0:00

When you think about abortion, there's

0:02

so much noise around it. But

0:06

there's a much quieter note

0:08

amidst all of that noise. Abortion

0:11

pills take two. Listen wherever

0:14

you find podcasts.

0:20

Listener supported. WNYC

0:23

Studios.

0:27

Welcome to America, where if you're any kind

0:29

of different that they don't agree with, you don't

0:31

get rights at all. A procedure that should

0:34

only be between the minor, their

0:36

doctor, and the parent is now

0:38

being controlled by the government. Transphobia

0:41

is very scary. As a parent of

0:44

not one, but two trans children, I am

0:46

terrified. I never post videos of my kids

0:49

because transphobia is scary.

0:50

Abortion must

0:52

be eradicated from public life

0:55

in the country. To my friends and

0:57

family that like to tell me, I want to see

0:59

it from both sides. This is the other side.

1:01

Complete eradication. We call that genocide

1:04

in history. Thank you. It

1:06

is our job to not let this

1:08

sh** happen. So get your friends

1:10

to vote, organize protests across

1:12

the country. I will make videos on it. Please

1:15

stay. It's hard, but please

1:17

stay.

1:33

It's Snotes from America. I'm

1:35

Kai Wright, and welcome to the show.

1:40

My first real full-time

1:42

job as a reporter was at an LGBT

1:45

community newspaper back in the mid-1990s. That

1:48

is a lifetime ago on just

1:50

about any political issue, but truly on some

1:52

of the debates I was covering then. There

1:54

was one really big story in particular back

1:57

then that seems like a report

1:59

from Mars.

1:59

today. The idea that you could get

2:02

therapy to make yourself properly

2:04

heterosexual. Gay conversion

2:07

therapy, as it was called, has been well

2:09

and truly discredited and few well-meaning

2:11

people would today suggest that my therapist

2:14

should try convincing me that I'm actually

2:16

straight. But

2:18

conversion therapy remains very much

2:21

alive when it comes to transgender people.

2:24

And moreover, if you want to understand why

2:26

there's an eruption of bills targeting transgender

2:28

people and state legislatures around the country,

2:31

you have to understand the history of this particular

2:34

idea. This week we're going to talk

2:36

about that history and where it fits in the ideology

2:39

of the Christian nationalist movement. And we're

2:41

going to check in with an advocate in Tennessee who's

2:43

been working with families affected by that state's new

2:45

law, banning gender affirming care for minors.

2:49

I'm joined first by Amara Jones. She's

2:51

the founder of Translash Media and host

2:53

of their podcast, The Anti-Trans Hate

2:55

Machine, a plot against equality.

2:58

Season two of the podcast launches later this

3:00

month and it begins with a deep

3:03

dive into the history of conversion therapy.

3:05

And Amara, it is nice to have you back on the show.

3:08

Thanks for having me. I think it was two years

3:11

ago when we were talking about this very

3:13

thing and you were predicting exactly where we're at. So

3:17

you did, you begin this season,

3:19

this new season of your podcast with, you know, this deep

3:21

dive from decades in the past, talking about

3:23

the history of conversion therapy. Why start

3:25

there?

3:29

It's important because the

3:32

entire predicate on these bills

3:34

is that transness is not a real thing.

3:37

It's a made up thing. And

3:40

that's not an idea that's

3:42

actually shared by the medical or the psychological

3:45

community.

3:46

It's literally a made up notion. And

3:50

so we began looking at, well,

3:52

where does the idea of anything

3:55

related to transness or sexual orientation

3:57

come up

3:58

first?

3:59

first as a made-up idea. And

4:02

when we dug into it, it was due

4:06

to the entire conversation around

4:09

conversion therapy. And I think that

4:11

we have to understand that conversion therapy would

4:13

have died out in

4:15

the 1980s were it not for

4:18

essentially one man.

4:19

And that's James Dobson who ran

4:21

the Family Research Council, who

4:24

single-handedly found a way to not

4:26

only maintain the idea, but set

4:28

up a network of thousands of therapists

4:31

who would work alongside of him driven by

4:33

religious ideology to maintain it. And

4:35

everything that they did to maintain conversion

4:38

therapy, setting up pseudo-scientific groups,

4:40

and finding quote, ex-gays, all

4:42

of whom now have renounced that, was

4:45

essentially the road test for everything they've

4:47

done on essentially transness

4:51

as something that is real or not. And

4:53

so in order to understand where

4:56

this notion came from, how the conversation

4:58

has been maintained, and how they've essentially

5:01

successfully run this

5:03

disinformation campaign against trans people,

5:05

which became the predicate for these bills, you've

5:07

got to understand what happened with conversion therapy.

5:10

And when and how did that pivot

5:12

happen to saying, OK, well, we're going

5:15

to focus this on trans people,

5:17

the conversion therapy piece of it? It

5:19

really became, well, for the longest time,

5:22

not surprising to anyone who is

5:24

watching how the present

5:26

conversation has somehow morphed into

5:29

drag queens. There's this weird

5:32

conglomeration of anything outside

5:34

of the gender binary

5:36

on the right. So for the longest time,

5:38

transness

5:39

was wrapped into their

5:42

campaign against gays

5:45

and lesbians in particular. And

5:47

so for the longest time, they just wrapped the

5:49

whole notion of transness in with

5:51

that. And so conversion therapy was wrapped

5:54

into that.

5:55

Around the time of the 2009-ish period,

6:00

they began to understand

6:02

that

6:03

gays and lesbians were beginning to find

6:06

wider acceptance in society. They kind of noticed

6:08

it first around the Don't Say,

6:10

I'm sorry, Don't Ask, Don't Tell era, but

6:13

really beginning in this 2008-ish, nine-ish era. And

6:18

so they began to understand pretty

6:20

quickly that there was a possibility

6:23

that they may lose this fight.

6:25

And so they actually began to set up new

6:28

pseudo scientific organizations focused

6:31

on trans people during that time. So

6:33

what's fascinating

6:33

to everyone who says that the

6:36

right wing is responding to trans visibility,

6:38

what's fascinating is because there's such good

6:41

cultural listening, they've understood

6:43

where the debate and the arguments were going

6:45

even before people inside of the movement have understood

6:48

that. Long and long ago, yeah. Yeah.

6:51

And you say in

6:53

the podcast that we have to understand all

6:55

of this when we start now hearing

6:57

phrases like social contagion

6:59

and indoctrination sessions. And

7:02

so these are ideas that say

7:04

that part of the growth in

7:07

young people who are identify,

7:09

I don't know if that's the right way to put

7:11

it, but the argument is that there is a growing number

7:14

of young people who are identifying as

7:17

trans or are exploring their gender

7:19

journeys and that it's a

7:21

consequence of a contagion

7:23

that is spreading socially. You

7:26

talked with a mother who really

7:29

struggled with this idea when her daughter

7:31

came out. And

7:34

I thought her story was really powerful. Can

7:36

you just introduce us to that story quickly and

7:40

how she came to this idea of

7:42

social contagion?

7:44

Now for the full story, everyone will

7:46

have to listen to the podcast. It launches on

7:48

March 31, so we're not going to preview too much.

7:51

But yes, what happened, what's

7:53

so interesting about this family, is

7:55

that this family is one where

7:57

everyone essentially is deeply rational.

8:00

If you were to look at them from the outside, they should be

8:02

immune to these ideas. They're not religious.

8:04

They are highly scientific

8:08

and logical and nature and structure. But

8:11

they were pulled into these ideas

8:13

because they have been

8:15

made to sound as if they are grounded

8:18

in some sort of science and logic because

8:20

the right wing has set up an array of pseudo scientific

8:23

organizations to peddle junk science.

8:26

And so what was fascinating to me about this story

8:28

is that they pretty much understand they,

8:31

meaning the Christian nationalist movement, understand that we live

8:33

in a transphobic society and that transphobia

8:36

is a default for so many people.

8:39

And so if you can begin to whitewash

8:41

the notion of hate from transphobia, you

8:43

can actually make transphobia highly acceptable

8:46

to people. And that's essentially what

8:48

happened in this family where they played

8:50

on the discomfort that this

8:54

mother had about their child

8:56

being trans and through a series

8:58

of conversations seated on the

9:01

internet and on a couple of sites

9:03

in particular with

9:04

these ideas, essentially drew this

9:07

parent into kind of a four

9:09

year stalling

9:12

of blocking the transition

9:14

of their kid to really

9:17

serious harm to that child and to their family.

9:19

And so the

9:22

website in particular, there

9:25

was a particular blog that

9:27

really drew this person in and

9:29

that has been a big

9:32

player in drawing parents into this

9:34

belief system, right? I mean, how

9:36

did that blog become such a big deal?

9:39

So it's

9:41

a pariah. I wish we could

9:44

refer to it in the past tense. I wish

9:46

we could say that it was. The problem is

9:48

that it still actively is. Essentially

9:51

it started out as a gathering

9:53

place for parents who were trans

9:55

skeptical or out and out hostile

9:58

to their parents. And because the conversation

10:01

in this site grew, it pulled in,

10:03

it began to act as a center of gravity for

10:06

Christian nationalist organizations

10:09

and movements, fringe,

10:12

Jungian psychotherapists, various

10:16

people who are questioned transness overall,

10:22

strange sort of scientists who somehow

10:24

used the conversation there to become even

10:26

more prominent. And so it acted

10:29

at this weird center of gravity. And

10:31

so it looks as if this

10:34

blog is natural and all the rest of it. But

10:37

if you were to pull back, it looks as if

10:39

the type of place that is sculptured,

10:41

that is created

10:44

to garner this type of

10:46

conversation. And so what happens, as

10:48

you know, is that once you have a site

10:50

on the internet that acts as a center of gravity

10:52

that can pull in kind of this motley crew

10:54

of conversations, it then acts as

10:56

a nexus point for that to spread

10:59

across the internet. And that's exactly what happened.

11:01

It acted as a place where parents and

11:03

researchers and quotes were reinforced

11:06

in their notions of the idea of transits as

11:08

a social contagion, and then where the idea

11:11

of transits as a social contagion began to

11:13

spread. She said to you, the mother

11:15

said to you, as almost as an aside, and we've got about

11:17

a minute for I have to go and break, but she said that they

11:19

call it transphobia

11:22

for

11:22

a reason. What

11:24

do you think she meant by that?

11:26

I think she meant that if it

11:28

walks like a duck and

11:31

quacks like a duck, it's a duck. And

11:34

that no matter how whitewashed,

11:36

how reasonable, how detached,

11:39

transphobia may sound, it's still

11:42

transphobia. And so if someone tells

11:44

you that your child is

11:46

trans, but you have

11:49

someone present to you this idea of, quote,

11:51

watchful waiting, which is one of their concepts,

11:54

that that's actually a transphobic idea. Because if

11:56

someone, if a medical professional came to you

11:58

and said that your child is trans, had

12:01

some other type of condition

12:03

that needed to be addressed through some

12:05

type of therapeutic moves, you wouldn't

12:08

wait, you would move. And the only reason

12:10

why you don't move on this is because transphobia

12:12

is dressed up to look comfortable.

12:15

We have to take a break. Mar Jones will

12:17

be back with us later in the hour to

12:19

talk more about the podcast, the Anti-Trans

12:22

Hate Machine launching later this month. And

12:24

listeners, we'd love to hear from you. Have you or

12:26

your family been affected by the surge

12:29

in legislation targeting transgender people or

12:32

by the political interest in gender identities among

12:34

young people in particular? Tell us how,

12:37

perhaps you're a parent, perhaps you're a transgender

12:39

or gender non-conforming person. Maybe

12:41

you're a care provider, an educator. How

12:44

is this political moment affecting

12:45

your life? We'll take your calls

12:47

and continue the conversation after a short break.

12:58

Hi, everyone.

13:10

I'm Rahima, and I help

13:12

produce the show. So we're

13:14

planning an on-air celebration of Ramadan

13:16

next week, kind of like how

13:18

we've celebrated Yalda and Juneteenth

13:21

in the past. And we need your

13:23

help for this one. If you

13:25

celebrate Ramadan, we want to know how

13:27

it has changed over the years for you. Maybe

13:30

there's a specific way you like to give back to your

13:33

community during the month. Or maybe

13:35

you have kids now and you're figuring out how

13:37

to make the holidays special for them.

13:39

Whatever it is, we'd love for you to share

13:41

it with us by sending us

13:44

a voicemail, which we may play on the show. Here's

13:46

how you do that. Just

13:48

go to notesfromamerica.org and

13:51

click on the green button that says Start Recording. Thank

13:53

you, and Ramadan Mubarak. Ooh!

14:15

It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright,

14:17

and this week we are talking about the surge

14:19

in bills targeting transgender people and

14:21

state legislatures around the country. Analysis

14:24

from both civil rights groups and news

14:26

organizations have found state lawmakers

14:29

introducing record numbers of bills

14:31

targeting transgender people in the last two

14:33

legislative sessions. Youth are

14:35

a particular focus of this legislation,

14:38

and NPR analysis this past November

14:41

found that 86% of the bills in the past

14:43

two years focused on trans youth. Tennessee

14:46

is the latest state to make headlines in this

14:48

movement. Governor Bill Lee signed a law

14:50

earlier this month that will ban health care

14:52

providers from giving gender-affirming care to minors.

14:56

Tennessee is the fifth state to restrict health

14:58

care in one way or another for transgender people according

15:00

to ACLU. And it's the first

15:02

state to restrict drag performances

15:04

in public places, though there are several

15:07

similar bills making their way through other state

15:09

legislatures. Before the break,

15:11

I was speaking with Amara Jones, founder of

15:13

Translash Media, about the history

15:15

behind this moment. She'll join us again

15:17

later in the show, but for now I want to turn to Tennessee

15:19

in particular.

15:21

Henry Seton is the trans justice advocate

15:23

at the ACLU of Tennessee, which

15:25

is one of the civil rights groups that I believe

15:28

have sued to challenge the state in the new law

15:30

in Tennessee. He joins me now. Henry,

15:33

thanks for coming on the show.

15:34

Yeah, thank you, Kai. I really appreciate it. You guys

15:36

have filed suit, right? So we are

15:38

preparing to file suit at the moment, but we

15:41

have made a statement with the

15:43

ACLU, like the National Organization, and

15:45

Lambda Legal as well, saying

15:48

that we will be on the books with a lawsuit

15:50

pretty soon. Gotcha. So can

15:52

you first just help people understand

15:55

what this new law means for individual

15:58

people in their lives? Like when it takes a...

15:59

what will it mean

16:02

for transgender youth and their families? Yeah,

16:05

so I think one of the main sticking

16:07

points about this piece of legislation

16:09

that makes it so vile

16:12

and hateful for a lot of people is

16:15

the fact that if by

16:17

March 31, 2024, you have not turned 18, you

16:22

will be required to detransition

16:24

on that date, which means that even if you are already

16:27

currently on any sort of puberty

16:29

blocker or hormone therapy before

16:32

this law goes into effect in July, you

16:34

will still be required to come

16:36

off of it. So we've seen it already have

16:38

major impacts where children

16:41

and teens and their families who do want

16:43

to pursue this life saving medically necessary

16:46

care can't find a doctor

16:48

willing to take in a new patient at the moment

16:50

because of all the heat that's been brought around them.

16:54

And it also just really

16:56

vilifies the medical practice

16:58

as a whole with its extreme statute

17:00

of limitations, which can lead to quite

17:02

a brain drain

17:04

per se in Tennessee, whereas

17:07

doctors are seeing us just completely

17:10

throw away their expertise and knowledge

17:13

and say, we're going to extra punish

17:15

you for doing what is medically sound. Right.

17:18

So it's leading to a lot of doctors

17:20

wanting to move away as well. And

17:22

again, the law hasn't even gotten into effect

17:24

yet. It goes into effect July 1. A couple

17:28

of other things that it does. And just

17:30

to underline, though, I want to make sure I follow this to be

17:32

clear, you know, because it's not we're not

17:34

just saying that people,

17:37

you know, in the future, a 16 year

17:40

old in the future who says to

17:42

their parents, hey, you know, I'm

17:44

on a journey and I'm coming out to you as transgender.

17:47

That person can't find care in

17:50

the state of Tennessee in the future. It's not

17:52

just that it's somebody who

17:54

has already is already identifying

17:57

as transgender is already living as transgender is already

17:59

receiving. treatment will have to come

18:01

off treatment if they stay

18:04

in the state of Tennessee. Yeah, that's correct.

18:07

So, and sorry, so you were about to say, I just wanted

18:09

to make sure listeners caught that detail. So you were just about

18:11

to say other things that it's going to do. Yeah,

18:14

it's definitely a cynical piece that Tennessee

18:16

is pretty unique in having. But other

18:19

things that it does is, it's like pretty

18:21

standard. I hate to say that because

18:24

it's so popular, but it's pretty standard for other

18:27

bills that we've seen around the nation that do this, where

18:29

it's just a complete blanket ban

18:30

on puberty blockers, hormone

18:32

therapy, and any surgical procedure for

18:37

anyone under the age of 18. The attorney

18:40

general has up to 20 years to bring

18:42

a suit against a healthcare provider

18:44

and a minor can

18:47

sue

18:47

the doctor that gave them puberty

18:50

blockers or hormone therapy up to 10 years

18:53

after they turn 18.

18:55

Listeners, if you or your

18:57

family has been affected by this kind of legislation

18:59

in your state, or if just the broader political moment in which this conversation

19:02

is happening, in which transgender youth

19:04

in particular are under such intense political scrutiny,

19:07

if that's touched your life in

19:10

any way, I'd love to hear from you. So that's

19:13

what it would mean. We've talked about what it would mean

19:15

for young people in the state of Tennessee.

19:18

What will it mean for transgender adults

19:21

in Tennessee? For yourself, what if anything

19:23

will the restrictions say on these

19:25

public drag performances mean for you?

19:28

Yeah, so I think

19:30

the ban that can restrict

19:33

drag performances in the state of Tennessee

19:36

is overly broad and vague

19:38

in that there's a lot of definitions

19:41

in the Tennessee code that are just not

19:44

given. For example, the

19:46

phrase that catches eyes about that

19:48

bill is male and female impersonator. That's

19:51

actually been in the Tennessee code since the

19:54

1990s, but has never had a solid

19:56

definition. So let's say, for example,

19:59

a transgender, person who identifies

20:01

as like a man or like

20:03

me for example let's say that I'm a trans man

20:06

and I go down the street and

20:08

I'm wearing

20:10

masculine clothing but as someone

20:12

who's like publicly and openly transgender

20:14

I can be seen as a male impersonator

20:17

because I'm in public and on a sidewalk

20:20

where kids could potentially see me even

20:22

if I'm in my own home and have a

20:24

window open and someone sees

20:26

me

20:27

that could mean I could get charged

20:29

with a class A misdemeanor

20:32

or if I get a repeat offense it's a

20:34

class E felony for repeat offenses yeah

20:37

so it definitely along

20:39

with other bills that we're seeing in the Tennessee

20:41

legislature one being codifying

20:44

the definition of sex and the Senate

20:46

seat code it definitely shows

20:48

that they have a specific and

20:51

strict angle towards the trans community

20:53

and even with a health care

20:55

ban for minors they are forcing minors

20:57

to go through physical changes

21:00

that they don't want and that will affect them

21:02

into adulthood as well if we are

21:04

forcing people to go through a puberty

21:07

that they

21:08

do not align with or will bring

21:10

them a lot of suffering it will

21:12

create permanent changes to their body regardless

21:16

right

21:16

you work with families

21:19

affected by this and I wonder

21:21

how often you encounter well-meaning

21:23

parents who

21:26

are genuinely struggling with their

21:28

kids gender journeys and who

21:31

hear about these laws and think well

21:34

that makes sense to me that's

21:36

parental rights that's parental oversight

21:40

what

21:41

what do you or what would you say

21:43

to those those parents yeah

21:46

I think the major point I want to hit on

21:49

is that the majority of

21:51

major medical associations whether it

21:53

be the American terminology Association

21:56

or the American Medical Association

21:58

all disagree with the

21:59

blanket ban on gender-affirming care.

22:02

I would also heavily point

22:04

to the fact that this is a very well-researched

22:07

and long-term specific

22:10

area of medicine and that

22:13

listening to your doctors is imperative,

22:16

right? Because any doctor who

22:18

has a lot of knowledge but research in this area

22:20

is able to give you the best advice moving forward.

22:24

But with the Tennessee legislature stepping in in

22:27

this way, it kind of just completely

22:29

blocks off. Any sort of parental right or

22:31

choice or private decision

22:34

that could be made between a child, their parent,

22:36

and a medical professional. Because it just goes

22:38

and steps in in this huge government

22:41

overreach move of just saying that even

22:44

though we've been told time and again that this

22:46

is very well medically researched, we're

22:48

going to take away this option altogether.

22:51

So I would say that this is a complete

22:54

robbery of parental rights in

22:56

a way rather than something that gives

22:59

those two a parent. Let's

23:01

hear from some callers. Let's go to Luke in

23:03

upstate New York. Luke, welcome to

23:06

the show. Yeah, thanks for doing this.

23:08

I just wanted to chime in here that

23:11

my child, he's a young adult,

23:16

his life was probably saved. And

23:18

definitely his quality of life was really

23:20

improved because of gender-affirming care.

23:23

And

23:24

the fact that people in

23:26

these legislature hate

23:30

the rights of these

23:33

parents and these young people who

23:35

are trying to figure out exactly

23:39

how to live their best lives is

23:42

anti-liberty, it's anti-American.

23:45

And how

23:47

is this sort of political moment that we're

23:49

hearing about, how is that impacting your son

23:52

or yourself? You're in upstate New York.

23:54

This is not a state that has passed any of these

23:56

laws, but you're living in this political moment.

24:00

Well, my son lives in another state now,

24:03

and there is no legislative

24:06

threat against him at

24:08

this point, and probably

24:10

won't be, but he

24:13

has friends who are impacted by

24:15

this, colleagues, and

24:19

the whole thing, what

24:22

happens when you cross state lines? What if

24:24

you need to get a prescription

24:27

filled with a pharmacy if you are working for

24:29

a month or two someplace else? It's

24:32

ridiculous, and so

24:35

we are in a safe space, I guess,

24:37

but at what point do

24:40

our no space is safe?

24:42

Thanks for calling, Luke. Let's

24:44

go to Lisa in Minnesota.

24:47

Lisa, welcome to the show. Hey.

24:50

Hello. I just want to say thank you

24:53

for bringing forward all these concerns from

24:55

across the nation, because I think there's

24:57

a lot of perspectives to represent.

25:00

And how is it showing up in your life? Well,

25:04

you know, living in Minnesota, we think

25:06

that we don't have, you know, lack

25:08

of safety as trans families. A

25:12

16-year-old who was assigned female at birth

25:14

has been going through a transition, happily

25:18

got on to testosterone, and that's

25:20

been very helpful, but inside

25:22

of the journey, we've had to change care

25:24

providers, because at

25:27

the start of our journey, there was the

25:30

overturn of Roe v. Wade

25:32

took out one of our referral sources, and

25:35

now, which is a major

25:38

university medical system, has diverted

25:40

all of the referrals to Mayo

25:43

and to children's

25:45

hospitals. And so, you

25:48

know, it's like we've already got limits

25:51

going on in our state, even though we're

25:53

very much protected by our governor. You

25:56

know, that doesn't mean that

25:58

healthcare resources... can't make

26:00

those decisions

26:01

too. Yeah, there's an echo effect. Thank

26:04

you for adding that to the conversation, Lisa. Let's

26:06

do one more call and then we'll have you react to some

26:08

of this, Henry. Let's go to Annabelle

26:11

in Pittsburgh. Annabelle, welcome to the show.

26:14

Hello, thank you. Just a quick

26:17

side note. My name is Ann, an A-N-N-O-N.

26:20

But I just wanted to, no, it's all good, it's all

26:23

good. It's kind of hard over the phone, but I

26:25

just wanted to put in my two senses, a

26:27

non-binary and trans person

26:30

who identifies as trans individual. I'm 22,

26:33

I'm soon to be graduating college.

26:37

I'm in a program that looks at environmental

26:39

sustainability. And I see

26:41

this as a future where I could possibly travel

26:44

a lot and be able to help a lot of people. But

26:46

I also fear for my

26:48

peers, people in other

26:49

countries who

26:52

won't be able to live to their

26:54

fullest extent because they're being repressed

26:57

in such a way. It's just very heartbreaking. And

26:59

I'm fortunate enough that at my age

27:02

and my location, I've been able to pursue

27:05

various forms of gender affirming care that have

27:07

made my life so much

27:10

more comfortable and enjoyable.

27:12

And I just, it

27:15

truly pains me to hear about

27:18

the discrimination and just the terrible

27:21

ideas that are coming forward with no

27:23

scientific basis.

27:24

So yeah. Thank

27:26

you for that. Thank you for that. Yeah.

27:29

Henry. Thank you. Henry, in all three of

27:31

those calls, anything that jumped out to you that you want to

27:33

comment on?

27:34

Yeah, I really appreciate

27:36

the point being brought up about the

27:39

overturn of Roe v. Wade, because just like

27:41

how we saw a balloon and abortion

27:43

appointments needing to be made in places like

27:45

California, Oregon, because

27:48

that option was taken away in

27:50

states like Tennessee, for example. It's

27:53

kind of the same way with gender affirming care, right?

27:55

Because it's being restricted in so many areas,

27:58

it will require people to be able to, to

28:00

go out of state to receive their care. So

28:02

this will have that echo effect that you mentioned

28:05

of having an impact on basically everyone,

28:08

right? Because it will make it to where it's

28:10

harder to get appointments not just for people

28:13

in these states where it's banned, but for people

28:15

in states where it's not banned, where people have

28:17

had to flee to. You know, I hear from families

28:19

all the time that have fled to areas

28:21

like Chicago or New York. Because

28:25

in Tennessee, we've restricted gender-affirming care

28:27

and because we don't know what the future of that

28:29

can look

28:29

like for parents, you know, there was originally,

28:32

or rather no, there was an amendment

28:35

on the bill at one point that would have

28:37

defined gender-affirming care as child abuse.

28:39

Fortunately, it was taken away,

28:42

but who knows when that could come back again, you

28:44

know what I mean? So this will kind

28:46

of have that echo effect where

28:49

it will just ripple out to the entirety

28:52

of the nation, it seems. And

28:54

as someone who received gender-affirming care

28:56

as a minor, I was 17 when I

28:59

received my first dose of testosterone here

29:01

in Tennessee. It's

29:04

like safe to say that this saved my

29:06

life as well. I know that a lot of people

29:08

have said the same thing, you

29:09

know. I was unsuccessful

29:13

in treating my mental health

29:15

disorders until I was able to

29:17

kind of build the foundation that testosterone

29:20

set down for me. Because I was able to look in the

29:22

mirror and see myself, I

29:24

could only then be able to see a

29:26

future and try to work around

29:29

being able to

29:31

live into myself because

29:33

I actually had a sense of self for

29:35

once in my life, you know. So

29:38

it's really heartbreaking to hear all

29:41

of the people that are nervous or

29:43

scared, but it's

29:45

also really important to be realistic about how this

29:47

impacts the entirety of the nation. And as

29:49

these continue to pass, it will just make

29:52

it worse and worse for all of us, not

29:54

just some of us.

29:55

In about a minute, we have to take

29:58

a break, but earlier in the show when I was talking to him, about

30:01

the history of this movement,

30:04

and we talked about social contagion. That

30:07

idea, how often was that part of the debate in

30:10

passing the bill in Tennessee?

30:13

Quite often, it was

30:15

that in tandem with what we called comorbidities,

30:18

quote unquote. So it would be

30:21

trans people have autism or depression or anxiety

30:23

that will inhibit their ability to

30:26

kind of discern a sense of self, when

30:28

we know that that is just inherently incorrect

30:31

and that this kind of idea of rapid

30:33

onset, gender dysphoria, which

30:35

is a phrase that I've heard for this social contagion

30:38

is inherently false, right? But

30:40

it is a huge talking point because it

30:42

kind of strikes

30:43

into that fear. It taps into

30:45

that fear of being like, it's not

30:47

just these children who live in these big

30:49

cities. It can be your child and your conservative

30:52

family too. We got to

30:54

take a break. I'm talking with Henry Seaton, a

30:56

trans justice advocate for the ACLU of Tennessee.

30:59

When we come back, Mara Jones of Translash

31:01

Media will rejoin our conversation. We'll

31:03

talk about the road forward and we will take more

31:06

of your calls. So stay with us.

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32:04

It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright.

32:07

We're talking about the surge in bills targeting

32:09

transgender people moving through state legislatures

32:11

around the country. And we're still taking

32:14

your calls if you or your family member

32:16

has been affected by this kind of legislation

32:18

in your state or if you've been affected

32:20

by just this broader political moment. I

32:23

am still joined by Henry Seton, who is the trans

32:25

justice advocate of the ACLU of

32:27

Tennessee, which has become the most recent

32:30

state to ban or limit access to gender-affirming

32:32

care for minors. And Amara

32:34

Jones is also back with us. Her podcast,

32:36

The Anti-Trans Hate Machine, is just

32:38

about to launch its second season. It's

32:41

produced by Translash Media, which Amara

32:43

founded. And Amara,

32:46

one of the things I do want to say that

32:48

I really enjoy about Translash is

32:51

that so much of the work you do

32:53

is rooted in the joy and celebration

32:56

of trans communities. And

32:58

I do want to bring that into this conversation because

33:01

it seems to me we are also in

33:04

a remarkable

33:04

moment in which the trans community has

33:07

asserted, if you will, we're here where trans

33:09

get used to it. Oh,

33:14

I think Amara's muted. Oh, there we

33:16

go. Oh, OK. I

33:19

mean, I think that the fascinating

33:22

thing is that both things are happening at the same time.

33:25

And it reminds me, someone else mentioned this

33:27

to me, that it very much reminds

33:29

me of the time of the Harlem

33:31

Renaissance, where you have

33:34

extreme oppression

33:36

and you have extreme creativity

33:39

that rippled out for

33:41

generations and continues to. And I really

33:43

do think that that's akin to what's happening in trans

33:46

communities, especially black trans communities. I

33:48

mean, the sheer range

33:52

of creativity and places

33:54

that trans people are showing up right

33:56

now is really powerful in the way

33:58

that trans people are advancing. culture

34:01

and science and

34:04

very ideas about community, I think,

34:06

are going to ripple out for a really long time. And

34:09

so, anti-trans hate machine is a really important

34:11

part of our work, but as

34:13

you say, the vast amount of our work

34:15

actually is about lifting

34:17

up all of those other stories that are going

34:19

on in our community. And

34:22

so, both are happening at the same time. Henry,

34:25

are you seeing that in Tennessee as well? I mean, and

34:27

if so, how is it visible to you there?

34:30

Yeah, definitely. I

34:32

think one of the things I wanted

34:34

to kind of highlight is just,

34:37

I mean, wow, that

34:39

was just like so on point. It's kind of hard

34:43

to say. I

34:46

need to say. Well, if I could prod you, one thing

34:48

that I've heard you say in the past is

34:51

that you've seen a real outpouring

34:53

of people standing up to fight that

34:57

is an increase from what you

35:00

saw in the past as an organizer. Is

35:02

that fair to say?

35:03

Yeah, definitely. And I think in

35:06

talking with other ACLU affiliates as

35:08

well, a lot of other states are the same

35:10

way, right? So, this is kind of a national movement

35:13

of people seeing what's happening

35:15

and being really, really worked up

35:17

by it. Because for me personally, this

35:20

is not a legislative session

35:22

that I've seen anything like ever

35:25

really. This is kind of some of the most vile

35:27

and hateful legislation that we

35:29

do see year after year, but this

35:31

time it has so much more momentum

35:33

behind it because of how prominent

35:36

this movement has become over time.

35:39

But with that, in tandem with that

35:41

is like the queer community

35:43

in Tennessee at least, and I know a lot

35:45

of other states as well from conversations

35:48

that I've had, is really showing

35:50

up and showing out as a result. Because

35:54

a lot of people are seeing how dangerous

35:57

it is to be trans in Tennessee

35:59

right now.

35:59

be publicly trans and speak out for yourself,

36:02

right? So

36:03

allies have come up and decided

36:06

to bring their voices forward to protect

36:08

the trans people and their lives. So we've

36:10

also seen in

36:12

Tennessee, Vanderbilt

36:14

University's medical center has been under

36:17

specific talk. So because

36:20

of those doctors having

36:22

their addresses published online

36:24

and having to do only like telehealth

36:28

services because of bomb threats

36:30

at the Vanderbilt campus, a

36:33

lot of people have come

36:33

up to support those. And

36:36

then with that, financial contributions

36:39

have also kind of skyrocketed here, which is really

36:41

great for our locally based organizations

36:44

to do their work.

36:45

Let's hear some for some more callers. Let's

36:47

go to A. in Trenton, New Jersey.

36:49

A, welcome to the show. Thanks

36:52

for having me. I'm really glad that

36:54

you just brought up the idea of trans joy. I'm

36:58

an adult that came into my non-binary

37:00

trans identity late in life. And

37:03

it was literally the best thing I had ever heard.

37:06

It was a euphoric moment reading the definitions

37:08

of what it actually meant to be transgender and to

37:11

be non-binary. And I very naively

37:13

thought like, everybody would be

37:15

equally as happy and euphoric

37:18

about this idea of gender identity being

37:20

more diverse and

37:22

being more comfortable to somebody that did

37:24

not fit the binary. So it's very

37:26

bewildering and strange to

37:29

have this increasingly

37:32

polarizing rhetoric really

37:34

demonized the best thing that's ever happened

37:36

to me. And I really worry about trans

37:38

youth who are kind of the

37:40

first generation to be able to have

37:42

all this wonderful visibility and the

37:44

ability to really understand who they are at a young

37:46

age and not waste a huge

37:49

chunk of their life not understanding themselves

37:51

and how people are perceiving them. And then

37:53

also I worry about our trans elders who

37:56

also are now feeling comfortable coming out and

37:59

understanding themselves. after so many decades

38:02

being perceived incorrectly and thinking

38:04

about going into assisted living

38:06

or being dependent on family members who

38:08

may not understand who they are. So

38:11

it's like this very weird disconnect between

38:14

the joy and happiness that I feel, understanding

38:17

myself and knowing that other trans and gender

38:19

nonconforming people can finally like

38:21

see themselves and be seen, but

38:23

then also in sharing their stories

38:26

in this time of visibility with the lack of understanding

38:29

from cisgender people, you

38:31

know, having to kind of tiptoe around and not

38:34

knowing like when and where they can celebrate

38:36

themselves and celebrate with each other. Yeah,

38:39

so it's very strange at the strange time.

38:41

Thank you for adding that, and

38:44

it really underlines Amara's point about that there's

38:46

two things happening at the same time, and

38:48

it's very difficult to process that

38:50

for a lot of us. Let's

38:52

go to Elle in northern Minnesota. Elle,

38:55

welcome to the show. Hi,

38:58

thank you.

39:00

The big thing that these new

39:02

laws

39:03

really highlight is that, you know,

39:07

these feelings towards

39:09

trans people, I mean, they

39:12

have always been underlying,

39:14

I think, for a good amount of the

39:16

population. But I also

39:18

think that in the current day,

39:20

there is such a

39:23

magnification of it almost, in

39:26

that you have a minority

39:28

of people. I do believe it's a minority of people who

39:30

don't accept, you

39:33

know, me and other trans people in this country, but

39:36

who are speaking so loudly

39:39

that they are actually starting to have

39:41

an impact.

39:42

And

39:46

it's to an extent that these

39:48

laws are being passed, obviously, but it's also

39:50

to an extent that I think it is definitely scaring

39:52

some people, which

39:55

obviously, yes, that is the intent.

39:58

But a lot of people, I think, are going to be a little

39:59

bit more

39:59

of people will point to like survivor

40:02

bias and things as why so

40:05

many trans people are coming out now because they

40:07

see it as safer than in

40:09

the previous time. You

40:11

know even 10 years

40:13

ago it was dramatically less safe to

40:16

come out than it is now but

40:19

I'm worried that so many people

40:21

who are you know won't

40:23

understand who they are and won't discover

40:26

who they are because they won't even think

40:28

it's possible just because of all

40:30

these laws and all this rhetoric.

40:32

Can I ask you Elle, I

40:36

gather you mentioned to our

40:38

producer that you spoke to that you

40:40

have not come out to your family

40:43

as trans and I wonder how this

40:45

moment

40:46

shapes that choice for

40:48

you. Well

40:50

I didn't exactly knock him out to my

40:52

family what I said was I'm not out publicly.

40:56

My family is very supportive unfortunately

40:59

despite the fact that I live in Minnesota

41:03

a state which I am extremely proud of

41:05

for its legalization

41:07

and protection of queer rights

41:09

you know

41:10

I live in a community that is unfortunately

41:13

not nearly as much of a liberal Baskin

41:16

as the Twin Cities and I hear

41:19

things you know obviously

41:21

I live in a pretty small town so

41:24

it's not representative of the whole population

41:26

you know

41:26

it's a farming town but

41:29

you hear things and you feel

41:32

feel dramatically less safe because

41:36

you know how people really feel about that obviously

41:40

if you're out and about you know there's

41:42

the whole Minnesota nice thing you we

41:44

don't tend to tell people you know

41:47

if we don't approve of what they're doing but

41:49

when they don't know

41:51

they they say they feel comfortable

41:53

enough to say things and that inherently

41:56

makes me feel less safe. Thank

42:00

you for sharing that Elle, I really appreciate

42:02

it. And Amara, I

42:04

wanna pick up on something Elle said about

42:06

there's a minority of people who are really

42:09

loud and

42:11

a lot of the work you

42:13

are doing in the anti-trans hate machine

42:15

is documenting how they got so loud. And

42:19

what is the structure behind that? So I just kinda wanna

42:21

hear you react to that point and

42:25

what is the megaphone that

42:27

is making that point if

42:30

Elle is correct that this is a minority

42:32

of people who support this kind of legislation,

42:35

what is the megaphone for them?

42:38

Right, I mean, I would

42:40

say that there are a minority of people who are loud,

42:43

but I think that there is

42:46

a sizable minority perhaps even a majority

42:48

of people who are unsure about trans people,

42:51

who what I call soft

42:53

transphobia.

42:56

And I think that what happens

42:59

is that through the entire

43:01

infrastructure they built, the

43:04

hope is to convert as many

43:06

of those people who are

43:08

soft transphobes into being active

43:10

transphobes. So I think that

43:12

we have to realize that we live in a transphobic

43:14

society, transphobia is the default in

43:17

the country. And so it's all about

43:19

how we're responding to

43:22

changing, answering transphobia

43:24

that is really powerful here.

43:27

And the right has done a lot

43:29

of research over the years to try to

43:31

figure out how to do that.

43:34

I think that what we have to

43:37

understand is that there's an entire infrastructure.

43:39

I mean, I think that one of the things that we did in

43:41

season one was to detail the

43:45

state organizations, the national organizations,

43:47

the billionaires, the

43:50

think tanks, the religious ideology,

43:53

the religious institutions and

43:56

the politicians

43:56

that are all working in

43:58

concert to. these bills.

44:01

It is an entire infrastructure that

44:03

we have to understand it. And you know

44:05

that

44:06

it's an infrastructure because somehow

44:09

they have managed to make a

44:11

group of people who are one and a half percent

44:13

of the population into one of the top

44:16

three points of discussion

44:18

of political life in America. And you

44:21

don't get there by accident. That shows

44:23

you how powerful they are. And

44:25

I think what we're doing this season is talking about

44:27

how parallel to that they've

44:29

built an entire disinformation ecosystem

44:33

that has found its way not only into

44:36

right wing and Christian nationalist media, which we would expect,

44:39

but also into the broader media mainstream.

44:42

And so one of the things that the right understands is that

44:44

because they have minority views

44:47

that they have to try to build majoritarian

44:49

structures that will allow those views

44:52

to become the default position in

44:56

political life. And that's what

44:58

we have to understand. That there's nothing

45:00

that's accidental about this conversation

45:02

and that I know that

45:04

for me the more that I understand

45:07

about how the right wing works and how they

45:09

have put this conversation

45:12

at the center of national life, the

45:14

more alarmed I've become.

45:17

I want to sneak in one more call. We're getting

45:19

short on time, but I've really enjoyed hearing from our listeners

45:21

on this. Deb in Minneapolis.

45:24

Deb,

45:25

welcome to the show. Hi,

45:25

thank you so much for taking my

45:28

call. I have two things to say really quickly.

45:30

First of all, my ex is trans.

45:32

I have two kids who are trans. I am an educator.

45:35

I am also an activist. And 30

45:38

years ago I was a conservative right wing

45:40

Christian. I obviously am

45:42

not anymore, but I have lots of connections

45:45

in religious communities. And I am

45:47

putting it out there all the time that the things that they

45:49

are hearing from people who are

45:51

trying to make these laws are not

45:54

true. And that trans people are not

45:56

a danger. And second, even though

45:58

I live in Minnesota, Thank god for

46:00

that. Uh, and we have laws that

46:02

protect the trans community It only

46:05

takes one election cycle to

46:07

tip the balance so I Advocate

46:11

all the time for get out and vote

46:13

get out and let people know That

46:15

there is nothing to fear from

46:17

the trans community because so

46:20

many of the religious people on the religious

46:22

right They operate from

46:24

a place of fear and ignorance

46:27

Thank you for that dub As

46:30

we're starting to wrap up here, we've got

46:32

a few minutes left, but yeah, I kind of Henry

46:36

I would put to

46:37

you. What is the big fear,

46:39

right? I mean, I think there's a lot of people

46:41

who are sort of on the sidelines of this conversation

46:44

um as uh, Ammar referred

46:47

to the to the soft transphobes.

46:49

I think there might also be some soft trans

46:51

allies, you know That are like

46:53

well, what's the big deal? Why is everybody afraid? I don't

46:55

have anything to worry about in in your life What

46:58

what is in your experience? What do you think you believe

47:01

that is that has triggered people

47:03

so Who literally don't want

47:05

trans kids in tennessee

47:06

to exist?

47:08

Yeah, that's a great question I think

47:10

about it every day and if I had like the best solution

47:12

ever I would definitely say it but I think um

47:15

It's kind of it's something that's been built

47:18

upon like generation after generation, right? Like

47:20

amara has already discussed, but I think it

47:22

even goes back further Um

47:24

because tennessee has always been kind of this like

47:27

reactive state where they don't

47:29

think something is a problem until they hear

47:31

it Introduced to them as a

47:33

problem and then they know it's a problem

47:35

if that makes sense So people don't

47:37

know to think that gender-affirming care is a

47:39

problem until it gets introduced

47:41

to them that way And then it becomes

47:44

something that they become really passionate about. You

47:46

know what I mean? This is something that goes

47:48

back. You know tennessee being um, A

47:51

former confederate state a

47:53

former segregationist state. It already

47:56

starts with this like fear of exposure

47:59

to people

49:59

Kusha Navadar and Lindsay Foster

50:02

Thomas. Andre Robert Lee

50:04

is our executive producer, and I'm Kai Wright.

50:06

Thanks for hanging out.