

37:38

working with the police with drugs and my mom,

37:41

you know, being that my mom's name.

37:43

And I think, you

37:45

know, those rumors came from somewhere,

37:47

you know.

37:49

Wow. Yeah, that's a lot

37:51

of stuff to process. I mean, how are

37:53

you, how do you compartmentalize all of the

37:56

different rumors and the things that

37:59

you've to be fact. I'm not

38:01

sure if I do. I think there's a lot of disassociating. It gets really hard sometimes.

38:04

I have a hard time. Yeah, it gets hard. I

38:06

can compartmentalize it sometimes

38:09

as far as what I can do now is limited and

38:11

moving forward.

38:21

But at the time of my mom's disappearance,

38:24

I didn't have the time or the resources

38:26

to

38:27

stop

38:28

living. I had

38:30

three small children that depended on me as

38:33

it was when I went to my mom's house and

38:35

came home. I went there the first week of November.

38:38

I got there November 9th. It

38:40

had taken me that long. I had to wait two weeks to

38:42

get paid.

38:45

It took me a little bit to get the resources to go

38:47

there.

38:48

A lot of

38:50

it is a blur.

38:52

A lot of it is just

38:54

blurry. But I also

38:57

couldn't stop working.

39:00

As it

39:02

was, I came home from that trip and my lights

39:04

were shut off. I

39:06

was late on my rent. I

39:10

had to try and figure that out. I couldn't

39:13

take the time that I needed at that time to cope

39:15

with it.

39:16

A lot of our families can't. It takes

39:18

time and there really wasn't any. I

39:23

had a really strong,

39:26

naive, disillusioned

39:28

sense of what happens

39:30

when somebody is reported missing, of what

39:33

law enforcement

39:33

can and can't do, what resources

39:35

they have, and how you process

39:38

a case like this. I admittedly

39:41

had these television

39:44

ideas of what would happen

39:46

in my head. I had a lot of faith

39:49

that

39:49

they would find her.

39:53

Earlier, Tim had

39:55

mentioned Lt. Jason Hayes, who

39:57

we spoke to on a previous episode.

40:00

episode and you just mentioned

40:02

law enforcement and you had all of these preconceived

40:05

notions based on what we all see in the media

40:07

and on television. Can

40:09

you tell us a little bit about your relationship with Lieutenant

40:12

Hayes and how that came

40:14

to be and I guess

40:17

what your impression is of the department?

40:20

Because when we spoke with him, it was just so rare

40:22

for us to have a member of

40:24

law enforcement on who's actively investigating

40:26

a cold case, especially one from 1999. That's

40:32

something that he clearly is

40:34

just so dedicated to bringing

40:37

some conclusion to. What's your working

40:39

relationship with him and the department? Starting

40:41

with the department, when I first reported

40:43

my mom's case, I reported my mom missing

40:46

picking up the phone. I remember the

40:49

phone feeling so heavy and

40:52

not really being able to speak. Something

40:55

that I said came out

40:56

in a whisper. I couldn't

40:58

push enough. I couldn't make a

41:00

voice.

41:03

The detective at that time,

41:04

so I have to draw this comparison,

41:06

the detective at that time

41:10

was a jerk. He

41:12

was insensitive.

41:15

I didn't feel like he cared at

41:17

all. He hung up on me once.

41:24

I quit reaching out to them because

41:26

he was so ... I'm not

41:29

going

41:31

to do it. I'm not going to talk to them. I'm not going to talk

41:33

to him. It

41:35

took a while. After a couple of years,

41:37

I would call and ask for updates

41:40

and the case had changed.

41:41

Detective Shaw was

41:44

working for the case at that time and he

41:47

would take

41:47

the time to talk to me. I would be very

41:49

compassionate and take the time to listen to

41:51

me and give me updates.

41:54

I appreciated that. Shaw was like night and

41:56

day

41:57

compared to our first

41:59

detective.

41:59

And I started talking

42:02

to and working with Hayes maybe

42:05

five or six years ago. And over

42:07

the last two years, he's

42:09

been

42:10

very receptive to what

42:13

we've requested or answering questions

42:16

or looking into things. And I appreciate

42:18

that so much.

42:20

I'll probably never be, never feel

42:24

like all the I's are dotted and T's

42:26

are crossed in my mom's case. And

42:28

some of them are too late to go back

42:30

and do.

42:32

But I appreciate

42:34

his willingness to work

42:37

with me, to work with Light The Way,

42:39

to take the time to help

42:41

get the word out and speak with

42:44

folks like you. Great. Yeah.

42:46

And how has the Light

42:48

The Way group helped

42:50

you?

42:51

Well, I was introduced to them through

42:53

Melinda Jedaburk, who I went to high school

42:55

with. And she also works on the

42:58

Finley Creek Jane Doe Task Force. And so

43:01

we were in contact through social

43:03

media and she volunteered

43:05

or offered to help in my mom's case.

43:08

And

43:09

I can't say how much I appreciate

43:11

her and her resources that she

43:13

had with the Finley Creek

43:15

Jane Doe and how much progress she made on that.

43:18

And connecting me with different podcasts

43:21

and connecting me with Light The Way and kind

43:23

of really being able

43:25

to be the boots on the ground and the grand that

43:27

I can't,

43:29

I wouldn't have connected with them had it

43:31

not

43:32

been with her. And

43:35

Light The Way has been, we have a group chat going

43:37

and anytime I have a question or a concern

43:39

or something pops into my

43:41

head, we can talk about those

43:44

things. And so they've been

43:47

able to advocate for me or for

43:49

my mom in ways that I was never

43:52

able to separate the emotional

43:55

stress and my own

43:58

anger and frustration.

43:59

You know, I can be angry and frustrated

44:02

with them and not shut them down

44:04

or sound or look crazy and they

44:06

can carry that. They can represent what

44:09

I'm feeling a little bit more tactfully

44:11

than I can. It's

44:13

always good to have a group of people that can

44:16

be confidently in your corner and able

44:19

to feel comfortable enough to say, I get

44:22

where your emotions are coming from, but we

44:24

might need to tone this, this phrase

44:26

down a little bit and pull back over here. So

44:30

they're

44:32

an amazing organization, just

44:35

so full of like passion and empathy that it's

44:37

really moving. Part of the conversation though,

44:40

when you were just speaking about your frustrations,

44:42

it was something that you

44:44

had mentioned before we actually started recording.

44:47

You said that there are spiritual factors

44:49

that people don't understand, that law

44:51

enforcement, they don't understand.

44:53

And it's found that so fascinating and kind

44:57

of bittersweet. Is there a way that you can explain

45:00

this? What are the spiritual factors?

45:03

I was always taught growing up that

45:05

there are

45:06

things in this world that we

45:08

just can't see.

45:10

There's more, you know, there's more

45:12

than I can see. And there's

45:14

things that have happened in my life and in my journey

45:17

with my mom that

45:18

to me are undeniable. There's

45:21

a feeling that you get when something is more

45:24

spiritual or a message

45:28

or has meaning than

45:31

when something is coincidence. And

45:33

often there's other things that validate it like

45:36

before or after that, you know, that

45:38

they sound crazy and people can

45:40

be skeptical. But

45:43

I was not raised that way. I

45:45

was raised to have faith and belief in some of these

45:47

things. And then

45:49

one of the things was, you know,

45:52

when I was really little, my mom and I would, I

45:54

guess, thinking I'm thinking of a number between

45:56

one

45:57

and 10 and, you know, she would we would close.

45:59

our eyes and we would take our turns

46:02

guessing and thinking. And whenever

46:05

I would think of my, you know, guess her number,

46:09

she would, you

46:09

know, is that what you've seen? What did you

46:12

see? What did you hear? And

46:14

so I would, well, if I guessed nine

46:16

and I was wrong, she would ask, well,

46:18

what

46:19

did you see? What did you hear? What was your

46:21

other number? You know, and so often

46:24

it was my next number. You know, it was

46:26

the, I tossed around between a couple of them

46:28

in my head. And so I think that really helped me

46:30

kind of tune in or

46:32

learn how to listen, learn

46:35

how to, how to see or hear those,

46:38

those messages with her.

46:40

After a while we got really good and it would

46:42

be one and 15. Thinking

46:44

of a number between one and 15 red or black.

46:46

And

46:47

we were really good, you know, it was kind of like

46:50

our

46:50

trick, you know, she would, let's

46:52

do it, you know, show them, let's show them we can

46:54

do it. And so

46:56

that's just an example, you know, kind

46:58

of that spiritual connection. Like

47:01

I said, the day I found out about my mom, I

47:03

cried all day. I woke up that morning

47:05

crying. I cried all day.

47:08

It wasn't until I went home to my mom's

47:10

house,

47:11

I went in and it felt like I was just waiting for

47:13

her. Like, like she went to

47:15

the store and I

47:17

got there early

47:18

and she was going to walk in the door in a minute.

47:21

And after a few minutes, I, you know,

47:23

half an hour or so, I started walking

47:26

around the house and I felt like I was snooping. I felt

47:28

like I, I shouldn't be going in her room.

47:30

I shouldn't be, you know, in

47:33

her things. And I went in and

47:35

laid down on her bed and, and

47:37

looked at the bookshelf next to her bed

47:39

and just started crying and

47:41

smelling her, you know, pulling her pillows

47:43

up to my face and smelling her. And

47:45

I

47:46

looked down and her purse was there. And

47:49

I knew, like, I

47:51

just knew my mom didn't leave without her,

47:54

her things, you know. I knew

47:56

she was gone at that point and I knew that the

47:58

day that I had been crying, was goodbye. That

48:01

it was,

48:04

I'm sorry, it was

48:06

regret, it was it was

48:08

goodbye and you know

48:11

it's just that feeling like I just knew, I

48:14

just knew.

48:15

When I was really young,

48:18

really young, we were sitting in the car and we

48:20

were listening to a funeral on the radio

48:22

and it was a big funeral like

48:25

Elvis or Lennon and

48:27

she was talking, we were talking

48:28

about death and I told her I didn't ever want her

48:30

to die and she said, this is the cycle of life,

48:32

sweetie, nobody lives forever. You

48:35

know, we all die, our body is just a shell

48:37

and it's not meant to live forever but the

48:39

part of me that loves you, that will always

48:41

be here and

48:43

you

48:44

know we were talking about this funeral and I said,

48:46

well, you know I'm gonna have a big funeral, I want

48:48

everybody to come and say they love you and and

48:51

she said, that's not what I want and I said, well,

48:53

what, you

48:54

know, what do you want and

48:57

she said, she just wanted to go out into

48:59

the woods and let the beetles and the bugs and the

49:01

coyotes

49:03

feed their babies with her with her body

49:06

and that was the cycle of life and that was traditionally

49:08

what would have happened with our bodies, was

49:10

that it would go back into the earth and the

49:13

trees would, you know, we wouldn't,

49:15

you know, nurture the trees and the animals

49:17

and that was natural

49:19

and it was mortifying

49:21

to, you know, to my little girl brain

49:24

that my mom would,

49:26

you know, you know,

49:28

not an option

49:30

and so she said, fine, you can cremate me and

49:33

I still, you know, like I don't want you to

49:35

die, I don't want you to ever die and she

49:37

said, well, close your eyes and so I closed

49:39

my eyes and

49:40

she said, am I still here? And I said, yes

49:42

and she said, how do you know? I said, because I can

49:44

hear you and she's like, okay,

49:47

close your eyes and so we sat there for a couple of minutes

49:49

and then she said, okay, open your

49:50

eyes and she said, could you

49:52

hear me? And I said, no and she said,

49:55

could you see me? And I said, no

49:57

and she said, how do you know I was still here?

49:59

And I said, I could feel you and

50:02

she was okay.

50:03

When my body's not here, the

50:07

part of me that loves you will always be

50:09

here with you.

50:10

And I still can feel her at times. It's

50:13

a different feeling now. Sometimes it's

50:16

very pride.

50:20

I feel that

50:21

she's proud or she's not

50:24

proud of me.

50:25

Or I feel like

50:28

I'm walking down the sidewalk and I'm not walking

50:30

fast enough. And she's

50:31

behind me. Somebody's

50:33

behind

50:34

me and they're trying to push me up, you know, like

50:35

speed me out of the way. They're trying to

50:38

like hurry up, pick up the pace. And

50:40

I feel like that's her, but I also just really

50:42

feel like she's

50:43

just in the other room and we're working.

50:46

And once in a while I can hear her bang

50:48

around over there or once

50:51

in a while something comes through, but

50:53

for the most part I'm busy and she's busy,

50:56

but we're still

50:57

in the same house. We just

50:59

don't see each other anymore.

51:01

Wow, yeah, that's quite profound. Thank

51:03

you for sharing that.

51:07

Does your spiritual

51:09

connection with your mom help you in

51:12

the grieving process?

51:14

I don't know that I could have got through some of this

51:16

without

51:17

that conversation in the car. I

51:20

don't know why my whole life it was so vivid.

51:23

I thought everybody had conversations like that. Like

51:26

everybody's

51:27

parents taught them about life and

51:29

death

51:30

like that, you know, and I didn't realize

51:32

how much of a gift that was, but

51:34

it's allowed me to find some

51:37

comfort

51:38

in

51:40

the chances of us finding her that

51:43

there's no place she would rather be. She wanted,

51:45

you know, she wanted that. She wanted to be

51:48

out in the woods. She was okay

51:50

without being put in a box

51:52

somewhere, but

51:55

that was okay.

51:56

So that's allowed me, you know, a lot of

51:58

kind

51:59

of some comfort.

51:59

also wondering

52:02

if she knew, you know, if our spirits

52:04

knew what

52:05

we, you know, what

52:07

we signed up for. I've been taught that

52:10

our spirits make these sacred promises to one

52:12

another from the spirit world, you know, that we're star,

52:15

we come from star people, and before

52:17

we come here to our human bodies, our

52:19

spirits choose our path,

52:22

and we make promises to one another. All

52:24

of our spirits have made sacred

52:26

promises to do something,

52:28

teach something, help in some way

52:32

to protect or guide or, you know,

52:35

something that our spirits only know.

52:37

And I wondered, you know,

52:39

I've always wondered when we chose

52:42

this path,

52:43

did we choose this?

52:45

You know, like,

52:46

maybe we chose our purpose, but not

52:49

how we get there. Not

52:51

what has to happen to us to learn how

52:53

to do what our purpose was,

52:56

but that message, I don't know

52:58

that I could do anything that I do or

53:00

find any kind of peace

53:02

or comfort

53:04

in, or purpose,

53:06

you know, without knowing that

53:08

she's okay. She

53:11

would be okay out there in the woods.

53:13

You said that that was the conversation that

53:15

you had with your mom in the car was

53:18

this gift that you thought every

53:20

child had with their parents and having

53:23

a discussion about death, but that's not the case.

53:26

You know, it's a very hard subject

53:29

for parents to breach with

53:31

their children. And I'm thinking about my

53:34

childhood and how like you didn't mention it, like you

53:36

didn't talk about it, anything that was

53:38

anything slightly uncomfortable we don't talk

53:41

about. And it just is

53:43

remarkable to me to hear you recognize

53:45

that, like as a gift. And that

53:48

story was amazing. And I'm

53:50

wondering if all of this, with

53:53

your mom's disappearance and your

53:57

spiritual path and your spiritual journey

53:59

and experiences, This has shaped

54:01

you into the person that you are and

54:03

you communicate all of this so articulately

54:06

and I'm wondering if this

54:08

is something that you accept like this

54:10

happened to my mom it all it all

54:13

sort of Led up to this she Knew

54:16

that she didn't want to be put in a box She knew she

54:18

would you know she was at peace

54:21

with the fact that if my body goes

54:23

into the forest and is you

54:25

know Worked into the whole organic

54:27

system. That's fine That

54:30

that was something she communicated to you and that

54:32

you know Is this all sort of meant

54:34

to be in your head and and or is

54:36

it you know? I mean, I'm just kind of jumbling

54:39

up the question right now But are you

54:41

are you content with this being your path

54:43

my human body didn't choose it? You

54:46

know, I think yeah,

54:47

we don't know I don't think when

54:49

we choose our plans we get to choose the experiences

54:52

that take us to our purpose but

54:55

I think I you

54:57

know, I accept I accept

54:59

that

54:59

you know that we all have a Purpose

55:02

here, you know at one point or another

55:04

those purposes might change my purpose might

55:07

be to help somebody else today

55:10

You know and everything in my life has led me

55:12

to cross the path with that person or

55:15

or them with me But I think

55:17

sometimes when I think about that, I think of the

55:20

sacrifice That

55:22

my mom made you know that to

55:25

to give me these teachings to put

55:27

me in the position To be

55:29

where I am to help other people The

55:31

sacrifices that she made to be in the position

55:34

where she was because

55:35

she didn't have You

55:37

know the trauma

55:38

in her life wasn't You

55:40

know, it wasn't easy. So where do you go from

55:42

here? Carolyn

55:44

I had an elder when I first started talking about

55:46

this I couldn't even say my name without crying

55:50

I would introduce myself. My name is Carolyn

55:52

to four and my mother is Leona LeClaire Kinsey My

55:55

mom was a missing person and I usually

55:57

couldn't get past my mom's name and I would I

55:59

would cry for a few minutes.

56:03

You know, exercising that muscle,

56:05

I guess, you know, to be able to speak. But

56:07

I was talking to an elder and I said, I can't

56:10

do it.

56:10

I can't do it. I can't talk in public.

56:13

I don't know what to say. I can't. I

56:16

can't do it.

56:17

She said, just speak from the heart

56:19

and, you

56:21

know, it's your turn. It's your time.

56:23

And who are you to question the doors

56:25

that creator opens for you? So

56:28

who am I to question the direction that

56:31

I'm guided to? I just try to

56:33

do the best thing that I can and ask,

56:36

you know, in a prayerful way and

56:39

be trying to honor my family,

56:41

honor my community, honor

56:43

my mom to

56:45

do no harm. Just try and

56:48

follow the path that's put in front

56:51

of me in the best way possible.

56:53

Where should somebody

56:56

be directed if they have any information on your mom's

56:59

disappearance?

57:00

I don't have a 1-800 number in front

57:02

of me, but there's the Crime Stoppers have

57:04

an anonymous decline and

57:07

Crime Stoppers has put up

57:08

a $2,500 reward and the PILOT

57:11

Tribe has a $7,500 reward. So

57:13

total there's $10,000 leading to

57:16

the arresting conviction for

57:19

information in my mom's case.

57:20

They could reach out to the Legrand

57:22

Police Department. Yeah,

57:25

any information in her case is appreciated

57:27

and sometimes it's just a little

57:29

bit, you know, people who knew him, people

57:32

learned,

57:33

he bragged about

57:36

what he did to certain people

57:38

and threatened

57:40

certain people, you know, that he would, I'll

57:42

do you like I did Leona. So we

57:44

know that there's probably more out there that,

57:47

you know, maybe she said something that they didn't take

57:50

serious or that

57:51

they thought he was just,

57:53

you know, just talking.

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