0:00

This. Podcast is supported by Cafferty

0:02

in celebration of the Trinity

0:04

Collections one hundredth Anniversary gift

0:06

dishes testaments of love in

0:08

all it's forms from around

0:10

the world. Please keep listening

0:12

for today's love story later

0:14

in this episode. Love

0:22

now and. A

0:24

lot stronger than. Anything. And

0:28

I love you more than

0:30

anything to emerge. From

0:35

the New York Times. I'm in

0:37

a Martin. This is Modern Love

0:39

Today on the Show. Author and

0:41

advice Columnist John Paul Bremer. John

0:45

Paul has built his career answering

0:48

people's burning questions about love and

0:50

relationships in his column Ola Puppy.

0:53

All. About the i suck at first states all

0:55

a puppy is my crush just leaving the on

0:57

all our puppy. Is it a bad idea to

0:59

live with my all a puppy? I came out

1:02

no one cares. The column runs in

1:04

New York Magazine, but it didn't start

1:06

their it began on a blog started

1:08

by Grinder. Grinder is

1:10

an app that is known

1:12

for young a professional seeking

1:14

love and I'm putting the

1:16

nicely. That tagline

1:19

acted like no not at all or

1:21

young gay professional of that's what I

1:23

tell people are so I tell straight

1:25

people want him back in Oklahoma. To

1:29

Decode but John Paul saying Grinder is

1:31

a hook up app mostly use by

1:33

gay men and to him that felt

1:36

like the perfect place to source a

1:38

ton of problems. I'm

1:40

using the inexhaustible well of good drama here, So

1:42

I was like oh my God. I'll never run

1:44

out of stuff to write about. What

1:46

kind of questions as you get? There. Were ones

1:48

that were a simple as like. I. Moved

1:51

to a big city and I still can't find

1:53

friends or boyfriend of them lonely within they were

1:55

ones that were really quite dire. like. Oh.

1:57

I'm in my coworker and he's good. the

2:00

me some signs the he might be in

2:02

to me as well but we're in a

2:04

country where homosexuality is illegal and I don't

2:06

know what to do and I'm sitting. There

2:08

are a. I'm sitting

2:10

there in like a coffee shop in Chelsea

2:13

like I don't know how to answer? Is

2:15

this. While I mean suit, so

2:17

how would you respond? I. Don't

2:19

want try to pass myself off as a

2:21

therapist or an expert. But. I kind

2:23

of drew on my own background of okay we'll who

2:25

were the people who gave me advice when I was

2:27

first coming into the gay community I just come out.

2:30

I was getting billie of the land. Who. Were

2:32

my mentors and you know is really informal in Oklahoma

2:34

their rid of guys that the gay bars that I

2:36

met and they were of like old queen there who

2:38

would kind of take me under their wing and be

2:41

like here's how we do things here is the kind

2:43

of guy to look out for. And

2:45

I thought, okay, I can do that. I can

2:47

be an informal mentor figure that you meet at

2:49

a bar. Okay,

2:52

so John Paul, Before we get into the essay

2:54

you chose to read today, I wanted to ask

2:57

you about a question you got recently. That's very.

2:59

Timely. Because it's Mother's Day this

3:01

week. And it's from someone

3:03

who calls herself helicopter mom and she

3:06

writes that her son is twenty nine.

3:08

His. First. Real boyfriend and

3:10

see seals. Super protective at

3:12

them so. The questions yes you

3:14

is what is the best way I

3:16

can support my son while he's navigating.

3:19

His first relationship. Yeah.

3:21

It just sounded like she was really

3:23

afraid of the human condition. his his

3:25

that you know and the human condition

3:28

were vulnerable creatures were going to get

3:30

hurt in life and I think says

3:32

when we love someone especially a child

3:35

I have to imagine. And.

3:37

You take a look at the world that

3:39

they're stepping into, and you just wish that

3:41

you could shield them from things. And you

3:43

wish that you could protect them from harm.

3:46

But making peace with that is sort of

3:48

them can be really difficult to do. but

3:50

I think you know. Trying. To

3:52

make the case of this mom that. We.

3:55

Learned to live by living and

3:57

it's through disappointment hardship that. We.

3:59

Open those up to wisdom and change

4:01

and gross. Do. You remember

4:04

specific moment where your own

4:06

mom or grandma was. Overpowered.

4:09

By they're protected impulse for you can like

4:11

helicopter mom and in the solder. Oh

4:14

gosh, yeah I'm a know it's not

4:16

super characteristic of my mom, but I

4:18

grew up in rural Oklahoma very rural

4:20

area and I went to college like

4:23

an hour and a half away and

4:25

so they will to visit other time

4:27

and so I finally got a writing

4:29

job after I graduated that was gonna

4:31

take me to D C and I

4:33

was going to move pretty far away.

4:36

I mean that's a big leap from

4:38

rural Oklahoma and I think suit made

4:40

my mom kind of nervous because. Both.

4:42

She and my dad accompanied me to my

4:45

first trip to D C. An email gonna

4:47

meet my roommates but my mom does. Had

4:49

to go with me? Absolutely no, no. I

4:51

want to make sure that you're gonna be

4:54

in a place that safe and I want

4:56

to see these people for myself. And something

4:58

about having like. Five. Roommates

5:00

around my age in this new big city really

5:02

spooked her I think. And so you know. I

5:04

did bring my mom and believe you're not, They

5:07

did not ask me to live with them. So

5:13

we have Iran to support you

5:15

even if she's nervous about your

5:17

decision to move. And you know.

5:20

John Paul. You actually can help me out

5:22

because that story reminds me as the not

5:24

another say you just read today. Absolutely.

5:27

It's has in for see that in

5:29

his kiss. Seven is watching His grandmother

5:32

made a big decision that he has

5:34

to accept and like your mom tendons

5:36

way of supporting his grandmother through her

5:39

decision is by being there for her.

5:41

Along the way the essays called young,

5:43

gay and single among the nuns and

5:46

widows. And. Before we had sh, do you

5:48

think you could come up with an all a puppy

5:50

pen name for Kevin? Kind of like helicopter mom and

5:52

known for the end of landing Know you can do

5:54

it. I. can also brainstorm with you yes

5:56

so my mind immediately you'd need to

5:59

play with the none aspect of the

6:01

whole thing. So, you know.

6:04

What about like getting none, but it's N-U-N,

6:06

like not having sex, but then. That's a

6:09

really, really good one. I'm jealous that that

6:11

one didn't come to my brain. Yes, I

6:13

mean, it has to be getting none. Getting

6:15

none. The Olapapi pen name

6:18

for Kevin Hershey is getting none. That's

6:21

again N-U-N, it'll make sense once we hear

6:23

John Paul read the essay. How

6:25

about you take it away?

6:28

Young, Gay, and Single, Among the Nuns

6:31

and Widows by Kevin Hur. When

6:38

I graduated from college in Portland, Oregon eight years

6:41

ago, I dreamed of taking my

6:43

Spanish major and spirit of adventure and

6:45

moving abroad, where I would

6:48

quickly acquire a gay lover who would introduce

6:50

me to new languages, foods, and sex. Instead,

6:55

I moved back home to St. Paul,

6:57

Minnesota, and into my Irish grandmother's Catholic

6:59

senior living apartment, where she

7:01

and I barely spoke, and where she

7:04

at least didn't eat. At

7:08

90, having lived a long and healthy life,

7:10

she had decided to die by starvation, and

7:13

I had decided at my mother's request to

7:15

be there for her. My

7:21

grandmother had moved to the United States from Ireland

7:23

65 years earlier. While

7:25

she spoke with a thick brogue and still

7:27

chose tea over coffee, she did

7:29

not glory in tales of the beautiful country she had

7:31

left behind. Sean

7:34

and Jimmy hated Ireland. She would often say about

7:36

my brother and cousin who had studied there in

7:38

the early 2000s. It

7:41

rained the whole time and their feet were never dry. Of

7:44

course, all I heard is how much they

7:46

love their semesters in Ireland. They

7:48

never complained about having wet feet. But

7:51

my grandmother had left that dank, gray

7:53

island, brutalized by British imperialism, and never

7:56

looked back. She

8:02

landed in New York City, the bright

8:04

and bustling opposite of her slow, sea-washed

8:06

homeland. She wore

8:08

pink linen pantsuits and turquoise floral

8:10

tops, never beige Irish wool or

8:12

long-clad skirts. She preferred

8:15

pasta with red sauce to potatoes and brown

8:17

bread. And

8:19

then, having reached 90, she

8:22

had decided to die with seemingly as much confidence

8:24

and determination as when she left her home country.

8:27

Having been healthy her entire life and still

8:29

blessed with the full ability to walk, talk,

8:31

and cook, my grandmother stopped

8:33

eating. There

8:40

was no discussion in the family as to whether we

8:42

would force-feed her or somehow coerce her

8:44

into living more years that her body could

8:46

have managed. She simply remained

8:48

in her chair, draped in

8:51

rosaries, waiting for what she believed

8:53

to be her next step. My

8:59

grandmother's matter-of-fact death announcement came a month

9:02

after my college graduation. As

9:04

the jobless and largely aimless person I was

9:06

back then, except for the aim

9:08

to experience new languages, foods, and sex, I

9:11

became the most obvious candidate to be there for

9:13

my grandmother during her final weeks. And

9:18

so, for the next six weeks, I

9:20

spent my days shouting over the TV. She

9:22

was no longer using her hearing aids, as

9:25

she peacefully lay in bed and starved herself to death.

9:28

In the morning, we would listen to public radio,

9:31

or I would. She probably couldn't hear.

9:34

And I would make eggs and toast and put

9:36

them on a plate for her, knowing that she

9:38

would wordlessly refuse to eat. Within

9:41

an hour, I would be eating them myself. I

9:45

would follow a recipe for Irish soda bread I

9:47

found on yellowing newspaper in her drawer, and

9:49

I'd eat half of it myself and pass the rest out

9:51

to the neighbors, mostly nuns who were

9:53

thrilled to get bread from a real Irish kitchen.

9:59

In the evening, an old Italian priest would

10:01

knock on the door and deliver the blessed wafer,

10:03

which my grandmother took solemnly on her tongue. I

10:07

took it too, not because I believe it to be the

10:09

flesh of Christ, but because I knew it was the only

10:11

way to share a meal with my grandmother. Needless

10:18

to say, my living situation was not at

10:20

all conducive to gay sex or most other

10:22

sins, so I

10:24

had none to confess before swallowing the wafer. I

10:27

quickly learned how the human body can function with little

10:29

food. For several days, we

10:32

would walk together down the hall to daily Catholic

10:34

Mass. While the other

10:36

Mass attendants wore threadbare slippers and even

10:38

bathrobes, my grandmother, even in the

10:40

face of death, wore suits splashed

10:42

with tropical patterns and a glistening gold watch

10:45

at her wrist. Far

10:51

from my gay South American fantasy, I

10:54

found myself single and surrounded by the

10:56

pasty white faces of nuns and widows.

11:00

No men were in my daily life

11:02

other than the bloody, crucified, well-muscled, and

11:05

oddly sexy, Christ hanging above

11:07

the altar. Despite

11:11

how close we were, especially as I saw her

11:13

through to her end, my grandmother

11:15

didn't know I was gay, and

11:18

I didn't tell her. Within

11:22

weeks, she could no longer get dressed up

11:24

or walk down the hall to Mass or

11:26

leave treats for the neighbors. Her

11:28

pearly white skin turned dishwater gray.

11:30

Her piercing green eyes became as cloudy as

11:32

the sea she had once crossed. Perhaps

11:37

out of religious fervor or simply a need

11:39

to cover up the smell of decay, a

11:42

priest lit a tall red candle depicting Jesus

11:44

with his crowned hard flame popping out of

11:46

his chest. Like

11:48

lace curtains barely concealing Irish poverty,

11:51

the rose-sinted candle did little to hide the aroma

11:53

of death that permeated the room. One

12:01

day as my grandmother lay in bed, the funeral

12:03

of Margaret Thatcher flashed across the screen. Having

12:06

not spoken in days, my grandmother nodded at Thatcher's

12:08

face on the screen and said, I won't

12:11

be seeing her in heaven. Like

12:13

many Irish people, my grandmother had never

12:15

forgiven Margaret Thatcher for her hardline stance

12:17

on keeping the North of Ireland in

12:20

the United Kingdom, particularly her

12:22

infamous indifference toward Bobby Sands, who died

12:24

on hunger strike while interned by Thatcher's

12:28

government. I don't know if my grandmother saw

12:30

the parallels that, like the freedom fighter Sands,

12:32

she too was on a hunger strike, against

12:35

aging in her case. My

12:43

grandmother stayed alive for six weeks without food, almost

12:45

as long as the 66 days Sands

12:48

lived on a hunger strike at age 27. Her

12:52

death left me again jobless and without purpose,

12:54

single, living with my parents and full of that

12:57

driftless feeling that you're afraid will never pass when

12:59

you're in your early 20s. I

13:04

tried my best via Grindr to make it seem

13:06

like I hadn't just spent the past several months

13:08

in a Catholic senior living community going to daily

13:10

Mass while seeing my grandmother to her death. I

13:16

never told most of the men I met about that, neither

13:19

then nor in the years that followed. On

13:29

my first date with Mattin, though, I immediately opened

13:32

up in a way I never had before. Something

13:36

in his warm brown eyes said that I didn't have

13:38

to lie. As we

13:40

walked through Central Park, he told me

13:43

lovingly about his Muslim-Iranian parents and the

13:45

various foods, prohibitions, and celebrations that seemed

13:47

to govern their lives. I

13:50

knew that, like me, he was

13:52

no stranger to prayers and incense,

13:54

candles, prayer beads, and rituals for

13:56

ritual's sake. We

13:58

shared a kiss in the park and I invited him for

14:00

a drink. He said he would

14:02

love to, but that he had promised to bring

14:05

his grandmother Iranian food in the hospital. There's no

14:07

way she's eating the American hospital food, he said

14:09

with a laugh. If I don't

14:11

go, she'll starve. As

14:14

I watched him walk away to fulfill his family duty, I

14:17

was filled with a calm curiosity that I had

14:19

never felt after a first kiss. Years

14:25

later, Matine and I have taught each other

14:27

our grandmother's cooking. He has

14:29

filled our kitchen with scents of saffron and

14:31

sumac, and he has learned to love

14:34

Irish soda bread with Kerrygold butter. Despite

14:36

his halal diet, we don't let a

14:39

St. Patrick's Day pass without blood puddings,

14:41

bangers, and Guinness. My

14:47

grandmother died not knowing I was gay. It's

14:50

not that I thought she would object, it just didn't

14:52

come up, and I didn't raise it. Matine's

14:55

grandmother, still living, doesn't know he's

14:57

gay either. She comes

14:59

from a country where homosexuality can be a

15:01

death penalty crime. Mine left

15:04

a land where Catholicism once ruled, that then

15:06

became the first nation to legalize same-sex marriage

15:08

to a popular vote. Many

15:15

straight people can't imagine hiding a core part of their

15:17

identity from their loved ones, and

15:19

some gay people would surely consider Matine and

15:21

me to be cowards for not being honest

15:24

with our grandmothers, for not trusting

15:26

them with the knowledge of our true selves, and

15:29

say it isn't real love if you're keeping such a

15:31

major part of yourself hidden. My

15:36

only response is that love is complicated and

15:38

diverse. In

15:40

many immigrant families, it's intertwined with duty

15:43

and care. For

15:45

Matine, love is in the passed-down Persian rugs,

15:47

the five daily prayers, and the perfectly brown

15:49

rice at the bottom of the pot. For

15:53

me, it was being there to comfort

15:55

my dying Irish grandmother as she chose to leave in

15:58

the manner she wanted. cursing

16:00

Margaret Thatcher's name to the end. Ah,

16:10

John Paul, you read that so beautifully. I

16:12

mean, it's almost bizarre how much I

16:15

recognize in my own life here. After

16:20

the break, John Paul on the things

16:22

he never told his grandmother, and

16:24

why she still knew him better than anyone

16:26

else. Stay with us. This

16:32

podcast is supported by Carche. Shortly

16:37

after my father passed away, I was just

16:39

really sad. So one of

16:41

my best friends invited me to have dinner

16:44

with his family. It

16:47

gives getting later and later. So his wife

16:49

came in and she brought a pillow, sheets,

16:51

a blanket. And then she

16:53

told me that I was going to stay with them for

16:55

a while. She told me that because she knew I was

16:57

sad. And they gave

16:59

me that family room for a couple days and

17:02

they took care of me. They made sure I

17:04

ate, made sure I

17:07

was just loved and protected.

17:11

When I left, I felt strong. I felt

17:13

I was ready to deal with the

17:15

world. With love from

17:18

Carche. Hi,

17:24

it's Samantha Shea from Wirecutter, the

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product recommendation service from the New York

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Times. We all know those people who are

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simply impossible to shop for. At Wirecutter,

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we have a huge collection of gift

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believe there's a perfect gift for everyone

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and Wirecutter can help you find it.

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Check out all our gift guides at

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nytimes.com slash gift guides. Okay,

17:54

so John Paul, you just read the

17:56

essay, Young, Gay and Single Among the

17:58

Nuns and We. Widows by Kevin Hershey.

18:01

And you said that there were some striking

18:03

similarities between Kevin's story and

18:06

your own. Tell me more about that.

18:09

So, you know, I come

18:11

from a Mexican-American background and

18:14

a very Catholic background as well.

18:17

And I never came out to either

18:19

my abuelo or my abuelo before they

18:21

died. You know, I

18:24

tried to come out a couple times to

18:26

my abuelo, but she kind of had like

18:28

selective dementia where she would just kind of

18:30

forget certain things. So one time

18:32

I kind of ventured and said like, I

18:34

think I'm gay. And she turned to me

18:36

and she was like, you

18:38

know, Mijo, Rachel Maddow is a handsome woman.

18:40

And then just like moved on

18:42

and kind of

18:45

forgot again. What a response. Yeah,

18:47

an all-timer for sure. And then,

18:49

you know, also strangely, my

18:52

abuelo, also a very strong-willed woman, she chose

18:54

to die in kind of the same manner

18:57

that Kevin's grandmother chose to die. She just

18:59

was, you know, she's very stubborn and she

19:01

was like, nope, I'm done. And she stopped

19:03

eating. And we kind of believed

19:05

her because when she says that she feels a

19:08

certain way that she's gonna do something, it is

19:10

impossible to change her mind. And so we knew

19:12

that that's how she was gonna go. And obviously

19:14

there's just a lot here that I was like, wow, that's

19:17

like from my life. I wanna

19:19

go back to this

19:21

moment where you said you kind of tried to

19:23

come out to your abuelo. You know, did you

19:25

say several times? So that time that you mentioned

19:27

was not the only time? Like once or

19:29

twice. But it was always like

19:31

a probing question. Similarly to

19:34

Kevin, I kind of thought like, this isn't

19:36

something that I really need them to know.

19:39

Like we were so set in what

19:41

our daily lives look like and the way that

19:43

we knew each other and the kind of love

19:45

that we shared. And I understand

19:48

what he's saying when he said that some would say

19:50

that that's cowardly or that like she never knew the

19:52

true me, but I

19:54

just don't see it that way because I

19:56

think that with my family and with my

19:58

grandparents, I almost inhabited a... true room even

20:00

I do here in New York where I'm kind of out and

20:02

about. Tell me more about what you mean by that. The

20:05

moment when you really come out to a

20:07

beloved family member, that's a big moment, right?

20:09

It's a moment where you're like, yes, we

20:11

have entered a new phase of our relationship.

20:13

But I guess what I'm talking about is

20:16

more subtle and kind

20:18

of just more ingrained into the everyday

20:20

nature of things. And so there are

20:22

facets of me back when I lived

20:24

at home and with my grandparents that

20:27

I haven't communicated to anyone else on earth.

20:29

And I think it's just as sacred, it's

20:31

just as important, and it's just as central

20:33

to who I am than any other part

20:35

of it. And so I shared something very

20:37

special with my grandparents that I

20:39

just never felt the need to bring this

20:42

other part into it, I guess. Is

20:44

there a moment you can remember where

20:47

you felt like you were being your

20:49

true self with your grandparents, like

20:51

a self that people in your community

20:53

in New York don't see as much?

20:56

So when I was a kid, my grandparents,

20:58

my abuelos, they were poor their whole lives,

21:01

but the way they lived their life looked

21:03

very different than the way that I lived

21:05

mine. And so being what they did to

21:07

cope and seeing the little life hacks that

21:09

they would implement in their house

21:11

that was sort of falling apart and the

21:13

way they would steal food from buffets, which

21:16

sounds like you wouldn't be able to steal

21:18

food from buffets, but they found a way.

21:21

I know. I mean, I know exactly what

21:23

you're saying, bringing like, Tupperware to the Golden Grail. I

21:25

like understand that. Yeah, exactly. So,

21:28

you know, like little things like that. And that's a

21:30

huge part of my identity. That's what my childhood looked

21:32

like. And, you know, when I meet people here in

21:35

New York and, you know, just the other day, I

21:37

was at this nice literary party thing and having a

21:39

really good time. There

21:41

is this aspect of where I come from in

21:43

my past, the things I've seen and the things

21:45

I know and the things I understand that another

21:48

person here just wouldn't be able to wrap

21:51

their brains around. And it's something that, you

21:53

know, I don't really communicate to just everyone.

21:56

And So that was a version of

21:58

me that my grandparents fostered. In

22:00

that they knew really well and that

22:02

they said hello to every more yang.

22:04

And it's intimate really is and it's

22:07

important. Yeah, I mean I I

22:09

love what you're saying. your sexuality. Is

22:11

just one pieces who you are

22:13

and your grandparents new. All.

22:15

These other parts of you so deeply and

22:18

so well I I think that's really beautifully

22:20

played so I guess I wonder like. Do.

22:23

You think? We. Have a

22:25

duty to sell our. True

22:27

selves to the people we love. You

22:30

so I would actually say the accent

22:32

he goes both ways. So when we

22:34

come from immigrant background or he come

22:36

from a in my case you know

22:38

my well as they spoke Spanish they

22:40

knew a lot about Mexico for their

22:43

families were from. I. Therefore,

22:45

I didn't know about them. so it

22:47

wasn't just like oh, I'm gay and

22:49

I'm keeping the secret from them There

22:51

was a so much about the. Intricacies

22:54

of their inner lives that. Were

22:57

not made privy to me and that you

22:59

know there is a narrative and place where

23:01

it's just like Oh V. Immigrant grandparents suffered

23:03

so that their grandchildren could have a nice

23:05

comfortable life. And. In that narrative

23:07

you know their lives get kind of papered over

23:10

and they get sort of utilizes the way to

23:12

be like oh well it with all leading up

23:14

for that I could live life. I have an

23:16

So. I'm not saying that it's like narcissistic or

23:18

self absorbed or anything but I am saying that

23:20

you know. Your. Grandparents probably also

23:22

have things about themselves that you haven't

23:24

seen and that you don't know. And

23:26

so it's not like when you're the

23:28

only one holding a secret or whatever.

23:30

We all kind of have things that

23:33

go on communicated, even with people that

23:35

we love and so. I.

23:37

Would say no I don't think so. That makes

23:39

a cowardly I think the that makes you just

23:41

a complicated human being like everyone is. Is

23:44

there something that you learned about your own

23:46

umbrella? Maybe later on in life that surprise

23:48

you That kind is tilted you out of

23:50

that narrative. Oh. gosh well

23:52

you know it's difficult because and i

23:54

will speak for every mexican family but

23:57

at least in my case my grandparents

23:59

were fabulous So every time I

24:01

talk to them about their origin stories

24:03

or where they come from, it just

24:05

changed every single time. Like, I'm pretty

24:07

sure one time my abuelo just completely

24:09

ripped off the plot of Coco to

24:11

talk about who, like, my great

24:13

grandfather was. It's a great movie. Yeah, it's a

24:16

great movie. He was just like, oh, and Miho,

24:18

you know, your great grandfather, he was an amazing

24:20

musician and he fought in the revolution and he

24:22

played for the new president. But

24:24

no, like, it was so hard to get the

24:26

truth out of them. But it's

24:30

funny, you know, there's we

24:32

do have running jokes about like, oh, you know,

24:34

abuelito. Yeah, he was probably gay. Like,

24:36

I remember he passed not too long ago, like

24:38

a few months ago. And my

24:41

mom sent this picture to us all

24:43

of my abuelito in the military. And

24:45

he is sitting on a bed

24:47

with another man and he looks happier than we

24:50

have ever seen him in our lives. And we're

24:52

all just like, man, that's why he loved the

24:54

military, huh? Like, he was just like all

24:57

to say, like, there are things that we just don't

24:59

know about our grandparents. Like,

25:01

he was like so into fashion.

25:03

One thing that we quote all the time is

25:05

that one time my sister wore this

25:08

like striped shirt or something and

25:10

my abuelito was just like stripes.

25:12

Really? No,

25:17

grandparents can be so savage.

25:20

They can really be. They

25:22

can just catch it to your core. But

25:24

it's interesting what you're saying, like

25:27

those moments where our grandparents give

25:29

us a glimpse into who they are as

25:32

people, those comments or those clips or

25:34

those stories or whatever. They make

25:36

us realize there's so much we

25:38

don't know about them. Like, even if we're

25:40

super close with them, you know,

25:43

in the author Kevin Hershey's case, even if we

25:45

live with them, even if we care for them,

25:47

there's still so much we have

25:49

to discover about. The people were closest

25:51

to I think that's I think that's a really important

25:54

thing, a really beautiful thing to remember.

25:57

Absolutely. John

26:00

Paul things so much with. Grimaces You wanna

26:02

trade Mark thank you for having me Was

26:04

a blast! Modern

26:23

Love is produced by Julio Terrelle,

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Christina Jensen we the Goldberg, Davis

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Land and Emily Lang. It's edited

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We the Goldberg and Davis land.

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The modern of the music is

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by Dan Powell. original. Music by

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Dan Panel Mary Amazon L,

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Roman Me Mr. Carroll several.

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And have a cocker. This

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episode was nixed by Daniel Ramirez or

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show was recorded by Matty Massey alone

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in Nyc. Pittman Digital Production by the

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He much a bloody. And know globally.

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The Modern of column is edited by

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martin. Thanks for listening!