0:00

Hello, and welcome to a

0:02

special announcement episode of

0:04

Normald Gossip. I'm Kelsey Mckinney,

0:06

and Alex is here with me. Alex Aylo.

0:09

Hello, everybody. We

0:11

have missed you so much.

0:14

So much. Oh my gosh. And I

0:16

think that maybe you've missed us, I can't

0:18

tell from the Instagram

0:19

messages, but I don't know, maybe little

0:22

bit. It's a little unclear. Maybe

0:24

they do. Maybe they don't. You know? Who can know?

0:26

You may notice that this is a shorter

0:29

episode today than we usually have. It's

0:31

not a full hour. It's a little bit shorter than that. And

0:33

that is because is not an episode

0:35

to tell gossipin. It is a special

0:37

announcement episode. Though

0:40

I will say there is gonna be gossipin

0:42

it. That's so true. There's I mean, do you think

0:44

the two of us could get on mic without any gossip?

0:46

That's, like, fundamentally opposed to our

0:48

characters.

0:49

I mean, we were recording for, like, five minutes before

0:52

we started this, and all of that

0:54

will be cut and lost a

0:55

history. Well, they don't need to know that.

1:00

Alex, why are we recording this episode? We

1:02

have some special announcements. Mhmm.

1:05

Number

1:05

one, we have signed a deal with

1:07

a partner.

1:08

Whoa. We'll explain what that means and

1:11

who the partner is. And

1:13

also, we are coming back, and

1:15

we will announce our return date in this

1:17

episode. Oh my god.

1:21

It's all happening. So we have a

1:23

lot to tell you. Yeah. I mean,

1:25

I think I wanna admit that it has

1:28

been, like, very very difficult for

1:30

me to not talk about what has been going

1:32

on, mainly because I'm terrible at keeping

1:34

secrets, which everyone knows. And it's like Mhmm.

1:36

-- it is kind of

1:37

gossipy, the, like, process we've been through.

1:40

Yes. And I think it's really important

1:43

for us to share what we've

1:45

gone through as a way to

1:48

explain to listeners how

1:51

the business works behind a podcast

1:53

like this. Like most podcasts you

1:55

listen to, not all of them, but most of

1:57

them have gone through something like

1:59

this.

2:00

Yeah. And something that we have, like, tried

2:03

tried our best to be honest and open about

2:05

is that, like, we wanna be transparent about the kind of

2:07

work that goes into this, both so that,

2:09

like, you know why it takes so

2:11

long for us to put episodes together and make

2:14

seasons that are really good and also so that,

2:16

like, we can make that

2:18

kind of transparency standard across the

2:20

industry. We wanna make sure that the

2:22

people who are trying to make shows like we make

2:24

have the same kind of intel that we have.

2:26

Yeah. So let's talk about it. So

2:28

once upon it Where does this process start?

2:32

Let's let's rewind like

2:36

like heart harp noise.

2:39

In the fall of twenty twenty one, Alex and I

2:41

started recording this podcast so that we

2:44

could, like, put it out. And the

2:46

business coordinator for Defector, Jasper

2:48

Wang, and our editor in chief, Tom Lai,

2:50

took the idea and the pilot

2:52

we had made to a lot of

2:54

different podcast producers, all

2:56

the big names that you've heard of. Every

2:59

company, every company that exists. And

3:02

they all basically said

3:04

that they couldn't risk it.

3:06

Right? That, like, the only podcast they

3:08

were accepting were ones that were sure things

3:11

that had already proven themselves to be popular,

3:14

which sucks Right?

3:16

That's the reason that, like, a lot of podcasts

3:19

don't get made and, like, it felt pretty

3:21

bad for us because we felt like we had a

3:23

good idea. And when they say sure bets,

3:25

It's like shows hosted by

3:27

celebrities. Yeah. It's true

3:29

crime. It's recap shows

3:31

of already popular shows.

3:34

It's shows that are following very familiar

3:36

format. Right. It's not that

3:38

the shows that aren't quote unquote sure

3:40

bets are absolutely going

3:43

to be sure bets. It's that they replicate

3:45

something that has already been successful.

3:48

Right? So were you, for example, to

3:50

go out with the show right now called regular

3:52

gossip stories from the regular world, it would

3:55

probably be easy to sell that. Right? Because you

3:57

have a comp, which is us. All that is

3:59

to say we produced the first three seasons

4:01

of this podcast with company called Audio Boom

4:03

because they were willing to let us

4:06

use their platform. And they told us

4:08

if we got to, like, certain number of listenership,

4:11

they would start selling ads on our podcast. Right?

4:13

So that's why for the whole of season one,

4:15

there were no host red ads. It

4:17

was

4:17

only, like, programmatic ads.

4:19

Also, I wanna take a step back and explain,

4:22

like, what the role of company

4:24

like audio boom or one of

4:26

these big companies that Jasper

4:28

and Justin were pitching to actually

4:31

do. Yeah, please. So what they're doing

4:33

is a. They're providing a

4:35

place for the producer

4:38

me to literally upload the audio

4:41

and connect that to all of your favorite

4:43

podcast apps. So that's

4:46

called distribution. And then the other

4:48

side of it is ad sales. So

4:50

they would be talking

4:53

to advertisers on our behalf, selling

4:55

ads for us, and then, you know, they would take

4:57

a little cut and then we would get the rest

5:00

of the

5:00

money, defector, normal gossip.

5:02

So, like, obviously, you don't need all of those

5:04

things. Right? Like, Alex could have jumped through

5:07

all of these extremely annoying hoops

5:09

and uploaded our podcast to

5:11

Spotify and Apple podcasts in

5:13

all of the, like, millions of different

5:15

platforms that you listen to this podcast

5:17

on. And we could have just said, you know,

5:20

we won't have ads and we'll only have

5:22

other money through subscriptions or something.

5:24

But I think, like, one thing that is

5:27

important to note here is that, like, there was a

5:29

big investment money in this podcast

5:31

from Defector Media. They paid for

5:34

us to make it. They paid for Alex to produce

5:37

it. They paid for my time

5:39

where I wasn't writing blogs and was instead

5:41

talking into this silly little mic. And

5:45

the goal was never for this podcast to

5:47

be as big as it was. The goal was for the

5:49

podcast to break even.

5:52

And for the podcast to breakeven, we

5:54

needed to sell ads on it. Like, that was just

5:56

kind of the way you make money

5:58

and, like, capitalism, which sucks.

6:00

Like, none of us are out here thrilled about it,

6:02

but it is the way it works.

6:04

Yeah. So so that's how we

6:06

side on with audio boom, and we signed a

6:08

one year contract to Adiobam. We

6:10

love Adiobam. Thank you so much for

6:12

taking a chance on us. Holy cow. And

6:15

so by early fall of last

6:17

year, twenty twenty two, we

6:19

were within months of our audio boom

6:21

contract coming up.

6:24

So we were about to have to either renegotiate

6:27

that contract based on the numbers that

6:29

we had done over the last year or

6:32

find a new distributor. Mhmm. And

6:34

so we started a

6:36

process that was exhausting

6:40

and arduous.

6:43

But also, I mean, to

6:45

to, like, put on a little bit

6:47

of rose colored glasses and look back at this process.

6:50

Like, was so

6:52

reaffirming to go from having

6:54

two members of our team take these calls

6:56

and basically be, like, treated

6:58

like nothing and told that this didn't matter

7:01

and like -- Mhmm. -- have to kind of fumble

7:03

our way through the beginning of this process.

7:06

To running a process this fall that was like

7:08

filled with big names. Right? And

7:10

like, people coming in and saying, like, we

7:13

love this pot cast and, like, we may not be able

7:15

to afford it or be able to help you guys

7:17

do it, but, like, we love it and

7:19

we listen to it, and that is, like, a cool

7:22

distinction, I

7:23

think, for us to have.

7:24

So our agents at UTA set up a

7:26

bunch of calls for us with companies

7:28

all over the country. I

7:31

wanna say we took,

7:33

like, five or six calls. Right?

7:36

Yeah. I think we took five actual

7:38

calls and then five companies just

7:41

sent us emails with offers in them

7:43

without taking a call at all.

7:46

And and also one million thousand

7:48

emails Hundreds hundreds

7:50

hundreds and thousands of emails.

7:53

So many emails bless the

7:55

agents. That process

7:57

was a process of both us

8:00

vetting the companies, but

8:02

also for them to get a sense of what we

8:04

actually wanted from a partner because you

8:07

know, at the bare minimum, what we were looking

8:09

for was a company that was going to sell ads

8:12

on our behalf. That was that's really all

8:14

we wanted. Right. But a lot

8:16

of the companies were coming to us saying, hey,

8:18

like, we would love to actually be your partner

8:20

in this. We would love to help you take

8:23

this show to the next level, whether that's

8:25

going on tour or, like, doing

8:28

special episodes or collaborating with other

8:30

things or, like, doing a festival or, you

8:32

know, whatever, all kinds of ideas

8:34

were thrown out. And it was this sort

8:36

of mutual vetting process that we

8:38

were going through.

8:40

Yeah. And I think, like, just

8:42

for full transparency, like,

8:45

we are picky.

8:47

Like, we were not just dating

8:49

to date. Right? Our relationship with Audio Boom

8:52

was good, and we liked being

8:54

there. And so -- Yeah. -- we were having

8:56

these conversations mainly to see, like,

8:58

okay. Is there any other company that

9:00

could give us same amount of like infinite

9:03

rain that we had and

9:05

complete creative control and also

9:07

maybe make our life a little bit easier. Right? Like,

9:10

maybe take some of the, like, marketing

9:12

stuff off of our plate. The things

9:14

that, like, Alex and I frankly just didn't

9:16

do for the first year because

9:18

we don't know how. And

9:21

so that's like a really specific kind

9:23

of partner. Right? Yeah. And

9:25

there there were a lot of reasons

9:27

why both sides

9:29

bowed out, either we bowed out or they

9:31

did. Yeah. I think that our commitment

9:35

to not going to being a weekly

9:37

show was something that kept

9:39

a lot of people from, like, putting

9:41

in an offer ultimately. Because

9:44

a lot of companies were, like, okay. If you're

9:46

doing these kinds of numbers, you

9:48

need to move to a weekly format ASAP

9:51

in order to make the most money possible. And we

9:53

were like, we can't do that unless

9:55

we have a team

9:56

of, like, twenty people. Right. And more

9:58

than that, normal gossip is like a defector

10:01

podcast. And one of the aims

10:03

and goals of defector as a company

10:06

is to, like, make content

10:08

that is good and that we

10:10

believe in, first and foremost, above

10:12

everything else. So, like -- Mhmm. -- when

10:14

you and I started this. We started

10:16

it being like, how do we make ourselves laugh?

10:19

How do we make, like, this fun for

10:21

us? And you

10:24

can tell that in the show. Like, that's

10:26

part of why it's good

10:28

is that you can hear the

10:30

fun in it. And, like, had we chosen

10:33

to prioritize the biggest possible

10:35

number we could get at the expense of our

10:37

mental health and our, like, quality

10:40

of life over a

10:42

good partner for us. You sure.

10:44

You might get an episode every week, but they wouldn't be

10:46

fucking good. Right? The episode that

10:48

came out every week would be the product of

10:50

two exhausted

10:52

minds. And that's not

10:54

what we wanted to do. Yeah.

10:56

So that

10:58

was a big reason we didn't go

11:00

with several -- Oh, several

11:02

partners. -- partners. Yeah. Mhmm. And

11:05

And the other thing is, like, a lot of people

11:07

wanted to own part

11:09

of the intellectual property -- Yeah. -- the

11:11

show. Like, they wanted actual,

11:14

like, percentage points of ownership of

11:16

the show, which was something

11:18

that we just were not going to give up.

11:20

That's something that's really important

11:22

us. Yeah. And I think, like, it's worth

11:24

noting there that, like, obviously, we

11:27

recommend keeping your IP forever

11:30

if you can. Right? Like -- Mhmm. -- part of

11:32

the reason we didn't wanna give it up is that that is

11:34

one of the few things that actually gives

11:36

you powers creator is, like, maintaining

11:39

your own intellectual property. And

11:41

ultimately, like, we made

11:43

this show. So,

11:45

like, it didn't feel fair to us

11:47

either to, like, give up IP

11:49

just so that somebody else could sell ads on

11:51

our podcast. So, like, that doesn't seem

11:53

fair at all? Mm-mm. So

11:57

that brings us to December.

12:02

We were having conversations

12:06

with one company in particular that

12:09

they sent in a proposal that blew us away

12:12

in terms of first

12:14

raw numbers of what they were offering us.

12:16

But second, just the care

12:19

with which they talked about how

12:21

they respect the way that we make

12:23

the show, the transparency that we

12:25

have, and also like naming

12:28

both of us individually and talking about

12:30

our work outside of the show and like wanting

12:32

to be partners with us as people

12:35

like, I I was really blown away

12:37

by that. Yeah. I think it it was really

12:39

evident in a lot of, like, the

12:41

conversations that we had that

12:43

people knew we were worth

12:45

money. Right? Yes. And,

12:48

like, there's a difference in having a conversation

12:50

and a business transact with someone

12:52

who is just trying to make as much money

12:54

off of you as possible and someone who,

12:56

like, actually understands why you're

12:58

valuable in the first place. Right?

13:00

And in these conversations, we've that's

13:03

it became really clear that this group knew that.

13:06

They were like, we understand that part of what makes

13:08

the show go to the brakes. We understand part of

13:10

what makes the show good is, like, doing

13:12

bonus content for your

13:14

subscribers. And being able

13:16

to have

13:17

a subscriber program. Yeah.

13:19

Like and being on every platform.

13:21

Right? Like, basic things, they

13:24

believed in and not just we're willing to

13:26

cave

13:27

on. So should we

13:30

tell everybody

13:31

who this company is that we've signed to it?

13:33

Oh my god. Everyone can grasp lead us on our new

13:35

marriage.

13:38

Normal gossip is now a proud

13:40

member of Radio

13:44

Topia, a podcast network

13:46

of independent creator owned listener

13:49

supported

13:50

podcast.

13:50

We Love it. We're

13:52

married to radiotopia.

13:56

Alexa, we're literally a dry bar when

13:58

we got the email from radiotopia

14:01

with their offer because we

14:03

wanted to have good hair for the DC show.

14:05

And, like, I opened it and

14:07

did you

14:08

no. How did this go? Did you open it and read the

14:10

offer, or did I open it? think

14:13

I opened it and I was like, holy

14:15

shit. And we There's an offer for radio

14:17

to be

14:17

up. I mean, we were, like, all amped

14:20

up. Do you wanna tell them, like, why

14:22

this was such an exciting deal for us to

14:24

get?

14:25

Yeah. I just okay. So I was really

14:27

excited as a producer. I've really admired

14:30

radiotopia for a long time because

14:32

they are a network of independent podcasts,

14:35

which means that, like, they're one

14:37

of the first networks that was created

14:40

so that in the podcast, podcasts that

14:42

are not affiliated with, like, their New York

14:44

Times or The Wall Street Journal or whatever,

14:47

or even NPR, like big NPR,

14:50

This was one of the first places

14:52

where good indie podcasts

14:54

that are, like, production forward, like,

14:56

very creator centric. Could

15:01

could, like, work together and sell

15:03

ads, like, as a group, essentially. So

15:05

they, like, support each other. They raise

15:07

money as a group. And then

15:10

they use that to invest in more independent

15:12

shows. And so I've been a fan

15:14

of, like, radiotopia shows since

15:17

I mean, for the last decade, they've

15:19

been around since twenty fourteen, and I

15:21

remember listening to, like, the illusionist,

15:24

ninety nine percent of visible and, like,

15:26

kitchen sisters, and the heart.

15:28

Like, all of these shows are, like, they're

15:31

like in the pantheon of, you know,

15:33

if you're an audio producer, it's like the great

15:35

audio shows. So it

15:39

was really exciting for me because

15:41

a lot of the conversations we'd had with potential

15:44

partners seemed

15:46

very interested in, like,

15:50

the product that was the podcast

15:52

as opposed to the podcast being

15:54

the product of production and

15:57

like creative work. Done in

15:59

the medium of audio, which

16:01

sounds like I I think sounds little

16:03

precious, like, as I'm saying about that.

16:05

Because think you're saying it in a way that

16:07

sounds very beautiful, but like the

16:09

rougher and grocer version of that

16:11

is

16:12

like, are you buying

16:14

something or are you helping someone

16:16

makes something. Yeah.

16:19

Yeah. Yeah. They're not gonna be a place

16:21

where, like, they have one producer working

16:23

on, like, ten shows at once. Like,

16:25

that's

16:25

never gonna happen. And, like, I

16:28

I mean, I'm excited to be I'm

16:30

excited for all reasons that Alex is excited,

16:32

obviously. But I'm also excited to be

16:34

somewhere where, like, creators

16:37

are the ones that are trusted with their product.

16:39

Right? Like, radiotopia is known for

16:42

empowering creators with the support to

16:44

deliver, like, well crafted, innovative audio

16:46

and the freedom to thrive on their own terms. And, like,

16:48

that's the shit we want. Right? Like, we want

16:50

to be given space to

16:52

do what we've already proven we can do.

16:56

Yeah. So, like, when their offer came in,

16:58

they were like, look. We want

17:00

to sell ads for you. We wanna

17:03

promise that we will sell this

17:05

many dollars worth of ads for you

17:07

in the next calendar

17:08

year. And we don't expect

17:11

you to change anything about the show. And

17:13

we were like, oh my god. They wanna kiss

17:15

us. I

17:18

don't know. I feel really excited about it because

17:20

there were a lot of ways that this

17:23

entire process could have ended that I think

17:25

would have felt bad for us. Right? We

17:28

didn't wanna be making a deal that felt

17:30

like we were giving up the

17:31

thing, like our baby. Right? This show is

17:33

the baby that we are

17:34

raising together. And, like, we didn't

17:36

want to, like, lose it.

17:38

We wanted to make sure that we could still make it

17:40

good. And now I feel like we kind of

17:42

have the best of both worlds, which is, like, a

17:45

group that knows what they're doing that can support

17:47

us that when we say, like, what is

17:49

marketing? They know what it is.

17:51

Right? Yeah. And

17:54

the ability to make what we know we can make good.

17:56

Howard Bauchner: So I

17:58

know there are a lot of questions. I

18:00

think we can preempt a couple of

18:02

questions here, but we also have bunch of questions

18:05

that close friends asked. Question

18:07

number one, are we leaving defector?

18:09

I would like to say that, no, we're not leaving defector.

18:12

And in fact, Alex is now coming on

18:14

full time at

18:14

defectors. So we are now Yay.

18:17

Co owners of defect dot com,

18:19

which is the media company that supports this

18:21

podcast. I

18:23

I told my friends when I signed the

18:25

offer

18:25

letter. I'm an indoor cat

18:28

now. That's what

18:30

I am. I'm an indoor cat for defective. I mean,

18:32

I think you and I have both said this and I

18:34

feel comfortable telling the entire world

18:36

is that we both had a lot

18:38

of, like, rough media jobs

18:40

where we were, like, not treated well and

18:42

not taken seriously. And, like,

18:45

pushed around a bit. And

18:48

we both kind of separately were like, I'm not

18:50

going in house anymore. Like, it's not

18:52

fun. I don't get to, like,

18:54

do the stuff I want, people treat me

18:57

poorly. It's not

18:58

worth the marginal small

19:00

amount more money that you make for, like,

19:02

to deal with that amount of bullshit. And, like, this is

19:04

the only place I would work in house.

19:06

It's the only place that, like, actually holds

19:09

up the values that I hold for myself. Which

19:12

is nice. I'm

19:14

very excited that you will be on board and

19:16

stuck with me.

19:17

I'm very excited too. Maybe

19:20

will finally become a sports fan. We'll

19:22

see. I doubt it. Okay.

19:25

So so let's break down

19:28

the distinction of, like, Okay. What

19:30

does it mean that we're joining radiotopia?

19:33

Great question. First of all,

19:36

the literal website that I'm

19:38

going to go to to upload our

19:40

episodes now is a different website.

19:42

It's like Incredible. -- radiotopia's website,

19:45

we're migrating the feed to have meeting on

19:47

my calendar tomorrow, that's not gonna

19:49

change anything for listeners, but it will change a

19:51

lot for me. So

19:54

that's distribution. They're gonna make sure

19:56

that our episodes are in

19:58

the right places at all times.

20:01

And then the other arm is ad

20:03

sales. Yeah. And so they are going

20:05

to be selling ads for us. Again, that's

20:07

not going to affect listeners, except

20:09

that, like, you will continue to hear ads and

20:11

maybe for different companies than

20:13

before. Yeah. Unless you are a listener who happens

20:15

to work for a major brand that wants to support

20:17

us,

20:17

in which case it's normal gossip at defector

20:20

dot com and Yes. Shout

20:23

out. Let's see. They're also gonna

20:26

be providing some marketing support because

20:29

radiotopia is a network of

20:31

podcasts. You will hear

20:33

us recording promos

20:35

for other radiotopia podcasts.

20:38

And if you listen to other radiotopia podcasts,

20:40

you'll hear promos for normal

20:42

gossip on them. Yep. And

20:44

that's just like a, you know, we're all pals

20:47

here and we're gonna

20:48

promote our each other shows. Yeah. I mean, I

20:51

I am excited to do that honestly.

20:53

Like, I'm excited to do, like,

20:55

both direct our listeners to shows

20:57

that we think are good. And

21:00

to be a part of a community where

21:02

producers support each

21:03

other. Like, that is not always

21:06

the case. What? Yes. And

21:08

I would just like to reiterate, a lot of these shows

21:11

are, like, some of my idols.

21:13

So I'm, like, it's really chill for you. Really

21:16

super chill. It's super chill, super

21:18

normal. The

21:20

other thing I wanted to talk about is that radiotopia

21:23

has their own fund raising drives a couple

21:25

of times a year -- Yeah. -- which is similar

21:27

to how, like, your local public radio

21:29

station might raise money. Yes.

21:31

That's because in addition to

21:33

being supported by grants and ads

21:36

and

21:36

whatever, radiotopia is also supported

21:38

by listeners. Exactly. So,

21:41

like, eighty percent of the fundraising

21:43

dollars that radiotopia gets goes

21:45

to shows in the radiotopia network and like

21:47

twenty percent of it goes to like running and operating

21:50

their whole

21:50

network. So when you pay radiotopia,

21:53

you are also helping fund us and other shows

21:55

like us. Exactly. And

21:58

so I know that might be a little confusing

22:00

because you might hear us a couple of times

22:03

a year participate in a

22:05

radiotopia fundraiser and say, hey, we're

22:07

raising money for radiotopia. That

22:09

might be confusing with the existing

22:12

subscription model for normal normal

22:14

gossip. We just wanted to clarify

22:16

what each of those things does. I

22:19

would like to make an analogy that's maybe not

22:21

great, but I'm great. Anyway,

22:24

Alex and I and the normal gossip

22:26

podcast are Phoebe Bridges, and

22:28

we play in a super group called Boy Genius

22:31

with Defector. Yeah. Right?

22:34

Okay. So defector is boy

22:36

genius, and we are just one part of

22:38

boy genius Phoebe

22:39

Bridgers. Yeah.

22:40

San Antonio Topia is, like, if Voyager

22:42

goes to ACL. And

22:44

it's, like, you can support all these bands

22:47

at once --

22:47

Mhmm. -- and you can, like, see them all at

22:49

once and, like, that's also great.

22:52

Yeah. Buying your ticket to ACL means

22:54

that you are, you know, a penny or,

22:56

like, ten dollars or whatever of

22:58

your ticket is going toward each

23:01

of these groups.

23:02

Right. So if you think about it, like, if you buy

23:04

a Phoebe Bridger's album, if you buy subscription

23:06

to normal gossip, you are supporting us

23:09

directly. Mhmm. If you

23:11

are buying things from defector at

23:13

large, you are also supporting us

23:15

directly, but just at a smaller percentage.

23:18

Mhmm. And if you buy things from radiotopia

23:21

and support

23:21

radiotopia, you are also supporting us

23:23

but at an even smaller percentage. Yes.

23:25

But in a different way, because the

23:28

the other percentages of money are going

23:30

toward the regular topia stuff.

23:33

Important to do you like the technology

23:35

that I've made for No. think that helps a lot.

23:38

I think that helps a lot because I imagine

23:40

if I were a listener, I'd be like, what do you

23:42

mean? Like, there's two fundraisers. Okay.

23:45

Got it. We are a

23:47

band. See how I didn't use a sports team.

23:51

Yeah. So we are continuing our

23:54

subscription model. If you're a

23:56

friend of a friend level subscriber, you

23:58

get access to the secret

24:00

podcast feed, which we aren't continuing to

24:02

publish to once a month. And

24:04

you also get discounts on merch, and

24:07

access to discounts on

24:09

live

24:10

shows. Yeah.

24:11

I just wanna wink really hard.

24:13

Like, imagine me wink really, really

24:15

-- Really? -- systematically, like, looseyield

24:17

blues when I say that if you are a

24:19

subscriber, you get early access

24:22

and discounts to live shows.

24:25

Live shows. Yeah.

24:26

Winking. Winking here. If

24:29

you subscribe at the friend level, you

24:31

get access to all

24:33

of that plus close

24:35

friends on Instagram where

24:38

we talk about a lot of this stuff and

24:40

also make early announcements to

24:42

things. And entered into

24:44

a pool to be on the monthly

24:47

subscriber episodes with us.

24:48

Yes. When you're on the close friends We

24:51

also do question box a lot where just

24:53

one of us answers your questions. And

24:55

that like, we have more questions to

24:57

answer here on this podcast and where

24:59

we are getting those questions from is the close friend's

25:01

Instagram. Right? So those are friend level subscribers

25:04

who we said, do you have questions about

25:06

a big secret

25:07

wink? And they said, yes. And,

25:10

yeah, so many people sending questions.

25:12

So we're not we're definitely not gonna get to all of

25:14

them, but let's just go through. I love

25:16

that. Let's see.

25:19

I just became a defector subscriber. Please

25:21

tell me this still matters with regards to normal

25:23

gossip. Yes. Yes. I hope that the Phoebe

25:26

Bridger's analogy works

25:28

for you. We love

25:30

Boy Genius in the family. Let's

25:33

see. Is this steel for defector

25:35

in general or just normal

25:36

gossip? This is an overall deal for

25:39

normal gossip. So, like, our

25:41

contract with radiotopia does

25:44

allow defector to pitch

25:46

other shows. In the future. So that is something

25:48

that, like, maybe we'll do. Maybe we won't.

25:50

We cannot see the future, sadly. Yeah.

25:53

But it is a deal for that

25:55

everyone benefits from.

25:56

Yes. And I did see a question,

25:58

you know, deeper in that was about

26:00

the distraction and whether the distraction

26:03

was part of this as well.

26:06

They are not. They are working

26:08

with multitude

26:09

productions, I think, is the company. Yeah.

26:12

And that was We're

26:13

busy. We're backing on

26:14

another platform. Yeah.

26:17

It was a separate process. Do

26:21

you have oversight on what ads are put on

26:23

the pod? So, yes,

26:25

we get to, like, every ad that I

26:28

read we get to say yes or

26:30

no too, so we get to choose the host red

26:32

ads. There are still some ads

26:34

that are, like, programmatic those are ones that, like,

26:36

I don't read that are just inserted into the episode,

26:39

and we don't get to say

26:41

yes or no to those individually, but we

26:43

say yes or no to, like, categories. Right?

26:45

So we'll say, like, no political

26:48

ads, for example, and then there won't be any

26:50

of those. But it's complicated

26:52

right to say, like, do we have we do have oversight

26:55

over what ads go on the podcast, but

26:57

we don't have, like, the ability to

26:59

just say no ads because, like,

27:02

we still need ads to make

27:04

money, and we need the podcast to be profitable.

27:06

And so, like, I don't know, capitalism.

27:10

Yeah. It's it's a tricky thing

27:12

where, like, every time a potential

27:14

advertiser comes in, we have to think to ourselves

27:17

okay. Like, do I feel comfortable putting

27:19

our names? Behind this. And

27:22

for the most part well,

27:24

I don't wanna say for the most part it's yes. Like,

27:26

we say no to a lot of stuff. No.

27:28

Yeah. That's why you'll never hear

27:31

a weight loss ad on our shows,

27:33

for example. Okay. Many

27:36

of you asked, like, several of you asked

27:38

to, like, if we get rewarded for

27:40

this, if we get any money, and

27:42

also, like, if we own the podcast or if

27:44

Defector owns the

27:45

podcast, which, like, okay, nosy, take after

27:47

a very little bit.

27:50

The answer to that is like twofold. The

27:52

first part of ownership of any creative device

27:54

is intellectual property, which we own the

27:56

entirety of. Defector does not own any of the

27:58

IP of this in the same way that Defector doesn't

28:00

own the IP of individual blocks

28:03

or any other podcast that we produce.

28:05

Creators, maintain all of that. That's something that

28:07

we decided very early on in the structure of

28:09

the company. The second part of that is like

28:11

literal dollars. Right? So, like, who

28:13

makes money off of the ads of this podcast.

28:16

And the answer to that is both of us.

28:18

We have, I think, is pretty unique deal in

28:20

all podcast. It could, like, you could probably talk

28:23

more to this, Alex. But Alex and I

28:25

now both have salary from Defector.

28:27

Right? So we are w two employees and we get

28:30

paychecks every two weeks. Right? And health care

28:32

and all that, like, nonsense. That

28:35

is, like, our base pay. Then

28:37

The way that the podcast income works is that

28:40

sixty percent of the podcast in podcast's

28:43

income goes to the company

28:45

of

28:45

defector, which because we are owners

28:47

of it. Some of it will trickle back to us,

28:49

which is like a kind of funny system, and the

28:51

other forty percent goes to us, which

28:54

that is I just wanna drive

28:57

home to listeners

29:00

who maybe aren't involved in

29:02

podcasting. That is an incredibly rare

29:04

deal for creators to

29:06

have with media company. You

29:08

know, the your favorite podcast that

29:10

are hosted by somebody who's just independent,

29:13

making their own show, they get to

29:15

keep, you know, a hundred percent of their

29:17

profits, you know, after any commissions

29:19

that might be taken out by any middlemen.

29:22

But, you know, I've worked in podcasts for

29:25

almost a decade, and I have

29:27

never seen a single cent

29:29

of a revenue

29:30

share. From any of the

29:32

shows I've ever worked on. Yeah. I've never done

29:34

a lot.

29:34

Been huge shows that have made

29:36

a lot of money. Yeah. And so when

29:39

we worked out this deal, I was I

29:41

had a moment where I was, like, kind of pissed

29:43

because I was, like, if I had this kind of

29:45

deal for every show I've ever worked on, I'd be

29:47

rich. Yeah. I'm not rich. So,

29:52

yeah, that's something that we're really proud of,

29:55

and we hope to be able to

29:57

talk about more and also, like, implement

29:59

on to other shows that we produce in

30:01

the future. Mhmm. Yeah.

30:05

Do you think this means more live shows?

30:08

Philly soon, please. You

30:10

may have recently seen me winking.

30:15

We, wink, don't have an answer to that question

30:17

for you at this time. Wink,

30:20

wink, but we

30:22

wink will soon. And

30:24

if you live in Philly, don't move.

30:27

Yeah. That's great. Coburg.

30:34

Will there be a change in the length

30:36

and frequency of seasons? There

30:38

will be. Yeah. There will be.

30:41

Actually, I just there will

30:43

be a change in the frequency

30:45

and length of seasons. We are one

30:47

of our goals going forward

30:50

is to be a lot more transparent with y'all

30:52

about, like, when the seasons are

30:54

coming back in

30:56

that, like, don't think we've done a super good job

30:58

of that in the past, and then you are all just, like,

31:01

sad because this doesn't even

31:03

make us, like, win more gossip at,

31:05

like, I don't want you to have a connection

31:07

fit, so we're gonna try and be more transparent

31:10

about that. For our radiotopia

31:12

contract, we are contracted for

31:14

twenty four episodes per contract

31:16

year. Our current

31:18

plan is to give you two

31:21

count them, one, two, ten episode.

31:24

Oh, more episodes. Two

31:26

ten episode seasons, which

31:28

gets us to twenty and then four bonus

31:30

episodes of some

31:31

kind. So maybe that'll be another telephone

31:34

episode. Maybe it'll be a live

31:36

show. Who knows what could be? Sprinkled

31:38

in. Sprinkled in. In

31:40

addition to the monthly episodes

31:43

that will not stop

31:45

coming. Yeah. Alex and I have had a lot of

31:47

conversations especially going into

31:49

this process of like negotiating our contract

31:51

with radiotopia and deciding how much we wanna

31:53

do about like where is the limit

31:56

of shows we can make good and

32:00

not burnout.

32:02

Well, to be clear, we

32:04

kinda hit that limit, like, halfway through

32:06

season three. Yeah. And don't know if listeners

32:09

can tell, but, like, probably

32:11

the the whole latter half of season three,

32:13

like, It was a fever dream for

32:15

both of

32:15

us. Yeah. We were not in good place.

32:18

I would say mentally. Okay. And

32:22

like, in full honesty, we weren't. I don't think either

32:24

of us was. And we

32:26

pushed ourselves to put out that third season

32:28

because we

32:30

knew that you wanted it and we wanted to

32:32

make it for you. And we did not

32:35

really do the math well.

32:37

To figure out if we would be able

32:40

to manage that. And, like, I don't want

32:42

us to end up in that situation again. There

32:45

are lot of things that we want

32:47

to do this year, like, tour,

32:50

like, make

32:52

cool funny episodes, like,

32:55

try some new things in production standpoint

32:57

that, like, we have to protect our

33:00

creative space to do

33:02

that. All of that sounds really

33:04

ominous. What it actually means is that in set

33:06

up getting twenty four episodes in

33:08

a twelve month period, you will be getting

33:10

twenty. That is

33:12

the math that we did as we figured out that

33:14

if we do, two ten episode

33:16

seasons instead of three eight

33:19

episode seasons, it will be a hundred

33:21

percent easier for us. Yeah. Okay.

33:24

I don't think there's any more questions, Alex. I don't think

33:26

anybody else had any other

33:27

questions.

33:28

I don't think No other questions. Yeah.

33:30

Nobody has been dealing me every

33:32

day, doing the podcast

33:34

every day, you know,

33:36

tweeting at us. I don't think anybody actually

33:39

cares when fourth season is coming back.

33:41

I think everyone is just waiting really

33:43

patiently and

33:44

feeling, like, it doesn't matter

33:46

to them. Is that has that been your experience?

33:51

Do you think we should tell them when we are coming

33:53

back?

33:54

I I mean, Yeah.

33:57

I think we

33:59

know now. We know now. So we're not gonna

34:01

tell them to our credit. We have been saying

34:03

this whole time we will tell you when we know.

34:06

And now we fucking know.

34:08

So season four will be

34:10

a ten episode season,

34:13

which will premiere on April

34:14

fifth. And we will see you then.

34:17

Yeah. It won't even be in

34:19

April full of St. Frank. He

34:21

promised.

34:22

Yeah. I don't have the energy

34:24

for that. Thank

34:29

you so much for listening to this episode of

34:31

normal gossip. This is obviously a

34:33

strange and rare episode of

34:35

business updates. If

34:37

you listen to this and thought, wow, I loved

34:39

TV Bridgers. I would love to support the normal

34:41

gossip podcast. You can do that at support

34:43

normal gossip dot com.

34:47

I'm Kelsey McKenney, and this is Alex who's

34:49

on Laughlin, and you did not hear this from

34:51

us. No, you didn't.