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Visit servicenow.com/AI for people

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to learn more. Hi

1:32

everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox

1:34

Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara

1:36

Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. Today

1:38

we're going to do a deep dive into Elon

1:40

Musk. I know, I know. Not because

1:42

Enrios wants to spend more time thinking about

1:44

Elon, but because I'm sorry to tell you

1:47

he's very influential and it's impossible to ignore

1:49

him just for that. So

1:51

I've rounded up three of the smartest reporters

1:53

covering Elon for our conversation. I promise it

1:55

will be substantive about his businesses and where

1:57

they're going. Kirsten Grind is a...

2:00

That Indications reporter for the New York

2:02

Times. She was at the Wall Street

2:04

Journal until recently where she is done

2:06

investigations into a loss, drug use and

2:08

how he parties with his company's board

2:10

members who have benefited immensely. For

2:12

being so acquiescence. I

2:14

would say lapdogs. Tim Higgins is

2:16

the author of Power Play, Tesla,

2:18

Elon Musk and the Bat of

2:21

the Century, and a columnist at

2:23

the Wall Street Journal and his

2:25

weekly column is quote mostly been

2:27

on entirely about Elon Musk and

2:29

it is very funny and Becky

2:31

Peterson, tubers, Tesla and Spacex and

2:33

all things Ilan for the information

2:35

or expert question comes from a

2:37

billionaire who's been infected apparently with

2:40

the Woke Mine virus on Musk

2:42

is called him a moron. And

2:44

that would the servant. So

2:58

I brought you all three together. Not to

3:00

talk about Scarlett Johanson, but help us understand

3:02

where we are in the Elon Musk story

3:04

and was all means this company says that

3:07

up to a lot lately. it seems old

3:09

even though he sucks or the Us know

3:11

the room. he seems to be politically sucking

3:13

these days. But let's start with Tesla, the

3:16

most valuable. Oh, the companies in the lawns

3:18

orbit, and also of course the iconic companies

3:20

that have made him the personality he is

3:22

today, I think so. unless to know how

3:25

each of you all. Assess it

3:27

over all tim than Kyrstin

3:29

than thirty? Years. At

3:31

Tesla has long been are you

3:33

on Mosques spicy mistress right? Spacex

3:35

has been his first, love his

3:37

his wife but Tussaud's that drought

3:39

drama that are just keeps getting

3:41

as attention but still must get

3:43

the sense in recent years and

3:46

maybe spend a little bit bored

3:48

with it. right? Model Three once

3:50

it was successful was successful and

3:52

he another all these other things

3:54

that were kind of getting his

3:56

attentions. Clearly Tesla as and a

3:58

lot her car maker has really

4:00

been a game changer for the

4:02

world, right? It has shown regulators

4:04

and rivals that an electric car

4:06

could be cool, could be profitable,

4:08

could be desirable, and has helped

4:10

move the world towards the V.

4:12

That said it, their is a

4:14

little bit of a precipice. Where

4:16

are they going next is a

4:18

little unclear. Is an electric car

4:20

company or is it a robot

4:22

company which is the way that

4:24

you on is now talking about

4:26

it Or in to. See, you don't

4:29

have to stick with them with the mistress

4:31

board and Ireland very molony a here but

4:33

but he seems more the go ahead that

4:35

what are your thoughts on that sometime? I

4:37

do like. That analogy that I mean

4:39

it really kind of seems like

4:41

that's some kind of crisis point at

4:43

this stage right? at sort of. in

4:46

this transformation is ten sad Ilan I'd

4:48

I'd Breed does seem board but on

4:50

the other hand it would be

4:52

super painful from both him and

4:54

Tesla is t last. A lot

4:56

of high level senior executives including as

4:59

close to him have left recently. They're

5:01

obviously and this fight over his pay

5:03

package so it's I don't know, It's

5:06

a it's a really interesting. To

5:08

decade. He. I think

5:10

there's always a question of whether Tesla

5:12

is. A car company Or a tech

5:14

company and. Ilan is once again something

5:16

into the to be arguing it's an

5:19

Ai company and we shouldn't be paying

5:21

attention to the cars. And

5:23

slowing of car sales though. Are

5:25

driving all. These dramatic cuts and

5:27

a lot of the concern not

5:29

the success, so I don't think

5:32

that we can say definitively that

5:34

it's either, but he's definitely change

5:36

convince people that the car part

5:38

of the. Journey is over. Yeah,

5:40

he's a be hand waiver. Obviously that

5:42

is to see mention last month three

5:44

top executives resign during a to expand

5:46

their a long time executives. True a

5:48

bag Lena was a senior vice president.

5:50

Power train and energies that around long

5:52

time. I think it's Martin's it deters

5:55

the Vice President of Investor relations and

5:57

row have to tell the Vice President

5:59

of. Policy. Development are all gone

6:01

to says normal I know I have covered

6:03

text companies for years in a new have

6:05

covered many com These people change at the

6:07

as he started the skill that rich and

6:10

they move on and you know many companies

6:12

that this has happened to. This is an

6:14

unusual group of people to have left and

6:16

important people at this moment. The. Seems unusual

6:18

yes I mean even for Tesla

6:20

were executives are either being pushed

6:22

out or fired or leaving because

6:24

they can't handle the workload or

6:26

Ilan or whatever. It as this

6:28

is the seems like a moment

6:30

and time where a lot of

6:32

people are leaving out once an

6:34

important people. It reminds me of

6:36

and of other periods of dramatic

6:38

and of upheaval that we've seen

6:40

over the course of tough was

6:42

limited history right? This is a

6:45

company that's about twenty years old

6:47

and we seem. To. See these huge swings

6:49

were in a lot of ways you

6:51

on kind of reinvent the company. First

6:53

it was when he took over as

6:55

Ceo after the company been around for

6:57

a few years and kind of to

6:59

be kind of evolving hit into the

7:01

as of the next round going to

7:03

the Model S and the we saw

7:05

it again it the painful a birthing

7:07

of the of the model Three and

7:09

seventeen twenty team period and now you

7:11

can I get the same impression that

7:13

it is the at the precipice of

7:15

something for not quite sure but. It

7:18

is a brutal place. It can be

7:20

a brutal place to work and a

7:22

We have seen a lot of key

7:24

leaders over the time leave and and

7:26

part of that is and Illinois even

7:28

seems to act. As

7:31

if he doesn't have the luxury of as

7:33

keeping people around and some kind of America.

7:35

As for all these are the tools that

7:38

he as in his tool box and is

7:40

going to deploy them in the way he

7:42

wants to do for the current crisis right?

7:44

right? No valid and desks right. It's exactly

7:46

the the one big thing here I think

7:48

is Druze departure I think was very jarring

7:50

to long time observers there was a guy

7:52

who really been around since the beginning who

7:55

in waterways and kind of was kind of

7:57

her victory the over from Jb struggles departure.

7:59

he'd been answered one of the founders and

8:01

had been a close ally of J B

8:03

and his departure. Really I think shocked a

8:05

lot of people because he was kind of

8:07

the the you know one of the hold

8:09

back to the original crew that was their.

8:12

Taxes and your had a lot

8:14

of support from employees and a

8:17

sink him along with Zach current

8:19

foreign Cfl leaving last year. There.

8:22

Is a lot of stress. Tesla

8:24

decide to resell the executives bench

8:26

again. There. Was a big

8:28

efforts convince people that it wasn't

8:30

us a line at the top.

8:32

there's all these lovable people who

8:35

are running different products and who

8:37

employees, laws and investors can look

8:39

up to. and now a handful

8:41

of them are gone and that

8:43

affects both employees. Anniversaries else are.

8:45

Mostly. He likes to be at the center of

8:47

every think. it's all new even know. Many years

8:50

ago Steve Jobs said. To me, I'm not really want

8:52

and they're not. In the long as there's lots

8:54

of people here in L A said. He actually

8:56

did think he didn't even know he. Called attention to

8:58

himself because he knew that cell phones I

9:00

don't think he relished at. I think Philip

9:02

Elon really truly relishes that idea. Of the

9:04

Savior complex but in in February he

9:06

he did scrapped plans for the Tesla

9:09

model to the twenty five thousand dollar

9:11

electric car he'd been promising for years

9:13

even though it was almost ready for

9:15

production on he first had savored and

9:17

folks to lot of attention on the

9:19

glitch prone cyber truck which has been

9:21

a bust and now he's so good

9:24

on robo taxis and it's a I

9:26

efforts especially around full self driving chimp

9:28

that's what what's going on here with

9:30

this big as this was something that.

9:32

Everybody thought he should do in order to

9:34

really solidify it's huge market share which has

9:37

been declining. He. Seems to be

9:39

telling the world that robot cars are

9:41

the future that A eyes features in

9:43

Illinois, though it seems as if he's

9:46

acting as if the Chinese animators have

9:48

already. One is great. Race to the

9:50

bottom to take our costs to make

9:52

to ease, affordable or as affordable or

9:55

even cheaper as he wills. And no

9:57

gas powered cars and universe had been

9:59

the. Oh for so long and

10:01

the way he's acting now that the

10:03

idea that it is it the cheaper

10:06

battery powered car is not the future,

10:08

but it is just. You

10:10

know, kind of a step towards a robot

10:13

taxis you know it is. Sending a message

10:15

is to some on Wall Street of that's

10:17

kind of where he's taken us, where he

10:19

sees the profitability, the high margins isn't this

10:22

kind of next leap forward and technology. And

10:24

the challenge here is that Tesla doesn't have

10:26

a robot vehicle on the roads that we

10:29

know of. At this point they have not

10:31

demonstrated the ability like Way More has. and

10:33

the streets of San Francisco where on a

10:35

regular basis I see cars go by without

10:38

people in them at all. and Tesla hasn't

10:40

shown. That ability. And so that's

10:42

One of the big challenges here

10:44

is that he's painting a future

10:46

of Tesla being a software company

10:48

that generates money from these robot

10:50

taxis and ai and humanoid robots

10:52

and not so much caring about

10:55

that the metal bashing business of

10:57

making cars and. You

10:59

know, right now though, most of the revenue comes from

11:01

sonos. course. So. Betty when new doing as he

11:03

said of States little I saw this on the sabbath

11:05

of It's Ending Assistant. At stance.

11:07

I honestly think it's a steady state in

11:09

that he that he he won an area

11:11

that he was doing very well and was

11:14

the supercharger area and he fired the supercharge

11:16

a teeny the now. The charging up for

11:18

his been touted by him as a huge

11:20

competitive advantage and he had struck a deal

11:22

with other automakers to share. It's now is

11:24

rehired some of them though not without that

11:26

to new to another well regarded executive there

11:28

who had resisted pads necking. What is. Happening

11:31

here, what with Supercharger? Ya,

11:33

the supercharger network was considered one of

11:35

the best things Tesla has done. It

11:37

was this huge accomplishment for them and

11:39

it was a huge selling plane to

11:41

customers who were wondering if they could

11:44

take their Tesla is on long road

11:46

trips. Tried them across the country. The

11:48

Biden administration has bet that Tesla supercharging

11:50

network will convince nonsense The divers says.

11:53

Dr. Easy's because they can charge

11:55

them on the network, so firing

11:57

a whole team is really confusing

11:59

for people. We're on a team

12:01

to people who are building the

12:03

Supers harder than have contracts have

12:06

a land reserves and that they

12:08

were expecting to become a Supercharger.

12:11

Ah, I don't think we really

12:13

know what is happening. But.

12:16

People are coming back. Maybe his realized

12:18

his mistake but I think they're so

12:20

question about how small the team. Tesla.

12:23

Can have running this huge network. What

12:25

guided the decision making process is or

12:27

as you can tell. It. Seems

12:30

like he might have gotten upset that

12:32

Rebecca Snooty had not laid off and

12:34

of people on. Our team and tried

12:36

to make an example of her. Bills.

12:39

Anyone else to him. But. You know

12:41

this is we've we've seen could have is

12:43

dramatics, decisions that he makes and announces the

12:46

great fanfare and and pulls back or readjust.

12:48

In the past I think about twenty nineteen

12:50

when he announced that he's basically didn't wear

12:52

them all the stores ran as for been

12:54

a long time during for Tesla to sell

12:56

cars is directly on that on the internet

12:59

and yet old and old. Lo and behold

13:01

there was all these contracts for his leases.

13:03

Are these facilities around the world and or

13:05

in and by the by the way it

13:07

also stores of are important for cel incarcerating

13:09

and people need to. Be convinced of sometimes

13:12

to get over the line to buy those vehicles

13:14

and socks and waterways it feels like and of

13:16

classic you on and that. You

13:18

know he likes to is to suit and

13:21

then think about it later when see maybe

13:23

the decision is is maybe not. As said

13:25

didn't play out the way he wanted are

13:27

able to get kind of gets a little

13:29

bit of the way he can operate as

13:31

a manager and which is kind of beliefs

13:33

and this power of momentum and the idea

13:35

that why would this be a momentum in

13:37

the early nineties it will raise the idea

13:39

that think people are moving fast enough food

13:41

chains wasn't occurring at the pace that he

13:43

wanted as so he's just gonna start burning

13:45

it all down right? We saw the said

13:47

twitter turned acts. He likes to

13:49

select chaos fears over. One of the folks

13:52

that I've talked to of the years talks

13:54

about chaos, right? He thrives in this chaos

13:56

and sees kind of what shakes out of

13:58

the and right doesn't always work out, but

14:00

he does like the appearance of movement. Cares

14:03

if it's the same time there is reality test

14:05

as. Interim Multiple Federal Investigations putting

14:07

a criminal probe. By the date D

14:09

O J a single probed by the Fcc

14:11

a total of that about them and how

14:14

concern should test or investors the you're sitting

14:16

about these problems and what's the role of

14:18

the board here in in this in these

14:20

probe Ah so that's. My favorite

14:22

subjects: Okay Landlord sir,

14:25

I'm. You know, London.is.

14:27

Extremely surprising about has led some

14:29

he just six hundred. Get to

14:32

your first point is how little

14:34

the investors seem to care as

14:36

well as the director's about he

14:38

lawns and sex or really anything

14:41

surrounding. Kind of liked his personal

14:43

life. For these at these government

14:45

probes or anything like this arm

14:47

or death as a human citizen

14:50

I would say you should tear.

14:52

On they never seem. To

14:54

really care. Ah, I'm you know,

14:56

as you know over the years

14:59

the government has tried serious ways

15:01

to look into Tesla and to

15:03

go after them and nothing really

15:06

ever seen. Six sign of pan

15:08

out or debt track San Arms

15:10

The latest we wrote about Arm

15:13

at the Wall Street Journal when

15:15

I was there was about this

15:17

class house right he was building

15:20

but Ilan was allegedly using Tesla

15:22

resources to build this. Glass House

15:24

and Texas. Whether or not she

15:26

was using the resources with is

15:29

kind of the point of contention.

15:31

but there was like a secret

15:33

team working on this house that

15:35

Tesla and so the whole issue

15:38

was was Tesla and it's employees

15:40

being used for something personal. and

15:42

you know.nothing's, come of that yet.

15:44

These things are slow moving so.

15:47

It is. It's hard to say whatever comes

15:49

have any of the it can talk about

15:51

the boards role here because they really don't

15:53

have a role. It seems that they've always

15:55

to me than entering. The count of new set

15:57

of lapdogs to heal on. The. Several

15:59

them. The say if people are know. And

16:01

it's at Delaware. Judge voided emotions as sixty

16:04

Fifty six doing now pay package. The board

16:06

is currently. Campaign to Get it's

16:08

reinstated. especially the Chairperson Robin

16:11

Denholm. Explain what's

16:13

happening here and the role the board

16:15

place. But. You know there's a couple ways. Look

16:17

at the board rights. As an

16:19

investor, you might be kind of happy

16:21

with the board or given the results

16:23

of the stock over the past ten

16:25

years Writes another way of looking at

16:27

it is. You

16:29

know, are they really keeping him

16:31

totally engaged as Ceo of Tesla

16:33

right? The idea that giant pay

16:35

package and twenty eighteen was concerned

16:38

that he has all these other

16:40

things to occupy as time that

16:42

he has a wandering eye for

16:44

entrepreneurial is Amanda activities and was

16:46

poster really get him to have

16:48

taken. Of me nail down there and

16:50

be fully engaged in a in a lot

16:52

of ways. It did help and the and

16:54

from how he brought out the model three

16:57

of shares went to the moon, became the

16:59

world's most valuable automaker and in turn made

17:01

him ah among the world's richest men. But

17:04

are you know? he also became kind of

17:06

busy with Twitter and all these other things.

17:08

and now the question I think in some

17:10

investors' minds as they being asked to reauthorize

17:13

that pay package is is he really engaged?

17:15

Is the are they really getting You know

17:17

fully the full. Time you on and

17:19

he wants people would say Well yes,

17:22

he's very committed and he works very

17:24

hard and whatnot. But it's obvious that

17:26

he undeniable that is Calendars is so

17:28

much more busier than twenty teenage he

17:30

has access. He has his start off

17:33

Arrayah company called X Say I. He

17:35

has essentially threatened to take a A

17:37

I in robotics ideas that he has

17:39

a Tesla elsewhere. If he's that's a

17:41

given a twenty five percent control. The

17:43

company which raises the kind of question

17:46

of is he got one foot out

17:48

the door. Or not, especially as he's trying

17:50

to frame the company as an Ai company.

17:52

isn't that? Used to what's happening with a sport.

17:54

That and. So. Ah I

17:57

have to say I think. This for and

17:59

as unlike. The board I've ever

18:01

seen and covering does less. I'm

18:03

so just talking about the pay

18:06

package when it was approved, the

18:08

share of the board or the

18:10

chair of the compensation committee Ira

18:12

Air and Price to prove that

18:15

Pay Packets Long time friend of

18:17

Yeah Yes has invested and many

18:19

of his company's more than seventy

18:21

million we sound and he wants

18:24

companies has had made more than

18:26

two hundred million and soft on

18:28

Tesla has literally like. Side he

18:30

loves Ilan right arm also still

18:33

on the Tesla board. His brother

18:35

another in so called like independent

18:37

board member at the time that

18:39

pay package was approved was someone

18:41

who sees literally done drugs west

18:44

over the years. Antonio Gras Cs

18:46

I'm also invested in all of

18:48

you on companies partied with them

18:50

the case and with ten the

18:52

list kind of just goes on

18:54

and on. Even Rob and

18:57

Denholm. That share of the Tesla

18:59

board who arm to her credit

19:01

I guess does not party with

19:04

you on has still made an

19:06

enormous amount of money from being

19:08

a board chair. More than two

19:10

hundred, almost three hundred million clear

19:13

found. Unprecedented. It's a unprecedented

19:15

said and I have to say

19:17

I was shocked when I saw

19:19

her recent very rare interview and

19:22

asked T on. About what

19:24

see sees her role as at

19:26

the company and see literally sad

19:28

wow I don't think it's my

19:30

role. sucks I have like and

19:32

I'm I'm not reading from it

19:34

so I'm paraphrasing here, but she

19:36

said something like i don't think

19:38

it's my role to like Police

19:41

Yuan's antics. Well actually that's. Exactly.

19:44

What her role as. And in

19:46

fact there's an Fcc settlement from

19:48

twenty scene where see is literally

19:50

supposed to be policing his tweets

19:53

play Smite so as just completely

19:55

hands off the sports and my

19:57

opinion. It absolutely is. He also

19:59

said. Parental parental then it's later

20:01

fight a magic wand. Twitter wouldn't exist

20:03

yeah but to that. Shows headache by

20:05

it's like her had a great that's

20:08

our dogs. Exactly. The

20:14

beginning of. This

20:29

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Chef so even expert send us a question this when

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the so different the sun. Comes from my favorite

23:40

and be a team owner Mark Cubin

23:42

let's hear it. And

23:44

my name is Mark Cubin and

23:46

under cofounder of Cost Plus drugs.com

23:48

all the many Australia separate whose

23:50

name is talks, artist or talks

23:52

anywhere. Put. Him in any situation

23:54

and without telling him anything, he'll be able

23:57

to figure out what's safe and what's not

23:59

safe. He's smarter than any

24:01

artificial intelligence out there today, which

24:03

makes me wonder if artificial intelligence

24:06

is not as smart as talks.

24:08

How are we going to get

24:10

full service driving? Thanks. So

24:14

I like a good don't want to take

24:16

this on first that they about that I'll

24:18

take a decade ago while I was a

24:20

New York City. I don't drive a car

24:22

and ah but people get hit by cars

24:25

in the see all the time. I think

24:27

that the dream as are all the cars

24:29

are talking to each other and they don't

24:31

have to be perfect because the system works

24:33

better. Than. Human drivers. Starts

24:36

Not the World we live in

24:38

in San Francisco. We see actual

24:41

eponymous vehicles. Like we're now getting

24:43

stuck behind fire trucks, getting stuck

24:45

behind plastic bags blowing in the

24:48

wind. The products are getting better.

24:50

They're being developed that they right

24:53

now are. Only both worked really

24:55

well in really. Specific. Environments.

24:58

I think it's going to be slow and I think.

25:01

I mean that's probably one reason why they're over

25:03

taxis. such a big fat because it's hard to

25:05

see who's going to be buying them and

25:07

house in they're going to be buying them. I

25:10

think it's nonsense and his hand waving nonsense is

25:12

a great dreams that you know I'd like to

25:14

flights my wings to but a circus Eleven

25:16

cats and heard about Spacex. Speaking of flying with

25:18

seems like a bright spot for mosque right now.

25:21

No one can compete with a starling. Service for

25:23

their competitors coming as always and as a recent

25:25

journal are all to put it, Spacex is

25:27

one of the investing world's most exclusive clubs. Everybody

25:30

wants to get in on this. Idea when

25:32

it goes public, it's Seal. Oh ugly.

25:34

Shotwell is perhaps the most stable executive

25:36

working with Mosque as good relationships with

25:38

the government. Excedrin at your said I

25:40

would you take them out A Spacex

25:43

seemingly? Avoid some of the management drum

25:45

that have sex, tesla and acts will

25:47

they might not. Be avoiding it,

25:49

We just don't know, because they're

25:51

a private company, right? So they're

25:53

able to really keep a lot

25:55

of things under wraps. especially like

25:58

how the oversight is working. Both

26:00

on the government and some A.is

26:02

at least public, but still extremely

26:04

hard to penetrate, understanding their relationships

26:06

with the various government contractors. and

26:08

then of course again with their

26:11

boards. It's hard to tell who

26:13

even is on the board there

26:15

at any given time. It's a

26:17

private company so there could definitely

26:19

be drama, but it does also

26:21

seem like you on kind of

26:23

treat. Spacex is like a safe

26:25

haven where he moves. you know,

26:28

executives who aren't doing so well.

26:30

As other companies Lindsay moves, his buddies

26:32

seem to have it sent off the

26:34

tests on board. he's so on the

26:37

Spacex board, for example, so he does

26:39

kind of shuffled things around Spacex. Said

26:41

it's gonna go public presumably. Yeah

26:43

the I Pm is like people

26:45

are so excited about it. People are

26:48

talking about all the time And Iran

26:50

England has been said that it's far

26:52

away. I don't think that they

26:55

are during the process right now. I don't think

26:57

they like are filing an s one anytime soon.

27:00

But. Everyone wants them to go public.

27:02

Physicists Complication that they have Starlink

27:04

and that this giant company they

27:06

have government contracts that they don't

27:08

necessarily want to have like under

27:10

the scrutiny of Se Seer the

27:12

public markets. I'm so there's some

27:14

questions about how it would even

27:17

be structured by. It

27:19

really impacts how people interact with musk

27:21

like with the X a I fundraising

27:23

I talk to people who said basically

27:26

the. Have no choice but

27:28

to like participate because they want

27:30

access. They want to maintain access.

27:32

And that Spacex I've yo is

27:35

the ultimate access. That's. Correct. Yes,

27:37

a great carrot. That tim you

27:39

as an article about Moscow Musk which

27:41

I love this as some critics and

27:43

call them a may have done that

27:45

and they say he's up to an

27:47

apologist. Certain more shilling for Russia must

27:50

says is companies have quote probably done

27:52

more to undermine rosette than anything and

27:54

quotes explain the country's a and then

27:56

way and he certainly does like the

27:58

sidle up to dictators athena. Favorite

28:00

movie! Is the mosque doctrines

28:02

I wanted? I that's a Cc Very

28:04

I will you be instrumental Do First

28:07

of all of these starlings has been

28:09

helpful in the Ukraine side of the

28:11

war. Soon I'm and if anyone was

28:13

considered cheered on as a hero for

28:15

for his and for allowing that and

28:17

helping that show up at then he

28:19

really surprised a lot of folks when

28:22

he wouldn't enable that satellite internet service

28:24

and a part of Crimea were the

28:26

he trains wanted to attack the Russians

28:28

and he was worried it would kind

28:30

of trigger a. Nuclear war really just

28:32

elevate things to and eleven and he

28:35

said it he he's wouldn't do it

28:37

because that and a put him really

28:39

this kind of interesting position where he

28:41

is this citizen of the world is

28:44

making decisions that affect wars and really

28:46

elevated that kind of the power that

28:48

he has over the kind of idiot

28:50

world events now a very unique way.

28:53

That has kind of you know concern

28:55

people and it's of is it in

28:57

his comments that have followed regarding put

29:00

an end in the Russians had kind

29:02

of pushing for peace talks and be

29:04

raising ideas for how that would work

29:06

at just to lot of experts. Lot

29:08

of close observers of foreign affairs am

29:10

just smacks of of kind of influence

29:12

from the Russian sign out. Musk would

29:15

say that he doesn't say I didn't

29:17

talk to put in and that sort

29:19

of thing but he does seem to

29:21

be favoring the party line or which

29:23

then. When you put into consideration kind

29:25

of the role that Spacex is playing

29:27

and global affairs worry some people just

29:29

more thought of people like tell you

29:31

that sidle up to me at Washington

29:33

parties all the time. That

29:35

has also does a lot of business

29:37

in China. Spacex is a U and

29:39

military. Contractors. You just know it's.

29:42

In February former Congressman My Gallagher

29:44

said that star she'll which had

29:46

military version is telling wasn't working

29:48

for American troops in and around

29:50

Taiwan. Spacex denied the allegations. Peggy

29:52

what's happened since Severe and setting

29:54

that tells the Pentagon managing Ilan

29:56

seemingly slit allegiances in China he

29:58

just frequently was. They're striking a

30:01

deal to be able to sell

30:03

more of those Corsair taco. good

30:05

about that. That complications for him

30:07

and for the U S. I

30:09

think the Federal government isn't the

30:11

same position as a lot of

30:13

musk investors were they have to

30:15

sort of balance access and getting

30:18

their own needs met. In the

30:20

case of national security interests, they

30:22

probably have a lot more. Leverage.

30:25

I'm not really sure what's happening on the inside

30:27

with I anybody else and China where he is

30:29

because he's made some statements that were. Pretty.

30:32

Pro: Chinese sent messages it's it's interesting

30:34

raise you go to the revenues. Acclaim

30:36

from China for Tesla! Huge from porn

30:38

part of the bus really helped Tesla.

30:41

Get. To where it is in large

30:43

part by allowing Tussles before the first

30:45

Western Automaker to open up a factory

30:47

without a joint venture in the country,

30:50

allowing it to fuel massive, rapid growth

30:52

during the pandemic. Allowing

30:54

it to really be kind of be

30:56

word is now see put them the

30:58

back here mine and and you see

31:01

these pro kind of china com and

31:03

so he's often making and I'm siding

31:05

with china is the debate over out

31:07

and of were Taiwan sits under that

31:09

scenario and if it a kid Murray's

31:11

people and he gets back to the

31:14

issue of Russia worries people right and

31:16

a son of alluded to that guy

31:18

think of it as the Musk doctrines

31:20

where he has business in countries where.

31:23

Maybe their moral or us more tougher

31:25

of ruling ruling us a leaders that

31:27

it or us have stronger Og grasp

31:30

are saying. he seems very deferential but

31:32

in other countries such as the U

31:34

he's very quick to go after every

31:36

level of power and uses that in

31:38

some ways. Is that defiance as part

31:41

of his powers that he gains and

31:43

in places like to you as you

31:45

don't wanna be a government official in

31:47

the Us being attacked by you on

31:49

musk is not just him, it's is

31:52

echo verse us of followers. On Acts

31:54

who than amplified com every criticism and

31:56

every attacks to the point where it's

31:58

very hard to to. The politician in

32:01

the country and be under attack

32:03

like that. So the South about

32:05

Twitter x Families now fully and

32:07

officially acceptance. By an and

32:09

he is not Ceo but in the Cel

32:11

that effort he knows kind of. Recently was

32:13

a punchline at the Network of Friends and

32:15

everywhere she goes to show that cheap as

32:18

it is he created with.mom and blew up

32:20

than. In. Her say son because

32:22

of him on being upset about it. Let's

32:25

talk about the business of X right

32:27

now. packet. Yeah. We we

32:29

don't have a lot of insight

32:31

into how well ad sales are

32:33

doing. Think it's still pretty much

32:35

an odd run business. The subscription

32:37

business is not very popular. I

32:40

personally and subscribing right now because I wanted

32:42

to try graft and see how. It

32:44

works. I don't have any

32:46

sort of daily sawyer. says.

32:49

Like kind of sarcastic news summary.

32:52

But. There are people who are paying

32:54

for it. I think it's still mostly

32:56

sort of like that. Ilan Stand Universe

32:58

are people who are trying to become

33:00

influences on the platform. And

33:02

Tim yeah is it is an ad business

33:04

doesn't seem to. It's clearly not what it

33:06

wants. War, decline right? Foods. But. If

33:09

you think about it is something else.

33:11

It's really an extension of his power.

33:14

has soft power. It's definitely having influence

33:16

right? A He's been embraced by a

33:18

lot of people. It's expanded his recent

33:21

a certain areas. It's definitely given him

33:23

a bigger voice and month global affairs

33:25

in a way that you don't typically

33:27

see with most Ceos arm so it

33:30

in that regard it as an interesting

33:32

tune. As Toolbox Re, he goes from

33:34

the guy who had probably the biggest

33:37

reach as a user. Or

33:39

least among the biggest reach as user to now.

33:41

Nobody can take him off of it right in

33:43

and it gives him carte blanche to do kind

33:45

of whatever he wants and as long as people

33:47

are continue to go to it and people seem

33:49

to keeps engaging on that gives him a lot

33:52

of power with Friday does have a he was

33:54

just the car guy before and now. He says

33:56

south's at times recently published in investigation deal

33:58

until issue is right wing. His bike

34:00

have a a Malays Argentina Gyr boasts

34:02

a narrow in Brazil neurons Modi in

34:05

India and the basic that the his

34:07

lavish them the public phrase usually on

34:09

twitter and then gotten several treatment for

34:12

companies from them to since. Talk about

34:14

this twitter diplomacy when he was buying

34:16

twitter it will ever miss at of

34:18

perplexed but a very sharp Dell billionaires

34:21

told me he bought the company for

34:23

international influence for his other businesses more

34:25

than anything else I have that born

34:28

itself out Yeah definitely. I mean it's

34:30

interesting because the twitter thing as

34:32

kind of to separate friends coming

34:34

together right? soaps. Immediately after he

34:36

bought twitter he kind of rearrange

34:38

all the systems and the algorithm

34:40

to make sir of was. Preferential.

34:43

To have right and you can even

34:45

to see that going on there now

34:48

and so now this is spread and

34:50

says his odds are you know and

34:52

saw that he wishes to have which

34:54

I just as one of a diplomat

34:57

because he really wants to be involved

34:59

and all these international affairs and much

35:01

like he was doing at twitter he's

35:03

now kind of like leaning on these

35:06

world leaders. His buddies were armed to

35:08

get stuff done. yeah. And. Is

35:10

that effective? Is that it is that worth the

35:12

price of the money is paid for it. I

35:14

think in some cases. That is a factor

35:16

of, as you pointed out my

35:18

colleagues wrote about recently, it is

35:21

effective. Sometimes I personally think it's

35:23

so funny this bromance he hogs

35:25

with like Argentinians my leg right?

35:27

I mean all the pictures and

35:29

the fun they're having and it

35:31

definitely. You know, I'm sure he's

35:33

not just doing amount for the

35:35

heck of their right arm. so.

35:38

Yeah so kitten when you when of

35:40

things a twitter as isn't and the

35:42

tsunami of mostly negative press has fallen

35:44

since since he he got there it

35:46

it seems to have taken the it's

35:48

toll m it's time of mental say

35:50

city say x occupies for a line

35:52

and what is the price? While he

35:54

would argue he was here, he would probably argue that it

35:56

doesn't take that much time. Read that he's. Just

35:59

a one of many. The older than he

36:01

loves, but clearly it has taken a

36:03

toll on his business. has rights and

36:05

if you look at recent consumer data

36:07

at the end of last year when

36:09

he was been very outspoken, a very

36:11

contentious issues are you saw. Percentage.

36:14

Or the share of democrats are people

36:16

about car buyers who adenovirus democrats buying

36:18

Tesla dropped dramatically see a sign that

36:21

maybe they they couldn't stomach and a

36:23

he was going politically. That was really

36:25

the first time we've seen this and

36:27

it's a bad sign for a car

36:30

maker and even carmaker, because in the

36:32

U in the U S of the

36:34

biggest cohort of buyers for electric cars

36:37

are democrats now. He has brought republicans

36:39

in to the Tesla tense which is

36:41

very important for growing that technology or.

36:43

To be mainstream but he definitely needs

36:46

the democrats and as their turned off

36:48

by his his his issues and his

36:50

antics that struggling for the company and.

36:52

Twitter has debt. Nobody is sold. The debt

36:54

that does have a happy that load now

36:56

we see has rich friends and that wanna

36:58

get into the Spacex at I p L

37:01

y of these banks that some after him

37:03

lizard just like a rich by owning a

37:05

yacht this is his verse and a yacht.

37:07

There's a lot of people that think. X,

37:09

Ai and Crock are going to be the key

37:11

to turning. Third, Twitter acquisition

37:13

around. Those people

37:16

his think he's gonna pull a rabbit

37:18

out of a high and it's ah,

37:20

it's Guineas. Tesla Data is a train

37:22

these models and it's gonna be the

37:24

smartest ai on the planet. And then

37:26

Dell has been an early. He's not

37:28

having any trouble fundraising for access. he

37:30

has set about that. The So his

37:32

eroding racing Six Billion Dollars to created

37:34

competitor to Open A I and Others

37:36

in which he played a major role

37:39

in the early days in and broke

37:41

from Six Billion Dollars is nowhere near

37:43

enough money to compete with open A

37:45

Microsoft. And google So what he would the

37:47

in eighteen? A rabbit out of a hat.

37:49

Is it really a rabbit? Or is it

37:51

dead rabbit? And is

37:53

it okay to use his other companies dated

37:55

to do and that's another thing. And and

37:58

yeah, the legal person and whether test. The

38:00

how how ownership of that data works

38:02

I think I will be a big

38:04

issue of in the next few months.

38:06

sexy come up when I have talked

38:09

to people about as the compensation package

38:11

like if you on his disengage that

38:13

he's still see how is he gonna

38:15

use to so's resources as as max

38:17

make x ai into this giant. A.

38:19

I company and leaves Tesla

38:22

behinds. Herbs. I think that's one

38:24

of. The concerns from the people who are

38:26

concerned. It may I

38:28

say is I haven't really seen very much traction.

38:30

Forgot I talked to people who say it's just

38:32

not very practical. The build on got. I'm

38:35

I don't think is considered.

38:38

Really? Extraordinary compared to the

38:40

competitors five. Six. Billion Dollars

38:42

is a lot of money, and it's money

38:45

that other companies can't necessarily raise. And there's

38:47

the argument that he'll be able to buy

38:49

and of hardware that he can train models

38:51

to be. Smarter. Than any other

38:53

models out there. So maybe the money will

38:55

transform this, but there's a lot of competition

38:58

in the air space right now and they're

39:00

pretty behind me. Amazon to Steam Anthropic

39:02

for the scary thing is just like not

39:04

enough money is seems like a saw to

39:07

seems to me at on else at Thoughts

39:09

Chandler Searchers and. Was in of images

39:11

you ask why a wider people upset or

39:13

why investors go along with his. Well, if

39:15

you look at some of the long arc

39:17

of his career, he's taken on a lot

39:19

of things that didn't make sense does it?

39:21

First blush that looks like they were going

39:23

to fail and his peers pulled off these

39:25

kind of rabbits if you will with whether

39:27

it's the success of Spacex or Tussles success

39:30

rate. So. That those successes

39:32

give him credibility. I'm his in. Investors

39:34

are a lot of time are willing

39:36

to kind of hold their nose. And

39:38

in that the current drama, the current

39:40

dramas because they're they're making the long

39:42

term better over time. I'm ultimately that

39:44

will be successful. Madison part of the

39:46

drama around you on Mosque and why

39:48

attracts supporters and detractors as he don't

39:51

know if he's gonna pull it off

39:53

Ray is that the time it is

39:55

gonna trip and fall in his face

39:57

or is he going to yet again

39:59

kind of. Impress everybody was some

40:01

daring seat might. Lead. In that regard

40:03

narrow length which they recently to the selection

40:05

video that showed the first patient to them

40:08

companies brains, sit them, plant, move a cursor

40:10

with his mind is now that some problems

40:12

they're still working on that are going to

40:14

implant another person but this tally that little

40:16

strings came out of the brain or something

40:19

like that piano talks about this a lot

40:21

but it's way far away. This idea in

40:23

their are companies again or other competitors in

40:25

that nobody gets written about that aren't just

40:27

his saying. How much

40:30

progress has no. Link made towards it's very heavy

40:32

goals. And isn't a flash in the pan or

40:34

a real company. I did some research into. Neural

40:36

Link you know I I. Don't. Think that's

40:38

Flash and the Pan. I think it's Sullen. Set

40:40

Company. I actually don't think he's

40:43

very involved with that of all

40:45

assists you know Nora length and

40:47

the boring companies seem to me

40:49

as sort of like ah kind

40:51

of like a fun tiny things

40:54

he does on the side sometimes.

40:56

but it does seem like it

40:58

has been on track to help

41:00

people with disabilities. but this goal

41:02

of all of us using neural

41:05

link as a society seems many,

41:07

many years the snot decades of.

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42:35

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42:37

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42:39

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42:41

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42:43

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42:46

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42:48

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42:51

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42:53

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42:55

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42:57

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43:00

Follow stay tuned with pre. Wherever.

43:02

You get your podcasts. So.

43:09

This is about his state of mind

43:11

the as the years and breathless minds

43:13

of men and of course he's gotten

43:15

more involved in politics to Sydney broke

43:17

a huge story that he runs recreational

43:19

drugs which everybody knew about this areas

43:21

including and thankfully someone wrote it and.

43:23

He added circus a year to get that

43:25

story. I gather fires I allow that and

43:27

then everyone knew of everyone is using you,

43:29

read about using. L A C Cocaine

43:32

Xc Mushrooms Ketamine. About

43:34

his party and the drug use in what

43:36

role says it all plays in his decision

43:38

making. Sniffs changed since he reported on that

43:40

And I have to say the most important

43:42

thing about as story with the money the

43:44

board was getting to me that to meet

43:47

was a dead center as it. but go

43:49

ahead definitely ought to be honest. I don't

43:51

think. Much has changed. I mean

43:53

I think again this comes back

43:55

to the the Tesla board especially

43:58

sell something like this when. An

44:00

Egg, A high level executive. Maybe

44:02

not even the C O is

44:04

using recreational drugs at a normal

44:07

company. That would warrant a bare

44:09

minimum. an internal investigation. And maybe

44:11

it could be like Chino Attack

44:13

the boxes internal investigation we hire

44:16

an outside law firms. Think about

44:18

if this was like Pfizer or

44:20

Morgan Stanley C O None of

44:22

that has happened in this case.

44:25

The government contractors seem not to

44:27

care what kind of drugs he

44:29

is doing. Are not doing even

44:31

though it's a clear violation of this

44:33

government contracts. So I think it's kind

44:36

of just the status quo to be

44:38

honest. Yet so nothing is nothing.

44:40

Nothing nothing yet at the government

44:42

net. Not losing is geared how

44:45

our knowledge. right? So I mean there

44:47

could be something going on, but you

44:49

know, and not Financial Times. Interview: Robin

44:51

done home. Even sad to see wasn't

44:54

aware that he was using drugs I

44:56

believe which is just. Sort.

44:58

Of unbelievable. Yes yes and nothing

45:00

at all. This is as drugs, etc. Yeah

45:02

yeah the an executive would have been fired

45:04

but you know Tim I think. Brought up

45:07

a really good point, which is

45:09

always super important to remember when

45:11

writing about Elon. Musk is Tesla.

45:13

Has done insane li well

45:15

Spacex, Has done well right? So

45:18

if you're an investor and these companies,

45:20

why do you actually care of? He's

45:22

like doing coke or whatever he's doing

45:24

laid. His is the company's doing well.

45:27

so it is. There are two sides

45:29

and us for the are not too much.

45:31

I guess you did have a com The

45:33

headline Elon Musk played his antics had some

45:36

asking is he added touch according some the

45:38

supporters he is closed in sounds sinister to

45:40

reality is working as perspective and threatening his

45:42

didn't says his head and that ten months

45:45

to consider a question it is he added

45:47

touch with reality. He seems to live in

45:49

a bubble that's for sure. right about hell of a

45:51

you know we've seen over the years you go back

45:53

to the early days of Tesla was is used as

45:56

an example early days through people around him who told

45:58

him hard truths they did maybe last. Long. but

46:00

they they did that and you know for the

46:02

betterment of the company. I It's hard to say

46:05

the people that there are people around him now

46:07

who are giving him the same kind of hard

46:09

truths. we don't We don't know that to be

46:11

the case. I don't know that we the case

46:13

and it's hard to. It's hard to see anybody

46:16

there tampering some as his. Excursions

46:18

right and so that's it. Did in by

46:20

it's very nature You've got a lot of

46:22

people around him who are either hangar on are

46:24

so work and of supporters are people that

46:26

kind of encourage him to be in that

46:28

bubble like. Environment the then,

46:31

but I'll put that aside. Said he's

46:33

on twitter and he's hearing. Nice taking in

46:35

all other axes, that taking in all

46:37

of the negative feedback and seeing at

46:39

all. But then he's also being reinforced

46:41

by this new kind of leisure and

46:43

of echoes. That kind of whatever he

46:45

does support him and that concedes him

46:47

even more so. It's an interesting dynamic

46:49

where. He kind of is

46:52

a guy in his own little world where

46:54

he hears for everything he says is just

46:56

great. Yes, that's certainly true. I've heard some

46:58

a lot of people close in their. Districts.

47:00

Ethicists to the I am et al are

47:03

there are like carrying on a type and

47:05

I'm like no use against and help that's

47:07

nice innocence is get him into therapy see

47:09

really worried about i'm actually not isn't medicines

47:11

and the decades had him scientists dit dit

47:14

people around him that until now push back

47:16

on as bad ideas is that it's problematic

47:18

thing as he lost her sex is he

47:20

surrounded himself with yes men to say the

47:22

sleep like him up and down all day.

47:25

I think that impacts the city. that's what

47:27

it as as far as as a success

47:29

and lots of. I

47:32

think. We saw with this as the last

47:34

that people who I don't exactly what

47:36

he wants. Don't. Last as

47:38

long as the company's even. People get

47:40

really scared when they has to directly

47:43

report to him. It's so much better

47:45

to have a manager and between because

47:47

if you're directly reporting to him and

47:49

his observing everything you're doing, there's no

47:51

way he's not going to find something

47:53

wrong. With what you're doing. So

47:56

I don't think there's a lot of space. Or plus

47:58

far as. Tesla. For

48:00

Spacex to do. So where is

48:02

pushback is it exists. I.

48:05

Haven't found any pushback. I have a

48:07

nice. He. Are. His sister

48:09

Sarah taught him about his years ago and I

48:11

said you know there was something had happened I

48:13

so I didn't have talked about people said they

48:15

told you this is a dumb idea it's he

48:17

says well people all would sign tell me either

48:19

but dumb ideas rates are you know but I

48:21

landed a set of never going to be able

48:24

to land a rocket and I've done that and

48:26

they have done this. Easy saying and that's and

48:28

that kind of easy that clouding some as his

48:30

sinking right skill. It's almost as if he wants

48:32

to prove somebody wrong as they're saying him telling

48:34

him know or that's not possible right? See and

48:36

a We've got to the point now where it's.

48:38

Just it's succeeding at says that. Yeah

48:41

it's a nonsense know separate does that. There

48:43

are day that I was right about this

48:45

but they don't tell you the times people

48:47

are right and placed him in the right

48:49

direction. He never remembers that parts. I think

48:51

it's a real it's a real blind spot.

48:53

He used to listen to a lot of

48:55

people I know people think it's and of

48:57

a troll right now but he did. You

48:59

stop the he a lot of people around

49:01

him to push back on and the now

49:03

I think there's almost nobody and seeking people

49:05

who do insulin, some simulate a piece of

49:07

that he wanted and saturation with God side

49:09

a Canadian marketing professor author. And culture war

49:12

of rails against the quote unquote

49:14

like mine virus as just want

49:16

to know right thing thinkers him

49:18

Ilan seems to plant on to

49:20

I seal the tell them not

49:23

sounds radicalized him more He was

49:25

upset the by administration ignored Tesla

49:27

his words. is there any clue

49:29

to help us understand his obsession

49:31

with certain strafing immigrants jews, trans

49:34

people, black people, gay people, And

49:37

are there any other right wing think there's

49:39

is engaging with online boss. Decides

49:41

sad. And so it's

49:43

definitely you definitely see and he's even talk

49:45

he has talk about twenty nineteen. He starts

49:47

to see the were a little different but

49:50

then covered happens and we really start to

49:52

see it differently. Screw has public finances crime

49:54

is it's a in one of the things

49:56

that makes it challenging to rights and kind

49:58

of follow him as. Sometimes

50:01

he is on the forefront of kind

50:03

of. It's having his fingers on

50:05

the pulse of for society is and in

50:07

the some these consensus is she threats it's

50:09

not, it's idols you know immigration is is

50:11

definitely contentious. I don't think a lot of

50:13

people would say they support illegal immigration nights

50:16

but it's the tone is it's own side

50:18

of things a whole thing that and that

50:20

goes a little too far and a lot

50:22

of people's minds has it's a cruel miss

50:24

to at ramp isn't and in of that

50:27

that the some of the challenge of as

50:29

like trying to balance as he watched him

50:31

as a man and as a leader and

50:33

I sent. Walter Isaacson talks about demon mode

50:35

where sometimes it's just something clicks and I've

50:37

talked to people over the years he say

50:40

you can almost tell the red mist to

50:42

come over as eyes of just anger and

50:44

you know scene scene things that a certain

50:46

way and and as you know I guess

50:48

it's the flipside of his ability to be

50:50

so right on so many issues that to

50:53

to think that even could be a saying

50:55

in Iraq has to be a saying and

50:57

then. Some. Of these other social

50:59

issues, he seems to be out of touch on

51:01

with a lot of people that are very and

51:03

very hurtful to some people. Somebody think about

51:06

that Demon mode. I think it's nonsense focused.

51:08

A vow. I think the real

51:10

as Sale and the speaks to the

51:12

Demon Mode as and this is not

51:14

to see you on this. This has

51:17

been a problem with other executives as

51:19

you don't know when they actually have

51:21

a an actual mental health issue vs

51:23

their drugs. The season so is Demon

51:25

Mode South Flight Actually when he's like

51:28

taken too much had a mean is

51:30

that actually because. He has a diagnosis

51:32

that we don't know about even though he

51:34

spoken about other mental health issues. so I

51:36

think it does. I agree, sound a little

51:39

bit sort of like apologize to him, but

51:41

I think it really more than that speaks

51:43

to the fact that we just don't know.

51:46

And what now and won't now?

51:48

probably? Yes. I'm Becky When you talk

51:50

city by think a lot of is active

51:52

Taiwan and behave like him and and down

51:55

in some ways. But do you do get

51:57

worries for those who were there at the

51:59

company of. That are, they just go

52:01

along for the ride. It's totally makes.

52:03

There's still a lot of people who

52:05

really look up to him, even when

52:08

I have two people working at the

52:10

factory is it really surprises me? I'll

52:12

describe conditions that are on, say still.

52:14

The Sky Boeing will describe ways in

52:16

which to so. Hr his

52:18

sell them and they'll always say

52:21

i don't think Ilan was let

52:23

this. Remain. As he knew about

52:25

it. They. Often think that.

52:27

You. On They see him as sort of

52:29

like a flawed hero, but who would not

52:32

let the conditions of the sectors slide as

52:34

he was like they're on a day to

52:36

day basis. The really surprises me that her

52:38

the earth is going a little bit more

52:40

of a trickle down. I think that like

52:43

very high level managers do have an impact

52:45

on what things are like on the floor

52:47

and that they are responsible for what things

52:49

are like on the floor. By know there's

52:51

still a bit of a hero dynamic. he's

52:54

often not blame the up there is a

52:56

little trump the and As and. See of

52:58

that must Met with former President Donald

53:00

Trump in March. He said he doesn't

53:02

support Trump. I think he's lying. He

53:05

also said he might indoors a candidate

53:07

closer to the election. What's their relationship?

53:09

Riders Rfk Junior more of an

53:11

attraction to I'm Tim. He's been

53:13

clear that who is not going

53:16

to support and is Joe Biden

53:18

frightened and he he definitely has

53:20

embraced the Trump populism. The billionaire

53:22

populism is he will I'm and

53:25

that it can be helpful to

53:27

the Trump campaign. It can help

53:29

elevate the message of hope and

53:31

help com amplify that message as

53:34

we get closer to his election

53:36

day November And that's beneficial to

53:38

Trump's are. Having you on else

53:40

they're attacking Biden on a regular basis

53:43

and kind of amplifying discontent about the

53:45

President and that You definitely want that.

53:47

if you are trump you don't wanna

53:49

you don't want to the other way.

53:52

Where? sure? Suddenly to end on this

53:54

idea and Tim one of your racing fans

53:56

with you was called with Elon musk as

53:58

the bad outweigh the. Good. So let's

54:00

hear from all three of you when

54:03

factoring in everything does the bad outweigh

54:05

the good or vice versa. Are we?

54:07

in the Howard Hughes portion of this

54:09

story, you have a passage. Oh, and

54:12

I read Tim was also in talking

54:14

about the pay package but also the

54:16

wedding dislike as an entrepreneur many years

54:18

ago, which is why I spent most

54:20

of my time with them. It was

54:23

also another. Era for an entrepreneur one

54:25

before must pulled off for the most

54:27

remarkable corporate turnarounds. In a generation became

54:29

in the process one of the world's richest

54:31

man. It was the era of Ilan as

54:33

the underdog, the guy with a chip on

54:35

his shoulder trying to prove Motor City and

54:38

Bigelow wrong as well as Oliver's short sellers

54:40

betting know rooting against him Hungry. Ilan sleeping

54:42

on the floor. Factory Ilan. Staring into

54:44

the abyss chewing glass, Ilan. And

54:48

factory floor things. So nonsensical. In any case,

54:51

on each of you, let's start with you,

54:53

Tim since he wrote that and Becky and

54:55

and Kyrstin you get the last. Word people

54:57

always want to know is he's a hero or

54:59

villain and I think it depends on the day.

55:02

Sometimes in do depends within the day writers just

55:04

a lot of gray and I think the long

55:06

arc of time Will Will will kind of ways.

55:08

Added to use the challenge with judging her kind

55:11

of making an opinion on you. On and the

55:13

today is it. There's so much change we don't

55:15

know what you on we're going to get tomorrow

55:17

or the next week or a month or year

55:19

from now ranked and what do you think it

55:22

will be does the drama of at all best

55:24

you're not going against? Think about what he has

55:26

already accomplished. Those would them for years

55:28

ago Or who has a dog?

55:30

And my dog And. Twenty

55:33

years ago would have been hard to imagine.

55:35

Are you know z idea of electric cars

55:37

could be true? You know, not a you're

55:39

competing but eating lunches of the establish carmakers

55:41

so that in a lot of ways is

55:44

some of his legacy or what he's done

55:46

with space as some of his legacy but

55:48

now kind of was we get into this

55:50

later part of his life that will definitely

55:52

be part of that kind of legacy that

55:54

leads directly. I think we're

55:56

entering the era where you on has

55:58

competition. In he these. The competition

56:01

and reusable rockets and will

56:03

find that his early advancements.

56:06

In. Those two areas are some of the

56:08

best things that his own. I think that

56:10

the market is just gonna get a lot

56:12

more difficult for him. his not gonna be

56:15

the only one doing it anymore. The question

56:17

of what he does next. He has so

56:19

many supporters. Like I said earlier, he can

56:21

raise so much money he's never going to

56:23

be the underdog ever again by it. Will

56:26

he have the same impact I'm I am

56:28

open to having my mind change, but I

56:30

suspect that says us workers are in and

56:32

out agree with the other someone essays who

56:34

is ever going to be. Just

56:36

like once again it legacy gonna get.and

56:39

I'm like never see through. the receipts

56:41

are never kissed and you get the

56:43

last. Word well that's kind. I mean

56:45

I agree with that the I think

56:47

his fans base so completely enormous but

56:49

I do think Twitter really hurt him

56:52

and I do think that's just from

56:54

what I've seen and events as from

56:56

you know the willingness of people to

56:59

talk about Ham on event you know

57:01

on background are off the record. I

57:03

think the sentiments is changing against him

57:05

for the first time and a and

57:08

now way that it hasn't in the

57:10

past. You can even see it in

57:12

San Francisco. With all the people with

57:14

the bumper stickers on their Tesla saying like

57:17

I bought this before I knew Ilan was

57:19

crazy. So I do think there has been.

57:21

And the facts. Yes is about of a

57:23

joke out and a lot of ways which

57:25

I think was unfortunate because it didn't have

57:27

to be that way. In any case we

57:29

will see what happens. who knows. Maybe I'll

57:31

go to Mars and stay there Linson Hope

57:33

Anyway, I thank you so much. We love

57:36

your boarding school. You'll have plenty of material

57:38

and if you ever get it if you

57:40

ever run out you can go over opening

57:42

i and then says funny immaterial there anyway

57:44

thank you. So much all three of

57:46

you think you do. And

57:48

Kill. On.

57:54

I presume Castro resell to Terry.

57:56

Opens. Jolie Myers and Made In

57:58

Burning Special Thing. The Great Gallagher,

58:01

Andrea Lopez Sato, Nk thirty our

58:03

engineers or recline and Fernando a

58:05

reader and I see music is

58:07

by track and Mx security find.

58:09

The show you just sound tesla stop you

58:12

bought five years ago thing though is not

58:14

You have to party the seeds or the

58:16

since I can tell you that is not

58:18

going to be any fun. Go wherever you

58:21

listen to podcasts. Search for on with Kara

58:23

Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to

58:25

On with Tears Swisher from New York. Magazine,

58:28

The Box Media Podcast Network, and

58:30

Us Movie That on Thursday is

58:32

a new. Episode of Them.