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must have at target and target-dot-com

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this is a cbc podcast

0:33

when

0:38

the body of human rights activist karima

0:40

the luge is found off the shores of toronto

0:43

and investigation into her mysterious deaths

0:45

leads all the way back to pakistan the

0:47

country she had recently flat in

0:50

the brand new six part series the kill

0:52

list host mary link explores

0:55

the rampant abductions and killings of

0:57

dissidents in pakistan the dangers

0:59

that followed those who fleet of the west and

1:02

a terrifying intelligence agency with

1:04

tentacles around the globe this

1:06

is a story of brave inspirational

1:08

people on a tireless quest

1:10

for justice who will speak truth to

1:12

power at all costs people

1:15

whose hope your thumb in this

1:17

story of discovery one that people

1:19

have not heard the series six to

1:21

answer how did karima die

1:24

and with pakistan really carry out

1:26

an assassination far beyond it's borders

1:28

now here's the first episode of

1:31

the kill list

1:35

the phone

1:35

the contains difficult subject matter

1:38

including references to suicide and

1:40

torture

1:41

these take care

1:55

i'm going to tell you a story that a powerful

1:57

state doesn't want you to know about

1:59

crisis they've tried to keep hidden about

2:03

tens of thousands who have disappeared

2:06

and others who have escaped only

2:08

to have the threats follow them around

2:10

them world the

2:13

story too dangerous to tell that

2:15

for some is meant and enough and

2:18

kill list

2:20

when some who fled to the west ended up

2:22

dead many began to question is

2:24

nowhere safe

2:26

could they have been assassinated

2:34

let's begin on an autumn day in

2:36

twenty in

2:38

never

2:47

small group of protesters has gathered

2:49

in downtown toronto commanding

2:51

their attention as a young woman named

2:53

colima abundance when

3:00

she's wearing a beautifully imported solve

3:02

rep loosely around her head and shoulders

3:05

head reading from reading speech in her hands

3:21

not everyone

3:25

kind of a new system

3:28

there's a good chance you've never even heard

3:30

of cream us homeland of baluchi stance

3:32

a province in west from pakistan or

3:35

the human rights abuses against her people's

3:37

the pollutes

3:38

karima is trying to change

3:57

the small five foot three better

3:59

this is one of undeniable strength

4:16

may i remind you that again

4:22

yeah

4:28

pakistan the threat of assassination

4:31

hung heavy over cream his head surrounded

4:33

by the abductions and killings a family

4:35

members and fellow activists

4:37

karima knew she could be next

4:40

i find that i didn't have any thirty

4:46

today she is standing in the city

4:48

where she fled for her life and despite

4:50

constant threats over the years morning

4:52

her to stop speaking note she's

4:55

refused

4:56

seemingly impossible to silence

4:59

until she was

5:05

the long time critic of pakistan's

5:07

thirty seven year old karima below

5:09

it's devoted her life to speaking

5:12

for the people of balloon justin she

5:14

was reported missing on sunday

5:16

monday i suddenly got a call from

5:18

a a close friend was also very

5:20

close friend of karima what's

5:23

happening with karima where is she i

5:25

said what are you saying have

5:28

you watch the news i said no

5:31

he went missing and nobody knows where she is

5:35

she was found dead in toronto on

5:37

monday she's been living in exile

5:39

in canada for several years

5:41

it was really

5:43

talking in a country like

5:45

canada we came here for safety i

5:47

cannot explain it we are in charge

5:50

as friends and family more

5:52

the dad is making international headlines

5:55

prominent been on saturday have been found

5:57

dead veloce as soon as sense

6:00

documentary my one or two was founded

6:03

under mysterious circumstances in toronto

6:05

she has been vocal about pakistan army

6:08

and government atrocities in balochistan

6:10

and while the press was reporting her

6:12

age is thirty seven she was

6:14

actually only thirty four according

6:17

to a family member

6:20

creamer was revered by her people for

6:22

her defined activism against the pakistani

6:25

authorities despite the mortal danger

6:27

if put her in and twenty

6:29

sixteen female was named and the b b c's

6:31

annual list of the world's hundred most inspirational

6:35

and influential women but i first

6:37

heard of cream overlooks the day after she went

6:39

missing that a her body was pulled

6:41

from the frigid waters of lake ontario of

6:44

the shores of toronto

6:51

they told us it owned adding one

6:53

pm

6:55

the near my fraud is karim as older brother

6:57

he remembers that day when the police told

6:59

them they found her sister's body

7:01

it was december twenty first twenty

7:04

twenty

7:05

they found her body it in own cylinder

7:07

something a dent in that moment

7:09

they say they find her body in

7:12

the water

7:13

though that that was

7:15

a to be told us that was it and

7:17

then what happened

7:18

they told us that we even i'll contact

7:21

you will you can see the body

7:23

like hell they said that

7:25

is the still considered an evidence he

7:27

cannot show you the body because often

7:29

a total biggies is on and

7:31

the death we still don't know how and what

7:33

happened and

7:35

some close to karima worried they knew

7:37

what might have happened the pakistan has

7:39

found a way to assassinate her in toronto

7:45

listen a day later samir says

7:47

the police had more information for the family

7:50

after , dollars they start calling

7:52

us and they start talking with

7:54

us and trying to convince us that does

7:57

nothing to look into

7:59

it's just the keys or philip autumn or

8:03

it least there is no other

8:05

party involved were no of affordably

8:09

read all the police simply that we

8:12

cannot agree with this because

8:14

too early

8:16

the sixty don't you know what how you come to

8:18

that conclusion this and all but you

8:20

know this is this is really nothing

8:22

we think this that's okay how

8:24

, know even within sixteen

8:27

hours you cannot even employers you investigative

8:29

tool

8:31

the near also argue to the police agreement

8:33

with a high profile dissidents was led

8:35

to canada for her life and that

8:37

she had continue to receive threats and exile

8:40

amir express to the police is concerned that creamer

8:43

could have been murdered the he says please

8:45

told them their investigation found no

8:47

evidence of foul play

8:51

they paid know you know he looks

8:53

like we are sure about it and then

8:56

once they were convinced that we're not going

8:58

to agree with them as a went

9:00

out with a tweet

9:02

there's were please tweeted the circumstances

9:05

have been investigated and officers have

9:07

determined this to be a non criminal death and

9:09

know cel plays suspected we

9:11

have updated the family

9:15

the death certificate listen drowning as

9:17

the cause of death and ruled a suicide

9:20

but or film it tells me they've never fully understood

9:22

how or why authorities reached this

9:24

conclusion

9:26

the road to trying to please asking how they

9:28

concluded cream his death was a suicide

9:31

in , response to as a police spokesman

9:33

wrote that after an autopsy in

9:35

the corner determine the death was quoted not

9:37

suspicious and our investigation supported

9:40

that conclusion unquote but

9:42

they added if further information if further

9:45

came to light suggesting otherwise

9:47

they would review it

9:55

did i believe strongly

9:58

fish should end with

9:59

the gate properly lol

10:02

not even suggesting that there was something

10:04

wrong happened gifts but

10:07

to show some concern

10:10

show some respect

10:12

, okay this person have a history

10:14

of persecution there

10:16

might be something there

10:19

might be something

10:22

others are more direct i

10:25

, think it was one of the finest

10:27

moments for the trailblazers i was

10:29

given to or front line officer

10:32

who looked at the immediate evidence

10:34

before him or her and

10:37

came to the wrong conclusion

10:39

chris alexander was kansas

10:41

mr of immigration when cream a sled

10:43

pakistan with the help of a teen embassy

10:46

mean when assassinations take

10:49

place the perpetrators often

10:51

go to great lengths to make

10:54

fair work look like something

10:56

else to look like a suicide to

10:58

look like an accident or to look like

11:01

some other form of random violence

11:04

cream his death in the country where she had

11:06

sought refuge sentenced him

11:09

editor had gone to great lengths to give her our

11:11

production we had failed

11:13

to protector so i was shocked

11:16

heartbroken do things to commit suicide

11:19

absolutely not i think she was killed

11:31

my name is mary lake and

11:34

this is the kill list

11:36

episode one death of

11:38

an icon

11:50

so a few nights should i start the

11:53

yes start years ago young we're

11:55

recording i know samir

11:58

is talking to me from

11:59

home and north toronto where he lives

12:02

with his wife and two kids karima

12:05

had lived there as well it's been

12:07

about four months since his sister's

12:09

death conversations about karima

12:12

remains difficult for him

12:19

when a young daughter or son asked for their beloved

12:21

aren't he changes the subject these

12:23

days he says he only talks book cream to me

12:29

over the months samir and i've built a relationship

12:31

to phone and video calls we've

12:33

been separated by pandemic and close

12:35

to two thousand kilometers him in

12:37

toronto me on the east coast of

12:39

canada

12:43

samir to go back to the beginning

12:47

me and cari uma we're both born in

12:49

uae coming , was born

12:51

in the mid nineteen eighties in a you a

12:53

ease the united arab emirates

12:57

my father was father migrant worker

12:59

and doing like so many

13:01

bottles somebody had yet to see we don't have

13:03

any prospect back for

13:08

he was my best friend always

13:11

the report as kids we fought a lot

13:13

in only fought but she

13:15

was always my best friends she understood

13:17

what i think like if were

13:19

joking with love making fun of

13:21

someone or see , this

13:24

this quality to you

13:26

know empress people people

13:29

mad at him and our society

13:31

girls are not in of they were

13:34

not treated as equals but

13:36

equals you know to

13:39

treat money

13:46

my earliest memory as when we

13:48

were living in as mom it's a

13:50

state and you we had said

13:52

small state we were living dmv home

13:55

and then one day we

13:57

just got out of the house without

13:59

doing any

13:59

me and charisma we saw the ramble

14:03

anyway it then maybe once

14:05

a year or twice a year sometime using you don't

14:07

get that it's really tell dump trucks

14:10

so to see a rainbow and you eat three be

14:12

you know something you don't see every day

14:15

and , were kids we just

14:17

rambling city both of us we just

14:20

went on and on on and on and eventually

14:23

eventually were bought by this sense

14:28

on the other side of the fence a beach

14:31

and open ocean into a serene

14:33

both fell samir says if

14:35

not for the sense the dotes they

14:37

would have ever stopped

14:39

if there was no fence maybe

14:41

we both feel will keep on chasing

14:44

the rainbow and be me i saw but

14:46

that is obvious man would with customer

14:48

she was up on with edwin service

14:58

the mirror things he was nine and cream

15:00

a seven and the family moved back to

15:02

blow to stone

15:03

it wasn't a different one it's was totally

15:05

different world

15:07

the landscape

15:08

the rugged mountains plato's

15:10

and deserts little vegetation

15:13

the ordering afghanistan and iran to the

15:15

west and arabian sea to

15:17

the so the largest pakistan's

15:19

four provinces making up nearly half of

15:21

the countries that it's sparsely populated

15:25

please unknown to the world the

15:27

majority their belong to to ethnic groups

15:29

within half our baluchi the next largest

15:32

the pashtuns posts have lived

15:34

there for centuries long before pakistan

15:36

was created in nineteen forty seven

15:39

like you if you're living in been fun

15:47

not represented in any will

15:49

present in a new it is not malicious

15:51

town sets are vast wealth

15:54

of gas and minerals and is considered

15:56

the richest of all the provinces

15:58

in terms of resources

15:59

if a huge economic driver

16:02

for the pakistani economy but

16:04

the people of blue to stand for

16:06

the poorest not because

16:09

thought phone don't have resources or the provinces

16:11

like little sunday don't have the resources to

16:14

have been teaching schoolers even drinking

16:16

water

16:18

they are pumping this will give

16:21

money to stop since the fifty

16:23

eight i believe for fifty cents fifties

16:26

built bumping into this all about that

16:28

are that and we even don't have it

16:30

in our homes

16:32

even in a few cities

16:34

the loot stan like for but

16:36

basic amenities found elsewhere

16:38

in pakistan's are often scarce

16:42

now i'm talking with you in

16:45

two hundred fifty degree fifty

16:47

one fifty two

16:48

then

16:50

the we don't have electricity back there

16:52

that's because the electricity is constantly

16:55

been shut down

16:57

the in their blisters on get body

16:59

because of the heat

17:01

the loot a son has the highest reporter

17:03

rate and all of pakistan of women

17:06

dying from complications related to

17:08

pregnancy and childbirth

17:10

there's no helped get is no security

17:12

does no opportunity for us

17:14

to you know less effect

17:16

three or something else this

17:18

is bad but as the sword blessings was your

17:20

three

17:23

at least in the early days they were free

17:26

i'm not not not any more now they

17:28

have a huge amount of military

17:30

presence but that time it was a different

17:33

time

17:34

that time was the early nineteen nineties

17:36

and cream and samir left the u a e

17:39

and began a new life in a place

17:41

completely foreign to them

17:44

it just

17:45

you and the mountains and

17:47

our grandfathers the

17:50

, and you're going

17:52

up going a huge family cause i'm sisters

17:55

aunts uncles

17:57

the with their families ancestral home of dump

17:59

hi in the mountains a southern baluchistan

18:03

there was nothing basically

18:05

know nothing that can connect

18:07

both with a more drunk blood we

18:10

were poor heard of everybody

18:12

was worth so we did we didn't know we have

18:14

worked for because everybody was foot but

18:16

still you feel the freedom

18:19

is lost land land

18:21

can go everywhere you want you can haunt

18:24

you can go for fishing

18:26

and and everybody knows you everybody

18:28

this figure v but he knows your

18:30

least two or three generations so

18:33

it was

18:39

if something distinguish good he much

18:41

use away it or herself as a human being

18:44

you know to like compromise

18:47

for anything she would have to have this

18:49

advanced and dignity sci fi

18:51

like you are doing something against our

18:53

does not just she will always stood

18:56

up that was hot flushes you never compromise

19:01

especially when demanding that women

19:03

have a voice

19:05

you might see unawares

19:07

will tell him something of course

19:09

you are living in a society where people with tall

19:12

will judge you will then i don't be

19:14

consequences of into the

19:16

consequences but

19:18

she will never stop she will keep

19:20

on it'll suit keep on crossing

19:22

that line

19:24

trump there was a high school for

19:26

boys only

19:27

the few teachers volunteer to teach girls

19:30

on their off hours karima

19:32

jumped at the chance she was a

19:34

quick study in bright she

19:36

was also sold energy and assess

19:38

because see and few of my

19:40

other cousin they have disagreed eyes

19:42

fair the heritage that and seen

19:45

from a one off hours maybe glenmore

19:48

so she stood out result of

19:50

you know them and physically also due to

19:52

her green eyes

19:54

those extraordinary green eyes would

19:56

one day become famous and blue to sons

19:59

the beauty the was not her defining feature

20:02

what the her personality

20:05

i don't know how you explain

20:07

it you cannot explain get as much but

20:10

they mom had get as much

20:19

the korean i was growing up the quiet peaceful

20:21

baluchistan the for childhood was disappearing

20:24

dilutes have always had a tense relationship

20:26

with the pakistani government and that's meant

20:29

continuous uprisings against pakistan

20:31

since a country's formations the blue

20:33

to have long pushed for greater autonomy and

20:35

benefits from their vast natural resources

20:38

but smear says there's a deeper reason for his

20:40

pupils rebellion against the state

20:43

the main point is the dignity of the people

20:46

people are fighting for their weight is human dignity

20:49

it's not that we expect fox and will

20:51

give us our the and i can all make all fortune

20:54

duel did not want to happen because it never

20:56

happened never oh daily

20:58

resources will never be spent on

21:00

us or something like that but

21:02

our basic basic human dignity

21:05

is being violated everything

21:11

auriemma was coming of age during blue to son's

21:14

death and latest insurgency one

21:16

that continues to this day

21:21

i would say that she is

21:23

the child of that below

21:26

, conflict with the

21:28

pakistani state and

21:30

the brutality that state has shown

21:32

so far towards the balloon people from the last

21:35

two decades

21:36

that's our job would is a blues activist

21:39

he lives in toronto he says

21:41

to understand cream us is to understand

21:43

what's been happening and blue to stand in recent

21:45

years

21:47

if he was born like ten years

21:50

before she would not have been karima

21:52

that we know

21:54

the early two thousand the government's crackdown

21:56

against the arms separatist movement was growing

21:59

even more brutal

21:59

and bloody the military is no longer

22:02

only targeting small groups of fighters

22:04

tucked away in the mountains they also

22:06

and after human rights activists academics

22:09

and ordinary citizens including

22:11

people close to karima

22:13

the time and the events that happen

22:16

in a lifetime that completely surrounded

22:18

her those are the things

22:20

that finally made her

22:22

stand up things that inspired

22:25

or love and she she was completely

22:27

driven by that thing

22:33

the familiar scene and below to stance

22:36

large groups of bullets often

22:38

women holding outdoor visuals

22:40

sometimes aside a press club is for

22:43

government buildings searching

22:45

photos other missing loved ones abducted

22:47

by the military some missing

22:50

for more than a decade

22:56

the people abducted by the military

22:59

in pakistan or known as the disappeared

23:02

grabbed it military checkpoints are from

23:04

raids on their homes or simply well

23:06

city was friends at friends at it's

23:08

a some antarctic and blue justin

23:13

the disappeared or hidden away in

23:15

military cells were their tortured

23:18

sometimes for years and

23:20

then released as shuttered human beings

23:22

others are murdered their bodies

23:25

with visible signs of mutilations

23:27

tossed and random places for their families

23:29

to find the practice is commonly

23:32

known as a killer dump

23:34

the main purpose is to silence

23:36

any criticism of government or

23:38

it's military

23:43

no no

23:46

school and dump operation

23:49

the news column are a renowned

23:51

human rights lawyer who is the secretary

23:53

general of amnesty international

23:57

very little

23:59

is

24:07

and live your whole chimp cool

24:09

in conjunction

24:11

with local police

24:14

the frontier corps is a paramilitary

24:16

force of the pakistani army stations

24:19

in baluchistan

24:21

on more common practice for

24:24

, rights defenders activists

24:27

to see them to be these appear

24:29

to be extremely

24:34

with little attention from the outside

24:36

world she says thousands of

24:38

balloons and pashtuns have been illegally

24:40

abducted and ballou to stand by the pakistani

24:43

state

24:44

organ donation

24:46

i receive homie illinois commissioner

24:56

ashton the dot com he

24:58

meeting on

25:10

no

25:12

return of say loud enough

25:15

that there is a real

25:17

the murder

25:19

of their and their and that need

25:21

blue ornaments

25:25

when families beg for their relatives release

25:28

or even news of their whereabouts the

25:30

military will deny even hearing

25:32

of the person

25:34

i'm quite proud

25:36

, the world's foremost by omission because

25:39

sunday hang on to

25:42

solve all the i'm really nothing

25:44

to go away our

25:52

homeless families

25:54

there are all suffering each

25:56

family has lost someone

25:59

from the family

25:59

the

26:00

the effort jar would far from

26:03

a distant relative if you go

26:05

into a town or a small village

26:07

where that are like hundred homes for

26:09

example home

26:12

each family has been scarred karima

26:14

also suffered she felt all

26:17

that trauma she was there every

26:19

day was a life of fear in

26:21

williston if you're living today's

26:24

you don't know what happens next day if you leave

26:26

home you're going to school

26:28

even

26:29

the parents are not sure you will be returning

26:32

that's the situation over there that's a reality

26:35

and i don't know how they cope with

26:37

that but that's a society

26:39

that has been going on in this from a for the last

26:42

twenty years continuously since two thousand

26:44

and two

26:48

two thousand and four samir says

26:50

a cousin of there's gorham fillet went

26:52

missing he was driving a truck for the produce

26:55

when you start at a checkpoint and taken

26:57

by the frontier course he was non

26:59

activist have been a relative of cream as

27:01

politically active family made him

27:03

a target so

27:06

many close to karim a had already gone

27:08

missing are being killed but gore hims

27:10

abduction affected karim a profoundly

27:12

she was only in her teens when she started

27:15

attending the protests for the disappeared

27:17

holding up a picture of gore him demanding

27:19

he be released

27:22

after four years he finally was

27:24

and although he had survived he was traumatized

27:27

that samir says a bigger tragedy aware

27:30

that their family when another cousin and bucks

27:32

she was killed by a death squads

27:34

the death squads or private malicious sometimes

27:37

islamic extremists are petty criminals

27:40

often armed by the military to quash

27:42

the insurgency and ballou to stolen

27:46

my like many other young people

27:48

who became active in politics

27:51

after two thousand two

27:53

three two thousand four they

27:56

became active under a

27:58

very brutal military the operation

28:01

that was being run by the state

28:03

itself directly from sour bad

28:06

two thousand and six free my joined

28:08

a faction of the blues students organizations

28:12

to be a so as odd as

28:14

odd meanings free this

28:16

nonviolent dude and seeking

28:19

better living conditions for their people they

28:21

also want independence and creamer

28:23

stop using her family's last name

28:26

of mcroberts replacing it with

28:28

pollutes and this is a common practice

28:30

amongst her people to show solidarity

28:32

with the cause

28:34

creamer traveled through polluters done

28:36

advocating for soon rights and girls'

28:39

education among other things

28:41

and although her work for the b s opener

28:43

at great risk creamer was

28:45

unrelenting and she was emerging

28:48

as a natural leader a rarity

28:50

for young woman in a highly patriarchal

28:53

tribal societies

28:58

you are long as they're on the siege although

29:05

her face was covered but everyone

29:07

listening to a voice and she spoke

29:09

very boldly

29:16

though she became well known as a

29:18

speaker and she had this family

29:20

background because of which she

29:22

our family was already usually

29:26

the time targeted the

29:28

knew exactly that whatever she was doing

29:31

the and they will come to get her or

29:33

she can be target killed that

29:35

on the stage but she kept on

29:38

going forward and she showed

29:40

the guts and the courage that

29:42

a woman or girl there's

29:44

no less i can completely

29:46

pinpoint and say that there were times

29:49

when they were situations of life

29:51

and the loss of your life

29:54

and she stood there

29:55

bravely

29:56

this is what inspired everyone around

29:59

her the that's how she rose the ranks

30:01

of be a

30:09

if you were looking for someone to be

30:11

the poster child for the

30:14

fight against injustice and but it some

30:16

other think you could come across a better candidate

30:19

two thousand seven villain marks

30:22

travel to ballou to stance the british

30:24

dutch journalist was curious about what

30:26

was stealing the latest and certain seats

30:28

and everywhere a villain traveled to kept

30:30

hearing the name cream up bullets everyone

30:33

was saying you have to speak to karima

30:38

he had no fancy tribal

30:41

background he was

30:43

someone that had a sense least

30:46

focused her studies in her academic

30:48

energy on this cause

30:50

and from a very young age she felt the personal

30:52

consequences of

30:53

then you know a bit like some i might milan

30:56

a you society east see from

30:58

a young age they become

31:00

invested in an effort like this

31:02

script a timber

31:03

the you understand why they become

31:06

this rallying cry for

31:08

the members of a broader movement and

31:10

it wasn't a surprise to me having met her

31:12

that she became this essentially icon

31:15

this young icon of bleach right she

31:17

was at the time already a very prominent

31:20

young voice in this organization

31:23

and frankly based on all the conversations

31:25

and meetings i have over several weeks without a young

31:28

woman i met involved in efforts

31:30

to try to highlight human rights abuses

31:33

enforced disappearance extra judicial killings

31:36

i'm pretty young people like curry mri met

31:38

the consequences as having been no

31:40

to speak critically of the pakistani

31:43

military central authority the even local

31:45

authorities though consequence could be no

31:47

serious

31:49

him says his meeting with karima had

31:52

a cloak and dagger feel to it

31:54

the was taken by cards the town of manned

31:56

in southern blue to stand down one

31:59

dusty rhodes

31:59

never has no mud brick homes

32:02

and a scattering of palm trees

32:05

and we were very cautious

32:07

about how we made it to that

32:09

location to , that

32:11

we weren't being followed as we had been previously

32:15

recently stopped in front of a simple white

32:18

loss building

32:19

when i walked into the room where

32:21

i was gonna film the interview with her

32:24

like many homes in

32:26

that region of the latest on radical

32:30

he outside a normally

32:33

this one doorway and doorway couple a very small

32:35

windows small windows do away with the with i used

32:37

for my when i called a key lights to kind

32:39

of like the face of the interviewee the

32:43

like falling on her face when i set up for

32:45

the interview she just had this incredible

32:48

green eyes and

32:50

is very open expressive

32:52

face

32:54

then

32:55

he didn't need to raise his voice when she

32:57

when she talked about these incredibly difficult

33:00

topic she talked to the very high tempo

33:03

you could tell she wasn't someone who was stumbling

33:05

over her words

33:07

and

33:09

she would look at me to see tingly during

33:11

this interview waiting for my friend

33:13

to translate what she said and

33:16

seemingly willing for me to kind of

33:18

understand and empathize with what

33:20

she was saying and we

33:23

threw that word charisma around a

33:25

huge amount with people and it's very

33:27

difficult to articulate what exactly it

33:29

means in a specific context

33:32

for for me see just drew me

33:34

into her experiences and

33:37

experiences worldview very

33:39

very quickly and , remember

33:41

leaving leaving home where we'd where

33:44

just with this very strong impression very

33:46

had sixty her eyes

33:49

and her energy that that has stayed

33:52

with me for a long time since

34:10

in two thousand nine life became

34:12

even more dangerous for karima she

34:14

was rising to the ranks of the be as i

34:17

am going to tell you a story that a powerful

34:19

state doesn't want you to know about

34:21

tens of thousands who have disappeared

34:24

once they get into the hands of the

34:26

military and be taught and brutally it's

34:28

a story so dangerous to tell that

34:30

person it's meant ending up in

34:33

a kill list

34:34

everything is political actor

34:36

and assess the past security but she wasn't

34:38

often

34:38

little cocoon list

34:41

six parents investigative podcast

34:43

available now get early access

34:45

to episodes a cbc dot da

34:47

slash listen or by subscribing

34:50

to the cbc true crime premium channels

34:52

on apple podcasts so

34:55

in student leaders kept disappearing

34:57

around that time the uk guardian newspaper

35:00

reported that one third of the victims

35:02

of the kill and dump policies were members

35:05

of karim as organization two

35:07

thousand and thirteen pakistan's national

35:10

counterterrorism authority band at

35:12

the facts and karima belong to the

35:14

be a so sad

35:17

in an interview with other voices

35:20

when karima was still on bluestones

35:22

she talks about these threats

35:24

and i quote for us

35:26

peaceful struggle as been turned into a lethal

35:29

poison during the previous three

35:31

years many of our members have

35:33

been brutally killed in two thousand

35:35

and nine the vice chairman of our

35:37

organization secure majeed

35:40

was kidnapped by the secret services

35:42

while he's attending a crowd of procession

35:45

he is still missing

35:46

the news has been tightened around

35:48

our necks

35:51

after secure matutes abduction creamer

35:53

became his replacement five

35:56

years later and march twenty four teams

35:58

another beer so leader

35:59

the abducted and quit us the capital

36:02

city of blue to stand this time

36:04

it was a top person the chairman's i

36:06

had pollutes kidnapped in front

36:08

of crima here she is remembering

36:10

that day and instagram video she

36:12

posted and twenty twenty

36:48

the one a very secret meeting so

36:50

only the central leaders what that

36:52

after the meeting the leaders left and scatters

36:54

in small groups cream i was with saw

36:56

head and a couple others suddenly

36:59

dozens and military vehicles and unmarked

37:01

cars can speeding and from all directions

37:04

and men and military uniforms and civilian

37:06

clothes jumped out

37:08

they were not only looking for and they were looking for

37:10

her also

37:11

the be a so members started to run away that

37:14

the authorities were able to grab saw head however

37:16

they didn't know what the time who he was

37:19

nor did they realized karim us was

37:21

raped by his side her face concealed

37:23

by a headscarf not for religious

37:26

reasons but for her safety

37:28

he had never shown her face in

37:30

public our every time she went

37:32

to see some meetings or something even

37:34

when she had to you know like make

37:37

speeches on the stage her

37:39

face was completely tell it so nobody

37:41

had seen her face so that was one thing

37:43

which was that was protecting her she's

37:46

still even at that time siege of

37:48

the risks the soldiers were dragging

37:50

saw had awaits karima in karima few

37:52

others pretended to be family members karima

37:55

was shooting where are you taking our relatives

37:57

he's in

37:59

he was fighting with the soldiers

38:02

to get him release because he knew that if

38:04

they take by the way that the last

38:06

some anyone with see him

38:12

here is karima again

38:14

and from then until

38:16

now

38:17

no their most

38:19

about the luge and

38:22

been done so he is still

38:24

alive or not

38:30

he

38:32

is missing

38:37

after his arrest she

38:39

was the white shirts person so automatically

38:41

she became the acting chairperson then

38:44

finally it came to came point that

38:46

she started becoming the next target

38:50

the state because they knew that she

38:52

would be the next share person she would be

38:54

elected

38:55

and he was formerly elected and twenty

38:57

six teams becoming the first female

39:00

leader in the history of the organization

39:03

you know what i can tell you something when

39:06

she began the chairperson the

39:08

bs or gave her a title

39:10

the call luma my

39:12

is a local word in bellucci

39:15

and probably language which simply

39:17

means mother the became

39:19

so popular luma karima

39:21

means mother carina they said that

39:24

we have a motherland we have a mother

39:26

karima so that's how people

39:29

her police friends who knew

39:31

her that's how much they were

39:33

emotionally attached to her

39:40

after becoming the chairperson situation

39:42

and by the sun for her was completely

39:45

like the state was trying to hunt

39:47

down she had already been sent

39:49

many messages of threatening messages

39:52

that messages

39:53

the not just threats there were serious

39:56

attempts on her life seems home

39:58

and some was sought out and came

40:00

under several mortar attacks

40:03

yeah warm waters landing in our home

40:05

and , bullet landing in our whole

40:08

house was shattered with the bullets

40:10

fired by dave

40:12

the f see the frontier corps samir

40:15

recalls attack that nearly killed

40:17

another sister

40:19

in there was a mortar landed just seconds

40:22

after my twin sister lived

40:24

a sport if they stay here

40:26

for two minutes of dream at my twin sister

40:28

might be maimed or killed by

40:31

that mordor

40:32

lot pure luck than enough left

40:34

that sport inaudible

40:36

the family survive these bombings but

40:38

astray mordor meant for them killed a neighbor

40:41

yeah a million seawater

40:44

ahead to house next door not

40:46

only hit but to kill a teenager go

40:49

neighbor's daughter a , girl

40:51

died in the the thing is if

40:53

my sister die or like

40:55

my neighbors don't die the problem

40:58

is there is no know

41:00

where you can hold accountable box

41:02

funny military

41:08

the new be no microphone close your

41:10

mouth

41:12

i don't i

41:15

use some great now you some great

41:17

now

41:17

okay

41:19

the guns my fab is creamers younger sister

41:22

she still listen pakistan

41:24

how me a bit about your sister karima

41:27

we're five sister in one bread

41:29

those she is the younger than some we

41:31

as and we

41:34

live for sister oh we

41:36

are all younger than i see

41:38

my mother display of the us

41:40

has done a really close to it

41:44

the guns no longer lives and blue to stone she

41:46

moves with the remaining family members to karachi

41:49

pakistan's largest city because

41:51

it's no longer safe to live in their home and allude

41:53

to stone

41:55

me and my my dad and sisters

41:58

are living great career

41:59

that he in our own country we

42:02

climb with a kennel our windows

42:04

your own out

42:06

the guns remembers the threatening phone calls

42:08

cream it was received when she was still in baluchistan

42:12

calls from the i as i thought

42:14

the sun's feared intelligence agency

42:16

threatening to kill crima in a way that no

42:18

one would know what has happened to her

42:22

the method when did call me and played

42:24

me they always say to me

42:27

we will kill you like this

42:29

no one even know how

42:31

we remove you from the place

42:33

the always talk like this

42:35

morgan says the i as i would also follow

42:38

creamer outside the house

42:40

the time i'm with high

42:42

when they break with

42:48

the thing maybe we

42:49

we played by then she

42:51

went to stop the why to do said if

42:54

you stop the one on the other

42:56

people stop was

42:59

creamer wouldn't stop her activism and

43:02

they i as i began reading their house

43:04

on a more frequent basis megan's

43:06

remembers her and another sister think

43:08

guns put their heads

43:10

they put the gun and all for aid

43:13

and they said if

43:15

take only one so i to say

43:17

kids for us to kill you people

43:22

the isi eventually left as creamer

43:24

was or target but she captivating

43:27

them and i as i kept sending agents

43:29

bursting through the doors into a house full

43:32

of cream as relatives

43:34

every time when the raid a dollar

43:36

home their side weirdest cari

43:38

uma good the on woman colored

43:40

your face and he said no she has

43:42

not here

43:43

the soldiers demanded the women show their eyes

43:46

they were looking for cream as distinctive green

43:48

eyes

43:49

the women wouldn't budge the

43:51

guns says smiling

43:54

woman fag know if not allow

43:56

it they'd a domain he

43:58

didn't i

44:05

crema would go from safe host to safe hosts

44:07

only rarely daring to go home to see

44:09

her family

44:11

he knew that once she was caught that would

44:13

be the end of her life

44:14

that are darwin

44:16

the thing over there and but some

44:19

everyone all the young people who

44:22

, active lead engaged in

44:24

this struggle they

44:26

, well aware that once

44:29

they get into the hands of the the

44:31

military once they're the

44:33

interstate custody they

44:36

, taken to torture or they'll be tortured

44:38

brutally and they will never see

44:41

the day of light again they will ever see their

44:43

family again they will end up

44:45

in some fields as

44:47

as courses

44:49

it was growing fear creamer would become one

44:51

of those corpses the government of pakistan

44:54

had already charge creamer was sedition

44:56

which essentially means to incite people to

44:58

rebel against the state

45:01

there was always a chance a risk that

45:03

she would get arrested that she was reading

45:05

all the show other than everything scarves

45:08

that's a favor self then finally

45:10

it came to a point that she started

45:12

becoming the next target the

45:15

state because they knew that she would be

45:17

the next jefferson she would be elected

45:20

though in two thousand and fifteen when she became

45:22

officially elected as the chairperson

45:24

of be assault the organization had already

45:27

decided that she should leave the country

45:34

that lead in pakistan wouldn't be easy

45:37

and twenty fifteen chris alexander

45:39

was kansas master of immigration

45:42

and he became convinced that cream his life

45:44

was in danger and the she deserved asylum

45:47

how difficult to begin with was a to get her

45:49

own because they are had we had tax on her

45:52

home still had been threats against her

45:54

life how difficult was it to get her owes

45:57

extremely difficult this difficult this that

45:59

the government

45:59

then would not have wanted to happen it's

46:02

embarrassing for them and so

46:04

our mission are high commission and i immigration

46:06

program had to go about this discreetly

46:09

mad the move fast they had

46:11

to arrange logistics

46:13

and not just obviously in islamabad by

46:16

involving these distant communities

46:18

and polluters done quite a long way

46:20

away from the capital so he was the

46:23

i think our team did extremely well but

46:25

it was tough work and it was receiver

46:27

for all of those involved

46:32

creamer arrived in canada on november twenty

46:34

seventh twenty sixteen and continued

46:36

to speak out

46:37

matthew i say sense as life to

46:39

being so you're notice the appalling human

46:41

rights violations including

46:44

, for the un un

46:47

the process thousands of hello social political

46:49

activist and and it intellectuals

46:51

have been extrajudicial he killed stability

46:53

is betting them off softly and human porter

46:56

have been done to it in just related

46:58

areas them in

47:02

wait until she disappeared

47:05

i do know that cream i was

47:07

under threat

47:08

their analysis is a pakistani term

47:10

was to listen canada and was a close

47:12

friend of creamers

47:14

in fact many of my meetings with

47:16

her in the recent months before

47:18

her death she had been talking

47:21

about being followed you know

47:23

getting thread

47:24

putting one just before she went missing

47:27

samir share death threat with me

47:29

it was a direct message through twitter with a warning

47:32

quote i will get creamer

47:34

a christmas present she will never forget

47:37

the mayor says it was sent about two weeks

47:39

before her death he tells me he thinks

47:41

that was from a fake account adding in

47:43

his experience the pakistani military

47:45

has a habit of sending messages this way

47:48

the counted since been suspended a twitter

47:50

for violating it's rules

47:55

the last time karen saw three months

47:57

with two months before her death

47:59

in october of and we were walking

48:02

downtown and toronto and we had

48:04

this long walk in which she was

48:06

discussing how some time

48:08

she was afraid that the thread could

48:11

become real and then we would both

48:13

laugh and say well

48:15

you know she's in canada and she's live

48:17

and this could never happen in the country

48:19

like canada

48:26

the middle news was last seen alive on

48:28

the afternoon of december twentieth twenty

48:30

twenty she was boarding a ferry

48:33

to visit one of our favorite places and toronto

48:35

the island scattered on the edge of the city's

48:38

harbor

48:41

it was a next morning that please stand karima

48:43

in the water

48:47

my life a struggle in

48:49

baluchistan and even her death

48:52

i would say is so typical

48:54

so symbolic of what's happening

48:56

with the bellucci the youth specially

48:59

like for example if i just look

49:01

at her the scenario

49:03

for does not only it's sad

49:05

but it's it's represents well as a son

49:07

in a way for us she gets disappeared

49:10

she goes missing or a day

49:13

and then next day the body is found

49:15

her dead body floating in the waters

49:18

and only difference with that compared

49:20

to what has done is that most of the bodies

49:23

found of for the young people of what age

49:26

are mostly bullet riddled

49:28

torture marks very obvious very clear

49:32

the where here

49:34

it was a body that has

49:36

left many questions

49:40

the answers

49:43

finding those answers won't be easy

49:47

in the course of this investigations people

49:49

broke their silence grieving family

49:51

member spoke those in hiding

49:53

answered my calls others shared

49:55

documents and every step of the way

49:58

i felt the weight of their trust and

49:59

it was often a great risk to even talk

50:02

to me but i also know

50:04

they know that this that this story

50:06

that needs to be told a story

50:08

riddled with question marks that has kept

50:10

me digging deeper and deeper

50:16

what really happened to karima why

50:18

did the authorities so quickly conclude

50:20

that she died by suicide and

50:22

or other actually targeted killings of pakistani

50:25

dissidents in the west

50:29

the answer this i began looking for connections

50:32

to the death of another prominent bullets

50:34

dissidents only eight months earlier

50:36

suggest hussein's body was

50:38

found in sweden and because

50:40

of his death according to the authorities

50:44

drowning

50:52

i mean up and kill list

50:57

the shooting at such a was murdered yes

50:59

, one hundred percent or which very my

51:02

it's to be way stress about as well you know her

51:04

fear about maybe this could happen to

51:06

me me of my human rights activism

51:09

i was placed on the state can boost

51:12

i had to see to save my life

51:13

he said that you

51:15

know you see things that he's in france

51:18

and nice far away from i reach

51:20

a tell him not to be mistaken

51:23

the top it said thirty mother

51:25

loach check and then

51:27

it's hard for five names with my name

51:29

in a to sweat that these people

51:31

are yet to be hindered

51:33

because you're doing this story i

51:35

don't want any aspect of this case

51:38

should be you know and doc for

51:40

you you should have should have

51:42

for

51:46

the team in the morning

51:48

this recording myself or my i phone

51:52

you know i the

51:54

most difficult thing ever i do my life

52:06

the ministry of foreign affairs

52:08

did not respond to requests for an interview

52:11

to discuss the allegations against states

52:13

that have been reported in the series

52:17

the kill list is created by me

52:19

mary link and written and produced along

52:22

with alina ghosts mixing and sound

52:24

design by julia whitman studio

52:26

direction by nancy reagan or story

52:28

editor is chris okay emily

52:31

to now is or digital producer fact

52:33

checking by emily monsieur legal

52:35

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