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Unlimited slows. Welcome

2:03

to this special Euro 2024 preview

2:06

edition of On The Continent.

2:09

As we continue to look

2:11

ahead to this summer's football

2:13

in Germany, we're discussing perennial

2:15

tournament dark horses, Belgium. Andy

2:18

and I are joined by Belgian

2:21

football expert Christophe Terreur for a

2:23

look at how Domenico Tedesco has

2:25

regenerated some optimism around the national

2:27

team and to find out whether

2:30

there is still some life in

2:32

the nation's golden generation.

2:35

What is the goal of the

2:37

new year? So

2:40

Christophe, if we might start

2:42

there, that golden generation, as

2:45

wonderful as it was, never

2:48

won anything and now it's fading out.

2:51

How has Domenico Tedesco managed to

2:56

instill optimism nevertheless? Well,

3:00

there's a small bit of optimism

3:02

after. He started

3:04

February old Domenico Tedesco as we all knew.

3:08

We played a friendly game against Germany like one

3:10

and a half year ago. The

3:12

first half that we played there

3:14

was the best football we've seen

3:16

from Belgium in ages with a

3:18

brilliant Kevin de Bjarne with a

3:21

good Lukaku. Everything in

3:23

that first half was fantastic.

3:25

Energetic football, we went 3-0

3:27

up and then the friendly

3:30

game finished 2-3 but then we

3:32

found out afterwards what Germany did

3:34

over the next few months.

3:37

That was not really a

3:39

good test. We've been okay.

3:43

We've discovered some

3:46

new players during the campaign

3:48

like Toni-Luca Barquio, Usdong-Wel, from

3:51

Sevilla, Usdong-Wel, from the national

3:53

team, of course, Cérémie Ducault

3:56

from Ashes the City played his role. It's

4:01

not like back in the days

4:03

in 2014 when we went for

4:05

the first time to a World Cup in more than 10

4:07

years. The

4:10

hype yesterday was a different against Montenegro

4:12

and it was about I

4:14

think 18,000 people and usually for

4:16

the Belgian national team that's 50,000

4:18

people. So

4:21

there's no hype around the national

4:23

team and expectations are quite low. And

4:27

I don't know if the general public is already in

4:29

but I think going

4:31

to a tournament for the first time since long creates

4:34

an atmosphere. But now we've been

4:36

there, we've always disappointed people will

4:38

just wait before they join in

4:40

I think and become enthusiastic about

4:42

the national team. So is

4:44

this why Tadesco has got a

4:47

contract extension then, Christoph? It's a

4:49

recognition maybe that this is a

4:51

job that's going to take some time

4:53

because they are in this transitional period.

4:56

Yeah, and also because I think they

4:58

didn't want to go into a tournament

5:00

with a manager that has

5:03

no contract for next

5:05

year. They didn't want to talk

5:07

about who will succeed him. I

5:09

think that nobody's ever confirmed that

5:12

there might be a clause in

5:14

case that if it's

5:17

a complete failure. But

5:20

yeah, you have to do

5:22

very badly to not qualify for the second

5:25

round in this format to be fair. So

5:27

I think he will stay on and

5:30

he will still need some time I think

5:32

because there's a huge gap between the older

5:35

generation like the ones like the Brenner, Lukaku.

5:37

And even Jan Vittomen at the age of

5:39

37 still being around. Then

5:42

you have the guys who are in between like Leon

5:44

de Rotrosal and Yuri Tylenov. But

5:47

then you have the very young ones, Kevin de Bernhard

5:49

told me this week that he feels very old in

5:51

the national team now and he's only 32. But

5:55

in the dressing room he feels 20 is

5:57

it? Of course he does, yeah. It

6:00

would be quite something, wouldn't it? For

6:03

this dark course of

6:07

international tournaments, Belgium, to

6:09

not qualify through to

6:11

the knockout stages when you

6:13

look at the group

6:15

stages, your competition there, is

6:18

that the bar that the

6:21

national team and Tedesco have to

6:23

reach at the very minimum? Yes,

6:25

but it's what we expected that

6:27

the world could think of dark

6:29

too, like, oh, we're going to

6:31

easily walk through this Ted group

6:33

stage with Morocco and

6:35

Croatia will qualify, no worries,

6:38

and then Canada and then

6:40

you end up being

6:42

out of the tournament after two weeks.

6:46

But that's the minimum bar and as

6:49

we are not at the good side

6:51

of the draw, I think we'll bump

6:53

into France in the

6:55

quarters or maybe even around earlier.

6:58

So we expect to

7:00

make France and that's basically it

7:02

and their tournament will finish for

7:04

us. That's what Belgium's expect. So

7:07

if we look at these senior players that

7:09

were still here, the remnants of the golden

7:11

generation, so De Bruyne, Vitzel,

7:14

who's had a pretty good

7:16

last couple of seasons actually as a defender

7:18

at Atletico, which people maybe wouldn't have expected,

7:20

Vittongen, Lukaku, not

7:23

only how important are they this

7:25

summer, but what sort of baggage

7:27

do they carry from 2022, as you say, because

7:31

those players were all complicit

7:33

in that failure? Yes,

7:36

I think some are still motivated

7:38

by it. Lukaku was not fit

7:41

in in in in 22. He

7:43

was, he came back

7:45

from injury and missed loads of chances in

7:47

the last game that he played in those

7:50

30 minutes, but he was not fit to

7:52

be fair. De Bruyne

7:55

since then made important, he's now

7:57

the captain. made

8:00

some trouble already in the first game

8:02

by saying to Toby Aldeweld that he

8:04

just has to shut up during the

8:07

game. They had the other serious row,

8:09

they had group chats after that. So

8:11

the Bjarne is now the captain. They've

8:14

made him really important and responsible for

8:16

everything. So he's the captain

8:18

on the pitch basically, but Lukaku is

8:20

the leader of

8:23

the gang. And because all the

8:25

youngsters, also the younger guys who've come

8:27

through, under let's say youth ranks,

8:29

they all look up to Lukaku. Lukaku

8:31

has been one of their examples. The

8:33

one who's made it in the international

8:35

team became the top scorer, made an

8:37

international career. So all those

8:40

guys listen to him and he's the

8:42

guy who does all the motivational talks

8:44

also in the dressing room. So those

8:46

are the two most important ones. Jan

8:48

Vettongen is the

8:50

only experienced defender, but he's

8:52

injured, he's struggling with

8:55

an ankle injury, I think. So he's

8:57

not sure he will make the first

8:59

game. And then Witzell

9:02

only came back now.

9:04

So he's been available

9:06

for the national team for more than a year.

9:08

And I don't think he will be a

9:11

starter because he plays now as

9:13

defender. And he plays at the

9:15

applicant to go in a three-man

9:17

defense and Belgian play with the two-man

9:20

defense. And you can't play with

9:22

Tungen and Witzell at the same

9:24

point because they bow very slow. So

9:26

yeah, they will have to make

9:28

a choice there. But Witzell will

9:30

also with his experience and motivate

9:33

the guys behind the scenes. So

9:35

they just got set that they missed that bit

9:38

of experience in the squad. So that's why he

9:40

got him back. So what's the public

9:42

view of Lukaku at the moment? I mean, you've

9:44

said what a totem is for those younger

9:47

players as an under-legged youth

9:49

product. And he still goes and visits

9:51

sometimes and gets the hero worship and

9:54

all that sort of stuff. But what

9:56

about the public? Because as you say,

9:58

it wasn't fit and that was clear. by

10:01

the fact that he got himself in the spot

10:03

and missed those chances against Croatia in that final

10:05

game in the group stages in

10:08

2022. Since

10:10

then he's had a strange time, I suppose

10:12

you could say, in club football, and

10:15

he's had a sort of strange season

10:17

at Roma. Some points at

10:19

which he's looked really good, but he

10:21

hasn't looked absolute peak Lukaku,

10:23

has he? What sort of Lukaku

10:25

are we expecting at Euro

10:27

2024? Well, I

10:29

think at the end of the season,

10:31

even since March, I think he's been

10:33

struggling with a sore hip injury at

10:35

Roma, so he's not fully fit. I

10:38

think he didn't play against Montenegro, the

10:40

friendly game wasn't even on the bench,

10:42

so that's already a sign that he hasn't

10:44

done a lot over the last few weeks,

10:47

and they won't talk about it in use.

10:49

But he's been carrying something and they always

10:51

try to get him to play. I think

10:53

Mourinho pushed the maximum out of it before

10:56

he got sacked, because as we all

10:58

know, Lukaku didn't have a

11:01

pre-season, even though with Chelsea he was

11:03

sent to a youngster's squad. And

11:05

then he only moved at the end

11:08

of August to Roma, and he immediately

11:10

started playing almost 90 minutes

11:12

every single game until

11:15

De Rossi took over, I think it was in the January,

11:17

beginning in February, I think. He

11:21

was already tired by then, so we don't know

11:23

what to expect. But anyway, he's

11:25

always performing for Belgium, but

11:27

again, top scorer in the qualifications.

11:30

He's been there before, we've seen that

11:32

in every single qualification campaign, and

11:34

I think he's only scored two

11:36

goals in knockout stages on big

11:38

tournaments, so we don't have to

11:41

draw too many conclusions from that. But

11:44

for Belgium he always performs, but it's

11:47

the same as with Kevin de Bruyne, who's had his

11:49

season with a serious hamstring injury.

11:52

They have to keep both of them fit. That

11:55

will be the biggest challenge, I think. for

12:00

as long as possible squeezing every

12:03

ounce of well

12:05

weight from them and why not

12:07

but they will pick up

12:09

injuries you will have a slower

12:13

pace of player but the youngsters

12:15

that are coming through mate they

12:18

look like the beginnings of a golden generation

12:21

to me as well what the play that

12:23

we're most familiar with is perhaps Jeremy

12:25

Dokku who plays for Man City scored their

12:27

last goal of the season in the FA

12:29

Cup final and Manchester City fans were wondering

12:32

why Pep didn't bring him on sooner

12:34

I'm presuming that he'll be one

12:36

of the first names on the team

12:39

sheet as a starter rather

12:41

than as a sub for

12:43

for Belgium well

12:46

I think he will star but Domenico

12:48

Teresco is also a fan of Janik

12:50

Jarasco plays in Saudi Arabia right now

12:52

because he adds a bit of more

12:54

balance to that very attacking squad like

12:57

with Dokku it's a bit of

12:59

sometimes all or nothing that's something

13:01

they've seen at Manchester City too

13:03

Dokku can cause a lot of

13:05

damage with his pace yeah

13:08

I think he's the fastest player around but

13:11

yeah sometimes the end product is not there

13:13

and he's done well he started well for

13:15

City then he had an injury then you

13:18

didn't see him for for a while the

13:20

end of his end of the season was

13:22

good too so he's learned a lot at

13:24

City but he's still

13:26

young and raw and if that we

13:29

say that he's 21 but if I compare him to

13:31

the 21 year old Edin

13:34

Hazard he was further in his in

13:36

his development already at that point he

13:38

had made he had

13:40

made little champions in France

13:43

he was already carrying Chelsea

13:46

at that age and

13:48

Dokku wasn't really yet carrying carrying

13:51

City so that's

13:53

the difference that I think

13:55

that's what some players say that the new

13:57

generation is very very very good

14:00

but is it of the same level as

14:02

the Golden generation? Not sure, they still

14:05

have to prove everything at top level

14:07

and Dokko is now the first one

14:09

who made that step. Lots of people

14:11

expected a lot from Romeo La Villa

14:13

who moved from Southampton

14:15

to Chelsea but he was injured for the

14:17

whole season not even in the

14:19

squad and youngsters like

14:22

João Bacayoco for instance from PSV

14:24

and the very exciting player too.

14:26

It's still inconsistent

14:28

so the gap is

14:31

a bit too big between the

14:33

old generation and young generation I

14:35

think but we can cause a

14:37

lot of chaos I think. I

14:39

don't want to be the team that plays

14:42

against Belgium but for instance like I think

14:44

we will even be better that we play

14:46

against stronger teams where we can be basically

14:48

the transition team with the pace of Dokko

14:50

with those passes of Kim in the attracting

15:10

a lot of attention for his

15:12

performances with with Ren, Charles de

15:14

Catalera has had a really good

15:16

season with Atalanta coming back from

15:18

his poor first season in Italy

15:21

but you talked about Ed

15:23

and Azar there I mean it's just an

15:25

impossible standard to reach really isn't

15:28

it you can't expect players to to

15:30

be as good as Azar. Do you think the public

15:32

understands that in Belgium? Do you think the public gives

15:34

them a bit of a pass for the moment or

15:38

I think they still get a pass because

15:40

Dokko is very exciting to be fair. He

15:43

draws you to yeah to like

15:45

we say in Dutch to the point

15:47

of the chair that you move oh

15:50

oh something's gonna happen so Dokko has

15:52

that X factor from the rest expectations

15:54

are quite low also because yeah

15:57

if you look at the team sheet we

15:59

don't have we will maybe go

16:01

into it later. No Timo Kultwain goal anymore,

16:03

which is basically

16:06

one of the world's best

16:08

goalkeepers. Timo Ticostania, he

16:10

plays here for

16:13

Fudum, so that's lower ranks Premier

16:15

League, let's say. Wout

16:18

Fars, who will be next to him, probably

16:21

champion in the championship with Leicester.

16:23

Jan Wertongen playing at the

16:25

age of 37 for Amne Licht. And

16:27

then Tejato is basically centre of

16:30

the Fender playing as a left-back.

16:32

Amadou Anana played against relegation with

16:34

Everton. If you go

16:36

through that, Timo, you look at 2018 when I think 14 or 15 players

16:38

in that squad were

16:42

playing for the top five in the top five clubs

16:45

in the Premier League, that's a huge difference. And

16:47

that's something that people realised too. What

16:50

we had back then was our moment and

16:52

we missed it. And

16:54

that's why people are not expecting too much

16:56

anymore. But the bar

16:58

has been set very high with that

17:00

generation, to be fair. And

17:02

we don't have Vincent companies anymore, no

17:05

Thomas Villem-Arlands. But yeah, you have to

17:07

give those youngsters a chance. Maybe they

17:09

develop into top

17:12

players or even Dokku is the

17:14

one really knocking at the door

17:16

already. But

17:18

it will all go a bit slower, I think,

17:20

now. But anyway, it's still

17:23

an exciting team to be sure. Cool

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loss. No

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T-bone court work. No

19:01

safe pair of hands. How come?

19:03

Well, it's a long story, a

19:05

very, very long story. We can go on

19:07

for an hour, I think, if we take

19:09

all episodes. But basically, yeah,

19:11

let's blame first Kevin Ljubljana. He

19:14

got injured in the

19:16

Champions League final last year

19:18

after 30 minutes. Romelu

19:21

Kaku missed a big chance in that game.

19:24

So a week later, Belgium have a

19:26

training camp. Kevin Ljubljana can't play because

19:28

his hamstring is completely torn and

19:31

he's the captain. So Domenico Tedesco

19:34

for the game against

19:36

Austria, the qualification, has to choose

19:38

between two of his vice captains,

19:40

Romelu Kaku and Thibaut Courtois. Thibaut

19:43

Courtois comes back to Belgium thinking,

19:45

I might get the

19:48

captain's band because on Saturday, Belgium

19:51

are celebrating. I have a celebration game

19:53

from 100 cap. You

19:56

already played that 100 game for Belgium

19:58

during the World Cup in Qatar. but

20:00

that was the first big home game, so they

20:02

want to celebrate it. So he thinks I

20:05

might be captain for the first time. He's

20:07

a very proud guy. Yeah,

20:10

and then you had Tedesco thinking,

20:12

how can I lift Lukaku's mood? He's

20:14

just missed a huge downs in the

20:16

Champions League final. He doesn't

20:19

come from a good season. He's down.

20:22

And then he decided to make Lukaku

20:25

captain for the Austradriac game and

20:27

told Kuttwa, but you will be

20:30

captain in Estonia in a few

20:32

days later. But Kuttwa didn't take

20:34

that one well. He played that

20:36

game against Dorostja, but afterwards he

20:39

took Tedesco to his side

20:42

and said that he felt a bit humiliated

20:46

because his girlfriend was there at that moment. At

20:48

that moment, not his wife, he had she flew

20:50

in, he had celebrated, and he was just

20:52

not happy. He wanted the captain's

20:54

band just specifically in that game

20:56

because he was celebrated. And

21:00

there it all went wrong. Tedesco

21:02

said some things against him.

21:05

He said some things and he said, I'm

21:07

leaving. I'm not coming back anymore. And Tedesco

21:09

said, yeah, you can leave, but I will

21:11

say everything to the media. And

21:14

Kuttwa said, OK, that's a threat. But

21:16

do what you want. I'm not coming back. And then

21:19

on the Sunday, the day after the game, team

21:21

had to come to the training camp at eight

21:23

o'clock in the evening and there was no Thibaut

21:26

Kuttwa. And it leaked, of course,

21:28

things like that leak out of the camp

21:30

quite early. So in the morning, this man

21:33

made a made a

21:36

story that Kuttwa was not there. So,

21:38

yeah, that was big news. And then

21:40

you can get also leaks out of

21:42

the camp, a press conference from Tedesco

21:44

later, where he tells everything, everything

21:46

what has happened during those

21:48

talks with Kuttwa and Kuttwa being

21:51

very unhappy that everything, every single

21:53

detail he said into those talks

21:55

got leaked. All was set

21:57

in the press conference. And then he said, yeah.

22:00

It's breach of trust. I can't trust

22:02

that manager anymore. I'm not coming back

22:04

anymore. And since then, there

22:06

have been talks from the

22:08

Federation. They've sent two guys to Madrid

22:10

to talk with Kuchtoire on the 7th

22:12

of August. They went there. Kuchtoire

22:15

said, not coming back. I don't want a meeting

22:17

with the DSCO. And two days later, he gets

22:22

injured. The training session is out for 10 months.

22:25

And everybody thinks at that moment, problem

22:27

solved. Kuchtoire won't be there at the

22:29

Euros. In December, he says, I'm

22:31

not going to the Euros because I

22:33

won't be fit. And then he's

22:35

fit in April and that issue appears again.

22:38

But yeah, there hasn't been any talks.

22:40

The DSCO had already planned without Kuchtoire.

22:42

Kuchtoire said in December,

22:44

I'm not going to the Euros. And he

22:46

hasn't had a meeting with the DSCO again.

22:48

So yeah. And then you have a player

22:50

performing in the Champions League final. And

22:53

you get that discussion every single day

22:55

again. What will what will happen with

22:57

Thibaut Courtoire? He won't be there for

23:00

the Euros. Simple as that. So that's a long

23:02

story short. But yeah,

23:05

there's a lot of funny details

23:07

in those talks that happened during

23:09

the time together that it will

23:11

draw us to far, I think.

23:14

I mean, really, where does this leave

23:16

Thibaut Courtoire in terms of his international

23:18

future? Because as you say, there's a

23:21

strong argument to

23:23

place him as the best goalkeeper in the

23:25

world, despite the fact he's missed this entire

23:27

season, comes back, has this great game in

23:29

the Champions League final? I

23:32

mean, how does Tadesco's contract

23:34

extension affect him? Is

23:38

this in any way solvable? Well,

23:41

if they're both strong

23:43

characters, so it will depend on them.

23:45

But I think if the DSCO stays

23:47

on, I don't see a return

23:49

of Courtoire, to be fair. So

23:52

maybe he's quite close, like the

23:54

director of football of the Belgian

23:56

Federation, Frank Fercauto, is the

23:59

one who gave Courtoire. his first full

24:01

season at Canc, so they have

24:03

a good relationship but even him

24:05

couldn't solve it right now. So

24:08

it all relies on two stubborn

24:10

guys sitting together and

24:12

the desco was already ready to make

24:15

that start in the summer but Gertwase

24:17

knows. So we'll see but I don't

24:19

see it happening to be fair, the

24:21

desco and Gertwase. Then you get those

24:23

stories all over again if Gertwase was

24:26

on a press conference, the questions about

24:28

the desco and then it's all about

24:30

Gertwa again and how will that squad

24:32

react? Gertwase wasn't already the most popular guy

24:34

in the dressing room because gold peoples never

24:37

are. They've been known as the training on

24:39

their selves. They're not never the most popular

24:41

characters but yeah how

24:43

would a group react to

24:45

that? I don't

24:47

think he's that welcome and the

24:50

group for the

24:52

atmosphere it's maybe now better that

24:54

he's not around. So yeah.

24:56

What does this tell us about

24:59

Tedesco as a person? Because

25:01

he's someone who has done good stuff

25:03

in the club game. So you think

25:05

he's won a trophy at Leipzig, got

25:08

Schalke into the Champions League. I mean

25:10

there've been some obviously worse bits of

25:12

his career as well but for someone

25:14

who's a relatively young

25:16

coach for him to take

25:19

on one of the biggest names in

25:22

in Belgian football does that show us what sort

25:24

of strong character he is and

25:26

in a way what attracts the

25:28

Belgian FA to him? I

25:32

think he had yeah if you look at both

25:35

sides he had to do

25:37

that. If a player like

25:40

that insults

25:42

some players is angry. If

25:45

you as a manager, as a new manager,

25:47

just being in he was only there for

25:49

like three four months. If you back down

25:51

already you might lose the rest of the

25:53

squad or say oh easy easy we can

25:56

do everything we want and uh

26:00

Some say it's bad, man-management, Ian overestimated

26:02

the ego of Courtois at that point.

26:04

He was warned for that. Maybe

26:07

he should have known better because he

26:09

knew all the issues that Courtois also

26:11

had with the Belgian Federation, things that

26:14

happened before. But it's

26:16

such a difficult decision. And if

26:18

you hear how he handles, for

26:20

instance, De Bruyne and Luc Carco,

26:23

he's a lot with them on

26:25

the phone. He communicates with them.

26:27

He asks them advice. Maybe

26:33

he took on one player to

26:35

show his power to the rest. And

26:38

now everything is fine. But

26:42

Courtois' ghost will be there

26:44

all tournament. If goalkeepers make

26:46

a mistake, everybody will be

26:48

saying, yeah, Courtois would have

26:50

saved their warm. If

26:53

they suddenly become European

26:55

champions, yeah, there

26:58

will be somebody who's the loser.

27:00

That's the goalkeeper who stayed behind

27:02

in Madrid. So, yeah,

27:04

the ghost will always be there with

27:06

the Descot, too, because Courtois is not

27:09

the most popular character also in Belgium

27:11

because he's quite outspoken. But,

27:14

yeah, everybody rates him, basically.

27:16

Everybody knows he's our best

27:18

goalkeeper. You

27:20

know, normally, on a normal occasion,

27:23

Belgium would be everybody's dark

27:26

horses. Every tournament

27:28

since 2014. You

27:31

want to watch out for Belgium,

27:33

the commentators will say. Don't

27:35

write them off. Don't write them

27:38

off. And you've suggested

27:40

that getting to meet

27:42

France in the knockout stages would be

27:44

the point where you

27:46

would think that they've had a decent tournament. That's as

27:48

far as it will go. But

27:53

when you say that the

27:55

ghost of Courtois

27:58

is looming over this, like the

28:00

ghost. of Hamlet's father. Would

28:04

there be question marks as to

28:06

how much further they could have

28:09

got or even with Coutois are

28:11

they not ever going to beat

28:13

France? I think

28:15

it wouldn't depend if Coutois was playing

28:18

behind a very strong defence I think

28:21

we would have said he would have made

28:23

the difference one round or not but I

28:26

don't think he will make

28:28

that huge difference. He

28:32

got us through the Brazil game for

28:34

instance at World Cup but then we

28:37

lost against France in the semi-finals. A

28:39

good goalkeeper is a thing

28:42

but it also depends on your defence

28:44

and the rest of the squad. Koon

28:47

Castelles or Matt Sells who will replace him

28:49

are not bad goalkeepers to be fair. They

28:51

are good, they are not off the level

28:53

of Coutois but they are good,

28:56

even sometimes very good. I

28:59

don't think the difference will be

29:01

that huge but it's just a

29:04

perception issue. Media like that story

29:06

of Coutois and Coutois gets you

29:08

the clicks and gets you the

29:10

things so Coutois would throw Coutois

29:12

into a press conference, throw Coutois

29:14

into the conversation. The general public

29:17

talks about it. You say we

29:20

are dog horses again so

29:23

we can disappoint again like

29:25

we've always done. If

29:28

you had to make a prediction then Christoph,

29:30

we're going to pin you down for

29:32

this. What's your prediction for

29:35

Belgium? Quarter to finals.

29:37

It's not a bad one.

29:39

By how much

29:42

will they beat Slovakia, Ukraine

29:44

and Romania? There's pinning down,

29:46

I mean come

29:48

on. One nil, one nil, one

29:50

nil. Wow,

29:55

it's been excellent speaking to you. Believe what

29:59

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