0:00

In celebration of the Trinity Collection's

0:02

100th anniversary, this forecast is supported

0:05

by Cartier. From

0:13

the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This

0:15

is Modern Love. Today

0:18

I'm talking to the most famous

0:21

couples therapist in the world, Astaire

0:24

Perrell. Astaire's

0:26

books, Mating in Captivity and State

0:28

of Affairs, have forced so many

0:30

of us, myself included, to rethink

0:32

our assumptions about love. Like,

0:35

maybe it's unrealistic to expect the passion

0:37

and fire we feel at the beginning

0:39

of a relationship to last forever. And

0:42

when one partner cheats on the other, what if

0:44

it could actually bring the couple closer, instead

0:46

of tearing them apart? On

0:49

her podcast, Where Should We Begin, Astaire

0:51

lets us eavesdrop on sessions with real

0:53

couples. People come to her

0:55

with impossible problems, and she somehow guides

0:58

them to a breakthrough. She

1:00

gives them hope. When

1:02

I listen to Astaire's podcast, I

1:04

feel like I'm getting a free therapy session. So

1:07

I wasn't surprised in the slightest when

1:09

she told me that people come up

1:11

to her in public all the time

1:13

and ask her deeply personal questions. The

1:15

grocery store is one place, but airplanes

1:17

is even better. Oh, no, Astaire. If

1:20

I were you, I'd be really scared

1:22

to fall. They're

1:24

suspended in the air, and they tell you

1:26

lots of things. And

1:29

it is often about, can trust

1:31

be repaired when it's been broken? Can

1:35

you bring a spark back when it's gone?

1:38

Can you rekindle desire when it's been

1:40

dormant for so long? What

1:42

do you do when you're angry at yourself for

1:44

having stayed when you think you should have left?

1:47

Or what do you do when you're angry at

1:49

yourself when you've left and now you think you

1:51

should have stayed? You're like, I'm just at the

1:53

grocery store, man. Like, I need to check out.

1:56

Yes. Clearly,

1:59

people. are struggling so much

2:01

to be happy in long-term relationships that

2:04

they're cornering this woman basically everywhere she goes.

2:07

And these things people ask Esther about,

2:09

they're exactly the kinds of high-stakes, make-or-break

2:11

questions that come up in the essay

2:13

she chose for our show today. It's

2:16

called What Sleeping with Married

2:18

Men Taught Me About Infidelity by

2:20

Karen Jones. Karen's essay was

2:23

one of the most controversial pieces ever published

2:25

in the history of the Modern Love column.

2:28

But when it comes to talking about sex and

2:30

relationships, nothing is too taboo

2:32

for Esther. Esther

2:37

Perreault, welcome to Modern Love. It's

2:40

a pleasure to be here. So

2:42

you're gonna read Karen Jones's Modern Love

2:44

essay. We're gonna talk all about infidelity.

2:46

But before we get into that,

2:48

I learned something about you that I need to

2:50

know more about. You are

2:52

fluent in nine languages and

2:55

you conduct therapy in seven of them. Is

2:57

that true? Yes. So

3:00

I grew up in Belgium, in the

3:02

Flemish part of Belgium, and I was

3:04

educated in Flemish for 12 years. But

3:07

we also spoke French and German

3:10

and Polish and Yiddish at

3:12

home. Wow. So we had five

3:15

languages in the house and

3:17

then I studied Spanish, Portuguese, Hebrew,

3:20

and English. That comes

3:22

to nine. Would you ever do

3:24

one more just to bring it to a

3:26

solid ten? I always wanted to study

3:28

Arabic. Okay, in your free time,

3:30

in your ample free time. One day. Are

3:33

there certain languages that have better vocabulary

3:35

for talking about the nuances of love

3:37

and relationships than others? That

3:41

is a very difficult question to

3:43

answer because my love language, the

3:45

language in which I learned poetry,

3:48

songs, novels, etc., was primarily

3:50

French. And so of course

3:52

I would say French. But

3:55

that may be because I was inducted in

3:57

it rather than the language itself. What

4:00

I can say is that certain cultures

4:03

are more fluent in

4:06

the language of feelings, love,

4:09

relationships, and desire and

4:11

sexuality than maybe

4:14

English or Anglo cultures that

4:16

are more pragmatic, more practical.

4:18

I think in therapy

4:20

sometimes I find that there is a

4:23

certain culture that allow me to speak

4:25

differently about death, differently

4:27

about the relationship of the

4:29

individual to the collective. What

4:32

I will say is this, in a therapy

4:34

session, if a person tells me

4:36

something and it

4:38

needs to be said in his own language, I

4:40

will ask them to translate it and to

4:43

say it in their mother

4:45

tongue because

4:47

you hear instantly the

4:50

difference, the tone, the timbre, the tremble,

4:52

and I know it. It's like I

4:54

don't even have to understand what they're

4:56

saying. I know that

4:58

there is an authenticity and a

5:01

truth to it that is very different. Sometimes

5:03

afterwards I said, what did you say? But

5:05

sometimes I don't even need to. I

5:08

know when they say, I feel alone,

5:10

I ache for you, I miss you,

5:13

where have you gone, I can't forget you. You

5:15

don't really need to understand

5:18

the words, to understand the

5:20

effect. Esther, the

5:22

Modern Love Essay you're going to read for

5:25

us today tackles a topic that I bet

5:27

is very hard to talk about in almost

5:29

any language. It's called

5:31

What Sleeping with Married Men

5:33

Taught Me About Infidelity by

5:35

Karen Jones. The author

5:38

Karen is recently divorced and she

5:40

becomes the other woman to several

5:42

men. When I

5:44

read that title, I kind

5:46

of expect this story is going to be about

5:48

all the sex she's having or the secrets or

5:50

how they're hiding it, but you've

5:52

worked with so many couples who are in

5:55

the throes of dealing with cheating. So what is the

5:58

word in the book? It's called What Sleeping with Married Men Taught Me About infidelity

6:00

signal to you. You know, I wrote

6:03

a book about infidelity. So I

6:06

would say that one of my attempts in

6:08

writing this book was to

6:11

translate in writing the

6:14

complexity of this experience

6:16

that can be so shattering,

6:19

that can fracture family and

6:21

an entire legacy.

6:25

It needs more than

6:27

just good, bad, victim,

6:29

perpetrator, villain, saint, that

6:31

there's too much happening and for too

6:33

many people that are

6:35

involved to try to reduce it. Infidelity

6:39

is often about a lot of things,

6:41

but sex. It's

6:43

about betrayal. It's about violation of

6:46

trust. It's about lying. It's about

6:48

duplicity. It's about deception. And

6:50

sex is a piece of this, but

6:52

that is not necessarily the only thing.

6:54

Oof, Esther, I am so excited

6:57

to hear you read this. Whenever you're ready.

7:01

Okay. What Sleeping with Married Men Taught

7:03

Me About Infidelity by Karen

7:05

Jones. I'm

7:14

not sure it's possible to justify my

7:16

liaison with married men, but

7:19

what I learned from having them warrants

7:21

discussion. Not

7:23

between the wife and me, though I would

7:25

be interested to hear their side. No,

7:28

this discussion should happen between wives

7:30

and husbands annually, the way we

7:33

inspect the tire tread on the

7:35

family car to avoid accidents. A

7:40

few years ago, while living in London,

7:42

I dated married men for companionship while

7:44

I processed the grief of being newly

7:47

divorced. And

7:50

I created a profile on Tinder and

7:52

on OKCupid saying I was looking for

7:55

no strings attached and counters. Plenty

7:57

of single men messaged me and I got

7:59

together. with several of them. But

8:03

many married men messaged me too. After being

8:06

married for 23 years,

8:08

I wanted sex but not a

8:11

relationship. This is dicey

8:13

because you can't always control emotional

8:15

attachments when body chemicals mix. But

8:19

with the married men, I guess that

8:21

the fact that they had wives, children

8:23

and mortgages would keep them from going

8:25

overboard with their affections. And

8:28

I was right. They didn't

8:30

get overly attached and neither did I. We were safe

8:33

bets for each other. I was careful about the men

8:35

I met. I wanted to make

8:44

sure they had no interest in leaving

8:46

their wives or otherwise threatening all they

8:49

had built together. In

8:51

a couple of cases, the men I

8:53

met were married to women who had

8:55

become disabled and could no longer be

8:57

sexual, but the husbands remained devoted to

8:59

them. All

9:02

told, I communicated with maybe a dozen

9:04

men during that time in my life.

9:07

I had sex with fewer than half. Others

9:10

I texted or talked with, which

9:12

sometimes felt nearly as intimate. Before

9:16

I met each man, I would ask, why

9:18

are you doing this? I

9:20

wanted assurance that all he desired

9:22

was sex. What

9:25

surprised me was that these husbands

9:27

weren't looking to have more sex.

9:30

They were looking to have any sex. I

9:32

met one man whose wife had implicitly consented

9:39

to her husband having a lover because

9:41

she was no longer interested in sex

9:43

at all. They both to some degree

9:45

got what they needed without having to

9:47

give up what they wanted. But the

9:50

other husbands I met would have preferred

9:53

to be having sex with their wives

9:55

and for whatever reason that wasn't happening.

10:00

I know what it feels like to go off sex,

10:02

and I know what it's like to want more than

10:04

my partner. It's also a tall

10:06

order to have sex with the same

10:08

person for more years than our ancestors

10:10

ever hoped to live. Then,

10:13

at menopause, a woman's hormones suddenly

10:15

drop and her desire can wane.

10:19

At 49, I was just about there

10:21

myself and terrified of losing my desire

10:23

for sex. Men

10:26

don't have this drastic change, so we

10:28

have an imbalance, an

10:30

elephant-sized problem so burdensome and

10:32

shameful we can scarcely muster

10:35

the strength to talk about it. If

10:41

you read the work of Esther Pirel, the

10:43

author of the book State of Affairs, you'll

10:46

learn that for many wives, sex outside of

10:48

marriage is their way of breaking free from

10:50

being the responsible spouses and mothers they have

10:52

to be at home. Married

10:55

sex for them often feels

10:57

obligatory. An affair

10:59

is adventure. Meanwhile,

11:03

the husbands I spent time with would

11:05

have been fine with obligatory sex. For

11:07

them, adventure was not the main reason

11:10

for their adultery. The

11:13

first time I saw my favorite married

11:16

man pick up his pint of beer,

11:18

the sleeve of his well-tailored suit pulled

11:20

back from his wrist to reveal a

11:22

geometric kaleidoscope of tattoos. He

11:26

was clean-shaven and well-mannered with a

11:28

little rebel yell underneath. The

11:31

night I saw the full canvas of

11:33

his tattoo masterpiece, we

11:36

drank Prosecco, listened to 80s music,

11:38

and yes, hit sex. We

11:42

also talked. I

11:45

asked him, what if you said

11:47

to your wife, look, I love you and

11:49

the kids, but I need sex in my

11:51

life. Can I just have

11:53

the occasional fling or a casual affair?

11:57

He sighed. If I asked her that

11:59

case, she would say, kind of question, it would kill her,

12:01

he said. So

12:04

you don't want to hurt her, but you

12:06

lie to her instead? Personally, I'd rather know,

12:09

I said. It's

12:12

not necessarily a lie if you don't

12:14

confess the truth. It's kinder to stay

12:16

silent, he said. I'm

12:18

just saying I couldn't do that. I

12:21

don't want to be afraid of talking honestly about

12:23

my sex life with the man I'm married to.

12:25

And that includes being able to at

12:27

least raise the subject of sex outside

12:30

of marriage, I said. Good

12:33

luck with that, he said. I

12:39

never convinced any husband that he could be

12:41

honest about what he was doing. But

12:44

they were mostly good natured about it,

12:46

like a patient father responding to a

12:48

child who keeps asking, why? Why?

12:52

Why? Maybe

12:54

I was being too pragmatic about the

12:56

issues that are loaded with guilt, resentment,

12:59

and fear. After all, it's

13:01

far easier to talk theoretically about marriage

13:03

than to navigate it. But

13:06

my attitude is that if my spouse were

13:08

to need something I couldn't give him, I

13:10

wouldn't keep him from getting it elsewhere, as

13:13

long as he did so in a way

13:15

that didn't endanger our family. I

13:18

suppose I would hope his needs would

13:20

involve fishing trips or beers with friends,

13:22

but sex is basic. Physical

13:25

intimacy with other human beings is

13:27

essential to our health and well-being.

13:30

So how do we deny such a need to the

13:32

one that we care about most? If

13:35

our primary relationship nourishes and

13:37

stabilizes us but lacks intimacy,

13:39

we shouldn't have to destroy

13:41

our marriage to get that

13:43

intimacy somewhere else. Should

13:46

we? I

13:49

didn't have a full-on affair with a tattooed

13:51

husband. We slept together maybe

13:53

four times over a few years. More

13:56

often, we talked on the phone. After

13:59

our second time, I was in the hospital. night together though, I could

14:01

tell this was about more than sex for

14:03

him. He was desperate for

14:05

affection. He

14:08

said he wanted to be close to his

14:10

wife but couldn't because they were unable to

14:12

get past their fundamental disconnect. Lack

14:15

of sex. That led

14:17

to a lack of closeness, which made

14:20

sex even less likely and then turned

14:22

into resentment and blame. I'm

14:26

not saying the answer is non-monogamy.

14:28

That can be rife with risks

14:30

and unintended entanglements. I believe

14:33

the answer is honesty and dialogue,

14:35

no matter how frightening. Lack

14:39

of sex in marriage is common and it

14:41

shouldn't lead to shame and silence. By

14:44

the same token, an affair doesn't have to lead to

14:46

the end of a marriage. What

14:49

if an affair or ideally simply the

14:51

urge to have one can be the

14:53

beginning of a necessary conversation about sex

14:56

and intimacy? What

14:59

these husbands couldn't do was have

15:01

the difficult discussion with their wives

15:03

that would force them to tackle

15:05

the issues at the root of

15:07

their cheating. They tried to convince

15:10

me that they were being kind by

15:12

keeping their affairs secret. They seemed to

15:14

have convinced themselves. But

15:17

deception and lying are ultimately

15:19

corrosive, not kind. In

15:25

the end, I had to wonder if

15:27

what these men couldn't face was something

15:29

else altogether. Hearing

15:31

why their wives no longer wanted to have sex

15:33

with them, it's much

15:35

easier after all to set

15:38

up an accountant in there. Thanks

15:57

so much for that reading Esther. You

16:00

know, it's so funny because Karen

16:02

Jones directly quotes you in

16:04

her piece. And I feel like

16:06

that is the first time ever we've

16:09

had someone read an essay where they're

16:11

directly quoted. Huh, nice. Did

16:13

anything jump out at you as you were reading? What

16:17

jumps out is she

16:19

tackles a lot of different things. The

16:22

subject of what is sexual aliveness,

16:25

what is it that people actually lose when

16:28

they stop being sexual with their

16:30

partner and how that loss of

16:32

intimacy makes the sex even more

16:34

complicated. She talked

16:36

about the loss, the longing that

16:39

this man has. I've often said

16:41

that at the heart of affairs

16:43

you find duplicity and cheating and

16:45

betrayal, but you also fight longing

16:47

and loss for the life

16:49

that one had, for the parts of

16:51

oneself that have been denied. When

16:57

we come back, I talk to Ester about

16:59

the harsh criticism this essay got and

17:02

why Ester thinks Karen Jones deserves

17:04

more credit. Stay with

17:07

us. In

17:12

celebration of the Trinity Collection's

17:14

100th anniversary, this forecast is

17:16

supported by Cartier. This

17:20

is Sarah Koenig, host of Serial. Our

17:22

newest season, season four, is about Guantanamo

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and it is unlike any criminal justice

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Dana Chivas and I, Dana is my co-host

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in the New York Times, Serial Season 4,

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Guantanamo. Listen wherever you

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get your podcasts. So

18:30

is there this essay by Karen

18:32

Jones was kind of a

18:34

lightning rod when it was published. A ton of

18:36

people were very critical of the author saying

18:38

she was sleeping with these men but then

18:40

also having conversations with them where she was like

18:43

it's very wrong of you not to tell

18:45

your wife what you're up to. Why do you

18:48

think this essay got so much backlash?

18:51

I think that the reaction to stories

18:54

of infidelity are often

18:58

intense. It's

19:01

a subject for which people are

19:03

very quickly dogmatic because

19:06

they have experienced the effects of

19:08

it. You know when I

19:10

am in an audience like if I was to

19:12

ask have you been affected by the experience of

19:15

infidelity in your life? Either

19:17

because one of your

19:19

parents was unfaithful or because you yourself

19:21

had a child of an illicit affair

19:24

or because you had a friend on

19:26

whose shoulder somebody is weeping or you

19:28

had a confidant of someone who is

19:30

in the complete bliss of

19:33

an affair or because you

19:35

are the third person in

19:37

the triangle and about 80% of

19:40

the people will raise their hands. Wow I

19:42

mean 80% sounds like

19:44

a surprisingly large number but when you

19:47

explain it like that with different tendrils of

19:49

an affair that affect everyone

19:51

around the affair not just the people in it it

19:53

makes total sense. And

19:56

it raises intense feelings in

19:58

people. she

20:00

may have gotten the range of it, but you

20:02

will hear more loudly the ones

20:04

who say, you are a homewrecker,

20:06

which by the way, does not exist in

20:08

the masculine. The

20:11

homewrecker is always a woman, because

20:14

the woman is the one who says yes,

20:16

and therefore, if the woman hadn't said yes,

20:18

then he wouldn't be able to do it,

20:21

and then he would not be wrecking his

20:23

family. Yeah, there's no

20:25

other man either, by the way, so

20:27

is the other woman. Huh, there's no

20:29

other man. No. Not in any of

20:31

the, you know, nine languages you speak.

20:34

No, because there's never been another

20:36

man who necessarily was willing to

20:38

live in the shadow

20:40

of a woman for his entire life.

20:43

That is so fascinating. Her lover, Saint-Aman,

20:45

you know, her lover, but the other

20:47

woman usually means that she lives in

20:50

the shadow. She doesn't just have a

20:52

secret, she is the secret. That

20:54

is the hardest thing about it. When

20:57

people are writing to her,

20:59

you can ask yourself, are they

21:01

looking from the perspective of what it meant for

21:03

her, or are they looking from the perspective of

21:05

what it did to me, or to

21:08

us? Yeah, I mean, a

21:10

lot of the criticism directed

21:12

at Karen Jones, it seems, is coming from

21:14

that perspective of saying, look what she did,

21:16

look at the harm she caused, look at

21:19

the pain she caused. Which it is, which

21:21

it is. Right. Not discounting

21:23

that, but it is interesting because her

21:25

piece is so much about meaning making,

21:27

right? That's the whole conceit of her

21:29

essay is mining these experiences for meaning,

21:32

and yet people came with criticism. You

21:35

know, I wonder if this is like a

21:37

kind of unfair question, but I wonder if

21:39

there is like an ethical way to be

21:42

the other person. Is there a responsible way

21:44

to do it without participating in hurt? That

21:50

depends. That depends if you

21:52

think the whole thing is unethical and

21:55

is an egregious betrayal of trust

21:58

and violation. then

22:00

you will say no. I

22:02

think the responsibility lies on the person who

22:04

goes out, not on the lover. Here's

22:08

what many people often say, it's like

22:10

if you had asked me, or

22:12

if you had told me, but you made a

22:15

decision without me, you made a decision about our

22:17

marriage that did not involve me at all. And

22:21

fair point. Of course, they know

22:23

for fact too, that if they had been asked, they would have

22:25

said no. But

22:28

there is this, you know, the things that

22:30

you say after and there is the things that you say

22:32

before. So ultimately,

22:35

I feel like I hear

22:37

you agreeing with Karen Jones

22:39

here, that there are really important

22:41

conversations that need to be happening

22:43

between these husbands and their wives,

22:46

that actually don't even have that much to do

22:48

with Karen. Can you tell me

22:50

more about that? The conversation

22:52

that Karen Jones would like these men

22:55

to have with their wives, is

22:58

the conversations that take place in my book, Mating

23:00

in Captivity. Because mating

23:03

in captivity explore the dilemmas

23:05

of desire inside relationships.

23:07

And why do people seize

23:10

wanting? And could they

23:12

want what they already have? And why

23:14

does good sex fade even in couples

23:16

who still love each other as much

23:18

as ever? And why do

23:20

kids often deliver a fatal erotic

23:22

blow? What happens

23:24

when they don't have this conversation? And

23:28

they go elsewhere. And it's not just a

23:30

conversation about monogamy. It's really a conversation, what

23:32

does sex mean to you? What

23:35

do you want to experience in sex? Is

23:38

it a place for connection? Is it a

23:40

place for transcendence, for spiritual union, to be

23:42

naughty, to finally not be a good citizen,

23:45

to be playful, to be taken care of,

23:47

to surrender, to be safely dominant? What parts

23:50

of you do you connect with through

23:52

sexuality, rather than how often do

23:54

we have sex and we

23:56

never have sex and why don't we do it more?

24:00

So that is a very different

24:02

conversation. But as Karen

24:04

points to in her essay and as you

24:07

certainly point to in your book, those

24:10

conversations are so difficult to have,

24:12

even though, you know, this is

24:14

the person we're supposed to be

24:16

the closest to. Why is

24:18

that? Because

24:21

we grow up learning to be silent

24:23

about sex and never talk about it.

24:25

And then suddenly we are expected to

24:27

talk about it with the person we

24:29

love. Or in other words, sex

24:31

is dirty, but save it for the one you love.

24:34

It's like we have very little practice talking

24:36

about it. You know,

24:38

we don't get any of it in schools. Certainly

24:41

most families don't talk about it either.

24:44

You know, and when we talk about

24:46

sexuality, we talk about the dangers and

24:48

the diseases and the dysfunctions. We don't

24:50

talk about intimacy. We

24:52

don't actually mix the word

24:54

sexuality and relationships as one

24:56

whole. Yeah. And

24:59

I mean, if we don't talk about

25:01

intimacy or the lack of it with

25:03

a partner that can in some cases

25:05

lead to people going outside the marriage

25:07

to find that intimacy they're lacking in

25:09

it. You know, I'm thinking about

25:11

Karen's favorite married man, the one with

25:14

all the tattoos. He says

25:16

it's not necessarily a

25:18

lie. If you don't confess the truth,

25:20

it's kinder to stay silent. In

25:23

your experience working with couples, is he

25:25

right? Is that true? This

25:28

is a very cultural question. Because

25:32

you live in a society here

25:35

that believes in the moral

25:37

cure of truth. But

25:40

there are many societies for

25:42

whom truth and honesty are not

25:44

measured by the confession, but

25:46

they are measured by what it will be like for the

25:49

other person to walk with this on the street. Meaning

25:52

that, you know, they

25:54

will consider the confession often as

25:56

cruelty. So

25:59

what? got it off your chest. So

26:01

now you're less guilty and now I have to

26:03

live with this? Why don't you

26:05

just keep this to yourself kind of thing?

26:07

This is very cultural because in the United

26:09

States that is not the common

26:11

view. The common view is that the confession

26:14

is the best state even if you're going

26:16

to wreck the other person's life for the

26:18

next five years to come. And

26:21

I am left with a question

26:23

mark but when I answer this

26:25

question I ask people about their

26:27

own cultural codes as well. I

26:29

do not impose mine and mine

26:31

fluctuates depending on the context. I

26:33

think these questions are highly contextual

26:36

more than dogmatic. You

26:39

know we've talked about how there's so

26:41

many unsaid things between a couple that

26:43

can lead to distance and

26:45

infidelity. If a couple

26:47

is feeling themselves drifting apart from

26:50

each other emotionally, sexually, both,

26:53

what are some things you could encourage them to do that

26:55

might help? You

26:59

know I like to coach

27:01

people to do letter writing. Sometimes

27:05

I make one person turn their back

27:08

and I make the other person write

27:10

a letter on the back of the other

27:13

person. Oh physically on the back. Yes but

27:15

it's a fake. You're pretending to write but

27:17

you're writing on the back but that way

27:19

you don't see the person. Interesting.

27:22

Hi Anna. This

27:24

is something that I've been wanting to talk to

27:26

you for a long time and I give them

27:28

the prompt. You know we

27:30

never talk much about sexuality between us.

27:32

For some reason I decided a long

27:35

time ago that you wouldn't want to

27:37

but maybe it was I who didn't

27:40

know how to. And

27:42

basically they write these whole letters in

27:44

which they end up telling each other

27:47

much of what they have never spoken.

27:50

I love that. What a kind

27:53

and beautiful and compassionate

27:55

way of easing

27:57

into a conversation you've been afraid of having.

28:00

Esther Perel, thank you so much for

28:03

that idea and thank you for talking with me

28:05

today. Thank

28:07

you for having me. Esther

28:17

Perel is on tour in the US

28:19

right now. Her show is

28:21

called An Evening with Esther Perel, The

28:24

Future of Relationships, Love and Desire.

28:26

If you want to visit for more details and to

28:28

buy tickets, she told me she's going to create an

28:31

erotic experience in these theaters so you do not want

28:33

to miss that. Modern

28:36

Love is produced by Julia Botero, Christina

28:38

Joseph, Reva Goldberg, Davis Land and

28:40

Emily Lang. It's edited by our

28:43

executive producer Jen Poiant and Davis

28:45

Land. The Modern Love theme

28:47

music is by Dan Powell. Original

28:49

music by Dan Powell, Marion

28:52

Lozano, Pat McCusker, Rowan Nemestow,

28:54

Carol Saburo and Diane Wong.

28:57

This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Our

29:00

show is recorded by Maddie Maciello.

29:02

Digital production by Mijima Chablani and

29:04

Nell Gologli. The

29:06

Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia

29:09

Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. I'm

29:12

Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.