0:00

Next Question with Katie Kuric is a production of I

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Heart Radio and Katie Kuric Media. Hi

0:05

everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and welcome to Next

0:07

Question, where we try to understand the

0:09

complicated world we're living in and

0:11

the crazy things that are happening by

0:14

asking questions and by listening

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to people who really know what they're talking about.

0:19

At times, it may lead to some pretty

0:21

uncomfortable conversations, but

0:23

stick with me, everyone, let's all learn

0:26

together. You

0:31

look great for your age. That's

0:33

a compliment, right, or

0:36

is it for your age? You're look

0:38

really good for your age. Yeah,

0:40

I'd say that that's a compliment. Um,

0:43

it implies that at your age you should look terrible.

0:46

Do you think ageism is one of the last acceptable

0:48

isms in society that it's okay

0:51

to criticize older people. I feel

0:53

like when you get to a certain point in your life, you're kind of becoming

0:56

or are invisible, and so I don't

0:58

think it's acceptable. Okay, great, thank you

1:00

so much. In

1:03

today's youth obsessed culture, aging

1:05

seems to be viewed as a negative, something

1:08

to be feared, not revered, and the

1:10

messages were inundated with every

1:13

day only reinforce that.

1:15

A new study by the a RP found

1:18

only fift of images in the media

1:20

show people over the age of fifty,

1:23

and when they do appear, they're often

1:25

at home, sitting around with a partner

1:27

or nurse instead of out in the world exercising

1:30

or working, and you never see them

1:33

using technology. Then

1:35

there's the anti aging industrial

1:37

complex. Aging skin is dry.

1:40

It can be embarrassing and make you look

1:42

older than you really are. Now you can

1:44

do something about it. Visibly plump

1:46

skin in just one week, bounce back

1:49

and reduces wrinkles for younger looking

1:51

skin. It's the ultimate beauty

1:53

victory. Nobody has any idea

1:55

how old you are. Why

1:57

is aging portrayed as something to avoid?

1:59

It all costs a source of shame

2:02

and embarrassment, especially for women.

2:05

My next question is ag

2:07

ism the last socially acceptable

2:09

is um.

2:12

I'm sixty two and I'm happy to

2:14

be the age I am most of the time. I'm

2:16

out there, loud and proud doing my

2:18

thing. But all too often people

2:21

become marginalized or ignored

2:23

as they age. Maybe that's

2:25

starting to change though, After all,

2:27

there are almost fifty million people sixty

2:30

or over in the US and there is

2:32

active as ever, today prejudice

2:35

against any group is not considered a

2:37

good look. But does that extend

2:39

to older people? I think

2:41

that unconsciously, although

2:44

I had no agenda when I started

2:47

my doing, Accidental Icon

2:49

was really kind of giving the finger

2:52

to this notion that I

2:54

have to be invisible. Now, lens

2:57

Later is the headline making fashion

2:59

influencer own on social media as

3:01

the Accidental Icon. She was

3:03

catapulted into fame five years ago

3:06

when she was mistaken as a fashion

3:08

industry insider outside

3:10

an exhibit in New York City.

3:13

Now in her mid sixties, she has nearly

3:15

seven hundred thousand followers on Instagram,

3:18

as well as a modeling contract.

3:21

So let's talk about how this happened.

3:24

Because, first and foremost,

3:26

I understand a college professor at

3:28

Foredom, Is that right? Yes? Although

3:30

I just retired after

3:32

twenty years of teaching last

3:35

semester. So now you're embarking

3:37

on this whole new career, right, a

3:39

whole new career, but really

3:42

trying to think about how to incorporate

3:44

my teaching and my

3:47

commitment to social welfare into

3:50

this new career. What did you teach it? Foredom?

3:52

Social welfare? AH, soci our

3:55

law, the whole idea of agism

3:58

and how society treats older

4:00

people. It's right in your wheelhouse. Actually,

4:03

do you think ag ism is

4:06

the last socially acceptable

4:08

is um in America? I actually

4:11

do, and I actually discovered

4:14

because on my Instagram,

4:16

my largest following is

4:19

actually eighteen to forty

4:23

and the biggest bar five

4:25

to thirty five. Of course, being

4:27

an academic, I asked a lot of questions

4:29

whenever I met twenty five year old who

4:31

followed me, I would say why?

4:34

And so it turns out I've now determined

4:37

the ages and begins at When

4:40

you are twenty five, you don't say,

4:43

oh, I'm gonna be twenty six my next

4:45

birthday. You say, oh

4:47

my god, I'm gonna be thirty.

4:50

I'm getting old, And then

4:52

all of the stereotypes about

4:54

what that means enter into

4:57

your head. And then the next

4:59

thing are all social expectations

5:01

for women. And I haven't done this, and

5:03

I haven't done that, and I haven't done that. Lenn,

5:06

how old are you now? I'm sixty

5:08

six? When people ask you that,

5:10

do you ever wonder if you should lie about

5:12

your age? Or how have you ever lied about your Never?

5:15

Why? Well? I think a long time

5:17

ago, I decided

5:21

that in order for me to have

5:23

power in the world, that

5:26

I had to understand and

5:28

own any limitation that

5:31

I would ever have in my life. And

5:33

my response to limitations has

5:36

been to respond to them in

5:38

a creative way. And so

5:40

I think that I get

5:42

more angry than scared

5:45

about these things. The visual representation

5:48

that you give to people, I think

5:51

also is incredibly empowering, just

5:53

as women are empowered

5:56

by seeing images of other powerful

5:58

women. The whole notion of if

6:00

you can't see it, you can't be it. Seeing

6:03

you a woman of a certain age

6:05

quote unquote, who is often

6:08

marginalized or diminished or

6:11

made invisible not seen,

6:14

is like, hell, yeah, she's

6:16

out there, she's living her life, she looks

6:19

fantastic, she's cool,

6:21

she's stylish, and you know what, God

6:24

damn it. So am I that's

6:27

the response. But I want to also make this

6:29

point because I think it's really important.

6:31

There's a whole bunch of young women that feel

6:34

marginalized because they

6:36

don't reach this perfection

6:39

that fashion kind of puts out

6:41

there, and so a lot of

6:43

them are also inspired

6:45

because I think, basically,

6:48

I'm just very comfortable with who

6:50

I am, and your messages you do you

6:53

basically yeah, And when young

6:55

people say, oh, I'm gonna be just like you

6:57

when I get older, I always

6:59

right back to them and I say,

7:02

be me. Now, just start

7:04

loving yourself and putting yourself

7:06

out there if you believe ag

7:09

ism or fear of aging starts

7:11

at which is insane

7:14

to me looking at that number

7:16

as a sixty two year old woman. How

7:18

do we flip the script? How

7:21

do we say, hey, you

7:23

can lead a long, productive, visible

7:25

life for many, many, many many

7:28

years. It's not all downhill from here.

7:30

You, as important as your

7:32

presence is on social media, you alone

7:35

cannot change the narrative. So

7:37

what other things need to happen when well?

7:39

I think the first thing is women

7:42

my age, our age still

7:44

have a lot of internalized

7:47

ages m because of cultural conditioning,

7:49

yes, and that they project onto

7:52

other women. And so

7:54

I think it's very interesting to

7:56

me that again early

7:59

on, the people that really promoted

8:01

me, the people that made me very

8:03

public, the people that hire me,

8:06

the people that pay me, are all young.

8:09

It's not women my age. For

8:12

me, I've always been inspired by

8:14

young people. And maybe that's because

8:16

I'm the oldest of six children. That

8:19

started it. I'm a professor,

8:22

and even in my practice as

8:24

a social worker, I worked with young people and

8:26

they always push you to keep

8:29

relevant, to keep moving.

8:32

I think that in every situation,

8:34

if you look hard enough, there's a little

8:36

note of power, which

8:38

is what I've found in social media. You

8:41

know, social media can be used to

8:44

have negative effects for women, and

8:46

social media can have very positive

8:49

effects. And so I always

8:51

asked myself when I'm going to post, what

8:53

are women going to see

8:56

or think or how am I going to make them

8:58

feel when I put it's this picture?

9:01

And so I'm very aware that I have a

9:03

responsibility about

9:06

this, but I also feel

9:08

that this is not a project for

9:10

older people. That we

9:13

need to engage all

9:15

ages into disrupting

9:19

the story of aging, and

9:21

we really better do it soon, because

9:24

by there's going to be way

9:26

more people over the age of sixty

9:29

then there is under

9:31

the age of five. And

9:33

so I think it's

9:36

not just a social justice

9:39

issue, but now it's a mental

9:41

and physical health issue. And

9:43

I think in terms of getting the message

9:46

out, what I've learned from

9:48

being a professor is you can't lecture

9:50

people and you can't

9:53

the victim either. You can't exactly,

9:55

so I never play the victim about

9:57

it. Every single phone,

10:00

Oh I put out I have this expression

10:02

on my face like I have along hair. Look

10:05

at me. In my personal life, I'm

10:07

actually kind of I'm more of

10:09

a Shire person, and

10:11

so that this is like your alter ego

10:14

coming out, as it is my

10:16

alter ego always came out in the classroom

10:19

too. I'm a very performative

10:22

person, and when people

10:24

ask me what do I think about age, I

10:27

basically say, look at my photos.

10:30

I'm performing it. I don't

10:32

need to talk about it. I am

10:34

showing a different way to

10:36

think about aging. I'm

10:38

doing it visually instead of giving

10:41

you a lecture about oppression in this

10:43

and that. And it's almost a

10:45

subconscious message in some ways,

10:48

right under the guise of fashion, you're

10:51

really communicating an incredibly

10:53

important message. People just may not realize

10:55

it. Right exactly. I

10:58

was on a morning as

11:00

a guest not too long ago, and

11:03

they posted me talking and

11:05

one of the comments was, wow, she looks

11:07

old. What would you have said to

11:09

that person? I am old, That's

11:12

what I did say. Good for you. I

11:14

now think I should have said, well, i

11:17

am older, and I'm lucky I've gotten here

11:20

right. I mean that's the other side

11:22

of the client. The other alternative

11:24

is you're not here anymore, right, And

11:26

I think about that because my husband died at

11:28

forty two exactly, so every

11:31

year I'm able to be here is precious

11:33

to me, that's right. And

11:35

I think there's so many advances

11:37

now in medicine and

11:39

technology that we are

11:42

going to live a higher quality

11:44

of life much longer. And

11:46

so these old stories of

11:49

you're going to stop caring about what you wear,

11:52

you're gonna go play bingo,

11:55

or even that you're going to retire, right

11:58

right. I have been last with

12:00

good health, and if

12:03

this continues, I could do this for

12:05

another twenty years. My mother's

12:07

ninety four. I want

12:09

those years to be exciting. I

12:12

want to keep learning. I

12:14

think I have something to offer,

12:17

and a lot of people seem to think I do.

12:20

I just want to kiss you right now. I

12:26

also had a chance to talk to another headline

12:28

grabbing fashionist of a certain age,

12:31

model Joannie Johnson, who's sixty

12:33

seven and has walked the runway for

12:35

many top designers. She was

12:37

even cast by Rihanna to appear in a campaign

12:40

for her new fenty fashion line. She

12:43

talked to me about representing women who are

12:45

not twenty two in an industry

12:47

often fixated on youth. I

12:50

think that the opportunities have become

12:53

more available to women

12:55

of a certain age. It's not just here

12:57

in the United States, but it's also happening

13:00

in Europe and Asia. Women of

13:02

a certain age being taken more

13:04

seriously. You know, it's also

13:06

about they are some of the top consumers,

13:09

so they do make a difference, and

13:12

the responses that the media

13:15

is getting from those people of a certain

13:17

age saying finally, I

13:21

see myself is also having an

13:23

impact. Len agrees that things are

13:25

starting to change, and ironically it's

13:28

younger people who are paving the way.

13:31

If you look at who is asking

13:33

older women to walk in their shows,

13:36

it's young designers. It is

13:38

not the gucciese. It

13:40

is not the channels. It's

13:43

Christian Sarriano had made Musk

13:46

Joanni has walked for

13:49

a lot of independent designers.

13:52

I myself just had

13:54

a fun time walking for Kate Spade.

13:57

But I think younger people are realizing

14:00

the importance of representation overall.

14:02

But I think that is actually permeated

14:04

through the youth culture. The importance

14:07

of diversity and inclusion and

14:09

they're happily including

14:12

people who are older. That's that equation,

14:14

and I think that if I'm going to put

14:16

on my social welfare social

14:19

justice had here is that

14:21

one of the things when you have privileged

14:24

in a system, which you

14:27

know, we as white people

14:30

have privilege in this system,

14:32

youth have privilege and fashion. And

14:35

so when you have privilege, if

14:37

you want to do the right thing, you become an

14:39

ally and you use

14:42

your privilege to advance the cause

14:44

of other people. And so that's what I've

14:46

felt young people have done for

14:49

me in particular, is

14:51

they have been an ally in

14:54

promoting older people

14:57

to be part of this

14:59

diversement. You're so inspiring.

15:01

What would you tell women and even

15:04

men, honestly, because

15:06

I think they're the victims of these

15:08

attitudes as well, not as much,

15:10

right, but what would you tell them

15:13

about aging and about

15:16

helping their outlook when it comes

15:18

to getting older. So

15:20

my own experience, and I'm not gonna lie,

15:23

is that when I first started to age, I

15:25

was not happy about the

15:27

impact. I actually came

15:29

to this realization it's inevitable.

15:32

There's not anything you can

15:35

do to intervene

15:37

in this process. And actually, if

15:39

we want to be honest, It's been happening since

15:41

the day were born. One of

15:43

the things that I think

15:46

was very helpful to me was

15:48

because I was always around young people,

15:51

I was able to remain relevant when

15:53

it came to things like technology,

15:56

um popular culture. Yes, I

15:58

was able to use this

16:01

new kind of culture

16:03

for my benefit because

16:06

I didn't reject it. And

16:08

I think that's a habit that we sometimes

16:10

have as older people, because we're

16:13

comfortable in our own zones. That's

16:15

right, And so in this new media,

16:18

I can still address

16:20

issues that are really important to me. I

16:23

can do it in a way that I'm not like turning

16:25

people off. It's very engaging.

16:28

And so you're going direct to consumer,

16:30

as they say, exactly exactly,

16:33

disintermediator, Lynn, And

16:37

for me, you're not an accidental icon.

16:39

You're just an icon. And

16:42

what can I say? I think you rock, Lynn, Thank

16:44

you, thank you so much. Coming

16:47

up, anti agism warrior Ashton

16:49

apple White debunked some of the biggest myths

16:52

about getting older. It doesn't

16:54

make sense to go through life pretending

16:56

that something that is happening to you every day is

16:58

not going to happen to you. That fear is

17:01

bad for us that fear keeps

17:03

us from investing in our

17:05

own care and our own development across

17:07

our lifespan, and no

17:10

discrimination is good for society.

17:22

Ashton apple White is an activist, influencer,

17:25

and writer. She's also made Fortunes

17:27

forty over forty list and is the

17:29

author of This Chair Rocks,

17:31

a manifesto against ages. UM

17:34

let's talk about the U Curve of happiness.

17:37

Where did that come from? How did they discover

17:39

it? And is it legitimate? If

17:43

you sound like my mother in law who

17:45

would never say she said that you curve, I'm

17:47

not buying it. Um

17:50

google it. It is one of the best substantiated

17:53

data sets out there. There is a whole

17:55

emerging field of social science

17:57

called happiness studies, so one

17:59

of them could give you a more scholarly answer

18:02

than I. But I can tell you that I was plenty

18:04

skeptical about it, and that it

18:06

has been borne out by dozens

18:09

of studies in the US and around

18:11

the world. For those of you who

18:13

may not know what Ashton is talking about.

18:15

In a nutshell, the U curve

18:17

of happiness shows that people are happiest

18:20

at the beginning and end of their

18:22

lives, but less so in the middle,

18:24

which could explain why so many of

18:27

us have a midlife crisis. So

18:29

if we're happier as we age,

18:32

and if we're living more

18:34

independently as we age, then

18:37

why is there so much ages um? To

18:40

put it succinctly, if aging is framed

18:42

as a problem, we can be persuaded

18:45

to buy things to fix it. People

18:47

make money off those things. No one makes

18:49

money off satisfaction. So we have

18:51

a huge lesson here. In the body acceptance

18:54

movement, you know when once you learn that the fact

18:56

that your thighs rubbed together is not

18:58

the worst problem ever to affect mankind,

19:01

you stop spending money and time

19:03

on self loathing. Agism

19:06

is rooted in denial of the fact that

19:08

we're going to get older. I don't think self loathing

19:10

is too strong a term to use about

19:13

seeing these natural transitions as um

19:15

as awful as your own personal problem.

19:18

And in the bigger sense, agism

19:21

is a prejudice. It's stereotyping and discrimination

19:24

on the basis of age. Agism

19:26

is great for companies because they can pitt supposedly

19:29

expensive older workers against younger

19:31

workers, who can be exploited because they

19:33

don't have families to support yet right,

19:36

We need to join forces old and young.

19:38

Don't fall for any old versus

19:40

young rhetoric. Any time you make a

19:42

judgment that someone couldn't isn't

19:45

possibly old enough to know what they're doing

19:47

or to tell you what to do, that's agism

19:49

too. So why is

19:52

it still socially acceptable?

19:54

You know, it seems to me sexism

19:56

is being addressed, and racism

19:59

is being addressed, certainly not solved,

20:01

but at least talked about. Forget there, and

20:03

this is an ism that nobody really

20:06

really talks about, do they. I

20:08

do, and I will say in a way that I

20:10

don't think is delusional, that this

20:12

really is changing. I mean ten years ago when

20:15

I started on this, I was telling people

20:17

what agism is and why it's a problem.

20:19

I just criss crossed the country on a

20:21

book tour, and people were coming

20:23

to me and saying, how can I be

20:26

pro aging anti ageism in

20:29

my work, in my program, in my built

20:31

environment. We are moving from theory to

20:33

practice. What has propelled that change?

20:35

I'm not sure. Perhaps it's the baby boom.

20:38

I am dead center born in ninety

20:40

two, you know, finally acknowledging it's

20:43

true that we are aging differently

20:45

than our parents did, and our grandparents

20:48

certainly. But guess what, I'm still going to get old.

20:51

There's also a lot of denial on

20:53

the part of baby Boom. We're different, We're exceptional.

20:56

Sixty is the new thirty. That kind

20:58

of sixty is the new six. The it

21:00

is different from what sixty used to

21:02

be. But every time we aspire

21:05

to be younger, we deny

21:08

all the richness that our years have brought

21:10

us, all that the aches and pains too. Again,

21:13

it's double edged. I once wrote a really

21:15

cranky blog post. If aging is so awful,

21:18

how come no one actually wants to be any

21:20

younger? People's

21:22

faces do just what yours just did. That

21:25

there's like this moment of wait that sounds great,

21:27

Oh wait, because you don't get

21:29

to take your present day consciousness back

21:31

with you. Well, I'd

21:33

still want to do it. You'd erase

21:36

the clock, you'd go back to being who you are at seventeen

21:38

or whatever. Age. Well, how about

21:41

thirty five? But you don't get anything

21:43

that you've learned or done or been since

21:45

you were thirty five. You have to read about forty

21:48

have about forty You tell me, no, I'm

21:50

just going to have my children

21:53

would still be alive, and

21:56

I'd look a hell of a lot better. Is

21:58

that wrong? There is no right

22:00

or wrong. We each have to do this in

22:03

our own way. You know. I

22:05

have had women come up and say, look, I've had botox,

22:07

I have plastic surgery. Whatever. If I

22:09

didn't dye my hair, I would lose

22:11

my job. I wish I would thought that she

22:13

was exaggerating. I'm sure she's not no

22:16

judgment around any of this, But

22:19

the habit of looking in the mirror and

22:21

going what the hell happened, which we

22:23

all do, is deeply

22:27

damaging because if you think about

22:29

all the things that did happen and how fantastic

22:31

they were, just as a thought

22:33

experiment, why shouldn't we

22:35

look in the mirror and go cut what an amazing life

22:37

I've had, rather than g I wish

22:40

I could afford a facelift. That's swimming upstream

22:42

against all these societal messages.

22:45

So how do you change society?

22:47

Is it one person at a time

22:50

telling herself that she's more

22:52

than or can we collectively

22:54

do anything about this? Both

22:57

and which, of course, you know, the

23:00

consciousness raising is the tool that

23:02

catalyzed the women's movement, and

23:04

it's sort of an old fashioned word, but I think it's still

23:06

powerful. What happened is that women

23:08

came together and compared notes

23:11

and realize that what they had been thinking of

23:13

as personal problems. You know, their children weren't

23:15

blond enough, their boops weren't big enough,

23:17

their boss was patting them on the butt, they couldn't

23:19

even get a job. We're not personal

23:22

problems. They were widely shared

23:24

political problems that required collective

23:27

action. And that is exactly what we need

23:29

to do with aging. It is the

23:31

work of a lifetime. It is a

23:33

collective task. But that's why I think

23:36

if I have one ask, I have a lot

23:38

of them. But it would be for

23:40

women to come together in consciousness

23:43

raising groups. Let's talk about the

23:46

implicit bias we all have and

23:49

how agism really creeps into

23:51

our conversation in a

23:53

way that we don't even realize. I wouldn't

23:55

even say it creeps in. It's they're sitting on the sofa.

23:58

One good sort of little litmus test for yourself

24:01

is to think about how you use the words

24:03

old and young. You know, I hear

24:05

people say I don't feel old. What

24:08

they really mean is I don't feel invisible.

24:10

I don't feel useless, I don't feel incompetent.

24:13

We can feel those things at any age. Right,

24:16

That's how I felt at thirteen, for sure. Right.

24:19

But or I feel young means I feel energetic,

24:21

I feel sexy, I feel

24:24

you know, powerful. You can feel

24:26

those things at any age. So try

24:28

and step back from using old as

24:30

placeholder for in certain decrepit

24:33

awful thing, and young as the positive

24:35

thing, because those are not attributes that are

24:37

tied to our age. Not for a minute, let

24:39

are other examples a

24:42

senior moment. Senior moment

24:44

is bad, of course, because

24:46

any prophecy about decline

24:48

cognitive in particular is terrifying.

24:51

It's not that our fears of Alzheimer's

24:53

are not, you know, legitimate. It's a terrifying

24:56

disease. But no one knows that

24:58

rates of Alzheimer's are declining

25:01

fast, and that the odds

25:03

of you or I or anyone listening to this

25:05

of getting Alzheimer's have gotten lower and

25:07

lower, and that people are being diagnosed at later

25:10

ages. What about the term for

25:12

your age, You have some definite

25:14

views on that. You look great for

25:17

your age. Thank you. First

25:19

of all, speaking of habits, try and bite

25:21

that thank you before it gets out of your mouth.

25:24

It's really hard not to feel complimented.

25:26

But when you accept that

25:28

compliment, it's ages in the

25:31

most fundamental way, because it's reinforcing

25:33

the idea that younger is better. And

25:36

that's really the heart of the beast. Right, Younger

25:38

is sometimes better, older sometimes better.

25:41

Right, But this idea that old is bad

25:43

and young is good. You can

25:45

also only accept

25:47

the compliment at the expense of

25:50

everyone else your age who doesn't look quite as

25:52

good as you. And that's not a recipe

25:55

for social change or solidarity, right,

25:58

And the real question is why someone you

26:00

know bringing up age at all.

26:02

I do have the one good, snappy answer for you

26:04

look good for you was gonna say for

26:07

twelve years, and I came up with one. You say,

26:09

non snarkily, you look good for your age

26:11

too, and

26:15

just let it sit there because

26:17

the person meant it as a compliment. But

26:19

then they What you want to do is

26:22

force. I know force is a strong word, but

26:24

if we don't, you know, we don't, it takes a little jolt

26:26

to get us out of our group. Right, is to force

26:28

that moment of reflection, Gee, why

26:30

didn't that feel like a compliment? And the reason

26:33

it didn't is because it's embarrassing

26:35

to be called out as older. Until

26:37

we quit being embarrassed about it, and I can tell

26:40

that you're over it, and doesn't it feel

26:42

better. That's a great

26:44

idea. I'm going to try that. When

26:49

it comes to language. My

26:51

pet peeve is when people

26:54

used to say about my mom or dad they're

26:57

so cute. I

26:59

really found it offensive because

27:02

they were exceptional people. My

27:04

dad especially was brilliant, my

27:07

mom incredibly creative and

27:09

clever and funny,

27:11

and this cute thing was so diminishing

27:14

of everything about them. And

27:16

I feel like too often people

27:19

infantilize older

27:21

people, and it's really bugs

27:23

the ship out of me. I'm with you. There's

27:26

a fantastic researcher at Yale called Becca

27:28

Levi who coined a term for this elder

27:30

speak, and it is the honey,

27:33

sweetie deery thing. It's delegitimizing

27:36

of someone as a whole person and

27:39

someone who has a rich history. I think

27:41

my friends meant it as a compliment, but

27:43

I always bristled at it. A

27:46

really good rule of thumb is don't

27:48

call someone something you wouldn't want to be called

27:51

yourself. If you wouldn't want

27:53

to have someone call you cute

27:56

them. Think about whether you're using

27:58

it to someone else. Babies are cute, old

28:01

people are not cute, because you're absolutely

28:03

right. Is condescending and it turns

28:05

the clock back on all their years

28:07

and their richness and infantalizes them. Becca

28:09

Levy's research shows that even people

28:12

with advanced dementia react

28:14

badly to being condescended

28:16

to. Two elder speak. It's not good

28:18

for us. No one wants to be condescended

28:21

to at any age. How does

28:23

this play out in the workplace, Ashton? Because

28:25

obviously aged discrimination

28:28

for someone in his or her

28:30

job is a nightmare and

28:33

devastating. It is devastating.

28:35

And you could argue a little bit that it's really

28:37

hard for men because the workplace is

28:39

often the first place white men encounter discrimination

28:42

and a huge part of their sense of identity.

28:45

Women often have sort of a larger

28:47

circle of friends and other sources

28:49

of identity. But um,

28:51

that's the only thing I'll say in defense of white

28:54

men. You don't hate white men, do you know? But

28:56

I'm not wasting any energy looking

28:58

out for them because they're doing really

29:00

good job of looking out for themselves. Women

29:03

face the double whammy of agism and

29:05

sexism, and women of color face

29:07

the triple whammy of course of agism and sexism

29:10

and racism. I mean that is what

29:12

intersectionality means, is that all these

29:14

oppressions compound and reinforce each other,

29:16

add disability to the mix, and people, you

29:18

know, face huge obstacles to representation,

29:21

let alone you know, employment, Let alone employment

29:24

for a decent wage, let alone

29:26

employment for a wage that other people get, and

29:28

so on. We are

29:30

penalized. I know this is news to you for

29:32

our appearance. Economists have a

29:34

charming name for this, the attractiveness

29:37

penalty. Women stop getting

29:39

promoted to managerial positions

29:41

at thirty four in United States,

29:44

right because we might think about

29:46

having children, and you all, we

29:48

all know that your uterus and your brain cannot

29:50

function at the same time. And of course,

29:52

when you don't get promoted early on, all

29:55

these things compound. Women make less,

29:57

we save less, we're penalized

30:00

time out of the workforce, typically

30:02

spent on unpaid caregiving. If we

30:04

have pensions, therefore less money.

30:06

So women face this huge compounded

30:10

disadvantage. But it is the thing

30:12

about being in your childbearing years,

30:14

is that really ageism? Or you're

30:16

never the right. Oh, I think it's agism

30:19

and sexism. What does my reproductive

30:21

status have to do with the fact that I am joining

30:23

forces with a bunch of older women who might or

30:26

might not be post menopause. Men's

30:28

reproductive status is never called out.

30:30

Let's talk about the World Health Organization

30:33

and the study that they're conducting.

30:35

Now, I'm glad you brought that up, because

30:37

there is tons of fascinating

30:40

research that shows that attitudes towards

30:42

aging affect how our minds and

30:44

bodies function at the cellular

30:46

level. If you live in this fear based

30:49

zone where you only read the bad

30:51

news because that's most of what's accessible, you

30:53

have an unduly misinformed negative

30:55

view of aging. If you, on

30:58

the other hand, have a more positive, fact

31:00

based attitude, people live longer

31:03

an average of seven and a half years, longer, walk

31:05

faster, heal quicker even

31:07

from severe disability. And the latest

31:10

study out of Yale I'm not picking you

31:12

know, obscure science here shows

31:14

that people with more positive attitudes

31:16

towards aging are less likely to develop

31:19

dementia even if they have the gene that

31:21

predisposes them to the disease. So

31:24

obviously this is a fantastic argument

31:26

for a anti agism campaign as

31:28

a public health initiative. Up

31:32

neet some real talk from a woman who

31:35

tells it to us straight. We don't just

31:37

spot to be younger people, they're spot to be us

31:39

because quite frankly, you know,

31:41

at our age, we don't give

31:43

a ship. We'll have more on that

31:46

right after this. Cindy

31:52

Gallup is one of the most outspoken and influential

31:55

women in the world of advertising, a

31:57

male dominated, youth obsessed industry

32:00

if there ever was one. I've always

32:02

talked about and tried

32:05

to do things to help change,

32:07

you know, the lack of diversity across gender,

32:10

race, ethnicity, sexuality,

32:12

disability, and age. And so

32:14

this has just been one part of what I

32:16

feel very strong about. So what I would

32:18

like to like to drive change and advertising

32:21

is very interesting area because

32:24

the target demographics right

32:26

for many of these companies and many of

32:28

these products has forever been eighteen

32:31

to thirty four, right at least in my

32:33

business and television, or eighteen

32:36

to fifty four if you really want to stretch

32:38

it. But after fifty four they

32:40

don't really care. And I'm curious,

32:43

is that an outdated and equated

32:45

model in your view, absolute bloody lutely,

32:47

and it's part of a much

32:50

bigger problem which Ashton has quite

32:52

rightly highlighted, which is a patriarchy.

32:55

So at the top of my industry, as

32:57

at the top of your industry, and everyone instay is a close

32:59

loop of white guys talking to white guys by the white

33:01

guys. What that means in advertising

33:04

is that the primary

33:07

purchase of everything and the primary

33:09

influence of everything is female.

33:12

You know, that's that's the majority audience of advertising.

33:15

Of consumer goods are bought by

33:18

when But but the advertising industry is dominated by

33:20

men. So we are constantly being sold to

33:22

ourselves through the male gaze. And

33:25

equally, my industry is

33:27

extraordinarily agrees. Tina

33:29

Brown and I were talking recently and

33:32

we were saying, why

33:34

is this obsession still so

33:37

prominent, Because we were saying

33:39

that women, when their children

33:42

get older and they're out of the house,

33:44

they have more disposable income, they

33:47

have more freedom to travel, to

33:49

spend it, to do things, and yet

33:52

they're still kind of invisible. The

33:54

thing about that is everything we're

33:56

talking about. The solution is enormously

33:58

simple. If you want

34:00

to sell a ton of product

34:02

to older people in a way that

34:04

will make older people go, oh my god,

34:07

let me get my wallet out and give you all my money.

34:10

Have older people make the ads and

34:12

actually have older people create the ads,

34:14

approve the ads, produce the ads,

34:17

and direct the ads. If you had

34:19

older people in the industry operating at every

34:21

point along the way, we would

34:23

see much better advertising

34:26

and for normally aspirational depictions of ourselves.

34:29

Because the enormous irony is I

34:32

bang on a lot about the Evian Water campaign,

34:34

which for many years has run the tagline

34:36

live young and assumes that's

34:38

what we all want to do. I created the hashtag

34:41

live Older because we

34:43

are the ones living the aspirational

34:45

lifestyle. We have our own sense of

34:47

values, we have our own personal tastes.

34:50

We dress the way we want, we live the way we

34:52

want. If we're lucky, we have money

34:54

that means we can travel, we have more freedom.

34:57

These are all things that younger people are aspire to,

34:59

but we do not see our lifestyle

35:02

represented as aspirational that way in advertising

35:04

or anywhere in public culture. To play devil's

35:06

advocate, though, isn't brand

35:09

loyalty established kind of early

35:11

on? For example, I decided I like Colgate

35:13

toothpaste when I was twenty five,

35:15

and I still buy Colgate toothpaste.

35:18

So is there a reason that demographic

35:21

is targeted other than they

35:23

just don't like old people and the it's the patriarchy

35:26

making the decisions. It's a knee

35:28

jerk, unthinking reaction for

35:30

every brand that goes our

35:33

target a millennials, you know. And

35:35

if I was having this conversation with a credit director

35:37

in my industry who said

35:39

that, his team said to him and actually,

35:41

you know, I won't identify him, but the brand

35:44

was a very mass market,

35:46

very common household product, and

35:49

his team said to him, so we're going to target this millennials.

35:52

He went why why?

35:54

There was no reason for this politic product to be

35:56

targeted to young people more than

35:59

any other set of the population. So no, it really

36:01

is. It's a knee jerk reaction, and

36:04

it's a very wrong headed assumption also that

36:07

if you target your advertising at young people,

36:10

they will drive the attitudes

36:13

behave of older people because we all are spart

36:15

to be like them, and that is absolutely not the case.

36:18

Ashton and Sandy both think when it comes

36:20

to your age, you should own it baby.

36:23

They say, for women in general,

36:25

if you can't see it, you can't be it. Well, the same

36:27

for women once they become

36:29

older, right and am I allowed yous? Are it

36:31

older now very neurotic? No?

36:34

No, absolutely, But but but you know, I have

36:36

this thing, you know, I live here in Manhattan,

36:38

and I walk the streets of Manhattan and

36:41

I actively look at the

36:43

older people in the streets. I look at the older

36:45

women that I passed by, and I

36:47

know every single one of those older

36:50

women I see on the streets of Manhattan has

36:52

had an extraordinary life, you know, And

36:54

she's had an extraordinary life because I have some

36:56

idea as a woman of what she's been through. What

36:59

people just smiths rocketing through the streets of

37:01

New York as a little old lady. There

37:03

is a truly extraordinary saga

37:05

of strength and desperation

37:09

and difficulties and achievement

37:12

and fit. There's an amazing story behind

37:14

that person. And we are taught

37:16

as a society to look at older women and despise

37:19

them, to just instantly dismiss

37:21

them despises too strongle

37:23

I mean, no, I'm using that word in a patriarchal sense,

37:25

because that is what a lot of men

37:27

do consciously and unconsciously

37:30

as well. I regard myself that

37:32

I say this regularly, as you know, a proudly visible

37:34

member of the most invisible segment of our society,

37:37

which is older women. And so

37:39

I want to role model in my life, you

37:41

know, I want to completely counter

37:44

the way society thinks an older one should look like,

37:46

be like, talk like, dress like, work like, and

37:49

date like. And I want all of us to do

37:51

that. We can all take actions every single

37:53

day to change this. Okay, sign me up

37:55

like what and up there is

37:57

what is going to drive the change. It's not going to

38:00

come from consumer culture. It's not going to come

38:02

from advertising, it's not going to come from tech.

38:04

All those fields have an enormous

38:07

critical role to play. But

38:09

people's attitudes and incremental change

38:11

is what drives culture change, and that's

38:13

what is going to change the role

38:16

of So change happens from the bottom up,

38:18

not the top down microactions. So here's

38:20

the most important one. I

38:22

coined the hashtag say your age. Okay,

38:26

and I ask every woman,

38:28

and by the way, I asked men too. But but we are talking about

38:30

women here because ages that affects us much more

38:33

to say say her age,

38:35

Because because I've I've been shouting

38:37

my age from the rooftops for like like, for

38:39

I'm fifty nine. And the thing is that, my philosopher

38:42

here is the opposite of what people normally say

38:44

to count ages, and which is, oh, age is just a number.

38:46

No, it's not. Your age is a very

38:49

special number, because your age is

38:51

the sum total of you. I give an interview

38:53

um last year to a German

38:55

newspaper and the editor

38:58

on the phone call said to me at the anda, now,

39:00

Cindy, you know I have to apologize

39:03

in it that you know, I'm so sorry

39:05

about what I now have to ask you. But you know it is

39:07

a requirement that we ask everybody. And I'm thinking,

39:09

oh my god, I mean, what deeply personal thing is you

39:11

know? And he went, you know, so I'm so sorry

39:14

how old you? And I just I

39:16

had hysterics. I burst out laughing and I

39:18

said, I'm fifty ages, as you know, and I couldn't

39:21

care less. And so, you know, say your age

39:23

count anybody goes, oh ho ho, I won't ask

39:26

how old you are by telling them, and then

39:28

very importantly take

39:30

that valuation of you, as

39:33

in your age into the workplace.

39:35

And I recommend to women take it into job

39:38

interviews, So do

39:40

not do that thing, or you know,

39:43

shedding a few years on LinkedIn from your

39:45

resume, own your entire

39:47

career to date and say say

39:49

your age. I am fifty nine

39:51

and I am incredibly value because

39:54

I have fifty nine years worth off. You know what

39:56

that age means is I can

39:58

do this. I have expertise in this. I know some

40:00

cosmetic companies have stopped using the term

40:03

age defining, and that's

40:05

seen as some sign of progress.

40:07

Do you think it is? And what else do you think needs

40:10

to be done individually and

40:12

collectively? Um? Everything?

40:14

Now? I know Allure magazine was the first

40:16

to ban the term anti aging from

40:18

its pages, which was great. The

40:20

next sentence in the announcement linked to an

40:23

adver retin a I noticed that

40:25

also, But you know, we'll take it. Culture

40:27

change is slow and it's incremental.

40:29

But you know, aging is not just something annoying

40:32

all people do or parents. It is a process

40:34

that we embark upon the day we're

40:36

born. Aging is living. There's

40:38

a great um British writer named

40:41

and Cartfood told Brian Lair on NPR,

40:43

you can no more be anti aging than

40:46

anti breathing. So I

40:48

think thinking about how we just think

40:50

about the term aging as a substitute

40:53

for you know bad thing. Everyone

40:55

is aging, not just parents and celebrities.

40:58

It is terrible. When you see the internet

41:00

features, you won't believe what

41:02

they look like. Now. I think a

41:05

very fundamental concept here is the idea

41:07

of age shame. Why

41:09

on earth should waking up a

41:12

day older be a source of shame

41:14

when it is something every person does.

41:16

When we scrub our resumes

41:18

for early accomplishments, we reinforce

41:20

age shame when we die our

41:23

hair just to cover the gray, and

41:25

millions and millions of people do. I

41:27

totally understand and respect why no

41:30

judgment, But these behaviors

41:32

are not good for us because they're rooted

41:34

in shame about something that shouldn't be shameful,

41:37

and they give a pass to the discrimination

41:39

that makes those behaviors necessary.

41:42

If women worked right, and how much

41:44

money that would add to the economy, I

41:47

think nobody really talks about

41:49

how if people older people were

41:52

gainfully employed, how much that

41:54

would add to the persistent myth that older

41:56

people are drag on the economy. There's no truth

41:58

to it. You're making a point I make all the time,

42:01

because you know, when when I

42:03

talk about championing diversity as a whole and

42:05

ages them within that as one dimension of it, I

42:08

make the point that I am not doing

42:10

this because it's the right thing to do. I'm

42:12

doing this because I'm a hard head of pragmatic

42:14

businesswoman. And oh my

42:16

god, the impact on the American

42:19

economy when we eradicate agism

42:21

in the workplace, honestly, precisely

42:24

your point. The extraordinary pool of talent,

42:26

the resources, the point I made earlier,

42:28

the time and cost efficiency

42:31

of skills and expertise that have been honed over

42:33

decades, brought to bear on

42:35

the workplace and the workload in

42:38

any industry would

42:40

turbo charge every single

42:42

business towards a far more lucrative

42:44

future, and it would power the American economy

42:46

into a whole new era. Absent bloody lutely

42:49

so, older workers make very

42:51

good economic and business absolutely,

42:53

and I mean there was a Wild Street Journal piece about

42:55

Europe making use of older workers, but it paired

42:58

it. The headline was often at the spence

43:00

of younger workers. That is a

43:02

myth. It is called the fallacy of the lump

43:04

of labor. It is another way that we

43:07

are pitted against each other. In this case old

43:09

versus young, when it's position is

43:11

scarcity, it makes people nervous and

43:13

they read the story right, but

43:15

it is false. It is alarmist.

43:18

Same with this, you know metaphor

43:20

for population aging of the gray tsunami.

43:23

The baby boom is the best studied demographic

43:26

phenomenon in history. It's not some title

43:28

wave that's sneaking up the Hudson when we weren't

43:30

looking. You don't think they're going

43:32

to cost a lot of money as they age? They

43:34

you mean we yeah, yeah,

43:37

that's why that one I

43:40

think. I think, first

43:43

of all, spending on older people is often

43:45

portrayed as an expense. It is an investment.

43:48

This talk about older people, you know, sucking more

43:50

out of the system. The system was developed

43:52

to enable people with disabilities

43:55

or who have retired to remain self

43:58

sufficient. That's what the system was designed

44:00

for. Yes, there will be costs, but there

44:02

are also opportunities. Society

44:04

of longer lives is going to require massive

44:07

investment in infrastructure and in healthcare.

44:09

Those are real costs, and so embrace

44:12

us in the workforce and we will make you the

44:14

ton of money that thaw outweighs

44:17

those costs, right, and you know, address

44:19

agism in healthcare so

44:22

that so that older people receive better care

44:24

and and receive the care that we need.

44:27

We are facing um an enormously

44:29

troubled time on the planet. Leaders

44:32

and and politicians and corporate

44:34

leaders are already exploiting

44:36

deep divisions of race and class

44:39

and gender. We cannot afford

44:41

to add age to the mix. That's what

44:43

ages M does, pits old against young. It

44:46

is imperative that we overturn this

44:48

narrative that to ages to fail,

44:51

that older and younger people don't have anything in

44:53

common. I think it's enormously important to stackles

44:55

agism because the impact

44:59

on the American economy

45:02

of embracing and leveraging

45:04

the enormous potential in the older workforce

45:07

would dramatically power us

45:10

to a very different financial scenario,

45:12

which would give everybody young

45:14

and older like many more opportunities,

45:17

better ways of living and better ways

45:19

of aging, and ultimately just make

45:21

all of us a great deal happier. Just

45:25

spending some time with Lynn, Joannie

45:28

Ashton, and Cindy made me realize

45:30

that even I have misconceptions

45:32

about this particular demographic,

45:35

then I'm a part of Maybe agism

45:37

will stop being the last socially

45:39

acceptable is um if we

45:41

stop shaming people because of it, just

45:44

as our culture has become less tolerant

45:46

of body shaming. After

45:49

all, aging crosses all racial,

45:51

gender, and socioeconomic lines,

45:54

and it will happen to all of us one day

45:57

if we're lucky.

46:05

Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and

46:08

until we meet again, make sure to

46:10

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46:24

Next Question with Katie Couric is a production of I

46:26

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46:28

executive producers are Katie Kuric, Lauren

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46:32

Klang. Our show producers are Bethan Mcalouso

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producer is Dylan Fagan. Associate

46:39

producers are Emily Pinto and Derrek Clemens.

46:42

Editing by Dylan Fagan, Derrek Clements,

46:45

and Lowell Berlante. Our researcher

46:47

is Barbara Keene. For more information

46:49

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