0:01

You don't have to have this website and a link that

0:03

people have to click on. You can just say stuff and

0:05

you can get attention. You don't need to

0:07

be Breitbart to do that anymore. Does the

0:09

rise of X signal the fall

0:11

of traditional right-wing outlets? From

0:14

WNYC in New York, this is On the

0:16

Media, I'm Brooke Gladstone. And I'm

0:18

Michael O'Loinger. Also on this

0:20

week's show in Russia, a funeral,

0:22

an election, and a journalist in

0:24

prison. But it's hard to

0:26

see your friend and

0:28

colleague on the front page of a

0:30

magazine. I think he just wants

0:32

to be writing the stories. I think he wants

0:35

to be in Russia

0:37

reporting about this repression.

0:40

Plus the importance of

0:42

nuance to distinguish between

0:44

terms like anti-colonial decolonization.

0:46

There's a lot of these words kind of

0:48

flying around and there are many people who

0:50

are not using them in a way that

0:53

further the debate or even inform people. It's

0:55

all coming up after this. This

1:00

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2:00

Biden speaking at the State of

2:02

the Union on Thursday. But you

2:04

can't lead America with ancient ideas.

2:07

Joe Biden delivered what has been

2:09

described in the press so far

2:11

as feisty, fiery, heated. You can

2:13

tell how well he did by

2:15

how annoyed Republicans are this morning.

2:18

A very different Joe Biden. I

2:20

might call him Jacked Up Joe.

2:22

Sean Hannity of Fox News, who

2:24

until now has preferred the Sleepy

2:26

Joe epithet, a coinage from Donald

2:28

Trump, or my predecessor, as Biden

2:31

called him 13 times on Thursday. And

2:33

so now we've entered a new phase

2:36

of the race. With Super Tuesday behind

2:38

us and Nikki Haley out, Trump can

2:40

finally start raising money like the GOP

2:43

nominee. Just kidding, he's been

2:45

at it for months. Donald Trump's campaign

2:47

is purling an embarrassing precedent

2:50

into much-needed cash. The former

2:52

president surrendered yesterday at Atlanta

2:55

jail. Here is the mugshot.

2:57

Trump's face is already making

2:59

its way onto T-shirts and

3:02

coffee mugs. Donald Trump launching

3:04

his own limited edition Trump

3:06

digital trading cards. His

3:09

new Trump branded sneakers. They

3:11

are painted gold. Their names never

3:14

surrender high tops. I can't

3:16

make this up, guys. And they sell for just under $400. Despite

3:19

all his merch sales and

3:21

donations, Trump's campaign fundraising is

3:24

lagging behind Team Biden. He's

3:26

also on the hook for $83 million

3:28

for defaming Eugene Carroll and $355

3:30

million for fraudulent

3:33

business practices in New York. Adding

3:36

interest and other penalties, NPR

3:38

estimated he owes $600 million.

3:42

Enter the world's second richest man.

3:44

Check out this headline from the

3:46

New York Times. Trump

3:49

seeking cash infusion meets

3:51

with Elon Musk. Elon

3:53

Musk is in a unique

3:55

position to come close to

3:57

erasing that deficit almost single-handedly.

4:00

But, writing in the Washington Post this

4:02

week, columnist Philip Bump argued that, quote,

4:04

it's not money that Elon Musk is

4:07

contributing to Donald Trump. These

4:09

two kindred spirits have other reasons for

4:11

teaming up. I think it's

4:13

important to recognize that they are

4:15

sort of reflections of each other.

4:17

That Donald Trump was a business

4:19

person who increasingly embraced right-wing

4:22

politics and then moved into the

4:24

political realm. Elon Musk was

4:26

a business person and has increasingly embraced

4:28

even further right-wing rhetoric and is becoming

4:30

more of a political actor in part

4:32

through his purchase of Twitter, which is

4:34

now X. It

4:36

is that, that similarity in both

4:39

trajectory and landing points that made

4:41

it sort of natural that the two

4:43

of them would at some point in time put their heads together. Musk

4:46

tweeted that he was, quote, not

4:48

donating money to either candidate for

4:51

US president. So Musk

4:53

isn't going to give Trump money, right? Well,

4:56

there's a lot of wiggle room in not

4:58

contributing to candidates, right? He could potentially donate

5:00

to a super PAC. He could start his

5:03

own super PAC, which is supporting Trump. He

5:05

could do things like work out some sort

5:07

of way of allowing Trump to advertise on

5:09

his platform relatively inexpensively. There are lots of

5:12

ways in which he can provide economic value

5:14

to Trump. So why would Elon

5:16

Musk help Donald Trump financially? Well

5:19

that's the central question. Elon

5:21

Musk views himself as sort of sitting

5:23

above the intellectual fray, that he understands

5:25

the world in a way that others

5:27

don't. He views himself in the world

5:30

as sort of the prime mover, right? If you're Donald

5:32

Trump and you're trying to get Elon Musk to give

5:34

you money, probably the worst way to do it is

5:36

to try and bring him on board Team Trump. Elon

5:38

Musk doesn't want to be on anyone else's team. He

5:40

wants to view Donald Trump as being on

5:43

his team, make Donald Trump part of his

5:45

collective. I do think that it's important

5:47

to note that Elon Musk, by virtue

5:49

of his ownership of X, really

5:51

does sit on top of a conduit that

5:54

is really important for Donald Trump and not

5:56

a financial one, but one that is centered

5:58

on public attention. I were

6:00

Donald Trump and I were following

6:02

what has very clearly happened to

6:04

X since Elon Musk took

6:06

over. I would say to myself, seems

6:09

like this guy's already pretty aligned with me.

6:11

I mean, just look at his tweets. Elon

6:14

Musk purchased Twitter now next,

6:16

in part as a reaction

6:18

to this right wing idea

6:20

that moderation on Twitter had

6:22

become something that was an

6:24

impediment to conservatives. Now,

6:26

that moderation that Twitter and others

6:28

like Facebook had implemented was a

6:30

response to an increase in abusive

6:33

and toxic behavior and misinformation that

6:35

emerged during 2016, in

6:37

part because of Donald Trump supporters. And

6:39

that was viewed by the political right

6:41

as being an imposition on conservative ideology.

6:44

Musk reacts to that, buys Twitter slash X,

6:47

and then lifts that moderation. So Elon Musk,

6:49

by purchasing this social media platform, has reverted

6:51

it to the sort of platform that it

6:53

was in 2016, when it was so advantageous

6:55

to Donald Trump. And not only has he

6:57

reverted it, but the guy who owns the

7:00

platform, who is the most followed person on

7:02

the platform with over 175 million followers, is

7:04

himself spreading right wing conspiracy

7:09

theories, this week in particular,

7:12

about immigration. So this

7:14

week, he has embraced this idea that

7:16

Democrats are trying to bring immigrants into the

7:18

country so that then they can vote. And

7:20

we've seen him do this in the past,

7:23

using, for example, when he elevated this

7:25

Associated Press story, that Biden wanted to create a

7:27

pathway to citizenship for people who are in the

7:30

country and who are not yet citizens. This is

7:32

an article from 2021. That's

7:34

exactly right. Before using the president, the article basically

7:36

said, Joe Biden, when he soon becomes president, is

7:39

going to introduce this proposed bill. And so he

7:41

did. He introduced a proposed bill for pathway

7:43

to citizenship, and it went into the House, and nothing

7:45

happened. But that's what Musk is

7:47

using to say, oh, look what Biden's trying to

7:49

do, because they're trying to get all these Democratic

7:51

voters, and it's just fundamentally dishonest. And one wonders

7:54

whether or not Elon Musk recognizes it as dishonest.

7:56

But either way, it's advantageous to Donald Trump's position

7:58

on the way that he's doing immigration should

8:00

be addressed. On Tuesday, he

8:02

posted that Biden had committed treason.

8:05

The so-called treasonous act was

8:07

a new program which would

8:10

allow Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and

8:12

Venezuelans, if they had a sponsor

8:14

in the US and they passed a background check, to

8:17

work lawfully in the United States for

8:19

two years, hardly sneaking

8:22

people in. Yeah,

8:24

exactly. Treason has a very specific

8:26

definition, which is that you have to aid an enemy of the United

8:28

States that the United States is at war

8:31

with. It makes no sense. It's obviously just

8:33

rhetorical, and it's obviously Elon Musk's knee-jerk reaction

8:35

to having immigration increase in the United States.

8:37

Now, there's an irony here, of course, which

8:40

is that Elon Musk is himself an immigrant

8:42

to the United States, who has celebrated the

8:44

fact that he did so by following the

8:46

standard procedure. But this is

8:49

exactly that sort of policy. This is

8:51

something that was authorized to have people

8:53

come to the United States as immigrants and be

8:55

able to be successful here for a period of

8:57

time. This gets turned around

8:59

by Elon Musk into something that is evidence

9:01

of Joe Biden's secret plan to subvert the

9:04

United States. And this brand

9:06

of conspiracy theory is like super hot

9:08

right now in the right-wing media. According

9:10

to Media Matters, in just the last

9:12

couple months, we've heard it on Fox.

9:15

The Democrat Party, the US government gets

9:17

what they want, which is a new

9:19

wave of immigrants, perhaps future voters. On

9:22

One American News Network. If illegal aliens

9:24

turn residents, turn citizens, turn voters with

9:26

vote Republicans, you and I would not

9:28

be having this conversation. That is their

9:30

agenda. They're trying to change the electorate

9:32

because they cannot win without

9:34

importing more Democrat voters. That's

9:37

a whole ballgame. On Newsmax. How

9:39

many of you feel better that

9:41

to start with Democrats are pushing

9:43

to let foreign nationals cancel out

9:45

your vote, but only on local

9:47

elections? And on right-wing radio. This

9:49

is revolution by illegal immigration, Mr.

9:51

Producer. It sounds a lot like the Great

9:53

Replacement Theory. Exactly. I mean, the Great Replacement

9:56

Theory puts forward that there is this cabal

9:58

that is trying to bring new people to

10:00

the United States to replace those that are

10:02

here. I mean, it just on the face

10:05

of it doesn't really make any sense. Over

10:08

the course of the past decade or so,

10:10

we have seen that there is not necessarily

10:12

a consistent pattern in voting for Hispanics who

10:14

live in the United States. It is not

10:16

the case that even if you were to

10:18

have a number of immigrants and create a

10:20

pathway for them and become citizens to the

10:22

vote, those aren't democratic voters. That's just simply

10:24

not how it works. This is

10:27

not a function of the Biden administration.

10:29

The path to becoming a citizen takes years

10:31

and years and years. There's no blanket thing

10:33

that Joe Biden can do to turn these

10:35

people into voters. And even if he were

10:37

to do so, the odds that

10:39

they vote democratic are not as high as being presented.

10:42

After Fox's $787 million settlement with Dominion and the ongoing

10:48

Smartmatic defamation case, you'd

10:51

think that right-wing media would be

10:53

way more careful about these voter

10:55

fraud claims this time around. And

10:58

yet, these conspiracy theories sure

11:00

sound like fodder for claims

11:03

to delegitimize a possible Biden

11:05

win in November. Yeah,

11:07

I think that's true. But I also think that

11:09

more broadly, this fits into the

11:11

way in which the political right has

11:13

tried to delegitimize democratic voting in general.

11:16

Doing things like insisting that the reason

11:18

young voters like Democrats isn't because they're

11:20

particularly concerned about climate change or gun

11:22

control or things along those lines, it's

11:24

because they're being brainwashed by their high school teachers

11:26

and their professors. It assumes that

11:28

if you are someone who supports the

11:31

Democratic Party, you are necessarily being misled

11:33

in some way, convinced by

11:35

Hollywood or by ads or

11:37

by CNN or MSNBC to vote in a particular

11:39

way that if you were simply a rational person,

11:41

you wouldn't. It's that they have to cheat. They

11:43

have to try and bring in these non-whites, always

11:46

as being the subtext here, people to come into

11:48

the United States and turn them into Democrats. Because,

11:50

of course, once again, they're just going to vote

11:52

Democratic as Democrats for all sheep. And this is

11:54

just a way of increasing the size of the

11:56

flock. In 2020, the right wing media were

11:58

obsessed with the vote by mail. conspiracy

12:00

theory that people who

12:02

wanted to vote from home would

12:04

be taking advantage of a system

12:06

to nefariously vote extra times or

12:08

what have you. And this year,

12:11

it's the undocumented immigrants conspiracy

12:13

theory that has emerged thus

12:15

far. There's still plenty of time

12:18

for other fear mongering messages and

12:20

conspiracy theories to rival this one.

12:22

But could you compare and contrast

12:24

how this election feels compared to

12:26

2020? Back

12:28

in 2020, we heard a lot of similar conspiracy theories about

12:30

what was going on with crime, right?

12:32

That the social justice protests that unfolded over

12:34

the summer, some of which culminated in acts

12:36

of vandalism and destruction, you know, most of

12:38

them didn't, as we all know by now,

12:41

that that was spun as being this horrible

12:43

thing that presaged what was going to happen

12:45

under President Biden. Fox News

12:48

night after night after night would show the

12:50

same footage of acts of vandalism in New

12:52

York City. You still hear today Republicans talking

12:54

about how cities were burned to the ground

12:57

and destroyed in 2020 and, you

12:59

know, just simply detached from reality. And

13:01

I think that's the role that immigration

13:04

is going to play this time. The

13:06

migrant crime wave. This is already something

13:08

that Donald Trump and Fox News picked

13:10

up this idea of migrant crime as

13:12

being something that needs to be tracked

13:14

independently. We started the conversation talking about

13:17

Elon Musk and his growing coalition with

13:19

MAGA activists, the MAGA leader,

13:21

Donald Trump himself, and the movement at

13:23

large. This transformation of

13:26

X slash Twitter comes

13:28

at a time when, interestingly, right wing

13:30

media seemed to be really struggling. New

13:32

data released last month from the writing

13:35

using traffic data from comScore showed

13:37

that for the top right wing

13:40

sites, only Newsmax has gained traffic

13:42

since 2020. And just about

13:44

everyone else has lost a lot of traffic.

13:46

Fox is down 24 percent. The

13:49

blaze is down 60 percent. State

13:51

bar is down 87 percent. This

13:54

is worse than the dips in

13:56

traffic we're seeing for mainstream outlets

13:59

like CNN. Twenty percent. tip. New

14:01

York Times 22% tip during the

14:03

same four-year period. Are conservatives spending

14:05

less time reading about politics or

14:07

do you think as David French

14:09

argued this week in the New

14:11

York Times, conservative right-wing readers are

14:13

increasingly spending their time on Elon

14:15

Musk's ex or other right-wing

14:17

social media? I think it's

14:19

probably more of the latter. One

14:22

of the things that we saw over the course

14:24

of the past 15 years or so is you

14:26

had Fox News's behemoth on the right and it

14:28

started to be challenged from the right by

14:31

sites like Breitbart and eventually sites like

14:33

the conspiracy site Gateway Pundit. You had

14:35

these people who were willing to feed

14:37

the demand of further right content. Donald

14:39

Trump was successful in 2015-2016, I would argue, because he

14:43

echoed the themes that were emerging from that

14:46

further right world of conservative media and conservative

14:48

thought. He would frequently cite articles from Breitbart

14:50

and so on and so forth. But what

14:52

happened is that social media made it so

14:54

that you could move very easily even further

14:56

right. You didn't have to put together a

14:58

website, you didn't have to put together a news

15:01

article with an ostensible reporter reporting it out.

15:03

You could just say stuff and

15:06

he'd get attention. One of the better known

15:08

people in the conservative social media world is

15:10

this guy who calls himself cat turd. He

15:12

sat down for an interview with Tucker Carlson

15:15

and in an interview revealed that he didn't

15:17

really know that much about politics, but he

15:19

just has this ability to sort of respond

15:21

in real time to what's happening and frame

15:24

things in a way that is viewed appreciatively

15:26

by the right. And it's made him

15:28

very successful. You don't need to be Breitbart to

15:30

do that anymore. And you can gain clout. And

15:33

even because of the way that Musk has set

15:35

up the platform now, you can get money from

15:37

it. That is an unusual driver of

15:39

the decline that we're seeing among conservative media

15:41

outlets. It is extremely bad

15:44

to have one of the principal drivers of

15:46

the national conversation be a guy named Cat

15:48

Turd who gets retweeted by the president. Philip,

15:50

thank you very much. Philip

15:53

Bump is a columnist for The Washington

15:55

Post and the author of the weekly

15:57

newsletter How to Read This Chart. Coming

16:04

up, before we argue about

16:06

conflict in Palestine, we have

16:08

to talk about colonization and

16:11

colonialism and know the difference.

16:14

This is On The Media. At

16:25

Radiolab, we love nothing

16:27

more than nerding out

16:29

about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

16:31

But we do also like to get into other

16:33

kinds of stories. Stories about

16:36

policing, or politics, country music,

16:38

hockey, sex, of course.

16:41

Regardless of whether we're looking at science

16:43

or not science, we bring a rigorous

16:45

curiosity to get you the answers. And

16:48

hopefully make you see the world anew. Radiolab,

16:50

adventures on the edge of what we think

16:52

we know. Wherever you get your podcasts.

16:56

This is On The Media, I'm Michael Loehinger.

16:58

And I'm Brooke Gladstone. Here's President

17:00

Biden on Thursday night. The

17:03

leadership of Israelite say this,

17:05

humanitarian assistance cannot be a

17:08

secondary consideration or a

17:10

bargaining chip. Protecting and saving innocent

17:12

lives has to be a priority. As

17:15

we look to the future, the only

17:17

real solution to the situation is

17:19

a two-state solution over time. Since

17:22

October 7th, many have

17:24

been grasping for ways to

17:27

explain or even describe an

17:29

intractable crisis in Palestine spanning

17:31

generations. And to that

17:34

end, three words are being deployed over and

17:36

over again. Colonialism,

17:39

decolonization, and

17:41

liberation. We're pushing for a free

17:43

independent Palestine. We're pushing for decolonization,

17:46

land back, etc. Decolonization,

17:48

free Palestine. That equals the

17:51

slaughter of Jews. I

17:53

felt that there's a lot of these words kind

17:55

of flying around and there are many people who

17:57

are not using them in a way that furthers.

18:00

the debate or even inform people.

18:03

Iyad El-Baghdadi's forebears left what is

18:05

now Tel Aviv in 1948. Today

18:09

he's a Palestinian human rights

18:11

activist, a writer, and co-author

18:13

of the Middle East Crisis

18:16

Factory. In November, he wrote

18:18

a thread on Twitter X clarifying

18:20

what terms like colonialism

18:23

and decolonization really mean

18:25

and why muddling them can

18:27

be risky. To colonize

18:30

means we just establish a colony. You

18:32

forgot to mark, for example, and we establish a base

18:34

over there. We can say it's a mass colony. Colonialism,

18:37

on the other hand, to colonialize

18:40

is really an exercise in hegemony. It's a

18:42

mode of domination. This is where a society

18:44

might have existed for its own sake. But

18:47

through the deployment of immense power,

18:49

immense hegemony, you can turn it

18:52

into something that doesn't exist for its own sake. Colonialism,

18:55

he says, comes in two

18:57

flavors. First, the extractive kind.

18:59

In extractive colonialism, the objective

19:02

is to extract work away.

19:05

You need the labor class, you need people to work the

19:07

fields, you need people to work the plantations, you

19:09

need them subjugated, but you don't need them

19:11

dead. And then the second, settler

19:14

colonialism, where the colonizer wants

19:16

the land without the people.

19:19

And that, El-Baghdadi says,

19:21

describes what happened in

19:23

Palestine. In settler colonialism,

19:25

the colonizer here wants the

19:27

land for expansion, for a

19:29

new settlement displacing the natives.

19:32

The tools of hegemony over here are much

19:34

more brutal because we don't need

19:36

those people to be there. But the

19:38

word that's most muddled, and he

19:41

says dangerously so, is

19:43

decolonization. It's too

19:45

often confused with another term, anticolonial.

19:48

Not every anticolonial movement

19:50

is decolonial. It's

19:52

simply being opposed to the presence of

19:54

colonialism. Anticolonial movements

19:56

themselves can fall into the same patterns of

19:58

the colonizers. have a worldview

20:01

which is zimmed upon these colonial concepts.

20:03

Decolonization on the other hand, the way

20:05

that I approach it is that it's

20:07

not really about removing people, it's about

20:10

removing supremacy. There's no longer

20:12

colonizer and colonized, there's simply

20:14

equal sentences in one's name.

20:17

This of course does not erase the

20:19

iniquities of the past, but this is the only

20:21

light that can lead us towards the future. So

20:24

you argue that there are two main

20:26

models of settler colonialism

20:29

and understanding the nuances of

20:31

these models is key to

20:33

reckoning with Palestine. There's the

20:35

Algeria model and the South

20:37

African model, they've both been

20:39

applied to Palestine. Algeria

20:42

was colonized by the French for

20:44

a period of around 132 years. The

20:47

model followed by the Algeria

20:49

independence movement was mainly

20:52

a military approach, make

20:54

the colony unlivable until they leave.

20:57

Algeria managed to accomplish that eventually in

21:00

I believe 1962. In the South African

21:03

model, the colonial situation was

21:05

resolved by creating a democracy

21:07

that included both the

21:09

previously colonized and the previous colonizer

21:11

in a democracy. One person, one

21:14

vote, everybody had the same supermanship,

21:16

the same rights. Whether

21:18

you pick the Algeria model or the South African model,

21:20

the kind of movement that you build is going to

21:23

be very different. 21

21:25

years ago in a 2003 interview, they

21:54

struggled against occupation in their parlance to

21:56

struggle for one man, one vote. a

22:00

much clearer struggle, a much more popular

22:02

struggle, and ultimately a much more powerful

22:04

one. For us, it would mean the

22:06

end of the Jewish state. He's

22:08

saying basically that there cannot be

22:10

a two-state solution. Because

22:13

it was perceived that Palestinian statehood

22:15

would be a lethal threat to

22:17

the Jewishness of the state. This

22:20

was where the current impacts, where we have

22:22

a state of school where it's neither

22:24

Algeria nor South Africa, but kind of both. The

22:27

pre-operative problem for reality

22:29

was not something that Israel's humble people,

22:32

but an accomplishment of two generations of Israeli

22:34

politicians. It was a conscious clash. October

22:37

2004, Fair Advisor to Ariel Sharon,

22:40

it says the significance of the disengagement

22:42

plan, which is pulling out from Gaza,

22:45

is to freeze the peace process. And

22:47

when you freeze that process, you prevent

22:49

the establishment of the Palestinian state. And

22:51

you prevent the discussion on the refugees, the

22:54

borders, and Jerusalem. Effectively, this

22:56

whole package, called the Palestinian state, with

22:58

all that it entails, has been removed

23:00

indefinitely from our agenda. What

23:02

would be the result of pursuing

23:05

the Algeria model in Palestine? Because

23:07

a big part of the Palestinian

23:10

movement doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist. They

23:12

don't. Alzereans were fighting around the same

23:14

time that Palestinians were fighting, but Alzereans won. Many

23:17

Palestinians got this impression that, yes, we have to do the

23:20

same thing that they did. My

23:22

position, of course, and the position of many others, is

23:24

that French-Alzerea is not Israel. There

23:26

are many, many reasons. For one

23:28

thing, the French had a place

23:31

to go. They could go

23:33

back to France. Yeah. Meanwhile, Israelis have nowhere

23:35

to go. Also, at

23:37

the height of French colonialism in Algeria,

23:39

I don't think the

23:41

French non-natives exceeded 20% of the

23:43

population. They were all of the minority.

23:47

In the case of Israel-Palestine, it's

23:49

half and half. Israel was

23:52

founded by Holocaust survivors. They

23:54

were escaping a millennium of

23:57

European antisemitism. changes

24:00

the psychological dynamic. These

24:02

are two people locked into a cycle

24:04

of trauma, traumatizing each other

24:06

but also traumatized. We

24:08

tend to lose our humanity when we actually

24:11

approach this conflict. As far

24:13

as the pro-Palestinian movement that

24:15

still thinks about Algeria just

24:18

make Israel unlivable and they'll

24:20

all leave, you say

24:22

it's a dead end. I'm

24:25

saying that it's not desirable. The

24:28

objective is not simply to defeat

24:30

Israel, it's not simply to liberate

24:32

Palestine, it is also to give us a

24:34

country that we can live in. A country

24:36

that is liberated into a pile of rubble,

24:38

into a whirlpool of

24:40

pain, into pools of blood,

24:43

that is not a livable country. The

24:45

mistaken idea that in the conception

24:47

of many Palestinians but also pro-Palestinian,

24:50

this is still the Israel of

24:52

1948. This is still

24:54

an Israel which is basically mostly

24:57

European, white, settlers,

25:00

Jewish people coming basically from Europe.

25:03

This is not the case now, this is not today's Israel.

25:06

More than 60% of Israelis today have at

25:09

least full or partial Middle Eastern heritage,

25:11

you know, basically descended from Middle Eastern

25:13

Jews. The whole idea

25:15

that this is still a white settler

25:18

colony, it's not true anymore. You

25:21

wrote that decolonization doesn't mean

25:23

removing people, it means removing

25:25

domination and that's why South

25:27

Africa is a helpful model.

25:29

Because it is rooted in

25:31

values such as equality, coexistence,

25:33

humanity, integration. On the

25:35

other hand, there is a demographic reality here, through

25:39

that even in South Africa the white

25:41

population were always a minority. The

25:43

fact that we are talking about the demographic

25:45

reality where we have roughly 50% Palestinians, 50%

25:49

Jewish people, the premise of equality

25:51

here is far more applicable. We

25:53

have to think in intergenerational terms

25:55

because really I see a

25:58

lot of Palestinians but also Israelis now. asking

26:00

the question like, how can we live with these people after

26:02

what they have done? There's two

26:04

ways that I respond to this. The first is, soft

26:06

like you're going to live with these people. The question

26:09

is how? There are babies

26:11

who are going to be born tomorrow between

26:13

the river and the sea, from Jewish from

26:15

Palestinian. We have to ask

26:17

ourselves, what do we want for them 20 years or 30

26:20

years from now? Do we still want them

26:22

to be doing what they're doing right now? We would have

26:24

failed them. We would have failed our own children. Many

26:27

people discuss Palestinian liberation as a

26:29

clean reversal of 1948, the Nakba.

26:34

Edward Said, the late

26:37

prominent Palestinian-American scholar, warned

26:40

that obsession with the past

26:42

will doom a movement. I

26:45

think this difficulty of imagining the future

26:47

is itself an impact of trauma. The

26:50

Nakba being kind of an ongoing trauma,

26:52

it started but it never ended. When

26:54

you don't mourn the past, it remains in your

26:56

presence and it blocks your vision of the future.

26:59

Time only goes forward. We cannot undo

27:02

the past. We have to

27:04

be informed by the past, inspired by the

27:06

past. And maybe sometimes the past is a

27:08

cautionary tale, but in the

27:10

end, time only moves forward and liberation

27:12

itself has to only move forward. You

27:15

have observed that people who

27:17

have been systematically excluded end

27:21

up as nihilists or architects.

27:24

You are a stateless refugee until last

27:26

summer. Me

27:29

being a stateless refugee my

27:31

entire life has given me

27:33

this innate, almost automatic radicalism.

27:36

I'm 46 years old. I was

27:38

a stateless refugee until last summer. My

27:42

family left Yaffa in 1948. It

27:44

was my great grandfather, my grandfather, and my father who was

27:46

a toddler at the time. Yaffa, which

27:49

is now Tel Aviv. Exactly.

27:51

It's also four generations of statelessness. And what that does

27:53

to you is that you know that there is nothing

27:56

worth preserving for you in the current

27:58

world order. a very

28:00

important distinction here in how we speak about

28:02

this. We can either say it cannot

28:05

be reformed, this must be destroyed,

28:08

or we can say it cannot be reformed,

28:10

we have to build the replacement. The

28:13

first I would say is nihilistic. Well, I just

28:15

want to destroy it. Changing the

28:17

world, this kind of decolonial vision

28:19

is a task for entrepreneurs, for

28:21

architects, not for nihilists. We have

28:23

to have the imagination to build

28:25

a kind of mass movement. Premise

28:28

upon equality, premised upon solidarity, and

28:31

premised upon humanity. People

28:33

are starting to think that there

28:35

is no future in which a Jewish

28:38

person and a Palestinian person can live

28:40

together in peace in one country. But

28:43

this is exactly why we have to double down on it.

28:45

I don't think I'm the one who's dysfunctional for

28:47

thinking that democracy and humanity is the only thing

28:49

that can win. I really think

28:52

that anybody who thinks that anything else can

28:54

fix this is the one who's dysfunctional.

28:57

So what do you think a viable

29:00

movement for Palestinian liberation would

29:02

look like? Look,

29:04

this is not only going to be about

29:07

liberating Palestinians. Ultimately,

29:09

this is also about liberating

29:12

Jewish Israelis. It's really about

29:15

humanizing both the colonizer and the colonized.

29:18

Maybe I'm not the right person to speak about

29:20

this, but when I speak to my Jewish Israeli

29:22

friends, they say that they are not free, because

29:24

they're living in this entity which is always scared.

29:27

If you have to kill that many people in order to

29:29

feel safe, that means you're never going to feel safe. Colonialism

29:33

is not only brutal to the colonized,

29:35

but also to the soul of the

29:37

colonizer. And this decolonion

29:39

movement should be led by the colonized.

29:42

But this movement has to

29:44

center both peoples, building a

29:46

future for both peoples. This

29:49

is not going to be something that we're

29:51

going to fix in 10 years or 15 years. I'm

29:53

thinking 20 years and above. You

29:55

asked me a question like, is the Algeria

29:58

model possible or not? Even

30:00

if we acknowledge that it's possible, it's

30:02

going to require rivers of blood, a

30:04

lot of destruction. As a Palestinian, I

30:06

want a country that my children and

30:08

grandchildren can live in with full dignity,

30:10

with freedom, not a country without Jews.

30:15

If you listen to the rhetoric of

30:17

some of the members of the current

30:20

Israeli government and the leadership

30:22

of Hamas, there

30:25

are a lot of similarities. Neither

30:27

of them would really cotton to the

30:29

South Africa model. Yeah,

30:32

this is true. There is a

30:34

paradigm of partition and segregation and

30:36

domination. That's kind of premised

30:38

upon this idea of ethnic nationalism. There's another paradigm

30:40

here. I don't want to talk about the one-state

30:42

solution, but the paradigm here. The

30:44

paradigm is an integration paradigm. It's about

30:46

equality. It's about integration. It's about coexistence.

30:50

My premise is that this paradigm is the only thing

30:52

that can move forward. The path

30:54

in front of us from here, from post-October

30:56

7th, is the face of

30:58

sustained crisis, an actual zero sum,

31:01

where anything the Israelis get, they're going to

31:03

get by taking it away from Palestinians

31:06

or taking away Palestinians. And anything

31:08

that Palestinians can get, they're going to have to get

31:10

it by taking it away from Israelis. The

31:12

strategic nihilist is only a reflection of something much deeper,

31:14

which is the cycle of trauma that we're locked into.

31:18

Current politicians, current movements, etc., who

31:20

are locked into this old way of

31:22

thinking, all they're going to give us is more

31:24

of the same, more bloodshed, more

31:27

conflict, more violence, more war. Palestinians,

31:29

their backs are to the wall. They're being

31:31

starved. They're being bombed. They

31:34

feel like the only thing they can do is fight back. We

31:36

live in a two-state solution world. We live in a world

31:38

in which we have, for 75 years, we

31:41

decided that the solution over here is partition and

31:43

domination. We have two

31:45

paths. One path is completely blocked. The other

31:47

path is intergenerational and is very steep, and

31:49

is going to take a lot of work, but at least

31:52

it can get us there. The

31:55

history of the Jewish people is very long, very

31:57

well-documented history and a very proud history. The

32:00

state of Israel, this phase of history

32:02

which is marked by ethno-nationalism, is only

32:05

one chapter. I want Jewish

32:07

people to thrive in

32:09

the Middle East, in their native region, for a very

32:11

long time. Maybe the

32:13

prerequisite for that is to give

32:15

up on this idea of ethno-nationalism and to

32:18

embrace each other's brothers and sisters without questions

32:20

of who belongs and who doesn't belong. Up

32:23

until this summer, you were

32:26

stateless. What happened? Well,

32:29

I was granted Norwegian citizenship last summer. I remember at

32:31

that moment of time when I had to actually go

32:34

to the government office to give up my refugees travel

32:36

document. I mean, I don't think

32:38

a little tiny booklet has ever felt this

32:40

heavy in my hand. It

32:43

felt to me that I'm not gaining a

32:45

new identity or a new citizenship, but giving

32:47

up an identity. It almost sounds like a

32:49

betrayal of my ancestors who never made it

32:52

and many Palestinians who never made it. I remember

32:55

waking up the next morning. Summer

32:57

in Norway is beautiful and I live very central

32:59

Oslo and walked up to the terrace

33:01

in my apartment, looked out in all directions, and

33:05

I got this sense of immense love, a

33:07

physical feeling of love all over my body.

33:09

I was able to

33:11

say to myself, for the first time, this

33:13

is my country and these are my people.

33:16

Together, from this place of safety

33:19

and prosperity and privilege, we're

33:21

going to do everything that we can to heal our world. Yeah,

33:24

thank you very much. Thank you, Brooke.

33:27

Iyad El-Baghdadi is a human

33:29

rights activist, writer, and author of the

33:32

book, The Middle East

33:34

Crisis Factory, Tyranny, Resilience, and

33:36

Resistance. Coming

33:40

up after two years of war

33:42

in Ukraine, a close-up view of

33:44

20 excruciating days

33:46

in Mariupol. This

33:48

is On The Media. This

33:58

is On The Media. Michael O'Lanjur. And

34:01

I'm Brooke Gladstone. It's just

34:03

over two years since Russia launched

34:05

a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. And

34:07

there's no end yet in sight.

34:10

Ukrainian troops formed themselves as they

34:12

withdraw from our theater. Exhausted

34:16

after the longest and perhaps the bloodiest battle of

34:18

the war so far. Zelensky said his

34:20

soldiers had been outgunned 10 to

34:23

1 and made an urgent appeal for

34:25

more weapons from the international community. Last

34:28

week in Russia, polls will be

34:30

open for a full three days,

34:33

enabling citizens lots of time to

34:35

vote in Russian President Vladimir Putin

34:37

for a fifth, six-year term. All

34:40

of Putin's potential challengers have

34:43

been eliminated by legal means

34:45

or extralegal ones like

34:47

Putin's best-known nemesis Alexei Navalny,

34:50

who died under extreme duress

34:52

in an Arctic penal colony

34:55

on February 16. His

34:57

body was laid in the ground on

34:59

March 1, and two weeks later, Russians

35:01

are still paying their response. People

35:04

have been scheming into the graveyard every day

35:06

while it's open and lining up and waiting

35:09

to lay flowers. Valerie Hopkins

35:11

is an international correspondent at the

35:13

New York Times covering Russia. She

35:16

says that the mound of flowers on

35:18

Navalny's grave has grown so large that

35:20

you can barely make out the wooden

35:22

cross atop it. Some of the places

35:24

across Russia where people went to lay

35:26

flowers, they were asked to show their

35:28

passports, and some people

35:30

were arrested on the spot. Others

35:32

had law enforcement bodies coming to

35:34

their homes later. I

35:36

think it's quite a testament to how

35:39

beloved Alexei Navalny was, that

35:42

people are trekking out to a southern

35:44

suburb to really show their support for

35:46

someone that the Russian authorities consider

35:49

to be a terrorist and extremist,

35:51

and still, people are coming. More

35:55

than 400 people have been detained

35:57

across Russia for publicly paying

35:59

tribute. Navalny. In the same

36:01

week, one of Russia's

36:03

best known human rights activist,

36:05

Adeia Gorlov, was sentenced to

36:07

two and a half years

36:09

in jail because of his

36:11

opposition to the war. This

36:14

is someone who was part of a group of people

36:16

who won the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize. He's 70. He

36:19

was sentenced for the crime

36:22

of what's called, quote, repeatedly

36:24

discrediting the Russian armed forces.

36:27

And March 29 will mark one

36:29

year since Wall Street Journal reporter

36:31

Evan Gershkovich was arrested while doing

36:33

his job in Russia. Evan

36:36

is on the cover of this week's Time Magazine,

36:38

and I'm so

36:40

grateful. But I think he

36:42

just wants to be in Russia reporting about

36:44

this repression. Hopkins says

36:47

that Russians fear a new

36:49

mobilization after the election, as

36:51

Russia's Ukrainian quag mire

36:54

drags painfully on. But

36:56

as war fatigue and other global

36:58

conflicts push Ukraine's front line further

37:00

and further from the media spotlight,

37:02

a film that palpably conveys

37:05

the invasion's brutality is up

37:07

for an Oscar. In

37:10

February of 2022, Mr. Slav

37:12

Chernov, a video journalist for

37:14

the Associated Press, went to

37:16

Mariupol, the critical port city

37:18

on Ukraine's southeastern edge just

37:20

35 miles from the

37:23

Russian border. He arrived an hour before

37:25

the first bombs hit the city. What

37:28

Chernov chronicled over the next three weeks

37:30

is captured in the documentary 20

37:34

Days in Mariupol. He

37:36

was there as a reporter. Only

37:38

a fraction of his footage actually made

37:40

it to the outside world. But when

37:42

it did, it hit hard. AP

37:45

reporters on the ground showed the world

37:47

a mass grade in Mariupol. I'm talking

37:50

about narrow trenches in Mariupol

37:52

with babies bodies in AP

37:55

journalists that have been there since so many

37:57

takes. Who wins the information?

38:00

At every moment we get to see

38:02

what he sees and the warning. That's

38:10

pretty disturbing. We immediately

38:12

started here in explosions on

38:15

outskirts. There were flashes of

38:17

light you could see from the window. It

38:20

was still dark. The battle

38:22

was largely happening on the outskirts of the

38:24

city, military bases and

38:27

the trenches that were built there

38:29

for years. For a

38:31

while it was calm. There was no panic. Some people

38:33

went to work. It was quite

38:35

surreal because I had a feeling that

38:37

something horrible is coming. Judging

38:39

by just how Russia deals

38:42

with cities that it tries to attack.

38:45

How it was with Grozny. How it

38:47

was with Aleppo. Early

38:49

in the film you meet a panicked woman

38:51

crying, where shall I go? What shall I

38:53

do? And to calm her down you tell

38:55

her to go into a basement. They won't

38:58

shell civilian areas. And of course

39:00

they do. Later you see her

39:02

at a shelter and she reminds you of

39:04

your not so great advice. You

39:07

say, I'm sorry. I

39:10

feel like I am telling

39:12

the story of the community that I

39:14

am part of. And

39:16

sometimes it is kind of hard for

39:18

me to decide what's best to keep

39:21

filming or just to try to help.

39:24

That's kind of a core thought

39:26

which I wanted to

39:28

come through my narration. That I

39:30

am not a distant narrator. At

39:33

the same time I didn't want

39:35

to impose my emotions on your

39:37

audience. But in describing their

39:39

trauma, you're also describing your

39:41

own. It's evident in

39:43

your simple words of description, but

39:46

behind it, so much

39:48

weariness. That is

39:50

something that probably all Ukrainian

39:52

journalists feel and probably all

39:54

conflict journalists feel. One

39:57

of the most horrendous moments includes the

39:59

aftermath of the war. of a

40:01

maternity hospital bombing, incredibly

40:04

hard to watch. One very pregnant,

40:06

very injured woman is carried out on a

40:08

stretcher. We don't know her fate. But

40:11

then at a second hospital, you

40:13

find the doctor who treated her.

40:15

She said that her pelvis had

40:17

been shattered by the explosion and

40:20

that the mother and baby died.

40:22

Her name was Irina. They

40:25

said she screamed, kill me, when

40:28

they brought her. She

40:30

knew her child was dead. Nurses

40:35

getting sniped out, so many dead

40:37

babies. The kind of

40:39

thing that a news consumer in America

40:41

would never see on television. What

40:44

do you think about American mores when it

40:46

comes to war violence? It

40:48

is crucially important for the war

40:50

coverage not to be sanitized in any

40:53

way because if people

40:55

see only, let's say, light

40:58

version of the events, they

41:01

tend to accept war

41:03

and it's just unacceptable.

41:07

So we didn't sanitize anything

41:09

when we were editing. I

41:13

remember when Russia shut down MH-17 airplane

41:16

over a dumbass nine years ago. The

41:19

Malaysian airliners. Yeah, the Malaysian airlines.

41:21

I was one of the first

41:23

journalists at the scene, filmed

41:26

with hundreds of bodies scattered

41:28

across the fields and melted

41:31

plastic with human bones and

41:33

it was horrifying. Most

41:35

of those images never made it two

41:38

screens because it was really

41:40

too difficult. But I think if we

41:42

would be filming this now, we

41:44

could show much more. The limits

41:46

to what the international outlets are

41:49

showing to their viewers have

41:51

changed. There's just too many

41:54

war crimes. It's just impossible

41:56

to ignore it. And you're

41:58

not worried about... numbness

42:01

or empathy fatigue in viewers.

42:03

It's important to find balance.

42:05

You cannot just bombard audience

42:07

with blood and tears and

42:10

expect people to care all

42:12

the time. It

42:14

needs context to show people react

42:16

and how they feel. Speaking

42:19

of reaction, there were a few moments

42:21

in the film where you hear people

42:23

expressing disdain for

42:26

you and the crew being there. And then we

42:28

saw a lot of people feeling quite

42:30

the opposite. For most of the people,

42:32

it was a chance to

42:34

even just send message to

42:37

their relatives. People would just

42:39

come up to us on the street and ask

42:41

to film them. And then they would

42:44

just ask us, is Ukraine still

42:46

exists in the country? How

42:48

is Kiev doing? How is it? Where is

42:50

Kiev? Odessa? Is Ukraine army

42:52

resisting? And other people came and said,

42:55

please keep filming. And I think this

42:57

is also gives us

42:59

good understanding of how not

43:01

just the physical military siege works

43:04

on psychology of people, it's

43:06

also an information siege that

43:08

destroys the society. Which

43:11

brings to mind that

43:13

when Global TV used some

43:16

of your footage, Russian officials

43:18

specifically labeled the footage you were

43:20

able to get out from, say

43:23

the bombing at the maternity ward

43:25

or the mass graves as

43:28

propaganda. Yeah. They said we

43:30

are information terrorists and that we

43:32

staged everything. I think it's a part

43:35

of the story because the story is

43:37

not only what happens on the ground,

43:39

it's the ripples of the information that

43:42

is going across the

43:44

planet, influencing people. There's

43:47

a moment in the film that

43:49

might have not worked at all because

43:51

you leave the present moment and

43:54

you offer a montage of the terrible

43:56

trials of the Ukrainian People in recent

43:58

history. Oh. On

44:05

it I am. Revolution.

44:07

Of dignity. Crime. Me

44:09

as an extension. Russia's

44:12

invasion of months, the acrid

44:14

smell of violence and mates.

44:16

T seems to last. Off

44:18

the screen Sony. It's Airports.

44:23

Or. That seems endless. He.

44:26

keeps him. Since.

44:31

He. Have seen. Everything

44:35

upside down, That until it.

44:37

Offered some really essential context

44:40

and is coming after very

44:42

hard. Bowman's I break in

44:44

London's and I felt like

44:46

we all needed time to

44:48

reflect. And prepare

44:50

for what's coming next. That

44:53

you've mentioned elsewhere that the footage

44:56

was not taken the be a

44:58

Salem. it was simply news dispatches.

45:00

But further, the siege lands.

45:04

More will realize that we were the

45:06

only ones. The word. Ascending.

45:08

Anything from the city? Any information?

45:10

Any footage more. I knew that

45:12

I need to capture of a

45:14

minute. They're silly stories

45:16

I was just told about or

45:19

I got first hand but was

45:21

not able to film because I

45:23

was hiding. I was afraid and

45:26

that is a regret to probably

45:28

as if they theorized those stories.

45:31

Guess that's the only way to

45:33

the tell them. You need To Tell

45:35

them all. There's some poison.

45:37

Somehow to be told. The

45:39

story of a woman who

45:42

is sitting in a corridor

45:44

asked there. Were. With his

45:46

birth of a child in the

45:48

hospital and before we find out

45:50

that we are surrounded they aren't

45:53

sure whether. The child is alive

45:55

and they keep smacking it and

45:57

rubbing it. And

46:00

then suddenly this triumphant... And

46:05

the doctors told me that the birth is

46:07

just like a ray

46:09

of light from heaven for them. So

46:12

we walk back to the entrance of the

46:15

hospital and meet a woman who tells

46:17

the story of her children that were

46:20

killed by a cell in

46:23

their basement. And I

46:25

have a footage of those children. It's

46:27

not in a film. We thought it would be

46:30

just too much. But later on we found her

46:32

and we know that they buried

46:34

their children in the yard of their house.

46:37

And then they left the city through

46:39

the green corridor and they came back to

46:41

rebury the children.

46:44

And they didn't find them in the place where they

46:46

were supposed to be. And

46:48

they went through these hundreds of bodies that

46:51

were just piled up near the hospital to

46:53

try to find the bodies of their children.

46:56

And they did just before they

46:58

were dropped in the mass grave, like

47:01

to be lost forever. And

47:03

they gave them a proper burial. I'm

47:05

wondering about the policeman who helped you for

47:07

a while, Vladimir, who asked to make a

47:11

statement in front of the camera. Russian

47:15

troops commit war

47:19

crimes. Our

47:21

family, our women,

47:23

our children need help.

47:27

Our people need help

47:30

from international society. Please

47:32

help me open. I think

47:34

every war reporter, maybe every reporter,

47:37

faces this question eventually.

47:39

And they have to find an

47:42

answer. Do you really believe you

47:44

can make a difference? You

47:47

know, I face that question exactly in 2014. I'll

47:51

film in the image 17 And

47:54

I Thought the war is going to

47:56

stop when the world sees this footage

47:58

and it of course didn't. I

48:00

just got worse. So I

48:03

don't have a lot of

48:05

illusions about direct polar as

48:07

journalism. We are soldiers

48:09

weekend seems to course of events.

48:12

All we can do is keep

48:14

telling everyone about them but there

48:16

is something that was done. Some

48:18

family found their loved ones because

48:21

the so them in a photos

48:23

and videos. And. They were able

48:25

to teach them in a city and extract

48:27

them and saved the lives. Of

48:30

Dorothy's abused or with this

48:32

film to negotiate the green

48:34

corridor was also see blinds.

48:37

To this is like immediate.

48:40

Direct effect that we

48:42

can do whether. We

48:44

have an impact in the long term.

48:47

Eyes and I guess we'll see much

48:49

later when we look back. But.

48:51

Again, even if is just remain

48:54

and history. Even heard a

48:56

film remain as an evidence of

48:58

what happened in and the first

49:00

days of full scale invasion. That's

49:02

already a lot because we judge

49:04

the world around us by watch

49:07

the news and reduce lines to

49:09

our screens. We.

49:11

Understand our past two

49:14

cinema to documentary films,

49:17

films, books, That's.

49:19

Where this this films or important

49:21

for a generation starts to com.

49:25

What do you want us to take away. From this.

49:28

I. Definitely. Or. Or. Wants

49:30

us to take away hope

49:32

and the to viewers. Take a

49:35

way home from this film. Despised

49:37

so much desperation hopes

49:40

coming through because people

49:42

see how Ukraine's resist

49:45

how to survive that

49:48

desperation. Does. Not give

49:50

us strength. To. Keep

49:52

going. Hope does. What?

49:55

Do you think is the most? Helpful moments in your

49:57

found. The birth to a child.

49:59

Yeah, After what we've seen, after

50:01

all the children, That. Have

50:04

died. Knowing the deceased

50:06

just a tiny fraction of what

50:08

happened. Seen that a child was

50:10

born and it's healthy and now

50:13

we know his child survived. That

50:15

is the that is the most

50:18

crucial moment for me in a

50:20

film. In the most hopeful

50:22

Ah. Thank you

50:24

so much. Think to you Mr.

50:26

Slots are not as a journalist

50:29

and director of the Twenty Twenty

50:31

Three documentary twenty Days in Marry

50:34

A Poll is also a novelist.

50:36

his latest is closed between. That's

50:58

it for this week. So on.

51:00

The Media is produced by Eloise

51:02

Blondie, oh Molly Roseanne, Rebecca Clark

51:05

Calendar and Ten is Wrong with

51:07

help from Sean Merchant. Our technical

51:09

director is Jennifer Months our engineers

51:11

this week for and who Nervy

51:13

I know and Brendan Dalton Start

51:15

your Rogers and Sour. Executive Producer

51:17

on The Media is a production

51:20

of W N Y C Studios.

51:22

I'm for Gladstone and I'm Mike

51:24

Alone, Sir.