0:00

In celebration of the Trinity Collection's 100th

0:02

anniversary, this forecast

0:04

is supported by Cartier. From

0:10

the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

0:12

This is Modern Love, and our guest

0:15

today is Maya Haak. You

0:17

might know her as Robin Buckley,

0:19

a wise-cracking but open-hearted teen on

0:22

the paranormal TV series Stranger Things.

0:24

I should stop talking. I have said everything

0:27

I need to say, but then I guess

0:29

I get nervous, and the words, they just,

0:31

they keep spilling out, and it's like my-

0:33

Or as a fearless Joe March from the

0:35

BBC's Little Women. I need to not

0:37

live out my entire life in the tiny town where I

0:40

was born. You might also

0:42

think of Maya as the daughter of Ethan

0:44

Haak and Uma Thurman, but Maya isn't

0:46

a kid anymore. She's in her mid-20s now. I

0:49

just saw her in Wes Anderson's latest

0:51

movie, Asteroid City, where she plays a

0:53

kinda buttoned-up school teacher. As

0:56

you know, boys and girls, your parents arrived

0:58

late last night by military helicopter. They've been

1:00

sequestered in that metal hut over there for

1:02

the past several hours while they were- And

1:04

in a new biopic called Wildcat, Maya portrays

1:06

a tortured Flannery O'Connor. Dear God, please,

1:09

I can never seem to escape myself unless I'm

1:12

right. She's

1:14

also a singer-songwriter. In May, she'll put

1:16

out her third album, Chaos Angel. Here's

1:19

a single from it called Missing Out.

1:22

Missing out, missing out, missing out.

1:24

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

1:26

whoa. Maya hopped on a

1:29

call with me in her downtime from shooting Stranger

1:31

Things. When we asked her

1:33

to pick an essay for this

1:35

special modern love anniversary series we're

1:37

doing, she chose one called, Our

1:39

Kinder, Gentler, Nobody Moves Out Divorce

1:41

by Jordana Jacobs. It's a

1:43

story about a couple that keeps living together after they

1:46

break up for the sake of their kid. When

1:49

Maya was little, her own famous parents

1:51

went through a very public, very tumultuous

1:53

divorce. It made headlines. But

1:56

outside the spotlight, Maya had to do something so

1:58

many kids of divorce have to do. do navigate

2:01

a life split between two different homes.

2:04

Today, she opens up about that time

2:07

and how it affected her work, her

2:09

relationships, and the way she thinks about love

2:11

now. Maya

2:16

Hawk, welcome to Modern Love. Oh,

2:19

thank you so much, Anna. I couldn't be happier to be

2:21

here. So you have

2:23

said in some interviews

2:25

that you have a kind of nervous habit. You've said

2:28

that when you're anxious, you talk

2:30

a lot and you talk very

2:32

fast. Does that still happen for you? Totally.

2:35

I mean, you'll probably see

2:38

it today even, but it does.

2:40

Honestly, it happens more than ever

2:42

doing press. I want to make

2:45

sure that they understand my exact

2:47

point of view. And I think

2:50

if I was smarter, I would get

2:52

quiet and try to zero in on what

2:54

I thought, and then say like

2:56

one perfect concise sentence. But how hard

2:58

is that? Yeah, it's very difficult. So

3:01

instead, I just kind of talk until

3:03

I get to the thing that I mean. And eventually you

3:05

do get there. And eventually I do get there. You've

3:08

also said in interviews that this kind

3:10

of chatter that you do has followed

3:12

you into your work. And the

3:15

writers of Stranger Things noticed it. So they gave

3:17

your character on the show, Robin, a bunch

3:19

of monologues. Do you find

3:21

that a lot of yourself ends up in

3:24

your onscreen roles or are you stepping into

3:26

a totally new personality when you're

3:28

performing? I

3:31

think it's really depends. An

3:33

interesting thing about television is that because

3:35

you play the character for so long,

3:38

it's actually more important, I think,

3:41

that they take on some qualities

3:43

of you and

3:45

also more inevitable that they will,

3:48

because the writers are actively writing while

3:50

you are shooting. So they are getting

3:53

to know the actor and the performer

3:55

as they are creating their story. Yeah.

3:58

And So. There is

4:00

a blurring. Of the lines lit

4:03

both inspires the writers. I was

4:05

like as know you better and.

4:07

You kind of don't wanna be in

4:09

a situation where I'll eat my words

4:12

on this some day, but where you're

4:14

working for a year on a character

4:16

that requires you to not be yourself

4:19

to play because then you kind of.

4:21

Lose a year of your life a

4:24

little bit. I did a movie. A

4:26

last year old Wild cat was

4:29

playing center O'connor who's very depressed

4:31

and lonely and dark and. I'm

4:34

in no way a method actor, but even

4:36

when you're not the shadow of the person

4:38

they are playing it starts to overtake you.

4:40

Like when I was shooting that I felt

4:42

like the lonely as person in the world

4:45

smile and if you're shooting for up a

4:47

months that's fine. But if you're working for

4:49

year, I don't really want to feel like

4:51

the loneliest person in the world for a

4:54

year and I would much rather feel like

4:56

a. Babbling Intelligence

4:58

funny with our cat

5:00

Sexism Buffoon you are.

5:03

Joking obviously, but feeling.

5:05

Like the loneliest person in the

5:08

world. sounds really hard. How did

5:10

you panic? clog yourself? back some

5:13

that. Well

5:15

one. Great way is to come up

5:18

with a new thing to do right

5:20

away. And so as the day after

5:22

we wraps I went back to New

5:24

York City and I started touring ah

5:26

my last record and so I went

5:28

right into rehearsals and right into a

5:30

new feedback loop which is my band

5:32

who are so my oldest friends and

5:34

so I'm a big part of how

5:36

I think we remember who we are

5:38

as people. is our community reminding us

5:40

who we were. And who we

5:42

want to be. I.

5:45

Went directly from Philly the lonely person

5:47

the world to being on a tour

5:49

bus with my for favorite foods and

5:51

so. That. Was pretty easy transition

5:53

to get out of the blues I will say. I

5:56

hear you built my of that the modern

5:58

on as. You treasury. today is

6:01

called Our Kinder, Gentler, Nobody

6:03

Moves Out Divorce, and

6:05

it's by Jordana Jacobs. Without any spoilers,

6:07

the title kind of indicates it's

6:09

about an unconventionally closed living situation

6:12

between two divorcing people. Can

6:14

you tell me before you read why you

6:16

chose this essay? Yeah,

6:19

I chose it because it's a subject

6:21

of extreme interest to me.

6:24

My parents got divorced when I was a kid,

6:27

and I'm under no illusions,

6:30

or I wonder, slightly fewer illusions. I

6:32

still have some illusions of

6:35

the enduring eternal Cinderella love

6:37

story. Sure. And so it

6:40

seemed to me that maybe

6:43

one of the better ways to go into

6:45

a long-term relationship is not

6:47

just thinking about how you're going to fall

6:49

in love, but if you did break up,

6:51

how would you handle that? And

6:53

are you with someone who you think you could

6:55

have a good breakup with? So

6:58

I've just been really interested in how all

7:00

the different ways to get divorced, and is

7:02

there a good way? Or are they all

7:05

bad? I love this

7:07

framing that it's sort of a falling out of

7:09

love story or figuring out how to live after

7:11

falling out of love story. I would say, I

7:13

want to hear you read

7:15

this thing, so whenever you're ready... Great.

7:19

Our Kinder, Gentler, Nobody Moves

7:21

Out Divorce by Jordana Jacobs.

7:31

When my ex-husband's girlfriend stepped out of the

7:33

bathroom wrapped in a towel, beads of water

7:35

dripping from her brown hair, she ran into me,

7:38

the ex-wife, dashing from

7:40

the bedroom they often share with my ex-husband's

7:42

dirty clothes in my arms. Hi,

7:45

I was just getting his, I

7:47

said before scurrying back downstairs where I was doing

7:50

our laundry. I can

7:52

think of few moments that better capture that time

7:54

in our lives. Me, with my

7:56

ex's, pungent laundry in my arms, trying

7:58

to disappear as if I were a girl. were the maid

8:01

to a volatile celebrity. For

8:04

two people who need a prefix of negation to

8:06

refer to each other, my ex and I have

8:08

had a rather porous boundary between

8:10

my place and his. He

8:12

and I live on separate floors of a two-family

8:15

house in Brooklyn. Our eight-year-old

8:17

son can run upstairs to beg his father to

8:19

let him play Minecraft and run downstairs to have

8:21

the Cheerios he likes with me. I

8:24

dip into my ex's apartment when a recipe calls for

8:26

chia seeds, and he knocks on my door when I

8:29

need help resetting the clock that's too high for me

8:31

to reach. We

8:36

have been like this for more than two years. Technically

8:39

we're still married, although we've filed for

8:41

divorce. Some of the neighbors

8:43

still seem to think we're together. The

8:45

kindly pharmacist always asks for updates and

8:47

sends his regards. But

8:50

we aren't a couple. We no longer

8:52

share a bed, no longer smooch, no longer take

8:54

turns making the salad, no longer

8:56

give each other heartfelt back rubs, no

8:59

longer dream of trips to Italy, no longer put

9:01

our arms around each other in public, no

9:03

longer fight about the shades being crooked,

9:05

no longer outsource our intimacy to Netflix,

9:08

no longer write checks to a couple's counselor,

9:10

no longer hope to fix it. But

9:13

for a while we were still enmeshed in each

9:15

other's lives, which is why I

9:17

was caught in the act of doing a wifely

9:19

chore by the woman with whom he is building

9:22

intimacy and trust. After

9:24

that, we decided the division

9:26

between our places needed some clearer

9:28

boundaries. Some things had

9:30

to change, including laundry duty.

9:35

It can be difficult to imagine feelings or

9:37

arrangements that you don't have language for. For

9:40

example, learning the word schadenfreude, to name

9:42

that dark feeling within yourself felt to

9:44

me like the pleasure of

9:46

tasting an entirely new cuisine. When

9:48

I learned that word, I was not only relieved

9:50

of the shame of that feeling, I

9:53

could also laugh at myself for it. We

9:57

don't have the right vocabulary for our

9:59

relationships our former spouses. The

10:01

term X is loaded. The symbol X

10:04

itself is a crossing out, as

10:06

if by getting married and then divorced you made

10:08

a mistake that needs scratching out with our big

10:10

red pen. Or maybe

10:13

the X is a coming together, the

10:15

meeting point of two diagonal lines, and

10:18

then splitting apart. But like

10:20

many X's we share a child. We

10:22

never fully split. Unlike

10:28

many X's we share a checking account

10:31

and a household. My

10:33

X is the source of the Y

10:35

chromosome that made our son. He

10:37

makes music videos with our child, came

10:39

on the piano, the boy on the drums, and

10:42

takes him camping for days at a time. My

10:45

X lives upstairs from me, encourages

10:48

me to date, texts me CDC updates,

10:50

discusses the boundaries between our apartments so

10:52

he has a chance at building a

10:54

loving relationship with his girlfriend, whom

10:56

I like. And he texts me from the

10:59

grocery store to see if I need anything. Our

11:05

marriage didn't work, but we

11:07

made the most of our separation. When

11:13

I was a child in the 80s, divorce meant

11:15

war. If children weren't the

11:18

weapons, they were the casualties, custody battles,

11:20

friends choosing sides, lawyers as strategies, generals,

11:22

Kramer versus Kramer waking up in a

11:24

holiday inn to your mother's declaration that

11:27

she was divorcing your no good father.

11:30

A father denied visitation rights after the mother

11:32

convinced the judge she was unfit. Children

11:35

of my generation, generation X

11:37

coincidentally, were raised on pails

11:39

about the X's morning stench,

11:42

their ineptitude in the kitchen, their refusal

11:44

to cough up alimony payments. These

11:47

days we have our mediators. We

11:50

get to keep our friends. We

11:52

don't abuse our children with hate. It's

11:55

a kinder and gentler time. My

11:58

ex's girlfriend has moved in upstairs. Hence

12:00

I have stopped doing my ex's laundry,

12:02

and I no longer find fine strands of

12:05

his silver hair coiled around my leggings. Nor

12:08

do I run upstairs to pick up my work from

12:10

the household printer which lives upstairs, or grab

12:13

almond butter from my ex's pantry when I've run

12:15

low, or check that our son

12:17

has enough socks up there. Now

12:19

that my ex has a partner, a

12:21

person who must reconcile herself to this

12:24

newfangled form of co-parenting, I

12:26

no longer cross the threshold of their

12:28

apartment uninvited. There's much

12:30

more texting. Yes,

12:33

I was talked to with a

12:35

lot of wincing and unnecessary apologies.

12:38

My ex explains that I can't

12:40

just run into their apartment willy-nilly

12:43

anymore. I can be

12:45

a little dense, but I'm not so far

12:47

gone that I don't understand that protecting the

12:49

couple's privacy is essential to the cultivation of

12:51

their relationship. I know and

12:54

regret that having the

12:56

ex-wife live downstairs costs them.

13:01

Of course, there are romantic costs on

13:03

both sides. This is dating when

13:05

your ex-husband shares a two-family home with you.

13:10

A man comes over, leans in for

13:12

a first kiss, and hears your son

13:14

pip-patting in the apartment above. He

13:17

tries to ignore it, but he can't help but think

13:19

the father of her child is directly

13:21

upstairs from us. You're

13:24

looking good tonight, and though you have little

13:27

control over it, your charm has made an

13:29

appearance. Still, nothing

13:31

kills the moment like the footfalls of an ex

13:33

on the floor above. Can

13:36

they hear us? Your date asks, panting.

13:39

Not at all, your answer, kissing his neck.

13:43

I can hear them, he whispers. Yes,

13:46

but not the words, right? Just sounds?

13:49

Okay, he says. Okay. The

13:53

next time you meet, he says, let's just

13:55

be friends. At

14:01

times a magnification of your

14:03

loneliness. Is evening. You're.

14:05

Cooking and listening to podcasts as

14:07

much. For a company. As for

14:09

stimulation. Otherwise, it's unusually

14:12

quiet and your apartment your access

14:14

taken your son upstate for a

14:16

few days and there's no one to

14:18

beg you to play Minecraft. His

14:21

girlfriend stay behind. And you can hear

14:24

her voice of stairs but not her

14:26

words. Chances. Are good that

14:28

see. And. Your ex are talking. Intimacy.

14:31

You are reminded atheists without

14:34

you. Sodas Love.

14:36

Your the odd one out. But.

14:40

You also get what you pay for. Because.

14:43

You love your child. Because.

14:46

Being the primary parent makes sense

14:48

for your family because. You're

14:50

access still as hilarious as

14:52

ever because his girlfriend is

14:54

kind and fun and playful

14:56

with your child because you

14:58

choose love, overheat. And

15:00

well, Orcs over needless suffering. You

15:03

stretch your imagination. Disease

15:05

in the script resolved. a better

15:08

prepare future date. For the unusual

15:10

situation except that he would have

15:12

to contend with loneliness. Either way,

15:15

honor new boundaries and make up

15:17

the guidelines as you go. Even

15:20

if you don't have the words or the

15:22

script, My.

15:25

Son asks. And my

15:28

sleeping here tonight. Yes,

15:30

he sleeping downstairs with me, but he

15:32

forgot his book. A child

15:34

is. The only one of us who has free

15:36

run of the building. He

15:39

runs Xerox's apartment where the couple is

15:41

that the kitchen table having dinner. You

15:43

can hear his little voice. And

15:45

their miss her voice is respond. The.

15:48

Camera pulls back. The

15:50

building is like set of a play where you can

15:52

see through the fourth wall. To

15:54

people are having dinner at the kitchen

15:56

table in the top floor one is

15:59

below states left. Washing.

16:01

The dishes. You see

16:03

a child running down the stairs. A

16:05

book in hand, My

16:14

A would the feel like. To read you did such

16:16

a beautiful to other. Oh.

16:22

To me, it's. Pretty heartbreaking.

16:26

But it also. Reminds

16:29

me of the truth that

16:31

in any situation you choose

16:33

your suffering. I can

16:36

remember who's quoted. As I'm embarrassed. But

16:38

loneliness is hard. Relationships are

16:40

hard. You pick what kind

16:42

of hard you prefer. And

16:45

see clearly has chosen.

16:48

The kind of hard that.

16:51

Actually, Welcomes a lot of

16:53

love and a little bit

16:56

less loneliness and less isolation

16:58

and paranoia and demonization. Then

17:00

that's the version that she

17:02

describes from her parents' generation.

17:04

It is actually lonelier to

17:07

hate someone than it is

17:09

to miss them. So

17:11

choosing the pain of missing over the pain

17:14

of hatred. Seems like

17:16

a much better choice. To me. But

17:19

it's still very moving in and the. It's.

17:22

I think does a great job

17:24

of not idealizing the conscious uncoupling,

17:26

or idealizing the relationship with really

17:29

showing the way that is is.

17:32

Her best option. More

17:38

from my heart after the break. In

17:48

celebration of the tendency to let

17:50

since one hundred anniversary, this forecast

17:53

is supported by taxi. to

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their attire a glass miss america nice if you don't

17:59

know or so So it's true stories that

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18:05

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And we teamed up with the New York Times

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19:06

Maya, you just read a modern love

19:08

essay by Jordana Jacobs, where she and

19:10

her ex stay living in the same

19:12

house, even after they split up. As

19:16

someone who experienced your own

19:18

parents getting divorced very publicly at

19:20

that when you were young, would

19:23

this have been like the

19:25

dream situation for you having

19:27

your parents split up but

19:30

not move apart? I

19:32

think the dream situation is captured by the film

19:34

Parent Trap. Secret

19:38

Twin. Yeah, Secret Twin, get your parents

19:41

back together. But I

19:43

think this would have been a pretty good secondary

19:45

dream. I mean, I remember

19:47

so many hard

19:50

days and fights about like packing your

19:53

bag and you forgot this medicine and

19:55

you have to go back and get

19:57

it and Sunday goodbyes. Then

20:00

the whole day is gone because it's all the transition

20:02

days where everyone is in

20:05

strife. And I remember this

20:07

funny conversation that I had

20:09

with my dad where I

20:11

wanted to go to a party with my friends. And

20:14

he was like, but this is our weekend. This

20:16

is our special time. This is our one weekend.

20:19

And I was like, every weekend can't

20:21

be special. They're

20:23

all my weekends. And you get every

20:26

other one. And my mom gets every other one. And

20:29

I know that that's hard, but

20:31

that makes it so that every one

20:33

of my weekends is special family time.

20:35

And I need to build my friendships.

20:37

This seems like a better way

20:40

of being less

20:42

possessive over your child

20:45

and allowing your child to have

20:47

some more consistency and normalcy

20:50

in their life. So, Dardana's

20:53

living situation does seem like an unusually

20:56

stable arrangement for her son. But

20:58

in your case, you know, you talked

21:01

about all of that

21:03

stressful shuttling between your mom

21:05

and your dad. How

21:07

do you think that affected you as you got older?

21:11

I think initially in my

21:13

late teens and very early

21:15

20s, up until the pandemic sort

21:17

of, and then I went through a big mental

21:20

reset in that time period, I think. But I

21:22

was fixated on

21:25

building my own family. I

21:27

was completely obsessed with

21:30

like, I have to find a partner, and I

21:32

have to get married, and I have to have

21:34

kids really soon. And then

21:36

we'll have Christmas at my house, and everybody can

21:38

be invited. And they can decide whether or not

21:40

they want to come. And I'm going

21:42

to be the home base. I'm going to take control

21:45

over the concept of family by

21:47

building my own and letting people meet

21:49

me on my terms. And

21:52

then thankfully, I did not get married and have

21:54

a child. And instead, I was

21:56

able to sort of recalibrate and being like,

21:58

oh, I don't

22:00

need to build

22:03

a family immediately. I don't

22:05

need to build a revenge family. I

22:08

need to build a

22:10

relationship to myself where I can be my

22:12

own parent and where

22:14

I don't need reinforcements

22:17

outside of myself. I need to

22:19

reinforce myself. I'm

22:21

very glad I don't have a revenge family. You

22:25

know, I wonder if this shift

22:27

that you're talking about in your personal life also

22:30

followed you into your creative life. Did

22:32

it impact the roles you were taking

22:34

or the songs you were writing? Well,

22:38

I left school early. I

22:41

dropped out of drama school. And I think

22:43

that part of that decision had to do

22:45

with the concept of revenge family. Like I

22:47

wanna be an adult. I don't wanna take

22:49

money from anyone. I want a job. I

22:52

want my own apartment. I'm adulting myself now.

22:54

And I tried to do it young and

22:56

fast and hard. I

22:58

think that I then through

23:01

the pandemic actually

23:03

allowed myself to be a kid. I

23:06

moved back home and I went back

23:08

and forth from my parents' homes during

23:11

the pandemic on my

23:13

own terms. And something

23:18

healed. And my

23:20

relationship to even my art

23:22

became less like I

23:24

have to make money. I have to be

23:27

successful. I have to

23:29

build this life into like, whoa, I actually

23:31

love this. The

23:33

reason that I wanted to go to drama school in the

23:35

first place was because I

23:37

love this work. And I

23:39

love art. And I wanna do

23:41

it in the pandemic. I wanna do it when no

23:43

one's watching. I wanna read plays with my friends over

23:46

the phone and my kind

23:48

of spark for my why

23:50

I was doing what I was doing kind of

23:53

healed in my letting myself

23:55

be reparented. I'm

23:57

so happy that you're on the other

23:59

side. of that and

24:01

it sounds like you are really thriving

24:04

creatively. I

24:07

want to talk about your music

24:09

now. You have a new album coming

24:11

out in May. Yeah, yeah. It's called

24:13

Chaos Angel and I

24:15

know we can't hear it yet but because

24:17

this is Modern Love, I have

24:20

to ask, are there any love songs that we

24:22

can look forward to on the album? Maybe

24:26

the love song I'm most proud of writing is

24:28

the title track Chaos Angel because there's this

24:30

thing that came into my head which

24:33

was all my relationships went in this pattern

24:35

of crushes, romance,

24:37

commitments, and then apologies. That

24:41

song is a big love song about wanting

24:43

to break out of that chaos loop and

24:46

then kind of feeling like you do. I think

24:49

I write mostly love songs about

24:51

all different kinds of love. I mean I remember

24:54

when I learned how many of

24:56

the most famous love songs were actually

24:58

about people's children there's like

25:00

a long list. Well, the

25:02

album honestly sounds very Modern Love. Well,

25:05

maybe it should become the Modern Love official album

25:07

of Modern Love. I think we should change this

25:09

song. I think you're totally right. Thank you so

25:11

much. Thank you so much. Maya,

25:14

thank you so much. What a lovely conversation. I'm so glad

25:16

I had the chance to talk to you today. Me

25:19

too. You rock and your podcast rocks

25:21

and that story rocks. Thank you so

25:23

much. Hey

25:28

listeners, be sure to check out Maya's

25:31

new album Chaos Angel when it

25:33

drops on May 31st. Next

25:36

week's guest doesn't make movies or

25:38

write songs but she's turned couple

25:40

therapy into an art form. You

25:42

won't want to miss my conversation

25:44

with Esther Perel. We grow up

25:46

learning to be silent about sex

25:48

and never talk about it and

25:50

then suddenly we are expected to

25:52

talk about it with the person

25:54

we love. Reva

26:00

Goldberg, Davis Land, and Emily

26:02

Lang. It's edited by our

26:05

executive producer, Jen Pliant. The

26:07

Modern Love theme music is by

26:09

Dan Powell. Original music by Marion

26:12

Lozano, Pat McCusker, Rowan Mimisto, and

26:14

Dan Powell. This episode was

26:16

mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Our show

26:18

is recorded by Maddie Masiello. Digital

26:21

production by Mahima Chablani and Nell

26:23

Golokhale. The Modern

26:25

Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia

26:27

Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

26:30

I'm Anna Merton. Thanks for listening.