0:01

Hi everyone, it's Mo. I'm

0:03

excited to report that I'll be sharing brand

0:05

new Mobituaries starting on January

0:07

eleven. In the meantime, i'd

0:09

like you to hear a special conversation I recorded

0:12

with my CBS News colleague and friend

0:15

Major Garrett back in November. Major

0:17

has a terrific podcast called The

0:20

Takeout, and as the name would suggest,

0:22

most episodes are taped over a meal.

0:25

For this chat, we dined together at

0:27

Trattoria del Arte, across from

0:29

Carnegie Hall here in New York City.

0:32

We talked in depth about season three

0:34

of Mobituaries while gnashing on

0:36

barata and octopus. Actually

0:39

I did all the eating, which I feel kind of bad

0:41

about. I really don't mind sharing, really,

0:44

unless it's a wet dessert. I will not share

0:46

a wet dessert. I'm sorry. It is way too intimate.

0:49

Anyway, I got to tell Major how

0:51

some of this season's episodes came to be. You'll

0:54

also hear me talk about an episode of Mobituaries

0:56

we have coming up later in the month, the

0:58

story of Samantha's Math, the

1:00

ten year old girl from Maine whose

1:03

letter to then Soviet premier Eurie

1:05

and drop Hop in the nineteen eighties made

1:07

headlines. Here is that

1:09

episode of The Takeout, hosted by CBS

1:12

News Chief Washington Correspondent Major

1:14

Garrett, featuring Me Morocca

1:17

as his guest five

1:27

four three two

1:30

one. But who's counting right?

1:33

His name is Major, Lady

1:35

and gentleman. Please welcome Major

1:38

Garrett from the Nation's capital.

1:40

Major fantastic. It's

1:43

the Takeout. This is a major

1:45

team with CBS News Chief

1:47

Washington Correspondent Major Garrett,

1:49

s CBS f s Major Garrett.

1:52

Major, that's nonsense. Brother

1:54

is Major out of the dog house answers,

1:57

Yes, welcome to the red best part of my broadcast

1:59

week. Know we are winding to a close of

2:01

the year two and this episode

2:03

is going to be particularly special for

2:06

me because it's about a topic

2:08

I love. Maybe it's a topic you love

2:10

too. It's a podcast, not this one. There's

2:13

no podcast I love more than this one. You know that,

2:15

my dear friends. But it's very

2:17

close. Mobituaries Obituaries

2:20

is the beautiful, luminous

2:23

journalistic work of

2:26

Mo Rocca. Mo. It's great

2:28

to see you, thanks for being with you, and I mean

2:31

this. It is an amazing achievement.

2:33

I love every episode. I immerse

2:35

myself in every episode and I am enriched

2:37

by every episode. I'm just gonna fanboy on you

2:39

for like the next forty five minutes. If that's okay,

2:42

It is totally fine. And I did bring

2:44

my wallet, by the way, unless this is

2:46

no no, dinner is always on us here

2:48

at the take out. So speaking of that,

2:50

we are in New York City, Trotteria del

2:53

arte. What are you that? For me? Is

2:55

that okay? That was like passable? It was great?

2:59

And we're gonna talk talk about mobituaries. You're midway

3:01

through season three. The

3:04

second part of season three will start right

3:06

about when three starts. For

3:08

those who may not know about this wonderful

3:11

place to find great

3:13

stories about Americans

3:15

who've been slightly overlooked or maybe heavily

3:18

overlooked. What is the construct?

3:20

What is the premise the passion

3:22

behind mobituaries? So it's

3:24

people or things

3:27

um

3:30

in uh this season we even included

3:32

a fruit uh that um

3:34

that deserve a second look,

3:37

that passed on and didn't get the recognition

3:39

that I think they deserved. Um. And then they

3:41

also what is that I

3:45

love that? I love that? How special

3:47

is that Morocco? That will be all yours

3:50

I know because you saw the dog. Oh

3:52

that's great. The baratas, and thank you

3:54

for writing the anchovies. Barata is nothing

3:56

without anchovies. Okay,

3:59

great, thank you so much. I think very mans

4:01

is an indulgent culinary

4:04

experience entirely from Orocco. I'm

4:07

guessing you saw the documentary about the octopus,

4:09

right that everybody that I see all the documentaries

4:12

on octopus. Yeah, and so that's

4:14

why I have not I'm waiting to see it until

4:16

after I eat this. So it's basically

4:18

things that I think deserve a second

4:21

look that didn't get the send off they

4:23

deserved the first time. Or maybe he didn't get any send

4:25

off at all. Um

4:28

So, already this season we had John Denver uh

4:31

with names, and I'm sorry

4:33

that we didn't include Major, but that would have been really

4:35

interesting. Actually, do you know where it ranks

4:37

major? Very very low, very

4:40

very It does not make the top ten thousand,

4:42

I don't think ever, but that's been an advantage

4:44

for me, so I'm good with that. It probably is so

4:47

yeah. So, um So, we looked at names

4:49

like Mildred, Bertha and Todd, which

4:52

um fell off the map. I

4:54

was surprised that Todd had fallen off the map in

4:56

the early seventies. Um,

4:58

and uh so it's been it's

5:00

been a blast just to kind of dive into

5:02

these different topics. And what strikes

5:05

me about this second look process

5:07

is in some instances

5:11

the subject matter got a look

5:13

like John Denver, for example, John Denver

5:15

in his time well as a sensation,

5:18

and the treatment of at this time was He's

5:21

different than the caricature or the

5:24

popular understanding of what John Denver

5:26

was. Well, you know, I don't

5:28

know if you remember this, and

5:31

look, it might have just been in my own little

5:33

tiny corner of the world. But when

5:36

he died and I didn't,

5:38

we didn't mention this in the podcast, but

5:40

I remember a lot of like really snarky

5:43

jokes about him,

5:45

and it was sort of the same way as a child

5:48

that I remembered when Elvis died. The very

5:50

first time I heard the word loser was

5:52

on the playground at Woodacre's Elementary

5:55

School in Bethesda, Maryland, and Elvis

5:57

had died, I guess in the summer. And when I came

5:59

was showed up in August. Yeah, in third grade,

6:02

and somebody mentioned Elvis and this girl said he

6:04

was a loser, and oh,

6:07

yeah, and exactly right,

6:10

no, exactly and but but John

6:12

Denver had come to this place where he'd sort of become

6:14

a punch line, and

6:16

and so I thought, well, that's this is rich

6:19

because I'm not the only

6:21

one telling Alexa to play

6:23

John Denver's Greatest Heads. A lot of people are

6:25

doing this. And Kurt Cobain

6:27

apparently when he grew up, his mother

6:30

only had one album in the house and

6:32

it was the John Denverus Greatest Heads, and he listened

6:34

to it over and over again. And I was probably morocc

6:37

is sympathetic to that retelling of the John

6:39

Denver story because I think that's what's going to happen

6:41

when Neil Diamond dies. And I'm

6:43

a huge Neil Diamond fan and not apologetic

6:45

Neil Diamond fan. I believe he is an exceptional

6:48

songwriter. His latter part of

6:50

his career is a little bit kitchier than the first part of

6:52

his career, but I think he's a substantial member of the American

6:54

song book, and he's not treated that way. He's

6:57

not regarded that way. And I think when whatever

7:00

that day comes, it will be a sequined

7:03

reference and a lot of ribbing

7:05

of people on the in the side. Well, that guy

7:07

was really kind of just a low level

7:09

entertainer. Not true. Yeah, I

7:11

agree with that. What I mean people at ben Way would

7:14

what right, Caroline,

7:16

Yeah, but but but also just regard

7:18

that as like a baseball song. No, it's actually

7:20

a really good song in itself. Well, I think you're

7:23

I think this is what happens. It seems like with

7:25

a lot of really really um

7:28

mass appeal entertainers. And of

7:30

course it's foolish, like the audience is smart.

7:33

They attach themselves to

7:35

something for a good reason. People punched through not

7:37

by accident, and the

7:41

process of a mobituary is too

7:45

tell the story of a person's life in

7:47

the context of the times in which they lived

7:50

in not are modern times, because

7:52

some of the issues and some of the people are

7:55

viewed maybe more harshly now than

7:57

they were in the time in which they lived, or

7:59

they were subject to pressures

8:02

unlike the pressures they would face now. Back in season

8:04

two, there's a tribute to really

8:07

one of the greatest entertainers ever, Sammy Davis

8:09

Jr. Right, And that story is about

8:12

his time, his struggles and

8:14

how he moved through them.

8:17

Yeah, I think it's I mean I'd

8:19

like to try to go

8:22

back and and

8:25

and help the audience understand how the person

8:27

was received in their time. I mean,

8:29

obviously there's a point of view, So I

8:31

mean, I can't if it would be a cheat for me to say,

8:33

oh, we're not judging them by contemporary

8:36

standards, it's not true. But I

8:38

also don't want to look when we did Latin

8:41

Lovers in the first half of this season

8:43

Valentino, Roman Navarro, Fernando Lamas.

8:47

You know, Valentino is a hundred years before me too,

8:49

Okay, And so I get it these

8:52

a lot of these movies haven't dated well. Um,

8:55

but of movie goers

8:57

were women at the time, and he was created

8:59

by men. I mean, the matinee Idol was created

9:01

by women who at that time, you

9:04

know, that's what they wanted. And

9:06

so I didn't feel like digging

9:09

up women that have been dead for seventy and

9:11

eighty years and putting them on trial. I mean, for like

9:14

what they liked. I think

9:16

it's you know, it's it's sort of this is

9:18

what was at the time, and of course, you know, we

9:21

add a little bit of like my viewpoint

9:23

on it. But I'm interested in what created

9:26

this phenomena at the time. Why why people

9:28

were literally killing themselves when he died,

9:30

because there was such hysteria. And tastes

9:33

are tastes, and one of the ways to

9:35

understand how a culture evolves is

9:38

to understand tastes of a different era.

9:40

Totally, yes,

9:42

And if you don't understand the taste of a different area,

9:45

you can't mark yourself and how things have changed.

9:47

And one of the ways of appreciating and

9:52

sort of quantifying change

9:54

and evolution is, well, what were the taste

9:56

back then? And why

10:00

how do we get here? And also, I don't think I

10:03

don't think most people are that judgmental anyway.

10:06

I don't think most place senior. Oh, that's so terrible.

10:09

I mean, there is a there is a sort of self

10:12

defined judgment or judgmental

10:14

industrial complex, but most people are not a member

10:16

of it. That's hysterical. The judgmental

10:18

industrial complex is

10:20

perfect, that's perfect. Yeah,

10:23

if it most people don't count themselves in that, and they

10:25

want to know. Like, for example, going

10:27

back to John Denver, I didn't realize until

10:29

I listened, not only didn't he have

10:32

a successful songwriting career, but

10:35

and we'll talk more about this on the other side of the

10:37

break. Uh, he had one

10:39

of the most watched Christmas specials

10:41

in the history of broadcast television. Yes,

10:44

yes, I mean it's not it's

10:46

it's it's not quite the level of

10:48

say my podcast or yours.

10:51

Sixty five million people tuned in to

10:54

the Rocky Mountain Christmas Special in and

10:58

you know when I found it. You can find it on YouTube to

11:00

but don't. I'm not sure it's supposed to be there, but

11:02

it's um it is. And

11:04

you know, you and I are not far apart in age,

11:07

and so you can smell the seventies

11:09

just by listening to this thing. It is so evocative

11:13

of kind of a weird sort of one

11:16

kind of energy, you know, John

11:18

Denver, it's sort of There are

11:20

scenes of nature. There's um

11:22

flying a slow most shot of a flying

11:25

squirrel. There's a sequence on the life's life

11:27

cycle of the brook trout. And we're gonna hold

11:29

on the brook trout and all the other

11:31

scenery because we need to go to break. Do we have

11:33

brook Trout coming by the way, because

11:38

Garrett Segment two of the takeout coming

11:40

up intil a second from

11:49

CBS News. This is

11:51

the takeout with Major Garrett Welcome

11:54

back to segment two of the Takeout Trotta

11:56

del Arte in Midtown Manhattan.

11:59

Our special guest Rocca and I

12:01

am just gonna fanboy for the next forty minutes because

12:03

it's about mobituaries. It's about this phenomenal

12:06

podcast that grew out of your work

12:08

on CBS Sunday Morning, and

12:10

this gathering of

12:15

information, observation

12:18

and archival sound that brings

12:20

to life people who deserve a

12:22

second look. And we'll get back

12:24

to the John Denver Christmas Special from a

12:27

second. But you are the editorial

12:29

agent of control over who gets the second look, are

12:31

you not? Yeah? I mean, I don't know. I

12:33

don't know if you feel this way too. I just feel

12:35

like I've

12:37

learned to trust my gut. I don't want that in a leader

12:40

necessarily, but like for editorial,

12:44

you know, if something gets me in the gut.

12:46

I think there's something about, say John

12:48

Denver that and

12:50

I mentioned this in the podcast. I was this is going

12:53

to be a name drop. But I participated in a reading

12:55

that a friend put on a playwright

12:58

and Julianne Moore was there

13:00

and she sat right next to me. It was really cool, and

13:03

and my friend was being very nice and said,

13:05

oh, Julianne, you have to listen to most podcast

13:07

in obituaries. He explained what it was, and she said, who

13:09

do you have coming up? And I said John Denver and

13:12

she like she melted, She went John

13:16

Denver and and she

13:19

like was it's sort

13:21

of like she stepped into a time machine right there and went

13:23

back and and was just exhaled

13:26

and and uh um. And I

13:28

think that there's something that makes people.

13:30

He's what I call an undervalued stock.

13:33

And I think there are people like that

13:35

that they're sitting somewhere in the back of our

13:37

minds, and then if you bring them up, people

13:39

go, oh my god, that's right. I loved that

13:41

person. And if you can find those

13:43

are people that I'm always kind of like, who

13:46

who is a person like that? And

13:49

go back to the Christmas Special? So did you say

13:51

sixty eight million people watch this? Six

13:55

that is? So this is remember Dais and gentle let's

13:57

just go back in the way back machine with Mr

14:00

Peabody. Yeah. So broadcast

14:03

television back then was a mass audience

14:05

structure. Three networks that were

14:07

not a lot of choices were streaming alternatives.

14:10

There weren't cable alternatives. But still

14:12

it was highly competitive because of

14:14

that intense segmented

14:16

So if you pulled sixty eight million, you

14:19

were literally pulling ten million viewers

14:22

from two other networks at that hour.

14:24

It is Listen, you're absolutely right when people

14:26

say, oh, there were only three networks. Okay, that's fine, but also

14:28

the country was also significantly smaller. Okay,

14:31

the country had I think probably you

14:33

know, like two competitive zeal to

14:35

grab a million viewers, let alone ten million from

14:37

another network was off the chart. Yeah.

14:40

And so when you watch this thing, it's

14:42

I mean, it's very weirdly seventies. He's

14:44

and basically he's like basically in a snow

14:46

globe and a biosphere

14:49

that they've built for him in the rockies,

14:52

and he's got like grow eas and greenies

14:54

as he calls him. Inside. He has all this plant life

14:56

inside um and UM

14:59

at the whole thing. I'm not surprised. Imagine

15:03

hanging Macromay baskets are probably

15:05

in there somewhere. And he's

15:08

got the biggest stars of the day. He's got Steve

15:10

Martin in his Wild and Crazy Guy, UM

15:13

period and and Um,

15:16

Valerie Harper, Olivia Newton, John

15:18

Um and he just sort

15:21

of sings songs. There's

15:23

kind of a it's cheerful, but there's

15:25

also something kind of wand and sort of seventies

15:27

about it. And think about the psyche

15:30

collectively of the country. Nine the

15:32

bi centennial year. But we're coming off Vietnam.

15:35

We're wondering about what what America means after

15:37

two hundred years. We are still dealing with

15:39

the after effects of the civil rights movement, campus

15:42

riots, all of those things. Watergate is

15:44

just right in the rear view mirror. And

15:46

this idea of almost

15:50

like this snow globe commune

15:53

ye yep, sitting in the

15:55

middle of living rooms across America

15:58

found a

16:00

place of traction psychically, I

16:03

think people if you look at it and you think

16:05

people just needed a break, people just

16:08

needed a break. And even

16:10

the way everyone in the audience shots, the reaction

16:13

shots, I mean there's

16:15

a there's a I wouldn't say a like

16:17

quality to it, but everyone

16:20

looks mildly sedated, like

16:22

and so everyone's ballly

16:24

um, it's like a very like that crowd

16:27

and uhum, and everyone

16:29

sort of naturally attractive, like no one

16:31

seems to be wearing makeup, none of the women and so

16:34

um, and he's sort of strumming his guitar and they're

16:36

having a sing along. Um And one of

16:38

the things I love about the Mobituaries about John Denver.

16:40

And I promise we'll get onto other parts of

16:42

Mobituary Season three. But I found

16:44

this deeply meaningful to me because

16:47

I had sort of overlooked John Denver

16:49

until recently got the greatest hits

16:51

on my iTunes. And

16:54

we all remember, I certainly remember the time

16:56

Rocky Mountain High having a kind

16:59

of hilarious

17:01

end joke Rocky Mountain High,

17:03

everyone stone, that's not what

17:06

the song is about. And the first three

17:08

stands of that song, I urged my audience

17:10

go back and listen to it. It is beautiful,

17:13

evocative life journey

17:16

writing. It really is. And

17:18

I mean yeah, And he went and he

17:20

testified in fact, but

17:22

during the um Parents

17:24

Music Research Council, right the tipper Goore

17:27

hearings that what are commonly known as that

17:29

and and said, you know, my song was

17:31

not was not about that. It seems almost quaint

17:34

now because no one would

17:36

care today if they thought it then.

17:38

And it was sort of like an allegation against it, like a

17:40

celebration of sitting around a campfire just getting

17:43

stoned and that's all that's all American youth

17:45

could do, and how terrible that was, and we

17:47

ought to do something about that. Arms

17:49

Akind Absolutely No, it

17:52

was his. It was his reaction to seeing

17:55

the the parased meteor

17:57

shower from twelve thousand feet up in the Rockies

17:59

and how beautiful that was. Damn exactly exactly.

18:02

Um, how is it that

18:05

people like John Denver? And I imagine

18:07

you've thought about this because

18:09

you're saying this person deserves a second

18:12

look? Have you ever come

18:14

to a unified theory about why they didn't

18:16

get the good look the first time? M

18:20

Um? Well, I think it's probably

18:22

different in every case. I think for John

18:24

Denver, I do think that he would have been

18:26

recognized more had he lived longer. And you

18:29

know what you know, as you know one of the

18:31

in the podcast Bill flan Again it was

18:34

a great music writer, and I talked

18:36

about how today he might be Dolly Partner.

18:38

He might have been Dolly Partner, this enduring person

18:41

of with a with a great songbook

18:43

that is a touchdowe for lots of people over

18:46

many generations. Yeah, I think so. And

18:48

I don't know what the statistics are, but I bet

18:50

that the number

18:53

of times his songs are played would probably

18:55

surprise a lot of us, like how they're

18:57

still played. So, um, yeah,

18:59

I think you would be a figure like that. And uh

19:03

so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure. It's

19:06

it's a it's I think it's different every time. So

19:08

who is Mr and Mrs Smith And why did they

19:10

rate a mobituary? Well? Mr

19:13

and Mrs Smith rated him obituary

19:15

because actually the producer of that episode, um

19:17

Zoe Marcus, had sent long ago

19:20

an image of a Time magazine cover from seven

19:24

Um that simply says Mr and Mrs

19:26

Smith an interracial marriage. And

19:29

I remember being struck that I had

19:31

not known the story that Dean Rusk,

19:33

the Georgia Democrat who was

19:36

um the Secretary of State under Kennedy

19:38

and and LBJ, that his

19:40

daughter, who was white, married

19:42

a black man in seven and that

19:44

that would have been put on the cover of Time

19:47

magazine. And and one of

19:49

the details really jumped out at me that Dean Rusk,

19:52

her father, had offered his resignation to

19:54

the president because he was worried

19:57

that the publicity around it

19:59

would comprom eyes, you

20:01

know, crucial Southern support and Congress

20:03

for the president's agenda on

20:05

like a civil rights in Vietnam. But um

20:09

that one marriage could be so

20:11

galvanized as to possibly

20:14

jeopardize the political prospects of a president

20:16

of the United States. Right. But what also

20:18

kind of captivated me was the idea of

20:21

this young couple in love who end up

20:23

on the cover of Time magazine and then are completely

20:26

forgotten, which they were very happy

20:28

about. They retired, They moved

20:30

as young people to central

20:32

Virginia and raised horses all their

20:34

lives. I mean, she was Peggy Rusk of

20:36

the daughter of the Secretary of State,

20:39

was not like a did not aspire

20:41

to be a Washington doyenne or social climber.

20:43

She just had no interest in that. She found this

20:45

guy, fell in love, they married, and they just wanted

20:47

to get away from it all and be with horses, which

20:49

is how they met. And why is nineteen sixty

20:52

seven a particularly important year because it

20:54

ends up being this year where it starts

20:56

with um loving versus Virginia

20:59

and the unanim mis ruling and um

21:02

uh that struck down bands

21:04

in sixteen states against mixed race

21:06

marriages. And then you have this marriage

21:08

in the middle, and then you have guests Who's coming

21:10

to dinner? Um, huge

21:13

box office success at the end of that

21:15

year. And then there's a little detail

21:17

that I thought was really interesting that

21:20

Sidney pot I'm gonna hold you right there because

21:22

that interesting detail is a perfect segue

21:24

and a grabber for the next segment

21:27

of the Takeout, And that's what Rocca is

21:29

doing. And the broados here and I'm Major Garrett

21:31

back for more of our deeply

21:34

enjoyable conversation about Mobituary season

21:36

three here on the Takeout from

21:50

CBS News. This is

21:52

the Takeout with Major Garrett. Welcome

21:55

back. This is not a rhetorical question. How delightful

21:57

is it to spend the end of twenty

22:00

two in the presence of Mo Rocca in downtown

22:02

Midtown, New York. It's spectacular. I told

22:04

you it was not a rhetorical question. Our subject

22:07

matter is Mo Rocca. Of course, Mobituaries.

22:10

Midway through season three, UM,

22:12

we're talking about Mr and Mrs Smith. One

22:14

of the things I found very interesting

22:17

about that episode is

22:20

Dean Rusk's daughter, who becomes Mrs

22:22

Smith, doesn't

22:24

really think much of guests Who's coming to dinner?

22:26

The movie which wasn't, as you said, a box

22:29

office sensation then and is regarded

22:31

as one of these turning point movies of

22:34

its time, and people who watch

22:36

it now find great inspiration,

22:39

substance, emotion, and

22:42

a kind of clarity in it. But that didn't really

22:44

land that way with her. It sounded like to me, you know,

22:46

it didn't. And I found her as

22:48

a character so

22:50

interesting because she was and

22:52

and I'm sure when you encounter this, i'd

22:55

like, I'm guessing you're happy

22:57

about it. She's like someone who's

22:59

never watching TV because she doesn't

23:01

have the cadence of a TV interviewee.

23:04

She just answers like she'll sometimes

23:06

do like one word answers and

23:09

she talks like a normal person. I'm like,

23:11

what are you doing? Why are you being so normal?

23:14

Like you're supposed to talk like people do on TV and

23:16

give these answers. You're just to

23:18

give me the answers I'm expecting, what is wrong

23:20

here? No, it's so and but what

23:23

I what What I also found sort of inspiring

23:27

is kind of she had this clarity that

23:29

she was in love with this guy and that's all that matters.

23:31

She wasn't really I was sort of taken aback

23:34

when she says she wasn't following the Supreme Court

23:36

case. Now, that's probably because

23:38

she was in a state where she was in the district

23:40

of Columbia and she was gonna get married in California.

23:42

There wasn't going to be an issue there in were

23:45

protected. Yeah, but but

23:47

but she wasn't. She just says, look,

23:49

I don't know what to tell you. I wasn't doing this to

23:51

make a cultural impact or make a political

23:53

point. I was doing it because I was in love. And

23:55

when I interviewed the great entertainer

23:57

Leslie Ulghams, who married a white man an Austar

24:00

alien two years before in she

24:02

sort of said the same thing, like, you

24:04

know, when you're in love with somebody, you're not really

24:07

thinking about the social issue aspect

24:10

of it. I mean, you know, and

24:12

that's maybe one of the ways, you know, it's

24:16

really deep and abiding for them,

24:19

right, because they're not distracted

24:21

by all these other things. They just know what they are,

24:23

who they are, and what it means to be together, right,

24:26

And there's a

24:28

abject beauty to that mm hmm.

24:31

Completely, it's so pure, and

24:34

then it's it's sort of plainness

24:36

and ordinariness. It

24:39

seems to me as I was listening felt

24:41

extraordinary. Yeah,

24:43

well, I'm glad you feel that way. Thank

24:45

you, and uh and thank her. But

24:48

it's um, and I hope

24:51

that that's why it's that that people that

24:53

it's landing with a lot of people who

24:55

are sick of everything, every

24:57

personal story becoming news

25:01

becoming a political story necessarily because it

25:03

doesn't. It just doesn't, it

25:06

doesn't fit it that neatly. And if you

25:08

allow me, well, I'd like to reach back to season

25:10

two, uh to talk about Sammy Davis Jr.

25:13

Um, because some in

25:15

this audience may not have a real memory. Uh,

25:18

Sammy Davis Jr. You have to be a person

25:20

at a certain age like you and I are you. And I grew up

25:22

watching Sammy on television and

25:25

even then I knew he was amazing, but I didn't

25:27

know until I listened to the show how highly

25:31

he was regarded by

25:33

the superstars of his time.

25:36

Yeah, he really was. When he was at Ciro's

25:38

nightclub in Los Angeles, I mean people,

25:41

everyone wanted to get in and see him perform.

25:44

And he was quite young then. He was primarily

25:46

a dancer then and uh,

25:48

um and part of a nightclub act with his father

25:51

and part of the will Maston trio. Um.

25:54

But even then, you know, people

25:56

were fighting to get in and see this this masterful

25:58

performer. And then he lost his eye

26:01

and he came back from that. But part

26:03

of why I wanted to do him just because

26:05

not just my admiration and affection

26:07

and call it death of an entertainer, is

26:10

because entertainer

26:12

the word. Sometimes people are a

26:14

little kind of I think it sounds

26:16

a little cheeseball, but they're dismissive

26:18

it, right. But to be a capital e entertainer

26:21

like that, um, that's

26:24

really special. To be somebody who performs,

26:26

you know, in Vegas and then goes back to his hotel

26:29

room and does the whole act again with lizam and Ellie

26:31

because they both just love performing.

26:35

That's like, that's a certain drive

26:37

and an energy that that we

26:39

all are great should be grateful for

26:41

to have that person in our lives.

26:44

And there's a theme in that mobituary

26:46

that I think is also important because looking

26:50

back at entertainers of that era, So in the

26:52

TV era who made it big, they

26:56

came out of vaudeville, which was a place

26:58

that demanded not just one

27:00

talent. You could not be successful in vaudeville

27:03

as a single talent entertainer. No,

27:06

I mean he was sort of a quintuple threat.

27:08

I guess, actor, singer, dancer. He had the gun spinning

27:10

routine, which was really amazing. Uh.

27:12

He was also a really great impressionist, and

27:14

he was also groundbreaking impressionist because he

27:16

was a black impressionist, um,

27:19

imitating white actors. But

27:22

and when he did that in the army after being

27:24

physically beaten regularly,

27:27

you know, because he was part of the first wave of integrated

27:29

forces. Um, he was so good

27:32

that that even like

27:34

the abusive white you know, soldiers

27:37

who would bullied him and worse, you know,

27:39

we're like, whoa, this guy is really special.

27:42

And one other theme

27:44

that comes through subtly. But I think it's important

27:46

because it's a hallmark of people who

27:49

are successful in times

27:51

when their success is harder

27:53

than the people they are around. There was a

27:55

tenacity to Sammy.

27:58

Yeah, they're yeah, there there

28:01

was. There was, there was a tenacity he kept

28:03

going. And I think also there's something,

28:05

Um,

28:07

I find something. I actually,

28:10

weirdly enough, was thinking a little bit of Ellen DeGeneres

28:13

when I was doing this, because I

28:15

remember when I profiled her that

28:19

she said, you know, I

28:21

just want to make people laugh. I just want to be an entertainer.

28:24

And she sort of got caught

28:27

up in one point in

28:30

politics and having you know, and she

28:32

she she was okay being an advocate,

28:34

but what she really wanted to do was entertained

28:36

and that's kind of Sammy Davis Jr. And

28:38

by the way, Sammy Davis Jr. Went and launched it Selma.

28:41

He was on the march on Washington and I

28:43

think Harry Belafonte even said at one point, I don't

28:45

understand why Sammy Davis Jr. Doesn't

28:47

get credit for that, and it's seen as somebody

28:49

who sort of shirked that, which he didn't.

28:52

But maybe it's because he was so first and foremost

28:55

an entertainer and loved doing that. There

28:58

might be one answer. It's referred to in the

29:00

episode. I remember it in my household growing

29:02

up when he endorsed Richard Nixon, and

29:05

that maybe one reason. That was a moment from

29:07

my Republican Paris right.

29:10

I'm seriously it was. It was a moment and

29:13

they said, see Richard

29:16

Nixon must be fine. This

29:18

this this amazing. We

29:21

did not use the terminology African American at

29:23

the time, this amazing black American

29:25

has endorsed Richard Nixon. Good enough for Sammy,

29:27

good enough for us even Yeah, it was

29:29

a moment. And you mentioned in the episode

29:32

that there was a little bit of hey,

29:34

what are you doing among white liberals

29:36

and maybe some in the civil rights community,

29:39

you know, there was And then he this

29:41

great speech was a push conference. I

29:43

am who I am right, Yeah,

29:47

I'm a black man in American I've made a choice, right

29:50

and and and it was and I really loved talking

29:52

to Willie Brown about that, who is, by

29:54

the way, just one of the greatest interviews ever.

29:57

So he talked about an individual

29:59

y mean and as sharp

30:02

an observer and uh,

30:05

he has to pick up on something you said earlier,

30:07

a gut sense of politics that is very

30:09

very good, very very sharp, always has

30:12

and he had sort of a three

30:15

sixty view of Sammy. He really

30:17

did. And he also really

30:20

pushed back at the notion that Sammy

30:23

might have been deficient because he

30:26

was so much about entertainment. He was like, no, he's

30:28

a great cook. He was, you know, a film

30:30

lover. He was a really sophisticated guy

30:32

and a great host. So it was I

30:35

loved hearing his perspective. So when

30:37

we think about, because we're going to be anticipating

30:40

in a lot of different ways, what should we think about,

30:42

what can you set the table at

30:45

for coming up from obituaries in

30:47

the second part of season three, Well, I really

30:50

wanted to tell the story of Samantha

30:52

Smith, whom you probably remember,

30:54

but an astonishing number of people have forgotten

30:57

that. In this young girl

30:59

from Jane, she wasn't

31:01

connected. She wrote a letter

31:04

like how many kids were

31:06

kept awake at night during

31:08

the eighties and seventies. I'm sure terrified

31:11

that the world was going to be blown up,

31:13

right, that the Soviet Union in America

31:16

would trade you know, I

31:18

CBMs and and uh and

31:21

she wrote a letter to Eurie

31:24

drop LP and with that another

31:26

teaser. At

31:29

the top of his game, Always at the top

31:31

of his game, I Major Garrett. That's Morocco. Stay

31:33

tuned for segment four because that's a great teaser.

31:36

When we get back from

31:47

CBS News, this is

31:49

the takeout with Major Garrett. Always

31:52

fantastic to be in New York City. Even better

31:54

when I get to sit down for meal with Morocca.

31:56

So, Mo, you were talking about

31:58

a letter, Well, right, do you remember

32:01

towards the end of the Soviet Union, there

32:03

were like a succession of really scary

32:05

ghoules at the top. Right, it went, it

32:08

went, the Supreme Soviet

32:11

it went well, it went Breshnev and

32:13

drop Up in Chernienko, Right, those

32:15

are the three. I mean, Breshnev had been there

32:17

a long time. But but and

32:19

drop Up was like like particularly

32:22

a caricature of a scary guy because he'd run

32:25

the KGB right and uh and

32:27

um. And so this girl, Samantha Smith

32:29

wrote this letter saying, you know, why do you want

32:31

to blow up the world basically, and he

32:33

wrote her back. The letter was published in propta

32:36

um and said, you know, we don't want

32:38

that, and um,

32:41

you know people all over the world are the

32:43

same blah blah blah blah blah, and come

32:45

visit the Soviet Union. And so she went, and

32:47

CBS and News covered the hell out of it. It was a

32:49

very big deal. But what I

32:51

found, um in

32:53

previous seasons of the podcast is people

32:56

under a certain age really not that

32:58

much younger than me, but had no clue.

33:00

And one of the producers said, no, you

33:03

this, You've got to do this episode because

33:06

no one I'm telling you, no millennials

33:08

know this story at all, not only all of that story,

33:10

but have any sense of And

33:13

you mentioned this before we went to break and it might

33:15

have struck people. What the

33:17

terror terror, the psychic

33:20

heaviness that came with

33:22

the Cold War, And in the seventies

33:24

and eighties, almost

33:26

once a month there was a story written about

33:28

the ever enlarging stockpiles of nuclear

33:30

weapons and how many times over one

33:33

side or another could obliterate Planet Earth.

33:36

That was heavy, It was real, and

33:39

it weighed on you every single day. It

33:41

weighed on you. And and so when I hear about kids

33:43

who have climate anxiety, I take that seriously.

33:46

When I hear that, like kids have trouble sleeping

33:48

because they're worried that the planet is

33:51

going to be destroyed, and um, you

33:53

know that the cities and places where they live will be submerged

33:55

by the oceans. And I thought that's

33:57

what it was that I can sort

34:00

of felt existential. It felt existential.

34:03

And I had two fears at that time myself

34:06

as an adolescent, that the world

34:08

would be destroyed by nuclear attack, and

34:10

that Broadway was just not economically

34:13

viable as a model, and that by the time I moved to New

34:15

York, there would be no you know, Broadway. So

34:17

those two things were the we're really

34:19

weighing on me. Uh, Samantha Smith

34:21

did nothing for the Broadway community, I'm sure

34:23

you know, but thankfully it's still here,

34:26

still here and going strong. But

34:29

but she did, she did something remarkable.

34:31

And she was a kid, an ordinary kid, and

34:34

and the trip there was really interesting

34:36

because she that

34:38

was not easy to comport herself the way she

34:40

did, and so that story has been really interesting

34:43

to tell. So one of the things

34:45

that I find so enjoyable

34:47

about obituaries is

34:49

not only is it a second look, but

34:52

it's a closer look at

34:54

the first two lines of the original obituary,

34:57

if you will, Because everyone

34:59

who who achieves some level of

35:01

notoriety, this is true,

35:03

ladies and gentlemen, I've done it. You

35:05

wonder, all right, when I die,

35:08

what's the first or second line going to be about

35:11

me? Anyone who denies

35:13

that is not being honest with themselves,

35:15

and they're not being honest with you, Okay.

35:18

And so you look at that lead and you

35:20

say, is that true? Yes?

35:22

But or did

35:25

that completely miss it or miss it by more than

35:27

it should have? It seems to me that's one of

35:30

the exercises you go through in

35:32

the process. Well, I appreciate that because I

35:34

hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I'd like to think

35:36

that that's what we are doing with it. I

35:38

hope so. Um, I think you're right. It

35:40

is interesting to see what that little is

35:43

it in a positive I

35:45

forget what the grammatical term for it

35:47

is. But you know, Joe Schmo

35:50

Calma

35:52

died today, he was sixty eight

35:55

or whatever. Exactly exactly what is

35:57

that thing that is the

35:59

essence? Yeah, what is the contemporary

36:01

essence of this person? Maybe

36:04

right, maybe incomplete, maybe

36:06

more wrong than right. And it seems to me that's one

36:08

of the things you're trying to excavate. Yeah,

36:10

And and look that changes with I

36:13

mean different eras, because

36:16

you know, a while back, when Jerry Jerry

36:18

Lee Lewis died, some of the

36:20

the I could see that some

36:23

of the o bits were balancing his

36:25

legendary career as a rock and roller

36:27

with his personal life in trying

36:29

to smush it in there. You

36:32

know, in earlier era would not have worried about

36:34

the personal side. I'm not saying one is right and

36:36

one is wrong. What is that is there? Oh, thank you so much.

36:38

That's fine, that's fine.

36:43

Actually no, it's not. But

36:46

it is a break in the video action, which

36:48

is which is what when

36:51

Midtown Manhattan it's a functioning, moving

36:54

wine indulgent restaurants. So that's

36:56

great. This is not a rehearsal to

36:58

say, that's the kids saying right yeah,

37:02

And it's not a drill without

37:04

they saying and it's

37:06

uh an appraisal plus

37:09

more. And what do you find about

37:11

the podcast space that gives you

37:13

that elbow room?

37:15

Well, I think certainly the space

37:18

the time you know that you can take, which

37:20

I don't you know, I don't want

37:22

to abuse that. You know, sometimes on streaming

37:24

shows you think, well, you know, maybe it could

37:26

have used a commercially a network exactly

37:29

telling you sorry, five episodes,

37:31

not a yeah exactly, you know,

37:34

forty minutes, not seventy like you

37:36

didn't need that, and uh um.

37:38

But I think there's there's

37:41

a room for that. I also think, you know, probably

37:43

sometimes for intense interviews,

37:45

not you know, showing up with just a microphone,

37:48

people will open up a little bit of that question

37:50

without question. I think so. And one of the things that

37:52

I find and you will probably

37:55

feel humble about this in

37:57

a way that I don't intend, like, oh, major,

37:59

what are you saying that for? You have convening authority,

38:01

there are people who will talk to you that enlarge

38:04

this project and these and these concepts.

38:06

It feels to me, well, I hope so,

38:08

I mean, that's that is nice of you to say that, and

38:10

I hope so. I hope as people listen to more episodes

38:13

or or see interviews that they like that I've

38:15

done, um, that it will make

38:17

them more open to it.

38:19

I know with you know, with John Denver that

38:21

there was a lot of protectiveness around

38:24

him and I thought, all right, you know, um,

38:26

but but who's who is the leading character

38:29

of that episode? His ex

38:31

wife Annie? Yeah,

38:34

and and that that had to take

38:36

some doing it did

38:38

I think she needed to know that this was

38:40

not this was coming from I know it

38:42

sounds corny, but from a place of love and

38:44

it is it is which you know, Um,

38:49

that's there. There's a way,

38:51

you know, from a place of love to get too

38:55

to make discoveries. And in the last minute or so, we

38:57

have mode. It feels also that one of the things

38:59

you want to help people

39:01

understand is that there is

39:03

an American story. It has lots of characters,

39:05

there are lots of complexities to it, and

39:08

we should spend some time

39:10

with it. Yeah, um,

39:13

yes, uh and um

39:18

yeah, and I want to tell more of those stories.

39:21

And well, I mean yeah, because I really

39:24

like America and I and think there are

39:26

a lot of great stories and there are a lot of things to

39:28

be happy and proud about, and

39:31

uh, you know, and and um

39:34

there are a lot of heroes and uh

39:37

you know, I don't want it to be hokey and um,

39:40

but uh sure,

39:42

I mean that. I hope there are many more episodes

39:45

that we can keep telling stories

39:47

about people who overcame struggles

39:49

and achieved great things in part

39:52

because they were here. So Jamie

39:54

Benson, who was behind the camera with us

39:56

this episode and running audio and who was an

39:58

integral part of article

40:01

and has been part of my success

40:03

in the debrief in the take out for the better part

40:06

of six years, had an idea

40:08

and you latched onto it. So

40:10

let's roll with this a little basis major Why don't

40:12

you think of a possible mobituary?

40:15

Can I suggest one? Please? Kurt

40:18

Flood? Who's Kurt

40:20

Flood? Beautiful? Beautiful

40:23

beautiful. I'm already intrigued.

40:26

Kurt Flood played major League baseball. He

40:28

played Major League baseball for the St. Louis

40:30

Cardinals. He was an All Star outfielder

40:34

African American. Kurt

40:37

Flood went to federal court to

40:39

challenge the reserve clause, which

40:41

was something that existed in Major

40:43

League Baseball until Kurt Flood came

40:45

along. What was the reserve clause?

40:49

It said, every Major League baseball team reserved

40:51

the right to keep you on their roster until

40:53

they changed their mind. You could never opt

40:56

out of your contract for the perpetuity

40:58

of your major league career. Kurt

41:00

Flood said that disabled

41:03

him and every other Major League baseball player from

41:05

their rights to test their value among

41:08

other teams. Kurt Flood

41:10

went to federal court one his

41:12

case and began the era of free

41:14

agency. So that's how

41:16

we got free agency. I had no idea.

41:19

I had no idea. Well, I'm instantly drawn to it. Also

41:21

because I know how Cardinal fans

41:24

are just so fur fan and which

41:26

makes the best baseball fans in the country.

41:28

I've been to many baseball games in St. Louis, and

41:30

they know the game. They are deeply appreciative

41:33

and Missouri

41:36

has a complicated history in our country

41:38

sure with with race relations

41:40

dating all the way back to to pre

41:43

Civil War times. Um,

41:45

the dread Scott case originates

41:48

in part in Missouri. Kurt Flood

41:50

is an enormously important part of

41:52

the American story and the assertion of

41:54

rights and the searching for rights. In

41:57

a different context athletics, but

41:59

was in enormously important to the game we see

42:02

before us today. That right,

42:04

So that that's that's that's one suggestion. Um

42:07

what else he got? We

42:10

got a lot of We got seasons to fill a

42:14

more material Now, Uh,

42:16

this this can't happen yet because

42:21

he's still with us. But when

42:23

the day comes, and I hope it's not soon, I

42:25

believe Jerry Brown would deserve an

42:28

examination for his

42:31

multi decade career in politics

42:33

that has more twists and turns

42:36

than I think anyone comparable.

42:39

Well, and also Jerry Brown, I

42:42

mean at one point he went and worked in Calcutto

42:45

with mother Teresa. I mean, he's had a really

42:47

contrascinating life, and he was

42:49

this Roman candle in American

42:52

politics early in his career, and

42:54

he's very reflective about the mistakes he made

42:57

and the Hubris that came with it then,

43:00

And this is one of the things that I'm drawn to, not ideologically,

43:02

not because of party, but because of I

43:04

believe people who will stay in the arena deserve

43:07

appraisal. You're staying in the arena because

43:09

it's not easy to stay in the arena. He

43:11

was very high and

43:14

then he went back and became a mayor in

43:16

a very tough stay to be in Oakland,

43:20

way up high, back down low,

43:22

and then served and understood, and he learned

43:25

more about being a good

43:27

leader and being a good deliverer

43:30

of services to a community than

43:32

he rose to attorney general. Then he became governor

43:34

again and ushered

43:37

California into its sort of

43:39

modern future. I just think

43:42

he is someone who spands decades and

43:44

isn't rigid in any of those particular

43:46

decades. And I love that that

43:49

he went from governor to being mayor and reminds

43:51

me a little bit of John Quincy Adams going from president

43:53

to a house rap and that being his happiest

43:55

time actually as a house rap and uh um

43:58

and uh and and didn't

44:01

Jerry Brown dated deper Winger also, so

44:03

he's Linda Ronda Ronstad. Sorry,

44:05

Bob Kerry dated deper winger winger.

44:08

I don't want to do that to different winger, but anyway,

44:12

everything dated, No, no, no,

44:14

uh the uh um yeah,

44:16

Linda ron Stadt of course, but yeah, no,

44:19

he's what an interesting life. Well, we wish

44:21

him well, We wish you well, Jerry absolutely absolutely.

44:23

I'm not, yeah, prematurizing

44:25

that, if that's even a word, But I do think

44:27

there is something worth saying about

44:30

Jerry Brown because he occupies

44:32

the difference and and he is an embodiment

44:34

of the seventies in a certain way, a caricature

44:36

of that time. And you either stuck

44:38

with that are you mature it out of it? And I think that journey

44:41

is is interesting. Can you know how far we've

44:43

fallen? I remember when he

44:45

was in the primary against Phil was the first

44:47

presidential campaign I covered, Okay, and

44:49

I remember listening to W A. M

44:51

U. I think it was still called there and Diane Ream

44:54

and somebody called up and went, well,

44:56

Governor Moonbeam, and then she went

44:58

and she went, we do not insult

45:01

people on this show, and she made the caller

45:03

apologize. And how far we fall

45:05

in because now everyone just insults each other all

45:08

the time. But then that was your authenticity

45:10

to insult. I'm

45:13

authentic and I don't insult. I'm Major Garrett

45:16

Morocco. What a pleasure, thanks man, and you're

45:18

not. And I'm eating anchovies and you're not insulting

45:20

me. I mean because

45:22

I'm not touching a mom, not today, not ever.

45:25

That's it, ladies and down. When we'll see you next week. The Takeout

45:27

is produced by Arden Farie, Jamie

45:30

Benson, Sarah Cook, Ellie Watson,

45:32

Jake Rosen, and Ashley Armstrong.

45:35

CBSN production by Eric Susanin.

45:38

Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

45:41

at Takeout Podcast. That's

45:43

at Takeout podcast, and for

45:45

more go to Takeout podcast dot

45:48

com. The Takeout is a production

45:50

of CBS News. I

45:55

hope you enjoyed listening to this episode

45:57

of The Takeout with Major Garrett,

46:00

a weekly podcast from CBS News.

46:02

If you like what you heard, may I ask you to follow

46:05

The take Out. Just like Mobituaries,

46:07

It's available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify

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or altogether Now wherever you

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46:14

next week with more new episodes from

46:17

season three of Mobituaries.