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at jll.com slash podcast. Gerard Dumond will

1:00

never forget October 30, 2020. You

1:04

know, we had to go to the court.

1:06

My mother went, my sister went, my grandkids

1:08

went. And when I went to the courtroom

1:10

and they said that I was innocent,

1:14

it was a totally different feeling. It's

1:17

still like a cloud lift off my head, a

1:20

burden lift off of me, you know? October

1:23

30, 2020 was the day

1:25

that Dumond was exonerated for

1:28

a murder he never committed.

1:31

The exoneration came after he'd spent

1:33

29 and a half

1:35

years in prison. And

1:37

I was just so happy to

1:39

have to hear the district

1:42

attorney say, Mr. Dumond, we

1:44

apologize. Our office apologized to

1:46

you. Apologies

1:48

do not repair a life broken

1:51

by incarceration. Nor do they

1:53

return lost time with family, missed

1:55

opportunities, the means to support

1:57

oneself. So Dumond sued the

1:59

state. and City of New York, believing

2:01

justice would not be fully served until

2:03

they repaid some of what had been

2:05

taken from him. Once

2:08

I found not guilty, I'm not going to sit

2:10

here and lie. I was thinking about, I said,

2:12

yeah, now I'm gonna have some money. That's the

2:14

icing on the cake. The

2:17

lawsuit could potentially bring him millions

2:19

of dollars, but litigation is a

2:21

years-long process and DeMone, who had

2:23

next to nothing after leaving prison,

2:26

needed money to start his life immediately.

2:30

It was a very hard transition. I didn't

2:32

have no money, no stuff. And, you know,

2:34

I didn't have a car. It

2:36

took me a while to get to work. And,

2:38

you know, I was living with my mother. That's

2:41

when the financial sector stepped

2:43

in. This

2:46

is On Point. I'm Magna Chakrabarti.

2:49

Gerard DeMone was just 26 years old

2:51

when he went to prison in 1989.

2:55

He'd been convicted of the murder of Patrick

2:57

Hinkson and sentenced to 25 years to life.

3:00

At the time, DeMone was married and was

3:03

the father of young twins. Hinkson

3:06

had been shot in the head in a New

3:08

York City nightclub parking lot. But on

3:10

that night, March 23rd, 1987, DeMone wasn't at the club. He

3:15

wasn't even in the state of New York. Me

3:18

and my ex-wife and our mother, we

3:20

went on a trip to go to

3:22

church, a church journey, like, you know,

3:25

a revival in Donahueville, Georgia. And

3:27

we went down there. And I remember

3:30

clearly it was like around the time

3:32

of my birthday, on March. March

3:34

24th, just one day after the

3:36

shooting. And while we

3:39

was down there, you know, we took pictures. And,

3:41

you know, I was just down there having a

3:43

good time going to church and joining us out.

3:46

DeMone and his family returned home to

3:48

Brooklyn on March 25th. Almost

3:51

immediately, the police took him in

3:53

for questioning. They

3:55

questioned me in the present for about two days. They

3:57

said, well, they said they're saying you want to come

3:59

in. The club shot the guy in the club

4:01

with you. I said, no, that could not have

4:04

been me. I'm not two percent. I'm only one

4:06

person and I was out of space. DeMone

4:09

was confused, bewildered. Why

4:12

were the police accusing him? He'd been almost

4:14

a thousand miles away on the night of

4:16

Hinkson's death. Nevertheless,

4:19

he was charged with second-degree

4:22

murder. And when his trial began

4:24

in April of 1989, it

4:26

was clear that the prosecution's

4:28

case rested almost entirely on

4:30

one man, Francois Pierre.

4:34

Pierre had walked into a Brooklyn police

4:36

precinct three days after Hinkson's murder and

4:39

claimed he'd seen DeMone shoot Hinkson

4:41

after a disagreement over drug money.

4:44

No other witnesses could

4:46

corroborate Pierre's account and DeMone

4:48

denies all of it. And

4:51

I'm not going to be going to sit here and pretend

4:53

that I ever been a saint. Since I was

4:55

young, I always get in trouble. I'm a troubled soul,

4:58

you know? But I

5:00

want to be accountable for my actions and

5:03

pay for my crimes and shit that I did, not

5:05

that I didn't do. I didn't do

5:07

this. Still, the

5:09

jury found him guilty. Gerard

5:11

DeMone spent the next 29 and a

5:14

half years in prison. This

5:16

seems like my whole life was just gone, my

5:18

kids, whatever I was trying to do

5:20

to put them on the right path to be successful

5:23

in life, it was all going to be repeated

5:25

like on some, you know, child

5:27

going up with no father, the

5:31

mothers and drug addicts start hanging out

5:33

like the hangout party. Can't

5:35

nothing good come out of the situation

5:37

unless you have a strong family background,

5:40

somebody that's going to take over and, you know,

5:42

do your job for you. The job that I was

5:44

supposed to do was taken from me, you know? So

5:47

as a father, I should say. DeMone

5:52

maintained his innocence throughout his

5:54

incarceration, And after multiple

5:57

attempts, he was granted parole on

5:59

August 24th. Or two thousand

6:01

and sixteen. He hired a new

6:03

legal team after his release and

6:05

they determined that Demand had never

6:07

received a fair trial. Because prosecutors

6:09

had known that France was Pierre,

6:11

the only person to place demand

6:14

at the crime scene was both

6:16

a compromised, an illegitimate. Witness.

6:19

So. It was on October thirtieth,

6:21

two thousand and twenty that

6:23

Gerard Demand received a full

6:25

exoneration. He was fifty

6:27

five years old, had no. Work

6:29

experience, no college degree,

6:32

No money. He was

6:34

hoping his lawsuit against New York would

6:36

eventually bring him money, but in the

6:38

interim he had nothing. I

6:41

had to wait a long time enough build

6:43

an Arab. What? I wanted out

6:45

with a dream about are viable of

6:47

who does allow a low low job

6:49

or got a job is a good

6:51

would. I have a lotta. Expensive.

6:53

You know? Just

6:56

the thing that you know you you play

6:58

catch up with normally at that your belt

7:00

or. This. Is where Gerard

7:02

Damone story. Becomes more than the

7:04

infuriating story of a man wrongfully

7:07

incarcerated for decades. Still, that

7:09

is enough in itself. It

7:11

becomes a story about how

7:13

the financial sector has discovered

7:15

a lucrative new market in

7:17

the urgent financial needs. Alexon

7:19

Hurry this. Demand

7:24

was put in contact with a

7:26

company called Us Claims it's a

7:28

so called pre settlement lawsuit funding

7:30

company and it offered him a

7:32

three hundred thousand dollar advance while

7:34

he waited for his wrongful incarceration

7:37

cases to play out. For having.

7:39

Financial Freedom Brown you know you know

7:41

for a particular been a way to

7:43

log know you ain't gotta will live

7:45

Paycheck to Paycheck. Demand.

7:48

Moved out of his mother's place,

7:50

bought a new house, a new

7:52

Mercedes, and gave money to his

7:54

children whom he hadn't seen outside

7:56

prison walls in almost thirty years,

7:58

and who now have to. They have

8:00

their own. The advanced

8:02

carried terms that we're not unfavorable to

8:04

demand. He wouldn't have to begin making

8:07

repayments until after any settlement money was

8:09

granted, and if demand didn't win his

8:11

case against the city and state for

8:14

any reason, he would not have to

8:16

return a single penny to us. Claims

8:19

Know those terms mean

8:21

big risk for companies

8:23

granting. Fun steaks honorees so

8:25

for them ultra high interest.

8:28

Rates make the risk worth it.

8:30

In demands case, Us claims charged

8:33

him an annual interest rate of

8:35

thirty two percent. In

8:38

two thousand, Twenty two. Demand One and

8:40

eight point four million dollars settlement from

8:43

the state and city. Of New York

8:45

and he'd waited about two years for

8:47

the result. Is repayment

8:49

to Us claims was do immediately

8:52

along with an additional. One hundred

8:54

and Forty three thousand dollars in

8:56

interest. So is this

8:58

a story about predatory capitalism?

9:00

Exploiting the wronged and vulnerable.

9:03

With. Could be, but Gerard Demand

9:06

says it's much more complicated

9:08

than that. In his case,

9:10

it was the free. Market

9:12

that helps keep his head above

9:14

water as the state dragged his

9:16

heels towards financial justice. So

9:19

the mall says he was happy to

9:21

pay the thirty two percent interest because

9:24

getting that advanced upfront when he urgently

9:26

needed it. Was worth it. It's

9:29

up to you. You couldn't country the

9:31

live your life moderately and could get your

9:33

money or could get money again. You

9:35

pay back when you get your bread

9:37

or mean you don't have a choice.

9:39

Not on. Demand like you

9:41

know thread choice we made by. The.

9:44

Offered their in oil about it was

9:46

the armed kicked off for. That

9:51

to our demand, he was exonerated

9:53

in Twenty Twenty, after serving nearly

9:55

thirty years in prison. For

9:58

joining us know is Ron cool. He, the

10:00

criminal defense and civil rights lawyer,

10:03

has been practicing law for forty

10:05

years and he's represented many clients

10:07

who been wrongfully convicted, including. To

10:09

our demand wrong to be welcome to

10:11

on point. Ah thank you

10:14

Magnon! Happy to be here! So

10:16

first of all us claims the

10:19

company that offered Gerard that advance

10:21

prior to him of getting his

10:23

settlement from New York State. Been

10:26

in this particular business. About

10:28

giving advances to the wrongfully

10:30

convicted for about a

10:32

decade or so. What

10:35

is it about the criminal justice

10:37

system that's changed that opened? Up

10:39

this. Market. For

10:42

these kinds of financial firms. In.

10:45

The past decade we've seen

10:47

this dramatic increase in the

10:49

findings of actual sexual innocence

10:52

and convictions being overturned and

10:54

indictments been dismissed based on

10:56

this as a sampling got

10:59

the wrong person and that

11:01

his open things up to

11:03

a plethora of lawsuits against

11:05

both of municipalities and sometimes

11:08

state governments are and as

11:10

a result of there has

11:12

been a corresponding increase in.

11:15

The need for people are

11:17

to obtain some funding immediately.

11:19

Snow is this sub brand is

11:22

his past decade different from or

11:24

an accelerated process from what we

11:26

saw say in the late nineties.

11:28

And early two thousand when I guess.

11:30

First of all, dna evidence was really

11:32

the thing that broke the dam or

11:34

lack. Of t any evidence in

11:36

some cases of but Arse also

11:39

states changing their point of view

11:41

in terms of how quickly they

11:43

want to resolve. I'm a D

11:45

is the financially justices or say

11:48

that exonerates have ceased. New

11:50

York City certainly has has changed.

11:52

it's it's view on this er.

11:54

Instead of New York City fighting

11:56

every claim for as long as

11:58

they can. New City Controller

12:01

of the Controller. In the

12:03

Controller before that has put

12:05

in it so called early

12:07

Settlement Process which is a

12:09

pre litigation process. You don't

12:11

actually have to file a

12:13

lawsuit and be subject to

12:15

the very a cumbersome and

12:17

and tedious process of litigation.

12:19

You can settle the case

12:21

early but they keep in

12:23

mind even early settlement such

12:25

as in a Drug Demands

12:27

case. It took seventeen months

12:29

from his exoneration. Until he

12:31

actually had his check in his hand

12:34

moon. Well you also

12:36

call on is kind of

12:38

financial assistance. From ah, from private

12:40

the private sector a necessary evil for

12:42

exonerates and we're going to talk about

12:44

that when we come back. So run

12:47

to be stand by for just a

12:49

moment. This is on point. Support

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The That Ship station.com with the code

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B O D. You.

14:04

Back with on point and make

14:06

the chakrabarti. And today we're talking

14:09

about the growing market of financial

14:11

firms offering large cash advances to

14:13

exonerate. These were people who have

14:15

spent meet sometimes decades in prison

14:18

who were wrongfully convicted in upon

14:20

their release. they need money, which

14:22

is not quickly forthcoming from the

14:25

lawsuit they have filed against the

14:27

states that wrongfully imprisoned them. So

14:29

where's that money coming from the

14:31

financial sector? But sometimes as are

14:34

often. At interest. Rates in

14:36

the twenty thirty, even

14:38

occasionally. Forty. Percent bracket.

14:40

I'm joined today by Ron to

14:42

be the Criminal Defense and civil

14:45

rights lawyer. He's represented many eggs,

14:47

honorees and run So you know

14:49

what I describe it the way

14:51

I just did. Ah, it sound

14:53

like a very morally compromised thing.

14:56

That. Are these financial firms are doing?

14:58

but that's not the sir. The case when

15:00

you call this a. An evil,

15:02

but a necessary. Evil. Tell.

15:04

Me: Why? The

15:06

necessary part is is clear enough: most

15:09

people go into prison from poverty and

15:11

get out of prison and go right

15:13

back into poverty. Ah, and with the

15:16

actually innocent it's It's even worse than

15:18

for the actually guilty or because it

15:20

with the actually guilty. When they're released

15:23

a parole, there are programs to assist

15:25

them. There's an attempt to find them

15:27

employment and in some funding and get

15:30

them back on their feet with the

15:32

actual innocence. There are no such things

15:34

are, and most of my. Clients is

15:37

literally go from Upstate prison where they've

15:39

been for twenty or thirty years. In

15:41

the morning, go down to the courthouse

15:44

in the afternoon, and are released by

15:46

early evening, back out into the street

15:48

and they have nothing. So they need

15:51

money and nobody's offering to give the

15:53

money. even though they have this very

15:55

valuable asset out there, it's it's that's

15:57

something that can be immediately liquidated. and

16:00

evil. Part is clear enough that you

16:02

know you end up frequently paying off

16:04

percent or or you know or two

16:07

dollars on the dollar for what you

16:09

have quadrupled borrowed. Yes, it will talk

16:11

about wow, what how that math works

16:14

in a moment. But but run just.

16:17

Can. You put us in the in the shoes

16:19

of. These. Exonerate. I mean first

16:21

of all, just the experience of going

16:23

from being imprisoned for. Decades to.

16:27

Go into a long legal process but. The.

16:29

The time when that you just described from

16:31

being imprisoned to. Being. Freed

16:33

being the great height on that day, the reentry

16:36

must be quite a shock. What it's like, what

16:38

is it like for them? I

16:40

initially or it's just a

16:43

realization as to how much

16:45

they they have missed out

16:47

on starting with their families

16:49

children are now grown sometimes

16:52

parents had passed on continuing

16:54

into technology most of my

16:56

clients had never actually used

16:58

a cell phone before. Ah,

17:01

and then readjusting yourself to

17:03

a world where things move

17:05

very, very quickly which they

17:07

don't in prison, and a

17:10

world. Where where confrontation needs to

17:12

be dealt with as in a manner

17:14

very different than the way you deal

17:16

with confrontation inside prison. So

17:19

given that mean the cell phone I'm

17:21

stories. So. Impactful.

17:24

How are digs

17:26

honorees? then? Are.

17:28

Finding out about these companies like Us

17:30

Capitol that can offer them the the

17:32

advances I'm in a in Gerard case

17:34

since he was your client. Can you

17:36

tell me how he was put in

17:39

touch with Us Capitol. G.

17:41

Was the one that did it. Or and

17:43

and I do that with most of

17:45

my clients who don't have a support

17:47

structure. When. They get out of

17:50

prison mean one or two are historically

17:52

have had families and other things. They

17:54

were happy middle class victims of a

17:56

wrongful conviction. They went back to their

17:58

happy middle class existence. Were able

18:00

to survive without taking out a

18:03

lot of these loans, but for

18:05

the most part people want stuff

18:07

since they've missed out on all

18:09

of those years. Weird, ordinarily, we're

18:11

in a building our lives are

18:14

developing. Our professions are are trades

18:16

are our skills starting to make

18:18

money than making some more money

18:20

gradually rising up whatever latter were

18:23

on of purchasing our own home

18:25

in making comfortable lives for ourselves

18:27

with our families. He missed the

18:29

miss. Out on all of that. So

18:31

they want stuff Now are they want

18:33

to take care of the people who

18:35

had taken care of them in prison?

18:37

Almost invariably the first thing these men.

18:40

and they are almost all men. the

18:42

first thing they want to do is

18:44

buy a house for their mothers. Wow.

18:49

Just to be clear on because when

18:51

it comes to the criminal justice

18:53

system and the financial sector we we

18:56

want everything to be above board. Since

18:58

you said you were the one who

19:00

referred to ride to Us Capitol, do

19:03

you are do not have any financial

19:05

relationship with Us Capitol. No.

19:07

No, no, I've always made sure I've I've

19:09

never had a financial relationship with them. A

19:11

long time ago they they actually offered me

19:14

a job screening cases for them and I

19:16

said wealth is is long as you're willing

19:18

to accept the fact that I will always

19:20

say everybody deserves as much money as they

19:22

want then I I'm happy to do their

19:25

job and they they just laughed and said

19:27

no we'll look for somebody else know I

19:29

have no relationship with them. I don't get

19:31

a kick back. I don't get a percentage

19:33

are the ones in Us Capitol does. Which

19:36

is vitally important is. They tap the

19:38

interest rates at one hundred

19:40

percent. No. Matter how long

19:42

the case goes on. So people,

19:45

if they are financially prudent, don't

19:47

have to settle for pennies on

19:49

the dollar arm because they're running

19:51

up destroying and financing bill with

19:53

their financially prudent. it gives him

19:56

the money to fight their cases

19:58

at some sort of. The really

20:00

pays if that's what they decide to do. Okay, So

20:02

just to be clear, when you say cap, the interest

20:04

rate means Us Capitol is. One company that says

20:06

to the exonerate you will not have to

20:09

pay back more than twice what you borrowed.

20:11

Correct. Okay good cousin in the numbers can be

20:13

little squirrel. These. Things but we're talking about.

20:15

You know of a vast sum of money?

20:17

Me: you happen to be in in the

20:20

state that had the. Highest percentage of

20:22

exonerates a nationwide over the. Past

20:24

decade plus and because

20:27

of that the amounts

20:29

paid by the state.

20:31

Of New York to exonerate as tops.

20:34

More. Than a billion dollars. So

20:36

this is not an insignificant amount of

20:38

money. And again to emphasize coming at

20:40

a time of. Great need for

20:43

these men as. He said

20:45

who spent decades wrongfully imprisoned? So

20:47

a we wanted to learn a

20:49

little bit more about how this

20:51

worked and why these financial firms.

20:53

Are we know have been entering

20:56

this markets? Quite. Significantly

20:58

over the past many years and brought by

21:00

the way I want to add that. Exonerate

21:02

aren't the only place in which financial firms

21:05

are stepping in to sort of fill. That

21:07

gap between a lawsuit

21:09

and settlement we've. Seen it

21:12

in personal injury. We seen it

21:14

in medical malpractice and and other

21:16

it's areas but strict. We reached

21:18

out to Bradley Braun who's chief

21:20

technology officer at Tribeca Capital Group.

21:22

There another company. That offers settlement

21:25

advances to plaintiffs in various

21:27

cases including Exonerates and Braun

21:29

told us frankly that Tribeca

21:32

makes money off the advances

21:34

by. Charging high interest

21:36

rates. On average for them, thirty

21:39

five and a half percent annually.

21:41

Is they reneged Factor. Ah,

21:43

Yes, it's unpleasant. But.

21:46

Her. But. It's

21:48

also a business. Tribeca. Capital

21:51

offers advances, not conventional loans,

21:53

and that's an important. Distinction

21:55

because the advances are. Not

21:57

subject to many federal banking regulator.

22:00

And that means they. Can

22:02

charge much higher interest rates.

22:04

The. Plaintiffs is selling the. A

22:07

portion of the proceeds. I. Like

22:09

to call with his investment in

22:11

the potential settlement. Going

22:14

to Wall Street and buying stock. You.

22:17

Could miss Watney because it's an

22:19

investment. There's. No guarantees. It's how I going

22:21

to the bank and you have asked the i see

22:24

that's going to make sure it's the bank sales you

22:26

can we get something back. Came.

22:29

So it's in henri course. that's

22:31

how it's turned. Cash.

22:33

Advance. Paid. They're

22:35

selling a proceed of their potential

22:37

settlement. If. There's no settlement.

22:39

they're legally not obligated to repay.

22:42

So. Again, the exonerate do not have

22:44

to pay back the advanced if

22:46

they do not win a settlement.

22:48

Still, because of that, some companies

22:50

have charged interest rate as high

22:52

as forty percent and that can

22:54

be seen in states that have

22:56

no. Restrictions on interest rates

22:59

for advances. Places like mean

23:01

Nebraska, Ohio, Vermont, Missouri. However,

23:03

in West Virginia and Arkansas,

23:06

interest rates for such lending

23:08

are capped at seven keen

23:10

percent, and that's why Braun

23:12

told us Tribeca does not

23:14

do business in states with

23:17

those caps. The. Return just

23:19

doesn't justify it. The risk. There's

23:21

no guarantees with a home. There.

23:24

Is a risk with the bag. Because.

23:26

The home could. Burn. Down, they might

23:28

not have insurance there. There are the

23:31

exceptions to the rules, but mostly time

23:33

there is a cloud rural. That

23:35

the bank could recover. Absent that

23:37

collateral, Tribeca looking for clients

23:40

with the strongest case? Possible.

23:43

Exonerate that are virtually guaranteed.

23:46

To win their losses. Since

23:48

Two Thousand Twenty One, Two Hundred

23:50

Thirty One Exonerate applied for a

23:52

settlement advance through Tribeca, less than

23:54

a third of them. Were accepted

23:57

by the company. And out of

23:59

those accepted, tried. In them, an average

24:01

of seventeen thousand dollars, a highest

24:03

three hundred thousand dollars. Also, since

24:06

Twenty Twenty One, they haven't recovered

24:08

one hundred percent of their principal

24:10

They have lost. About eight percent

24:13

of it. but those losses are more

24:15

than covered with those high interest rates

24:17

are charging. Know

24:19

obviously exonerate is. Almost.

24:22

Never have the financial background to qualify

24:24

for a conventional bank loan. It's. Impossible

24:26

to amass a great

24:28

credit rating, a healthy

24:30

savings account, and employment

24:32

history while incarcerated. Try

24:35

Better Capital and other financial firms

24:37

that are putting advances are offering

24:40

advances to exonerate. Do not ask

24:42

for any such information and as

24:45

a result braun believe their. Funds

24:47

might be and exonerate he's

24:49

only option. I. Don't it on

24:51

a what would happen to some of the people

24:53

that we provided funds for. If. They

24:55

didn't have the financial relief. There's

24:58

There's probably a good chance they would be convicted

25:00

of a new crop. If they

25:02

were left out on the street. And

25:04

and I don't don't think I'm exaggerating. As

25:07

Bradley Broad. City. Oh of

25:10

Tribeca Capital Group know run.

25:12

Actually appreciated Bradley's the just candor

25:14

and saying it.may not feel good,

25:16

but it's a business. It's also

25:19

intelligently run, Business cause I want to focus a

25:21

little bit on the fact that not everyone who applies for

25:23

one of these. Advances. Gets it

25:25

and in order to do that can

25:27

we just go back to Gerard Demands

25:30

case for a little. That's because I

25:32

love you to take a minute to

25:34

explain all of the malfeasance and wrong

25:37

doing the happened to. Gerard in the

25:39

course of his original. Trial That

25:41

pretty much once he was exonerated

25:43

led it to be an open

25:46

and shut. Case of river regarding the he

25:48

was gonna get a settlement. So.

25:50

Without being too technical and and

25:52

legally wonky about all of this.

25:54

Basically, as you said in the

25:56

introduction to this piece, it was

25:58

a one with. His identification up

26:01

that witness came with serious problems.

26:03

Walking in, that is to say

26:05

he promised to to tell the

26:08

police of who had done the

26:10

the killing if the police would

26:12

help him get a chain back

26:14

that he claims Gerard oh man

26:17

stole from him I tried to

26:19

mom didn't even know this guy

26:21

or it later turned out that

26:24

did the prosecution. Deliberately

26:26

withheld crucial exculpatory information. That

26:28

is to say that friend

26:30

swap here are claimed that

26:32

he was in the hospital

26:34

because he had Hiv and

26:36

at that point the Hdd

26:38

a Aids crisis was was

26:40

new and very very frightening

26:42

to everybody. Or in fact

26:44

he was in the hospital

26:47

because he had a psychiatric

26:49

breakdown. he was actively in

26:51

Florence Li psychotic and the

26:53

jury defense lawyers never heard

26:55

that information. Instead they were told

26:57

he was simply hospitalized because he

26:59

had Hiv. There were other things

27:01

as well, but basically once a

27:03

friend swamp ears testimony kind of

27:05

fell apart, it was clear that

27:07

the case could not stand and

27:09

ultimately by the time we settled

27:11

the state case we actually found

27:13

out what happened on which further

27:15

exculpate literati had actually nothing to

27:18

do with that, the shooting with

27:20

him with any of it, and

27:22

indeed he was in a different

27:24

state when it also plays. A

27:26

Rotten when it just scares. A couple

27:29

more details of the case because in

27:31

the process of putting together the so

27:33

I kept telling i'm A or producer

27:35

paid Sutherland that I could not believe

27:38

what had happened to Gerard and like.

27:40

His case deserves a documentary. all

27:42

of it's own. This because. That.

27:45

There are things like Pierre had claimed a

27:48

dozen. Other people had seen the shooting,

27:50

but no other witnesses were ever

27:52

found to corroborate him. Blood. Had

27:54

been found in another location, but. Of

27:56

police officer threw it away before it

27:58

was even. They did. Pierre

28:00

had been claiming that hangs in had

28:03

been shot between the I but the

28:05

autopsy found that the a bullet had

28:07

let add to the left side of

28:09

his head of and also he was

28:11

facing charges. of his of his own

28:13

and got a deal from prosecutors for

28:15

cooperating in the case against Gerard Demand

28:18

So. So many things and

28:20

the reason why bring up. All these

28:22

details though to take it

28:24

back to the advances that

28:26

exonerate are getting from financial

28:28

firms. Run. Do.

28:31

The exonerates cases have to

28:33

be that clear. caught. In.

28:35

Order for them to get the of

28:37

the advances to help them. Through this

28:39

very uncertain period right after they've been

28:42

released from incarceration, because as we heard

28:44

a little bit earlier, ah, I'm Tribeca

28:46

Capital only gives gives out a third

28:48

a loan to this sort of the

28:50

people who apply for it. I.

28:53

Don't want to speak to their

28:55

criteria by will tell you in

28:57

the with the some doesn't exonerate

29:00

that I've represented on that had

29:02

many which have been funded are

29:04

all of my cases have been

29:06

that clear. Very

29:09

is virtually no risk to the

29:11

funders from the cases, at least

29:13

that I bring to them. What

29:16

else they find? I really can't

29:18

speak. Ah, but but there's risk

29:20

is is approaching zero of these

29:23

are. Virtually guaranteed to at least

29:25

result in enough to to pay

29:27

off the loans plus plus the

29:29

interest. Okay, what's the destiny of

29:31

him? Important point because I'm if the

29:33

person is paying off it's exonerations, a

29:36

paying off the loan plus the interest

29:38

but has very. Little settlement money remaining

29:40

after that does make me wonder he

29:42

got them through that period of time

29:44

until the settlement, But in the long

29:47

run, they're not really experiencing the financial

29:49

justice. Said that they deserve. Is there

29:51

any pressure because of the the high

29:53

interest for people to accept settlements that

29:55

are lower than they might otherwise get.

29:58

So. Much of that two pounds. On

30:00

how much videos they they borrow in

30:02

the first place. Ah, I had one

30:04

client recently who had a t back

30:07

a million dollars and he was quite

30:09

conscious of the sack that that the

30:11

interest was continuing to run and and

30:14

he settled for less than I thought

30:16

he should err. On the other hand,

30:18

if you're talking about people who are

30:20

going to have mid to high seven

30:23

figures settlements sometimes eat and eight seeger

30:25

settlements, the sense that they owe three

30:27

hundred four hundred five hundred thousand dollars

30:29

is. Not that big of a

30:32

deal. The other thing to keep

30:34

in mind though is these folks

30:36

has no place to go. Nobody

30:38

is going to. It's extend credit

30:40

or make alone at normal commercial

30:43

rates. And the people who are

30:45

calling for more regulation which of

30:47

course as whatever he says are,

30:49

they oughta do something about this.

30:52

The people calling for that are

30:54

not the good guys, their the

30:56

insurance companies and people lawyers who

30:58

represent big corporations. And really

31:00

wanna strangle plaintiffs So plaintiffs know,

31:03

settle for pennies on the dollars.

31:05

There aren't good guys here. there

31:07

are just you know, Everybody's

31:10

kind of morally compromised at this point,

31:12

right? Except be exonerated. Yeah, standby for

31:15

just a moment cause we want to

31:17

talk a lot more about really what

31:19

the says about the criminal justice system

31:21

is actually and perhaps that deaths in

31:24

the ingenuity of American capitalism is helping

31:26

bridge the gap. That shouldn't

31:28

actually be there in. The. First place so

31:30

we'll talk about that and we come back.

31:32

This is on Players. Did.

31:46

You kill Marlene Johnson. I

31:49

think you're one of the first people to have that

31:51

slayer. From. Wb You

31:53

Are and Z as the media this

31:55

is beyond all repair. A new podcast

31:58

about an unsolved murder The Billie View

32:00

Questioning everything. Somebody should be in jail

32:02

for murdering my sister, a woman who's

32:05

never been believed as long as they

32:07

think I have done this and they're

32:09

not looking for who actually And and

32:12

that's what makes it. A cold

32:14

case though. it's a botched years

32:16

and a search for the truth

32:18

once and for all. Wow. it

32:20

just gets more interesting. Beyond

32:22

all repair, listen and follow wherever

32:25

you get your podcasts. Be

32:27

careful you're digging. In.

32:30

A place it's been very peaceful. For

32:32

awhile. Do it anyway.

32:35

Dig. Your.

32:46

Back with on point I'm making Chakrabarti him

32:48

We returned to today's conversation. I just wanna

32:50

let you know we are looking for your

32:52

thoughts. And your experiences and

32:54

your input on to issues regarding

32:57

social media First and. Foremost, later

32:59

this week we're going to be

33:01

talking about the proposed ban. On.

33:03

Tic Toc Working it's way through Capitol

33:06

Hill or across. Capitol Hill. We

33:08

want to know the think it's

33:10

a good idea or is that

33:12

the real really the an effective

33:14

way to address concerns about in

33:16

odin China's the involvement and access

33:19

to the terabyte. Possibly even more

33:21

of personal data that Americans are giving.

33:23

Tic Toc A through the use of

33:25

that that app or do you think

33:27

it's a terrible idea to ban anything

33:30

outright as a means of for. Our

33:32

national security so we want to hear your thoughts on

33:34

ticked off. But then on a

33:36

different part of the social media

33:38

spectrum. Next week were actually gonna

33:41

be talking about a movement going

33:43

on across as country. Perhaps still

33:45

small but gaining momentum of parents

33:47

to thing to keep their kids

33:49

off social media. Entirely

33:52

through high school. so we

33:54

wanna know if that's you

33:56

and your. Family. So

33:58

parents have a view just. They did

34:00

a social media is not gonna be part

34:02

of your kid's life. How has that gone?

34:05

And his teens and kids listening. Even

34:07

if you're forced to listen to this show by

34:09

your parents. Good. Parents, by the way. Are

34:12

you not using social media? Has that been

34:14

a family choice? and what has that been

34:17

like? So. Go. To the on point

34:19

vox pop up on your phone. you

34:21

know have it look for on point

34:23

box pop. Send us your thoughts that

34:25

way or if it's easier. Six one

34:27

seven three five three zero Six eight.

34:30

Three. That's. The number you can.

34:32

I send a c social media thoughts to. Today

34:35

we are talking about an

34:37

interesting market in the financial

34:39

sector and that is financial

34:41

firms giving advances to exonerate.

34:43

Or people who have been wrongfully.

34:45

Convicted in ended up spending decades

34:47

sometimes of their lives in prison,

34:50

and these advances had the zone

34:52

or ease in the first. Time

34:54

in a year or two of their lives

34:56

outside of prison. But it comes at a

34:58

cost of very high interest rate and we're

35:00

joined today by Ron Kuby his A Criminal

35:02

Defense and Civil Rights. Lawyer and run a

35:05

little earlier. In. Them. So you had

35:07

mentioned some mom activities by

35:09

the Comptroller's office in the

35:11

City of New York. Specifically

35:13

that the office has had a

35:15

policy that seeks to settle. Wrongful

35:17

Conviction Lawsuit Quickly. First, you

35:20

know there's no amount of

35:22

money. You. Can give someone you

35:24

know for even a year, much less

35:26

in some of these cases. Twenty Five

35:28

years. Of wrongful incarceration.

35:30

but. Once. You

35:33

know that you know that app and the

35:35

people are do a settlement. Helping

35:37

them get it as quickly as possible and

35:39

not have to wait for it. Is this

35:41

great. Bradley. Under his New

35:43

York Controller Ha A, the City's

35:46

Chief Financial Officer. And he

35:48

says the office aims to

35:50

reach wrongful convictions settlements within

35:53

one year and ninety days.

35:55

and to do so before.

35:57

Cases. Get to trial this

35:59

case. The facts in

36:01

the law are already clear because in

36:03

wrongful conviction cases where a district attorney

36:06

a set up a wrongful conviction hundred

36:08

and reviewed their cases or just whatever

36:10

you know there's been an exoneration said

36:12

has been proven in word, you already

36:14

know the facts you know that presume

36:16

was wrongfully convicted so. Why?

36:19

Make them go back to court. sue the

36:21

city again. Read: prove what's already been proven,

36:23

the case of their innocence and wrongful conviction.

36:25

Spend a lot of money on lawyers. Take

36:28

a whole lotta time. By

36:30

the way, the Cliffs settlement

36:32

policy begin with Landers predecessor

36:34

former Controller Scott Stringer. Since

36:37

two thousand and sixteen, New York

36:39

City has had sixty for wrongful

36:41

convictions Settlements roughly a third of

36:43

them have been settled. Pre Trial

36:46

in fiscal year. Twenty Twenty Two.

36:48

There were One two, three, Four

36:50

Five Six Seven, Eight Nine, Ten,

36:52

Eleven, Twelve, Thirteen, Fourteen, Fifteen sixteen.

36:55

Total. Settlements of which five

36:57

were pre litigation totaling twenty

37:00

by million dollars have five

37:02

at his sixteen. In. Twenty

37:04

One. It looks like give was

37:06

to outta Lynwood Lander took office

37:08

in the Twenty Two and love

37:10

how is the exact. With his numbers,

37:12

their skis been able to cut down

37:14

wait times for pre litigation settlements to

37:17

ten months in two thousand and twenty

37:19

three and two thousand and twenty four.

37:21

Thus far, his office is wrapped

37:23

up to wrongful conviction settlements in

37:25

only three months a year faster.

37:28

Than the intended deadline Now according

37:30

to the. Nonprofit group The

37:32

Innocence Project. Nationally, the average

37:34

settlement wait time can run

37:36

to almost three years. Landers

37:39

says his office is able to

37:41

settle cases. Pre trial or more

37:43

often, pre trial because his office simply has

37:45

the resources to do so. We. Have

37:48

a team here of investigators

37:50

and lawyers. And we

37:52

have a whole process. People file their claims

37:55

and we've got as Stafford. it's big city.

37:57

were fortunate to have like a really high

37:59

capacity. The government. And our

38:01

folks obviously on a lot of these. They've

38:04

looked at the this kind of case many

38:06

times before. And some most mostly

38:08

what we're doing is. Is. Looking

38:10

at comparable past situations and offering you

38:13

know something that is in in league

38:15

with that past case. And by the

38:17

way, Lander says the team he has

38:19

is well worth the investment and on

38:22

the one and that costs money to

38:24

the city. But. It actually sees the

38:26

city a lot of money because as much

38:28

every one of these that we can do

38:30

this way. Cost. Much less money

38:33

than I airing a lawyer you know

38:35

outside counsel are having the law department.

38:37

Litigated. And so even for

38:39

the same. And sleeping money

38:42

And none of course for the. Way.

38:44

To have such as pass them so much

38:46

more in court. That was bread

38:49

Under Comptroller for the City of

38:51

New York know Ron Kuby. You

38:53

know New York is trying to

38:55

fast track these settlements. Did

38:58

you say little earlier that that's not

39:00

common? Or that they're an outlier

39:02

in this in compared compares to scuse

39:04

me having a tough. When states

39:06

compared to nationally. As

39:09

far as I know, New York

39:11

City is the only municipality or

39:13

entity in the United States that

39:15

makes a large up front on

39:17

your show investment in reviewing these

39:19

matters and trying to settle them

39:21

pre litigation. Usually the opposite is

39:23

true. Like every bad insurance company

39:25

in the world, they know they're

39:27

gonna have to pay eventually. But

39:29

if they can drag it out

39:31

long enough, maybe the the litigant

39:33

the plane of will accept pennies

39:35

on the dollar. or maybe they'll

39:37

go out. To commit some actual real

39:39

crime and they'll be incarcerated, sir. Their

39:42

cases worth less. Or maybe they'll die

39:44

or death of despair or something else.

39:46

Or all kinds of possibilities if you

39:48

just delay and delay delay. Our New

39:50

York City's taken a different approach. A

39:53

much better approach. but but let's be

39:55

clear. when they're offering these settlements, and

39:57

they are substantial sums, they're southern figure

39:59

settlements. They usually discount them by twenty

40:01

five percent. thirty three per cent. Sometimes

40:04

forty percent less than the plaintiff would

40:06

get if they actually went through the

40:08

whole legal process. So this the city's

40:10

that saves money. the claimant gets less

40:12

money, but gets it faster. It's as

40:15

result, the claimant has less money they

40:17

have to pay back to where one

40:19

of these funders. Yeah, so it's it's

40:21

all. sort of the a juggling act

40:23

in terms of yelling out with the

40:26

best. Outcome for the exonerate

40:28

as right whenever Wouldn't have slightly different

40:30

of a incentives here but run a

40:33

means of getting back to the core.

40:35

Fact right is that we're talking about

40:37

people. Who have spent decades of

40:39

their lives wrongfully incarcerated? Then they

40:42

are exonerated and they have nothing.

40:44

So there's this urgent need to

40:46

have some sort of foundation to

40:49

live a life after being freed

40:51

from imprisonment and that period of

40:53

time. To last, you know, a year if

40:56

you're lucky in New York, or three or

40:58

plus more years or. Elsewhere in the

41:00

country. It. Makes a lot

41:02

of sense to. Me: That the financial sector

41:04

and creative American capitalism has found this

41:06

as a market. Why?

41:09

Are our cities and states themselves

41:11

offering a pad for the exonerate

41:14

when it's the city. Or

41:16

state that first of all wrongly incarcerated the

41:18

person. First, I

41:20

think it's just too complicated thought

41:23

to work out financially. What you're

41:25

going to give people when people

41:27

or invest in them before you've

41:29

had the opportunity to actually review

41:32

their cases. And and second, I

41:34

think there's less impetus Now, frankly,

41:36

because we've reached would I will

41:38

call Peak Innocence is not by

41:41

accident that most of the cases

41:43

were talking about. Her cases from

41:45

the eighties and nineties were there

41:47

was mass incarceration and there was

41:50

very. Little technology available to separate

41:52

the actually innocent from the ass.

41:54

When guilty, you don't see many

41:56

of these wrongful conviction cases happily

41:58

off from the. Teens or or

42:01

the twenties were always going to have

42:03

some of them. But these massive numbers

42:05

that exonerations are are going to go

42:07

down the future, so there's no great

42:09

impetus to solve a problem that's going

42:12

to solve itself with the passage of

42:14

time. But. Get at one point

42:16

Well taken that I'm wondering is.

42:18

You know, Or

42:20

the personally talk to some tried that the capital

42:23

also even admitted. That this kind of

42:25

an exact her tears temp temp

42:27

couldn't that exact or be overcome

42:29

his again cities and states had

42:31

I don't know some sort of.

42:35

Fund. Set. Up so

42:37

that or it's honorees could

42:39

could be guaranteed some sort

42:41

of financial assistance upon leaving

42:43

prison. Sure, And in New

42:45

York City and you know has a

42:48

model for that. We had the Nine

42:50

Eleven font where the decision was made

42:52

at a federal level that everybody who

42:54

who suffered to the families of people

42:56

who perished or Nine Eleven were going

42:58

to get a financial settlement Ah numbers

43:00

were arrived at often very generous. The

43:02

offers were made quickly and initially and

43:04

chose to accept them as most people

43:06

did. They receive their settlements if they

43:08

chose to go to court or at

43:10

least they had a baseline for the

43:12

future as to what are they. Were

43:15

offered originally and they were

43:17

simply hoping to get more because

43:19

they didn't feel that was

43:21

adequate or that of course requires

43:24

a massive amount of capital

43:26

and I dream certainly. Vet said

43:28

the criminal legal system has managed

43:31

to monetize the worst oppression

43:33

imaginable, dragging somebody out of their

43:35

lives, consisting them for something

43:37

they didn't do, incarcerating them for

43:39

decades Wealth, their family and friends,

43:42

and in others think that

43:44

they're they're murderers. Or or

43:46

rapists, murderers, horrible people, and

43:48

then discharging them out into

43:50

poverty. But look, this is

43:52

the same energetic system of

43:54

of flourishing capitalism the created

43:56

the whole prison industrial complex

43:58

to begin with Me. There's

44:00

dozens of upstate communities in

44:02

New York said have been

44:04

built around a prison, so

44:06

it it doesn't surprise me

44:08

as it's a private equity

44:10

has managed to step in

44:12

it. It's just sort of

44:14

like wow. this. this too

44:16

is there. Nothing. is there.

44:18

No brutality and oppression. The

44:20

can be monetized. Leaders

44:22

good question run. its at the it's

44:24

it's core of this conversation. right? It's

44:27

not so much about ah, The.

44:29

Financial sector I would say exclusively. ah

44:31

but just about hood said the brutality

44:33

and repression of that is met upon

44:36

people's lives in this country in a

44:38

sense in his throat. This conversation I'm

44:40

emerging the on the other side with

44:43

thinking actually the morally up season group

44:45

here may be private equity because they

44:47

are stepping in to I'm a provide

44:49

a service that nobody else is in

44:52

an exoneration time of need. I mean.

44:55

Why? arts? Let's save the. Wealthier

44:58

of foundations or non profits.

45:00

Or even banks themselves. Ah,

45:03

In this market as well. Well.

45:06

I can't speak for wealthy

45:08

or foundations. certainly there there

45:10

is enough capital out there

45:12

for some of the not

45:14

for profits that they could

45:16

bankroll this. Ah, and as

45:18

to banks banks are notorious,

45:20

we risk averse an end.

45:22

The difficulty is of course

45:24

they could hire people to

45:26

evaluate the zog value of

45:28

the asset the asset being

45:30

the the on filed a

45:32

civil actions and they could

45:34

make an assessment of. The value

45:37

of that asset, the the various risk

45:39

involved, and in a proper case, the

45:41

bank could make that sort of alone.

45:44

But banks don't like to do that.

45:46

Banks like to have some sort of

45:48

solid, real. Collateral

45:50

rather than what we described as

45:53

in call it or unrealized ah,

45:55

value. And want to

45:57

get back to what this means. Or

46:00

ah, the exonerates

46:02

themselves. And to do that,

46:05

We. Spoke to John L. then

46:07

who's the founder and executive director

46:10

of After Innocence. It's a nonprofit

46:12

that provides reentry support for American.

46:14

Eggs honorees and he said

46:16

that as long as private

46:19

finance companies are offering advances

46:21

that are. Fully above board

46:23

and the terms are transparent. He

46:25

thinks it can be healthy and

46:27

very helpful for it's honorees, but

46:29

he warns that is exonerates. Do

46:31

take the advances they need to

46:33

make sure they have a plan.

46:35

How much you need. How. Much you should

46:38

take and critically are you going to

46:40

make that money last over the uncertain

46:42

period of time between the day you take

46:44

the money and when you get your

46:46

your settlement which has an unknown we

46:48

know the reins. It's not to be

46:50

twenty years. But. It could beat six

46:52

or eight and you may hope that it's

46:54

two or three and be wrong. So Camus

46:56

money last and tide you over? What Is

46:58

your plan? Wrong! Ah, do

47:01

the examiner is get that kind of

47:03

support. In terms of late, it's an

47:05

overwhelming kind of almost burden of responsibility

47:07

to suddenly have so much money followed.

47:09

Anybody's lap, let alone someone who,

47:11

as you said, has been completely

47:14

cut off from society for decades.

47:17

I always try or with my clients

47:19

to make a financial plan for them.

47:21

I will hook them up with a

47:24

banker. Were some sort of respect and

47:26

financial planner abuse We the person plans

47:28

my own financial life with least I

47:30

trust. Ah, try to work out some

47:33

sort of monthly payment may be ten

47:35

thousand dollars a month or even fifteen

47:37

thousand dollars months so they can live

47:39

in some comfort. Some large swamps larger

47:42

yes, mom saw maybe fifty thousand, sixty

47:44

thousand. so they can buy the things

47:46

that they've. Always wanted in in

47:48

your odds case George Omens can

47:51

support a mercedes yours want a

47:53

mercedes and he told everybody his

47:55

lawyer bought it for and stuff

47:57

like route with a thanks man

47:59

his ssssss I still article what

48:01

about that are and and try

48:03

to keep them on some sort

48:06

of a a track. On the

48:08

other hand, you are dealing with

48:10

people who may not have much

48:12

financial sophistication or financial literacy, but

48:14

they have been successfully navigating a

48:16

system that is unimaginable and it's

48:18

brutality and they don't particularly want

48:21

to hear weights on. You should

48:23

use discretion here when somebody is

48:25

offering them suddenly a quarter million

48:27

dollars or a half a million

48:29

dollars. Their tendency is to want to

48:32

take it and not want to hear

48:34

somebody like Me saying, you know, hang

48:36

on, hang on, hang on So it's

48:38

always a difficult conversation. We

48:41

have thirty seconds left for on underlying

48:43

all of this is the fact that

48:45

there. Are people who

48:47

the I have been wrongfully convicted and

48:49

are languishing in prisons across this country.

48:52

When you said. Peak. Innocence

48:54

and indeed de sade. The honestly

48:56

do. Are you optimistic that

48:58

that's going to happen less with every passing year

49:00

in America? I. Am and some

49:02

of it is due to the police

49:05

reform and criminal justice reform that's been

49:07

demanded and has been passed and implemented.

49:09

Ah, and some of the rest of

49:11

it is to simply to technology. when

49:14

I started practicing forty last forty years

49:16

ago seems incredible to say that none

49:18

of the tools that are used to

49:20

solve crimes today exist. There was no

49:23

Dna, there was no complex forensic, no

49:25

cellphones know cell towers no closer to

49:27

him as and none of that existence

49:29

and happily technology today. it's makes. It

49:32

less and less likely yes, that

49:34

there were going to be actually

49:36

sexually innocent people put behind bars.

49:38

Drawn to be a criminal defense

49:40

and civil rights lawyer in New

49:42

York. Thank you so much for

49:44

joining us! Sankey Mignon This is

49:46

on planes.