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0:45

Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into

0:47

the Wizarding World fandom. I'm Andrew. I'm

0:49

Micah. And I'm Laura. And

0:52

this week we are diving head first

0:54

into Dumbledore's memories that he definitely didn't

0:56

leave accessible on purpose. Oh, why did

0:58

Laura make me say that? Because I

1:00

actually disagree. And now I just said

1:02

it out loud like I'm Ron Burgundy.

1:05

Well, you're on the record now. We

1:07

can just take that clip, take it

1:09

out of context. And now you're a

1:11

Dumbledore hater. Mission accomplished. Whoa, that

1:13

escalated quickly. Well,

1:17

to help us with today's discussion and

1:19

maybe help me defend Dumbledore is friend

1:21

of the show and a podcaster herself,

1:23

Morgan. Hi, Morgan. Welcome

1:25

to Mugglecast. Hi, I can't believe

1:27

it's been so like so many years and now

1:29

I'm actually on Mugglecast. This is this is wild.

1:32

You're a longtime listener of the show. We've been in touch

1:35

with you a lot recently. I

1:37

helped you with the launch of your podcast

1:39

and a few of us

1:41

in the hype of a podcast world have

1:43

been on your show now to tell

1:46

us about that nerd thing. Your podcast.

1:48

Yeah. Well, and I'm going to be

1:50

scheduling with Micah and I'm also recording

1:52

with Eric. So I'm like completing the

1:54

set. That nerd thing pretty much is

1:56

a show where I interview people about

1:58

the things that they're nerdy. about and

2:00

learn about their journeys into fandom. And

2:03

it's also an opportunity for me to nerd

2:05

out because I don't really get to do

2:07

that in my day job as a therapist.

2:09

And so it's just a fun place to

2:11

be creative. And thank you again, Andrew,

2:14

for all of your help with launching the podcast.

2:16

I could never have done it without you. Aw,

2:19

it was my pleasure to help you. It

2:21

was fun to talk through the ideas that

2:23

you have. Don't inflate his ego, please. Just

2:28

check out that nerd thing. And

2:30

let's also get your fandom ID,

2:32

Morgan. Yes. So my favorite book

2:34

and movie is definitely Prisoner of

2:36

Azkaban because I just love,

2:38

love, love time travel. It's my favorite.

2:40

Like Back to the Future is my

2:42

all time like favorite movie. So

2:45

any whenever I see time travel, travel in

2:47

something, I love it. Let's

2:49

see. I have been a Hufflepuff for

2:51

many years, but I feel like I'm

2:53

entering my Slytherin era. Ooh. Thunderbird.

2:56

And then my favorite character is Ron because

2:58

I think he's just so complex and I

3:00

love how he's not just all good or

3:03

all bad. And he has a lot in

3:05

between. Again, it's a pleasure to

3:07

have you on, Morgan. And yeah, thanks for

3:09

your long time support to your patron. I

3:11

say it every time I talk to all

3:13

of you, but I really will support all

3:15

of you forever. Thank you. That's that's very

3:18

nice. When we launched What the Hype, I

3:20

think you had said, is there a Patreon?

3:22

Because I want to sign up. We're like,

3:24

we're actually not so good. Patreon for now.

3:26

But I appreciate that you. You're interested. So

3:28

much work. You guys like I

3:30

can't imagine the behind the scenes stuff. Yeah,

3:33

it's a lot. You should get paid

3:35

for it. Well, you definitely helped

3:37

us out by being on our most

3:39

recent episode of What the Hype, which

3:41

is coming out. It'll already

3:43

be. It'll already be out by the

3:45

time this episode comes out, where we're

3:47

reviewing the second half of Bridgerton

3:50

in season three. So thank you for being

3:52

there with us. Thank you for asking. Well,

3:55

speaking of Patreon, I am

3:57

wearing the series physical gift

4:00

right now. It's the Mugglecast

4:02

19 Years Later t-shirt featuring

4:05

new silhouettes of the four

4:07

Mugglecast co-hosts. This is a

4:09

spin on our very first

4:11

t-shirt, which we call

4:13

the Mugglecast Square Design. It had

4:16

the Mugglecast hosts in silhouette form

4:18

with iPod earbuds. We

4:20

were recreating those iconic Apple

4:23

iPod commercials. So we recreated

4:25

the shirt, but just

4:27

with the four hosts and kind of

4:29

refreshed the design in a very slick

4:31

new way. Because this

4:34

August we're turning 19 and of course it's

4:36

the Apple log year, 19 years

4:38

later in Deathly Hallows. So

4:41

patrons who pledge at the slug

4:43

club level can get this t-shirt.

4:45

Existing patrons make sure you fill out

4:48

the t-shirt order form on Patreon. If

4:50

you're not a patron yet or you're

4:52

at a lower tier, you can upgrade

4:55

or pledge by July 19th and fill

4:57

out the order form and you will

4:59

receive this shirt too. This

5:01

is a shirt we have created exclusively

5:03

for patrons. This is a great

5:05

year to join us on Patreon. Our

5:07

19 years later year. I don't know

5:10

how to say it. Our epilogue year.

5:13

It's our 19 years later. That's

5:16

all you say. It's our 19 years later moment.

5:19

Yeah, exactly. I'm high

5:21

on cold medicine today. I feel like we should

5:23

get that out there. Aren't we

5:25

all? How

5:28

do you think I do this show every week? Well,

5:32

like Morgan said, podcasting is a

5:34

lot of work and we really

5:36

need everybody's support over on Patreon

5:38

because we are an independent podcast.

5:40

Your support goes a really long

5:42

way. It allows us to spend

5:44

more time on this show that

5:46

we love doing so much. So

5:48

hit up patreon.com/mugglecast today and

5:50

pledge by July 19th. And don't

5:52

forget to fill out that order form as well. And by the

5:54

way, the t-shirt is just the tip

5:57

of iceberg. Get access to our live streams,

5:59

early access to- Mugglecast ad free

6:01

Mugglecast monthly slug club hangouts.

6:03

The Mugglecast Collectors Club. Bonus

6:05

Mugglecast. Bonus Mugglecast. Laura, what's

6:07

coming up in bonus Mugglecast

6:09

this week? Actually, this week's

6:12

bonus Mugglecast is inspired by some

6:14

great news that we heard about

6:16

Dan Radcliffe over the weekend. He

6:20

won his first Tony. He won

6:22

for best featured actor for his

6:24

role as Charlie Kringis in Stephen

6:26

Sondheim's Marily We Roll Along. So

6:29

bonus Mugglecast is really going to be

6:31

based on what projects

6:33

have the cast of Harry Potter

6:36

been up to all

6:39

these years since the movies ended.

6:41

And I think when you

6:43

start digging into the IMDB, you

6:45

might be a little bit surprised to

6:47

see just how many things all

6:50

of these actors have continued to be in.

6:53

And how many of these things you may

6:55

have actually seen and just not

6:57

necessarily made the connection because

6:59

they are really good actors.

7:01

And you don't

7:04

really see Dan Radcliffe in a lot of

7:06

stuff, for example, and think, oh, my God,

7:08

that's Harry Potter, because he is such a

7:10

good actor. And he does a great job

7:12

of just sinking into a role. We'll talk

7:14

about all of those other projects that they've

7:17

had in the years since

7:19

Potter. But before we move

7:21

on, I was thinking we could

7:23

listen to Dan's acceptance speech for

7:25

his first ever Tony nomination

7:27

and award win. Thank you

7:30

so much to the the Broadway League and the

7:32

American Theatre Wing for this unbelievable honor. Thank

7:35

you to our producers, Sonja, David, Patrick and Jeff,

7:37

for making all of this happen. Thank

7:39

you to Stephen Sondheim and George Firth for

7:42

writing this unbelievable show. And these incredible

7:44

songs that are just a gift to get to

7:46

sing every night. Thank

7:49

you to Maria, our director, for knowing

7:51

the show like the back of

7:53

your hand and for guiding us through it so, so

7:55

beautifully. And also just this has been one of the

7:57

best experiences of my life. Thank you for thanking me

7:59

for this. This has just been unbelievable.

8:02

Thank you so much to our cast,

8:04

everybody on that stage. It is an

8:06

honor to be on stage with you

8:08

every single night and to, yeah, I

8:11

will miss it so much. Speaking of

8:13

missing things, Jonathan, Lindsay, I

8:15

will miss you so much. I don't really have to act in

8:17

this show. I just have to look at you and feel everything

8:19

that I wanna feel. I will never have

8:21

it this good again, thank you. Thank

8:24

you to our crew, the band,

8:26

the stage management team, everybody who makes the show happen

8:29

every day at the Hudson Theatre. You make it a

8:31

dream to come to work. Thank you so, so much.

8:34

Thank you to Sulatima, my agent, who has

8:36

been with me literally my entire life. That's

8:39

not a joke. Sandy

8:42

Binion, my dresser. You dressed me on Equus. I know

8:44

you didn't dress me, we met on Equus, and then

8:46

you dressed me on everything since. None of this would

8:48

have been half as much fun without you. Thank you

8:50

so much. My singing teacher, Mark Malan, is the only

8:52

reason I sound any good in the show. Thank you,

8:54

Mark. My mom and dad

8:56

are here somewhere. Happy Father's Day, dad. I love you

8:58

both so much. Thank you for playing Sondheim in the

9:01

car and just, you know, loving me.

9:06

And my love, Erin, you and our

9:08

son, the best thing that has ever happened to

9:10

me. I love you so much. Thank you so

9:12

much. Thank you, everybody. Have a great, great

9:14

night. I will wrap it up. That was sweet.

9:16

And Jonathan Groff was just straight up

9:18

crying watching him receive that award, which

9:20

was so sweet. I also love

9:22

the brief moment of you dressed me on Equus, and

9:25

it's like, no, no, no, nobody dressed you on

9:27

Equus. But yeah, congrats

9:29

to him. And he's just

9:31

such a wholesome guy. Yeah.

9:34

Yeah, you could, everything about that was

9:37

so humble. Yeah. It's really

9:39

cool to see the passion that

9:41

he has for theater too. And

9:44

I know we're gonna talk more about

9:46

this in bonus muggle cast, but getting

9:49

to see him in how to succeed

9:51

in business without really trying. And then

9:53

to see him in something completely opposite

9:55

of that, which was the cripple of

9:57

Inishmane, where he's playing literally this cripple.

20:00

three different memories that we go into

20:02

or the, I should say

20:04

like the three different suspects that

20:07

go on trial, the

20:09

justice is very different for each

20:12

of them. Yeah, as are the

20:14

biases being held by Crouch Sr.

20:16

and the jury. But speaking

20:18

of things that I

20:21

also saw as foreshadowing for

20:23

the next book, there's

20:25

this moment where Harry, he's seated

20:27

next to memory Dumbledore who has

20:29

no awareness that he's there, can't

20:31

see him. And Harry,

20:33

to kind of prove his theory, decides

20:36

to wave his arms madly in front

20:38

of Dumbledore's face and thought,

20:40

okay, this is not present

20:43

day Dumbledore because he would never ignore me.

20:45

I thought age is like

20:47

milk. Just you

20:49

wait. Part of me, every time I've

20:51

read that, I still always wonder like,

20:54

maybe Dumbledore did see Harry and had some

20:56

sort of weird magical powers where he was

20:58

able to do that. I still, part

21:01

of me always thinks that. I mean, I think

21:03

it would be an interesting theory

21:06

to examine. I don't think

21:08

that we've seen quite

21:11

enough of people

21:13

interacting with and being in memories

21:15

to know for

21:17

sure if that would be possible. But I

21:20

mean, if it was going to be possible

21:22

for anyone, Dumbledore would. Doesn't that seem like

21:24

that could bring up time traveling issues, though,

21:26

if somebody's coming in via

21:28

a pensive and a memory. And

21:32

then you're wondering, well, why are you here?

21:34

I don't know. I think it's best this

21:36

way that nobody in the memory could see

21:38

the person trying to relive the memory. What

21:41

happens if you break the

21:43

rules of time travel and you go

21:45

back in time to change something, but

21:47

you're seen by

21:49

the people who made

21:51

up that memory. Does

21:53

the memory change because

21:56

of the time travel that happened or? Is

22:00

the was the memory always that way

22:03

because the time travel always happens? This

22:06

is the exact issue with the time

22:08

travel stuff. Yeah, that's that's the problem.

22:10

Tired on a messy. This

22:13

is when I go to Reddit to try to understand

22:15

all of it. Speaking of understanding, Morgan,

22:17

it seems like having a pensive would be

22:20

pretty helpful. Oh, my God. Yes. Like I

22:22

can't imagine being able to have one of

22:24

those in the therapy room and be like,

22:26

OK, let's like go look at these memories

22:28

and examine them and see if we

22:30

can notice any patterns and what's going on so that

22:32

we can make changes now. Like I think it's just

22:35

it's such a cool feature. And I think it's so

22:37

symbolic to be able to go back and look and

22:39

examine things from somewhat of an

22:42

objective point of view, because I'm sure even if

22:44

multiple people go to the same memory, they still

22:46

would view things differently. But I just

22:48

think it's it's such a cool thing to have to

22:50

help understand our own patterns. It also

22:52

raises the question of how accurate are

22:54

these memories? They're accurate from

22:57

your own perspective, from your own memory. But once

22:59

you pull it out, I guess it's sort of

23:01

locked in permanently like that memory

23:03

won't fade because because then it's in the

23:05

pensive being put on ice, if you will.

23:08

Yeah. Is the memory then gone from our

23:11

head? Like how does I don't think so? I've

23:13

always wondered that. I don't think so, because then

23:16

how would you know that you could go and

23:18

retrieve it? That's a

23:20

really good point. Yeah. Or maybe

23:23

maybe it is still in your

23:25

head. But because you removed it

23:28

as soon as you had it, the

23:30

memory is untarnished from the initial

23:32

event, because don't they always say

23:34

that when you're remembering something, you're

23:37

not actually remembering that thing, you're

23:39

just remembering the last time you

23:41

remember it. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

23:44

I wonder though

23:46

about the ability to

23:48

manipulate memories because we

23:51

see what happens when slug horn tries

23:53

to do it. And so

23:56

I'm wondering if the memory

23:58

really is from anyone. really

34:01

doesn't stack up against our

34:03

own. And I mean, I'm not

34:05

saying that ours is perfect, it's not. But there's

34:09

a lot of bias, I think, that

34:11

we see in this chapter in the

34:13

way these trials are run. And

34:18

I guess I just feel like Ludo

34:21

deserved some kind of consequence,

34:23

potentially, like fine, even. For

34:27

damages, like damage. We know he can't pay

34:29

it. He's

34:32

gonna go swindle somebody out of money.

34:34

But back then, he was still famous,

34:36

like famous footage player, still top of

34:38

his game, he might've been able to.

34:41

It makes me wonder too, how

34:44

old was he when he was

34:46

passing this information along to Rookwood?

34:49

Was he a teenager? Because

34:51

he says his dad's friend, it lends me to

34:54

believe that maybe it was like, was

34:56

he an apprentice of sorts? I

34:58

was young and dumb. I

35:00

kind of read it as like young,

35:03

but not teenager young, just

35:05

because he, again, he is

35:07

an international, internationally famous

35:10

Quidditch player. So I thought maybe like

35:12

young to mid 20s. Yeah,

35:14

I thought that too. I just think it's

35:16

really very dangerous, the

35:19

way that he's put on trial, because

35:21

what better way to hide in plain

35:23

sight than to be

35:25

this celebrity and get off based on

35:28

your celebrity status. And

35:30

I think we learned that

35:32

he really didn't have anything to do

35:34

with the Death Eaters or

35:37

Harry's name entering the Goblet of Fire.

35:39

I think by including him in these

35:41

trials, it still allows the air of

35:43

suspicion to linger over him for at

35:45

least another chapter or two until we

35:47

get the big reveal, which we're gonna

35:49

get. So I think it

35:51

was good writing. I also, I wanted

35:54

to ask this question later, but I'll

35:56

raise it now. What was Dumbledore thinking

35:58

by wanting to relive this memory? or

36:01

by wanting Harry to relive the

36:03

memory. Where is Dumbledore's mind here?

36:06

If Dumbledore is running through

36:08

three suspects in the pensive,

36:11

then presumably he thinks

36:13

any one of the three could

36:15

be causing trouble at school. And

36:17

he also wants Harry to know about what these

36:20

guys were up to. So, allegedly.

36:22

Yeah, I mean, I think it's

36:24

very telling that he chose to

36:26

go back and look at these

36:29

three trials, given again

36:31

who is at Hogwarts. And who's

36:33

been offering to help

36:35

Harry with every single task

36:37

that's come along, too? I mean,

36:40

it's funny, because I remember the first time I read Goblet

36:43

of Fire, I didn't really pick

36:46

up any suspicions for

36:48

Ludobackman, but with

36:51

fresh eyes now, it's

36:53

very clear that he was intended to be some

36:55

kind of red herring. I

36:58

don't know. I feel like he's almost too

37:01

lame to have actually been the bad guy.

37:04

But I think you're right, Laura. It's

37:06

a way to show the reader that,

37:08

hey, all the players were involved back

37:10

then, and all the same players are

37:12

now involved here in present day. Even

37:15

Rita Skeeter is there, right? Mm-hmm. At

37:18

Ludo's trial. Specifically, she's called out at

37:20

Ludo's trial. So I often wonder, like,

37:22

is there something there? Like, we talked

37:25

about it back when they

37:28

showed up in the three broomsticks and

37:30

there was, like, that passing conversation between the two

37:33

of them or there was some mention that that

37:35

happened. And so I wonder, was

37:37

Rita a fan, a superfan of

37:40

Ludobackman? Probably. Because

37:43

how young is she in this moment?

37:45

Is she already a journalist or, you

37:47

know, what's she doing there? She

37:49

also probably knows that people will be really

37:52

interested in his trial and what

37:54

happened there. So she, you know, she knows how to get

37:56

the scoop. That's fair. She definitely had

37:58

her quick quotes quelled. with

38:01

her as well. So I think she

38:03

was definitely reporting on it. Maybe a

38:05

budding journalist. Yeah, but

38:07

it definitely adds context to the

38:09

conversation she had with Ludo in

38:13

Hogsmeade a few chapters ago.

38:16

When you think about her having that

38:18

conversation with him, and even if she doesn't

38:20

directly say it, knowing

38:22

that there's an undercurrent of, I

38:25

was at your trial, remember? You

38:27

probably don't want people to remember that that was

38:29

a thing you had to do, right? I

38:33

really want to ask the same question that

38:35

Andrew just asked about Ludo's trial with

38:37

the trial that we have coming up. Yeah. What

38:40

did Dumbledore hope to gain out

38:43

of looking at the trial of Barty Crouch

38:45

Jr.? Well, we will get

38:47

to that in just a moment. But first,

38:49

we have to stand trial

38:51

for our own crime. So we're going to

38:53

be judged by a jury of our peers.

38:56

Hoping that they're easy on us, but we'll

38:58

be right back. As

39:05

Micah alluded to before the break, we

39:07

get the real gut punch of this

39:09

chapter, which is Crouch Jr.,

39:12

who we don't hear referred to as

39:14

Barty Crouch Jr., along

39:17

with Bellatrix, Rodolfus, and

39:19

Revastan Lestrange are

39:24

put on trial for the torture of the

39:27

long bottoms. The

39:30

latter three that I mentioned are currently

39:32

unnamed, like I think I said earlier.

39:35

But it's clear that they were established

39:37

very prominently because

39:39

they were going to be important

39:42

in the future books. Bellatrix is even

39:44

described as sitting on her chair like

39:46

it was a throne, even

39:50

though she's literally chained to it. So

39:52

I wanted to ask this question of everyone

39:55

because I page through the books

39:58

and it was really difficult to find out.

40:00

finds a clear-cut answer to

40:02

this, how was it

40:05

actually determined that Crouch Jr.

40:07

took part in the torture

40:09

of the Long Bottoms? How

40:11

do we know for sure that he

40:13

did that? Because there's no evidence presented

40:15

in this trial. And I think Dumbledore

40:18

says in this chapter, because of the

40:20

state of the Long Bottoms, they

40:22

were bad witnesses. Well,

40:25

and Harry asked him, did he actually

40:27

do it? And Dumbledore says, I don't

40:29

know. Micah asked, why

40:32

was Dumbledore reliving this

40:34

memory? Maybe this is part of it. He

40:37

wants to relive this trial to

40:39

get another look at Senior and Junior,

40:42

how they were acting towards each other in the trial.

40:45

He maybe wanted to see what Senior was

40:47

really looking like when he was sentencing

40:50

his son, putting him in Azkaban.

40:53

Was he faking it? Was this all a

40:55

ploy? Did they have greater plans in mind,

40:57

Junior and Senior? Let's not

41:00

forget that Mrs. Crouch is also there

41:02

too during this trial. I didn't do

41:04

it, Mother! Mommy, it wasn't me! And

41:08

you can read the pain in

41:11

those attempts for

41:14

him trying to reach out to his

41:16

mother to get his dad to reconsider.

41:19

And his mom ultimately faints

41:23

at the point of his

41:25

sentencing, a lifelong sentence in

41:27

Azkaban. I'm almost wondering if

41:31

Barty Crouch, Junior was guilt

41:33

by association, just given

41:35

who he's being put on trial with.

41:39

When you think about Bellatrix and

41:42

the Lestranges, these are

41:44

top level Death Eaters.

41:47

Even Bellatrix says a little bit later

41:49

on, as she's being escorted

41:51

out straight to Crouch's

41:54

face, the Dark Lord will rise

41:56

again. And I don't

41:58

think Barty, at this moment,

42:02

Junior, has any clue

42:04

what he's really gotten himself into. Yeah.

42:07

I think it changes in the

42:09

moment where Crouch responds, basically saying,

42:11

you're no son of mine. And

42:15

that's the solidifying piece of it.

42:18

But it's hard to say, like,

42:20

I don't know if Barty

42:22

Crouch Jr. was just initiated through what

42:24

happened to the long bottoms. Maybe

42:27

he was forced to do things by Bellatrix and the

42:29

others that he didn't want to do. I'm not trying

42:31

to absolve him of anything

42:33

here, but in

42:36

that moment where you see the father-son

42:39

interaction and

42:41

him really just, like, pleading for help,

42:45

like, I think it could be guilt by

42:47

association. Yeah, that's kind of

42:49

my headcanon, too, especially

42:52

when we think about Crouch

42:56

Sr.'s reputation and

42:58

what was at stake for him at the

43:00

time. Because remember, he was a candidate,

43:04

a serious candidate for a minister of

43:06

magic. And having

43:09

his son be implicated

43:12

in connection with three of

43:14

the most horrible death eaters is

43:17

not a good look for the

43:20

tough-on-crime guy at the ministry.

43:22

Yeah. So, you

43:24

know, I think we

43:27

can't know for sure what happened, but

43:29

I think if Crouch

43:31

Jr. got wrapped up in something that

43:34

was way bigger than he was and

43:36

that he was naive and

43:38

ignorant about, I could see Crouch

43:40

Sr. throwing the book at him

43:42

anyway. And

43:45

we do have to remember, too, Crouch Jr. is,

43:47

like, 18, 19 at this point. He's

43:51

just out of Hogwarts. And

43:53

as Mike has said, it doesn't excuse

43:56

any of it. That's

43:59

old enough to... know better than to get

44:01

caught up in that kind of thing. But

44:04

I think there's context, especially

44:06

in the type of

44:09

father that Crouch Sr. is

44:11

that can point us to

44:14

understanding why Crouch Jr. might

44:17

have sought acceptance somewhere else. I'll

44:20

be honest, I don't remember exactly

44:22

what he says in the Verretta

44:24

Serum chapter where you

44:27

learn pretty much everything you're gonna

44:29

learn about Barty Crouch

44:31

Jr. but yeah,

44:33

I mean, I even think back to the

44:36

way he treats Neville in

44:39

this book and is

44:41

that him trying to

44:43

redeem himself in some way. We

44:46

talk a lot about how he likes to play with his

44:48

food and throughout the

44:50

course of this book, but

44:53

he also has these moments where you're scratching

44:55

your head a little bit and you're saying

44:58

to yourself, is he really that

45:00

bad? Yeah, he's a complex

45:02

character. That's what makes him so

45:04

compelling to read. What

45:06

do you think, Morgan? I'm curious

45:09

for your professional opinion on

45:12

this potential dynamic impact

45:15

that might have landed Barty Crouch

45:17

Jr. here. Somebody has a parent

45:19

who's very strict and structured. It

45:22

is really normal for the kids to

45:24

place high expectations on themselves and then

45:27

never feel accepted. And so it's easy for

45:29

them to be more susceptible to other people

45:31

who will show that acceptance. So I could

45:33

totally see him sort of just falling

45:36

in line with the crowd that showed acceptance

45:38

that he was really hoping for and then

45:40

getting caught up in it and

45:42

then getting convicted and

45:44

then it just spiraling

45:47

from there. I felt kind of bad for

45:49

him. And so looking at all these memories

45:51

together, just to recap, where

45:54

is Dumbledore's mind right now? Like I asked a

45:56

few minutes ago. So he can't get the ministry

45:58

on his side. We definitely see that. this chapter.

46:01

Can he trust Karkaroff? Is that something that's

46:03

going through his mind right now? Oh,

46:05

for sure. Suspecting Ludo as well, or at

46:08

least once Harry to know that he should

46:10

be suspicious of him. Can

46:13

he trust Crouch even with his

46:15

conviction when sentencing his own son? And

46:17

by that I mean like he, it

46:20

was a firm sentencing. Like he wasn't

46:22

wavering about it. He's like, you're going

46:24

to Azkaban son who's no son of

46:26

mine. Sorry. And the last thing I think

46:28

he's wondering is where's that pizza that I ordered? Where's

46:32

the pizza I ordered? Harry knocking, but where's

46:34

the pizza? Does it get dropped into the

46:36

pensive as well? Oh, that would be a

46:38

crying shame. I don't think so. I hope

46:40

not. He wants to remember that pizza forever

46:43

in the memory or no, you got to

46:45

eat outside memory. The pizza falls into the

46:47

pensive and like lands on Barty Krotch Jr's

46:49

head. It's like, oh, I'm going to

46:51

Azkaban, but at least I got some pizza. Don't you think

46:54

he would be like, what's this? I've

46:56

never seen pizza in Harry Potter

46:58

ever. And he's

47:00

a pure blood wizard. Like what exposure is

47:02

he going to have to muggle food? Well,

47:09

after all of these, uh,

47:12

basically this info dump of memories

47:14

of these trials, Dumbledore

47:16

does return to his office

47:18

and he pulls Harry out

47:20

of the pensive and they

47:23

do a little bit of a pensive

47:25

recap, which is kind of what we

47:27

covered towards the top of the episode

47:29

talking about what the

47:32

pensive does, how Dumbledore uses it

47:34

to keep his memories organized. Um,

47:37

which actually Morgan, I think you caught on

47:39

to that when you were thinking about how

47:42

could we use this in therapy to

47:44

identify patterns? Dumbledore is doing exactly

47:47

that here and he's trying to

47:49

identify patterns with the

47:51

fallout of the first wizarding war

47:53

to explain why what's

47:55

happening now is happening. Um,

47:59

from From there, Harry

48:01

recaps the dream he had

48:03

in the last chapter to

48:05

Dumbledore and learns

48:07

that Dumbledore already knew about

48:10

the dream because Dumbledore is

48:12

also nosy and he's corresponding

48:15

with Sirius as well. But

48:19

when Harry suggests to him,

48:21

suggests to Dumbledore that the

48:23

dream felt so real, Dumbledore

48:29

is kinda starting to put

48:31

together the pieces around his

48:34

Horcrux theory and while

48:36

he doesn't give it all away to Harry,

48:39

he definitely shares some of

48:42

his suspicions. I

48:44

have a theory no more than that. It

48:47

is my belief that your scar

48:49

hurts both when Lord Voldemort is

48:51

near you and when he is

48:53

feeling a particularly strong surge of

48:56

hatred. But why? Because

48:58

you and he are connected by the curse

49:00

that failed. That

49:02

is no ordinary scar. And

49:05

so he's kinda telling Harry that

49:07

he's a Horcrux at this point without

49:10

telling him that he thinks he's a

49:12

Horcrux. How

49:14

well put together do we think Dumbledore has

49:16

this at this point in

49:18

the series? He does preface it with it's no

49:20

more than a theory. Maybe

49:23

he's just trying to cushion the

49:25

blow for Harry because if he is certain and

49:27

he says it without, you know, just a guess,

49:29

I don't know for sure, don't shoot the messenger

49:31

type thing. I'm

49:34

willing to believe that he hasn't completely put

49:36

the pieces together. He's not 100% certain that

49:38

Harry is a Horcrux. And

49:42

maybe he doesn't want to accept that because then

49:44

he knows what it means and he's in denial.

49:47

And going back to that line earlier

49:49

where Dumbledore is described as looking older

49:51

than ever. I mean on one

49:54

hand he could be looking older than ever because

49:56

he just realized Harry is a Horcrux

49:58

and he hasn't been sleeping. losing sleep

50:00

over it. On the other hand, he's looking

50:02

older than other ever because he still

50:05

hasn't cracked this

50:07

mystery wide open yet. Well,

50:10

Dumbledore is still on the path of

50:12

trying to discover the truth

50:15

behind this mystery. Part of it is

50:18

him drawing connections based on Harry's

50:20

latest dream and the

50:22

times and locations of certain

50:25

disappearances. He basically says Harry

50:28

Voldemort's rise to power last

50:30

time was really marked by

50:32

strange disappearances that were

50:35

happening in places that were closely connected

50:38

to Voldemort. And here

50:41

is where we get the first mention of

50:43

Frank Bryce since Chapter 1 of this book.

50:46

And Dumbledore says

50:48

here that he just learned about this

50:50

by reading the Muggle newspapers and he

50:52

makes the connection that Frank Bryce lived

50:56

in Voldemort's dad's town.

50:58

But he doesn't state the connection

51:01

that Frank Bryce was actually like

51:03

the groundskeeper for the Riddle House.

51:05

Does Dumbledore not have

51:08

that context? Is he missing that?

51:11

You would think Dumbledore has maybe

51:13

done some research here, whether it's

51:15

going to the town itself and

51:17

asking around or I

51:19

don't know, hearing through other ways. But I could

51:21

picture him going to the town, asking

51:24

around and finding out that

51:26

Frank actually did care for the Riddle property.

51:28

Seems like some easy information to come across.

51:31

Yeah. There's

51:34

a huge difference between just being

51:36

somebody from Voldemort's old

51:38

hood and being

51:41

the one who actually lived on his

51:43

family property. She also

51:45

brings up Bertha Jorkins who of course

51:48

that disappearance is also very recent and

51:53

mentions that she vanished in the place that

51:55

Voldemort was last known to be, which was

51:57

Albania and then of

51:59

course covers Crouch Jr. disappearing

52:01

on the Hogwarts grounds. I

52:04

don't understand why this isn't

52:06

a huge red flag that

52:08

they've been infiltrated. Dumbledore says

52:10

it almost in passing. He's

52:12

like, in Crouch Sr., which

52:14

happened right here, it's like

52:16

you're going to let this

52:18

third task go on when

52:21

these strange disappearances that you think are linked

52:23

to Voldemort are happening and one of them

52:25

happened on your grounds. But how

52:28

are we feeling about Dumbledore at

52:30

this point? Yeah, this chapter was

52:32

when I started realizing,

52:34

okay, maybe, you know, I'll cut Dumbledore

52:36

some slack because I know a lot

52:38

of people don't like him and

52:40

what he did with Harry, but I think

52:43

he was as open as he could be.

52:45

He was answering Harry's

52:47

questions, but he

52:49

also was keeping in mind like Harry's still 14,

52:51

which was kind of wild for me to realize

52:53

as I was reading it again. I'm like, oh,

52:55

wow, like thinking about 14 year

52:58

olds now, like that's so young. But Dumbledore,

53:00

I think was doing a good job balancing

53:02

giving information, but not giving too much. So

53:04

I kind of like, I feel

53:07

for Dumbledore because he probably doesn't know

53:09

how to handle this accurately or in

53:11

the healthiest way possible. And meanwhile, Harry's

53:13

about to compete in the third task.

53:16

He doesn't need extra stress on

53:18

top of the Triwizard

53:20

tournament and his own

53:22

stress that comes with this mystery that

53:25

he's been trying to figure out himself.

53:27

You know what else he doesn't need?

53:29

He doesn't need to participate in the

53:31

third task. There

53:33

doesn't need to be a third task. Or,

53:36

you know, there really shouldn't be. Do

53:39

we really believe at this point that

53:41

the goblet would smite Harry and all

53:43

the other champions if they canceled

53:45

the tournament? Yeah, I mean, a

53:47

reasonable headmaster or team of people

53:49

running this cup, this tournament would

53:51

would be like out of an

53:53

abundance of caution. Isn't that the

53:55

phrase that's so often used?

53:58

We have decided to post. the

54:00

Triwizard Tournament, at least postpone it. You don't have

54:02

to cancel it. Just put

54:04

it on nice for a little while. Yeah,

54:07

just do like they did with student loans

54:11

for four years and just get them in. Don't

54:14

worry about those. I

54:16

also wonder if Dumbledore, if

54:19

we're still going along with your theory that Dumbledore

54:21

wanted Harry to look in the pensive. I

54:24

wonder if Dumbledore wanted

54:27

Harry to have all this information right

54:29

before the third task. Maybe he thought

54:31

it would better prepare him in case

54:33

something went awry at the

54:36

third task. But that's a

54:38

pretty messed up thought because it's like, well,

54:40

Dumbledore actually thought something might happen at the

54:42

third task. The next chapter is the third

54:44

task. Like this is happening right

54:46

before then. So I don't

54:49

wanna think Dumbledore is giving it to him

54:51

right before the third task on purpose to

54:53

better prepare him, but I don't

54:55

know. The timing is a little interesting too. Of

54:58

course Harry did decide to go up there

55:00

because he just had the dream. So there's

55:02

also that. Part of me thinks that Dumbledore

55:04

knows that shit's about to go down. Cause

55:08

he even says like, good luck in the

55:10

third task. Like good luck. Yeah,

55:12

I know. Sorry.

55:15

Good luck in the third. I don't know. I don't do it as

55:17

well as Andrew. Good luck in the third task. There

55:20

you go. No, that's Trelawney. Good

55:22

luck in the third task. You

55:25

gotta say it with like a

55:28

little bit of sass though. Like a twinkle,

55:30

yeah. Good luck in the third task. That's

55:35

more like ludobag pen I think. I hope nothing

55:37

bad happens. You know what? I'm not a paid

55:39

voice actor. I don't need these notes y'all. I'm

55:41

giving it to you for free. Now I want

55:43

to give it to you. Beggars

55:46

can't be choosers. Well, this chapter

55:48

ends on a bit of a

55:50

somber note with Harry realizing why

55:52

Neville was raised by his grandmother.

55:55

And he didn't think to ask about it

55:57

until he saw the trial. about

56:00

what happened to the long bottoms and

56:03

until he talks to Dumbledore. So

56:06

Dumbledore does ask Harry. And

56:08

I think this is this

56:11

is one of those great Dumbledore moments. He

56:14

says, please don't tell anyone about

56:17

Neville's parents. It's his right to

56:19

decide when he wants to

56:21

tell a heartbreaking moment. It is because Harry, my

56:23

heart breaks for Neville Morgan. If you had to

56:25

if you had to give Dumbledore a score based

56:28

on how we handled that, like 10 out of

56:30

10 or yeah, 10 out of 10. Cool.

56:33

Like respecting Neville's boundaries. And

56:35

Morgan and I will give him more props

56:38

in a couple of minutes. But

56:40

it's also heartbreaking because Neville's

56:42

parents are alive, but

56:45

not. Harry's parents

56:47

are dead and very much

56:50

dead. And I guess Harry

56:52

can almost see

56:54

that they they have this connection. Like,

56:57

yeah, his Neville's parents are

56:59

still breathing, but he's lost them, too.

57:01

Yeah. And I

57:03

mean, honestly, what

57:05

happened to Neville's parents is worse

57:08

in a way, like not to play

57:11

the tragedy Olympics here, but a fate

57:13

worse than death. You know, they're they're

57:17

trapped in their bodies

57:19

and they've lost their sanity. Yeah.

57:22

And Neville really didn't get to like

57:24

say goodbye and oh, and he still

57:27

doesn't get to say goodbye. Well, and

57:29

he never he never gets

57:31

to see his parents as they were

57:33

because he was also a baby when

57:36

this happened to them. So

57:38

this is all he's ever known is having

57:41

to visit his parents in the hospital. All

57:43

right. Well, we're going to try to pep ourselves

57:45

up by looking at a couple of odds and

57:48

ends. We mentioned earlier

57:50

that Dumbledore has been corresponding with Sirius,

57:52

but we also learned that Dumbledore suggested

57:55

his current hiding place in the cave

57:58

out on the skirts of Hodges. and

58:01

he's just so matter of fact about it

58:03

with Harry by being like, yeah, you're not the

58:05

only one who writes to Sirius, whatever. Yeah,

58:08

and of course, Sirius wants to talk to Dumbledore

58:10

too to make sure he's getting as much information

58:12

as possible. And I wonder if Dumbledore ever uses

58:14

this cave for anything himself. Like, is this a

58:16

place for him to go relax and read and

58:19

get away from all the kids? Hook

58:22

up. Hook up, yeah. The stress of the

58:24

school. I think Sirius has

58:26

better things to do. Dumbledore, you

58:28

mean? Then what? No,

58:32

then hook up in the cave. No, we

58:34

were talking about Dumbledore. How did Dumbledore know

58:36

about this cave? Oh yeah, he and

58:38

Grindelwald definitely christened that

58:40

cave. I just wanted to call

58:43

out Harry for

58:45

calling out Fudge on

58:48

his prejudice. He does this at the

58:50

beginning of the chapter when he had

58:53

overheard Fudge's comments in the

58:55

prior chapter about Madam Maxime

58:58

possibly being the one

59:00

who stunned Crumb and

59:05

did something to Barty Crouch Sr. And Harry

59:08

says something along the lines. Well, I think

59:10

we would have noticed if she was lingering

59:13

around, she's kind of tall. It

59:15

takes some guts to stand up to the

59:18

Minister of Magic. Yeah, exactly. And I think

59:20

it's gonna be the first of many moments

59:22

for Harry. He's getting in

59:25

some practice shots now because he's

59:27

really gonna need to stand up to them in the future. All

59:30

right, well, it's time for MVP of the week. My

59:35

MVP goes to Moody's real eye. I

59:39

think it's the only time it appears in

59:42

the series. And of course I'm talking

59:44

about the one that is eventually covered

59:46

up by the magical eye, but it's

59:48

noted that Moody has both of them

59:50

in this chapter. So this

59:52

is a rare one for me. I'm actually

59:55

gonna give it to Harry. I feel like

59:57

this never happens. I

1:00:00

think Harry is someone who

1:00:02

proves the old adage curiosity

1:00:04

killed the cat wrong, because

1:00:06

not this cat. Harry's

1:00:09

always got his nose into something and somehow

1:00:12

he manages to come

1:00:14

out of it clean as a whistle. So

1:00:17

good for you, Harry. Thanks for the exposition.

1:00:20

I'll give it to Dumbledore and Harry was

1:00:22

a close second, but I think Dumbledore was

1:00:24

just so patient and calm and I think

1:00:27

he is doing the best that he can

1:00:29

do with the information that he has. And

1:00:32

so I loved his explanation. Yeah, the way he handled Harry visiting his

1:00:34

memories. Like

1:00:40

you said, he was very calm. Harry

1:00:42

was asking a lot of questions that he answered very

1:00:44

well. And

1:00:48

talking about just a few minutes ago how

1:00:50

he handled explaining the long bottoms to Harry

1:00:53

too. I mean, I thought

1:00:55

Dumbledore was just masterful in this chapter.

1:00:57

So I plus one this MVP

1:00:59

of the week choice masterfully

1:01:01

vague. If

1:01:05

you have any feedback about today's discussion,

1:01:07

you can contact us by emailing or

1:01:09

sending a voice memo recorded on your

1:01:11

phone to mugglecast@gmail.com or you can call

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us with an old school telephone. The

1:01:16

number is one nine two oh three muggle. That's

1:01:18

one nine two oh three six eight four four

1:01:20

five three. We do prefer

1:01:23

the voice memos. They sound much better.

1:01:25

Audio quality wise. And no matter how

1:01:28

you call us, please keep your message around a minute

1:01:30

so that we can fit in as many voicemails

1:01:33

as possible in a future muggle mail

1:01:35

installment. And next week, God

1:01:38

would have fired chapter thirty one, the third

1:01:40

task in which no

1:01:42

one saw this coming. Thank

1:01:46

you, dad. The important people who could

1:01:48

have stopped it and see it coming.

1:01:52

So now it's time for a Quiz Edge. All

1:01:58

right. The last week's Quiz Edge. the question

1:02:01

at Ludo Bagman trial, what

1:02:03

Quidditch match does a jury

1:02:05

member congratulate him on? And

1:02:08

the correct answer was

1:02:11

England versus Turkey. Last

1:02:13

week's winners include Buff Daddy,

1:02:16

Dumpy plus Pizza Hut happiness.

1:02:20

That is so true. Elizabeth

1:02:22

Kay fall asleep listening to Jim Dale

1:02:25

every night. Is that bad? Hot

1:02:28

goat summer? How did Buckbeak

1:02:30

get into Sirius' cave because the opening

1:02:32

was barely big enough for the trio?

1:02:35

I only remember the answer because of the

1:02:37

way Jim Dale says, Tychee in the

1:02:40

audio book. That's not how he says

1:02:42

it. I actually I've never listened. So I don't

1:02:44

know. Gen Pen one, zero, one, three, knock

1:02:46

the stuffing out of the Turkey with the rogue

1:02:48

bludger. Ooh, I heard it through the Snape vine.

1:02:51

Quaffle and Waffle and

1:02:53

Robbie. I heard he

1:02:55

actually screams Turkey in the audio book.

1:02:57

That's why it sticks with people. It's

1:02:59

just so random. Oh, he's just like

1:03:01

England versus Turkey. Does he

1:03:04

say it in that New Jersey

1:03:06

accent? Oh my God. Never accused

1:03:09

me of having a New Jersey

1:03:11

accent again. All right. Next

1:03:14

week's Quidditch question. Which

1:03:19

Weasley family members are not

1:03:21

present for the third task.

1:03:23

You must list them all.

1:03:27

And of course you can submit

1:03:29

your answers over at mugglecast.com/Quidditch. This

1:03:31

show is brought to you by

1:03:34

muggles like you and Morgan.

1:03:36

Thanks for joining us again today, Morgan. And

1:03:39

thanks for your support on Patreon. We really

1:03:41

appreciate it. Oh, thank you. This is so much fun.

1:03:43

Thank you for having me. We thankfully

1:03:45

don't have a ministry of magic

1:03:47

or a fudge running the show.

1:03:49

We're just everyday muggles, conjuring

1:03:52

an independent podcast, but that means we

1:03:54

need support from listeners like you. So

1:03:56

how can you help us out if

1:03:59

you're an apple? podcast user you can subscribe

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to mugglecast gold which gets you

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ad-free and early access to mugglecast

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plus two bonus mugglecast installments every

1:04:08

month including one we're about to

1:04:10

record after today's episode. Check out

1:04:12

the last bonus mugglecast released last

1:04:14

week too in which we're discussing

1:04:16

the latest video game news. So

1:04:19

there's that but then there's also patreon.com/mugglecast

1:04:21

and don't forget you can get our

1:04:23

new 19 years later

1:04:25

t-shirt only available by pledging at the

1:04:28

slug club level at patreon.com/mugglecast before july

1:04:30

19th and don't forget that you also

1:04:32

need to fill out that form new

1:04:34

and existing patrons must fill out the

1:04:36

order form because we got to know

1:04:38

your address and we got to know

1:04:40

your shirt size we got shirts

1:04:42

for everyone and we got sizes from extra

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small to 5xl so there will be a

1:04:47

shirt for everyone but we need you to

1:04:49

fill out that form with peace and love

1:04:51

peace and love july 19th for

1:04:53

the 19 years later t-shirts thank you

1:04:56

with peace and love peace and love

1:04:58

thanks again for your support we couldn't

1:05:00

do it without you and just a

1:05:02

quick reminder in a few weeks from

1:05:05

now eric cloey

1:05:07

and myself will be at leaky

1:05:09

con july 5th to the 7th

1:05:11

taking place at the oregon convention

1:05:13

center in portland oregon we

1:05:16

have some dates and times to share

1:05:18

with you all so if you're going

1:05:20

to be out in portland please join

1:05:22

us for the mugglecast beat up which

1:05:24

is taking place on friday july 5th

1:05:27

then we also have a podcaster

1:05:29

mega panel and a live mugglecast

1:05:31

taking place on saturday and

1:05:34

to close out the convention a joint

1:05:37

leaky mug with podcast on

1:05:39

sunday july 7th for

1:05:42

all the information related to

1:05:44

the convention head over to

1:05:46

leakycon.com and if you haven't

1:05:48

registered yet you can do

1:05:50

so using code muggle to get a

1:05:53

nice little discount on

1:05:55

your tickets visit mugglecast.com for transcripts

1:05:57

social media links our full episode

1:05:59

our our favorite episodes,

1:06:01

and more. And Morgan,

1:06:03

where can listeners find your podcast?

1:06:06

That's Nerd Thing. They can

1:06:08

find it anywhere that they listen to podcasts, and

1:06:10

then you can also follow the show on social

1:06:12

media at that Nerd Thing pod. Well,

1:06:14

thanks again, Morgan, and thanks everybody for

1:06:17

listening. I'm Andrew. I'm Micah. I'm

1:06:19

Laura. And I'm Morgan. Bye,

1:06:21

everyone. Bye, y'all. Bye.

1:06:24

Bye. Thanks.