0:00

When one thinks of Italy, they can't help

0:02

but think of the fashion, the culture, the food,

0:04

the storied history, and of course, the shopping.

0:07

There is a new Italian lingerie brand who

0:09

recently partnered up with Jennifer Lopez that

0:11

is made with gorgeous fabrics, colorful silks,

0:14

and delicate lace.

0:15

But the name can be a bit challenging to pronounce.

0:19

Intimacy, inter- inter-missy?

0:21

Inter-mississippi? It's

0:24

Intimissimi, the art of Italian

0:26

lingerie. go to intimisiem.com

0:29

slash JLo. Hey,

0:31

Modern Love listeners. We're looking for stories

0:34

from people with divorced parents. And

0:36

we've got a question.

0:38

What's the moment when your parents' divorce

0:40

really sunk in? Not necessarily

0:43

when they told you they were separating, but the moment

0:45

where it really hit you and you realized,

0:48

my life is different. And it's always

0:50

going to be different.

0:51

Tell us about your moment of realization

0:54

and find all the submission details by

0:56

visiting nytimes.com

0:59

slash divorced parents. That

1:01

link is also in our show notes. We

1:03

can't wait to hear from you.

1:07

["The Modern Love"]

1:20

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

1:23

This is Modern Love. When

1:26

I was dating, I felt like people were always

1:28

telling me to have fun. And

1:30

frankly, that ticked me off. Because

1:33

I was like, this is not fun at all.

1:36

I'm constantly confused, wondering

1:39

if the person likes me, not sure

1:41

if we want the same thing, terrified

1:43

they're ghosting me. Like, what is fun

1:45

about that?

1:47

Today's essay is by Denny Agassi. Denny

1:50

managed to do what I never could. She

1:53

was actually having fun dating. She

1:55

was on the apps, hooking up with guys, and

1:57

genuinely having a good time.

2:00

until she met this one

2:02

guy who made her

2:04

want more.

2:12

Denny, welcome to Modern Love. Hello, hello.

2:15

I heard you just celebrated a birthday. Who

2:17

told you? I know,

2:18

one of my producers, one of my producers did.

2:20

How old are you? Oh my gosh,

2:23

I'm 26. All

2:26

right, so Denny, you wrote an essay about

2:29

someone who wasn't in your life for long, but who helped

2:32

you realize what you deserve in

2:34

a relationship, what you're worth.

2:36

And I wanna start the story when you just

2:39

moved to New York City. How old were you

2:41

when you moved here? I was 21.

2:43

I had just graduated from undergrad and

2:45

I went straight to my Fordham

2:48

master's program. And

2:50

I was really looking

2:52

to truly get my Carrie Bradshaw, New

2:54

York City writer, Sweaters in the Oven,

2:58

Status. And I had

3:01

published my first

3:03

ever piece and it was about the

3:05

correlation between transitioning

3:08

and thrift shopping. Thrifting to me

3:10

means a lot, you know, because when

3:12

I was transitioning, it was like not

3:14

only accessible, it felt

3:16

like

3:17

giving

3:18

these old clothes a second chance,

3:20

felt like

3:21

it felt in tandem with myself, giving myself

3:23

another chance of

3:26

figuring out how I wanted to move through the world.

3:29

And so I had sort of left undergrad

3:32

with this mentality of, I

3:34

just want to enjoy being 21. I

3:39

got Grindr for the first time that

3:41

summer. I was not

3:43

even looking to date. I really was

3:46

okay with meeting people at their apartment.

3:49

I was there with a mission. What was the mission?

3:52

Sex. Mm-hmm.

3:55

That's when I started to learn that a lot of the times,

3:59

profiles were blank. And I

4:01

think that was enough to let me know that

4:03

there was some sort of a cultural

4:05

shame, you know, at least with guys

4:07

who are attracted to women

4:10

and women who were also trans. Tell

4:13

me a little bit more about

4:14

what you understood a blank profile meant.

4:17

Well,

4:17

it communicated to me that

4:20

they didn't want to be known. Was your profile

4:22

blank? No. I had a few pictures,

4:24

yeah. My bio was

4:26

be trans friendly, send face

4:29

to chat. And so usually when

4:32

guys messaged me, they would send them a

4:34

picture first. And when I

4:36

had first moved, there were probably like

4:38

three or four guys I was seeing in rotation

4:41

and they're really lovely.

4:43

How were you feeling post hookup?

4:46

In the scope of Grindr and the scope

4:48

of hooking up and being a sexually active

4:50

trans woman in New York City, I felt

4:53

like I was doing,

4:54

I was slaying. Four to five, yeah,

4:57

you were.

5:00

And I think it was easy for me to not

5:02

get attached because there was always one hang up. Maybe

5:05

there was a part of their personality I didn't really

5:08

feel attracted to, or maybe

5:10

they were just a little bit older than I would

5:12

have preferred. But there was always one

5:14

thread that I could say, yeah, maybe

5:17

this is not the best if I were to date you. Right,

5:19

it's not gonna work out because of this thing. It's not gonna work out.

5:21

But

5:23

I think there comes to a point, maybe

5:25

it's hours later, maybe it's days later,

5:27

that there is a come down and I sort

5:30

of feel a bit emptier. And

5:33

so maybe there

5:35

is a bit of curiosity in me that's like, okay,

5:37

what if it was a little

5:39

different? Because I did

5:42

wonder a little bit, this is my carry brush

5:44

a moment, I wonder

5:47

what would it look like to have something

5:49

more? And then you meet

5:51

this one guy. Yeah.

5:54

I was in my bedroom. I was doing homework.

5:57

I had a message. It was a

5:59

soft. And I was like, wow,

6:01

he is really cute. Oh my God, describe what

6:04

he looked like. Okay,

6:06

so he's wearing

6:08

a gray lacrosse shirt, and

6:10

I think that's been his high school. And

6:13

he had a bit of a smirk, messy,

6:16

light brown hair. And I

6:18

thought, this guy is actually really adorable.

6:21

So his first message to

6:23

you was just the photo? Did he say anything? He

6:25

said, hello. Okay. You know, smiley

6:28

face.

6:29

And listen, compared to the other messages

6:32

I've been getting, that was probably the most

6:35

wholesome one. Interesting. Which

6:37

is sad

6:37

in retrospect. I think

6:40

I had said like, ah, a

6:42

lacrosse boy, I see. And

6:46

he was someone who immediately

6:48

I could characterize as someone who was really playful

6:50

with me. And to me that was really attractive.

6:53

Do you remember what his profile looked like? It

6:55

was blank. Yeah,

6:59

it was blank. Other

7:01

than his age. Yeah, it's at 22.

7:03

Yeah. He

7:07

tells me, I'm Jack by the way, and I

7:09

said my name is Steny. And then we

7:13

exchanged numbers that

7:15

night and he

7:17

would always like sort of initiate conversation

7:19

and getting

7:21

messages like you're

7:23

really pretty or you're so cute.

7:27

It was really simple

7:30

and I think what

7:32

I really liked was just honestly

7:35

how ordinary it

7:37

felt. But then

7:39

you and Jack did eventually meet up and

7:42

you have a part of your essay about the first time you

7:44

hung out. Can you read that? Yeah.

7:47

The first afternoon

7:49

Jack came over, He admired

7:51

my bathtub and drank his cup of water

7:53

with two hands.

7:55

his poised demeanor in a

7:57

beigeual pea coat and long scarf

8:00

reminded me, in a good way, of

8:03

John Bender in the Breakfast Club.

8:06

In my bedroom, he fixated

8:09

on my yellow Power Ranger figurines.

8:12

He noticed my framed academic award

8:15

next to them on the window sill. We

8:18

sat on my bed, my back leaning against the

8:20

wall. He

8:22

sloshed his head onto my hip and wrapped

8:24

his arms around my waist. This

8:27

is weird, I thought.

8:30

My hookups were mostly no

8:33

cuddling, no expressions

8:35

of affection. I

8:38

kissed him and rolled on top. I

8:41

took off my shirt and he hugged me tight.

8:45

His face dug into my chest, as

8:48

he said. I

8:50

like you. I

8:53

think you're really cool. I'm

8:56

unsure how I actually felt. I said, oh,

9:00

I think you're really cool too.

9:05

Were you caught off guard when he said I like you?

9:07

I was like, what are you doing? Tell me what

9:09

was going through your mind. Well, at

9:11

first I was honestly surprised

9:13

by his honesty. At

9:16

that point I didn't really have

9:18

that much experience with guys

9:21

who are really in touch with just expressing

9:24

how they felt in the moment. You

9:26

know, this guy is underneath me. And

9:30

this is

9:30

what he says. It was a

9:32

bit of an awe, but also, huh?

9:37

And in terms of the huh, you

9:39

know, you said that initially when

9:41

you met him, there was some sort of inkling

9:43

that maybe this could be something other

9:45

than a hookup. Yeah, so

9:48

when he was looking at my academic

9:50

award, And he had asked O'Nee-Onta,

9:53

like SUNY O'Nee-Onta, and I was like, yeah, he said,

9:55

oh, I went to Potsdam. Are those schools close?

9:58

Yeah, okay. I had multiple friends

10:01

at Potsdam. And so now

10:03

not only was he really cute

10:06

and sincere, my

10:09

age, I was really like struggling

10:11

to find that hang up that

10:13

I usually had with other guys. And

10:16

for now to have mutual

10:18

friend groups for

10:20

our social circles to collide, there

10:23

was a moment where I was like, Oh my gosh, this

10:25

guy

10:26

is not only not a stranger

10:29

to me anymore, but he

10:32

understands like my

10:35

perspective of my universe, because

10:37

in some ways he lives

10:39

in it too.

10:41

It felt really intense.

10:43

But I remember like seeing how cool

10:46

he looked, you know, he had that like brown wool

10:48

pea coat and he

10:51

had a thrifted sweater on. And you know,

10:54

I have a very soft spot for thrifting.

10:56

It sounds like though with the sweater and with

10:59

the Potsdam, you're drawing all

11:01

these connections between

11:04

you and Jack. You sort of are inhabiting

11:07

similar worlds. Not

11:09

only similar worlds, it felt like we

11:12

were occupying the same ones, given

11:14

the friends that we had, given

11:17

our age and how close

11:19

he was to me.

11:20

Had you felt that way with someone that you'd met up with?

11:23

Mm-mm, no. Did you want

11:25

to see him again after that? Oh, immediately.

11:30

Jack wanted to see Denny again, too. And

11:32

things escalate after

11:35

the break.

11:40

When one thinks of Italy, they can't help but

11:42

think of the fashion, the culture, the food,

11:44

the storied history, and of course, the shopping.

11:47

There

11:47

is a new Italian lingerie brand who

11:49

recently partnered up with Jennifer Lopez that

11:52

is made with gorgeous fabrics, colorful silks,

11:54

and delicate lace.

11:56

But the name can be a bit challenging to pronounce.

11:59

intimacy. inter intermissi

12:01

inter mississippi it's

12:04

intimissimi the art of Italian

12:06

lingerie go to intimissimi.com

12:09

slash jlo my name is

12:12

abdi latif dehir i'm the east africa

12:14

correspondent at the new york times speaking

12:17

to someone in their own local language

12:20

opens up a level of honesty

12:22

and transparency that would not be

12:24

present when i speak to somebody in english

12:27

When I come into someone's home and greet them in Somali

12:30

or Swahili, you know, like, Khabari or Khabari

12:32

Zeino, it brings you into the room. I

12:34

understand the culture you're coming from, and I'm speaking

12:36

to you in the language that you understand,

12:39

that level of familiarity. I

12:41

use that to really get deeper into

12:43

what's going on. What I'm trying

12:45

to do is help our readers understand

12:48

what's happening here in East Africa

12:51

and see how it plays a role in

12:53

the bigger picture. New York Times subscribers

12:55

keep our journalists reporting from across the

12:58

map to help you understand the

13:00

issues shaping our world. If

13:02

you would like to subscribe, you can do that

13:04

at nytimes.com slash

13:07

subscribe.

13:20

So you and Jack hang out again, but

13:22

this time you let him sleep over? Uh-huh,

13:25

yeah. And I had a full-blown panic attack.

13:28

No way. Yeah, I didn't sleep.

13:29

Wait, tell me about that. Okay. Yeah.

13:33

I was sweating so much, and he was also so warm.

13:36

And I was sort of under this assumption

13:38

that sleepovers were really

13:41

cute and fun and totally

13:44

not sweaty. And

13:46

I just got out of bed, sat in my bathroom

13:48

for a bit. The panic though,

13:50

was it sort of like, was the panic because

13:53

you'd let someone into your world in this really intimate

13:55

way? Yeah. alone

13:57

was really sacred and so

14:00

This was my

14:02

attempt to sort of, I

14:04

wanted to see what it would look like to invite

14:06

and let someone into that. What

14:09

about him made you want him to

14:11

sleep over? What was it about him that made you feel comfortable

14:14

enough to let him do that? Honestly,

14:19

I think there might've been a bit of like a

14:23

desperation and an urgency of

14:26

having experienced something really ugly and

14:30

selfishly just wanting more of it immediately.

14:34

What

14:34

was that something you wanted more of?

14:36

I think somewhere tangential

14:40

to romance, for sure. Part

14:44

of your essay is about that night. Can

14:46

you read it? Okay. Customarily,

14:50

my flings with strange men were brief. The

14:53

men did not take note of my bathtub or my

14:55

educational history before sex, and

14:58

they did not linger after. I

15:00

came back into bed, disturbed by the rumble

15:02

of his snoring, but his sleeping face

15:05

on my pillow struck me.

15:07

For the first time, the thought

15:09

of sharing bed with a man did not come from pure

15:12

imagination. I now had

15:14

a real image for this fantasy. I

15:16

could pretend Jack was my boyfriend, reach

15:19

for his face and whisper, I love you,

15:22

good night.

15:24

Then fall asleep and meet him somewhere in his

15:26

dream, as if we had done this a

15:28

hundred times before.

15:37

What were you trying out when you touched

15:39

Jack's face, when you whispered, I love you? Yeah,

15:43

I guess picturing those things was

15:45

my way of facing

15:49

myself and being really honest and being like, okay,

15:51

girl, you're thinking about dating this guy. Let's

15:55

explore that. And for

15:57

me, it felt really good too. be

16:00

upfront with myself at least and say, okay,

16:02

if you want to date, I'm like, what would

16:04

it look like? And at

16:06

this point, like you and

16:08

I have not even been talking about

16:11

the

16:11

dynamic that

16:13

this guy is someone who's this, and you know,

16:15

I'm a trans person, like even in that

16:17

moment, like I don't feel

16:19

like that was even a thing, you know?

16:23

Think I had a lot of presumed

16:25

baggage about that kind of a dynamic

16:28

and what a public relationship would look like.

16:30

But for him, it felt

16:33

really, yeah, really easy. Did

16:36

this night and him sleeping over make you feel a little bit

16:38

closer? I

16:42

let myself be a little more affectionate

16:45

for sure. You know, like, some

16:49

nights we're in my bed just like watching

16:52

YouTube and, you know, maybe he'll

16:55

give me a kiss on the cheek. And

16:57

sleepovers became sometimes like

16:59

the thing I was most excited to do, just

17:02

like getting ready for bed together.

17:04

And there was one time I was

17:08

doing my thesis. So

17:10

I woke up early and doing

17:14

my homework on the ground, on my laptop.

17:16

And then from the corner of my eye, see

17:19

his hand sort of come up to touch

17:21

my face. And I had

17:23

just out of instinct, you know, took his

17:25

hand and, you know, started kissing me and,

17:28

you know,

17:29

rubbing my cheek with it. And

17:31

it was really my first moment of like

17:34

following Jack's suit of thoughtless

17:38

affection. I mean, in the moment

17:40

I didn't think about it, but I

17:42

do remember feeling like, I just can't

17:44

believe like some people like, some

17:48

people like really get to experience that Like all

17:51

the time, you know? When

17:56

you say that other people get to have that,

18:01

Do you mean cis people? Right,

18:03

yeah. Yeah.

18:10

Had you felt like you'd experienced

18:12

that before? No.

18:17

And I felt really grateful for that. To

18:20

like, trust someone that

18:22

much and, you know, have

18:25

his trust in return to share

18:28

that with. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

18:33

It was something I had sort of realized

18:36

I could have. You got

18:38

a glimpse, yeah. Yeah. I

18:41

felt like

18:42

this sort of world I was picturing about

18:45

what a beautiful, colorful relationship

18:47

would look like, felt like

18:49

he was helping me chip that door down

18:51

and, you

18:53

know, I could see more and more. And

18:55

I was like, I'm starting to

18:58

see the full picture and think,

19:02

you know, with your help. I'm at

19:04

a place where I think I can really

19:06

admit that

19:06

I want that a lot.

19:13

So what happened? Ah.

19:18

Well, in between, as you know, as the months went

19:20

on, sometimes I went here

19:22

for a few days. And then

19:25

sometimes it would be a few weeks. Then

19:27

it was a month. So like the space

19:30

between texting just got bigger and bigger. Bigger and

19:32

bigger. And the way it was like the closer we were

19:34

getting to... That feels confusing. And

19:36

that felt so

19:37

confusing.

19:39

And then it

19:41

was crickets. Yeah. Yeah,

19:44

you were ghosted, which is

19:46

so painful. Because it

19:49

feels like you were just starting to admit to yourself that

19:51

you wanted something more from Jack. and

19:53

that's the moment that he pulls away. Yeah,

19:56

I was at a point where I felt

19:59

pretty open and then... and suddenly

20:01

I'm alone in it, and

20:04

I felt like I'm making a fool

20:06

out of myself for wanting these things because

20:09

the silence is telling

20:11

me a lot. And

20:13

then it just got to a point where

20:16

I sort of just embraced it and

20:18

said, I think it's just gonna be something

20:20

that I carry with me. You

20:23

know, like I was born and raised in Indonesia, and

20:26

I'm at a point now where I've lived

20:28

in the States longer than I have back

20:30

on the islands. And from what I

20:33

know here with how we

20:35

grieve is that we sort

20:37

of isolate ourselves. We

20:39

bury it all in that

20:41

moment in time. And then we move forward

20:44

with our life. And

20:46

I did that with Jack and

20:49

it worked until it didn't. So

20:54

going into therapy was

20:56

my way of undinking all of

20:58

that pain and all of the nice things

21:00

that he allowed me to experience.

21:04

And

21:04

even though my

21:07

time with Jack was just a blip,

21:10

I have a lot of gratitude for

21:13

what he allowed me

21:15

to experience. It's

21:19

really striking to me that

21:22

gratitude is the thing that

21:25

you're taking from this. Like you said, these beautiful things,

21:27

these beautiful moments and emotions that you could experience,

21:30

what did experiencing those with him

21:32

tell you about the possibility of experiencing them later

21:34

on? I think

21:37

it's taught me like if I want someone

21:39

to treat me a certain way, I

21:41

better be doing it already to myself first.

21:45

But also it's taught me

21:47

that being trans

21:49

is not a hang up, up that

21:52

it's okay to want more.

22:00

open to a relationship. A

22:02

serious one. She

22:04

has clarity on what she wants and

22:06

she's comfortable asking for it. ["A

22:11

Little Break"]

22:23

This is the last episode of our season.

22:26

We're gonna take a little break and then we'll be back

22:28

in late May with all new episodes.

22:34

Modern Love is produced by Elissa Dudley,

22:36

Julia Botero, Christina Joseph,

22:39

and Hans Buto. It's edited

22:41

by Sarah Saracen. Our executive producer

22:43

is Jen Poiant. This episode was

22:45

mixed by Sophia Landman and our show is recorded

22:48

by Maddie Masiello. The

22:50

Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Digital

22:53

production by Mahima Chablani and Elle Golokly.

22:57

The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

23:00

Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

23:04

I'm Anna Martin. Thank

23:06

you for listening.

23:08

You