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0:00
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production
0:03
of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild
0:05
from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion
0:07
advised.
0:12
It was in spring of eighteen o
0:14
two that Ludwig van Beethoven
0:16
realized he was beginning to go deaf.
0:20
In an effort to pull himself out of
0:22
a depression, he left Vienna
0:24
for a small village five miles
0:26
to the north to spend time
0:29
in nature and see if he could find
0:31
any musical inspiration. It
0:33
was on a walk through the countryside
0:36
that a melody popped into his head, a
0:38
theme in E flat major. Eventually,
0:42
over a year, that theme transformed
0:45
into a full symphony, Beethoven's
0:48
third titled Roika or
0:50
Heroic. People far
0:53
more knowledgeable about classical music
0:55
than I am celebrate the symphony
0:57
as groundbreaking, challenging, and
1:00
brilliant, a landmark
1:02
of Beethoven's career that I've seen
1:04
described as the first Romantic
1:07
symphony, marking the end of
1:09
the classical period. But
1:11
it wasn't originally titled
1:14
Eroika. It had an earlier
1:16
name, which Beethoven wrote himself
1:19
on the symphony's title page. As
1:22
soon as the work was completed in early
1:24
eighteen oh four, Symphonia
1:27
in Titulata Bonaparte Symphony
1:31
titled Bonaparte.
1:33
Though Beethoven was German living
1:36
in Austria, there was plenty
1:38
about Napoleon he found
1:40
inspiring. Napoleon
1:43
was only a year older than Beethoven,
1:45
and they had both come from families
1:47
outside the nobility, and they had
1:49
both risen in the ranks because of
1:52
their ability. As a young
1:54
man, Beethoven was inspired
1:56
by the promise of the French Revolution.
1:59
He read philosophy and celebrated
2:02
the possibility of a truly enlightened
2:05
state, But like so
2:07
many others in Europe, he became
2:09
disillusioned as he watched on and
2:12
saw the bloody excesses
2:14
of where the revolution ended
2:17
up. To Beethoven, Napoleon
2:20
was a striking and romantic
2:22
figure who had returned to France
2:24
from his military victories abroad and
2:27
was able to save the revolution
2:29
from itself. From
2:32
seventeen ninety five on, France
2:34
was governed by a system known as
2:36
the Directory, where there were five
2:39
directors and two legislative
2:41
bodies, but the government was
2:44
chaotic and inefficient. With
2:46
the exception of Napoleon's victories
2:48
abroad, France had suffered a
2:51
string of humiliating defeats,
2:53
trade routes were cut off, land was
2:56
sacrificed, and inflation was
2:58
beginning to escape the back of control.
3:02
In seventeen ninety nine, there was
3:04
a coup ostensibly organized
3:07
by one of the Directors, a
3:09
man popularly known as the
3:11
abbey cs. Cs
3:13
knew that the delicate Directory
3:16
was unstable, threatened
3:18
by Royalists on the right and Jacobean
3:21
on the left, and a new
3:23
government would need to be established
3:26
if the promises of the French Revolution
3:28
were to be preserved in any form.
3:31
And what better man was there to
3:34
join him in that coup than
3:36
the popular hero Napoleon
3:38
Bonaparte, the brilliant young
3:41
general who was met in the streets
3:43
with cheers when he returned
3:45
from Egypt. But
3:48
Napoleon orchestrated something
3:50
of a coup within a
3:52
coup. After manipulating
3:55
the legislative bodies of the Directory
3:57
to leave Paris, Napoleon
3:59
brought in armed grenadiers
4:02
to ensure that in the new government,
4:04
where there were supposed to be three consuls,
4:08
he Napoleon, would be the first
4:10
and most important consul.
4:13
It was only called a coup or
4:16
coup within a coup in hindsight,
4:19
At the time, many including
4:22
Beethoven, viewed Napoleon
4:24
as a heroic figure, saving
4:27
the French government from itself in
4:29
order to uphold republican ideologies.
4:33
Napoleon as consul was a
4:35
Romantic figure out of classical
4:37
antiquity, like a sage
4:40
Roman consul of old.
4:43
But then Beethoven got some bad
4:45
news. In December
4:48
eighteen o four, five years
4:50
after Napoleon became first consul
4:53
and less than a year after Beethoven
4:55
named his new symphony after him, Napoleon
4:59
declared himsel self emperor.
5:02
According to the most popular
5:04
version of the story, Beethoven
5:06
became enraged and shouted
5:08
quote, so he is no more than
5:11
a common mortal. Now he too
5:13
will tread underfoot all the rights
5:15
of men and indulge only his
5:17
ambition. Now he will think
5:19
himself superior to all men
5:22
and become a tyrant. Beethoven
5:25
scratched over the word symphony
5:27
titled Bonaparte with so much
5:29
force that his pen ripped
5:32
through the paper. The symphony
5:34
was renamed simply and vaguely
5:37
heroic Eroika. Napoleon
5:41
remains one of the most popular
5:43
and famous historical figures in
5:45
European history. Recently,
5:48
he was the center of Ridley Scott's
5:50
twenty twenty three film starring
5:52
Joaquin Phoenix. The
5:54
French public had a fairly
5:56
negative reaction to the film, which
5:59
might have had something to do with how strange
6:02
it must be for French speakers
6:04
to see Napoleon such
6:06
an iconic French figure speaking
6:09
English with a full American
6:11
accent. But the French
6:14
public's perspective on the real
6:16
historical Napoleon is
6:19
a little more complicated. Was
6:21
Napoleon the hero that France
6:24
needed at the time, a man
6:26
who preserved the ideals of the
6:28
revolution, encoding them into
6:30
the Napoleonic Code and giving
6:33
the nation the order it's so desperately
6:35
needed. Or was Napoleon
6:38
a military dictator who
6:40
dismissed a constitution he swore
6:42
to uphold when it suited him in
6:45
his quest for greater personal
6:48
power. I'm Danish
6:50
Swartz and this is noble
6:52
blood.
6:56
In order to explore Napoleon's
6:58
modern day reputae, especially
7:01
the way he's understood today in
7:03
France, I'm thrilled to
7:05
be talking about the Coup of eighteen
7:07
Brumaire, Napoleon's first major
7:09
jump to power. With Pascal
7:11
Confrovo of the French Embassy in Washington,
7:14
d C. I am so thrilled
7:17
to be here today talking to Pascal Confrovo,
7:19
who is the press counselor for the French
7:21
Embassy in Washington, d C. To talk
7:24
about Napoleon with me today.
7:26
Pascal, thank you so much for joining me.
7:28
Thank you for having me.
7:30
Napoleon obviously has such a
7:32
long and fascinating life. I
7:35
mean, I could do this entire podcast just
7:37
about episodes from his life,
7:39
but we're going to focus a little bit on the
7:41
coup. In English, we would say
7:44
November ninth, but it's called the Coup
7:46
of eighteen brumaire in French exactly.
7:49
And thank you for for inviting
7:51
us. What's what
7:53
caught our eyes and why we were
7:55
happy to talk with you that We're
7:58
always happy when Americans
8:00
like you and your audience are interested in
8:03
French history and French figures.
8:05
And we see that there is a big
8:08
curiosity on Napoleon
8:11
and more broadly on the French Revolution. Uh
8:13
and uh. And the film of Scott
8:16
of course, and that is that very well.
8:18
Yes, I mean, Napoleon is just one
8:20
of the most fascinating figures in
8:22
history. I thought the movie was
8:25
fun, but obviously they took some historical
8:27
liberties.
8:28
Did you see it?
8:29
I saw it. I watched it here of course before
8:32
before talking to you, And yeah, the
8:34
least I can say that it created
8:37
some debate in France and
8:40
also I guess in the US.
8:41
Yeah, I've heard that French people had had
8:44
very strong opinions on it.
8:46
A lot of persons were saying it it was less about
8:48
nepleonself, that about Napleon
8:51
and Jovishan, that it was about the love affair,
8:54
and that made somewhere advising
8:57
to to have a title that would be
8:59
Nepoleon josephin That makes
9:01
a lot of sense.
9:02
I also thought it was it's always a fun
9:05
decision on a movie's part to give
9:07
a character. Obviously
9:10
they're speaking English in the film, but Joaquin
9:12
Phoenix just speaks English with
9:14
no accent, and I think for some that was
9:16
a little disconcerting.
9:18
Yeah, and it's always for a French
9:21
speaking audience, it's always interesting to see
9:23
Napoleon speaks English. Indeed.
9:25
Yeah, well, let's let's fast
9:28
forward a little bit to the coup that
9:31
initially brought Napoleon to power, obviously
9:33
before he became an emperor. After
9:36
the French Revolution, Napoleon was a general
9:39
and served served
9:41
the Constitution after
9:43
the French Revolution, the Directory
9:46
and won massive victories
9:48
over in Egypt and returned
9:50
to Paris a hero. Can you speak
9:52
a little bit about what the
9:55
Directory was like and what France
9:57
was like when Napoleon returned from Egypt.
10:00
Yes, we was tver, and there was also
10:02
a lot of humility. Because I'm not speaking as a
10:04
historian here, but more as a civil
10:07
servants, and so I may
10:09
not have all the little details.
10:13
The date of eighteenth of Brumeer and
10:15
nineteenth brumer actually
10:17
because they could takes place on two days, is
10:19
often taught at the
10:22
end of the revolution in the French history, and
10:25
Napoleon at that time was one of the
10:28
youngest generals ever. He
10:31
was serving the Republic and was serving
10:34
among them also a man called Bajas,
10:37
and he was
10:39
coming back from Egypt.
10:43
It was the last military
10:45
operation he did, which was an
10:47
operation less military than also
10:49
a discovery. He had worked with him a lot of scientists
10:52
going to the pyramids. He
10:54
had discovered the Pierre deo Rosette, which
10:56
was the one afterwards that
10:58
allowed everyone to understand what
11:01
the hieroglyphs were meaning,
11:03
and so.
11:03
He published the Rosetta Stone.
11:06
Thank You, and
11:09
so he was coming with a great aura.
11:11
And this see also in the film
11:14
that he was winning. He
11:16
won some battle against
11:18
the englishing tool in seventeen ninety
11:20
three, which also brought
11:22
him a lot of a lot of fame.
11:24
And in seventeen ninety eight seventeen
11:27
ninety nine, you had a kind
11:29
of fatigue in in France, a
11:32
fatigue of the worlds, because the revolution were
11:34
also making was also a synonym
11:37
of wars in France, a
11:39
fatigue for
11:41
the economy also, and
11:44
I think he could feel that
11:46
that people were willing to
11:48
see, as we say, peace
11:50
outside and order inside.
11:53
And that's what he ran
11:55
on in a way in
11:58
seventeen ninety nine when he was coming back
12:00
from Egypt.
12:01
One thing that I think is so interesting is
12:04
Napoleon. You can obviously frame his actions
12:06
in so many different ways. One could
12:08
frame what he did in overthrowing
12:11
the Republic and the government of the Directory
12:14
as him trying to save the revolution.
12:16
This government was so unpopular, the
12:19
economic state in France
12:21
was unsustainable. You could say that by
12:24
claiming power he was saving
12:27
the government, saving the revolution, or
12:30
you could present this idea that he was
12:32
simply something of a military
12:34
dictator. What do you think is more
12:36
of the popular conception of
12:38
Napoleon in France as it's
12:40
sort of taught today.
12:42
See exactly what you say. He
12:44
was a master of communication also in
12:47
that day, and he was also the
12:49
one who wrote his own story history
12:51
before the historians to them, and
12:54
so he was very good at managing
12:56
the image he wanted the people to have
12:58
of him. And he has
13:01
the two party you're saying,
13:03
he's at the same time, and
13:05
the coup is embodying that, and the Empire
13:07
afterwards is embedding that that there
13:10
are some lessons taken from the
13:12
revolutions that will survive, the
13:14
human rights, the equality, the
13:17
end of the privileges Frost
13:19
the church had or the
13:22
nobility had, and
13:25
so this will survive. And so
13:27
he is in that aspect, he is
13:29
the heir of the revolution. He is
13:31
the one that will put
13:33
these results of the revolution in the long
13:35
term French political life.
13:37
And at the same time, yeah, he he
13:40
creates a regime that has nothing to
13:43
do with the republican That was very
13:45
that at the beginning, the Consulate has
13:49
the appearance of republican
13:51
then, which will in eighteen oh four become
13:54
after after publicits will
13:56
become an empire.
13:58
Absolutely.
13:59
One also interesting thing I feel
14:01
like as an American, I do feel like I have to
14:04
voice our little cameo that unfortunately,
14:06
part of the problem of the runaway inflation
14:09
in France and the
14:11
challenges that the French Republic
14:14
was facing economically was due to the
14:16
fact that after the American Revolution, the
14:18
American government decided not to
14:21
repay some of the loans the way they
14:23
were previously contracted, because
14:25
that contract had been with the French
14:27
king who was obviously no longer
14:29
in charge of the government.
14:31
So we had a little cameo there.
14:34
There are debates on that I want indulged in
14:36
it. Which is true is
14:38
that the two revolutions are very linked, very much
14:40
linked, and in spite of our histories
14:43
earlier seventeen seventy six, but with many French
14:45
persons taking also
14:49
a part it of course Lafayette
14:52
or Chambou, but also the ideas are
14:54
coming to France as well in
14:57
seventeen ninety nine a few years
14:59
letter is our revolution that
15:02
started with many things among
15:04
them was also public finances.
15:08
And so yes, there is definitely a link between
15:11
the two revolutions, and that also while
15:13
our two countries are so close in a way,
15:16
and say, all just alliars, but yes, indeed,
15:18
at that time your first ambassador
15:21
to Paris is better man Franklin, and he makes
15:23
he makes a crowd in Paris. Everyone
15:25
loves him. He's very good public diplomacy
15:27
at that time. Lafayette
15:30
is a style in the US.
15:33
I would I could even say that I think he's even
15:35
more stylen in the US that he's in France. But
15:38
he's more well known here than than
15:40
in France.
15:41
One more I find so fascinating whenever
15:44
American figures pop up in French history.
15:47
Talleyrand, who obviously is a is
15:49
a massively important figure in French
15:51
history, a man who survived regime
15:54
change after regime change, who initially
15:56
you know, helped Napoleon and his rise to
15:58
power.
16:00
Actoring the Republic.
16:01
Tallyrand actually had to resign as
16:03
Foreign Minister because he was one
16:06
could say, you know, politely requesting
16:09
or demanding a bribe of two
16:11
hundred and fifty thousand dollars from
16:13
three American envoys, and American
16:16
audiences might know one of the envoys
16:18
happened to be the future massive
16:20
Supreme Court Justice John Marshall
16:22
and I just love realizing that
16:24
two totally disparate historical
16:26
figures that you would learn about in two different
16:29
contexts actually interacted
16:31
in that way.
16:33
Yeah, and they learned
16:36
lessons from each other. They interacted,
16:39
Tanya, you work quitting Wimmy. It's
16:41
another so another French
16:43
figure less known than Napoleon, and
16:45
he plays in a way kind of continuity
16:48
in French diplomacy among different
16:50
regimes, starting from the Republic, so the Consulate
16:52
of the Empire, and then he plays also a role
16:54
in the restoration of the King.
16:57
I'm fascinated by Tallyrand. I remember
16:59
reading that there was sort of a
17:01
parody book or pamphlet that
17:04
came out ranking the
17:06
weather veins of French politics,
17:08
as in men who sort of changed their
17:11
alliances, and itally Rand was
17:13
top of the list.
17:14
Yeah. Yeah,
17:16
And he has also a mixed image, I guess
17:19
legacy for that.
17:21
I do always respect someone who is able
17:23
to survive in politics
17:25
the way he did, and he was going
17:28
back to the coup. He was a major
17:30
figure and ally of Napoleon.
17:33
Just to set the scene, the governmental
17:35
system was called the Directory.
17:37
There were two.
17:38
Government bodies, the Council of Ancients
17:40
and the five hundred, which was sort of the
17:43
upper and lower legislative bodies.
17:46
Napoleon I think recognized
17:48
among with other politicians at
17:50
the time that this government
17:53
was not sustainable for the reasons
17:55
we talked about. And Napoleon was such a popular
17:57
figure that if he was
18:00
sort of the spearhead of the coup, it
18:02
would be it would be successful. And so
18:04
he allied with a man known as Abb
18:06
s S. And again, if i'm if,
18:09
I'm I'm almost humiliated to be
18:11
attempting to do French pronunciation in
18:13
front of you. But what I love is that Napoleon,
18:16
even as these men were sort of building a
18:18
coup around Napoleon's popularity,
18:21
Napoleon was sort of planning a coup
18:24
within the coup to establish himself
18:26
as the primary power.
18:30
Exactly. And you see that also in the film I'll say
18:32
Ces and the Coup. He needed
18:35
what we say sword, He needed a saber to
18:37
operate, to operationalize what he was
18:40
thinking. And so Bonaparte said yes,
18:42
and they on the eighteenth of Brumeer,
18:45
everything happened
18:47
as as planned. Basically, they were resigning
18:50
the directors, so the executive branch
18:53
was collectively resigning for the one
18:55
who were among the coup, and for the one who were
18:57
not aware of the coup. They were but forced
18:59
to or under.
19:00
Custody little either bribes or
19:03
force.
19:05
Exactly like pressure, and
19:08
Napoleon was created.
19:11
The one who was in charge of the army protecting
19:14
Paris, and the council
19:16
of the five hundreds that you were mentioning earlier
19:19
was sent to Sanclue, which is a
19:21
city next to not far from
19:23
Paris, which was a bit further from Paris
19:25
to be more into a
19:28
neighborhood. So eighteenth of Rema works quite
19:30
well for the plan. It's more nineteenth
19:32
of Remare, which is a bit trickier, but maybe
19:35
you want to tell it's now.
19:36
Yeah, So step one goes according to plan.
19:38
They're able to pressure this council to
19:41
sort of get outside the city, come
19:43
to the suburbs as it were. I think
19:45
probably for a few reasons, you know,
19:48
to get away from the military support
19:50
that might undermine this coup. And
19:52
I believe if I'm correct, they were sort of able
19:54
to convince the council to
19:56
come out to the suburbs by saying
19:59
that there was a jack of in coup that was happening.
20:01
Because the Jacobin, the more extremest
20:04
revolutionary branch, had been ousted
20:06
from government a few months earlier, they
20:09
were able to sort of get
20:11
the legislative body out to the suburbs.
20:14
And then when the.
20:16
Legislative body realized
20:18
that Napoleon walked into
20:20
their chambers with a force
20:23
of military grenadiers, I
20:25
think they all sort of collectively realized,
20:27
oh, we weren't brought out here for our protection.
20:29
Something really extreme
20:31
is happening, and.
20:32
They welcome in. Welcome is
20:34
not a good word, but they are very violent,
20:37
a team of crazy. They expel him from
20:39
the from the from the room. They say
20:41
they treat him, they say that he's a dictator.
20:44
It seems that for a moment Bonaparte
20:47
is is UH losing
20:50
faith in him, in him, in
20:52
his good star. And then
20:54
there's a truck of of
20:56
of history where actually his brother
20:59
Lucien is a head of the Council
21:01
of the five hundred and UH,
21:03
and he's the one who who
21:05
has this stamina to
21:08
delay the vote that was going
21:10
by the five hundred that was going to outlaw
21:14
UH, to outlaw Bonaparte.
21:17
A bit like the same kind of votes that was
21:19
going that had outlawed Robes a
21:22
bit a few years earlier, and when
21:25
at that time, when you were outlawed, it was also meaning
21:27
a bit death at the same time. And
21:30
and he delayed, he delayed the vote,
21:33
and uh, and go take the guards
21:35
the to to
21:37
to come back in the in
21:39
the in the room and expel.
21:42
Actually the h a big
21:44
part of the of this, this five
21:47
hundred. And then they declare with
21:50
the one who stay and who are supported,
21:52
They declared the end of the directory,
21:54
and they give the executive power to three
21:57
consoles. Uh did
22:00
you crew end? But apart so the first
22:02
part of zuku. Yeah.
22:03
And just to interrupt and backtrack
22:06
a little bit, that vote when
22:08
the Council of five hundred were faced with Napoleon
22:10
coming in with soldiers and recognized
22:13
that he was attempting to overthrow the constitution
22:16
and they were about to declare him an outlaw. I'm
22:18
so glad you brought up what happened
22:21
to Robespiear because I find it so fascinating
22:23
the contrast and how the two men responded.
22:26
Robespear attempted suicide.
22:29
I think actually the.
22:29
Film depicted this quite accurately. Took
22:32
a pistol attempted suicide and
22:35
failed and just just blew off his
22:37
jaw, which was a very grisly scene.
22:39
But Napoleon, with the aid of his brother,
22:42
was able to slip out, avoid the vote
22:44
and then actually use the
22:48
anger of the legislative
22:50
body to rally his troops. I
22:52
think Napoleon's the
22:54
loyalty that he inspired in his troops
22:57
was such a major drive in his
22:59
ability to to breach power, because as
23:01
he came.
23:02
Out slightly worse
23:05
for wear, literally.
23:06
I think the another thing the
23:08
movie accurately portrayed was that the council
23:11
kind of tried to physically attack him, and
23:13
he was able to use how sort
23:15
of bloodied and ripped up he was, with
23:17
his brother Lucian pointing at him and saying, look
23:19
what they tried to do to him, rally
23:22
the troops to come
23:24
back in within a show of force.
23:27
And Lucien at at that time it's
23:29
saying that zie one who are attacking Buonaparte
23:31
aren't the real traitors and that they
23:33
are working for England,
23:35
which is of course the worst you
23:39
can say at that time.
23:40
Oh even imagine, of course, well
23:42
who else would want to betray
23:44
the military hero Napoleon.
23:46
Exactly, and you see all these scenes
23:49
in the film.
23:50
One thing that I think is so interesting is obviously
23:52
the idea of the coup was that there would be
23:55
three consoles, as you mentioned,
23:57
but Napoleon fairly quickly
24:00
manipulated the constitution so that he,
24:03
as first counsel, would have much
24:05
more power than the other two.
24:07
Exactly. That's what you you call I think the cup
24:10
within the cup, right, And yeah,
24:13
the three conculs are not on the
24:15
same are not at the same level, and
24:17
he will very swiftly
24:19
consolidate his power, his grips with
24:21
the adoption of a
24:24
new constitution, the consition
24:26
of the year eight we
24:29
are in the revolutionary still calendar
24:31
at that time, and which gives
24:33
him the authority to
24:36
have the first draft of the law.
24:39
And also he gives him also the visibility.
24:41
I think in all this there is
24:43
also a communication part which is always
24:45
very important at that time,
24:48
and he will have the
24:50
leader on the image
24:52
and then the comes very quickly and so yes,
24:54
and are much
24:57
less well known, and
24:59
I think he he differently worked for that.
25:02
Yes, one scene that stuck
25:04
with me from the movie that of course was pulled directly
25:06
from history because there are so many
25:08
scenes where you're like, well, this is so cinematic,
25:11
surely they just invented this. But
25:13
when Napoleon sort of stumbled out
25:16
of the Council of five hundred, when they sort of attacked
25:18
him and Lucian was trying to rally the
25:20
troops, Lucian grabbed a sword
25:22
and said, I will kill Napoleon
25:24
myself if he's a trader, And
25:27
that, of course inspired a
25:29
lot of trust, and that to
25:31
me also speaks to I think
25:34
from the outside. So please correct
25:36
me if I'm mistaken about the French perspective,
25:39
But I think Napoleon really was
25:41
able to repair a sense of national
25:44
pride and nationalism. After
25:46
the Revolution, France had lost
25:48
a lot of territories. Military
25:51
defeats sort of stripped them of the territories
25:53
that they had won at the end of the
25:55
eighteenth century, like seventeen ninety
25:57
six and seven, they were cut off from
26:00
German and Italian markets. The so called
26:02
you know, Second Coalition was sort of turning
26:05
on France and Napoleon just as
26:08
a figure because he had
26:10
come from these amazing military victories,
26:12
because he was speaking so eloquently
26:15
about the power of France and invoking
26:17
these political symbols meant
26:19
to evoke you know, ancient Rome.
26:22
I think they're I mean, reading
26:24
from the outside, it seems very
26:27
inspiring at a moment that there was a
26:29
great need for national pride.
26:32
Yes among
26:34
the results of the Napoleon movement and
26:36
actually of the revolution moment just before.
26:39
He is a creation of a nation, of
26:41
a modern nation, a nation which is
26:43
not only embodied by a king, by
26:46
a monarchy, but a nation because it's a regroupment
26:49
of people that recognize
26:52
themselves as member of a one entity.
26:55
And so it's exactly at this moment, and
26:57
he's fostering them these
27:00
feeling of these nationals or
27:02
patriotic feelings, and so
27:04
he does it actually in France,
27:07
but also in the just before
27:09
with his first successors, and just also
27:12
afterwards, actually in first eighteen
27:14
andreds. He is fostering
27:16
the German national
27:20
sentiment or the Italian national
27:23
sentiments. At that time, both Germany
27:25
and Italy were not one state,
27:27
so they were federally, they
27:29
were kingdoms, sometimes
27:31
depending together, sometimes
27:34
completely standing alone, and he's
27:36
fostering that also at the same
27:38
time to kill, for instance, the former Holy
27:42
Empire German
27:45
Empire, which was existing for since
27:48
Shannon mine for a
27:50
very long time, for more than one thousand years,
27:53
and the same time in Italy where
27:55
they were like small kingdoms, and he is
27:58
the instrument that is ring, among
28:00
other things, the feeling of an
28:03
Italian identity
28:05
and nationality.
28:07
Absolutely, I think that's so interesting.
28:09
America is such a young country,
28:11
obviously compared to Europe, but then
28:14
you see that actually Germany
28:17
as we know it today and United
28:19
Italy are more recent than
28:21
I think people realize. Italy wasn't unified
28:23
until what was it, eighteen seventy.
28:26
I think that's so fascinating to point
28:28
out that Napoleon was a force behind
28:31
some of that unifying sentiment.
28:33
Can I ask? I think that.
28:35
Even though obviously America
28:37
and France were such great allies
28:39
during the American Revolution, I
28:42
think that over the centuries,
28:44
America has sort of aligned itself with England
28:47
and historically at least has sort
28:49
of an Anglophilic perspective on history.
28:52
And so I think when most people learn about
28:54
Napoleon, it's through an English
28:56
lens. They only, you
28:59
know, people who are aren't aren't history bops,
29:01
people who just know the broad headlines.
29:04
I think that Napoleon was short,
29:06
which you know, he was average height. That was sort
29:08
of British propaganda, and they
29:10
sort of see him as the the
29:13
strong man of Europe, this dictator sort
29:15
of the way that I think he's he's more
29:17
understood in in England and Great Britain.
29:20
Can you sort of speak to how Napoleon
29:23
is viewed today in France?
29:25
I would say you to come back on your first
29:27
part of your of your question that yes,
29:31
there is, there is, of course, uh maybe
29:33
a British lecture of what you
29:35
what you see of Napoleon. But I
29:37
would also say that you and we
29:40
see it that you have a French lecture of
29:42
of of all service history. When we see
29:45
how popular the motto oldest
29:47
allies is. How you see when Nafayette
29:49
is is celebrated here,
29:53
when you see maybe the importance
29:55
of ruschabu uh celebrated
29:58
on the on the on the East coast. I
30:00
mean, I maybe it's not generally,
30:03
but we at the West coast, at the East
30:05
coast, sorry, and in Washington, we feel,
30:07
we feel it. We we see
30:10
this this stronger
30:13
proximity. And actually I don't
30:15
know if Lafayette and Napoleon were very
30:17
closed. I guess they met a few times,
30:19
but they were not really not really
30:22
closer both of them. Both of them were
30:24
very young. When Lafaette came he was I
30:26
think twenty three or twenty four in
30:30
in particuping in Yorktown, And when
30:33
Napoleon became general, he was also twenty four,
30:35
so that you're really, really, really young.
30:37
I think one of the brothers
30:40
of Napoleon settled afterwards
30:42
in New Jersey, or so Joseph,
30:45
yeah, went to New Jersey, I guess, but Naplone
30:48
himself never went to the US, And
30:50
I guess Lafayette was seeing the US more as a
30:53
as a land of opportunity, whereas a
30:55
Nepalon was maybe seeing it more as a land
30:58
of conquest, a
31:00
conquest. But I say because
31:02
he was. He sold the Louisiana in eighteen
31:05
oh three. You remember that, of course, in a in
31:07
a.
31:07
Very generous deal to us. I
31:09
will say.
31:11
Gigantic, which
31:14
was on the left bank of Mississippi, I frond the
31:16
west bank of Mississippi. So
31:19
just to just to remind in the way, there
31:21
is a kind of American
31:24
history of Napoleon that
31:26
you could say, an American angle of Naphleon
31:29
history that actually
31:31
as a that I can hear when
31:34
I'm when I'm here, and then now I'm
31:36
I do.
31:37
I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I do.
31:38
I actually, I think that's a very important point,
31:40
just to reiterate that it was Napoleon who
31:42
sold Thomas Jefferson
31:45
the massive I mean,
31:47
the Louisiana purchase was a massive
31:49
swath of what makes up the United States.
31:51
So I think the double the size of the US
31:53
by then.
31:55
Absolutely, if I if you, if
31:58
any listeners who don't actually remember
32:00
the actual map, just google the Napoleon
32:03
the Louisiana purchase and you will see
32:06
how vast that amount of land
32:08
is.
32:08
That then, of course was explored by Lewis
32:11
and Clark.
32:12
But it's, uh, it's fascinating
32:15
that Napoleon just sort of obviously
32:17
he was distracted by affairs happening in Europe,
32:19
and I think saw America
32:21
as a bit of a an albatross at
32:23
that moment, like a little bit of a distraction, but
32:26
gave us a great deal.
32:28
And then on the second part of your question, where you're saying,
32:30
Okay, what's the image we have, it's
32:33
in an image which is a complex.
32:35
I'd say you have an angle, which
32:38
is artistry. We
32:40
find, for instance, you
32:42
have this famous painting of David,
32:44
which is the crowning of the of
32:46
Napoleon and Jeordiphoax.
32:48
Napoleon crowning himself, and
32:54
so this is.
32:55
A painting that
32:57
everyone knows that. For instance, it
32:59
was as the case a few decades ago. It's
33:01
less the case now. You had some
33:05
persons really learning all the battles.
33:07
You know, it was a kind of part of the
33:09
how history was taught or learned. So
33:12
it was going from I don't know, Hotlits to Marango
33:14
to also the defeat
33:18
the Mosque Va, the Russian
33:20
campaign or traffic down.
33:22
But you had this I think it's
33:24
a bit less now the
33:26
case that we learned of him, we
33:29
learn of him also about the results.
33:33
So all this kind of what we could master Grant.
33:35
I don't know how to translate that really granite mass.
33:38
It's the kind of big institution
33:40
that he created and that survived
33:43
afterwards. You know, in the nineteenth century, I think
33:45
we in France we tried every kind
33:47
of regime possible, from an empire to republic,
33:50
to kingdom to everything, and
33:52
these kind of institutions survived. You
33:55
had the civil code, for instance, that he created
33:57
and that survived and it still exists. Now you have
33:59
this creation of the Federal Reserve,
34:02
which is called band de France. But you
34:05
had the creation of the Lease, which is a
34:08
high school, which
34:10
was very different at that time. It was quite a
34:12
bit military, but we still survive. Now,
34:14
we had the creation of the institution of the prefet.
34:16
You don't have prefe here, but it would be a kind
34:19
of of governor in a state
34:21
that would be appointed by the federal
34:23
state and not elected by his constituent,
34:26
and that would represent that would represent
34:28
more the capital of the federal capital
34:31
than the So all these institutions
34:34
still still exist. And we also learn
34:37
of course by the
34:41
the part which are darker, such
34:43
as haiti or slavery.
34:46
And because it's a very important and
34:48
I think that's where we are in France to
34:51
give the closest
34:53
to reality to truce history
34:56
that we can do.
34:57
Yeah, I mean, because Napoleon is he's
35:00
a fascinating figure, I think because of
35:02
his many contradictions. Obviously, the
35:05
Napoleonic Code was so
35:07
vital to upholding, you
35:09
know, basic French rights. And even though
35:11
Napoleon initially upheld the
35:14
revolutionary ban on slavery, he did
35:16
at a certain point undo that and
35:18
and reinstitute slavery in the in
35:21
the French colonies.
35:22
Yeah, exactly. And so this is something that we
35:24
don't put under the run at all. This is something that
35:26
we uh that we learn are
35:29
among everything, and so it's always
35:31
also interesting. So you have this reality and then you
35:33
have the willyas of how
35:35
history is stalled about him, because I
35:38
was sing also at the beginning that he was among the he
35:41
was the first also to tell his own story, the
35:43
memoirs, the own numoir when
35:45
he was on
35:47
the Santa Anna island after the after
35:49
his fall, and then also
35:53
so many historians on there.
35:55
It's one of the of the subjects
35:57
in the French history which is the richest,
35:59
I mean in so many people
36:01
who went on there. And so you have some
36:04
who who like and who will
36:06
try to keep on in
36:08
the wake of the strong man who
36:12
and tried to say, oh, France at that time was strong.
36:14
And you will have the others
36:16
who will who will
36:18
go more on the
36:21
institution that we that that he built.
36:23
And so you have in
36:26
a way tell me what the
36:28
image of Nemylon, of Nepoleon you have,
36:30
and I will tell you who.
36:31
You are that's brilliant, Thank
36:33
you. I mean that, that's what a perspective I
36:35
think. Napoleon is absolutely something
36:37
of a cipher. It's something of a
36:40
In English, we would call it a Rorjack test, where
36:42
you can look at him and what you
36:46
well, Pascal, thank you so much for joining
36:48
me. This was such a fascinating conversation, and
36:50
I'm so happy to get to talk about
36:52
one of my favorite historical figures, Napoleon
36:54
with you.
36:55
Thank you, thank you so much. And at the Frenchiman,
36:57
see, we are always glad when in
37:00
the US you are interested in
37:02
French history, and in this case in the French
37:04
history which is European, his world
37:07
history also, but also something very linked
37:10
to American history at that.
37:12
Time, incredibly linked to American
37:14
history. And please come back at any time
37:16
and talk more.
37:20
Noble Blood is a production of
37:22
iHeart Radio and Grimm
37:24
and Mild from Aaron Mank. Noble
37:27
Blood is created and hosted by
37:29
me Dana Schwartz, with additional
37:32
writing and researching by Hannah
37:34
Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira
37:36
Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori
37:39
Goodman. The show is edited
37:41
and produced by Noemi Griffin
37:43
and rima Il Kahali with
37:46
supervising producer Josh Thain
37:48
and executive producers Aaron Manke,
37:51
Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick.
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