0:00

When one thinks of Italy, they can't help

0:02

but think of the fashion, the culture, the food,

0:04

the storied history, and of course, the shopping.

0:07

There is a new Italian lingerie brand who

0:09

recently partnered up with Jennifer Lopez that

0:11

is made with gorgeous fabrics, colorful silks,

0:14

and delicate lace.

0:15

But the name can be a bit challenging to pronounce.

0:19

Intimacy, inter- inter-missy?

0:21

Inter-mississippi? It's

0:24

Intimissimi, the art of Italian

0:26

lingerie. go to IntimisiMe.com

0:29

slash JLo. From the New

0:31

York Times, this is Modern Love. I'm

0:34

Anna Martin.

0:37

Love now and now. You're falling in love last

0:39

time I love you. Love is stronger than

0:42

anything you feel. I love, love. And

0:44

I love you more than anything. Love,

0:46

love. There's still love. Love.

0:49

Today, we have an essay about being

0:51

yourself when you're dating, which

0:53

is so hard to not show

0:56

off just to show up as you.

0:59

The essay is written by relationship expert Jay

1:01

Shetty. And this guy is kind

1:04

of having a moment. Please welcome to the Late Show,

1:06

Jay Shetty. Will Smith is a big fan. I know

1:09

Oprah's a big, big, big fan. Jay, you're amazing.

1:11

Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.

1:13

Jay Shetty! Jay Shetty! He's

1:17

the go-to life coach for over 50 million

1:19

followers. He's written books, he's

1:22

on a world tour, and this

1:24

is huge for me. he officiated

1:26

the wedding of J.Lo and

1:29

Ben Affleck.

1:30

On his podcast, Third question is

1:32

from Alana. Thank you for your question. He

1:34

answers burning love questions. I've been

1:36

ghosted recently for the first time. I

1:39

feel like I did something wrong. Whoa,

1:42

right? This is such

1:43

a common one for so many people. Now,

1:46

why do we need closure? Jay's advice is tailored

1:48

for the internet, but it's rooted in Hindu

1:51

philosophy.

1:52

Jay was a monk in India for three years

1:54

in his 20s, and that time gave him

1:56

insights into the way that anyone can

1:59

be more l-

2:00

more loving and more compassionate and more

2:02

monk-like, even if you've never been

2:04

to an ashram. Today,

2:06

we have Jay's modern love essay about

2:09

dating like a monk, and how

2:11

that led him to the love of his life.

2:15

Jay Shetty, so excited to have you on the show.

2:18

Welcome to Modern Love. Oh, thank you so much for

2:20

having me. I'm so grateful to be here. So,

2:23

Jay, you became a monk right after you

2:26

graduated university, is not

2:28

the traditional post-grad plan. How did

2:30

you make the choice to dedicate yourself

2:32

to this way of life?

2:34

So the first month I ever met was at

2:36

a college event. I used to go and hear speakers

2:39

and athletes and musicians and

2:41

thought leaders speak all the time. I

2:43

went there expecting very little and

2:46

thinking I didn't need anything that he

2:48

was going to share. But I walked out

2:50

of there with a newfound direction. He

2:53

was talking about how the greatest

2:55

gift in life or the greatest purpose is

2:58

to use our skills in the service of others.

3:01

Now when I look back, I realized that when I was 18, I'd

3:04

met people who were beautiful, I'd met people

3:06

who were rich,

3:07

but I don't think I'd met anyone who is truly

3:10

content and truly

3:12

self-aware, and he was all

3:15

of those things. And so I thought,

3:17

Well, I want those things. Those things seem

3:19

to be worthy of pursuit. So, you

3:22

know, for the next three to four years, I

3:24

still had relationships, I was still going out,

3:27

I was still doing anything that any person does

3:29

at college.

3:30

But I would spend my summer and

3:32

Christmas vacations, often visiting

3:35

his monastery in India. Oh,

3:36

wow. Okay. And I'd spend the other

3:38

half interning at financial

3:41

companies and corporations in London, thinking

3:44

that that's what I was going to do for work. And every

3:46

time I'd come back from the monastery, I'd

3:49

be full of joy and enthusiasm

3:52

and energy. And every time I finished my internship,

3:54

I think, I don't think that that's

3:56

what I'm meant to be doing. so I allowed myself

3:59

to live.

4:00

two separate lives because I was

4:02

just trying to learn and understand. I was very

4:04

young.

4:05

I even skipped my graduation ceremonies

4:07

because I was already in the monastery. Was

4:11

everyone in your life? How did

4:13

they react to that choice?

4:15

A lot of my friends were really confused.

4:18

They were just like, what are you doing? Everyone

4:20

was getting fancy jobs. My extended

4:23

family and community was actually quite negative.

4:25

They were saying things like, you're wasting

4:28

your life. You're never going to get a job again.

4:30

You're joining a cult.

4:31

Wow. What would you tell

4:33

them was so important about this way of life

4:36

that you needed to go dedicate

4:38

your existence

4:38

to it? Well, the two things that I

4:41

saw the monks in those summer and Christmas

4:43

vacations, what they dedicated

4:45

their life to was self-mastery

4:49

and service. And when I talk about

4:51

self-mastery, I mean understanding

4:53

ego, understanding envy, understanding

4:55

what our emotions are trying to tell

4:58

us and how to respond to them. And

5:00

the other half was service, that they were

5:02

living their life trying to

5:05

build sustainable villages or food distribution

5:07

programs to help the poor or disadvantaged

5:10

children. And I saw them living their

5:12

life in a way trying to positively

5:14

impact others. And I thought, that's what I

5:16

want to dedicate my life to, is figuring

5:19

out what's going on inside of me, and then

5:22

help people figure out what's going on outside.

5:24

You became a monk in your

5:27

20s when most people are going

5:29

out and flirting and going on dates.

5:32

And your modern love essay kind of begins

5:34

with you listing out what your priorities

5:36

were when you were a monk. Can you read

5:39

that part of your essay for me?

5:41

Yes, absolutely. So

5:45

monks are famously celibate,

5:48

but celibacy doesn't just mean you're not

5:50

having sex. It

5:53

means you're not interacting with other people in

5:55

a way that could be considered romantic.

5:59

The Sanskrit word for monk,

6:01

brahmacharya, means

6:03

the right use of energy. It's

6:07

not that romance and sexual energy are wrong,

6:11

but my practice teaches that we all have

6:13

a limited amount of energy which

6:15

can be directed in multiple directions

6:18

or one.

6:22

And when energy is scattered, it's

6:24

difficult to create momentum or

6:26

impact.

6:34

You mentioned that these monks that you saw, who you

6:36

so admired and were learning from, have this

6:38

method of self-mastery. Can

6:41

you tell me what you learned about that

6:44

method of subduing the ego

6:46

over those three years? Yeah,

6:48

so from a more general standpoint,

6:51

I'd say that when you're living with

6:54

a group of men in an ashram,

6:57

every single person is a mirror

6:59

for your ego because you're

7:02

having so many interactions daily that

7:04

trigger you.

7:05

What do you mean triggered like you have a difficult

7:08

conversation or something? Yeah, it could

7:10

be a difficult conversation. It could be

7:12

that

7:13

someone didn't save food for you when you

7:15

were late to lunch or breakfast, right?

7:18

that you weren't selected to give a class

7:21

this morning and someone else was, and

7:23

you start noticing very worldly

7:25

responses to spiritual

7:27

tasks. And you realize that just being in an ashram

7:30

doesn't remove your ego. So

7:34

I'd say that some of the practices that really helped

7:36

were the practices of

7:39

recognizing that everyone was a teacher

7:41

and a student at the same time. This

7:44

is something that was one of my favorite

7:46

moments actually. I was

7:48

with my monk teacher and and he's

7:50

in his 60s or 70s at the

7:52

time and I'm a young

7:55

new monk and

7:57

every morning

8:00

i would bow down to him which was our

8:02

cost him and he

8:04

would bow down again

8:07

back to me and i would always

8:09

think how special that was because

8:12

there was this mutual

8:13

respect and

8:15

i think that practice was really beautiful because

8:17

you realize that you never at the top and you

8:19

never at the bottom he he

8:21

what i want to talk about your

8:23

decision to leave dash rom after

8:25

three years how did you make that call

8:28

so

8:28

it was the most difficult decision i

8:30

made at the time it communal living was

8:32

really tough on my body it have the my health

8:35

i would get sick more often in the ashram

8:37

you know you living in rooms from sometimes thirty

8:40

to one hundred people and

8:42

so there was a a physical health

8:44

component and then there was this deeper

8:46

realization that i

8:48

loved what i was learning but all

8:50

i dreamt about and thought about was how

8:52

could i shared this with other people because i

8:54

know so many of my friends are dealing with this but

8:57

they're not going to come here but i really feel

8:59

the desire to share it with them and

9:02

i

9:02

want to do that and so they were these to

9:05

self

9:05

awareness pieces which led me to

9:07

realize i wasn't a can i think that's

9:09

almost like realizing that you told

9:11

someone you love them but now you're falling

9:14

out of love with them or you realize you're not in lot

9:16

of any more like that's how it felt

9:18

did you talk to your teachers at all when

9:20

you were thinking about making this hard

9:22

decision to leave the ashram i

9:24

did i did and i was even scared

9:26

to talk to them about it because i

9:28

didn't want to feel judged or you know you

9:30

don't was dropping out and you think what are your teachers

9:32

gonna say right and my

9:35

teacher said to me when i told him that

9:37

i think i should leave he said to me that

9:39

some people go

9:41

to college and some of them become

9:43

professes at he said some

9:46

of them leave after their degree and

9:48

they become

9:49

entrepreneurs

9:50

are they work at a company and he said

9:52

which one's better the people who become professors are

9:54

the people who leave and i said

9:56

i'd neither i'm in whatever is right

9:58

for the person and he said, well, that's the same

10:01

here. He said, some people come and they

10:03

graduate to become monks and they stay here for many

10:05

years. And some take their

10:07

training like you did and leave and go on to do

10:09

wonderful things. And he said, I think you'll

10:11

be very happy if you're sharing what you've learned. And

10:13

so you should do that. And so there was this really like

10:16

understanding, totally open

10:18

view of no, maybe it's not right for you anymore.

10:21

It was right for you then and not anymore. And there's nothing

10:23

wrong with that. in

10:25

your decision to leave them, they had compassion

10:28

for you, which is really beautiful.

10:30

Exactly. That time was extremely

10:33

tough for me and it wasn't

10:35

even a happy decision. And it

10:38

was even more depressing because when I came back, everyone

10:41

was like, Oh, we told you so. Oh,

10:43

you came back. Oh, you failed

10:44

being a monk. And

10:46

then, you know, I was applying for jobs

10:48

and 40 companies rejected

10:50

me without an interview. And I was thinking,

10:52

Oh, God. your resume had ashram for

10:54

three years on it and nothing else. Yeah.

10:56

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, what are your transferable

10:59

skills? Sitting star silent and being still

11:01

like no one wants that in their company. And

11:03

so it was it was just

11:05

almost like maybe everyone was right. And

11:07

maybe I did just waste three years. Yeah.

11:10

Really difficult time. When you came

11:12

back to London, you know, like in a

11:15

science fiction movie or something, when people are frozen

11:17

in those little pods and then they get released after

11:19

thousands of years and they're like, what is a cell

11:22

phone? Was it like that for you? When

11:24

you came back to London, did you not recognize

11:26

anything around you?

11:28

The hardest part is having

11:31

to do small talk when you've done no small

11:33

talk for three years. Right? You've not

11:35

had a conversation about the latest TV show

11:38

or the latest movie.

11:39

Have you heard about self mastery? And they'd be like,

11:41

what? That's exactly

11:43

it. That must have been really

11:46

awkward as you started to get

11:48

back into dating, too.

11:50

What was that

11:51

part of it like? Like building a social life, dating

11:54

again?

11:55

I didn't really think about dating overall

11:58

as I kind of.

12:00

I guess I was a bit scared, but

12:01

I didn't even think about it that way. But I

12:04

definitely like forgotten how to flirt.

12:07

But when I started

12:09

talking to my now wife,

12:11

because she was really good friends with

12:13

my sister and she'd be over

12:15

at our place and

12:17

I'd be talking to her, I only really knew

12:19

how to have really thoughtful, vulnerable,

12:22

deep conversation. I

12:24

do remember that she was always very inquisitive.

12:27

And so that was kind of helpful for me to just totally

12:30

be myself. That kind of made it easy

12:32

for me to be around her, I guess, because it

12:35

wasn't someone that I had to be someone I wasn't around.

12:43

After the break, Jay

12:46

Shetty goes on a date after leaving the ashram.

12:49

And it does not go well.

12:52

next.

13:02

When one thinks of Italy, they can't help but

13:04

think of the fashion, the culture, the food,

13:07

the storied history, and of course, the shopping.

13:10

There is a new Italian lingerie brand who

13:12

recently partnered up with Jennifer Lopez that

13:14

is made with gorgeous fabrics, colorful silks,

13:16

and delicate lace.

13:18

the name can be a bit challenging to pronounce.

13:21

Intimacy. Inter- inter-missy?

13:24

Inter-mississippi? It's

13:27

Intimissimi, the art of Italian

13:29

lingerie. Go to Intimissimi.com

13:32

slash JLo. Hi,

13:34

this is Lori Liebovich, editor of Well at

13:36

the New York Times. There's a

13:38

lot of misinformation in the health and wellness

13:40

space, but at the New York Times, no

13:42

matter what the topic, We apply

13:44

the same journalistic standards to

13:47

everything we write about,

13:48

whether it's the gut microbiome

13:51

or how to get a good night's sleep. Even

13:53

if we're talking about something like, is it

13:55

bad for me to drink coffee on an empty stomach?

13:58

Everything that our readers get...

14:00

when they dig into a well article

14:02

has been vetted. Our reporters are

14:04

consulting experts, calling dozens

14:06

of people, doing the research. It

14:09

can go on for months so that you

14:11

can make great decisions about your physical

14:13

health and your mental health. We take

14:16

our reporting extra seriously because

14:18

we know New York Times subscribers are

14:20

counting on us. If you already subscribe,

14:23

Thank you. If you'd like to subscribe

14:25

go to nytimes.com slash

14:27

subscribe

14:43

So Jay you've left the ashram you're

14:46

back living in London trying to

14:48

return to a normal life you're working you're

14:51

starting to date and Eventually,

14:53

you go on a date with Roddy, who is now your

14:55

wife. Can you read the part of your essay

14:58

where you talk about your first date with her?

15:00

Absolutely. The

15:03

night was going to cost me nearly a week's

15:06

income and I wanted it to be perfect.

15:09

We were at Locanda Locatelli, one

15:11

of the best restaurants in London. When

15:14

we slid into a buttery leather booth, I

15:17

winced.

15:18

She was vegan and vegans

15:20

aren't known to appreciate leather boots.

15:22

But

15:24

the lights were low, the ambiance

15:26

beautiful, and I was still

15:28

hoping to hear how impressed she was. Do

15:31

you think they have anything vegan on the menu?

15:34

She said, sounding more

15:36

worried than excited. They're

15:38

famous for their fresh pasta, I said,

15:40

trying to sound optimistic.

15:43

But I had signed this up for a special tasting

15:45

menu, and I didn't know

15:47

how much choice she would have. "'Fresh

15:51

pasta usually has eggs,' she

15:53

said. But we'll see."

15:56

"'The service is amazing, right?' I

15:59

said.

16:00

She smiled politely, but she

16:02

wasn't eating much.

16:05

After dinner, I drove her home and dropped

16:07

her off outside her apartment. She

16:10

thanked me and waved a friendly goodbye,

16:13

but the evening had fallen flat. Clearly,

16:17

I had no idea what I was doing.

16:21

Oh. I'm feeling

16:23

for you, Jay, in this moment. Oh,

16:26

my gosh. Why do you think it was so

16:29

easy for you to slip back into this

16:31

sort of un-monk-like mode

16:33

of trying to impress Roddy?

16:35

Like, what is it about dating

16:38

someone that made you slip back

16:40

to the old way of life? I think

16:42

we're so unaware and we underestimate

16:46

how strongly our

16:48

conditioning and wiring leads

16:50

our life. Since I was young, I

16:53

saw the dates that movies had in rom-coms.

16:56

I had done those dates with partners in my

16:58

teens and college life, and so you assume

17:01

that I just have to keep repeating this cycle

17:04

until it goes wrong. And I think we don't realize how

17:07

many cycles and how many patterns we live in until

17:09

we start to break them. And

17:11

it was only later that I figured out that my wife's

17:14

favorite thing to do, she said to me my ideal date

17:17

would be going

17:19

to Tesco's and walking down the bread aisle.

17:21

Tesco's is England's Whole Foods.

17:24

And I think that she was

17:26

speaking more from a kind

17:28

of funny tongue in cheek in

17:30

terms of, hey, I'm simple, I just

17:33

want to walk down an aisle at a grocery store

17:35

and pick something up to eat. We don't need to go to a fancy

17:37

restaurant. And I thought that that was refreshing

17:40

and beautiful because it showed me

17:42

that she didn't value those things.

17:45

How long did it take you to sort

17:47

of relax into yourself with Roddy? And

17:49

what did it take to do that?

17:52

Well, I think it was, I give the credit to

17:54

her because she was so

17:57

good at not trying to impress someone back?

17:59

Hmm.

18:00

And I don't know, Radhi's just a

18:02

special human being. She's just like, she's

18:04

so different and weird in a good

18:07

way. I dedicated my first book to

18:09

her and I wrote the dedication

18:11

to my wife, who's more

18:13

monk than I'll ever be. I

18:15

just think that a lot of the qualities I

18:17

learned during my time as a monk, Radhi

18:20

had them quite naturally.

18:23

I look for monk qualities in everyone I meet

18:25

and I believe everyone, whether they've been a monk or not have

18:27

them, But monk life really helps

18:29

us consciously train them and build them

18:31

and develop them as well.

18:33

Yeah. I'm struck by when you said that she was

18:35

even though it was a bit of a joke, like I just want

18:37

to walk down the bread aisle. That sort of simple,

18:40

pure way of connecting does feel

18:43

very monk like of her. I mean, it sounds like you were picking

18:45

up on these sort of monk

18:47

like qualities in her even early

18:49

on. I think that is well, but

18:52

I think another

18:52

thing that just came to mind is Radhi would always

18:54

say, oh, I want you to come and spend time with my

18:56

family. my family's really important to me. I

18:59

remember when I first started

19:01

hanging out at her house, her family would often

19:03

look at him and be like, are you really going to wear that when he comes

19:06

over? Because she'd just be in sweats or whatever. And

19:08

she'd be like, yeah, that is what I'm going to wear, because

19:10

that's what I would wear if I was at the house. And

19:13

so she had this really like honest,

19:15

vulnerable, open way of being from the beginning.

19:17

And I think that

19:20

was definitely monk-like as well, to just say, yeah,

19:22

this is who I am and this is how we'll be.

19:25

And it's part of your practice

19:27

now to try

19:29

to develop or even hone those

19:31

monk qualities in other people,

19:34

correct? That's your books and your podcast that's sort

19:36

of about sort of training folks who

19:38

haven't spent years in ashram to

19:41

exhibit these qualities in their own life.

19:44

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

19:46

The literatures that I studied during my time as a

19:48

monk really laid out

19:50

the four stages of life

19:52

almost as four classrooms

19:55

of love. So the four stages of

19:57

life are considered life in

19:59

solitude.

20:00

or monk life or single life. The

20:02

second stage is relationship

20:04

life or married life. The third

20:07

stage of life is almost reflecting

20:10

and thinking about what you want to do

20:12

next. And then the fourth stage of life is loving

20:15

the world. And the monks

20:17

believe that the most important love story

20:19

is the love story you have with anyone and everyone and

20:21

with the world. I think

20:23

so often we've built up this idea

20:25

in society that the most important

20:28

love is your romantic love story.

20:31

So many people

20:32

either go through life single and think that they're

20:34

unworthy of love because they don't have

20:37

a romantic partner or

20:39

someone loses their romantic partner and

20:41

then they feel like they don't have any love

20:43

in their life. But the love

20:46

of a brother, a sister, a mother, a father,

20:48

all of these loves count. We

20:50

can't say that romantic love is above

20:53

or below any of these.

20:54

Jay, of those four steps,

20:58

what stage do you think you're in? I

21:01

would say that I probably

21:04

have a bit of a glimpse into all of them. Wow, okay.

21:08

Probably

21:08

a step two, practicing to love

21:10

my wife and the people around me, but I have

21:12

a glimpse into step three and four because

21:15

step three requires a lot of healing, to

21:17

protect love within

21:19

yourself. And then stage four is

21:21

where I want to live every day, which is I want to love

21:23

everyone and I want to share love with everyone on the planet

21:26

and I want to be able to spread love across

21:28

the world.

21:28

Well, you are on a world tour, so I'd say

21:30

you're pretty far on your way to step four. I guess. I

21:34

think I'm

21:35

definitely, that's why I said

21:37

glimpses because when I'm with

21:39

my teachers, I see how they live in that space

21:42

and I see how I just have a little peak and

21:44

that's good enough to prove to me it's real.

21:47

And so I feel

21:49

grateful that there's more to learn though. I'm not upset,

21:51

I'm not there. I'm happy that I know

21:53

where I have to go. Hmmm.

21:56

All I'm trying to give people is I don't want anyone to

21:58

feel shame or guilt for how the current

22:00

I want you to feel clarity

22:02

and curiosity about where you still have to go.

22:06

Hmm. Jay

22:07

Shetty, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank

22:09

you for having me. So grateful and appreciate

22:12

your time and energy.

22:23

Modern Love is produced by Julia Botero,

22:25

Christina Josie, and Hans Buto.

22:28

It's edited by Sarah Saracen. Our

22:31

executive producer is Jen Poiant. This

22:34

episode was mixed by Marion Lozano. Our show

22:36

was recorded by Maddie Masiello. The

22:39

Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original

22:42

music in this episode by Marion Lozano

22:44

and Rowan Nemestow.

22:46

Digital production by Mahima Chablani and

22:48

Nell Gologli. Special thanks to

22:50

Jay Shetty's team, Nicole Berg and

22:52

Annie Gingold. The Modern

22:55

Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia

22:57

Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

23:01

I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.