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Welcome to Sincerely Sloan presented by

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Uninterrupted. I'm your

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for the love of home. Six

1:22

wives, six lives, about

1:24

whom we think we know everything. But

1:26

beyond their mostly doomed marriages to

1:29

Henry VIII and, in many cases,

1:31

tragic ends, here were

1:33

six women who shaped history in

1:35

their own unique ways. The

1:38

National Portrait Gallery in London is hosting

1:40

a new exhibition called Six Lives, displaying

1:43

the images that have shaped our perception

1:45

of Henry VIII's queens. It

1:47

was just the excuse I needed to bring

1:49

together the most illuminating interviews about them from

1:52

the Not Just the Tudors archives. Across

1:54

six episodes, I'll also be exploring some of

1:56

the latest research and speaking to the curator

1:58

of the National Portrait Gallery. Portrait Gallery's

2:00

exhibition, Dr. Charlotte Boland, to paint

2:03

an even fuller portrait of each

2:05

of Henry VIII's wives. Our

2:08

second podcast in this series focuses on

2:10

a woman who changed the history of

2:12

England, Anne Boleyn. In order

2:14

to make her his queen, Henry

2:16

altered the very face of the

2:19

country, banished his closest minister, broke

2:21

with Christendom and set aside

2:23

his faithful, once beloved wife

2:25

Catherine. So who was Anne Boleyn?

2:29

In this episode we'll hear

2:31

from Dr. Lauren Mackay, Dr.

2:33

Owen Emerson, Natalie Gruniger, Dr.

2:35

Tracey Borman, Dr. Emma Keilmaron,

2:38

Dr. Estelle Paranc, Dr. Kate

2:41

Hurd, Kate McCaffrey, Professor Joanne

2:43

Deleneva, Dr. Charlotte Boland and

2:46

Matt Lewis features as Henry VIII himself.

2:49

I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb and

2:51

this is Not Just the Tudors. To

3:04

know who Anne Boleyn was, we first

3:06

have to know her people. Anne

3:09

Boleyn's parents were Sir Thomas Boleyn

3:11

and Elizabeth, me Howard. Elizabeth

3:14

was part of a wealthy and influential

3:16

family. Her father was Thomas Howard, Earl

3:18

of Surrey, later Second Duke of Norfolk.

3:21

But the Boleyn's too had been on the rise

3:24

for decades. Three generations

3:26

of Boleyn men marrying well

3:28

had produced an extraordinary social

3:30

ascent. The last of

3:32

these was Anne's father Thomas. Dr.

3:34

Lauren Mackay explains. The Boleyn story

3:36

is really the story of many

3:39

families at court in that particular

3:41

era. They rise generation by generation.

3:44

And in fact the story

3:46

with the Boleyns really takes shape in a

3:48

little town called Sol in Norfolk which is

3:50

sort of a one pub, one horse

3:52

town minus the pub with

3:55

Jeffrey Boleyn. And Jeffrey Boleyn

3:57

who was Anne Boleyn's great

3:59

grandfather. He actually elevated

4:01

the family from simply a family

4:03

who worked on the land to

4:05

landowners themselves. And he

4:08

formed the blueprint for this idea for

4:10

this mercantile family rising through the echelons

4:12

of society. And what he did brilliantly

4:15

was to marry into a very ancient

4:17

and noble family. So

4:20

he married Anne Hu. This

4:22

particular connection acquired more land and

4:24

gentility and wealth. Now,

4:26

their son, William Berlin, would go on

4:28

to be a very well-respected man of

4:31

Norfolk as well. And he

4:33

did the exact same thing. He married

4:35

into the prestigious ancient noble Butler family,

4:37

which is where we see the earldom

4:40

of Ormond. And their son,

4:42

our Thomas Berlin, would do the same. He

4:44

married into the powerful and noble

4:47

and illustrious Howard family. So

4:49

you have three generations building

4:51

upon these foundations, generation

4:53

to generation. That's really how

4:56

they become a sixter at court. And

4:58

crucially, by the reign of the first

5:00

tutor, Henry VII, they are already part

5:02

of the social fabric of Henry VII's

5:05

court. So we know

5:07

that William Berlin was a very well-respected

5:09

courtier, so Thomas's father. And

5:12

Thomas Berlin himself was actually a squire

5:14

of the body under Henry VII's reign.

5:16

So he had that personal intimate access

5:18

with the king. And of

5:20

course, this is a society upon which patronage

5:22

is absolutely integral to your

5:25

rise. So that connection with the king

5:27

is vital to your

5:29

success. So really, the Berlin story

5:31

typifies this rise from the very

5:33

modest beginnings to something that was

5:36

quite brilliant. And this all

5:38

took place before Anne Berlin was even born. This

5:42

steady climb continued with Anne's

5:44

father, Thomas. Laura MacKay warns

5:47

us that we needn't imagine he needed

5:49

his daughter in the king's bed to

5:51

succeed. Thomas Berlin

5:53

really began to rise at court under the reign

5:55

of Henry VII. He makes his first appearance about

5:58

the age of the king. Twenty

6:00

in the Kings army of all places. He

6:03

is alongside his father and they're pushing

6:05

down a rebellion that the Cornish Rebellion

6:07

string one of the many riot during

6:09

hundred to Seven strain. I don't think

6:11

the military was really he's seen, so

6:13

we actually see him sort of as

6:15

a fixture at courts. Mountain.

6:18

I think from a fling with very

6:20

lucky because he grew up in a

6:22

world of wealth and privilege so far

6:24

from being a steaming Matthew Valley and

6:26

ma'am he didn't need to have any

6:28

of that because he was so well

6:30

place. So until muslims a young man

6:32

at court he has these incredible connections.

6:34

his grandfather is com a spotless not

6:37

from a butler, was Lord Chamberlain's Elizabeth

6:39

of York and he would also going

6:41

to be Lord Chamberlain to cast and

6:43

vog and in her early years as

6:45

queen as quite a connection there. but

6:47

he's also flanked. By his father in

6:49

law the powerful of sorry Thomas Khalid,

6:51

these connections offered his own trains are

6:53

caught that very few young men actually

6:56

would have enjoyed. So the young from

6:58

Muslim navigates these fears. Of course he

7:00

passed of the inner sphere For Henry

7:02

the Seventh is also part of the

7:04

political sphere is he really gets his

7:07

be great at the beginning of Henry

7:09

the Eighth rain. So and fifty know

7:11

nine he's already been as it's an

7:13

old, the carnations and christenings and weddings

7:15

and funerals and there he is. At

7:18

Top and of our guns. Arrival in

7:20

England and he presents front and center

7:22

at Henry the Eighth Coronation as well

7:24

when you've made a nice as the

7:26

Boss So I have all before Anne

7:28

Boleyn his own the same but crucially

7:30

what happens in the first years of

7:33

Henry the eighth reign as that he

7:35

suddenly appears as a new face in

7:37

the diplomatic line up and is odd

7:39

because it really comes from know where

7:41

he has no history as an ambassador.

7:43

he doesn't apply as we know and

7:45

he's working all of a sudden alongside

7:47

real stalwarts. Of Henry the Eighth

7:49

Diplomatic Stable say men like Thomas

7:52

Finale and Richard Wingfield, and this

7:54

really comes about because of these

7:56

connections, his grandfather and his father

7:58

in law who are. New, the

8:00

architect of Henry the eighth Diplomatic Policy

8:03

and that is the one and only.

8:05

Rich had Fox who would of course

8:07

go on to mental illness Movies

8:09

said that way that interesting connection comes

8:12

in. So now I'm not going to

8:14

their his entire life, but Thomas Boleyn

8:16

obviously begins to ascended court and

8:18

to really cultivate this reputation. He's one

8:21

of those new men because he doesn't

8:23

necessarily have the notable cleaning support from

8:25

those tissue little insertion started generation. but

8:28

he himself is not actually noble. But

8:30

he has skill. He has political,

8:32

asked him and says something about

8:34

him that recommend him to the

8:36

power men have caught. So I

8:39

think that's very very important said.

8:41

by the time and billion does

8:43

bus to on the same in

8:45

the Fifteen Twenty six, Thomas Boleyn

8:47

is already one of the most

8:49

well for us have respected, reliable,

8:51

trustworthy men have caught. He is

8:53

an obsolete Six south and East

8:55

powerful, his influential, and he certainly

8:57

doesn't need. To rise any further on

8:59

the back of his daughter. What?

9:04

This intelligent. Ufo diplomat

9:06

did to further along with his

9:08

was nice to raise his surviving

9:11

children. And Doors and

9:13

Mary to ensure their own

9:15

successful placements. Of the court in

9:17

the fullness of time. I

9:22

had probably been born. Applicant? Who in

9:24

north of can around fifty? No one?

9:27

The to. Spend a large part of her.

9:29

Childhood. At Heave a

9:31

causal in Kent. Doctor. Own Emerson

9:33

takes up the story. We

9:36

know this probably means to evolve

9:38

around fifteen years. Which

9:40

is when Thomas Boleyn or Mission

9:43

of the Castle from his father

9:45

and will they we didn't have

9:47

a huge amounts of information about

9:49

the early access to believe children

9:51

see with you have argued please

9:54

they were late sixties. He's not

9:56

least the great says Thomas and

9:58

Henry Rollins. you us. Very

10:00

good. He's a church and

10:02

app pens past the alleys.

10:04

There's probably quite a lot

10:06

of loss to the building.

10:08

Boys died and I can

10:11

imagine this being an place

10:13

where and was educated, shoot

10:15

the gun for education and

10:17

most likely her parents were

10:19

involved in education sickly. Elizabeth

10:21

her mother to muslim was

10:23

a humanist educated ordered his

10:26

children well and he was

10:28

that three team and able

10:30

diplomat and was able to

10:32

secure really advantageous position. Notice

10:34

at New King Cole say

10:36

I like to think the

10:38

and as education and her

10:40

passions began here season. Insisting

10:43

thirteen when and cannot have been

10:45

more than about twelve years old.

10:48

She was sent to the court as

10:50

Margaret of Austria. Although

10:53

we know how confusing the as Margaret

10:55

of Austria. She had been governor

10:57

of the Low Countries since his dinner

10:59

seven and joined Margaret at her newly

11:01

built palace in Message on. The

11:04

initiative to send an to Margaret to

11:06

land since and to receive training in

11:09

courtly ways may well have come from

11:11

Thomas Boleyn, who had met Margaret to

11:13

his diplomatic career. Another possibility

11:15

that is is it was the idea.

11:17

Of Queen Catherine, His. Dr.

11:20

Emma Cahill Madden. Coffin.

11:22

When she sent and to migrate of

11:25

us sure it was because she values

11:27

education that she would receive in the

11:29

quite. A martyr of us chef and.

11:31

I think because she was trying to

11:34

start this international court with Henry system

11:36

is good idea to send some lady

11:38

for the content to learn things that

11:41

they could learn really in England. Probably

11:43

knowing that she was very bright as

11:45

a young person, she thought she'll do

11:47

really well somewhere else. You'll learn things

11:50

to come back and will find her

11:52

that much and that's how it really

11:54

works with many other ladies cel I

11:57

don't think it would have been defenders

11:59

of time. she was another lady waiting at

12:01

the court. Margaret

12:04

described Anne as bright and pleasant

12:07

for her young age. Anne

12:10

was at Margaret's extraordinary court for a couple

12:12

of years. But in 1515, Anne

12:15

joined the court of the young French Queen

12:17

Claude. Claude was wife

12:19

of the new French King of Hosea,

12:21

or Francis I. Natalie

12:24

Gruniger gives us a flavour of what

12:26

life at Queen Claude of the Francis

12:28

Court was like for Anne. Anne

12:34

was not in service to Francis, she was

12:37

in service to Claude, his wife. Known

12:39

for her piety, for her intelligence, for

12:41

her morality, she was greatly loved actually

12:43

by the people. And in the

12:45

time that Anne was there, Claude was pregnant a

12:47

lot of the time. In fact, she had seven

12:49

pregnancies over a period of nine and a half

12:52

years. And she preferred to

12:54

spend time at her estates in the Loire Valley.

12:56

And Anne, of course, would have

12:58

been expected to conduct herself modestly

13:01

and decoriously and guard

13:03

her chastity like a treasure. This

13:05

is essential. So I think

13:07

when you picture, you know, the dancing

13:09

and all the flirting, most days would

13:12

have been completely different. They would have

13:14

been spent doing activities that were well

13:16

regarded for women at this point. So

13:18

we can imagine Anne and Claude's other

13:21

ladies sewing, embroidering, spending a

13:23

lot of time worshipping.

13:25

So private prayer, public

13:27

prayer, reading, devotional texts,

13:29

reading scriptures, discussing

13:31

scriptures, going to

13:33

church, all the chapel, perhaps singing psalms

13:36

or something like that. Charitable

13:38

works that they would have done together, maybe

13:40

taking a walk in the garden and practicing

13:43

or playing an instrument or just chatting

13:45

among the ladies. So possibly some games as

13:47

well, Anne was known for knowing and be

13:49

very good at all the fashionable games. At

13:51

the time, the cards, dice, all that sort

13:53

of thing. But it's very different to what's

13:55

often portrayed in films and books. What

14:01

Anne learnt at Claude's court powerfully

14:03

shaped her outlook. Anne

14:07

Boleyn experienced female power like

14:09

no one before. Dr Estelle

14:11

Paranc. It was very clear

14:13

that being a queen was better than being

14:15

a mistress. Lens, wealth, giving, titles given,

14:17

no problem. By the end of the day,

14:20

the one who was sitting by the

14:22

side of the king, who was important, was

14:24

Queen Claude. And I think Anne Boleyn

14:26

saw that really and must have impacted her

14:28

in many ways. She

14:32

may also have been influenced by

14:35

the king's sister, Marguerite d'Angolem, who

14:37

sought reformation within the Catholic Church.

14:40

There's something very mysterious about

14:42

this relationship. Estelle Paranc again.

14:44

I think that they spent

14:46

significant times together. So you're

14:48

not going to have letters, you're going to have discussions.

14:51

And it's not just about reformed ideas. I think

14:53

they were just both very interested in education, especially

14:56

of women. I'm not saying they're best friends. I'm

14:59

saying that she probably learnt much

15:01

from Marguerite d'Angolem, especially when we

15:03

see how she behaved herself towards

15:05

reaching. It was only

15:07

after seven years of service to Claude,

15:09

and nearly a decade away from England,

15:12

that Anne returned to join the court

15:14

of King Henry VIII and Queen Catherine.

15:18

Lest we think of the court as

15:21

a static place, Owen Emerson explains. The

15:23

court is a very fluid thing,

15:26

actually. It moves from space to

15:28

space. So we have the palaces

15:30

of Richmond, Greenwich and

15:32

Westminster, and the court will

15:34

be continually on the move.

15:37

And Anne enters into what

15:39

is quite a sophisticated court,

15:41

as Catherine's maid of honour.

15:43

On a day-to-day basis, they

15:45

are essentially Catherine's companions. They

15:47

are praying with her, reading

15:49

to her, and also carrying

15:51

messages and being a front-facing

15:54

sort of representation of the Queen's

15:56

household. This

15:58

was an incredibly... colourful and

16:00

sumptuous environment that Anne was going

16:03

into. You can just

16:05

get a flavour of that from the

16:07

clothes that Catherine is wearing here. She's

16:09

in red velvet and cloth of gold

16:12

and she is completely bedoueled. This is

16:14

a really glittering environment and it must

16:17

have been a really dazzling environment for

16:19

the young Anne Boleyn to enter into.

16:23

Who was this Anne? To get

16:25

a handle first on what Anne

16:27

looked like, I talked to Dr

16:29

Charlotte Golland, Curator at the National

16:31

Portrait Gallery, about Anne's portraiture.

16:36

Charlotte, people will feel very

16:39

familiar with portraits of Anne

16:41

Boleyn but caveat

16:43

emptor, we should be wary

16:45

of trusting them. Why is that? We

16:48

don't have a painted portrait produced

16:50

during Anne's lifetime, a large-scale painted

16:52

portrait that's been identified with certainty.

16:55

The most familiar images with Anne

16:57

in a French hood, often against a green

16:59

background with her bee pendant with all the

17:01

pearls, is actually produced in

17:03

the late 16th century. It is an

17:06

Elizabethan image and it's so interesting to

17:08

think about the way that image is

17:10

constructed because it has long been wondered

17:12

whether that image might itself be based

17:14

on a lost painting produced during Anne's

17:16

reign, which is very possible and plausible.

17:19

But it is equally possible that it is a complete

17:22

construction of the Elizabethan

17:24

period when an artist was confronted

17:26

with the question of in the

17:28

celebration of Elizabeth and wanting to celebrate

17:30

her mother, how do you make an image

17:32

of Anne? And so that idea

17:34

of is what's recognisable in that image of

17:36

Anne, something that's familiar to us from portraits

17:38

of Elizabeth, was an image of Elizabeth's starting

17:40

point but then going backwards and so

17:42

there is sort of construction and residency of

17:45

Anne and in that it's intriguing as to

17:47

how she is referred to in the inscriptions

17:49

and this very conscious use of the bee

17:51

emblem. We can know from the amazing inventory

17:54

taken at Henry VIII's death of the

17:56

way in which his initials were combined with his

17:58

queens all over the place. H.A.

18:00

emblems being everywhere, or

18:03

A.R. of Anna Regina everywhere. But

18:05

a B for Berlin isn't actually really

18:07

necessarily part of the way that she

18:09

would present herself, but it's

18:12

intriguing to think about how the Elizabethans

18:14

needed to deal with what happened to

18:16

her, because while Elizabeth could never absolve

18:18

her, as it were, legally, because

18:21

to do so would imply that her father

18:23

had murdered her mother, if Anne were completely

18:25

innocent, nonetheless Anne needs to

18:27

be celebrated because she has had this

18:30

extraordinary daughter. And so it's intriguing that

18:32

as a Berlin that provides a helpful

18:34

bit of distance, as it were, from

18:36

the situation, and also they often explicitly

18:38

identify here as wife rather

18:40

than necessarily as queen. That has to be

18:43

because Elizabeth has to be legitimate, but the

18:45

queen element can be quietened down a bit

18:47

in the iconography. That's so interesting

18:49

because I have often wondered why a

18:52

B for Berlin, because after 1529 she's

18:54

going to be A.R. for Rotford,

18:58

and then she's going to be P

19:00

for Pembroke, and she becomes Mark with

19:02

a Pembroke, and then she's Anna Regina

19:05

in the Latin for queen. There's only

19:07

a very slim window where she would

19:09

have been B for Berlin, except this

19:11

amazing possibility you're presenting, that it is

19:14

posthumously that she's Berlin rather than anything

19:16

else. What do we have

19:18

then that dates from her lifetime?

19:21

The image of Anne that we have that's so

19:24

emblematic almost of the conundrum of

19:26

her reputation, and her semi-arrasure and

19:28

reconstruction is a portrait medal

19:30

made in 1534 that celebrates her as

19:34

A.R. and the most happy written around it.

19:36

But it's in lead, which is very soft,

19:38

and it's been very worn and flattened, and

19:40

there is only one that whether it was

19:43

created in hope of great celebrations

19:45

of the birth of a son in

19:48

1534 that didn't happen and was quietly put

19:50

aside, never got made in great numbers. So

19:52

you have that one sort of image of Anne

19:54

that is very difficult to assess now, and we

19:57

don't also know how much of a likeness it

19:59

ever was. how close it had

20:01

ever been to the Queen in its original condition.

20:04

There are other contenders to be an image

20:06

of Anne produced during her lifetime. Here's

20:09

just one of them. Previous

20:11

schools of historians have not thought it was

20:13

Anne, but that is changing. Charlotte

20:15

Boland again. The other

20:17

image which is growing much more

20:19

securely identified as Anne's scholarship is

20:21

coalescing more about who's Anne Boleyn

20:23

now is drawing in the Royal

20:25

Collection of a woman in a nightcap

20:28

wearing a sort of furred gown identifying

20:31

the sitter as Anne Boleyn. The

20:33

challenge with this portrait is that people have

20:35

looked at it and thought, how is the

20:37

status of this woman, this kind of incredible

20:40

intimacy, this just can't be a queen. Why

20:42

on earth would an artist have the access to

20:44

produce this? Who was it for? How

20:46

can it happen? There is that inversion of the question

20:48

of saying perhaps only a queen could afford to

20:50

have an image of that type made. And

20:54

that the identities have

20:56

been written on a number of the portrait drawings that are all in

20:58

the Royal Collection from the

21:00

great pattern book of physiognomies that Holbein

21:02

created. That while it

21:04

applied at a later date to the drawings, the

21:07

list of the identities of the sitters was

21:09

from people who would have known Anne by

21:11

sight. And that the vast majority of the

21:13

identifications of the sitters in these drawings have

21:15

been accepted. So why

21:17

question this one of Anne? And there's also

21:19

the great record of the fact that we

21:22

have that crumb that Henry Gavann, a

21:24

silk furled gown prior to their marriage.

21:27

And so is this that kind of direct connection.

21:30

The person who would have known

21:32

Anne Boleyn by sight and who

21:34

identified Holbein's drawings was Sir John

21:36

Cheek. Cheek was a tutor to Edward

21:38

VI and he identified the sitters in the

21:40

1540s. I

21:43

met Dr Kate Heard, the curator of

21:45

an exhibition on Holbein by the Royal

21:47

Collection Trust at Buckingham Palace to discuss

21:50

the drawing. We're standing in

21:52

front of a preparatory drawing labelled Anne

21:54

Boleyn and there's been lots of people

21:56

over the years who have said that

21:58

this wasn't Anne. I

22:00

myself am fairly convinced as it is, and

22:02

I want to know all your thoughts and

22:05

to talk about this particular picture and why

22:07

it has been identified as Anne and why

22:09

it hasn't. I think there are all sorts

22:11

of pieces of evidence you can bring to bear

22:13

on whether this shows Anne Boleyn or not and

22:16

to me, again personally I agree,

22:18

it's Anne Boleyn partly because of

22:20

the weight of that evidence all these little

22:22

pieces, the jigsaw that come together and

22:25

the first of those is that inscription, and we've

22:27

talked about these inscriptions a few times that she

22:29

would have known who Anne Boleyn was. So

22:31

the fact that in the 18th century, based on

22:33

the 16th century inscription, this was identified

22:35

as Anne Boleyn, that's a good start. There's

22:37

been some work on her dress, some really

22:40

interesting dress history done that's been tied

22:42

to items of clothing that Anne

22:44

Boleyn is known to have had. There

22:46

are for me two very other

22:48

interesting facts about the drawing. One

22:51

of the reasons for debating whether it is Anne Boleyn

22:53

is the colour of the hair and

22:55

the sitter in this drawing has brown eyes

22:57

but her hair is very light. We

23:00

looked at it under a microscope as part of

23:02

the preparation for the exhibition and the drawing is

23:05

a chalk drawing like most of those in the

23:07

exhibition, there will have been some rubbing of the

23:09

surface. And what seems

23:12

likely is that because

23:14

we know that Holbein built up his

23:16

hair colours in layers of different colours

23:19

to create the tone he wanted and he

23:21

started with light chalks and then built up

23:23

the darker chalks on top to darken the

23:25

hair. Possibly quite a bit of

23:27

that darker shading from the top has disappeared

23:29

so what you're seeing is probably a lighter

23:31

hair colour than she would originally have had.

23:34

But I also find the back of the drawing very interesting

23:36

because this is the only drawing in the exhibition that

23:38

has something on the back. Which

23:40

in itself is unusual for a Renaissance drawing,

23:42

it's usually paper's expensive and artists will use

23:45

it as much as they can. But

23:48

this has the Wyatt arms on the back. I

23:50

think it's really interesting that Henry Wyatt, who's

23:52

one of Holbein's patrons dies in November 1536

23:54

shortly after Anne's executed and you start to

23:56

wonder if this became a scrap piece of paper.

23:58

It would have been known. that no longer

24:01

would any portraits of Anne Melin be commissioned.

24:03

Unlike Jane Seymour, we've got the drawing of

24:05

Jane Seymour next to it. That

24:07

was constantly used for portraits, but you can

24:09

imagine Holbein turning it over and using

24:11

it for a different project at that

24:13

point. It's

24:18

always up for debate. That's the excitement about Holbein.

24:20

There's lots of discussions to be had, but to

24:22

me this is a good candidate for Anne Melin.

24:26

For centuries, we have built up this

24:28

image of Anne as a beautiful femme

24:30

fatale. Maybe we need to imagine

24:32

a radically different iconography of Anne. Perhaps

24:35

it's time to reckon with the idea

24:37

that maybe Anne was not beautiful. She

24:40

was just brilliant. Natalie Gruniger

24:42

agrees. We get this idea

24:44

of, I suppose, what she looks like, which is

24:47

a long oval face, quite

24:49

a strong nose, and

24:51

a pretty decided chin as well. Eric

24:54

Ives concluded that it's a face of

24:56

character, not beauty. She

24:58

probably had dark, Albany hair

25:00

colour. You know, a

25:03

lot of people think black, that we

25:05

actually have one contemporary account of her

25:07

having black hair, and that comes later

25:09

in the Deilisbeetham period. So her allure

25:11

was much more to do with her

25:13

sophistication, her intelligence, her charisma, her wit,

25:16

rather than, I think, her

25:18

actual physical appearance. What

25:20

then can we make of Anne's character?

25:23

Owen Emerson suggests that above all,

25:26

we see evidence of her intelligence.

25:29

You can see that evidence in a list

25:31

of her surviving, written

25:34

words. In her books of

25:37

hours, she writes the most poignant and beautiful

25:40

couplets. Everyone

25:42

that knew her said

25:45

how engaging she was, how sort of

25:47

vivacious she was. She had a wonderful

25:50

character. And I

25:52

would say a very keen intellect as well.

25:55

I would almost argue that she was

25:57

on a par with Henry, in terms of

25:59

being able to... debate and

26:01

I think that engagement underpinned the

26:04

loss of a turmoil

26:06

that their relationship went through. It wasn't

26:08

all sunshine with Anne and

26:10

Henry. There were some storms,

26:13

shall we say, where they were up

26:15

heads and their makeup and

26:17

I think underpinning that

26:19

was her amazing intellect. In

26:24

coming to the English court, what did

26:26

Anne hope for? What were her ambitions?

26:29

And did she have designs on Henry?

26:32

From a young age, 12 at least, we've got

26:34

evidence from a letter that Anne wrote. She

26:36

is dreaming of serving class rats.

26:38

She wants to serve her loyally,

26:40

diligently. She wants to be a really

26:42

great, perhaps waiting to her one day. She

26:45

wants to please her parents and she wants

26:47

to please the Queen. Natalie Gruniger, she admires

26:49

her, perhaps she even loved her. There's all

26:51

these years that we kind of just skip

26:53

over and we go to the juicy bits

26:55

later but Anne's a court from probably end

26:57

of 1521, start of 1522. We know that she

27:00

was in service to Catherine. Perhaps it was on

27:02

and off but she was definitely in service to Catherine

27:05

at some point. They would have spent

27:07

time together. They would have eaten together. They would

27:09

have worshipped together. They would have played games together.

27:11

There was obviously a relationship there. We

27:13

hear nothing until Henry's interest in

27:16

Anne which means that things are probably

27:18

going really well. Anne was doing everything

27:20

she was supposed to be doing and

27:22

this goes on for let's say four

27:24

to five years. Do

27:35

you remember what it's like being in your 20s?

27:38

I sometimes look back at that period of my

27:40

life and laugh just as much as I cringe.

27:42

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27:44

watch Queenie, the new original series on Hulu. Who

27:47

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27:49

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28:49

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Sloan. So

29:38

I think when Henry does declare his

29:40

intentions, a difficult

29:42

decision for Anne, I think it must of

29:44

course, her a great deal of distress. She's

29:47

a pious woman. She spent time serving the

29:49

Queen. I don't think it's

29:51

something that she just overnight decided, I'm going to

29:53

go off with Henry. I'm going to steal him.

29:55

That I think is ridiculous. I don't think it's

29:57

true. And I think we can see there are. 17

30:01

love letters that Henry wrote and some

30:03

in English, some in French, they're in the Vatican. And

30:06

one of them that's thought to be one of

30:08

the sort of first letters, Henry

30:10

says that he's basically wanting an answer from

30:13

her, he's wanting to clarify what their

30:15

relationship is, what it's about and

30:17

he says having been for more than a year

30:19

now struck by the dart of

30:21

love. To me it sounds

30:23

like he has been pursuing her for

30:26

at least a year and perhaps

30:28

Anne hasn't known how to react. Perhaps

30:31

she felt guilty, she was serving

30:33

Catherine, Catherine was a beloved queen. At

30:36

some point there's a shift I think and she felt

30:38

like this is her past but I

30:40

don't for a second think that she was the aggressor, that

30:42

she was the one chasing him, that she was trying

30:44

to steal him, that it was a sort of plan

30:46

of her family or a plot to

30:48

rise him further in status, I don't think so. Although

30:53

Anne is first recorded at the English

30:55

court in March 1522, Henry's interest in

30:57

her does not

30:59

seem to have been kindled until 1526. At some point

31:01

during the years 1527 and 1528, Henry

31:07

wrote Anne a series of love letters.

31:10

His first letters were written in

31:12

French, a language that Henry and

31:14

Anne shared, a language that was

31:16

deliberately courtly, formal and elevated. As

31:19

we've heard in one he declares that he

31:21

has loved her for more than a year and

31:24

he asks her to be his sole

31:26

mistress. He promises that he will be

31:28

loyal only and to her. I'm

31:34

turning over in my mind the contents

31:37

of your last letter. I've put myself

31:39

into great agony, not knowing how to

31:41

interpret them, whether to my disadvantage

31:43

as you show in some places or

31:46

to my advantage as I understand them in some

31:48

others, beseeching you earnestly to

31:50

let me know expressly your whole

31:52

mind as to the love between

31:54

us two. It is

31:56

absolutely necessary for me to obtain this

31:59

answer having been for above a whole

32:01

year stricken with the dart of love, and

32:04

not yet sure whether I shall fail

32:06

of finding a place in your heart

32:08

and affection which last point has prevented

32:10

me for some time past from calling

32:12

you my mistress, because if

32:14

you only love me with an ordinary

32:17

love, that name is not

32:19

suitable for you, because it denotes

32:21

a singular love which is far

32:23

from common. But if you please to do

32:25

the office of a true loyal mistress and friend,

32:28

and to give up yourself body and

32:30

heart to me who will be and

32:32

have been your most loyal servant, if

32:35

your rigour does not forbid me, I promise

32:38

you that not only the name shall be

32:40

given you, but also that I will take

32:42

you for my only mistress, casting

32:44

off all others besides you out of

32:46

my thoughts and affections, and serve

32:48

you only. At

32:54

some point Anne consented to accept the

32:56

title. Henry wrote to tell

32:58

her of how he suffered in her absence.

33:01

He begins, My

33:04

mistress and friend, my heart and

33:07

I surrender ourselves into your hands, beseeching

33:09

you to hold us commended of your

33:11

favour, and that by absence your

33:13

affection to us may not be lessened, for

33:16

it were a great pity to increase our pain,

33:19

of which absence produces enough and more than

33:21

I could ever have thought could be felt,

33:24

reminding us of a point in astronomy which is

33:26

this, the longer the days

33:28

are, the more distant is the sun, and

33:31

nevertheless the hotter. So it

33:33

is with our love, for by absence

33:35

we are kept a distance from one another,

33:37

and yet it retains its fervour, at least

33:39

on my side. Seeing

33:43

as they cannot be together he sends her the

33:46

nearest thing to that possible, a

33:48

miniature painting of himself, probably

33:50

one of those that had been painted by the horror-boots

33:52

in around 1525-26. can

34:00

to that, namely my picture

34:02

set in a bracelet, with the

34:04

whole of the device which you already know, wishing

34:07

myself in their place if it should please

34:09

you. This is from the

34:11

hand of your loyal servant and friend, H.R.

34:15

If it should please you, Henry says,

34:18

and letters to Henry, which we

34:20

know once existed, no longer

34:23

do. His survive through time by

34:25

sheer accident, or perhaps by

34:27

sheer design, they were almost certainly seized

34:29

and taken back to Rome, where they

34:31

remain in the Vatican Library. But

34:35

Anne's letters to him were not. We

34:37

should not imagine that she was silent. The

34:39

words she was writing to him evidently

34:42

moved and convinced him. The

34:45

demonstrations of your affection are such

34:47

the beautiful mottos of the letter

34:50

so cordially expressed that they oblige

34:52

me forever to honour, love and

34:54

serve you sincerely, beseeching you to

34:57

continue in the same firm and

34:59

constant purpose, assuring you

35:01

that on my part I will surpass

35:03

it rather than make it reciprocal, if

35:06

loyalty of heart and a desire to

35:08

please you can accomplish this, assuring

35:11

you that henceforward my heart

35:13

shall be dedicated to you

35:15

alone. I wish

35:17

my person was so too. God can

35:19

do it if he pleases, to

35:22

whom I pray every day for that end, hoping

35:24

that at length my prayers will be heard.

35:28

Henry was praying that God would endorse adultery,

35:30

but he didn't see it like that. In

35:34

September 1527, Henry's

35:37

agents had been sent to Rome to ask

35:39

for an annulment of his marriage to

35:41

Catherine. The business of getting that annulment,

35:43

what became known as the King's Great

35:45

Matter, would take another six years, and

35:48

could only be accomplished by the casting

35:50

aside of Queen Catherine, the

35:52

destruction of Cardinal Thomas Warsie and

35:54

the severing of England from the

35:56

Roman Catholic Church. Eventually

35:58

in 1535, Henry's

36:01

new Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Crammer,

36:03

proclaimed the marriage to Catherine, Knoll

36:05

and Void. He had already married

36:08

Henry to Anne, and

36:10

big with child, Anne was crowned

36:12

Queen of England on the 1st

36:14

of June 1533. The child

36:17

she was carrying was born on the

36:19

7th of September. It

36:22

was a girl. They named her after both

36:24

their mothers, Elizabeth. It

36:27

was a disappointment, and it

36:29

was a setback, and it was a bit embarrassing,

36:31

particularly for Henry, after everything he'd done

36:34

to marry Anne. Dr. Tracey

36:36

Borman. But she had proved

36:38

that she could come through a

36:40

birth, she could survive unscathed, and so could

36:42

her child, who was thriving.

36:44

So it wasn't a

36:46

disaster at all. And what I

36:48

really love, actually, is

36:50

that Anne herself showed

36:53

no regret, no disappointment. That

36:55

was all Henry. Anne doted

36:57

on her child from the very beginning,

36:59

asking this Elizabeth to be placed next

37:01

to her on velvet cushions so she

37:03

didn't have to be parted from her,

37:06

and even causing a bit of

37:08

a scandal by expressing her intention

37:10

to breastfeed her daughter, which definitely

37:12

wasn't done in a royal wife, and she

37:14

had to step down from that

37:16

intention. But she was

37:19

proud of Elizabeth, and made sure

37:21

that everybody honored her as the

37:23

heir to the throne

37:25

that she was. Anne

37:27

used her position as queen to advance the

37:30

causes that were dear to her heart, chief

37:33

among them, reform. Tracey

37:35

Borman again. Henry might have gone

37:37

through the break with Rome really sparked by

37:40

the desire for an annulment, but for

37:42

Anne, it was genuine. She wanted to

37:44

reform the Catholic Church, and she certainly

37:47

instilled her daughter Elizabeth with the same

37:49

kind of reforming zeal that would

37:52

ultimately become known as Protestantism. She

37:55

was enormously influential. She

37:57

took risks for her faith importing banned

38:00

heretical texts and actually showing

38:02

some of them to Henry.

38:05

So she was always a great

38:07

advocate for religious reform and she

38:10

was listed by one member of Henry's

38:12

court at the head of a group

38:14

of four or five really influential religious

38:17

reformers including Thomas Cromwell, her erstwhile ally.

38:19

Of course they would clash over religion

38:21

and the dissolution in particular with fatal

38:24

results for Anne but we

38:26

should I think focus more and celebrate

38:28

more the influence that Anne was able

38:30

to have during her brief tenure

38:33

as Queen. Her

38:41

tenure was brief because only

38:43

three years into her reign Anne

38:45

was accused of adultery, incest

38:47

and conspiring the King's death.

38:50

The last of those charges was

38:53

treason. Within three

38:55

short weeks in May 1536 she

38:58

and the men charged

39:00

with her had been

39:02

tried and executed. The

39:04

reason for these charges has long been a

39:06

mystery. Did Henry want to

39:09

get rid of Anne so suddenly? Was

39:11

it a conspiracy against her? Was

39:14

she guilty? Professor

39:16

Joanne Deleneva has studied a poem from

39:18

June 1536 which

39:20

was sent as a dispatch

39:22

from the French embassy in

39:25

London to Paris within two

39:27

weeks of this unprecedented and

39:29

unsathomable execution of an anointed

39:31

Queen. The dispatch was

39:33

written by Lance Rotte-Cull, secretary

39:36

to the French ambassador to England and

39:38

it shed some light on how these

39:41

accusations arose. Well

39:45

I think if you talk about it

39:47

in journalistic terms he delivers the speech

39:50

which is how exactly

39:52

did the story of Anne

39:54

Boleyn's adultery break and

39:56

that's his main claim to

39:58

hang here because he He frames

40:00

this as a conversation or

40:03

an argument that takes place

40:05

between a close counselor as a king

40:07

and that counselor's sister,

40:09

who he would

40:11

like to admonish for her bad behavior. And

40:14

so the sister responds with, well,

40:17

if you think I'm behaving badly, basically you

40:19

should see what's going on with the queen.

40:22

And she makes the accusation that

40:25

Anne has been sleeping with her

40:27

brother, George, and that Mark

40:29

Sneeden would know all about it. So go talk

40:31

to Mark and he'll tell you even more than

40:33

I can claim. Now of course there are other

40:35

sources that talk about the

40:37

fact that these accusations may

40:40

have arisen from her inner

40:42

circle, but the thing

40:44

that's distinctive about Carl is that he

40:46

dramatizes this moment. He gives

40:48

a dialogue of this conversation

40:50

between the brother and sister,

40:53

which has fatal consequences, of course.

41:00

So was Anne incestuous with

41:02

her brother? Anne and

41:04

George had a very special relationship.

41:06

Natalie Gruniga. They

41:11

were incredibly close. I think they

41:13

loved each other dearly. They were two peas

41:15

in a pod. I think having the two

41:17

of them in the same room must have

41:19

been overwhelming. You know, they

41:21

were just incredibly intelligent, captivating, witty.

41:24

And I think in the end, this really

41:26

graded on Henry. I think he felt somehow

41:28

diminished in their presence, to be honest with

41:31

you. It's pretty ludicrous,

41:33

but the only evidence that is

41:35

given at court, and this is

41:37

Shpui, used to Shpui the imperial ambassador

41:39

that's commenting on this. So this is a

41:41

man that of course is devoted to Catherine

41:43

and to the Lady Mary, every second he's

41:45

trying to improve their situation. That's what he's

41:48

there for. He's just totally devoted to that.

41:51

He says that the only evidence of

41:54

this incestuous relationship was that

41:56

George had spent a long time with his

41:58

Sister. This is one occasion that I've never seen. He had

42:00

a long time. I see if no

42:03

witnesses, there's no other testimony that we

42:05

know Wallace. That's the only. Thing it

42:07

is just farcical. really? That's all

42:09

they could get. Whoever it was

42:11

crumbling. Who have thinking would weaken it

42:13

is he? Oh yes. George spent a long

42:16

time with and that day because he did,

42:18

he would come back from diplomatic missions and

42:20

rather than going to the King he would

42:22

go to. And that's how close they were.

42:25

That's how much he valued his sister and

42:27

how much he believed in. Her right to

42:29

rule by Henry. It's really toxic and it's

42:31

really amazing that makes this whole story all

42:33

the more tragic to be honest, Another

42:40

enduring this is it. Ambulance

42:42

was accused of witchcraft. The

42:45

only contemporary reference that corresponds asshole

42:48

to this comes from a piece

42:50

of course third, third, or fourth

42:52

hand, suggesting that Henry's thought and

42:55

had attracted him by the use.

42:57

The city ledge. This.

43:00

Is picked up later in the sixteenth

43:02

century by a Catholic enemy of a

43:04

list of the first Nicholas under. Twenty.

43:06

Ninth of January. Fifteen. Thirty Six. Quite

43:09

a crucial that actually. Natalie grew

43:11

nigga is the cieply reports on

43:13

that very day that morning that

43:15

his heard Henry. Has confessed something

43:17

Henry stressed. something happens deplete, doesn't know

43:20

what it is at this point. But

43:23

apparently Henry and great secrecy has

43:25

confessed that he had been seduced

43:28

and forced. Into the second marriage

43:30

by means of sorts leads Psalms and

43:32

that owing to that he held it

43:34

is no said. this would still feel

43:36

it splits. There was confusion around exactly

43:38

what Henry was talking about. If Henry

43:40

ever said it, because let's remember,

43:42

this is translated swell and comes

43:44

from three different people to different

43:47

languages. So what's. The king implying that

43:49

is why for the which. Is.

43:51

He was. Then it would have

43:53

to lend credence to another myth. Which

43:55

is that. and as birth to

43:57

a baby that had malformations, Conversely,

44:01

Effects were associated with witchcraft and

44:04

sorcery, as well as moral and

44:06

theological and maybe sexual sins as

44:08

well. But. Let's go back to

44:10

the which think so. And. Was not

44:12

accused of witchcraft, With any at

44:14

the trial this is not only indictment

44:16

and Eric I'm actually says in his.

44:19

Biography that the prime me english meaning

44:21

the would at the time so to

44:23

lead with divination so he suggests that

44:25

is Henry did in fact he's this

44:28

term remembering all the people. It's concerts.

44:30

Cities? perhaps? Referring to those

44:32

promises that and fade into promises that

44:34

she would give him some is that

44:36

there's a union would solidify the cheater

44:38

main and fifteen employees have something like

44:40

that. It's possible that's what he was

44:42

referring to and that he still had.

44:44

Can't say I'm burning himself to one

44:46

of his court. He is. And when

44:48

said the concept that simply. Nicholas

44:51

Sanders Low that picks up on this is

44:53

painting the picture the which because people are

44:56

using and memories. For their own political

44:58

agenda So people that want to

45:00

curry favor with Elizabeth articles honoring

45:02

and memory and see becomes the

45:04

Sodas Protestant March. Three

45:08

Elizabeth and bring her down, His and.

45:10

His memory in order to do that

45:12

says a black and Elizabeth reputation by

45:14

saying what these three things about her

45:16

mother. So they will that going on

45:18

as well that I think if she'd

45:20

been accused of witchcraft we would have

45:22

had abandoned in the trial People like

45:24

simply he's talking about which is accused

45:27

of but if an incentive. It.

45:29

Was also Sundance who perpetuated

45:31

the idea that and gave

45:33

birth. To. A deformed fetus,

45:36

Berries. Absolutely no contemporary evidenced.

45:39

Eerie, Natalie grew together again. And

45:42

let's just remind everyone that Sanders at

45:44

the time is around six years old.

45:46

Just think space you will embrace. So

45:49

you know this is not something he's

45:51

an eyewitness to or anything like that.

45:53

He's obviously relying on things that he

45:55

third, but at no point during an

45:57

slice or Henry's lifetime. Or during and

45:59

with. for that matter where there

46:01

probably was reason to bring these

46:03

stories out. Did anyone comment or

46:05

remark on the appearance of that

46:07

baby and claim that it was

46:09

in any way unusual? Mr Sheppui

46:12

comments on the fact that Anne herself thought she

46:14

was about 15 weeks gone at the time. There

46:17

is no comment that there's anything wrong with

46:19

this baby apart from obviously the reason why

46:21

she's miscarried. In one copy

46:23

of Lancelot de Karl's poem at

46:26

the Bibliothèque Nationale de France, there

46:28

are some additional verses that carry

46:31

an important message about Anne's

46:33

guilt or innocence. I

46:37

think that some of the verses are comparable

46:40

to other verses that are found in different

46:42

manuscripts and why they're there and not

46:44

in others I'm not quite sure.

46:47

Joanne de la Niva. But

46:49

there are four verses

46:51

in particular that read in the

46:53

English translation. He's describing a moment

46:56

of Anne's execution and how

46:59

the witnesses to her execution are reacting

47:01

to that and he says that everyone

47:03

on the basis of her mightily

47:05

steady end judges her life to have

47:08

been prudent and believes that

47:10

they have committed a great offense in having thought

47:12

so ill of her. And

47:14

those lines are quite distinctive from anything

47:16

else that he's written because they are

47:19

the most explicit with regard

47:21

to Karl's depiction

47:23

of her guilt or innocence. And

47:25

clearly by saying that she has

47:28

been prudent, which he had said

47:30

specifically earlier on that he doubted that

47:32

she was prudent because she wasn't following

47:35

the path of the prudent mistress Claude

47:37

de France. Here he's saying her life

47:39

had been prudent. And prudence

47:41

is an important virtue, according to

47:43

Thomas Aquinas, it's the virtue that

47:45

you need for holding the passions

47:48

and the appetites in check. So

47:51

if you know that, if you know your Aquinas

47:53

and clearly he as a clerk would have and

47:55

many people at the time would have, that's

47:58

a freely loaded expression. right there

48:00

and it would mean that

48:03

he is suggesting that not

48:06

only had she repented of anything but

48:08

it's more than that she probably was

48:10

not guilty and no one should ever

48:12

have sought her to be guilty that's

48:15

pretty astounding. It's

48:17

so exciting because it means that DeKalb is

48:19

tying his colors to the mast we can

48:21

see what he thinks and it's

48:23

crucial that we can understand the meaning of

48:25

the language that he's using in order to

48:27

do that and also because

48:29

actually DeKalb as you well know

48:32

has often been used or particularly

48:34

been used recently by my dear

48:36

friend George Bernard to suggest that

48:38

actually this is an indication of

48:40

Anne's guilt and that the DeKalb

48:42

poem really testifies to that but

48:45

actually what you're saying is something quite different.

48:47

Right and it's understandable that other people might

48:49

not have come to that conclusion so usually

48:52

if they don't have access to these

48:54

extra verses so I do

48:56

think that these verses are important for

48:58

historians to consider in the overall picture.

49:01

Certainly early in the poem Carl

49:04

is not depicting Anne

49:06

in a favorable light. He says all

49:08

kinds of nasty things about her. He

49:11

says that she was full of malice

49:13

and evil and that's pretty damning but

49:15

then at a certain point it shifts

49:18

and he becomes much more sympathetic and generally

49:20

people have thought well this is the moment

49:23

towards the middle of the poem where

49:25

she's already in prison and she turns

49:28

her thoughts to God. That's what he

49:30

says and so it's because she

49:33

realizes that her past has been

49:35

bad, that she has not been

49:37

living up to a good Christian

49:39

standard, and she's repenting. That's

49:41

why Carl is now sympathetic to her

49:43

because she's repentant and worthy of our

49:45

mercy as well but

49:48

I think this changes that because

49:50

it's more than she's simply saying

49:53

she has repented. It's saying

49:55

she was never guilty. Her life

49:57

has been prudent And we

49:59

have thought it was her in we have

50:01

don't her a great since. And.

50:04

The nineteenth of May. Fifteen Thirty

50:06

Six. And Berlin. That.

50:08

intelligent, learned, reforming woman.

50:11

From. A family in the ascendant

50:13

shaped by training on the Continent

50:15

who had become like her erstwhile

50:17

Mr. Claude, a false and anointed

50:19

queen. Was. Beheaded. At

50:22

the Tower of London. Henry

50:25

had destroyed her body. But.

50:27

He could not quench her memory. In

50:30

her printed book of ours now kept it

50:32

he the causal an had written. Remember.

50:35

Me When you do pray that hope

50:37

this lead from day to day. Case.

50:42

Mccaffrey discovered some other arrays inscriptions

50:44

in the same book to the

50:47

homeless. Sir.

50:53

John Gauge previously seems to see who

50:55

sits inside this Birch Bayh prominent political

50:58

unrest, court and play citrus. The course

51:00

made fast and it's him and his

51:02

wife his base. recent side it's Mary

51:04

West was part of the West family

51:06

with a barn still a war and

51:08

Elizabeth shadow and epic age for base

51:10

tortoises. Sir Richard Gale said head with

51:13

a close friend of had a seventh

51:15

said is a kind of people who

51:17

unlike well at Harrys Court but there

51:19

since has been mainly in the province's

51:21

intense especially the women he wrestles. But

51:23

since have been mainly from this area

51:26

of a phenomenal piece of historical detective

51:28

work is done. What do you think

51:30

it tells us about the memory of

51:33

on his It's that it's something provincial

51:35

that it becomes just a memory you

51:37

keep in the county from which she

51:40

came or do you think it has

51:42

something more to tell us about her

51:44

status in people's minds it will tell

51:47

us a loss in terms of how

51:49

spite these widespread. Attempt to discredit on

51:51

in the his or her downfall. She

51:53

was. Still terrorist and held close

51:56

by. Keep pushing you have had

51:58

a close to her. And I

52:00

was able to discover a connection

52:02

between these other owners and Anne,

52:04

which comes to another woman, Elizabeth

52:06

Hill, who was the wife of

52:08

the sergeant of the King's cellar, Richard Hill. And

52:11

we have some anecdotal evidence to suggest that

52:13

they were close to Anne. And

52:15

I suppose we could imagine that this is

52:17

a Protestant story in some ways. If

52:20

they're very willing to cross out the

52:22

Pope's name, and if they're cherishing Anne's

52:25

memory, those two things might be connected

52:27

by their faith at the time. Do

52:30

you think that's part of it? I think certainly that is

52:32

part of it, because I think that we see

52:34

in the completion of the time that the

52:36

Pope said this, that at least the Confirm

52:38

was here a compliance to the kind of

52:40

evangelism at the time. But

52:42

whether that's purely religion, also I think

52:44

definitely is a personal connection to Anne.

52:47

But with this personal connection comes a

52:49

suggestion that maybe they were connected also

52:51

in that religious way as well, and

52:53

in these kind of Kent networks that

52:55

were close to the Berlin family. And

52:57

it feels like perhaps that remained in

52:59

similar religious circles as well. Anne

53:02

was remembered. And

53:05

she still is. Thanks

53:26

to you for listening to Not Just the

53:28

Tudors from History Hit. And

53:30

also to my researcher Alice Smith, my

53:33

producer Rob Weinberg and Ella

53:35

Baxorn who edited this episode.

53:38

We're always eager to hear from

53:40

you, so do drop us a

53:43

line at notjustthetudors at historyhit.com or

53:46

on X, formerly known as

53:49

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53:51

do remember to follow Not Just the Tudors

53:53

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53:56

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