0:03

But when you

0:04

start looking at a lot of the

0:06

technologies and trends and how they're being utilized

0:08

today, though I suppose there is that

0:10

existential risk out

0:13

there in the longer horizon from

0:15

superintelligence or AI, the near-term

0:18

problem is in fact us, right? How

0:22

do we manage forces at scale when warfare

0:24

is being conducted at machine speed? Can

0:27

you do air-tasking orders? Can you coordinate

0:31

frequencies and communications at the

0:34

scale and speed when you have hypersonic

0:37

weapons, energy weapons, cyber moving

0:39

at machine speed? Hey,

0:43

welcome back to the Modern War Institute podcast.

0:46

I'm Jon Amble, editorial director at MWI,

0:48

and I'm joined on this episode by August Cole.

0:51

He is the co-author, along with Peter Singer, of a new

0:53

book that has just been released called Burn In. It's

0:56

a novel about technology, and really about

0:58

humans' relationship with technology. But

1:01

although it's a work of fiction, it is really well

1:03

researched, and the pretty remarkable technologies

1:05

it includes are actually things that, as you can

1:07

see in the hundreds of footnotes included in the book, already

1:10

exist in some form or are starting to emerge,

1:13

which gives it a sort of hybrid fiction-nonfiction

1:16

feel. In the conversation we talk

1:18

about the book and its plot, but August also

1:20

discusses the way he conceptualizes fiction

1:23

as a tool with which to think about and even

1:25

better understand the world and the future,

1:28

including the future of war. I think

1:30

it's a great discussion and I hope you enjoy it. Before

1:32

we get to it though, a couple quick notes. First,

1:35

if you aren't yet following MWI on social media,

1:37

find us on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. It

1:40

is a great way for us to stay in contact with

1:42

the incredible community of listeners and readers

1:44

who share our interests in topics related

1:46

to modern war. And lastly, as always,

1:49

what you hear in this episode are the views of the participants

1:51

and don't represent those of West Point, the Army,

1:53

or any other agency of the US government. Alright,

1:56

here's my conversation with August Cole.

2:05

August, thank you so much for joining us. John,

2:08

it's great to be with you. So

2:11

you have a new book out, a new

2:13

novel co-authored with Peter Singer.

2:17

And that's really kind of what I wanted to have you on to talk about

2:20

because I had an opportunity to

2:22

read it and found it fascinating and

2:26

sort of illuminating and really kind of clever

2:28

way to think through some things that a lot of people in the

2:30

defense community, the defense space and the military

2:32

are talking about, but

2:35

sometimes in kind of an abstract sense. And

2:37

the book as a novel sort of makes it real

2:39

in certain ways. So I really

2:41

kind of want to talk to you a little bit about the process

2:44

and your objectives when you sat down to

2:46

write it, if you don't mind. So

2:48

the book is called Burn In. I wonder if

2:50

you can give kind of, you know, without giving you any spoilers,

2:52

what's the sort of elevator pitch that the

2:55

idea really kind of developed around

2:58

when you first, you and Peter first started talking about this?

3:01

With Burn In, what we were trying

3:03

to do was blend fiction

3:05

and nonfiction for this new kind

3:08

of book

3:09

that leads you into this world

3:11

in which a FBI agent is hunting

3:13

a terrorist through Washington

3:15

DC, you know, a decade or two

3:18

from now.

3:19

But unlike your conventional counterterrorism

3:21

story,

3:22

this FBI agent is paired with a robot partner

3:24

which has been forced upon her as

3:27

a kind of policy

3:29

move. And it comes in the midst

3:31

of this moment in which America

3:34

is really struggling to

3:36

manage a society that has been

3:38

fundamentally transformed at every level from the household

3:41

to commercially

3:44

by automation and AI. So

3:48

when you say that, you know, kind of blend

3:50

fiction and nonfiction, I mean,

3:53

it is very much a novel, right? I

3:55

mean, that's the subtitle is a novel

3:57

of the real robotic revolution. Can you explain a little

3:59

bit more?

3:59

you mean by blending fiction and nonfiction?

4:03

When Pete Singer and I wrote Ghostly,

4:05

we felt like that if we were going to

4:08

really stretch the elastic band of credulity

4:11

and posit a Chinese sneak attacking

4:13

Hawaii and setting off a third world

4:15

war, we had to anchor

4:17

the book in the world,

4:20

not just as it is, but as it will be, not as we

4:22

want it to be. So all the technology, all

4:25

the trends in Ghostly were real. And I think this

4:27

helped underscore the credibility of the story

4:30

that otherwise could have seemed fantastical. So

4:32

with Burnin, we took a similar approach where

4:35

we looked at hundreds of different technologies

4:38

and trends and fuse

4:40

them together into a techno thriller. And make

4:42

no mistake, Burnin is fundamentally a thriller.

4:45

But we're allowing people to see what

4:48

is ahead and what is going to happen in

4:50

our politics, our economy, with security, even

4:53

how they're going to be parenting in this

4:55

world in which some of the basic assumptions

4:58

that we have today about what role will

5:00

work now in our lives in the future, what

5:02

about privacy in a total data

5:04

society?

5:05

How will we think about the kinds

5:08

of questions that have to do

5:10

today with political leadership

5:12

and partisan politics in 10 to 20

5:14

years? Is that system going to be equipped

5:17

to deal with really existential questions about capitalism?

5:20

And so what we're doing is we're building

5:22

this world that we hope is compelling, using

5:24

the traditional approaches of plots and characters.

5:27

But we're also very mindful of

5:30

the opportunity to kind of help close this

5:32

gap, as you mentioned, in understanding about

5:34

technologies like machine learning and AI.

5:36

So the hope is you can read a book that'll

5:38

keep you up all night because it's so engrossing,

5:41

it's either scaring you or it's exciting. And

5:43

then the next day you can go to work and have a

5:46

better understanding about AI

5:48

and robotics are going to transform our world.

5:51

So you said it's a techno thriller and technology

5:54

is clearly a centerpiece

5:57

of the story, especially

5:59

sort of mankind's relationship with technology.

6:02

But there's also this, it's set against

6:04

this backdrop of a political

6:06

crisis, a social crisis really in this country.

6:09

What was the reasoning for doing that? Because presumably

6:11

you could explore some of these without that

6:14

backdrop,

6:16

and yet you chose deliberately to have that in there. Why

6:19

would you do that? The ways

6:21

that we think of the human

6:23

relationship with robots, especially

6:26

in how, for

6:27

example, they're going to shape our future. We often

6:29

get locked into a Terminator type narrative

6:32

in which the

6:36

robot becomes self-aware and AI

6:38

conspires to wipe out humanity. But

6:40

when you start looking at a lot of the technologies

6:43

and trends and how they're being utilized today,

6:46

though I suppose there is that existential

6:49

risk out there in the longer horizon

6:52

from superintelligence or AI,

6:55

the near-term problem is in fact us. We're

6:58

on the cusp of something that is more like

7:01

an industrial revolution, but has these

7:03

really transformational aspects throughout

7:06

society and is happening

7:08

to us in a sense

7:10

at a time when we seem incredibly ill-equipped

7:13

to handle really the most fundamental aspects

7:15

of what we would normally expect from

7:17

a functional and prosperous democracy.

7:20

The COVID crisis and the tragedy

7:23

that it's becoming

7:24

I think is revealing that we still have

7:26

some massive holes in our

7:29

social safety net that are

7:31

going to create questions around

7:34

how resilient can we be in the face of not

7:36

just a pandemic, but other kind of systemic

7:38

shocks.

7:40

So in really trying to encompass

7:43

the whole of society picture,

7:46

thinking about

7:47

the way that technology is going to influence

7:49

politics, for example,

7:51

seems to be a really important element that's missing

7:53

for a lot of the conversation today. And

7:55

even if we can identify discrete ways that say

7:57

algorithms and social media are shaping, you know,

8:00

actions in the real world or perceptions

8:02

and emotions online,

8:04

there's yet another

8:06

layer to this that when you start to peel

8:08

back

8:09

or really dig into, it's

8:12

in fact more troubling. In building the world

8:14

of burn-in, our hope was to

8:17

really put people in the middle of that so they could

8:19

be thinking about when I

8:21

wake up in that world, what would I be eating?

8:24

What would I be smelling? Really engaging that sensory

8:26

aspect that I think really good fiction can do.

8:29

But at the same time, prompting folks to

8:32

wrestle with a lot of these fundamental questions that

8:34

they may not have time or had the attention

8:36

to otherwise do. When you're

8:38

giving someone a novel, I think they're even better equipped

8:41

to do that because they've actually experienced a lot

8:43

of this from a character's point of view rather

8:45

than just reading it analytically like a white paper

8:48

or something like that.

8:50

It strikes me that the

8:54

story is about technology, I mentioned

8:56

this before, but it's really about our

8:58

relationship with technology. You

9:01

also seem to have made the deliberate choice of

9:03

making the protagonist, Agent Keegan,

9:05

this FBI agent, somebody who seems quite

9:08

skeptical of technology at various

9:10

times.

9:12

Why make that decision?

9:15

One of the aspects of Agent Keegan's relationship

9:19

to technology that

9:20

I think is really important in understanding

9:23

her is the role

9:25

that she had in the Marine Corps when she was deployed

9:28

as a robot wrangler.

9:29

She has a very utilitarian approach to technology.

9:32

The

9:33

ways that we ascribe

9:35

emotional value

9:37

to inanimate objects, anyone who's ever

9:39

owned a classic car, you've seen this, is

9:42

I think going to become even more pronounced when we start

9:44

integrating the personality

9:47

traits that can go with

9:49

everything from just simply software

9:51

like Alexa or Siri, to

9:54

objects that are mobile or humanoid. under

10:00

using kind of similar operating systems where, you know,

10:02

it's typically like a voice interaction. What

10:05

we've seen already is even in the ways

10:07

that we've used robots in wartime in

10:09

the last 20 years that

10:11

there have been pack bots that

10:13

have been given, you know, essentially battlefield burials

10:16

that the emotional attachment that can

10:18

become real

10:19

to a machine is, of course, something that

10:21

is a very real and human experience. But we

10:23

wanted to have a character in

10:25

that protagonist role who

10:28

would be somewhat skeptical and would not

10:30

want to

10:31

have the sort of ultimately

10:34

aspirational kind of narrative

10:36

around technology that many of the people who, I

10:39

think, shape today what we expect

10:41

from the

10:42

different sorts of systems out there, whether they're robotic

10:44

or AI. So, you know, this

10:46

kind of utopian vision of the future is certainly not the

10:48

one that we are landing in, in, in burn-in

10:51

and finding someone who could stand within

10:53

that world and look around and kind of look

10:55

at it analytically and skeptically.

10:58

And having that skepticism be born

11:00

out of experience and not just cynicism,

11:03

I think is a really important, really important aspect

11:05

for

11:06

having a guide

11:07

to understand when you're standing on

11:09

the edge of this, you know, transformational revolution

11:11

and trying to figure out just what is going on.

11:14

So, it's interesting that

11:16

you mentioned sort of pack bots, because

11:19

there's a line in the book where

11:23

Agent Keegan is talking about her time in the

11:25

Marines and how the

11:27

Marines interacted with robots

11:29

that were quadrupeds and saying that they grew

11:31

more attached to them. And maybe it's something

11:33

about, you know, they're more similar

11:35

to our pets. There's a sense of dependency

11:38

that quadrupeds, whether, you know, it's horses

11:40

or dogs or cats or what have

11:42

you, the sort of relationship that

11:44

we have with them creates

11:47

this sort of sense of, you said

11:49

the Marines grew more

11:51

attached to them. There's kind of an intimate relationship

11:53

that builds up on an individual level.

11:57

Is that, you know,

11:59

in your opinion,

11:59

then is that sort of relationship with technology

12:02

sort of a good thing, a positive in terms of the

12:05

way that we can leverage its

12:07

advantages or is that sort of

12:09

more utilitarian mindset that Agent

12:11

Keegan at least begins with maybe

12:14

more useful?

12:15

I think it is okay to love a machine.

12:18

I mean, maybe not in the truly like romantic sense,

12:20

but we can have a strong

12:23

sort of connection with technology,

12:25

especially when it's manifest like the bots

12:28

that we talk about.

12:29

But what I feel like the most important

12:32

aspect is really understanding the role that those machines

12:34

or whether it's software, you know, play in

12:36

our human relationships. And so that

12:39

I think can become really difficult to

12:42

understand and ascertain, especially in today's

12:44

world when if you think about how we're relating

12:47

to, for example, our mobile phones,

12:50

to the social media applications and platforms,

12:53

and we're being shaped in our relationships

12:55

algorithmically, right? You know, whether it's curating

12:58

dopamine

12:59

hits, or whether it is, you know,

13:01

spooling up outrage and joy,

13:03

you know, in different intervals, whether

13:05

it's A-B testing and figuring out what works at

13:08

scale with different concepts. So

13:10

that's all in the virtual and kind of software domain.

13:12

Imagine when we start applying or seeing people apply

13:14

those kinds of capabilities and technologies to

13:16

things in the physical world.

13:18

That is a fundamentally different level of human

13:20

experience that I think we haven't really come to grips

13:22

with. And in the context of the future

13:24

of conflict,

13:26

you know, one of the really interesting aspects about

13:28

the understanding of what

13:31

the role of the robot will be in the future of

13:33

war

13:34

is, of course, you know, still open

13:36

for debate and for contest. In

13:39

Burnin, you know, we really, I think, tried to

13:41

shed a little bit of light on that and talk about some

13:43

of the trend lines that we see in that, which is that,

13:45

you know, battle bots will be small.

13:48

We won't see these kind of hulking, titanic,

13:50

large mecca in

13:52

the near term here that

13:55

will be most useful, but rather insect-like,

13:58

you know, as you said, quite a bit.

13:59

underpeds, dog-like size machines

14:02

are probably more practical, less

14:04

vulnerable, and

14:05

more scalable, which I think is another aspect

14:08

of robotics. And a very different

14:10

kind of paradigm, if you will, than the way we acquire

14:12

and procure

14:14

complex technical systems today.

14:16

So the way that we unpack

14:19

that too, and the way that Keegan reflects on

14:21

her experience as an FBI counter-terrorism agent,

14:23

how that's informed by our military service, and

14:26

the relationship she has with TAMs, this robot,

14:28

is absolutely part of

14:30

her services as a Marine, as

14:33

being

14:33

the framework through which she understands

14:36

what's happening around her and what's going to be happening

14:39

ahead.

14:41

So there's a good example.

14:45

There

14:47

are many of these micro robots that

14:49

are doing small tasks that are enabling humans to

14:56

do things that humans have already done, always done

14:58

already, but do it a little bit better, a little bit faster.

15:02

We've published at MWI, we've had a number

15:04

of articles about the role of AI

15:07

on the future battlefield. And the consensus

15:09

is that it's not going to be

15:11

our robots fighting their robots

15:14

and taking

15:15

over the

15:17

core functions of war fighting, rather

15:20

enabling better human

15:23

war fighting. Is that the sense that you get

15:25

in from, I

15:26

guess, the research? There are 28 pages of

15:29

a footnote to this, so there's clearly a lot of research

15:31

done. Is that your sense?

15:33

Oh, that's a great question. The

15:35

way that Keegan and this investigation

15:37

that she's undertaking,

15:39

and

15:40

the way that she learns

15:43

to

15:44

change the relationship that she has

15:46

with this robot TAMs from the beginning,

15:48

and how the software itself and

15:50

the robot evolves throughout, you're

15:53

really, I think, creating

15:55

that

15:56

storyline in the book, trying to figure out, are

15:59

you just writing

15:59

like a human to human dialogue,

16:02

a human to human kind of emotional

16:05

relationship, or you really actually understanding

16:07

a human-machine relationship. And

16:10

I think fundamental, just like with the way we relate to one another,

16:12

is that arc of change. Our relationships

16:14

do have beginnings, middles,

16:16

and ends. And I think to some

16:19

extent, the question about the role

16:21

of machines in the future of war

16:23

is going to reflect that both individually, but also collectively.

16:26

The way that machines are

16:29

adopted and implemented in civilian

16:32

applications, whether it's kids

16:34

with ever more sophisticated gadgets and toys,

16:37

whether

16:37

it's life-saving octocopters

16:39

that are being used by EMS services, that's

16:42

going to fundamentally change our expectations too of what happens

16:44

during conflict with bots.

16:46

And so I think that almost

16:49

holistic view, I think is really, really important

16:51

in making sure that

16:53

we are

16:54

using the same kind of analytical

16:56

mindset that we would

16:58

with other aspects of the way civilian

17:01

societies produced fighting forces, that

17:03

we do that with robotics too. And

17:06

so as we kind of researched this and looked at

17:08

how people relate emotionally, but also the boundaries

17:10

in terms of what

17:11

is possible technologically speaking,

17:13

because everything in burn-in is real or in development,

17:16

just like with ghost fleet. And the hope

17:18

is that by anchoring in that reality,

17:21

when we portray these often

17:24

fantastical things happening,

17:26

people will know in fact that that is very

17:28

much in our near future. And from

17:30

that, then be able to kind of think through some of this for themselves

17:32

and really unpack what

17:34

they think about that very really important question

17:36

you identified.

17:38

I think that decision to root it in reality,

17:41

but put it far enough into the future that it is substantially

17:43

different or recognizably different than kind

17:46

of our current experiences is

17:48

a really unique one. One

17:50

of the advantages to

17:52

say science fiction especially is that sort of

17:55

breaks us free of the constraints that

17:57

are placed on us by the real world and our perceptions

17:59

of the

17:59

world and, you know, Starship Troopers,

18:02

Ender's Game, these things that kind of let

18:04

us like burst through those boundaries

18:08

and explore some things on kind of a different

18:10

level. On the flip side, you've got,

18:13

you know, say especially fiction that's written

18:15

in the here and the now

18:19

that is really kind of

18:21

forced to stay within those boundaries. You

18:24

kind of are able to push through a little bit but still

18:26

make it something that we can connect with. And to demonstrate

18:28

that, again, footnotes showing, hey,

18:30

these programs already exist or they're being explored.

18:33

Was that a

18:35

deliberate choice in your experience?

18:37

Is that something that it is as unique

18:40

in the world of fiction as it seems?

18:43

Putting endnotes in a techno-thriller

18:46

still seems to be a pretty novel concept. And

18:49

when we considered the

18:51

role that they played in making Ghost Fleet a believable

18:54

story,

18:55

we were from the beginning

18:57

certain that we wanted to do the same thing with

18:59

Burn-In. You know, there's almost

19:02

a creative, right? And then there's also a, you know,

19:04

kind of an analytical, you

19:07

know, rationale behind them that I

19:09

like to kind of identify. You know, on the

19:11

analytical, I'm

19:12

able to find information

19:15

and

19:15

be fully transparent with the reader about

19:18

what role it plays in the

19:21

genesis of the story. You

19:22

know, a good example would be, you know, the job

19:25

that Keegan's husband has is

19:28

directly tied to some

19:30

of the studies that have been done about the role

19:33

of white-collar professions

19:35

in the AI era and how many of the

19:37

jobs that

19:38

people who have gone to traditionally excellent

19:40

schools and worked hard at, you

19:43

know, may be, you know, algorithmed out of existence.

19:45

So

19:46

trying to understand, if you're

19:48

reading that, why we made a choice to

19:51

make somebody, you know, an ex-lawyer or not,

19:53

I think is really important because those are the sorts

19:55

of ways we can connect with that factual

19:58

information.

19:59

On the creative side, side, the use of end notes,

20:02

again, even though it is unusual, is

20:04

a great tool because when you're really

20:07

pushing the boundaries of expectations

20:10

of what is possible or not, when someone

20:13

encounters something that they feel

20:15

like shouldn't even pass the giggle test, but

20:18

then they realize it's got an end note

20:20

right there pointing to it, it fundamentally

20:22

allows you to connect with

20:23

that experience

20:26

intellectually where you're just like, wow,

20:28

I can't believe that's real. And you can continue

20:30

to read the story

20:32

and look up that, whether you're looking

20:34

at an ebook, for example, you can do it right away, or you can flip to

20:36

the back. The thing you don't

20:38

want to do, obviously, when you're weighing

20:41

what to use an end note for or when

20:43

not to, is

20:44

you don't want to interrupt the flow of a really

20:46

great

20:47

passage. But we were very

20:49

aggressive in using end notes because so many of the technologies,

20:52

so many of the concepts too, took around AI, around

20:54

machine learning or other technological things

20:57

about cybersecurity or infrastructure or security.

20:59

We felt like we didn't want to lose that moment, that

21:01

teachable moment in the book. And so the end notes

21:04

really help us connect with

21:06

the reader in that way.

21:09

I'm glad you brought up the example of Agent

21:12

Keegan's husband because I found that really, really fascinating

21:15

on a couple of levels. Number one, what

21:17

he ends up doing when

21:20

he can no longer do

21:22

his white collar job as a lawyer is filling

21:25

a gap

21:26

that

21:28

at this point still, AI cannot

21:30

do. There's a human emotional component

21:33

to relationships that AI cannot provide. And

21:36

I think it's a really interesting window into that. But more

21:38

broadly, you sort

21:40

of paint a picture of the legal field from

21:44

what we experience now, what we expect

21:46

now, which is all about billable hours, maybe

21:49

in 15 minute increments or eight minute increments, depending

21:51

on the firm, down to

21:53

lawyers being increasingly displaced

21:56

by machines and really fighting

21:58

over, I think you were even saying, in their billable seconds,

22:02

which is really, really fascinating because there's

22:04

a corollary in the military. When

22:07

we talk about AI and robots on the battlefield,

22:09

we're talking about operational battlefield

22:12

machines that can do things kind

22:14

of on the front lines at the tip

22:16

of the spear. And yet we haven't

22:18

really explored some of those sort of

22:22

rear echelon

22:24

operational command and leadership

22:26

and strategic decision making components

22:29

that could equally be displaced. I

22:31

think that's a really fascinating window into

22:33

that. Was that sort of deliberate?

22:36

Choosing a character to understand

22:39

a macro theme is like a great

22:41

way to embody a concept in a person.

22:44

And it was very deliberate in our

22:47

creation of Keegan as a very complete

22:49

character herself who's an F... A

22:51

marine turned FBI character as an agent. She's

22:54

a parent. She's kind of watching her marriage

22:56

fall apart and watching her husband's place

22:58

in society slip every

23:01

month farther and farther from where

23:03

they both thought it was going to be.

23:07

The way that

23:08

we look out into the landscape

23:11

of work in the future

23:13

and think that automation and

23:15

job replacement happens to other

23:17

people, I think is one of the biggest blind

23:19

spots that we often have

23:21

in considering what lies ahead.

23:24

And I think that's also true in the conversation

23:26

about defense and security as well

23:28

in terms of where can technologies

23:30

that are scalable

23:33

and fundamentally game changing in terms of how

23:35

we reallocate intellectual,

23:37

political and physical effort, the

23:39

tip of the spear kind

23:41

of concept

23:42

as being the part of

23:44

the AI conversation or robotics conversation

23:47

that gets most of the airtime

23:48

probably doesn't reflect the reality of implementation

23:50

in the next five or 10 years, that the

23:53

easier on-ramps for using

23:56

these kinds of systems in logistics, in

23:59

personnel management... in intelligence

24:01

collection and analysis seems to be

24:03

a far richer, less ethically fraught,

24:06

potentially, although you could argue

24:08

there's just different issues that are being raised, that the same

24:10

pitfalls are there. And so what

24:12

we're trying to do when we, again, we have a character

24:15

that represents this trend line, is

24:18

get people to connect with that concept and idea and start

24:20

thinking about through more broadly

24:22

just beyond that one person's

24:24

future existence. And

24:27

I think the same way you look

24:29

at Keegan's husband, you could have the same

24:31

fictional explorations and that kind of ficant model

24:34

or useful fiction model of exploring the logistics

24:38

operations or, especially in a great

24:40

power conflict context, how do we

24:43

manage forces at scale when warfare

24:45

is being conducted at machine speed?

24:47

Can you do air tasking

24:49

orders? Can you coordinate frequencies

24:52

and communications at the scale

24:55

and speed when you have

24:57

hypersonic weapons, energy weapons, cyber

24:59

moving at machine speed? That

25:02

doesn't seem to be a very realistic

25:05

possibility. And so the more time

25:07

we invest in these kinds of questions, I think,

25:09

especially from that human perspective, the

25:12

better chance we have of getting ahead of these problems.

25:15

So I want to shift gears a little bit and ask

25:17

you a question, maybe

25:19

a little bit about inspiration and process.

25:23

We published a review a couple of weeks ago by

25:25

one of our senior fellows, Steve Leonard,

25:27

who was struck by

25:30

the sort of parallels between

25:33

Burnin and a short

25:35

story called A Boy and His Dog. They made a movie about

25:37

it in the 70s, but the story was by an author

25:40

named Harlan Ellison. Was that something,

25:43

were those parallels something that you were aware of when

25:45

you wrote it? Was it deliberate? And maybe

25:47

were there other sort of inspirations to kind

25:49

of help shape the story in the way that you kind of

25:52

convey some of the lessons you're trying to convey?

25:53

You know, it's funny,

25:55

I've actually seen that movie that started a very young

25:58

Don Johnson and his

26:00

dog as part of that Cold War sci-fi

26:02

canon. And I did read the book a long

26:04

time ago. No, I mean, it wasn't

26:07

really at the fore, and at least

26:10

consciously in thinking about it as a

26:12

parallel. But ultimately,

26:15

the relationship between our

26:19

human and robot

26:21

in Burnin is something that we

26:23

wanted to stand

26:24

apart and be

26:27

unique. Because one of the interesting facets of writing

26:29

about something like

26:30

a, not a sentient machine per

26:32

se, but a machine that you can have a relationship

26:35

with, is that we're doing so in an era

26:37

where we can wake up and talk to Alexa

26:39

about what our day holds in store for us. Or

26:42

my daughter will be having

26:44

Siri conversations, and it has

26:46

been in fact for years. So the uncanny

26:50

valley you're living in when you're writing about

26:52

a lot of this from a sci-fi perspective is

26:54

really interesting because you can identify all

26:56

these little threads that start pulling all around you.

26:59

And whether it's micro robotics, whether

27:01

it's this kind of, again, the software, human

27:04

relationship. I don't know if you remember

27:07

the film Herb by Spike Jones, it came out

27:09

I think five or six years ago, which I think is one of my

27:11

favorite films that really unpacks

27:13

like that human operating system relationship.

27:16

And if you can be as

27:19

a creator, getting people to so

27:21

connect with that sort of a storyline,

27:23

because that fundamentally, for example, is a love story. But

27:26

it really redefines and tests us in

27:28

terms of understanding what is love in the algorithmic

27:30

era. That's the kind of aspiration

27:33

that I have when I'm writing, not just burning, but other

27:35

short stories too, is really getting people to

27:38

place themselves into these positions

27:40

where these bigger truths

27:42

are out there and you're trying to understand

27:44

them through a narrative that has a very

27:47

real world, often gritty aspect

27:50

to it.

27:50

So you mentioned a term,

27:53

thickened. I wonder if we can kind

27:55

of unpack that within the context of of burning a little bit. The idea

27:57

is that fiction is a very, very important part of the world. a

28:00

tool with which we can better explore and understand

28:03

the world. And correct me if there's a better way of

28:05

describing it, but is that something

28:07

that I've heard you talk about it? Did

28:09

you write this book with that specifically in mind?

28:12

That is exactly how I articulate

28:15

fiction. I think it's something

28:17

that is woven throughout

28:19

the mission that I'm trying to do

28:22

right now, which is using

28:24

fiction in various ways. The

28:27

quick tag is, can you use narrative to

28:29

avoid strategic surprise? The

28:32

differentiation, I think, between a classic

28:35

science fiction

28:36

work and something that has this useful

28:38

fiction or ficant aspect to it is

28:41

how closely does it tether itself to reality?

28:44

And so,

28:45

burn-in was very much a product

28:48

of this ficant mindset.

28:50

The endnotes, as we talked about, the

28:53

technological

28:54

and trendline cornerstones

28:56

that are there in the story to

28:58

anchor not just world building, but

29:01

actual the direction of the plot and what people

29:03

do or don't do. So, it certainly

29:05

is this moment where it's something

29:07

that you can use to write

29:09

short fiction, whether it's crowdsourcing,

29:11

like the Army Mad Scientist program has done,

29:13

like MWI has showcased on its

29:15

own website, to something as big as

29:18

a novel. Because if the objective is to have this

29:20

educational aspect, when I'm

29:23

envisioning a story,

29:25

even one as big as this, I'm often thinking about what

29:27

is the ask of the reader who's going to be consuming

29:31

this? Is there something that I want them to see

29:33

differently in their world or understand better about themselves

29:35

or questions that I think they can start posing?

29:38

And so, my hope is that that

29:40

approach is

29:42

creatively credible so that people are

29:44

actually reading what you write because there's no point writing

29:47

something that no one will finish if it's not any good. So,

29:49

the hope is that you can hold those things in tension

29:52

and create something that can balance both

29:54

the useful, but also the entertaining.

29:57

And I don't think it's a bad objective to have. either

30:00

to produce something that is ultimately entertaining,

30:03

yet just packed with insights too.

30:06

Well, I don't want to give away any

30:09

sort of secrets of the plot because it's

30:11

an

30:12

enjoyable book in and of itself,

30:14

even if people aren't setting out to learn from

30:16

it, but I think they'll find that they do. But

30:19

without giving any of that away, what is it that you're hoping

30:22

readers, specifically the types of readers that say, listen

30:24

to the MWI podcast, members of the military, the defense

30:26

community, people with a keen interest

30:28

in some of these issues, what is it you're hoping

30:31

they will take away from the book?

30:34

One of the takeaways that I think is most important

30:37

for people who read Burn It is to understand

30:39

that

30:40

we are in the midst of literally

30:42

an historic revolution happening

30:44

all around us that could be as

30:48

profound as the industrial revolution

30:50

itself, if not more. And

30:53

yet, our ability to understand

30:56

what is driving that change, particularly technologies

30:58

like AI, which have this black box aspect

31:00

to it, meaning they're quite mysterious.

31:03

Even their inventors often have difficulty understanding

31:05

why software does certain things. And

31:07

so the objective

31:09

is that if you can

31:11

read a story that is fictional,

31:14

of course, but rooted in this nonfiction

31:17

framework, that you're going to have a much better sense

31:19

of understanding what is in

31:22

store. And that means not just

31:25

listening to the utopian

31:28

perspective from many people in the technology community,

31:30

but really understanding these sorts of tech trends

31:33

as they might play out and considering what

31:35

the consequences are, or the

31:37

risks are, or the threats are.

31:40

And to be able to wrap that into a thriller novel, it's

31:42

like ready made, because those are the ingredients of

31:44

a good story. And the

31:47

way that we're trying to process what

31:49

is happening all around us right now,

31:51

I think it very much speaks to that need

31:54

to be able to consider

31:56

these massive forces that are

32:00

at work right now that

32:02

when we wrote Burn-In,

32:03

you know, over the last three years, we anticipated

32:06

things like

32:08

the rapid virtualization of

32:10

medicine

32:11

or remote work in

32:14

fields as diverse and as

32:16

education to sales,

32:19

for example,

32:21

that they would take place over

32:24

five, 10, 15 years. And instead, much

32:26

of this has happened in weeks. So a lot

32:28

of the conversation now when we're at a point in America

32:31

where unemployment is at great depression levels

32:33

and a lot of the assumption by many Americans

32:36

is that things will go back to normal, that their old jobs

32:38

will be there. I don't think that's a bet

32:40

we can make collectively

32:42

or let alone individually. Moreover,

32:45

the use of data as we come

32:47

up with our societal response to this pandemic

32:50

is fundamentally rewriting

32:52

the rules about what information government

32:54

collects and how it uses it, what information

32:57

business collects and how it uses it.

32:59

And for my red team, kind

33:01

of utopian,

33:05

well, I should say I'm an optimist who stares into the abyss,

33:09

from that perspective to somebody who's thinking about bad

33:11

stuff happening a lot, thinking about

33:13

ways people can exploit not only

33:15

the gaps that society is starting to see form

33:18

in terms of the political

33:20

fissures or cultural ones right now, but also

33:23

what all that data means for

33:25

the stability and security of society, especially if it's

33:27

not well managed to handle.

33:29

So it's a lot that is being wrapped

33:31

up of course in a simple book,

33:33

but our hope is that people will connect with the story

33:35

enough that they start pulling these threads themselves.

33:40

I've long felt that it's impossible

33:42

to read a book and completely

33:45

discount the context of

33:47

your own life when you're reading it. We're

33:50

in this kind of unprecedented set of circumstances

33:52

and there are a number of lessons that you sort of touched on and

33:55

highlighted that are especially

33:57

sort of resonant today in

34:00

this context that maybe wouldn't have been if,

34:02

you know, this book had gone on and been published

34:04

and the current, you know, the sort of pandemic

34:07

circumstances hadn't

34:09

sort of emerged. So I

34:11

think readers are also going to, especially those that have

34:13

pre-ordered or are going to be reading in

34:15

the coming weeks or hopefully not too many

34:17

months, depending on how long this goes on, are

34:20

going to kind of appreciate it on a

34:22

different level

34:24

as I did. So thank you so much for joining

34:27

us for this episode of the MWAI podcast. It's

34:29

a great book. I think it's out right

34:32

around the day that this podcast, this episode

34:34

will go live. So I

34:37

hope it does well and best of luck.

34:39

Thanks again. And it's always great to be in contact

34:42

with MWAI.

34:48

Hey, thanks again for listening to the MWAI podcast.

34:51

One last thing before you go. If you aren't subscribed

34:53

to the podcast, you can find us on Apple Podcasts,

34:55

Stitcher, Spotify, and Twitter. We'll

34:58

be right back. Thanks again. All right.