0:00

You're listening to a Mama

0:03

Mia podcast. Mama Mia

0:05

acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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waters that this podcast is recorded on. From

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Mama Mia, you're listening to No Filter. My

0:20

name is Mia Friedman and my voice is

0:22

a little bit croaky, but bear with me,

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because this is a really interesting episode. I

0:27

always knew I was going to have kids. But

0:30

if you're a girl or a woman who doesn't

0:32

think she wants to have kids, where

0:35

are your role models for what your life could

0:37

look like? Because portrayals

0:39

of happy mums and just actually

0:41

mums are everywhere. But rarely

0:43

do we see women who choose

0:45

not to have children shown in

0:48

a positive light. Even

0:50

in this year of our Lord 2024, a

0:53

woman over 35 who doesn't have kids

0:55

is viewed with, what is

0:57

it, like pity, suspicion,

0:59

confusion, apprehension,

1:02

maybe. And

1:04

if that's you, if you're one of those

1:06

women who for whatever reason doesn't have kids,

1:09

you're forced to deal with

1:11

some pretty nosy and frankly

1:13

rude questions. Why

1:15

don't you have them? Do you want kids? Don't

1:18

you like kids? Have you

1:20

chosen ambition over motherhood? Have

1:23

you put your work and your

1:25

career before family? Who'll

1:28

look after you when you're old? Aren't

1:30

you worried about dying alone? Have

1:32

you thought about adopting? What about egg donation?

1:34

It's never too late. Or a

1:36

surrogate? You sure you won't change your mind?

1:39

I bet you'll change your mind. It's

1:43

pretty brutal, the questions that you get asked

1:45

if you don't have kids. And I am

1:47

going to admit I'm guilty of asking some

1:49

of those questions and saying some of those

1:51

things myself. Now,

1:55

I'm careful who I say them to, because

1:57

the thing is, the thing that I've learned

1:59

is because. We all know women

2:01

who don't have children, even

2:03

though they really wanted them, because maybe they

2:06

had fertility issues or maybe they just

2:08

didn't meet the right person at the

2:10

right time. And now

2:12

that window and that choice is not

2:14

available to them. And for

2:16

those people, those women, it's an incredibly fraught

2:18

topic and a really distressing one at times

2:20

because they really wanted to be a mother

2:22

or maybe they thought they would be a

2:24

mother and it just

2:26

wasn't their choice not to be one.

2:29

But there are more and more women who

2:31

aren't child free by circumstance, they're child free

2:34

by choice. And this

2:36

seems to bring up a whole lot of

2:38

weird feelings in people who feel like it's

2:41

their job to convince everyone to procreate. And

2:43

I don't even know why this is. But

2:46

when I was thinking about this episode, I started making

2:48

a list in my head of all

2:50

the famous women I could think of who

2:52

didn't have kids. And I thought of

2:54

Gloria Steinem and Julie Bishop and

2:57

Elizabeth Gilbert and Julia

2:59

Gillard, all of whom I've interviewed on the

3:01

show actually, Jennifer Aniston and

3:03

Renee Zellweger, Angela Merkel, Kylie

3:05

Minogue, Tracy Ellis Ross, Chelsea

3:08

Handler, Carmilla Harris,

3:10

the vice president. These

3:12

are women who've accomplished and are still

3:14

accomplishing so much. They're living very fulfilling

3:16

lives without children as so many women

3:18

are. And yet as

3:20

a society, we still don't really

3:23

know not just how to accept

3:25

that some women don't want children, but

3:27

that some women celebrate it. And if the women

3:30

are listed, we don't know how many

3:32

of those women are child free

3:34

or child less, because there's kind of a

3:36

difference, isn't there? We don't know

3:38

how many of them actually chose not to have

3:40

kids. But instead of pitying

3:42

those women or viewing their lives as somehow

3:45

less than the lives of women who are

3:47

mothers, today you're gonna hear a

3:49

different story. Farra Stor

3:51

celebrates her life and she's proud of her choice

3:53

to be a non-parent, which makes it sound like

3:56

she wears some kind of badge going, I don't

3:58

have kids and I don't have kids. so

4:00

proud or that she organizes parades. That's

4:02

not true. But she prefers

4:04

the term non-parent because

4:07

she says childless makes

4:09

it sound like her life is lacking,

4:11

which she says it's not. And she

4:13

says child free makes it seem like

4:15

she doesn't like kids and she does.

4:18

You're going to hear more about all of that in a minute. Now

4:21

throughout her career, Farah has worn many hats.

4:23

She was a journalist before she became the

4:25

founding editor of Women's Health magazine in

4:27

the UK. She was the editor of Cosmo

4:30

and Elle. And today she works

4:32

for Substack, which is a newsletter platform.

4:34

And she also writes her own essays

4:36

on Substack called Things Worth

4:38

Knowing. I'm excited about

4:40

bringing you this conversation today because now at 45,

4:45

10 years after she and her

4:47

husband officially decided to stop trying

4:49

to have kids, Farah

4:51

is offering us a much fuller,

4:53

more optimistic and positive picture of

4:56

what choosing a life as a non-parent can

4:58

look like. She is now one

5:00

of those role models. Here's

5:03

my conversation with Farah Stor. How

5:08

long had you been trying to get pregnant and how

5:10

old were you at the time? So

5:12

I was 36 at the time and

5:14

we had been trying maybe

5:16

for about three years, I think three or four

5:18

years. But you know, when I say trying, I

5:21

also think that the signs were there. You know,

5:24

my husband had bought me all these fertility monitors and

5:26

I remember he found it one time and he went,

5:28

Farah, it's got dust on it. And so all

5:30

the sorts of signs were there really that

5:32

even though we were sort of doing everything

5:34

right, you know, we were having sex when

5:37

we knew we had to have sex and

5:39

I was occasionally using the fertility monitor. You

5:41

know, I was looking after my body. I was making sure I was in

5:44

the best shape of my life. But

5:46

really the sort of

5:48

dedication I think it needed when

5:50

I look back now, it probably wasn't quite

5:52

there to the degree that I see other

5:54

women dedicated to the pursuit of motherhood and

5:56

having a child. Well, you were actually doing

5:59

a lot though. You were- exactly phoning it in, right?

6:01

I mean, I did so much. I went on

6:03

these crazy fasts. I went to see this woman

6:05

who was like, you know, she was like the

6:07

European expert on fertility. You weren't finding

6:09

it in. No, I mean, I'm pretty good at when

6:11

I set my mind on something. I'd go after it.

6:13

So I was doing all the things that I thought

6:15

you should do, but yet behind the scenes when it

6:17

was sort of left to my own devices, you

6:20

know, just do fertility monitor. I

6:23

think there was this sort of ray

6:25

ambivalence behind it all, but the big sort

6:27

of show of I'm really trying really hard

6:29

to get pregnant. Everyone, I definitely do all

6:31

that to the signs and signals that I

6:34

wanted to have a family suit that

6:37

with some gusto. For those who

6:39

haven't experienced the very specific misery

6:41

of conception sex when

6:44

you're trying to get pregnant, what

6:46

are your memories of that type of sex

6:48

without, you know, wanting to pry too much?

6:50

Well, I think it's very mechanical, isn't it?

6:52

It's like there's a goal at the end

6:55

of it. So of course it takes all

6:57

the emotion away. It takes the enjoyment away.

6:59

It's very bleak. I say

7:01

speaking from experience. It's very, very bleak.

7:03

It's like doing your taxes,

7:05

but also if you are desperate to

7:08

get pregnant, as I was when it

7:10

wasn't working, you're also just

7:12

incredibly emotional. And yeah, it's

7:15

deeply unpleasant. Was it that for you? It wasn't

7:17

deeply unpleasant because I think the emotions weren't there.

7:19

And I think it was a mechanical thing. It

7:22

was something we knew we had to do. We

7:24

had to do it on this date and we

7:26

had to quickly make sure that we never missed

7:28

it. But for me,

7:31

there was never the emotional side to

7:33

it. And then every month when my

7:35

period came, I didn't have

7:37

that crushing sort of devastation. So every time

7:39

I went to the toilet and it was

7:41

like, Oh, you know, you see the spot

7:43

of blood, it was like fine.

7:45

And I wonder also whether there was a

7:47

bit of relief in it as well. You

7:50

can deceive yourself very well. I think sometimes

7:53

you write a piece a couple of years

7:55

ago saying farewell to motherhood. You

7:57

started it by writing, I always thought I would be a mother

7:59

right. until the afternoon I walked into my

8:01

husband's home office and told him I no

8:03

longer wanted to be one. Do

8:06

you remember what you actually said to him? I

8:08

think it was very simple. I think it was

8:10

just, I'm not sure I want to be

8:12

a mother. And I remember

8:14

his response was, good,

8:17

because I'm not sure I want to be a father either. It

8:20

was a very simple exchange. Given

8:22

you're about to start IVF, this

8:25

is a fairly unexpected time it would seem

8:27

from the outside to be having

8:29

that conversation. The decision

8:31

that you didn't want to do it,

8:33

you wrote it came during an appointment

8:36

with your doctor. Do you

8:38

remember what happened in that appointment and why

8:42

it became clear to you in that moment

8:44

after so many years of trying? Well, I think

8:46

the moment of clarity was probably in that doctor's

8:49

office. But actually, I think there were so many

8:51

things that had led to it. But actually, I

8:53

think what it was was she was

8:55

explaining to me the chances of us getting

8:57

pregnant. They were pretty good. And I think

8:59

she said it was something like 40%. 42%,

9:01

she said. And

9:04

actually, that's really good. But all I

9:07

was thinking was, was, God, that's terrible.

9:10

And actually, everything that we will

9:12

have to sacrifice

9:15

in order to have this relatively, in

9:17

my head, low probability of getting pregnant,

9:20

I wasn't sure if I was ready for

9:22

it. Because the other thing

9:24

about IVF, and I'm always very grateful to

9:26

the women who had gone through, who had

9:28

told me about this in the lead up

9:30

to it, was they said, you know, things

9:32

will change, your hormones will go crazy, your

9:34

relationship may be a little bit ravaged. And

9:37

I wasn't sure that I

9:39

was up for the job of doing it.

9:41

And the other point, of course, was that

9:43

we had discussed earlier on that who was

9:45

going to do the chief childcare giving. And

9:47

actually, my husband had said because at that

9:49

time, I was an editor, I was earning

9:52

more than him. He was just sort of

9:54

making it as a writer, he was on

9:56

the cusp of about to make it. And

9:58

he said, Look, I will sacrifice. There

14:00

were no other daydreams about being

14:02

a mother apart from that. And

14:05

of course, there's no guarantee that I

14:07

was ever going to get that to have that

14:09

sort of relationship with an 18 year old. So

14:11

we never really spoke about it ever again. It's

14:14

funny when you stop and think about the parts

14:16

of other people's lives that we feel entitled to

14:18

ask about or to weigh in on. You

14:21

know, we ask people what they do for work

14:23

or if they're in a relationship. And

14:25

we're curious about where someone lives or

14:27

what political party they support or maybe

14:30

what school they went to. And

14:32

most of the time, these are just harmless

14:34

curiosities and sort of part of being human

14:37

right out in the world and small talk,

14:39

trying to relate or connect to

14:41

other human beings and kind of place them

14:44

in the filing system of our brains

14:46

and our sort of ideas about who

14:48

people are. It's sort of

14:50

how we're hardwired to try and understand each other.

14:52

But asking a woman whether she has kids or

14:54

not or whether she wants

14:56

kids, that can often

14:58

be far more complicated and just very

15:01

personal to sort of casually wander into

15:03

as far as territory goes. And

15:05

you know what, as I said before, I've done it,

15:08

you've done it, we've all done it. And I've done

15:10

it so many times and then really regretted it. And

15:13

as you're about to hear from Farah, it's

15:15

time that we learn to tread a little

15:17

more gently around this topic. I

15:19

was taking notes when she said this part. You

15:26

two were very much on the same page and

15:28

fast didn't need to talk about it much more.

15:31

But other people did. And reading

15:33

the two pieces that you wrote on

15:36

your sub stack a couple of years

15:38

apart, one about farewelling motherhood and

15:40

the other about how not to be a

15:42

mother, which was towards the end of last

15:44

year, about what life is like on the

15:46

other side. I was

15:48

really struck about the fact that you must

15:50

have to come out almost in a

15:53

way again and again and

15:55

again and talk about this decision that you'd

15:57

made. You write about the

15:59

dinner party. question because you were 37 when

16:01

you decided not to have kids, which meant

16:03

you say at dinner parties with strangers, the

16:05

question of children would always come up. What

16:08

would people say? And was it something that you

16:10

had to sort of steal

16:12

yourself to answer again and again? Well,

16:15

what usually would happen is obviously I look like a

16:17

woman of a certain age. So people very

16:20

benignly would just say, do you have children? In

16:23

the beginning, I used to bristle a little bit

16:25

because of course admitting that I didn't have children

16:27

and I didn't have children by choice. What I

16:29

thought the world would perceive that to be was

16:31

I didn't like children, which is very different from

16:34

not wanting children. It's not that I didn't want

16:36

children in my life, which is why that child

16:38

free thing really sort of irks me because actually

16:40

I really like kids. I spent a

16:42

lot of my life with them. I was a mentor when I

16:44

was 26 to a young child. I mean, I like kids, but

16:46

I didn't want to be a mother. And I think that was

16:48

the difference. But yeah, when people would say,

16:50

look, do you have children? And then I would say no,

16:53

I think they didn't quite know how

16:55

to do a follow up. So what would happen is

16:57

I would always just volunteer the

16:59

whole story. And then of course, people look

17:01

slightly ill at ease because it

17:03

was like, well, what's this person trying to justify

17:05

their decision not to have children? So in the

17:07

early days when people would ask me that question,

17:10

do you have children? I would

17:12

then go no, and then I would explain to them why.

17:15

But as I got older, I didn't

17:18

feel that I needed to anymore. So I think

17:20

I was looking at my parents and

17:24

my in-laws have been very

17:26

cool about the whole thing. Obviously, they would like it

17:28

if we'd have had children, they'd be grandparents, of course.

17:31

But we're a generation that were told

17:33

you have choices to how you live your life.

17:35

And of course, both sets of parents have been

17:38

very true to that, their respect to the decision.

17:40

Not that they had a lot of choice. No,

17:42

they had any choice. No, they were very good.

17:44

They didn't really prod. My father is Asian for

17:46

him. It's a really big thing for you not

17:48

to have children. Do they have any other grandchildren

17:50

on each side? Just one. I mean, there's four

17:53

of us, but there's just one. And actually, we

17:55

have one coming on the way. So actually, there will be

17:57

two grandchildren. And what about on your it with your in-laws?

17:59

Do they have? I

22:00

could still change my mind. It's

22:02

not so wild a statement. People did say that.

22:04

They go, oh, well, you've

22:06

still got time to change your mind. Did

22:08

that annoy you when people said that? It's

22:10

very implying that I know better than you

22:13

about your own decisions. Yeah.

22:15

I think it is annoying. It's very

22:17

smug. I think it is annoying. It's

22:19

like, exactly, we know better and trust

22:21

you. With the wisdom of age, you

22:23

will change your mind. That

22:25

whole thing of, you've still got time to change

22:27

your mind, really. In the

22:29

beginning, I perceived as you will change your

22:31

mind. Actually, there was a part of me

22:33

that was like, well, maybe I will. I

22:36

just don't know. But this is the best

22:38

decision that I can make at this point

22:40

in my life. Remember, I'd taken on a

22:42

very big job at that point. I was

22:45

editor of Cosmo, which of course was all

22:47

about women's choice. Underlying

22:49

the decision, which of course you don't go into

22:51

with strangers. But I think if

22:53

strangers had pressed me more on it, one of the

22:56

other reasons was that whole premise,

22:58

which of course Cosmo started or certainly

23:01

contributed to the narrative of having

23:03

it all. I never believed it

23:05

was true for me. That's

23:07

a really important thing to look at, which

23:09

is of course some people can have it

23:11

all. But I'm a worker. I struggle with

23:13

things. I have to work really, really hard

23:15

to get the success that I've had. Like

23:17

really hard. I think a lot harder than

23:19

other people behind the scenes. It's real grind

23:21

stuff for me. So being the

23:24

sort of mother I would want to be, and I know what

23:26

I'm like, I'm obsessive. It would have been all

23:29

encompassing, but also just taken on

23:31

this job, which is a job that I'd always

23:33

wanted. I didn't

23:35

think that I could do both of them

23:37

sufficiently well. That was a sort of, I

23:40

said there were a myriad number of reasons

23:42

why I made the decision. But that was

23:44

certainly one that played into it for sure.

23:46

Isn't it interesting? Because I got pregnant unexpectedly

23:48

just a few months after starting as editor

23:50

of Cosmo in Australia. And it

23:53

never occurred to me that I couldn't. Like

23:56

it never for one second occurred to me

23:58

that I couldn't do. You

26:03

wrote basically a fantastic piece for your

26:06

sub stack called How Not to Be

26:08

a Mother. And you sort of

26:10

said, so many people write about

26:12

the choice, but I want

26:14

to talk about what life is like

26:16

on the other side of that choice

26:18

down the track where the gates

26:21

kind of closed. It's not still up for

26:23

debate as far as you're concerned. It's

26:25

done. You say it's a list of things

26:27

from the other side, things we don't really talk about, but

26:29

probably should. Why did

26:31

you make that list? I've had

26:34

sort of almost 10 years now of occasionally

26:36

writing about being child free. I don't always write

26:39

about it. I get asked a lot, but I

26:41

don't always write about it. Is that because you

26:43

don't want to be defined by it or because

26:45

you're bored of it? Why do you say no

26:47

to a lot of invitations to talk about it?

26:49

I think a little bit of both. I think it's the

26:51

two things. I think, you know, in

26:54

the same way that if I was a mother, I

26:56

would not expect anyone to define me just as a

26:58

mother. In the same way, I didn't

27:00

expect people just to define me as there's the child

27:02

free woman. And as you know, in journalism, it's very

27:04

easy to get in that rut of people go, child

27:07

free, let's get fired to write about it. Let's

27:09

get fired and write about it. And look,

27:11

here I am. Farrah, come

27:14

and talk to me on No Filter. Thank you

27:16

for saying yes to me, even though you say no to

27:18

so many other people. Very welcome. And

27:21

also I thought I had written everything that there was to

27:23

say. I didn't, as a woman

27:25

in her late 30s, early 40s, have anything

27:27

else to say about it. But

27:29

of course, what had happened is in the

27:31

sort of maybe, you know, two or three

27:33

pieces I have written, whether I

27:36

liked it or not, there were

27:38

a number of young women who reached out

27:41

to me all the time constantly

27:43

through social media. They picked

27:45

up on something. And what it made me think is these

27:47

women were obviously looking for answers, and they'd probably found an

27:49

old thing that I'd written years ago. And

27:51

then they would come out to me and they would say, thank you.

27:54

I started to notice a pattern, of course, which

27:56

was there didn't seem to be many people who

27:58

were telling me that. the different or

28:01

the alternative narrative. And

28:03

so when I reach 45, you're right, the choice

28:05

has pretty much been

28:07

taken away from you pretty much. I mean,

28:09

I cannot imagine a world where I would

28:11

now fall pregnant naturally. And actually,

28:13

I think when the choice has gone, you

28:16

then start to look at the life that you've built without children, because

28:18

if I'd have had a child at 34, it would have been like

28:20

10 or 12 now. And so it's like, okay, well, what did I

28:22

do in those 12 years? I'd

28:24

actually done an awful lot. And the shape

28:27

of my life actually looked

28:29

pretty good. And I thought that

28:31

was probably something worth sharing with

28:33

people, particularly these young women, who

28:36

were thanking me for talking

28:38

about the choice to be child free. But actually,

28:40

after that, they have nowhere else to go. And

28:42

so actually, what I wanted to say to them

28:45

was, well, look, this is what once the choice

28:47

has gone, because that's coming for you next. This

28:49

is what an alternative life might look like for you.

28:52

I want to go through some of the points on

28:54

your list, because they're so full of wisdom. The first

28:57

one is about relief. What

28:59

kind of relief did you experience? Well, I think

29:01

there's any relief, isn't it? When choice is taken

29:03

away from you, if you're a warrior like

29:05

me, if you're sort of high neuroses, choice is

29:07

a difficult thing. There's always the feeling of did

29:10

I do the right thing? Once

29:12

that choice has gone, it's incredible.

29:14

It's a whole part of your brain that

29:16

doesn't have to deal with this subject anymore.

29:18

And by the way, it probably

29:21

occupied more of my thoughts than I probably

29:23

let on. Had we made the

29:25

right decision, even though me and Will didn't talk about

29:27

it, I'm almost certain it would have

29:29

taken up a huge amount of energy. And

29:31

so now that's gone, it's sort of like

29:33

this space in my mind, which is much

29:36

freer. Children or the whole

29:38

topic of children, my children or my sort

29:40

of theoretical children, it's just gone. So it's

29:42

sort of a brain space that I have,

29:44

and that's a relief. The other

29:46

relief, of course, is people don't want to

29:49

talk to you anymore about your

29:51

choice. Except me. Except you. Except

29:53

me today. They assume, of course, you can't change your

29:55

mind because it's too late for you. So people occasionally

29:57

will still ask me, do you have children?

30:00

and I'll say no, and then they'll move

30:02

on to something else. And of

30:04

course, that's a two-way thing because I don't feel I

30:06

have to justify to them anymore how as a 45-year-old

30:08

woman I don't have children. But also

30:11

I think people just realize, you know, they look at me

30:13

and they go, well, she's a woman of a certain age,

30:15

she probably can't have children anymore. She's obviously

30:17

made some decisions in her life and it

30:19

doesn't really go any further. When we were

30:21

talking about that earlier, about that question, do

30:23

you have kids? I think

30:25

we've also learned, I'm now very careful

30:28

not to ask that. Occasionally I will and

30:30

every time I'll regret it. You're right, it's

30:32

okay asking someone our age, well, you're younger

30:34

than me, but someone who's kind of mid-40s

30:36

or above. But when you

30:38

ask someone who's perhaps in their late

30:41

30s or very early 40s, you

30:43

can accidentally trip over a landmine

30:45

and there can be some very

30:47

difficult, devastating answers to that question.

30:49

It can be around child loss.

30:51

It can be around not

30:53

everybody chooses not to become a mother. You

30:56

know, some people are childless. Some

30:58

people are child free. You don't

31:00

like either of those terms for the reasons

31:02

that you've spoken about. You prefer non-parent. And

31:05

I think we've understood as a society, I hope,

31:07

to be a little more discreet and to just be

31:10

careful about rummaging in people's

31:13

pockets of maybe things that are very close

31:15

to their heart. You're 100% right. And

31:17

actually I think Mia, when people used to ask

31:20

me and I used to bring out this monologue,

31:22

that was me working my way through something. It

31:24

was probably my own sort of therapy. So

31:27

I think you're right. I think if it's a woman of

31:29

a certain age, I agree. I don't

31:31

go near it unless they prompt and ask me

31:33

about it. Okay, so the number two

31:35

thing on your list, the second thing that you've

31:37

discovered and you want people to know is that

31:40

other relationships will blossom. Can

31:42

you explain that? You wrote about your mother

31:44

and your relationship with her. Yeah,

31:46

I mean, once the sort of mother-child

31:48

dynamic is out of the equation for

31:50

you, then you have this time to

31:53

think about well, what

31:55

are the other relationships which are open to you

31:57

now? And the other relationships are, I'm lucky that

31:59

my parents. parents are still alive, my mother is still

32:01

alive, she's in good health. And

32:03

we have become much closer. And I

32:07

think one of the wonderful things about me not

32:09

being a mother is getting to

32:11

know my mother as a person as

32:13

opposed to a mother. Yeah,

32:16

or a grandmother. Exactly. There's no conversation which

32:18

friends have told me, well, you talk about

32:20

the kids, that's what you do when you

32:22

start to understand your mother as a mother

32:24

once you're a mother, you have that

32:26

incredible link with each other because you empathize with her

32:28

and what she went through. I don't

32:30

have that. But what I can have with my

32:33

mother is an understanding of

32:35

her and what she was like

32:37

as a middle aged woman like me. And so we have

32:39

a, you know, I was just away with her at the

32:41

weekend in Cambridge, we have a really

32:43

wonderful relationship now where I think

32:46

I probably get to find out much

32:48

more about her, Linda, as a woman, as opposed

32:51

to her as a mother. You know,

32:53

the other thing, throughout my whole

32:55

career, I never had a lot of friends, I just

32:57

didn't have time. And now I'm

32:59

at a point in my life where I

33:02

can lean into friendship much more. Now, of course,

33:04

within my age, most of them do have family.

33:06

So actually, the women that I have friendships with

33:08

just turned out that way. They

33:10

are mothers, but they're in their 50s.

33:12

And that's not to say teenagers are

33:15

difficult, but they've got a bit more

33:17

freedom in their life. And so those

33:19

relationships with older women is something that

33:22

is incredible. And I feel really

33:24

lucky that as a 40 something women,

33:26

I get to have a lot of women in their

33:28

50s and 60s in my life who I think are

33:30

at that point in their lives where they have an

33:32

enormous amount of wisdom and space in their

33:35

life to give to friendship. So there's

33:37

that as well. So there's all these different

33:39

relationships. I'm so glad you said that because

33:41

unexpected friendships was another thing on this list.

33:43

And because I had kids, I was a

33:45

lot younger than any of my friends, I

33:47

was completely out of step. So when a

33:50

lot of my friends had really young kids,

33:52

I was in a very different life stage because

33:54

my kids were older. And I

33:57

remember saying to someone or observing that

33:59

I had more... in common with my friends

34:01

who didn't have kids than with my

34:03

friends who had little kids. It

34:05

was like coming together again with my friends after

34:08

our paths had diverged for a while when I

34:10

was in the thick of it. Suddenly,

34:12

I had the same kinds of freedoms that

34:14

they had when all my friends with little

34:17

kids were kind of locked down for years

34:19

and years. I think that's right, isn't it?

34:21

I think there is a lockdown and I

34:23

sort of understand that. I don't particularly

34:26

pursue relationships with mothers who have young kids

34:28

because I know there's only so much they're

34:30

going to be able to give and that's

34:33

quite right. That's absolutely right. I'll probably see

34:35

them on the other side and if the

34:37

friendship's worth anything it will be absolutely fine

34:39

in 10, 15 years' time. I've

34:42

sort of gone looking in different areas

34:44

for friendships really and who is available

34:46

to give the friendship at any point

34:48

in life. I'm available. The

34:51

unknown is another thing on your list.

34:53

I really love this. You talked about making your own

34:56

rituals and defining family. Can

34:58

you talk a bit about that? All the rituals

35:01

that sort of families have, so Christmas

35:03

and opening the presents together and

35:05

someone dressing up as Santa. We

35:07

don't have that. You have to

35:10

sort of make your own

35:12

patchwork quilt of what your own family's rituals

35:15

look like. For Christmas, the presents

35:18

in the evening or for Christmas actually, we

35:20

go away to a log cabin in the

35:22

middle of nowhere. We don't really see anybody.

35:24

It's just us and the dogs and that's

35:26

a ritual for us. We escape from the

35:28

world. We miss out on a

35:30

whole load of these things. Halloween comes and goes.

35:33

Of course, you see these parents with these kids going out

35:35

in the streets and that's sort of not available to us,

35:37

which is absolutely fine but around that time we always go

35:39

away on a mini break with the dogs and it's not

35:41

the same. You have to

35:44

start making different patterns because the

35:46

family ones are not available.

35:48

But actually, just because they're not available

35:50

doesn't mean that you can't find a

35:52

replacement. Find meaning in other places. You

35:55

say that another thing on your list is that

35:57

your worries will differ. What do you

36:00

worry about? it's perhaps different to a

36:02

parent that you've noticed. I

36:04

think the one thing where those people were

36:06

right when they go, life is long, except

36:08

of course now I think life is very

36:10

short. When people used to say, life

36:12

is long when you really need to think about it, I think

36:15

actually it was a very good sort of

36:17

jumping off point to start thinking about, well,

36:20

what is the purpose or what is the point? I

36:22

mean, purpose is now such a bloody cliche. And of

36:24

course, people's children are not always their purpose. But

36:27

I worry now about sort of what, which

36:29

is very arrogant, say what I'm going to leave behind.

36:32

I worry probably a lot more about health,

36:35

old age, I worry

36:37

probably more about social problems, because I

36:39

have the space to start thinking about things outside of

36:42

it. But I don't have to worry

36:44

about raising a human being. So my

36:46

worries are, well, will I ever leave an imprint

36:48

on the world? I might not leave an imprint

36:50

on the world, but you sort of have to

36:52

try, I think. So my worries

36:54

are, what good can I

36:57

do? Or what can I do? I think actually it's

36:59

what can I build. I think that's a big thing.

37:01

I think when you're building a human being, there's a

37:03

huge amount of energy and people will probably take this

37:05

the wrong way, but a huge amount of creativity into

37:07

building a good human being for the world, I imagine.

37:09

I mean, you're a mother, you'll know much better than

37:11

me. Yeah. Also money. Of course

37:13

money. Time. Jokes aside, there's a lot

37:15

of emotional energy and they also say

37:17

you're only as happy as your least

37:19

happy child. I really remember that. I

37:21

mean, the constant threat. I wasn't sure

37:23

again that I wanted that in my

37:26

life. That is a selfish thing. I

37:28

don't know. I don't know if it's

37:30

selfish, but I just think it's more

37:32

contained. It's not that your life will

37:34

be happier necessarily if you don't have

37:36

kids, but your happiness or your unhappiness

37:38

will be your own. Like your heart will not

37:41

be living outside of your body. It will

37:43

be living inside of your body. You

37:45

can't rely on another person, ultimately, whether

37:47

that's your child, to bring your happiness.

37:50

So I think that was another thing which

37:52

that phrase is bleak in a way, but

37:54

I think it's probably very true. I mean,

37:56

don't they say that every time a child

37:58

walks out the door, they're taking their mother's

38:00

heart with them. Yeah, it's just walking around

38:02

out in the world. Absolutely terrifying. So, you

38:05

know, I suppose I think a lot now about,

38:07

well, actually, I do want to put my

38:09

heart out into the world. I actually do want that,

38:11

not in the way that we're talking about. But you

38:13

have to start thinking about how are you going to

38:16

do that. And actually, what is the thing you are

38:18

going to build? Because actually, I do think most people

38:20

need projects in life, they need personal

38:22

projects, they need meaning, I need

38:25

the grind, I need to keep building something. So

38:27

you start thinking about that, what's the thing

38:29

that I want to build if there's not

38:31

a human life here. Another thing you want

38:33

people to know that's on the list is

38:35

that your feelings about not being a mother

38:38

change. And you talk about in your

38:40

30s, it still felt a bit

38:42

fraught, and you perhaps had to justify it. And

38:44

because there was, as you say, there's still that

38:46

opportunity to change your mind. And

38:49

questioning, have I made the right decision? Okay, do

38:51

I still not want kids? Okay, how about tomorrow?

38:53

What about next week? Will I still not want

38:55

kids then? Then in your 40s, you said you

38:58

felt relieved. And

39:00

then how do you feel now in your mid 40s?

39:03

I don't even think about it. It's not

39:05

anything apart from I knew we were having

39:07

this conversation. And I actually had to remind

39:09

myself, okay, well, what are my thoughts about

39:11

motherhood? Because actually, it's just

39:14

not a thing, it just doesn't occupy my

39:16

mind at all now. You used a word

39:18

though, that I found really interesting. And it's

39:21

proud. You feel proud. Can

39:23

you remember what that word means in this

39:25

context? I feel proud in that everything

39:28

that I thought about, which was how am I going

39:30

to build a life? How am I going to have

39:32

purpose? How am I going to have a

39:34

narrative to other people about why I chose not to be a

39:36

mother? I feel like I've wrapped

39:38

a lot of that up now. And I feel

39:40

like, I mean, who knows, things can change. But

39:43

I feel like I've reached a

39:45

place where I'm happy or certainly content.

39:48

I feel pretty full. I have

39:50

good relationships, which are alternative, perhaps relationships

39:52

to those some 45 year old woman

39:54

would ordinarily have at this point in

39:56

her life. And I suppose I feel

39:58

proud that I made a decision. that

40:01

has helped some other people. And

40:03

actually I'm able to show that actually not being

40:06

a mother isn't gonna define your life. Cause that's

40:08

the other thing I worried about, not being a

40:10

mother would define my life. And of

40:12

course what I'm proud of is

40:14

it really doesn't. It actually becomes after a

40:17

certain age, very immaterial. Really,

40:19

defines your life is what you

40:21

choose to build around your life. So I

40:23

think I feel proud of all of those

40:25

things actually. Another

40:28

thing on the list that you say people should

40:30

know is that people will be less awkward around

40:32

you. And you talk about the

40:34

difference between 30s and mid 40s,

40:36

which we've touched on, that there's less

40:39

of that, Oh, are you

40:41

okay? Why? Like that idea that

40:43

at 45, it's

40:45

probably more likely to be a scar

40:47

than a wound, whatever that your reasons

40:50

for not having children, whether they were

40:52

proactive or they were sort of thrust

40:54

upon you. Is that what you've

40:56

noticed that there are less of those probing

40:58

questions? Yes, I don't go to many dinner parties,

41:01

but the truth is it's not up for common.

41:03

Nobody asked me anymore. I imagine new

41:05

people think I'm a woman of a certain age. So

41:07

probably I have older children, they just don't ask. And

41:10

those people that do know me and know that

41:12

I chose not to have children, the concept of,

41:15

do you ever regret it? Nobody

41:17

ever asked me. What I do get a lot

41:19

of is people going, what do you do

41:21

with your time? Where you're going away? So I

41:23

get a lot of that. I think the other thing that

41:25

I get actually, which is interesting, and

41:27

I wonder if this is because I'm not a

41:29

mother, is I get a

41:31

lot of women mothers talking very freely

41:34

to me about being a mother. And

41:36

I think, I'm not sure, but I think

41:38

it's because there's no

41:40

possibility of judgment because I possibly, however

41:43

they feel towards their child, nothing's going

41:45

to shock me because I've got

41:47

nothing to compare it to. So that

41:49

is actually not something I don't think was on my

41:52

list, but actually that's a very privileged thing I think

41:54

I have, which is I find a lot of women,

41:57

cause I've spoken to a lot of women over the years about

41:59

motherhood and I feel that... there's a sort of very

42:01

open dialogue, which might not, I feel

42:03

it might not be available to them

42:06

with other mothers, because of course other

42:08

mothers, I imagine, bring so much of

42:11

their role of being a mother. So anything

42:13

you're gonna say, so there was a woman I spoke

42:15

to recently, I interviewed her actually for my

42:17

sub stack, and she loves a child,

42:19

and I think that goes without question. But

42:22

she talked about, you know, moments

42:24

of her son was heavily autistic. Hearing

42:27

a car one day drive past and he was outside

42:29

in the road, and she thought for one

42:31

moment he'd be run over, and then there was a part of that went, life

42:34

would be much easier. And then the thought went, but

42:36

I don't think, had I been a mother,

42:39

it might've been as easy for her to

42:41

talk to me about having those momentary dark

42:43

thoughts. That

42:45

was an incredible piece that you published on your

42:47

sub stack. I think her name was

42:49

Jill, and she said, to be

42:52

honest, my son has ruined my

42:54

life, but he

42:56

has also enriched it in ways beyond measure.

42:59

And I loved the level of honesty

43:01

that she could have, that idea of,

43:04

you know, women feeling that they could confess

43:06

to you about regretting motherhood, which

43:08

is another data point,

43:10

I guess, that it's not always happily ever after.

43:12

It's not always a wonderful thing. There are a

43:15

lot of women with children

43:17

who would be looking at your life

43:19

and feeling incredibly envious of the choice

43:21

that you made and wishing either

43:23

that they'd made the same choice or that they'd had

43:25

the opportunity to make the same choice as you. And

43:27

that's taboo in our society to say that, right?

43:30

Totally, because of course, not being a mother is

43:32

not a possibility for a lot of women. I

43:35

mean, when I put a call out, I was

43:37

very lucky to find Jill, who I think had

43:39

done so much work on herself. She

43:42

spoke with such absolute clarity about

43:44

that, that he'd ruined her life, but

43:46

also he changed it and enriched it in a way she could

43:48

never. And that of course is the dichotomy, isn't it? And that's

43:51

why, when I put a call out

43:53

saying, is there anybody who will speak to me about regretting

43:55

motherhood? Every single person started

43:57

by going, I love my children,

43:59

but. Two things

44:01

can be true. I love you. You're ruining my life.

44:03

That's absolutely right. But I remember I had one woman

44:05

and I never got in touch with her. We sort

44:07

of never were able to cross paths, but she just

44:09

said, I feel trapped in my life

44:12

and that was it. I think sometimes people just

44:14

need the space to be able to say that

44:16

and then, you know, to let out these

44:18

thoughts and then retract. But I

44:21

think the interesting thing for me is,

44:23

and actually this is thanks to mothers,

44:26

is that because mothers like Jill and

44:28

actually so many since, you know, I'm

44:30

very lucky I'm 45, so I've had

44:32

sort of 20 years of this conversation

44:35

around motherhood not being easy. I

44:38

don't think that was probably available to save my

44:40

mother's generation. But with mothers talking

44:42

about that actually it can be hard,

44:45

that helps other women make the decision about

44:47

the realities of what motherhood looks like. And

44:50

I think Jill spoke about this. You

44:52

know, Jill was a little bit older than me. I

44:54

think she was in a mid 50s. She had an

44:56

idea that had been sold to her about what motherhood

44:58

was. It was prams and it was, you know, getting

45:00

together with other mothers. And it was like,

45:02

yeah, but there's got to be a whole other narrative, but it's

45:04

that nobody was telling it. So I think

45:07

that's where I feel very strongly about that.

45:09

And that's down to brave mothers who are

45:11

willing, who know that talking about

45:13

the dark side of motherhood does not in any way

45:15

negate how they feel about their child. So,

45:18

you know, really important, I think. And

45:22

just finally on your list, you will get

45:24

obsessed with your dog. It's

45:26

a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason,

45:28

right? Tell me about your dogs. It's a cliche.

45:31

I mean, of course, the devastating thing is, is

45:33

that they've gone too soon. It's

45:35

another kind of empty nest. It's like empty dog

45:38

bed. It's one of these constant empty dog beds

45:40

we've had through our lives. So, I mean,

45:42

I do remember, but I don't know if she was half joking,

45:44

a friend said to me, you know, Farrah, if I'd have got

45:46

the dog, she's got a dog now. If I'd have got the

45:49

dog before I had the kids, I may not

45:51

have had the kids. Funnily

45:54

enough, when your kids become older,

45:57

that's when the dog has its time to shine

45:59

again. end or you need a new

46:01

dog because as someone once wrote, if

46:04

you have teenagers and you want someone to be

46:06

happy to see you when you walk in the

46:08

door, get a dog. Yeah, that's totally right. The

46:11

dogs don't feel they're different.

46:13

People go, oh, did they get dogs because they

46:15

didn't have children? It's like, no, it's a different

46:18

whole. Yeah.

46:20

It's what you say in the list

46:22

about you get to lean into other

46:24

relationships in your life, whether it's

46:26

with your dogs, whether it's with friends, whether

46:28

it's with your parents, there's

46:30

a space that perhaps people

46:32

with children don't have. Yeah, I think that's right. And

46:35

I think that's the thing you're constantly

46:37

looking as you should

46:39

be in life to fill the spaces. It's like, what's

46:41

going to fill the space? Because I think that's what

46:43

when those people would say to me, life is long,

46:45

what are you going to do with it? As

46:48

long as you're filling the spaces, then

46:50

life is going to be good. And I think

46:52

that's the point. I think it's those who maybe

46:54

decide not to have children and then there's nothing,

46:56

because I do think you need to think about

46:58

even whether you're a mother or not a mother,

47:00

what's going to fill the space of life? And

47:02

I think that's just an important question. You need

47:04

to ask yourself regardless of whether you're a mother

47:06

or not. And I've definitely spent the last

47:09

five years thinking very keenly

47:11

about that, which I

47:13

think everybody should anyway, I think I've just come to

47:15

it a lot earlier. And I suspect maybe mothers, once

47:18

the teenagers have left the house, they start thinking

47:20

about it too. Thank you so

47:22

much. That was just glorious. Thank you

47:24

so much for having me, Amir. I love

47:27

that conversation. And I think what I liked about

47:29

it most is that, I don't

47:31

know, on the surface, it's about the question of whether

47:33

or not to have kids and about Farah's

47:35

personal journey with that decision. But

47:37

really, this conversation is about a

47:39

woman making the very

47:42

deliberate decision to get to

47:44

know herself and her identity

47:46

as well as she possibly can and have

47:49

that identity exist separately

47:52

from what society expects of us.

47:54

And perhaps what we internalise about what it

47:56

means to be a woman, what

47:59

we expect of ourselves because

48:01

of that. And I really love that

48:03

because as women, we give a lot of ourselves to

48:05

other people, and that's true for women

48:07

who have kids and for women who don't. And

48:10

so often in history and

48:12

still today, we define ourselves by who

48:14

we are to other people, like we're

48:16

a wife, we're a mother, we're a daughter, we're

48:18

a friend, we're a sister. And

48:21

I think Farah is so many of

48:23

those things, but she's offering us all

48:25

this kind of imitation to

48:27

think about our identity

48:29

apart from what society expects

48:31

of us and apart from what we're

48:34

told we should be as

48:36

women. And all of that really

48:38

begins with honesty and vulnerability, which is how Farah

48:41

chose to approach her life. And

48:43

she's such a good writer. People tell her things like

48:45

really personal things. And if you want to read more

48:48

of her work, I'm popping a link to her sub

48:50

stack in the show notes. And what

48:52

I hope you take away and what I've taken

48:54

away is that for

48:56

every woman who doesn't have

48:58

children, there is a very distinct

49:01

story and it's often a very personal

49:03

story and it's often a

49:05

very complex story and a layered story. And it's

49:07

not necessarily yours to know.

49:10

And here's me saying that as the nosiest

49:12

person you'll ever meet. Don't ever assume, and

49:14

I'm talking to myself here, that

49:17

someone owes you an explanation

49:20

for the choice that they've made in their life, whether

49:22

it's having kids, I mean, no one asks anyone, oh,

49:24

why did you choose to have kids? It's just seen

49:26

as the default. And maybe we

49:28

need to just start thinking a little bit

49:30

more now before we ask

49:33

that question to women who

49:35

have lives that look different to our

49:37

own. This episode was produced by Naima

49:39

Brown with sound production by Leah Porges.

49:41

I'm Mia Friedman. Thanks for listening to my

49:43

croaky voice. I'm going to go and rest

49:46

it and speak to you soon.