0:01

It was you, Kristin, who

0:04

shot you up. I watched a lot

0:06

of TV growing up. When

0:13

I was nine, I memorized the

0:15

TV guide

0:21

When my brother Lawrence told Missus Barnett

0:23

across the street that he had a younger brother.

0:26

She didn't believe him. You wouldn't like me when

0:28

I'm angry. That's

0:32

how little I went outside. I

0:35

learned early on that the television universe

0:38

is divided into hour long dramas

0:40

I Trusted You, I Trusted

0:43

You, and half hour sitcoms.

0:49

On dramas, death is a fact

0:51

of life. Consider that, over the course

0:54

of the six seasons of The Sopranos,

0:56

ninety two characters died. You

0:58

shot him at his bad naked no

1:01

chance to run, I swear gun. It's

1:04

even grizzlier on Game of Thrones, where

1:10

characters have a seventy percent chance

1:12

of getting killed off and

1:15

the records. But

1:18

today we're talking about something far

1:21

more mysterious,

1:23

something that's haunted me ever since

1:25

my childhood basement dwelling days,

1:28

something that just shouldn't happen. I'm

1:33

Morocca and this is mobituaries.

1:36

This mobit sitcom

1:38

depths and disappearances.

2:00

I've brought in an expert to help me investigate

2:02

the phenomenon of sitcom depths

2:04

and disappearances. I'm Alan

2:06

Sepinwall, chief TV critic for Rolling

2:08

Stone. I've been writing about TV

2:11

since the nineties when there were like five

2:13

channels, and now there's you know, five hundred

2:15

different scripted shows on TV right now.

2:17

I'm not the first person to say, but there's too much

2:20

TV. There really is, you

2:22

know, and it's good to hear, like people who

2:24

are not TV critics say that. And also, the Western

2:26

world's fertility rates are really low, so

2:29

there's just not enough people to watch these

2:31

shows. You know,

2:33

who's going to watch Longmeyer. I don't have time

2:35

to do it. And I'm sure it's a fine show,

2:37

but there's so many other things, so

2:39

many It's like when you hear about how big

2:41

the universe actually is and it starts

2:43

to hurt. Oh my god. And like the Netflix

2:46

interface alone, it's like you you could spend

2:48

like the length of a movie looking

2:51

for a movie. Our topic here is

2:53

sitcom depths and disappearances. One

2:55

of the great mysteries. So I actually

2:57

died once on TV. It was not

3:00

on a sitcom. It was on an hour long drama

3:02

on law and Order, criminal intent. I

3:04

played a gossip column. It's named t K.

3:06

Richmond. They even gave me a Fedora to wear. I've

3:09

never ever watched this, I promise

3:11

you. I swear I've never seen this, and

3:14

I thought I would watch it with an esteemed

3:16

television critic for the first time. So Helen,

3:18

if if you join me for this, here we go.

3:20

Okay, let's do it. Oh

3:24

God, that hat doesn't really work on me. Elliott,

3:27

Elliott, calm down. There's nothing

3:30

that says that these pictures have to run in my

3:32

column, blackmail photos. We're

3:35

in a car now. It's not a bribe,

3:37

it's an opportunity. This is going to be the

3:39

hot new place. The pictures

3:41

go away, right right. I

3:44

do have a little integrity.

3:48

Did you just blow up? How was that? I

3:50

just blew up? Oh? Do they show

3:52

my charred remains? Oh

3:55

no? Oh

3:57

my hat? The hat survives. So that's

4:00

good. What

4:05

do you think did I pass as a New York Post gossip

4:07

reporter? I mean your look was very

4:09

sweet smell of success. Well, thank

4:12

you. I love any Tony Curtis comparison.

4:15

Okay, So lots of people die in hour

4:18

long dramas. I think, Actually, that's right.

4:20

That's the main ingredients. Somebody has to die in every

4:22

law and order, and there've been three thousand of them.

4:24

But for someone to die or disappear

4:27

on a sitcom is much different.

4:29

Why Because sitcom's, in

4:31

theory, are meant to be a little bit lighter, more

4:34

relatable, more relaxing. It's you're

4:36

going to spend some happy time laughing at,

4:38

you know, someone tripping over the couch, or forgetting

4:40

to pick up the groceries or something relatively

4:43

simple. Death is not

4:45

that. In other words, sitcom

4:47

audiences don't want characters to

4:50

die, which is why in some rare

4:52

cases the characters have just disappeared

4:55

without any explanation, a syndrome

4:58

given its own name, Cunningham

5:00

syndrome. Happy

5:04

There was Chuck Cunningham, the third Cunningham

5:07

child on Happy Days, the eldest Cunningham

5:09

child, who was in the show for two

5:11

seasons and then was never heard from or

5:13

mentioned again. Anna,

5:17

who was Chuck Cunningham? You said the third

5:19

child, But I'm glad you corrected yourself and

5:21

said the eldest, because he was the first child.

5:24

Not that Howard or Marion acted like

5:26

he was particularly special. I mean he lived

5:28

in the apartment above the garage before

5:30

funds. He did. He was usually when you saw

5:32

him either carrying a basketball or

5:34

eating food, or possibly both. I gotta

5:36

go to basketball practice. He

5:39

was not really a prominent part of the show. And

5:41

then a couple of years in the producers decided

5:43

we don't need another Cunningham and we want Funzy

5:45

to live above the garage, and so Chuck

5:48

disappeared and never came back. You write the basketball

5:50

in the sandwich or his chief accessories. I

5:52

mean, that's the thing we remember from him,

5:55

Chuck, I've told you not to dribble in the house,

5:58

all right, Dad. Do

6:02

we remember anything about him really? Well?

6:05

I think we remember that he disappeared. Yes,

6:07

But when that's the most memorable thing about you,

6:09

that sort of speaks to why they were

6:11

willing to get rid of him in the first place. Good

6:14

point, good, Well, do you think the fix was in for

6:16

him? Did it feel like vultures were circling over

6:18

him during those first two seasons? Well, I mean he started

6:20

getting less and less to do, and that was

6:22

a show that was obviously going through a lot of

6:25

behind the scenes transformations over those first couple

6:27

of years. Is that right? Yeah, Fonnzi's a relatively

6:29

minor character when you start watching the show. They

6:35

wouldn't even allow him to wear

6:37

the black leather jacket when he was on the motorcycle

6:40

because the network feared that he looked too much

6:42

like a hoodlum and the audience wouldn't want

6:44

to watch that. And once they decided to beef

6:46

up Fonzie's role, and you have shift it

6:48

from a single camp sitcom shot on film

6:51

to a multicam shot in front of an audience. Bye

6:54

Bye, Chuck. So I talked to Henry Winkler

6:56

and I asked him did Chuck have

6:58

to disappear? And here's what he

7:01

said. They did not have room

7:03

in the writing for the older

7:05

brother because the fawns became

7:08

the older brother. Everything

7:10

that you would go to the older brother for, Richie

7:13

went to the fawns for Yeah. I mean, if

7:15

you had to choose between who you were going to get advice

7:18

from about girls, about cars,

7:20

about being cool, about being anything, why

7:22

would you not go to Arthur Fonzarelli. All

7:24

right, now, this is en up girl. One time,

7:26

one time, Molly Line might not pick kiss

7:29

the fonds. That's a bogging at any right

7:32

right exactly, And so Gary Marshall,

7:34

the creator of Happy Days, it was obviously

7:36

great at what he did. So he makes

7:38

the calculation that if this character disappears,

7:40

the audience will be fine with it, something that

7:42

I asked Henry about. Only years

7:45

later did I ask Gary what

7:47

happened? And he explained to

7:49

me, Hey, what did he say? It was the

7:51

older brother and I didn't know how

7:53

to write for him, and then the right

7:56

for you, and we had to let him

7:58

go, and there was a terror. Well the thing

8:00

he went upstairs. He never a game down,

8:03

and Gary understood that the audience would accept

8:05

that. Gary understood television was

8:07

so well or well enough to

8:09

know that if you've got

8:11

this problem and you

8:14

write him out, you

8:16

don't make a big deal out

8:18

of getting rid of the character. It

8:20

will be like slime.

8:23

You can poke a hole in the slime and

8:26

it closes in on itself and

8:28

becomes whole again. So Alan

8:31

was Henry right about this. Mostly

8:33

obviously, people still brought it up. They bring it up

8:36

all the time, and especially whenever in the later

8:38

seasons Howard or Marion would

8:40

make a reference to their two children. In

8:42

the very last episode of the series, Joni

8:45

and Chachi get married, and Howard makes

8:47

a toast, you know, talking about all the happy

8:49

days that he and Marion have had, and he says, but

8:52

we've had the joy of raising two wonderful

8:54

kids. And I was nerdy

8:57

enough even at that age to say, what about

9:00

Chuck? I mean, harsh

9:02

Henry told me he gets asked all the time

9:04

about Chuck's fate. Oh a million times,

9:07

Hey, what happened to Chuck? Nobody

9:09

is really interested, and they just

9:12

love the question, do you know. I'm

9:15

so sorry, but it's true. Yeah,

9:17

No, no one actually cares about Chuck. It's

9:19

literally just the fact that they pretended he didn't

9:21

exist. I think if they'd said Chuck moved

9:24

away, Chuck goes to Seattle exactly,

9:26

he could have just become an offstage character that

9:28

they refer to occasionally. Yeah, I mean, you know,

9:30

not all families are so tight knit

9:33

that they're always around and always in each other's

9:35

business. You know. Even if Chuck didn't

9:37

never falling out, maybe he just had a full life of his own

9:39

far far away from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

9:42

So for Phonsie to live, Chuck had

9:44

to die. Yes, the sitcom

9:46

universe is even harsher than the Law and Order Criminal

9:48

Intent universe. Yeah, I mean, it's just like

9:50

because he's not even dead, He's no longer

9:53

in this reality. It's sad. Well,

9:56

Alan, as I'm sure you know, the Internet

9:59

is replete with theories about

10:01

what happened to Chuck, So of course I

10:03

had to run some of these by Henry confirm

10:05

or deny some of these widely circulated theories

10:08

among fans about what happened to Chuck Cunningham.

10:10

One he died in Vietnam. No,

10:13

still in his bedroom. Yes, this

10:16

is a serious one. Was gay and disowned by

10:18

his family because it was the nineteen fifties.

10:21

Oh no, I don't

10:23

think he would have been disowned by the Cunningham's.

10:25

I think that Missus C for

10:28

sure would have embraced

10:30

him. Would mister C really been okay

10:32

with that? Mister C was

10:34

very busy with hammers. Remember he

10:36

owned a hardware store that

10:39

was like always on the brink, right right,

10:41

okay, So he was otherwise occupied,

10:43

So Missus C would have handled this, okay.

10:46

Gary Marshall always told people that Chuck Cunningham

10:48

got a basketball scholarship in Mongolia.

10:51

That sounds really

10:53

right, And the sad truth is

10:55

I think we're all used to sort of pretending

10:58

that someone who has existed doesn't

11:00

exist anymore. Yep, yep, I

11:02

I've done that. Had

11:05

we go to a very dark place. But it's

11:07

true. We've all had an

11:09

older relative tell us, don't

11:11

talk about that person. That person doesn't

11:14

exist anymore. Yes, there's these family feuds

11:16

and suddenly we don't talk about this aunt anymore.

11:19

Yeah. I mean, Chuck could have done something really

11:21

awful. The Cunningham's are a very

11:23

decent, you know, apple pie kind of

11:25

family. Chuck could have been a deviant.

11:27

Oh. By the way, that last episode of

11:30

Jonie and Chocci getting married that led

11:32

to the spinoff, No, no, no, the spinoff was in the

11:34

middle of the show. It wasn't really Yes, they

11:36

left Happy Days for like maybe

11:38

half a year maybe more to go do Jonie

11:40

Loves Chocci, which is the worst theme song in the history

11:43

of television, right. I

11:50

actually liked Joni Loves Chocci. I always thought

11:52

there it would be fun. And there as yet another spinoff

11:54

where Jonie moves to the shore

11:56

and opens a little store where she sells

11:59

knick knacks and bobbles, and it would be called

12:01

Jonas I'm

12:05

so glad. I

12:08

love that you got it. You know what

12:11

ever gets it? Oh my god.

12:26

And now we take a moment to remember another

12:28

dearly departed sitcom character, Judy

12:31

Winslow, who spent four seasons

12:33

on the nineteen nineties hit sitcom Family

12:36

Matters. Family

12:39

Matters told a story of a working class

12:41

family in Chicago with three kids.

12:44

Judy was the youngest. Hi,

12:47

this is Jamie Foxworth, and most people might

12:49

know me as Judy Winslow from the television

12:51

show Family Matters. Jamie

12:54

Foxworth started playing Judy when

12:56

she was just a middle schooler. Judy

12:58

was the sassy little girl with a quick wit

13:00

and shark one liners what

13:04

I'm called and I'm Craig lessively.

13:08

But over time Jamie started

13:10

to notice that Judy wasn't being given

13:12

as much sass to throw around. I

13:15

was getting less and less screen time. And

13:17

it was always like Judy goes up

13:19

to her room, Like I would literally

13:22

be down, you know, in the live room

13:24

with everybody else, and I would say, okay, guys,

13:26

and the next thing you know, Judy's right up the steps,

13:29

just like the fawns in Happy Days. Family

13:32

Matters had found its star, a

13:34

pesky next door neighbor in suspenders

13:36

and thick, grimmed glasses speaker

13:39

the latter service. That's

13:41

right, Erkele, because his

13:43

unstoppable rise would mean the

13:46

sad decline of Judy Winslow.

13:50

Yes, you did, Erkele. It

13:53

was during the taping of what would be her final

13:55

episode that Jamie noticed people

13:57

acting strangely. I do remember

14:00

just the cast just coming up to me and like giving

14:02

me so much love and hugs and

14:04

affection, and I was like, what's going on here are you guys?

14:06

Like why is everybody acting so weird? She

14:09

remembers that Reginald vell Johnson,

14:11

who played her father on the show, was particularly

14:14

emotional. He was literally on

14:16

his knees and he was in tears, and I

14:18

just remember looking at him like, dude,

14:20

what is going on? On February

14:22

twenty six, nineteen ninety three, as

14:24

fans, well, remember Grandma Winslow

14:27

got married. Judy was a flower

14:29

girl. She walked down the aisle and

14:32

was never seen again. To

14:39

this day, everyone asked me the same question,

14:41

what happened to you? How could they just leave the daughter off?

14:43

And I'm like, hey, you gotta ask those

14:45

producers I don't. I don't know. I

14:47

think they thought that people would just forget,

14:50

and nobody forgot. The

14:52

character of Judy was survived

14:54

by her older brother and sister, her

14:57

mother and father rcle

15:08

Okay, as weird as a character disappearing

15:10

into the either, maybe there's another

15:12

occurrence which is equally disorienting,

15:16

an actor who suddenly disappears

15:18

replaced by another actor in the same

15:21

role. This first famously

15:23

happened on the nineteen sixties hit fantasy

15:25

sitcom Bewitched, when, after

15:27

five successful seasons, the show's

15:29

leading man underwent a casting change,

15:32

giving rise to what would become known in

15:34

TV lore as the

15:37

two Darren's. I

15:42

caught up with Lila Garrett, who wrote

15:44

for Bewitched and experienced the ripples

15:47

of the Darren effect firsthand.

15:50

Hi, I'm Lila Garrett, and I'm

15:52

a writer and a producer and a director.

15:55

Some people think of me as a legend.

15:57

I don't enjoy thinking of myself that way.

16:00

Lilah, I would say that you're a legend.

16:03

I know, I know it's a heavy

16:05

burden, but I'm willing to courage.

16:09

Lilah wrote for top scripted shows

16:11

like Get Smart and All in the Family

16:13

and the Lucy Show at a time when

16:15

women were rarely seen in a writer's room.

16:18

She's got two Emmys and a Writer's Guild Award

16:21

to show for it, but out of the more than thirty

16:23

shows she's written for, it's not hard

16:25

for her to name her favorite. There

16:27

is no show that I have ever

16:29

done that I enjoyed more than Bewitched, and

16:32

I enjoyed every minute of it. Bewitched

16:35

was a big hit in the nineteen sixties

16:37

into the nineteen seventies. It was about

16:39

a young, happy couple housewife Samantha

16:42

played by Elizabeth Montgomery and ad

16:44

executive husband Darren originally

16:46

played by Dick Yorke. The only

16:48

problem on their honeymoon night,

16:51

she tells him that there's something that she's kept

16:53

secret from him. She is a witch.

16:56

And rather than be excited about the possibility

16:59

of having this vitiful wife who can also perform

17:01

magic and do anything for him, Darren

17:04

Stevens decides that he you know, he's a

17:06

man, Gosh Darnett, and he does not want

17:08

his wife doing magic. And the eternal struggle

17:10

of the show is all these magical

17:12

hijinks happening in the background, much

17:15

to Darren's frustration, which means

17:17

that Darren Stevens character is essential. Yes,

17:20

because he is always exasperated by

17:22

what happens.

17:25

Yes, you've been sticking that magic nose

17:27

of yours where it doesn't belong. Again, don't write a deny

17:29

it all right, I won't come

17:31

on, Sam, don't make me. Greg and Audio just

17:36

Dick York was really good.

17:39

Yeah, he's very good to me. He's sort of Jim Carry

17:41

good. Yes, he's very expressive,

17:44

very just sort of a memorable vocal

17:47

comic, even to extent physical comic. He

17:50

had a great face. Yeah, I mean real

17:52

plastic. I would say a rubber face.

17:54

Rubber Yeah, it could go anywhere. You

17:56

know. Every expression of his was wonderful

17:58

and clear in this It's funny. His

18:01

responses to everything that was happening around

18:03

him drove a lot of comedy

18:05

on the show. Samantha, despite having

18:07

the magic powers, she's the straight man

18:10

on the show. He's the one having the fun

18:12

because he can't believe what's going on around him.

18:14

What a little favor I ask you to do? And

18:16

what do you do? You? We go that beak of yours

18:19

and really caused problem.

18:21

He was spectacular and

18:24

he was a spectacular man. As

18:27

great as he was in the role, Dick York

18:30

had a secret. Well. We first

18:33

noticed the problems with Dick

18:35

York Brilliant the second year. Suddenly

18:38

he couldn't make it for the show that we were

18:40

writing. And at first it just

18:42

seemed as though he may have had the flu and so on.

18:44

But when it became a habit, we

18:47

recognized that there was a real problem

18:49

there. Unultimately we found out what that problem

18:51

was. York

18:55

had sustained a serious back injury

18:57

on the set of the nineteen fifty nine Western.

18:59

They came to Cordura. Acting

19:02

became harder and harder for him, and

19:04

then practically intolerable some

19:07

scenes and Bewitched. He could only do sitting

19:09

or lying down. He took

19:12

medication to manage the pain and

19:14

ultimately became dependent. Dick

19:19

Yorke started missing shows so often

19:21

the writers had to create what they called non

19:24

Darren shows. On these episodes,

19:26

the writers would render Darren invisible

19:29

for most of the half hour, often

19:31

via witchcraft. With Darren

19:33

out of the picture, they leaned on Samantha's

19:36

colorful relatives to fill out

19:38

the episode. There was Uncle Arthur,

19:40

who was played by paul In one

19:42

of the world's greatest comics. One

19:44

morning, I shot a line in my pajamas,

19:47

Now what he was doing in my pa And

19:51

then there was and Dora played by Agnes

19:53

Moorehead. Darwood is already a practical

19:56

jew who was Samantha's

19:58

mischievous, kind of playfully

20:01

vicious mother. But there was only

20:04

so much slack the secondary characters

20:06

could pick up. Eventually, Dick

20:08

York was hospitalized and left the show.

20:11

So Dick York was gone. But what

20:14

to do about the character of Darren. She

20:16

can't divorce him. The whole structure of the show

20:19

is based on this marriage, So what are you gonna do? They

20:21

really can't get divorced because even years later,

20:23

when they wanted to make Mary Tyler Morris character

20:25

Mary Richards a divorced woman,

20:27

that alone was scandalous. Yeah, and you're

20:30

certainly not going to divorce a beloved couple

20:32

in the middle of the show. We couldn't possibly

20:34

kill off the first Darren because

20:37

he was part of the concept of the

20:39

show. This was a love affair. And

20:41

then someone who looked a lot like

20:44

Dick York was cast as

20:47

Darren, and that was Dick Sargeant. So

20:49

Dick Sargeant replaces Dick York and

20:52

they just acted like it was the same Darren the whole

20:54

time. But let's face it, you never

20:57

forget your first Darren. This

20:59

one wasn't the same, especially

21:02

his connection to Samantha. Honey,

21:05

You're beautiful, sweet, clever,

21:07

adorable, and I love you madly. It

21:11

works well, it doesn't work

21:13

on me, but I love you.

21:16

Did they lack chemistry? Elizabeth

21:18

Montgomery with the second Darren was Dick Sargeant.

21:20

Yes, I had to use the word lack, but

21:23

their chemistry was different. Chemistry

21:25

is chemistry. With

21:28

Dick Sargeant, you felt as though, oh,

21:31

let her use magic. Who cares? Darren

21:33

the first was in much more

21:35

agony and anxiety

21:38

than Darren the second. Just

21:40

listen to how the new Darren says his

21:42

wife's name. Now

21:46

listen to Darren classic. And

21:52

Dick Sargeant would have been more

21:54

appropriately cast

21:56

as ahead of a detective agency.

21:58

And he's a good actor, nothing wrong with him,

22:01

but he wasn't right for the part of Darren, and

22:03

that hurt the show. So did that change

22:06

what he had to do in the writer's room. Well,

22:08

we've got Darren number

22:10

two in less trouble because he

22:13

didn't handle it as vulnerably

22:16

as Darren number one did, and therefore

22:18

it wasn't fun, you know, and

22:21

he became more of an observer

22:23

than a participant. It never

22:26

captured the same magic. No

22:29

one ever denied that, and it did kind of shake

22:31

a slow up, and once again it

22:33

was that zany cast or secondary characters

22:35

to the rescue and Dora, Uncle

22:38

Arthur helping out here Alan doctor Bombay

22:40

played by Bernard Fox. Alice

22:42

Ghostly came in as as Morelda. There was a lot of

22:44

sort of ancillary magical characters

22:47

who had to pick up the slack that Dick Sargent was

22:49

leaving them. You could basically do anything

22:51

except stories about the Stevens marriage

22:54

because that ceased to be interesting almost

22:56

immediately after Dicky York left in. Dick Sargeant

22:59

came in. These were all great satellite characters,

23:01

but without that core. Yeah,

23:03

you know, it's like here's a bunch of great side dishes

23:06

that we now have to serve as your entree, I

23:09

mean, Sergeant's first season as Darren,

23:11

the show's ratings dropped from number

23:14

twelve to number twenty four. The

23:16

following season, it fell off

23:18

the ratings Cliff and was canceled.

23:22

This wouldn't be the first or last time

23:24

a major character had had a casting

23:26

change mid run. The

23:36

Darren handoff may be the most remembered

23:38

mid run casting change on a television

23:41

show, but this kind of thing has

23:43

happened on more than a few beloved

23:45

sitcoms. I mean, the

23:47

most famous one I think since then is

23:49

Aunt viv on The Fresh Prince of bel Air,

23:52

when Janet Hubert Whitten got replaced

23:54

by Daphne Maxwell read and I think

23:57

it was because she and Will Smith did not

23:59

get along. And then with Roseanne,

24:01

Yes, Roseanne, they replaced one Becky with another

24:03

because Licy Gorenson I think, wanted to go off to college,

24:06

and so Sarah Chalk came in and after

24:08

a certain point they were rotating back

24:10

and forth. After Gorenson started acting

24:12

again, and then on the revival, Gorenson's

24:15

playing Becky, but Sarah Chalk played another part right,

24:17

and they were very witty about it. Back in the nineties, we're

24:19

talking about the original run of Roseanne. There

24:22

was even a scene, I think, where they're watching

24:24

Bewitched and they're commenting

24:26

on the two different Darrens. Instead of making an

24:28

inside joke, a self referential joke. I

24:31

cannot believe that they replaced

24:33

that Darren. Well,

24:41

I like the second Darren much better. There

24:46

is something to learn from the

24:48

case of the two Darrens, right about how

24:51

a show really can be affected the whole show.

24:53

Yeah, and obviously I understand no one wanted

24:56

to stop the money train, but it did fundamentally

24:58

transform once they had

25:00

a lesser Darren come in and they had to

25:02

figure things out from there. Oh. By the way,

25:04

I remember a Curb Your Enthusiasm

25:07

episode where they're talking about the two

25:09

Darren's, and either Larry

25:11

or maybe Jerry Seinfeld was actually guesting on it said,

25:13

no one wants to be a second Darren. I'd forgotten

25:16

you mentioned that until now, isn't it when Larry

25:18

winds up having to replace Jason Alexander

25:20

is George when they're making the pilot with two Darren's.

25:23

Yeah, unbewitched. Nobody liked that second

25:25

Darren. I didn't care for the second day bought

25:28

it. That's right,

25:29

right, but it's true. I mean I feel

25:32

a little bit badly for the

25:35

dearly departed Dick Sargeant that he's

25:37

become. Um, what's the word

25:39

that he's defined that now that he's

25:41

that, he's yeah, anyway that he represents that.

25:44

Look, being the second Darren was very lucrative

25:46

for Dick's argent. You know, I'm sure he would

25:48

rather be that than to have not had a

25:50

primetime TV job for those

25:52

final seasons of a Witch. Well, that's a great point.

25:54

That's a great point. Being a second Darren is yeah,

25:57

is a lot better than not being a Darren at

25:59

all. There, thank you exactly. Can

26:02

you please embroider that on a pillow for me. I'll

26:04

work on it. For

26:08

all their differences, Dick York and

26:10

Dick Sargeant had something in common

26:13

beyond that role they played on TV. They

26:16

both led exemplary post

26:18

Darren lives. In nineteen

26:21

ninety one, Dick Sargeant, at age

26:23

sixty one, came out until

26:26

his death a year later, he advocated

26:28

for gay rights, with his friend and TV

26:31

wife, the wonderful Elizabeth Montgomery

26:34

right by his side. Dick

26:36

Yorke couldn't find much acting work after

26:38

Bewitched and ended up poor living

26:41

off of his pension check. All

26:43

the more remarkable then that he and

26:45

his wife Joan dedicated their remaining

26:48

years to helping the homeless by

26:50

collecting and handing out food, clothes,

26:53

and betting. Dick York

26:55

died on February twentieth, nineteen ninety

26:57

two. Less than two years later,

27:00

Dick Sargent died on July

27:02

eighth, nineteen ninety four. Two.

27:04

Darren's both pretty

27:07

good eggs. All

27:17

right, Allan, Now we're transitioning to a

27:19

whole other class of sitcom

27:21

death, the death of a character

27:24

as part of the plot, especially

27:26

jarring when that character is the

27:28

title character. Oh r I p

27:31

Valerie sweet

27:34

So Valerie Harper, beloved star, co

27:37

star of The Mary Tyler Moore Show, star of

27:39

Rhoda just beloved TV

27:41

icon. In the middle late eighties,

27:43

she had a comeback new family sitcom

27:46

called Valerie,

27:49

where she played the mom to three kids, one of them

27:52

played by Jason Bateman. The husband was an

27:54

airline pilot, so he wasn't around very much and

27:56

it was just here's you know, Valerie Harper

27:58

in the next phase of her career, sit Mom.

28:00

The show ran two seasons. At the end of the second

28:03

season, Valerie Harper said, Hey, I

28:05

would like more money. I'm not being paid enough. My

28:07

name is in the title. I feel I should be

28:09

compensated more, and instead the

28:11

studio said, no, we can do the show

28:13

without you. The audience seems to like the kids better

28:15

anyway, and so

28:18

rather than pay her what she wanted, they wrote

28:20

her out of the show. They killed off

28:22

the character. They brought in Sandy

28:24

Duncan as her husband's sister,

28:27

I think, to move in as sort

28:29

of the surrogate mom of the kids. The dad

28:31

was around slightly more, and for a season or two

28:33

they changed the title to Valerie's Family,

28:36

and then eventually it's a subtitle, yes, Valerie's

28:38

Family colin the Hogans, sort of like Twelfth

28:41

Night, What you Will or Rambo First Blood Party

28:43

title. Yes, And then within

28:45

a year or so it just became the Hogan

28:47

Family and references to their

28:50

late great mother went the way

28:52

of Chuck Cunningham. They completely disappeared.

28:54

So it was the Hogan Family, Nay,

28:57

Valerie's Family, the Hogans,

28:59

nay. Correct a lot of as

29:01

they say, iterations, why

29:03

is this so funny? It's just

29:06

again, because you can do death on certain

29:08

sitcom Certain shows are equipped for it

29:10

because they have kind of a level of gravitas,

29:13

or because they do the death in such a

29:15

ridiculous way like when Chuckles the clown

29:17

dies on the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Either

29:19

way, you can sort of work death into a sitcom field.

29:22

But this was a very light and silly and

29:24

superficial sitcom about family

29:26

life. And you know, am I going to get my driver's lightnse

29:28

or not? Am I going to have a date to the dance? And

29:31

suddenly mom is dead because

29:33

the actress had a salary dispute, And

29:35

it's injecting this really somber

29:37

tone into the show, which the show almost

29:40

immediately wants to make you forget

29:42

about because it's this unpleasant thing they've done

29:44

where they have to get rid of Valerie Harper because she was too

29:46

expensive. And you make a good point that the

29:49

form, the sitcom form, can sustain

29:52

death, I mean all in the

29:54

family. Yes, death is incredibly

29:56

moving. No, yeah, she's just puttering around

29:58

the bar and in the house and you don't know what's going on,

30:00

and then you realize at the end, no, Edith's gone.

30:03

It's amazing the right show

30:05

can pull it off. Cheers Frasier. Certain

30:07

sitcoms are built for it. This one

30:09

really wasn't, and wasn't even interested in

30:11

exploring it. So Sandy Duncan comes

30:14

on in the third season. In the first episode

30:16

of that season, they just make

30:19

very passing reference to the death of Valerie

30:21

in a car crash. Yes, Sandy Duncan

30:23

has moved in the Dad is getting ready

30:25

to go back, you know, flying airlines again, and

30:28

you know, life goes on. Oh well, Dad,

30:31

it's been six months since mom died, and I

30:33

think it's time you got back in the air. Besides,

30:35

we'll be fine. Yeah, I've got

30:38

it, Sandy done. So they don't spend

30:40

a lot of time morning hard and the father, who

30:42

was always sort of a secondary character, is going back

30:44

in the sky. Michael, you'll

30:46

be back in a week. It's

30:48

the first time I've left the boy since Bella's

30:50

automobile accident. I

30:53

know, keep done

30:55

a terrific job. I just think it's time

30:58

for everyone to get on with their lives. I

31:00

have to say I love Towards the

31:02

end of the episode, Sandy Duncan, who

31:04

is fabulous. She acknowledges

31:07

Valerie Harper's character, but barely.

31:10

I mean, let's just say it's not exactly moving. I

31:13

didn't make the decision to move here over nine. I

31:15

thought long and hard about it. So then

31:17

why did you for a lot

31:19

of reasons, my feelings for your father

31:22

and your mother and you kids

31:24

obligatory. But then that same

31:26

season, only two episodes later, the

31:28

family is rummaging through the attic when

31:31

something super unsitcommy happens.

31:35

She can't get your lamp to work,

31:37

mister wizard, couldn't get that lamp to work? Well,

31:41

let's go, Oh

31:46

no, the lamp is sparking,

31:48

and even that music is suddenly not sit

31:51

commy, Right, I think I think it's meant to be dramatic.

31:53

Right, it's got a little Laura More in there. Yeah,

31:56

they all head downstairs to bad until

31:59

the smell of smoke wakes Aunt Sandia and

32:05

now they're actually really having to act. Yes, and

32:09

now they're safely down on the front lawn

32:12

as their house burns to the ground. This

32:14

is very this is us And

32:20

after the commercial breakword back in sitcom

32:22

Land, how is your Jake? It's

32:26

kind of it's kind of a weird mashup, right, especially

32:29

when you consider that they've blown off Valerie's

32:31

death in the season premiere, right, and it's

32:33

and they're not even doing it in the episode.

32:36

Sort of in the aftermath of her death. They decide, all right, well

32:38

we're gonna do We're gonna come back at the start of

32:40

the season. She's been dead six

32:42

months, so we get to skip past the grief

32:44

because grief is messy and awkward and not

32:46

really what we do. And then a couple

32:48

of episodes later, oh, we'll burn down

32:51

the attic, which will let us redesign the sets

32:53

but also give Jason Bateman

32:55

a chance to play some grief. Now, it may

32:57

interest you to know that I have talked to

32:59

both Jason Bateman and Sandy Duncan

33:02

separately about the Valerie

33:04

situation, and they have the same

33:06

recollection and it's the wrong recollection

33:09

about how Valerie died. Really,

33:12

they burned her dead in the house,

33:14

and then they shot the episode

33:16

where we discover her and that

33:19

was odd for half hour sitcom.

33:21

But wait that she died in a house fire. Yeah,

33:23

and I'll fall apart crying. And it was a very

33:25

special two part mo. I was playing

33:28

the aunt and I moved in to

33:30

take care of the kids because I

33:33

love sitcom and they're so funny.

33:35

She burned down in a house, so

33:38

it was a fire that ended

33:40

that contract. They both think

33:43

that she got burned in a big old

33:45

house fire. Oh my god, Sandy

33:48

was shocked when I said no, she had

33:50

supposedly died in a car wreck. Here's

33:53

the interesting thing. You both remember the

33:55

original title character of the star Valerie

33:58

having died in a house fire. Yeah,

34:00

all right now, I don't want to burst your

34:02

bubble here, but she actually died in a car

34:04

crash. I don't know if she serious.

34:06

Yep, that is. You'd

34:09

just dig to the truth, don't you. I had

34:11

no idea, I swear. Do

34:13

you think actors are just learned so many

34:15

lines that they forget what they do?

34:17

Are we just not too bright? I

34:19

don't know. So, Sandy, here's

34:21

my question. To get Valerie off

34:23

the show? Did they have to have her character

34:26

die? Well? I think

34:28

because they had established this happy home

34:30

life and happy marriage, there wasn't

34:32

much of another way to exit her, do

34:35

you know what I mean? They wouldn't have gotten a divorce, They

34:37

didn't want her lying in a hospital with

34:39

some incurable disease. So I think

34:42

it was swift and to the point

34:44

and got over it and went on. They

34:46

had to kill her instantly instantly. It

34:49

does seem like there's a blurrier line between

34:52

comedies and traumas now so

34:54

that now it's not as jarring

34:57

or it can be treated in a more natural

35:00

And also because Valerie's family. I

35:02

mean, you know, by the way, when you watch about

35:04

it, I mean it's just a terrible show,

35:07

sure, but you know, Jason Bateman

35:09

was adorable and had great comic timing, so

35:12

that gets you eight seasons, right.

35:14

And Sandy Duncan, I mean was

35:16

terrific coming in. Yep. I mean she did

35:18

what she needed to do. Yeah, people love Sandy Duncan.

35:21

I think, you know, if you were predisposed to

35:23

watch that show because it was the Valerie Harper Show

35:25

and they were now killing off Valerie Harper, you

35:28

have to bring in someone who's supremely

35:30

likable to get away with it, and

35:32

Sandy Duncan definitely fits that. Bill. I'd

35:34

like to end this episode talking once again

35:36

about my own TV death on Law and Order.

35:39

I just want to point out that I

35:42

almost actually died in

35:44

that role, really not because

35:46

of the car crash, but because I was playing

35:48

a chain smoking gossip columnist and because

35:50

I'm a method actor, I prepared

35:52

for the role by smoking lots of filterless

35:55

cigarettes. And I mean lots, mind

35:57

you, I'd smoked a couple of cigarettes in my life.

36:00

I was a teenager, and that's it. So right

36:02

before one of my scenes, I began throwing up,

36:04

like truly projectile vomiting,

36:07

and I just want to thank all these years

36:09

later, I want to thank the crew

36:12

of Law and Order Criminal Intent, because

36:14

as I was hurling, I kept thinking,

36:16

all these people want to start

36:19

laughing right now, and they're not laughing, and

36:21

I wanted to just be able to say, like,

36:23

it's okay, you can laugh, because

36:26

this is a ridiculous situation. So

36:28

here's my question. If you know, God

36:30

forbid you had actually fallen to your

36:32

death because of the reaction

36:35

for the cigarettes, who would you have wanted to

36:37

play that role in your stead? Oh? My

36:39

god, Well, Sandy Duncan, of

36:45

course. I mean, come

36:48

on, I love Peter Pan, I love

36:50

wheat thins, I love Sandy

36:53

Dunk, love Run Scooby Doo. I love Run

36:55

Scooby Doo. So I definitely would have wanted

36:57

Sandy Duncan playing me. No, that's an excellent choice.

37:00

Alan

37:04

Steppenwall, thank you so much.

37:06

Mo my absolute pleasure. I

37:12

feel heaven

37:15

every moment. Next

37:38

time on Mobituaries, the

37:41

trailblazers whose paths were

37:43

somehow erased, the forgotten

37:46

forerunners. She's really

37:48

the Rosa Parks of New York, and most

37:50

New Yorkers, most Americans, have no

37:53

idea. How much does this historical

37:55

amnesia bother you? I mean, it's infuriating,

37:58

It's absolutely infuriating. I

38:02

certainly hope you enjoyed this mobid be

38:04

sure to rate and review our podcast. You

38:07

can also follow Mobituaries on Facebook

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38:13

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38:18

more great content and to watch my fiery

38:21

death on Law and Order Criminal Intent, please

38:23

go to mobituaries dot com.

38:26

This episode of Mobituaries was produced

38:29

by Kate mccauliffe. Our team

38:31

of producers also includes Gideon

38:33

Evans, Meghan Marcus, Meghan

38:35

Dietree, and me Morocca.

38:37

It was engineered by David Herman, indispensable

38:41

support from Genie Staneski, Kira

38:44

Wardlow, Richard Rohr, and

38:46

special thanks to Alan Seppenwall and

38:48

Dan Dzula. Our theme music

38:51

was written by Daniel Hart and

38:53

as always, undying thanks

38:55

to Rand Morrison and John carp

38:58

without whom Mobituaries couldn't

39:00

live. Hi,

39:18

It's mo. If you're enjoying Mobituaries

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