0:00

WNYC Studios is supported

0:02

by Amazon Music. Amazon

0:04

Music now offers Prime members the largest

0:06

catalog of ad-free top podcasts.

0:09

You can listen to shows like Death, Sex, and Money,

0:11

Radiolab, and On the Media, ad-free

0:14

on the Amazon Music app. On this Radiolab,

0:16

two scientists make a discovery that breaks

0:19

a rule of life on Earth in a colony

0:21

of seagulls and makes us humans wonder,

0:23

what does this mean for us? The

0:25

seagulls from Radiolab. Listen

0:28

wherever you get podcasts.

0:36

Listener supported, WNYC

0:39

Studios.

0:49

It's Notes from America, I'm Kai Wright. I

0:52

often tell people there is no licensing

0:55

process to become a journalist. Yes, you can

0:57

go to school and get degrees and all the rest, but

0:59

nobody appoints you a journalist. The

1:02

First Amendment makes it possible, and from there,

1:04

the whole business rests on a

1:06

three-pronged relationship between those

1:08

of us who call ourselves journalists,

1:11

the sources we turn to for information, and the

1:13

people to whom we offer our work, which

1:15

is to say you, dear listener. It's

1:18

all about your trust that we are acting

1:20

independently with integrity and thoroughness

1:23

on your behalf.

1:24

Or that's how I understand it anyway. And

1:28

it is no big newsflash for me to tell you that this trust

1:30

between journalists and our potential readers,

1:33

listeners, and viewers has eroded substantially.

1:35

Or at least, that's what public opinion

1:38

polls tell us, which are yet another source of information

1:40

that fewer of us trust these days. So

1:43

for the rest of this hour, I wanna get a vibe

1:45

check from the listeners of this particular show

1:47

about your relationship with journalists. And

1:50

I'm firstly interested in those of you who

1:52

have experienced some kind of change.

1:55

If you trust journalism less

1:57

than you once did,

1:59

why? Or if you come to trust

2:01

us more, if you've deepened

2:03

your relationship with your primary news outlet,

2:05

whatever that is,

2:06

why? What happened for you? And

2:09

as we sort through your calls, I'm joined

2:11

by host and managing editor of On

2:13

The Media, Brooke Gladstone. Hey, Brooke.

2:16

Hey there, Kai. So Brooke,

2:18

I have asked you to come help me with this

2:20

conversation because you have been

2:23

in this relationship with listeners

2:25

and readers for a very long time now. On

2:28

The Media alone, you have been hosting a weekly

2:31

conversation for more than 20 years.

2:33

How do you understand? 20 years. It's,

2:36

you know, so how do you how do you understand your relationship

2:38

with listeners? What's what is the social contract

2:40

for you?

2:41

Well, being somebody

2:43

who is on a show, a show that talks

2:47

regularly to people on

2:49

behalf of listeners, I feel like the

2:51

listener surrogate. I feel very

2:54

strongly that I should ask

2:56

the questions that the listeners have

2:58

in their minds, that I don't pretend

3:01

to be smarter than my listeners,

3:03

nor less informed than my

3:05

listeners. I have to consider them to be

3:09

curious and engaged, but

3:11

like me, not a know-it-all

3:13

on every subject. And to

3:16

be able to provide that. I also think it's important

3:18

to provide context, a bit of history,

3:22

and certainly an important primary

3:25

discussion of the stakes.

3:26

And so your obligation

3:28

to your listeners is to be their

3:31

surrogate, to be on the level with them. That's

3:33

really the that's the relationship you're saying.

3:36

We're on a level together. Yes. And

3:38

how do you feel about the state

3:41

of the social contract between journalists

3:43

and the communities we serve overall right now? And

3:45

you know, and I'm I'm not talking about data or anything

3:47

like that. I just mean as someone who has invested so

3:49

much personally, right, over such a long

3:51

time in this kind of relationship. Just

3:54

where do you

3:54

think it stands right now? I

3:57

want you to tell me what you mean by social

3:59

contract.

3:59

or simply

4:02

about credibility, because the

4:04

social contract is what

4:06

we sign up to do. And

4:09

I guess the other side of it is how is

4:11

it received? And I think

4:14

that the social contract for me remains

4:16

the same, but our reception

4:18

of course, continues to

4:20

struggle and

4:23

has for many years. It

4:26

went up shortly after Watergate, and

4:29

then it's been on

4:29

a more or less continuous decline

4:32

ever since. A continuous decline you think?

4:34

Pretty much with a few peaks

4:37

and valleys, and they are

4:39

interesting. A good peak

4:41

during Katrina, for instance,

4:44

a valley during the run up

4:47

to the second Gulf War. Let's

4:50

look at Katrina. Why such

4:52

a peak? Because let's face it, the

4:54

reporting on Hurricane Katrina

4:57

was crappy as hell

5:00

in many regards, because

5:03

reporters were very fixed

5:06

on the reports of law enforcement, and

5:08

law enforcement weren't always where they were

5:10

supposed to be, and basically picked

5:13

up and repeated

5:13

rumor. And

5:15

so you heard about all sorts of horrors

5:17

happening in New Orleans, and

5:20

people, if they only cared about

5:23

truth and accuracy, should have been

5:25

really mad at the media, but

5:27

they weren't. Why weren't they? Because

5:30

the media were expressing

5:33

how they felt, the outrage,

5:36

the fury, the

5:38

anger at the federal government for doing

5:41

so little to prevent what

5:43

happened or to address the consequence

5:45

of what happened. You know, you have Anderson

5:47

Cooper and many others yelling at authorities,

5:50

and that felt so

5:52

good. And that is

5:54

the fundamental relationship, as

5:57

opposed to the social, there is a social

5:59

contract.

5:59

We think it's to report fairly

6:02

and accurately and with

6:05

principle. And that's where we might get

6:07

into trouble because people's values

6:09

are different across the board. But fundamentally,

6:12

if you look at the polls, what

6:15

the listeners and the readers and viewers

6:17

care about is seeing themselves

6:20

reflected. And the more

6:22

that they are reflected,

6:24

the better they like the media.

6:27

In the run up to the war, there was criticism.

6:29

This was, there was a big peak at

6:32

9-11 and then a great decline

6:35

where reporters were considered to be

6:38

anti-American and poor

6:40

patriots because they questioned the

6:42

bases of that war or to the

6:44

extent

6:45

that they questioned the bases

6:47

of that war. They didn't do it a whole heck

6:49

of a lot, but to the extent they

6:51

did it at all, they were

6:54

ripe for attack across

6:56

a nascent right wing media that

6:59

used a long standing canard about

7:02

biased media that began with think

7:04

tanks during the Nixon administration to

7:07

put everybody in the corner.

7:15

So that's Brooks' take. Coming up, we'll

7:17

hear what some of you

7:18

think. Stay with us. In

7:20

the abortion case that overturned Roe versus

7:23

Wade, one word kept coming up.

7:40

Byability. That basic viability

7:42

line. I'm Julia Longoria, host

7:45

of More Perfect from WNYC

7:47

Studios.

7:47

This week, the story of

7:50

the viability line and the men

7:52

who came up with the idea. How

7:58

it went on to transform American culture.

9:59

seen that image, you know, on the front

10:02

front of the paper, but I should every

10:04

single time it happens, because

10:07

that's what inspires, you

10:09

know,

10:10

real visceral reactions

10:12

is is not this, you

10:15

know, there's nothing we can do, hoo-ha, just

10:17

move on with with realism.

10:19

You want to, this sounds like what Brooke

10:22

was talking about. You want to really see us reflect

10:25

what you're experiencing as opposed

10:27

to trying to sugarcoat

10:29

it. Evan, thank you for that. I'm

10:32

going to keep going because we've got a bunch of folks I want to get

10:34

to. Let's go to Joel in St. Paul, Minnesota.

10:36

Joel, welcome to the show.

10:39

Hello. Yeah, my name is Joel

10:41

from St. Paul. I happen to be a family physician

10:44

and I've been a strong supporter

10:47

of NPR and the news

10:49

media. I do have a certain level of trust,

10:52

however, I would say this,

10:54

that I

10:55

think that trust has been questioned a lot

10:57

in recent times, mainly

10:59

because of what the last caller said about

11:02

social media platforms have become so

11:05

pervasive everywhere, streaming

11:07

digital, that people really don't know

11:10

what to trust anymore. There's too much information.

11:12

I'm a little older. I go

11:14

back to before the internet days and

11:17

I find it very difficult to navigate

11:20

through media. So I don't like to use words

11:22

like right and left anymore. I just don't

11:24

think they apply that easily. I think people

11:26

are much more confused about

11:28

what that even means anymore. I would love to

11:31

see the media sort of

11:34

be a more positive force in trying to

11:37

navigate all of that information that's

11:39

out there that people want to, people tend to

11:41

go to sources of information that they want

11:43

to believe. They don't necessarily

11:46

know what to trust, I

11:48

think. And I think it's a big problem. I think it's a really

11:50

big issue and I'm glad you have that topic.

11:52

Thank you for that, Joel. So too

11:55

much coming at us too fast, particularly since

11:57

social media. Let's

11:59

go to one more.

11:59

before we talk a little bit about this, Brooke.

12:02

Let's go to Barbara in Hartford County,

12:04

Connecticut. Barbara, welcome to the show.

12:08

Hi. How

12:11

you doing, Barbara? So what do you want to share

12:13

with us? So

12:16

I think I'm not the normal

12:18

person here because my trust

12:20

in the media has actually gone up a little

12:23

bit recently.

12:24

Now I was, for

12:26

context, I was raised by a Vietnam

12:29

veteran.

12:30

Who taught me not to trust the

12:32

media.

12:32

Like my whole life

12:34

growing up, I heard about how the

12:36

media lies. And when Fox

12:39

News became a citizen, my parents were so excited

12:42

because finally there was someone out there that wasn't going

12:44

to lie to them. Ironically, isn't that?

12:48

But so I was raised not to trust

12:50

any of y'all. I was raised to think y'all

12:53

are liars. And so I've

12:54

learned over the years when

12:56

I'm reading the news, how to try

12:59

and pull the facts out and leave the opinions to the side.

13:02

And that's gotten a lot easier recently because

13:05

people aren't even trying to hide their bias

13:07

anymore. But ironically,

13:11

when Trump became president and started fake

13:13

news, fake news, everybody, they're all

13:15

fake news.

13:16

It's like the

13:19

media took it, at least the major media

13:22

took it to heart and got

13:24

more interested in the facts again

13:27

and less in the opinion.

13:28

That we were snapped to attention by

13:30

the crisis of the Trump. Right, right.

13:32

It was like, oh, you're gonna call us liars? No, we're not.

13:35

We'll prove it. So

13:38

my trust has gone up a little bit now because

13:41

I see how hard you

13:44

are trying to be to be accurate. And

13:47

of course I have the ability

13:51

to read through

13:52

the opinions, even when I'm reading stuff isn't

13:55

trying to be as unbiased as possible.

13:58

Thank you for that, Barbara. And Brooke,

14:01

so

14:01

a lot that came up in just those three calls, Vietnam

14:04

keeps coming up.

14:06

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. There

14:08

was a dominant narrative that was put

14:10

out by people in

14:12

the military and by politicians,

14:15

particularly Ronald Reagan, but many others,

14:18

that the media lost that war.

14:20

That is not the case. The

14:23

media, according to a military

14:25

analysis, found that

14:28

by the time Walter Cronkite

14:31

said we were mired in stalemate,

14:33

which was considered to be

14:35

the big turning point,

14:37

polls had showed the public had already turned

14:39

against the war because the number of

14:41

casualties had gone up

14:44

to a particular level. And

14:46

at that level, then suddenly

14:48

the support for the war

14:51

tapered off. It is true that the media

14:54

had been pretty pro the

14:57

Vietnam War initially, and then

14:59

gradually learned that they were being

15:01

lied to, demonstrably

15:04

lied to. I mean, this is what the Pentagon

15:06

papers were

15:07

proved beyond the

15:09

shadow of a doubt. So

15:12

it wasn't the media. The media

15:14

were maybe a little bit ahead

15:17

of the public, but

15:19

the turning point came when

15:21

a certain level of casualties

15:24

was met and not because

15:26

of the media coverage. It wasn't Walter

15:28

Cronkite saying we were

15:31

mired in stalemate and couldn't be

15:33

one. It was.

15:34

It was too many people experiencing

15:36

death in their own lives. Moved by

15:38

reality. And that's

15:41

the only thing that will change minds now because

15:43

of the lack of belief in facts.

15:45

But this brings me back to Evan,

15:47

the first caller, and who seemed to be saying

15:49

something very similar to the point

15:52

you're making about what you believe

15:55

your listeners and folks who consume

15:57

journalism want from us, this idea.

17:59

the audience will make that decision.

18:02

They'll go away if they

18:04

don't like what they're hearing, as apparently

18:07

happened in Fox when they

18:10

called the crucial state for

18:13

Trump and people suddenly

18:15

went to Newsmax.

18:16

Right, the audience will go away because

18:18

that is, in the end, again,

18:20

this is all rests on just

18:22

the question of whether or not the audience

18:25

thinks we're serving them or not. Last 20 seconds,

18:27

Brooke, what motivates you in this work? Like, why do you do

18:29

this? Well, I

18:32

know that I'm not gonna change anything immediately.

18:35

Reporters do this for a variety of reasons.

18:37

I feel incredibly curious.

18:40

I love being forced to engage

18:42

with the big issues of the day and

18:45

I strongly want to tell

18:48

people what

18:50

I believe is actually happening

18:53

out there. It's that simple for me.

18:55

And maybe change can happen from

18:57

that to make

18:59

the world we live in better. It sounds bland,

19:01

but it's true. It sounds stirring and

19:04

we will leave it there. Brooke Gladstone

19:06

is host of On The Media. Thank you

19:08

so much for this time. Notes

19:10

From America is a production of WNYC

19:12

Studios. Check us out wherever you get your podcasts.

19:15

I'm Kyrite. Thanks for hanging out tonight. Talk

19:18

to you next week.

19:19

Thanks for watching. I'll see you next week. Bye.

19:23

Bye. Bye. Bye.