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are limited. Take delivery by 7, 8, 24. Hello. I'm

1:02

Edward October. Over the years I've narrated

1:04

more ghost stories, horror shows, and creepy

1:06

pastas than I can count. And yet,

1:09

the crimes discussed on our True Crime

1:11

podcast manage to scare the sh** out

1:13

of me. This program is not suitable

1:15

for children or the faint of heart.

1:17

If you are such a person, go

1:19

ahead and switch off this podcast. Listen

1:22

to something else. Are

1:25

you still with us? Well, we've

1:28

warned you. Hey,

1:48

Jen. Cam, how's it going?

1:51

Whoo, that was a happy welcome. It

1:53

was. I was not prepared for that. Summer.

1:56

It is summer. Living my best life, doing

1:58

nothing. I love it. Well, you're watching TV.

2:00

That's something, right? I am watching TV and playing

2:02

solitaire and doing one little chore a day. There

2:05

you go. So there you

2:07

go. Well, I have a case for you today, my friend.

2:09

All right. Give it to me. It's,

2:11

here we go. Are you ready? Former

2:21

chief Dauphin County Detective Thomas Brennan's

2:23

phone rings between 3 and 4

2:25

a.m. from a

2:27

responding officer requesting assistance on a crime

2:29

scene. When the detective arrives,

2:32

he notices a car pulled right up close

2:34

to a ditch. Now, Brennan,

2:36

who received training at the FBI Behavioral

2:38

Science Unit during his tenure with the

2:40

state police, knew immediately what he was

2:43

dealing with when he arrived on

2:45

the Conrail crime scene. Conrail is the

2:47

train system, by the way. After

2:50

Brennan asked the officers for details,

2:52

the officer explains that a trained

2:54

security guard official had stumbled upon

2:57

a man attacking a woman. The

2:59

man was startled and he ran off. Thankfully,

3:02

the victim was injured but alive.

3:04

So he called for police and waited with

3:06

her until help would arrive. Detective

3:10

Brennan noted that the vehicle's trunk

3:12

was open and inside was what

3:14

many would call a kill kit,

3:16

such as rope, duct tape, you

3:18

know, the things that help somebody

3:20

kill or otherwise incapacitate somebody.

3:24

Inside the car on the ground were plastic mats,

3:26

sort of like floorboard mats that you have on

3:28

the inside of your car. Now, seemingly,

3:30

these were used to cover the ground

3:33

inside the ditch. It's now

3:35

clear to the detective that this man had

3:37

planned to kill his victim, put her in

3:39

the ditch, and drive away. What

3:41

was also clear to the detective was

3:43

that this was not this man's first

3:45

time killing someone. He had done

3:47

it before and he knew what he was doing. The

3:50

victim, Clara, was sent to the hospital and

3:53

would report to authorities that the man had

3:55

raped and sodomized her. Now she

3:57

would recount to police about the events of the evening.

4:00

She tells officers that she was hanging out

4:02

in a bar in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, when a

4:04

man offered to give her a ride home.

4:06

Clara took the man up on the ride, but

4:08

told him that she wanted his friend along for

4:10

the journey. All three people

4:13

got into the vehicle and they headed home,

4:15

but soon the man pulled over and made

4:17

his friend exit the car. The

4:20

other man then went and drove as if

4:22

he was going to take Clara home, but

4:24

instead he found a dark, vacant lot

4:27

near the railroad tracks. He

4:29

pulled over where he proceeded to

4:31

tie up and beat Clara before

4:33

violently raping her. Now,

4:35

strangely, and this is a detail

4:37

that Clara would recall, the

4:40

man would occasionally take a break for a

4:42

beer and a cigarette, but as he

4:44

did this, he would detail just what

4:46

he had planned to do to her

4:48

next. That

4:51

sadistic little thing. It's horrible. He

4:53

then raped her yet again. He

4:55

attempted to drag her to that hole,

4:58

but before he could get her to

5:00

that ditch, headlights caught his face and

5:02

he ran away, leaving his victim injured,

5:04

but alive. These were

5:06

the lights of the security guard who just

5:08

happened about the gruesome scene. Conrail

5:10

security guard's attention is drawn to

5:13

the bound and gagged victim squirming

5:15

for help in the dirt near

5:17

the burial hole. The

5:19

hole had already been dug by the

5:21

killer and he was simply waiting for

5:23

the victim's body to be placed inside,

5:25

making it her grave site. The

5:27

car would be traced back to a

5:30

man by the name of Joseph Miller

5:32

from Steelton, Pennsylvania. Police

5:34

caught up to Joe, who, of course he

5:36

was, hiding at a relative's house. Police

5:39

capture Joe, but he manages to break from

5:41

their grip and attempts to make an escape.

5:43

As police recapture him, they

5:46

actually caught him scaling

5:48

a building trying to get to the roof. They

5:50

made it to the roof and the poor police

5:53

were stuck there in a standoff for six hours,

5:55

as Joe Miller would repeatedly threaten to

5:57

jump and kill himself. Of course.

6:00

Six hours. Finally, Joe agreed

6:02

to come down and he turned himself into police.

6:05

Joe Miller was arrested and brought

6:07

into the Susquehanna Township Police Department.

6:10

Initially, Joe Miller did not want to talk. He

6:12

did not want to give up the secrets he

6:14

had been keeping for all these years. Detective

6:17

Brennan knew that Miller had more to tell

6:19

and so he's not surprised when he received

6:22

a call from the Dolphin County Prison informing

6:24

him that, hey, guess what? Joe Miller wants

6:26

to speak with you. Of course he

6:28

does. When the detective arrived, Joe

6:30

begged him to get out of the jail. He

6:32

missed his kids, Jen. He missed them so deeply

6:34

and he just wanted to see them. Probably

6:37

shouldn't have, you know, done what he did. Detective

6:40

Brennan told Joe, nope, no way.

6:42

I know you had killed before and I'm not going

6:44

to rest until you fess up. He was like, not

6:46

going to happen. Finally with

6:49

the carefree attitude only a killer could have,

6:51

Joe looked at the detective and said, if

6:53

I tell you where they are, will you

6:55

let me see my kids? Joe

6:57

Miller tells the detective that he will take

7:00

him to where he has some buried in

7:02

a landfill. From the

7:04

outside looking in, it seemed like Miller was

7:06

living a normal life. He was married with

7:08

children and working to support his family, but

7:10

his younger years were anything but normal.

7:13

Joseph Miller was born on

7:15

September 2nd, 1964 in Steelton,

7:17

Pennsylvania, where he joined three

7:19

older brothers and a sister.

7:22

From a young age, Miller struggled.

7:25

He had an intellectual disability and

7:27

a neurological damage and he suffered

7:30

from antigrade amnesia, I hope I said

7:32

that right, which led to constant

7:34

bullying from his peers. This

7:37

type of amnesia is a type of

7:39

memory loss that occurs when you can't

7:41

form new memories. In the

7:43

most extreme cases, this means you permanently

7:45

lose your ability to learn or retain

7:48

any new information. On

7:50

its own, this type of memory loss is

7:52

rare. The more common amnesia is when you

7:55

lose your past memories. That's the one we

7:57

usually hear about rather than the ones that...

8:00

You can't make new memories. The whole soap opera. I

8:02

don't know who I am. I don't know

8:05

who I am. Miller also spoke with

8:07

the lisp and this was because of a

8:09

childhood accident and I gotta say we've all

8:11

done this. He was jumping from the couch,

8:13

you know, couches, jumping couch to couch and

8:16

then on the ground. Well he missed the

8:18

landing and it caused permanent damage to his

8:20

mouth, meaning he would be stuck with that

8:23

lisp. He was often sent

8:25

to school unbathed and in dirty clothes.

8:28

All of this, of course, leads to what?

8:30

Relentless bullying. Because

8:33

of all this bullying, Joseph Miller dropped

8:35

out of school just after,

8:37

you ready? Fourth

8:40

grade. The

8:42

home in which Miller grew up in was

8:44

not a loving one to say the least.

8:46

A judge would describe it as, quote, a

8:49

den of incestual sexual abuse. At

8:51

one of his trials, his sister took the stand

8:53

and testified that she had been sexually abused by

8:56

their father for two years. At

8:58

just 15 years old, she became pregnant

9:00

by her father with a child who

9:02

would be Miller's own sister and

9:05

his niece. When his sister told

9:07

their mother what had been going on, she

9:09

said her mother attacked her with

9:11

a kitchen knife, causing her to

9:13

run away at 15 years old,

9:15

leaving five-year-old Joseph behind. Their

9:18

father, Joseph, also named Joseph, would

9:20

never be charged with child rape

9:23

or child abuse. In

9:25

a later trial, the daughter, now

9:27

grown, would take the stand and

9:29

claim that their father, three brothers,

9:31

two uncles, and a half-brother regularly

9:33

sexually abused other members of the

9:35

family, including Joe Miller. Now,

9:37

it's about this time that Joe began stealing

9:40

and drinking alcohol, which his older brother and

9:42

father influenced. Court documents

9:44

indicate that his father initiated his

9:46

exposure to alcohol at

9:48

the age of six years old.

9:52

This set the stage for a habitual

9:54

daily consumption that commenced as early as

9:56

19. At times, he

9:58

got drunk before breakfast. In

10:01

addition to alcohol, he began experimenting with

10:03

marijuana and cocaine and at one point

10:06

suffered a pill overdose. This is

10:08

all around the age of 19. Miller

10:10

would dive into a series of

10:13

criminal activities and this would include

10:15

arson, theft, assaults and even engaged

10:17

in armed confrontations with law enforcement.

10:20

All because of this, he was sent

10:22

to juvenile detention or juvenile home. After

10:26

Miller endured a vicious attack by a group

10:28

of teenagers at the age of 12, Miller

10:30

went home, grabbed a shotgun and set

10:33

out to confront his attackers. As

10:35

he roamed the town, discharging the firearm

10:37

while searching for the teens who assaulted

10:39

him, Officer J. Michael

10:41

Sheldon of Steelton responded to the

10:44

scene and confronted Joseph Miller. Sheldon

10:47

drew his weapon on Miller, who ignored the

10:49

officers' orders to drop the gun. In

10:52

an attempt to defuse the situation, Sheldon

10:54

fired a warning shot into the air,

10:56

startling Miller who then let go of

10:58

the weapon. Reflecting back

11:01

on the encounter, Officer Sheldon admitted,

11:03

quote, I should have killed him.

11:06

I should have just pulled the trigger. I should have killed him. Shoot

11:09

the guy. He's got a gun. Was running

11:11

through my mind. But I also thought he's

11:13

a kid. He's 12 years old. Then

11:16

he went on to say, would those people be alive

11:18

if I had done what I was trained to do?

11:21

Interesting side note, Officer Sheldon

11:23

is no longer a police officer. Instead,

11:26

he practices law. Thought that was

11:28

interesting. He's a lawyer now. Mm-hmm.

11:31

Awesome. So still in that field, but you know. Different

11:34

side of it. After Joseph Miller

11:36

was taken into custody for this event, he

11:38

was sent to a juvenile facility where he

11:40

was subjected to sexual attacks and beatings by

11:42

fellow inmates. The officials in

11:45

charge simply overlooked the attacks. And

11:47

this would cause Miller to develop

11:49

post-traumatic stress disorder. Released

11:51

from the juvenile facility in the early 1980s,

11:54

Miller quickly returned to criminal activities and

11:56

drug use. His downward spiral included

11:58

a brush with a death from a

12:01

severe drug overdose and multiple arrests

12:03

for offenses ranging from theft and

12:05

assault to arson and illegal possession

12:07

of firearms. By

12:10

1984, Miller departed Steelton for Harrisburg

12:12

where he secured housing and entered

12:14

into a marriage. The

12:16

couple would have three children between 1985 and

12:18

1993. Because

12:22

of his very limited education,

12:25

he would work mostly as a laborer and

12:28

work pretty much whenever he could find work,

12:31

which meant it was not consistent.

12:34

A previous employer disclosed that he terminated

12:36

Miller's employment due to suspicions of him

12:38

breaking into a residence that they were

12:40

both involved in renovating. So they, you

12:42

know, came together and they were going

12:44

to rehab this house. The

12:47

homeowner, an elderly widow, recounted

12:49

seeing a figure brandishing a knife

12:51

at her bedside. Of

12:54

course, Miller denied it

12:56

and he made some really

12:58

fantastic pleas for reinstatement. However,

13:00

the employer reluctantly agreed

13:02

to give him one other opportunity.

13:06

But you know how that goes,

13:08

Jen? Shortly thereafter, Miller set fire

13:10

to a garage where the employer

13:12

stored equipment. His wife was expecting

13:14

the third child when authorities apprehended

13:16

him. And it's important, and

13:18

here's another little side note. Following

13:20

his convictions from all this, you know, his

13:23

wife initiated divorce proceedings and moved in with

13:25

one of his brothers. Oh, yeah. Jim,

13:28

it's got a lot going on there. Probably

13:30

needed help. On August

13:32

12, 1992, Miller, with police in

13:35

tow, would take authorities to the

13:37

landfill as promised. Every

13:39

police specialist was there. They were excited

13:41

to bring some closure to the case

13:43

of these two missing women. Police

13:46

on site, Miller has walked to the location

13:48

and he points to an area that is

13:50

covered by some wood and stated that one

13:52

body could be found there. Miller

13:54

then took a detective to another area nearby

13:57

and said that another body could be found

13:59

in the house. that location. With

14:01

a helicopter in the air, the dig

14:03

started, which would last for hours. And

14:06

they recovered? Nothing. Yeah.

14:09

Joe Miller then starts laughing as if

14:12

he pulled the greatest heist ever on

14:14

the officers. When Detective

14:16

Brennan asked him why he was laughing, Miller

14:18

said, all that stuff I said

14:20

earlier, it's not the truth. Furious,

14:23

Detective Brennan, threw him in

14:25

the back of the squad car and got ready to

14:27

take Miller back to jail. But

14:29

before they could fully depart, an officer

14:31

approached the car and informed the detective

14:33

that they had found what they believed

14:35

was a human femur. The

14:38

skeletons of Stephanie McDuffie and Selena Franklin

14:40

were recovered from the Swatera Township landfill

14:42

back on that chilly August morning in

14:44

1982. It was on May 16, 1987

14:47

that 18-year-old Selena Franklin went

14:52

missing after friends last saw her with

14:54

a man named Joey, who gave the

14:56

friends a ride. At

14:58

the time, Joe Miller is questioned, but

15:01

claims he dropped Franklin off safely and

15:03

had never seen her again. When a

15:05

woman's necklace is found in his car,

15:07

Miller's wife claimed it was hers. Franklin

15:10

was a sex worker at the time. Twenty-three-year-old

15:13

Stephanie McDuffie, who was eight months pregnant,

15:15

did not return home on November 6,

15:17

1989. Her mother reported

15:20

her missing. Police take the

15:22

report, but nothing seems to come from it,

15:25

nor does Stephanie show up. Just

15:27

like Franklin, McDuffie was a sex

15:29

worker. Joe Miller

15:31

admitted to bludgeoning to death both

15:34

of these women. Following, he

15:36

said sex, but really it was

15:38

rape. That's always rape. Convinced

15:41

that Joseph Miller may have been responsible

15:43

for more than just these two known

15:45

homicides, law enforcement officials executed a search

15:48

warrant at his residence and

15:50

wanted to validate their suspicions. Among

15:53

the items seized were small, human-like

15:55

figurines positioned above a door frame.

15:58

These little figurines are like five inches tall. I

16:01

think they were described sort of as like African

16:04

figurines. I wouldn't know if

16:06

they're truly African figurines, but they're people, they're

16:08

little people figurines. You mean that they're like

16:10

that warrior icon type things? Kind of, yeah,

16:13

but they're homemade. You can tell that they're

16:15

homemade, right? Right, so like folk. Yeah,

16:18

kind of. Yeah. So above the

16:20

door jam, I hope that was, I made that clear,

16:22

above the door jam, there were seven little figures up

16:24

on the very top. So this

16:26

discovery led the investigators to

16:28

speculate whether each figure symbolized

16:31

a victim, but they

16:33

would have to wait and see if they were correct.

16:35

They're correct. Trying to

16:37

tie Miller to other cases, detectives take

16:40

a long look at some female sex

16:42

workers who had been raped, sodomized, and

16:44

murdered in and around the area. Two

16:47

cases peaked the detectives' interest

16:50

immediately. One case involved

16:52

a Harrisburg woman who had survived,

16:54

and another involved a woman who

16:56

had been murdered. Her body discovered,

16:58

wrapped inside a rug. Once

17:00

again, Detective Brennan took a shot at trying

17:03

to get some information. It

17:05

was during this conversation that the

17:07

detective would learn just how much Miller

17:09

loved talking about his crimes. While

17:12

Miller was talking about committing these

17:14

crimes, he was getting physically excited.

17:17

The thought of it for him was exhilarating.

17:19

Quote, you could see the veins on his

17:22

neck pumping. The detective told Patriot News in

17:24

2000, describing how

17:26

Miller would relive his murders while

17:28

recounting the attacks to interrogators. The

17:31

detective went on to say, it was almost like he

17:33

was working out in the gym. The

17:35

vein was pumping so hard on his face.

17:39

He was getting off on it, that's why. Reliving

17:41

it. So during his appearance

17:44

on the TV show, Shattered, available

17:46

on Amazon, the detective recalled how

17:48

he leaned over to Whisper to Miller. Now

17:50

normally I wouldn't keep this in here, but

17:52

this just goes to the demented kind of

17:54

person he is. So

17:56

the detective leans over to him and says, quote, you're

17:59

fucking enjoying this. and your skivvies are

18:01

getting sticky, aren't they?" The

18:03

detective then added, "'I know you did this.'" Miller

18:06

responded, "'Oh yes, I did. I thought

18:08

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Voidware prohibited by law. See terms and conditions. ["The

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Star-Spangled Banner"]

21:47

Detective Brennan was referencing the

21:49

June 30th, 1992 attack on

21:52

that Harrisburg sex worker woman

21:55

who was raped, forced to perform sex acts, and then

21:57

stabbed in the head with a screwdriver more than 20

21:59

years ago. 25 times and then

22:01

was shot for good measure. She

22:04

was left for dead in Perry County. However,

22:06

this woman did something Miller did not

22:08

expect. She lived. The

22:11

detective wanted more information about the body that

22:13

was recovered inside that rug. Miller

22:16

claimed responsibility for her death as well.

22:19

This was regarding the discovery of

22:21

Kathy Novena Schenk, also known as

22:23

Phoenix Bell, and

22:25

he was found on

22:27

February 27, 1990 at

22:29

a roadside dump in Penn Township in

22:31

Perry County. The Harrisburg woman

22:33

had been run over by a car

22:35

several times. Joe Miller

22:37

would tell the detective that when she tried to get

22:40

away, he ran her over with his car several times

22:42

until he was sure she was dead. He

22:44

then wrapped her in a rug and tossed her to

22:46

the side of the road like a piece of trash.

22:50

So at this point, talking to the

22:52

detective, Miller has admitted to killing three

22:54

women and attacking two others who luckily

22:56

survived. But you know,

22:58

Detective Brennan cannot get those seven figurines

23:00

on the top of that doorframe out

23:02

of his mind, and he's determined to

23:04

figure out the names of the final

23:06

two victims. Takes a

23:08

bit more time, but you know, a dogged

23:11

detective is going to get what they want. Soon,

23:14

the murder of Jeanette Thomas comes to

23:16

light. 25-year-old Jeanette Thomas went

23:18

missing on January 11, 1990. Thomas

23:22

was last seen leaving an Allison Hill

23:24

bar with the man and was never

23:26

seen again. Her body would be discovered

23:28

in a Swatera Township landfill. The

23:30

man was described to police, and the

23:33

description looked an awful lot like, guess

23:35

who? Joe Miller. But

23:38

Jeanette, there's just one little catch about this, this

23:40

murder. The man who committed this crime

23:43

admitted his part in the murder, and he was

23:45

actually serving time for this murder. The

23:47

man was 31-year-old William Kelly, and

23:49

he confessed to it, and

23:51

he was sentenced to 10 to 20 years in prison. But

23:54

you see, the thing is, Jen, William was

23:56

also intellectually disabled, and as

23:59

we've seen in past cases,

24:01

sometimes people admit to a crime simply

24:03

thinking they'll get out of it later

24:05

or that they were not provided with

24:07

adequate support when they were being interrogated

24:09

such as a lawyer or an adult

24:12

if you're a child. When

24:14

DNA evidence was tested, wouldn't you know it?

24:17

Yep, that DNA evidence did not

24:19

belong to William Kelly but instead belonged

24:21

to Joe Miller. Thankfully,

24:24

William was released when Joe Miller

24:26

admitted that he was actually the

24:28

person who had killed Jeanette Thomas.

24:31

During the initial trial, Camp Hill

24:34

psychologist Stanley E. Schneider provided testimony

24:36

about Joseph Miller's background in mental

24:38

state. Schneider's evaluation

24:40

revealed a complex mix of

24:43

factors, including intellectual and developmental

24:45

disabilities, emotional challenges, and

24:47

learning disabilities. He

24:50

highlighted Miller's upbringing as, quote,

24:52

a violent, abusive, alcoholic home.

24:55

The doctor testified that all these

24:57

factors contributed to Miller's actions. The

24:59

defense wanted the court to consider

25:02

Miller's mental state, his IQ, and

25:04

background when weighing the charges against

25:06

him. By the way,

25:08

Miller's IQ was tested during the

25:10

trial registering at 56, which

25:13

is defined as a mild intellectual

25:15

disability. But his IQ had

25:17

been tested earlier and it was as high as

25:19

81, which is

25:21

borderline intellectual disability. Now

25:24

what would make all the difference in this case

25:26

is just one thing. Or should

25:28

I say one person? Who better

25:31

to describe what Joe Miller was capable

25:33

of than someone who survived his wrath?

25:36

That's right, Clara, the woman who

25:38

was found by the Tran Security

25:40

Guard, would take the stand and

25:42

tell jurors about the brutal attack

25:44

courtesy of Joe Miller. Clara,

25:47

after all, was the reason

25:49

that Joe Miller was ever apprehended. On

25:53

March 25, 1993, Miller was found

25:55

guilty of the murders of Selena

25:57

Franklin and Stephanie McDuffie in addition

26:00

to the abduction and sexual assault of

26:02

Clara Johnson. These convictions

26:04

led to, that's right, the

26:06

death sentence. Now,

26:08

Kathy Schenck's murder conviction over in

26:10

Perry County would earn Miller yet

26:13

another murder conviction and yet another

26:15

death sentence. So right now, he's

26:17

looking at four death sentences. However,

26:20

Joseph Miller's sentence would change in 2002.

26:22

Miller's mental state

26:24

took center stage in his appeals after

26:27

he received the death penalty. In

26:29

2002, the U.S. Supreme Court

26:32

made a landmark ruling stating

26:34

that individuals with intellectual disabilities

26:36

could not be subjected to

26:38

execution, deeming it cruel

26:41

and unusual punishment. Instead,

26:43

Miller received three life sentences

26:45

for his crimes. This

26:47

leaves just one victim of Miller's left

26:50

for police to identify. 26-year-old

26:53

Kellyanne Ward was reported missing by family members

26:55

on February 11, 1986. In

26:59

1997, a construction crew was working

27:01

behind the Harrisburg East Mall and

27:04

while they were digging up dirt, human bones

27:06

came to the surface. These bones

27:08

would remain in custody without a name

27:10

attached to them all the

27:13

way into the spring of 2014.

27:15

That's a lot. That's

27:17

a lot of years. Very long,

27:19

long period. Ward's family

27:22

was contacted and asked to

27:24

submit some DNA and within

27:26

weeks, investigators got confirmation that

27:28

the remains belonged to Kellyanne

27:30

Ward. Now, the

27:32

parallels between Miller's known homicides and

27:34

the case of Kellyanne Ward are

27:36

chillingly striking. Ward's skeletal

27:38

remains were discovered near a location

27:40

where Miller had previously discarded two

27:42

other bodies. Furthermore, Ward

27:45

fit the profile of victims that

27:47

Miller typically targeted young, black individuals

27:49

living on the fringes of society

27:52

in Harrisburg. They were all sex

27:54

workers. It's now

27:56

time for the detective to go have another little

27:58

chat with Joe Miller. However,

28:00

this time it seems that Miller's

28:02

demeanor has shifted significantly. Unlike

28:05

before, he was very cooperative.

28:07

Now he remains tight-lipped. He

28:11

is offering neither cooperation nor

28:13

confession. Instead, he responded

28:15

to questions about Ward with

28:17

laughter, citing his inability to

28:19

recall due to being in, quote, a dark

28:22

place and heavily under the influence of drugs

28:24

at the time. When

28:26

directly asked about any involvement in the

28:28

disappearance and murder of Kellie Ann Ward,

28:31

Miller shockingly responded, I'm

28:34

not the only serial killer that was killing girls.

28:37

So the detective has one more little trick up

28:39

his sleeve. He has a photograph of a pipe

28:42

and he shows it like a pipe pipe, you

28:44

know, not a smoking pipe but like a metal

28:46

pipe. And he shows it to Miller,

28:48

who seems to almost light up. Miller

28:51

then kind of laughed and said, you know, the

28:53

pipe he used on her was much smaller. Finally,

28:56

Miller described picking Kellie Ann up

28:58

from a city restaurant, driving her

29:00

to that same landfill, engaging in

29:03

sexual activity and ultimately killing her

29:05

with that pipe, then covering

29:07

her body with tires and shingles. That's

29:10

it. Investigators now have what they

29:13

needed to tie Miller to the death of

29:15

Ward. The affidavit of

29:17

probable cause highlights, resemblances, and the

29:19

physical evidence discovered at the prior

29:21

crime scenes of Joseph Miller's four

29:24

other homicide victims, alongside

29:26

incriminating statements made by Miller

29:28

to investigators, which would seal

29:30

the deal for the serial

29:32

killer. In April of 2016, Miller

29:35

confessed on tape to the killings of

29:38

Ward and Jeanette Thomas. In

29:40

his testimony, he expressed remorse to

29:42

the victims' families and expressed a

29:44

desire to plead guilty, influenced by

29:46

conversations he had had with the

29:49

relatives of the deceased women. Based

29:51

on this confession, on June 24, 2016, he was convicted

29:53

of the murders and received two

29:58

additional life sentences. On

30:01

Wednesday, April 13, 2016,

30:04

Dolphin County District Attorney Ed Marceco

30:06

declared during a press conference that

30:09

charges were being pressed against convicted serial

30:11

killer Joseph Miller for the murder of

30:13

Kelly Ward and Jeanette Thomas. Investigators

30:17

believe that Kelly Ann Ward was Miller's

30:19

first victim, but was the last to

30:21

be discovered. When

30:23

Joe Miller was asked by Detective Brennan

30:25

why he targeted black sex workers, he

30:28

replied with, quote, if the first one

30:30

would have been a white debutante, you

30:32

guys would have been all over my

30:34

ass, end quote. That's true. So,

30:37

Jean, you know, we've discussed it many times

30:39

before on the podcast, and I'm sure sadly

30:41

we will discuss it many more times. Is

30:43

it nature or nurture that makes a killer?

30:46

Some perceive Joe Miller as a

30:48

mentally challenged individual shaped by parental

30:50

abuse and relentless bullying whose fury

30:52

is a manifestation of his environment,

30:55

upbringing, and post-traumatic stress. While

30:57

others are not so kind, claiming that

31:00

Miller's ability to maintain a seemingly normal

31:02

family life, including his wife and his

31:04

children, all while carrying out

31:06

rape and murder of potentially five women,

31:09

along with the brutal assaults on the

31:11

two that survived, was a

31:13

man who was acutely aware of what he was

31:15

doing. After all, remember, he

31:17

traveled with a kill kit and picked

31:19

his victims that he believed society

31:22

would never miss. The

31:24

quote that Detective Brennan shared with

31:26

Patriot News investigative reporter Pete Shelem

31:29

in 2000 offers a chilling insight

31:31

into Joseph Miller's psyche. According

31:34

to the detective, quote, what

31:36

if society has to learn is that there

31:38

are individuals out there who commit these kinds

31:40

of crimes for no other reason than they

31:42

like it. They enjoy seeing the

31:45

fear that they place in the victim and

31:47

the control that they hold over the victim.

31:50

And finally, they really enjoy the

31:52

godlike feeling of taking a life.

31:56

And that would perfectly sum up Mr.

31:58

Joseph Miller. That whole nature and

32:00

nurture will always get me. I don't think I'll

32:02

ever be able to, well, I'm not smart enough

32:05

to make a definitive answer, but

32:07

it takes all kinds, right? I

32:09

mean, if you have people that

32:11

weren't abused, had perfectly good

32:13

childhoods, and they murder. That's

32:16

exactly what I was gonna say. Right. So. They

32:19

don't murder. Or they have that same sort of abuse and they don't grow

32:21

up and murder. Right. Goes both ways.

32:24

Right, exactly, yeah. Mr.

32:26

Miller is alive and well. I just checked on him

32:28

this morning. You know, I looked him up. Prison has

32:30

not done him any. Favor.

32:33

Yeah. Nope. He looks rough.

32:35

And I love that he's at, the prison's name is Camp

32:37

Hill, which I think it's probably far from a camp, but.

32:39

Oh, it's. It's 59 years old. Yeah. Yeah.

32:42

So, yeah. He. Just

32:44

frightening. And so, you know, there was a

32:46

lot of debate about his intellectual disability

32:48

and how that went and

32:50

not getting a death sentence, I guess, or

32:53

not being handed a death sentence. But

32:55

you do, again, I mentioned, you know, he

32:57

carries the kill kit. So this is all

32:59

premeditated. He also knows what to do with

33:01

them. He knows what kind of victims will

33:03

be likely to not be as missed as

33:05

the quote unquote white debutante that he said.

33:08

So I think all of that goes into play. He

33:11

knew what he was doing. Is all I gonna say about that?

33:13

I agree. And then I looked to

33:15

see what the cutoff was to the

33:17

death penalty, right? What the mental IQ is and it's

33:20

70. But

33:22

some states, I think, was it Florida?

33:24

Let me see here. There was a

33:26

big lawsuit because, yeah, it was Florida.

33:29

They had a decision whether or not to

33:31

execute Freddie Lee Hall, who was

33:33

eligible for execution because his score was 71.

33:37

With the cutoff is a 70. Yeah,

33:40

and they go on to say that it's

33:42

just not the

33:45

mental capability. There's also

33:47

other things commonly suffer

33:49

from multi-dimensional mental problems.

33:52

The ruling will affect other states with similar

33:54

cutoffs such as Kentucky, Virginia, and Alabama.

33:57

So yeah. I do think there was somebody that

33:59

was on death row. And I get there

34:01

are I wholeheartedly believe certain people should

34:03

be on death row and certain people

34:05

shouldn't so just about a year

34:07

ago We had a gentleman who was put

34:09

to death and they were kept saying that

34:12

he shouldn't be put to death because

34:14

of his extremely low IQ and

34:16

let me just say when I watched the interview

34:18

with him, he had no idea what he was

34:21

doing He didn't know why he was there. He

34:23

didn't understand what was upcoming in just the next

34:25

couple hours Genuinely can

34:27

tell right he should not have been

34:29

put to death But then

34:32

I guess that also goes back boy Am I

34:34

a Libra or what I can justify anything goes back

34:36

to the fact that he might not know what's going

34:38

on about being put To death, but yet he killed

34:40

somebody so you go to that too, you know Mm-hmm

34:43

and wasn't remember the chain of rocks Murders

34:46

with Julie and Robin Carey wasn't

34:49

that person wasn't he

34:51

not given the death penalty? Am I remembering that

34:53

wrong? I believe so he was and

34:55

then was taken off, but that's there's a lot

34:57

going on there, right? Let me tell you. Oh,

34:59

yeah, that's so good on that rabbit hole for

35:02

sure. Yeah. No, I agree I mean

35:04

you just can't use you have to look at the

35:06

whole thing like he might have had an IQ of

35:08

56 He

35:10

also maybe like me doesn't test well I

35:13

was kind of thinking it was it was

35:15

a little remarkable that the one during his

35:18

trial He was tested lower than the one

35:20

that he had taken previously. Huh? Yeah, interesting

35:23

You can fake it I think so which

35:25

even goes back to tell you that he's

35:27

he's smarter than But there

35:29

needs to be just you can't just

35:31

do the cut off of mental

35:33

disability You have to look at the

35:35

whole picture as with everything just can't

35:38

not everything's black and white Jen

35:41

and I are both liberals and I swish back

35:43

and forth all the time and I said I've said

35:45

this a million times I Wholeheartedly

35:48

believe some people will never be fixed

35:51

I'd look upon it to the victim's family on

35:53

how they would choose Do they want would you

35:55

feel better if this person was taken out of

35:57

this world others prefer them?

36:00

to suffer prison's terrible suffrage, which,

36:02

and this goes back to Ariel

36:04

Castro, who was the man in

36:06

Ohio that abducted those three girls

36:08

and kept them for years, years.

36:11

He didn't make it 30 days in

36:13

prison before he completed suicide, right? And

36:15

he kept those girls in captivity for

36:18

years, decades. And so it's sometimes

36:20

I think that is worse than death, because

36:22

death, you're done. I remember

36:24

when Susan Smith

36:26

killed her kids, and

36:28

she was in a sentencing

36:31

part. And this is

36:33

when I was working at bookstores. And one of

36:36

the guys I was talking to him like, she

36:38

deserves to be executed. I

36:40

mean, she purposefully murdered her children

36:42

because she wanted a man. And

36:45

that man didn't want kids. I mean, that's

36:47

just the lowest to me. I

36:49

mean, just like Diane Downs, same thing. Yeah, seriously.

36:51

I just think it's disgusting.

36:54

And the guy that I was speaking to said,

36:58

I don't, I think she deserves to be in a

37:00

small cell with pictures of

37:02

her kids everywhere. So

37:04

she's reminded every day of why

37:06

she's in there. And I'm like, you know what? That's not

37:09

a bad idea. Chris Watts. Yeah.

37:12

Chris Watts. But Chris Watts seemingly was normal, quote

37:15

unquote, normal. Also was Susan Smith. You

37:17

know? Speaking of which, we just

37:19

had something very similar to Susan Smith happen here

37:22

in St. Louis. Well,

37:24

but she didn't kill for a man. You want to

37:26

go ahead and tell her what it is? Or tell everyone? Well,

37:29

so we know that we know of yet because of course

37:31

the details aren't out there. So I believe she was 36

37:34

and she's local here. Took

37:36

out her two-year-old son and

37:39

tried to quote unquote, sacrifice him. She drowned

37:41

him. When that

37:43

failed, then she took him and drowned

37:45

him at a resort lake, the fountain. I

37:48

don't have that, whatever. All the time, her

37:50

nine-year-old daughter's in the car and shot her

37:52

daughter and then drove to the police station

37:54

to turn herself in. And that happened about

37:57

a week ago. Right. religious

38:00

delusions, you know? Well, on her Facebook

38:02

page, she had many quotes of the

38:04

Bible and then she turned her Facebook

38:07

profile picture to black and then the

38:09

last thing I think she put was

38:11

they've tricked me. Yeah.

38:14

Definitely some mental issues going on. Yeah. And

38:17

it's... We don't know. We'll keep

38:19

you updated on that. Like I said, that just happened.

38:21

Yeah, but thus we heard was it was, she claimed it

38:23

was a sacrifice. Terrible. Awful.

38:26

Well, Jen, that's it for today. I guess

38:28

we will see you next Wednesday. Yep.

38:31

Same time. We'll be here. Same

38:33

channel. Right here. We'll

38:35

be here. Four o'clock. You'll

38:38

be here too. We'll meet you. Yep. Uh-huh.

38:41

That's right. And until then, remember, lock your

38:43

doors. Keep passing by those open windows. Bye-bye. Love

38:46

you. Today's

38:52

episode was researched and written by me,

38:54

Cam. For more information about this episode,

38:56

as well as all the sources I

38:58

used, please check out our show

39:01

notes or the podcast

39:03

website at archerocrimepodcast.com. Archer

39:06

Crime Podcast is developed and created by hosts

39:08

Jen and Cam. Original

39:10

music and audio mix of all

39:12

Archer Crime Podcast episodes is courtesy

39:14

of Nico Bertese from We Talk

39:16

of Dreams. Listener discretion

39:18

is provided by Edward October from

39:20

October Pod VHS. Archer

39:23

Crime Podcast is executive produced by

39:26

Nico Bertese and Dick Vane.

39:29

Make sure to like and subscribe to Archer

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Crime Podcast wherever you listen to your podcast.

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We can be reached on Instagram and

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