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0:48

This is On the Media. I'm Michael Loewinger.

0:51

Immigration consistently polls as one

0:53

of the most important topics

0:55

for voters. Well,

0:58

some voters. According to a recent

1:00

Gallup poll, immigration is the most

1:02

polarizing issue of the last 25

1:05

years, with 48 percent of Republicans

1:07

saying it's the most important issue

1:09

compared to just 8 percent

1:11

of Democrats. This

1:13

probably has something to do with the

1:15

coverage of immigration in conservative media. And

1:18

recently, right-wing pundits have begun to

1:20

focus on one of the most

1:22

dangerous parts of a migrant's journey

1:24

north, from South America. Last

1:28

year, at least 520,000 migrants crossed it to come

1:30

here. How

1:34

did that happen? What is it?

1:36

What is going on in the Darien Gap? In

1:39

March, New York Times reporter Ken

1:41

Bensinger reported a story from the

1:43

Darien Gap in Panama, which

1:45

was once thought to be too perilous

1:47

to cross, but which now sees thousands

1:50

of migrants make their way through every

1:52

month. A podcast

1:54

we listen to regularly here at

1:56

OTM Is The Daily News Show

1:58

What Next? Posted by our

2:00

former W N Y C colleague, Marry

2:03

Harris, who now works at Fleet. And.

2:05

On a recent episode, Mary spoke to

2:07

Can Bend Zinger about this new right

2:09

wing media obsession with the dairy and

2:11

Gap. Here's mary. Can.

2:14

Says there is one man in particular.

2:16

Who has made it his mission to

2:18

get eyes on who is coming through

2:21

this newly popular route on the radio

2:23

as I really do point a lot

2:25

of this to this one. This one

2:27

person named Michael Yawn who I talked

2:29

extensively. He. In Twenty Twenty

2:31

One is as their January Six event

2:33

in Washington. He's as if he's app

2:35

what became this insurrections, Israel and the capital.

2:38

But he's not going in the capital

2:40

though he is on the grounds of

2:42

use their documenting it and then he told

2:44

me he later. You know? was

2:46

at Joe Biden inauguration in protest. And.

2:50

He told me that soon after the inauguration

2:52

he realizes immigration was going to be the

2:54

big scheme and he'd spent time in Eagle

2:57

Pass in Texas and and and in El

2:59

Paso and had met some people there who

3:01

are from Panama. We said you gotta come

3:03

down to Panama check this out and he

3:06

as early as February twenty twenty one starts

3:08

going down there to to look around and

3:10

within a few months he's decided that he

3:12

needs more people to come and see any

3:15

more people with a bigger sort of and

3:17

cultural and media reach said he'd as to

3:19

get. Us a message that they innovation

3:21

sort of invasion is is now focus

3:23

their that's the focal point the world.

3:26

How many people this point has? he led? Through.

3:29

This region. And he's and

3:31

sassy. we get to talk to has tons

3:33

of energy and claims that he doesn't keep

3:35

track of such things because people keep track

3:38

of the number of times they went to

3:40

a place where the number of people they

3:42

brought to a place or newbies and aren't

3:44

legit. And that legit people people really been

3:47

down the trenches don't keep track of such

3:49

such minor details. Okay, but I finally got

3:51

him after after I'm sort of multiple tries

3:53

to say that it's been at least sixty

3:55

people He estimates are he's brought down. There

3:58

are and among them our congressmen. Candid

4:00

for elected Office podcast

4:03

or as photographers. Lots.

4:05

Of social media influencers, people who work

4:08

for i'm conservative newspapers ah lot of

4:10

people who worked for an internet based

4:12

web shows on the same platform as

4:15

Steve Bannon show called real America's Voice.

4:17

I'm and to just be brought a

4:19

ton down there and it's gotten to

4:21

the point where people in that world

4:24

kind of our covetous of an in

4:26

from Mack be hunted down there and

4:28

and check out the scene. You

4:31

and down to. Watch what happens

4:33

when I conservatives influencer named

4:36

Laura Luma went down for

4:38

her tour. She's only thirty

4:40

years old. She's a right

4:43

wing Provocateurs sees run for

4:45

Congress in Florida. She's described

4:47

herself as a proud Islamization,

4:50

though I believe she's distanced

4:52

herself from that. That

4:54

label recently, but she's been out

4:57

there before. What?

4:59

We see doing in Panama. Why did

5:01

she want to go to? This has

5:03

become something you have to do if

5:06

you are in this world. you know

5:08

that's that's exactly what I wanted to

5:10

find out. My primary beat is looking

5:12

at me figures on the on the

5:14

right and instead of them the right

5:17

wing media environment. She's one

5:19

of the people I look at

5:21

and follow and social media and

5:23

see what they're up to. And

5:26

she's been very close to their

5:28

campaign Donald Trump and went to

5:30

their primaries in Iowa, New Hampshire

5:32

essentially to use to boost Trump

5:35

and more anything to go after

5:37

his opponents to go after I'm

5:39

Rhonda Sanders and Nikki Haley particular

5:41

everybody. Loves to a new episode Every

5:44

man Just host Laurels Today's episode. Were

5:46

going to talk about how to see

5:48

as it is an enemy to the

5:51

January Six political. Prisoners I'm and

5:53

she's got a very unique style.

5:55

She likes to. Ambush

5:57

people she calls and luma ring to cause

5:59

it looms. They are you going to my

6:01

sources. Such as

6:03

off hours, a night of Iowa

6:05

Caucus, or someplace shortly after. An

6:09

absence A job Interview each a Salon Florida

6:11

so that you could run for president. Asking

6:15

a question about your. Mother.

6:19

Yeah, you get new murder. Away from

6:21

jumps out from behind a pillar and six

6:23

camera your face and she told me she

6:26

has a she got a a trademark or

6:28

something with a government that so term limited.

6:30

I'm. So. I just thought well I

6:32

want to go see her in action. I didn't

6:34

have anybody that Iowa New Hampshire. I'm gonna go

6:36

to South Carolina where the next big primary as

6:38

in watch her their songs gearing up to do

6:40

that and then I was looking for such me

6:43

if he is she now says. Early

6:46

February that she decided not to

6:48

go to the primary in South

6:50

Carolina. That instead she decided to

6:52

accept an invitation from Michael Yawn

6:54

to go to Panama to see

6:56

the dairy Japs. I think

6:58

that exposing us immigration issue will further

7:00

help. People. Understand why we need

7:02

President Trump back in office as well Because

7:04

this is just. They

7:06

see the border, They see politicians going

7:08

Elites Are you see people swimming across

7:11

the Rio Grande? But. I

7:13

don't think a lot of people are aware

7:15

of these Chinese Communists encampments in the jungle

7:17

and Panama and of these Hamas and Hezbollah

7:19

outposts. and ah, you know, all the narcos.

7:22

So. More limmer. Was.

7:24

Shooting video. The. Whole time you

7:26

were with her you are watching her do that isn't right. I.

7:28

Mean. I'm sure there are moments

7:31

down There was the where the camera was a

7:33

rolling but there were not many eyes every time

7:35

I saw her Summer was filming it back when

7:37

I was talking to her we were sonos walking

7:40

around between places where there weren't necessary migrants around

7:42

and the cameras are pointed right at us. So

7:44

I was on camera next Laura the whole time.

7:46

Sometimes to cameras are one something tell me me

7:48

talking to Laura. I wonder what

7:51

one did you in particular because it really

7:53

seemed to catch fire on line. This is

7:55

as video. That rumor took with a

7:57

twenty year old migrant named a You

7:59

Bieber him. from Somalia. He

8:02

had traveled to Turkey and Brazil

8:04

and then to the Darien Gap on

8:06

foot. What did

8:09

Loomer want to know from him?

8:11

The scene was they're walking around this

8:13

camp and there's a lot of Venezuelans

8:15

there, there's some Colombians or some Ecuadorians,

8:18

and here and there are people from the rest of

8:20

the world and sort of sitting against a trailer and

8:22

one person leaning up against a truck or a bunch

8:24

of people who obviously look like

8:26

they're not from South America. Turns out

8:29

there's Somalia and there's a couple of Somalian women

8:31

wearing, I think they're wearing hijab.

8:34

So the whole crew, not just Lour Loomer, but

8:37

the whole crew, more or less fast walked over

8:39

there and asked if anyone would talk. So

8:41

they were clearly casting for what

8:43

they wanted to see, which is

8:46

someone Muslim. That's right. This

8:48

guy Ayub, I think was trying

8:50

to be very polite. I think he speaks

8:52

pretty good English. There was sort of maybe a bit of a pride

8:54

in the fact that he speaks good English to be able to show

8:56

it off, agreed to do this, and all

8:58

the cameras pointed him. And the questions

9:01

very quickly go towards American politics. Are you

9:04

so good? You guys like Ilhan Omar? Yeah.

9:08

Why? I know. Okay,

9:11

so she's one of us. She's from

9:13

Somalia. Then she went there by immigration

9:15

by refugee. Then

9:24

she can congresswoman. So

9:26

I want to be like

9:28

a, going there. You want to be

9:30

in politics. You want to go work in politics

9:33

in America? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:35

Or anything. For

9:37

now, I don't have any choice. They're

9:40

asking specific questions about Joe Biden and about

9:42

Donald Trump and about immigration. And he's saying

9:44

that he doesn't follow American politics very well,

9:46

that he was, even during the Trump presidency,

9:48

he was too young to even really pay

9:50

attention, didn't know what was going on. But

9:54

they're pushing him and asking him over and over

9:56

again, sort of, do you support Biden or Trump?

9:58

Who's better for immigrants? Rather

10:01

than he was as I was young, I

10:03

didn't slow. they would see so. Many

10:07

a think is better for illegal immigrants

10:09

trump or Biden. By

10:12

Demichelis sustain A because Joe

10:14

Biden said our borders or

10:16

else And yes, that's some.

10:19

Catches me with on one him to say because

10:22

of me see this over and over I saw

10:24

it over and over with them is trying to

10:26

get migrants the burning of seeing the like pardon

10:28

better than truth omitted he bind is good for

10:30

migrants. Yemen you were there, when

10:32

is it is Interview was done when it

10:35

eventually was edited and uploaded. Didn't

10:37

what we sent around seem accurate to

10:40

the conversation to you? Well

10:42

I mean it was. It. Was real

10:44

footage on and so happened that I've

10:46

recorded the conversation as well. And there's

10:49

three or four five questions that on

10:51

our laurels rumor and others were asking

10:53

how much detail and that don't end

10:56

up on the versions percent. And these

10:58

are questions. For example, they're trying to

11:00

get him to admit that United Nations

11:02

or the Us in a secret be

11:05

seen Him Money. On. To help him

11:07

pay for his. Ways. To the U

11:09

S and he denies that and to didn't get the help from

11:11

anybody. On and and then ask

11:13

him Lol Lou Ross and bunch of

11:15

questions about his long arm and a

11:18

thing. Trying to get him to sort

11:20

of admit that his mom I'm ah,

11:22

cervix of women as second class citizens

11:24

on Orcs sinks Arab homosexuals as second

11:26

class citizens of the he doesn't take

11:28

the bait. crazy. Keep denying that he

11:31

thinks that he believes that people can

11:33

do what they want he didn't need.

11:35

doesn't we the religion to dictate people's

11:37

lives of those answers didn't seem to

11:39

be what these groups looking for because

11:41

they're. They're on the cutting room floor. He

11:44

wants. Find them on the Internet and be stopped.

11:46

Internet That more numerous posting to. Get.

11:48

A into he said later after the

11:50

scenario post said. Laura. Limmer

11:52

went on. Info: Words and

11:54

talked about how people like Mr.

11:57

Ibrahim Word Jihad A sore people

11:59

with jihad. Tendency is my understanding

12:01

is that's not what you actually saw from

12:03

him that was not all what I thought

12:05

from If anything you tell your story trying

12:07

to get the opt out of a country

12:09

with the problem with violent political fundamental a

12:12

religious fundamentalism and he the story told me

12:14

and even to some degree retired or lower

12:16

was it's that's why you were for to

12:18

get away some and he took a huge

12:20

for saw and financial risk to do so

12:22

and damage christian sacrifices to get their last

12:24

thing. He was news project that stores and

12:26

I kept in touch with a you as

12:29

you made it's way. Further, North

12:31

and found This is a person who

12:33

was excited about the idea of starting

12:35

new life in America and not living

12:37

a life of risk and fear on

12:39

and certainly wasn't religious, fundamentalist and every

12:42

and any level and he fell even

12:44

com sessions me very upset about the

12:46

way that in interview when he thought

12:48

that's he was he was steered into

12:50

places that he the hadn't intended to

12:53

go. And

12:55

I remember he asked me he sent me

12:58

a message saying as it did anyone posts

13:00

video from that interview and us again and

13:02

and he said we share with me so

13:04

I did it's and see saw a video

13:07

on he wrote me back and he says

13:09

oh my god you know you know the

13:11

truth. Can you please post the truth in

13:13

Utah The world That conversation was really about.

13:16

And he seemed really upset. Will

13:20

be back after a quick frank. Used

13:30

to about. A. Few

13:32

different characteristics that right wing

13:34

influencers seem to be looking

13:37

for when they go on.

13:39

These. Trips

13:41

to the Darien that. You've

13:43

talked about how doesn't from

13:46

man in particular, not women

13:48

and children? You start about

13:50

how they're looking for people

13:52

who aren't necessarily coming from

13:54

South American countries, are coming

13:56

from China, Africa, Haiti, other

13:58

places. And you to. The about how

14:00

it's important to them. To

14:03

talk politics, To talk about what do you want

14:05

to do in United States and also really want

14:07

to vote for even though that's not really gonna

14:09

be. Something. They can do for a

14:12

while if ever. Why

14:14

are those? Three

14:16

or four things. So important

14:19

for them to capture. Like how

14:21

do you think focusing on those

14:23

traits helps shape and narratives for

14:26

these folks? I

14:28

mean I think the new. The. Clearest

14:30

answer to that is similar to what

14:32

the goal is. Probably the goal is

14:34

to. Foment. Fear about

14:36

Immigration about migration back and demographic

14:39

change of the country arm and

14:41

also tie that she's crying. Service.

14:45

Welcome is tracey the country to Tyler

14:47

to the by administration into democratic party

14:49

and to to say that the chemistry

14:51

she's responsible for something that you should

14:54

all be scared us on to handcuff

14:56

those two ideas together. Where. People

14:58

like Laura Limmer and Michael Ian. Transparent.

15:00

About that like were when you ask like

15:03

what's your goal here where they like oh

15:05

yeah to make people scared now but they

15:07

are And Laura for example is very transparent

15:09

about the fact she wants Donald Trump to

15:11

win and in sheep's she calls herself a

15:13

journalist by. I'm. As is, totally

15:15

as no problems whatsoever with Asa Ceva.

15:17

She's an advocate for one particular candidate

15:19

or party. In this case, it's Donald

15:21

Trump and more going anywhere else. I

15:23

saw him in there, she wore that

15:25

on her sleeve and in every conversation

15:27

she tried she tried introduced the concept

15:30

the Trumpet Be be the Answer on

15:32

Michael Yawn or. Didn't. Do that

15:34

the like. A Yawn is also very openly

15:36

against border policies. Metal yawns kind of more

15:38

plugged into the global kind of conspiracy minded

15:41

aspect of it. His take on this and

15:43

that of several people on his entourage is

15:45

kind of like, well, the Us government's only

15:47

part of a big system on that that's

15:49

pushing more wide demographic change. So the Chinese?

15:52

what are they doing? Many are coming for

15:54

this reason. For that reason I don't know

15:56

what all they're coming for Their clearly mostly

15:58

military age males. When you say me terry

16:00

age mail that makes me think they you

16:03

believe they're coming here to invade in a

16:05

fight. Is that what you're say Ellie is

16:07

pretty obvious and I think of you come

16:09

their targets are brought up and justified in

16:11

this race. New targets are at which I

16:13

think they would characterize almost as I just

16:16

a small piece of it or a tool

16:18

of greater powers And greater powers are things

16:20

like arms the United Nations on are you

16:22

freaking reptile to accept the World Economic Forum

16:24

which is the robot that hosts the annual

16:27

in a shindig in in Davos while the

16:29

rich and powerful. Dell arm and then

16:31

come the Chinese government. Was.

16:36

Michael. You on is kind of a bit

16:38

of a puzzle. To me and I'm wondering

16:40

what you thought of him after spending a

16:42

good deal of time. With him because

16:44

it's clear he's made all these connections

16:47

in the Panamanian. Government even talk about

16:49

how. You know people who

16:51

are with him. Could. Go places and

16:53

Panama that you yourself as a

16:55

times journalist couldn't necessarily go because

16:57

he just had the poll with

17:00

a local officials to get his

17:02

people. In. And

17:04

to me that is raises questions as. If

17:08

he's the main. Way.

17:11

That. Journalists.

17:13

Quote Unquote. People. Can.

17:16

See what's happening in? This region. But.

17:19

She seems like a huge problem because he's

17:21

so clearly has an agenda. right?

17:23

I mean, he's a person who has an

17:25

agenda. He's an agenda for a long time.

17:27

He's inserted himself into that the hot spots

17:29

for. At least a decade,

17:31

maybe maybe longer. New twenty years for

17:34

this has become what he does and

17:36

Lights and Dinner is kind of an

17:38

ideologue and true believer and of his

17:41

true beliefs are are often pretty far

17:43

out there and I'm he is very

17:45

obsessed I would say wouldn't China and

17:48

believe the Chinese doing many many nefarious

17:50

things all the time. I'm more recently

17:52

he been active in in the Netherlands

17:55

where he's on the side of farmers

17:57

were protesting environmental regulations on but he

17:59

said. Really what's going on is that

18:01

China is creating an immigrant's drive towards

18:04

Europe to wipe out the population into

18:06

Netherlands and had to replace several and

18:08

voting population with and sort of that

18:10

Syrians and other people some from war

18:12

torn parts the world se gotta kind

18:14

of a consistent message to explain why

18:16

all these things are happening and the

18:18

my listeners might notice a great replacement

18:20

dairy and it sounds like he has

18:22

the great least in theory about. Everywhere

18:25

Europe united sates just the immigrants are coming

18:27

in their their their to take your vote

18:29

your money whenever he has a global south

18:32

is taking of the gun the north and

18:34

having him as sort of that organizer house

18:36

is hop on the ground getting keep on

18:38

his movements is gonna tell you a lot

18:40

about what the movements going to say. You.

18:44

Know I'm pretty clear. After reading your

18:46

reporting what people like My going

18:49

and Laura Luma are advocating against

18:51

because they use really strong language

18:53

to articulate that they are against

18:55

a quote unquote invasion of migrants.

19:00

But. What Are these people? Advocating.

19:03

For. If there's a solution

19:05

they can think of, I think it

19:07

boils down to a couple things. One,

19:09

they think that all the non profits

19:12

that a humanitarian nonprofits like the Red

19:14

Cross or a Doctor's that borders and

19:16

also all the Un international organizations like

19:18

to basically just it's close up shop

19:20

in Central America should get out of

19:23

their completely and do offer no services

19:25

whatsoever to migrants. That seems like a

19:27

disaster. While they argue with their incentivizing

19:29

migration. And. Panama has you could

19:31

argue has responded as you know, Panama

19:33

my said isn't a response, but Panorama

19:36

basically booted Doctors Without Borders out of

19:38

Panama. I'm out of there and Gap

19:40

region saying that they hadn't complied with

19:42

their sort of requirements for staying married.

19:44

So now that group which is I

19:46

was the my primary place to offer

19:48

much needed medical aid for migrants is

19:50

no longer operating in Panama. Yeah.

19:54

I would have you left your trip. Ceiling.

19:58

Canada. Sparing about what your. Up

20:00

against as a journalist like, there's only

20:02

one story. By you about his

20:05

internet videos but he said

20:07

michael yawns take him sixty

20:09

people into the jungle. To.

20:12

Get his point of view out there. Juri,

20:15

The balance is really off here. Yeah,

20:17

I'm you have to be careful, of

20:19

course you not. My job is not

20:21

advocate for one side of the others

20:23

immigration debate and I'm not an immigration

20:25

reporter but I do think my job

20:28

is to try to get as close

20:30

the truth is possible and also to

20:32

to try to debunk or at least

20:34

show different truth when things are not

20:36

on been presented in a way of

20:38

it's in good faith arm and it

20:40

is frustrating because there's a lot of

20:42

firepower out there pushing towards this narrative

20:44

that I don't think reflect reality. And

20:47

Michael yawn tells me to keep making trips

20:49

and people like Laura Luma say they may

20:51

go back home. They find it if you

20:53

know and it's an important place to be.

20:56

An important thing to be. To. Be

20:58

capturing on film to show back to

21:00

America. Numerous recently announced that she's going

21:02

to make a documentary she trying to

21:04

raise one hundred thousand dollars to to

21:06

make a documentary based primarily on footage

21:08

from her ten days in Panama. She's

21:11

gonna call it the great replacement. Yeah,

21:13

that's right, the Great Replacement. So fiscal

21:15

underscoring the idea this clearly false conspiracy

21:18

theory that there's a plan to basically

21:20

permanently install a democratic party in the

21:22

Us by bringing in com immigrants from

21:25

other countries who will who were legally

21:27

vote and vote for democrats. and the

21:29

idea that the super come into view

21:32

as to vote is absurd. Your commute

21:34

of us to work and keep their

21:36

fingers crossed, that they can stay an

21:39

arm and in a legal way and

21:41

contribute to society and and. Do the

21:43

immigrant story. They do the immigrant dance

21:45

that this country's been doing for well,

21:48

forever. but so certain his last several

21:50

hundred years. This isn't

21:52

to say that don't think there isn't a

21:54

serious problem out there. I'm in. My colleagues

21:56

of your times have spent way my hand

21:58

and military Gap and. Committed the crisis

22:01

is going on there and I'm have

22:03

watched the human suffering but also all

22:05

the other towards taking on the region

22:07

and and the hemisphere and on how

22:09

their his a real crisis there and

22:11

the point is not to say that

22:13

this isn't a problem but that it

22:15

pointed say that's labeling. every immigrant has

22:18

some kind of tactical weapon pointed at

22:20

the Us is is just is not

22:22

helping at all. It makes the situation

22:24

even worse. Can

22:28

am grateful for your time Think is not

22:30

recommend on the show. Oh thanks for having

22:32

the variance. Let me go on about this.

22:34

It's her. It's to me of a really

22:36

interesting an important topic. Can

22:40

Bend Singer is a New York Times political

22:42

reporter. He covers right wing. Media and

22:44

national. Campaigns. Thanks.

22:49

For listening to the mid week

22:51

podcast, we have a really fun

22:53

show for you this weekend in

22:55

the fall. Out of the completely

22:57

bizarre, sad Cpt Scarlett Johanson scandal,

22:59

I'm going to be diving into

23:01

the world of tech reporting and

23:03

asking, how should we be covering

23:05

a I: How can we do

23:07

it better? I'm excited about this

23:09

one. see Friday I Microloans or.

23:23

I'm David Remnick Cost of the New York or it. Is

23:27

nothing like finding a story you can

23:29

really sink into that less you tune

23:31

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23:33

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