0:00

With Cody Ko, some things came out about some

0:02

things he had said, and I got

0:04

really, really, really upset, like

0:07

unreasonably upset. And it

0:09

started to feel like this betrayal. Welcome

0:20

back to Other People's Lives. I'm Joe Santagato.

0:22

I'm Greg Dybek. For anyone out there that

0:24

would like to be a guest on our

0:26

show, don't hesitate to reach out to us.

0:28

Our email is oplpodcast@gmail.com. Today,

0:30

we're speaking to a guest that

0:33

reached out and the subject line

0:35

of the email read, I'm addicted

0:37

to parasocial relationships. Quick definition,

0:39

if you don't know what a parasocial relationship

0:41

is, it is a one-sided

0:43

psychological relationship between a person

0:46

and a media figure or,

0:48

you know, internet personality, television

0:51

star. It's based

0:53

on an idealized version of the person and

0:55

not real interaction between the two people. So

0:58

we've got the guest on the line and

1:00

thank you so much for being on today.

1:03

Yeah, thank you guys for having me. Really

1:06

excited to have this conversation and

1:08

talk about this concept and your

1:10

experience. So can you start

1:12

off, if there's anything that you want to

1:14

add to that definition to start, and just

1:17

kind of the first time that you became

1:19

aware that you were

1:21

having parasocial relationships? Yeah,

1:25

so I think the definition you gave covers it

1:27

pretty well. I think

1:29

the key thing is, you

1:32

know, that the person that you have

1:34

the relationship with doesn't know that you have

1:36

that relationship with them. They don't know you exist. And

1:39

I think it's also important to note that this isn't, it's

1:42

not a form of psychosis. It's not a delusion

1:44

where you think that you actually know the person.

1:47

It's actually a lot more common and simple than that.

1:49

It has more to do with thinking

1:52

that you know a celebrity better than their

1:54

other fans or like thinking

1:56

that, oh yeah, everybody else knows this

1:58

person, but I know. disappear.

34:00

But like, you know, yeah,

34:02

you know, Joe, I promise not to stare in your windows,

34:04

then if it makes you talk. I appreciate

34:06

it. And

34:08

it's also like, no matter how much, you

34:10

know, like, no matter

34:13

how much info you find or collect,

34:15

like, you it doesn't matter,

34:17

because you're still not going to know

34:20

who this person is truly. And it's

34:22

like, there's always going to be that

34:25

gap. I think that's okay, though. Because,

34:27

you know, I think, you

34:29

know, being

34:31

curious is fine. I don't

34:34

think that's an issue at all. I

34:36

think weaponizing information that you have found

34:39

with your own understanding of it is wrong. Like, that's

34:41

where I think that it's wrong. So like being curious,

34:43

because I've been fucking curious about whatever, if I listened

34:45

to an artist, and I like their music, I want

34:48

to know everything about them. Like, I'll go watch their

34:50

interviews, I'll try to understand their life a little bit.

34:52

But I don't know them, you know, like, I don't

34:54

try to use that information then to be like, this

34:56

is who they are, or this is what's going on

34:58

in their life. Yeah, like, like, that's

35:01

where I think when you're, if you're weaponizing information

35:03

that you have then like gone out of your

35:05

way to find with your

35:07

own understanding of it, that I think is

35:09

where it starts to get a little dicey.

35:12

Yeah, yeah. Well, it is like, you know,

35:14

it's a form of maladaptive daydreaming, like I

35:16

said, like people really are just deluding themselves

35:18

into thinking that like, you know, that this

35:20

fake reality is, is their reality

35:24

in real life. Not be

35:26

redundant, but no, it is

35:28

really interesting. We thank you for sharing

35:31

all that because it is just, again,

35:34

like something like we can experience, like Joe

35:36

said, like you, you're into someone new, it

35:38

like I was watching that movie Iron Claw

35:40

last night. And I just like, pause

35:43

and went on Zac Efron's Instagram. So I'm like, what

35:45

is this guy like, dude, like, and then I'm like,

35:47

oh, he has a daughter. And then I'm like looking

35:49

for pictures of him and his daughter and like, but

35:52

not for like, creepy reason, just like, Oh, he's

35:54

a dad too, or I think it was a

35:56

daughter. I don't even know. But then I just

35:58

creepy for me either. Yeah. Well, sure, yeah. No,

36:01

but then I just stopped like, what am I

36:03

doing to this person? Like, and I just put

36:05

the movie back on. But

36:07

I was gonna say like, and Joe, you were there

36:09

for this. And this was interesting, because I've obviously experienced

36:12

not even a inkling of what

36:14

Joe has experienced, but obviously

36:17

have gained people

36:19

who know me that I don't know. And we were,

36:22

probably the biggest fight I got in with my wife,

36:24

or it wasn't a fight, but it was like uncomfortable.

36:27

We were at an event and a girl asked us

36:29

to sign her arm. And then

36:32

I thought she was bluffing, but then she went

36:34

and got a tattoo the next day of all of

36:36

our signatures on her arm. And I

36:38

just remember it, did you say awesome? She's

36:41

like, why didn't I think of that? No,

36:44

but it was like, for

36:47

my wife, like I'm just thinking of the family

36:49

aspect too, and just how separate these worlds are.

36:52

And it just really made her so

36:54

uncomfortable. And she's like, this person is

36:56

walking around with your name on their

36:58

arm, and they don't know any, they

37:01

don't even know anything. I know

37:03

everything, I'm your wife, and they don't. I

37:05

don't have your name tattooed. Like, I don't

37:07

know, just really put it in perspective too,

37:10

of like, okay, like, yes, attention is interesting,

37:12

it's cool, and if it's new, it's really

37:14

shiny. But it's like, you gotta

37:16

keep the distance between these two things.

37:18

Again, that's like the creator side of it. But

37:21

it's because, yeah,

37:23

there are people who will run

37:25

to the extreme side, and everything

37:28

we just talked about, parasocial relationships to the extreme,

37:30

and this belief that they know someone, that someone

37:32

saved them. Like, and I believe creators and artists

37:35

can get people through hard times, but when

37:37

it goes deeper than that, that like, this person

37:39

created this for me, and I know them, and

37:41

I can't live without them, and it's,

37:44

yeah, just the awareness of that is crazy.

37:47

That's why I think a lot of it is okay.

37:49

It's okay. Even

37:52

getting those tattoos is like, I

37:54

would not do that, but like, and I remember being like,

37:56

I'm not signing your arm. I kept telling, I was like,

37:58

I'm not doing this. But eventually,

38:00

you know, after, you know, enough beers, I'm

38:02

like, but

38:05

the the that that's okay, as

38:08

long as there is the self awareness of like,

38:11

this isn't because I'm,

38:13

I'm, I've made you something else

38:15

in my life. And now you are that thing for

38:17

me. I know that that's not who you are, but

38:19

that's fine. And I'm okay with that. You know what

38:21

I mean? So like, you can have an attachment

38:24

to an artist or a song even, and wanted

38:26

to I have a tattoo of

38:29

a movie on my arm, you know, technically,

38:31

that's Jim Carrey on my arm, you know, so it's

38:33

like, it's not that I have an attachment to the

38:36

movie. And I think it's real, I think of

38:38

it like, it just means something to me. So

38:40

like, it's all this is fine, as long as

38:42

there's like a self awareness and understanding of like,

38:45

it's not real, it's what I've made it

38:47

I've created a meaning from this

38:49

thing. But it doesn't mean that

38:52

it's like, what's happening

38:54

in anyone else's reality, you know,

38:56

which I think is like important and again,

38:58

and that's why I think that like, everything

39:00

is fine. It's crazy. It's good to be

39:03

a fan. And like, you know, there can

39:05

be a line where you cross and whatever.

39:07

But as soon as you start to believe

39:09

that your reality and your relationship with this

39:11

person is what it is. And actually, and

39:13

in like in everyone else's reality, it's also

39:15

real. That's when it's like, okay, now, you

39:18

know, you we've crossed into something different. But yeah,

39:21

I mean, and we can see

39:23

why that can easily become an addiction

39:25

for a lot of people. It's like, it's right

39:27

there. It's right on the edge. Oh, yeah, it's

39:29

a dopamine hit for sure. Yeah. But with all

39:31

that said, I know we're kind of criticizing all

39:33

this and talking about what's right and wrong. So

39:36

thank you for, you know, being someone who has

39:38

been on the side of the spectrum that we're

39:40

saying, you know, is

39:42

like too far and admitting that

39:44

and talking about it. And obviously,

39:46

it's it's good that you're in this position to be

39:48

able to talk about this now. Also, one

39:50

thing I wanted to say that I think is really cool

39:52

is that you said that you

39:55

have reached this point where holding these

39:57

people that you idolize into a

39:59

certain standard is

40:01

only going to result in a giant

40:03

letdown, you know, like people and especially

40:05

because that's just not how the way

40:08

the world is like people don't have

40:10

the exact Opinions on every

40:12

single thing and that's fine You know, I

40:14

have fucking relatives that I'm like this person's

40:16

a fucking idiot when it comes to certain

40:18

things But I like they're they're my relative

40:20

and like for the most part I know

40:22

they're a good person but like they they

40:24

say some things that I'm like, okay I

40:26

don't necessarily do that or whatever or you

40:28

have some people that you just Definitely

40:30

disagree with for certain things or whatever,

40:33

but you know who they are you

40:35

know their heart or whatever like what

40:37

I feel like we're living through a

40:39

time where everyone is like it's all

40:41

or nothing and It's like it

40:44

just makes every it's a it's a it's scary

40:46

to me Yeah, and it's not even to the

40:48

point now, we're probably going on around here, but

40:50

not even to the point I like it not

40:53

even to the point of like Say the

40:55

thing that I agree with like you said or you

40:57

didn't say it's like now even You

40:59

know like no inject your political opinions or

41:02

this into your art into your comment into

41:04

your this and it's like this pressure of

41:06

This person has to and this is

41:09

probably not necessarily people with parasocial relationships,

41:11

but it's just You

41:13

know people who idolize anyone and it's like you

41:15

have to speak up You have to

41:18

talk about what I stand for specifically you have to

41:20

mix this with the work that you put out It

41:22

doesn't matter like if you're a good person beyond the

41:24

scenes or what you believe in like it has to

41:26

be said and you Have it's yeah,

41:28

it's just it's dicey on the internet

41:31

Yeah, well, I will say I mean the political

41:33

side of things is obviously at the whole other

41:36

hour-long conversation But um, I

41:38

do just want to say the irony is not lost

41:40

on me that I'm talking to you know Joe,

41:42

San, Agado who I've been a fan of forever You

41:47

Know about this topic in particular and

41:50

Yeah, I do agree that they're you know keeping

41:52

some distance between yourself and that person whether it

41:55

be politically or like whatever like You

41:57

know, I I can guarantee you that