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savings and more inspiring flavors. You

4:00

have the risk factor

4:02

that comes with divorce, the drastic

4:04

reduction in self-esteem. The message really

4:06

changes to parents. The message really

4:08

changes to fathers who are divorcing.

4:11

They used to think of themselves

4:13

as the provider, the

4:15

supporter, the protector, the helper, and

4:18

often the message becomes reversed in the process. You're

4:21

a difficult person to be with at best. You're

4:23

a scary person to be with at worst. You

4:26

shouldn't be around your kids as much as you

4:28

would like. It's not a good idea or you

4:31

don't deserve it. However, you want to think about

4:33

it. Financial pressures can really mount once all

4:36

the financial pressures

4:38

can really

4:41

mount, once

4:44

all the financial legal matters get taken into

4:46

account, you split property and then maybe there's

4:49

alimony to pay child support and so on.

4:51

So a lot of

4:53

really difficult messaging and stressors are coming

4:55

toward the fathers and they

4:57

have very little skill with

5:00

getting support essentially from

5:02

existing relationships or developing new

5:04

relationships to get the support.

5:06

Dr. Iran, what puts divorcing

5:08

dads at such a

5:10

higher risk of feeling

5:13

suicidal? At the bottom line, it's

5:15

the fact that many men in the

5:17

US don't have strong relationships outside of their

5:19

family. So once that

5:22

falls apart, they

5:24

really don't have anyone that

5:26

they're turning to, talking to and getting support

5:28

from. They're just stuck

5:30

with their own thoughts in their own heads

5:32

and become increasingly more isolated and

5:35

despairing. That's the most important

5:37

thing, that they're not talking to anyone. The most

5:39

important thing for divorcing dads to do is

5:41

to talk to someone. It's opening up to

5:43

a friend, to a family member, to a

5:45

therapist. There's lots of people that want to

5:48

help. Reaching out to those

5:50

people makes all the difference. If

5:52

you are a good friend, perhaps

5:54

a coworker, a sibling

5:57

of a man going through a divorce, here's

5:59

the truth. that, reach out

6:02

and assume, as Dr. Iran

6:04

said, that he is having

6:06

trouble right from the get-go

6:09

and many depend on you. So

6:11

intervene, be present with him, and

6:13

stick with him. That's a critical

6:16

factor in healing, is what I'm

6:18

hearing you say. Yeah, and

6:20

just be explicit. It doesn't have to be a

6:22

lot of big words, right? Just saying, you

6:27

know, I'm here for you. I want to make sure

6:29

that you're okay. Anything you need, let me know. Okay,

6:31

I really care about you. I don't want anything bad

6:33

to happen to you, right? And I

6:35

want your kids to have you in their lives for a long,

6:37

long time, okay? So I'm here for you. That's

6:40

it. And this message bears repeating

6:42

on a weekly basis. It's okay

6:45

to say it, but just simple,

6:47

explicit statements about you caring and

6:49

you wanting to help. Talk about

6:51

a father's relationship before divorce and

6:53

after. Because if after

6:55

divorce, his self-esteem plummets,

6:57

he's alone, he has

7:00

no support through friendships.

7:02

How does his relationship with his

7:05

kids change, either because of those

7:07

factors or just

7:09

because it accentuates the problems he

7:11

had perhaps before the divorce with

7:13

his kids? I think it depends a

7:16

lot on the kind of relationship that the father had

7:18

with the kids before the separation or the divorce in

7:20

the age of the kids is really crucial

7:22

here as well. A

7:24

lot of the times what I'm seeing is that

7:26

as fathers access to their kids becomes more and

7:28

more restricted, they want to spend more and more

7:30

time with their kids, sometimes even more than before.

7:33

And there's a silver lining there, right?

7:35

They really become very oriented toward their

7:37

kids in the relationship with

7:39

the kids. But very often,

7:41

at least in the short

7:43

term, the first few months as the dust

7:45

settles, the relationship in the

7:47

father's eyes becomes weaker. And that's one of

7:49

the really sad things that you see the

7:51

fathers feel like, oh, I'm spending less time

7:53

with my kids. I have less access to

7:55

them. I don't talk to them as often.

7:58

We must be drawing apart the kid side.

8:00

That's often not the case. Kids, especially young

8:02

kids, have a very different perception of time.

8:04

Anyway, they don't see the gap so much.

8:07

But the fathers are really frightened

8:10

that the relationship is starting to

8:12

unravel. Then

8:14

over time, as things stabilize, that becomes really dependent

8:16

on the agreement that the parents reach or that

8:19

the court orders, if that's the case in terms

8:21

of the access to the kids, whether

8:24

the fathers will have more time with the kids or less.

8:26

I think that the biggest risk

8:30

to the kids really, and to the relationship is

8:32

when fathers essentially tap out, they just give up.

8:35

They say, this is too hard. I can't make this

8:37

work. There are too many barriers to the connection. Maybe

8:39

I'm actually bad for my kids. I keep getting the

8:41

message that I'm not a good person. Maybe

8:43

it's better for them if I'm not in their life. That's

8:46

where the real tragedy happens, in my

8:48

opinion, when they back out out of

8:50

a sense of defeat and give up

8:52

on the relationship. It really

8:54

doesn't matter. Because

8:57

you're making sense of what

8:59

I've seen, but I couldn't

9:01

articulate. It doesn't really matter

9:03

what socioeconomic area that fathers

9:06

come from because in my experience, a father is

9:08

a father is a father. They

9:10

want close connection with their kids, even

9:12

if they have no idea how to

9:15

get there. Let's

9:17

back up for a minute. Talk

9:19

about the emotional deposits that you

9:21

talk about putting into your kids,

9:23

specifically fathers, and how you can

9:26

put those into what you call a bank

9:29

account. It would seem to me that when

9:31

you're talking about being

9:33

fully present with your kids, those

9:36

are times that you would deposit

9:38

into your child's account in a

9:40

positive way. So

9:42

how can a father, when they're

9:45

fully present with their child, put

9:49

emotional chips, I guess, into

9:51

that account? Because I think

9:54

sometimes fathers will know, well, I

9:56

want to be fully present, and

9:59

mothers. But they really don't

10:01

know how, and then when they are one-on-one

10:03

with their kids, kind of don't

10:06

know what to do and how to

10:08

connect. So can you walk us through

10:10

that very specific situation where a father

10:12

says, I want to do something

10:14

one-on-one with my child. Then

10:17

they get there, and they don't know

10:19

what to do. I think about the strength of

10:21

relationship like a bank account. And

10:24

the currency that's in the bank account is goodwill, really. And

10:26

the question is, how much goodwill do you have toward me,

10:28

and how much goodwill do I have toward you? And

10:31

I want to make deposits into that relational

10:34

bank accounts, or relational deposits, to increase the

10:36

amount of goodwill. And I want

10:38

to minimize the amount of withdrawals that I make. Because

10:40

when there's very little goodwill, then everything

10:43

I ask for will be denied or rejected.

10:45

And when there's a lot of goodwill, everything

10:47

becomes easy. And so my general approach to

10:49

parenting is focus on the relationship constantly and

10:51

always. Don't worry so much about the tactical

10:54

small things. Build

10:56

a strong relationship. And if it's there, collaboration

10:58

is there, vulnerability is there, forgiveness is there,

11:00

everything becomes easy. And

11:03

the main ways to make relational

11:05

deposits is to show your kid that you

11:07

care about your kid and to show your

11:09

kid that you respect your kid. These

11:11

are the two things, care and respect. And

11:14

you have to show it in a way that makes sense to

11:16

the kid. Because of course, we love our kids, and we want

11:18

to do everything good for them, but they may not always see

11:20

it in what we do.

11:22

And so to be able to verbalize it,

11:25

to make it explicit is super helpful, super

11:27

important. There are lots and lots

11:29

of ways to show people we care about them. We arrange

11:34

for activities that they like, or

11:36

we bring them things that they like, or

11:38

we tell them how much we care about them, or we check

11:40

in with them to see how they're doing and we listen to

11:43

them and we care and so on. And there are lots of

11:45

ways to show people that we respect them, like speaking

11:47

to them politely, as opposed to

11:50

relying on the power differential and

11:53

just slamming down instructions or directions,

11:56

taking their opinion into consideration and consulting with

11:58

them about things. a great way of showing

12:00

respect, respecting their boundaries when they say not

12:02

now, saying, okay, let's do this later,

12:05

things like that. So that's kind

12:07

of a general primer to relational

12:09

bank accounting. In

12:12

terms of dads and things to do when

12:14

you're with your kid, I think

12:16

the easiest thing to do and the best thing to

12:18

do, so that's like a nice two for, is

12:21

to follow the child. Right?

12:23

You check what is the child interested

12:25

in, what does the child want to do, and then

12:28

you do exactly that. And if you had any kind of

12:30

preconceived notions, just let go of them. And if the child

12:32

changes his opinion or her opinion in the middle, then you

12:34

follow the child. So a lot will depend on

12:37

the age of the child. If you're a

12:39

three-year-old and you have a good

12:42

half-hour chunk with your kid and you just kind of plop

12:44

down on the carpet in front of your kid and you

12:46

say, hey, what's going on? And your

12:48

kid says whatever your kid says. And you say, want to play

12:51

something? And the kid will go, yeah, let's

12:53

play with the Lego Star Wars. And you're like, fine. Like

12:55

you don't really come up with ideas. Or the kid will say,

12:57

yeah, let's pretend to be grasshoppers. And you say, OK. And

13:00

you do that. So it's being willing to

13:02

just follow the child and be silly. Older

13:05

kids will have more specific things that they want to do

13:07

that might require more prep. And so

13:09

maybe part of what could be nice to do is to make plans

13:12

with them and say, hey, it's Thursday. We're going

13:14

to have a bunch of time. What do you want to do?

13:16

Right? And that's a nice way of showing

13:18

respect and consulting with the child as well about the things that we're going

13:20

to do. So I guess

13:22

I would, the very short answer is

13:24

you follow the child. And you ask the child what

13:26

they want to do if they have no ideas. Maybe

13:28

you throw out some things until something sticks. But

13:32

you want to inspire them to lead, basically.

13:35

And as soon as they do, you start following them. I

13:37

love it. Is this process harder

13:40

for divorce dads than

13:43

non-divorce dads? This

13:45

idea of being fully present

13:47

with them and looking

13:49

at them as putting goodwill into

13:51

their bank account. It

13:54

would seem to me, but I'm a married

13:56

woman, so I don't know. It would seem

13:58

to me. that the process

14:01

might be easier if you

14:03

have a stable home,

14:05

fairly stable relationship with your

14:08

spouse than if

14:10

everything is broken in your life.

14:12

Talk about how a divorced dad

14:15

navigates this. Is it harder and is

14:18

there something else he should do? So

14:21

one thing I want to say

14:23

right off the bat that's really important is I think it's

14:25

important to avoid thinking about broken

14:27

dads as people for whom everything is broken

14:29

in their life. It's

14:32

also an easy way for divorced dads or divorcing

14:34

dads especially in the process of divorce to think

14:36

about their lives and it's very important to be

14:38

able to pull out of that frame. Say

14:41

actually a lot of things are wonderful. I have

14:43

a lot going for me here. This

14:46

particular issue is very bad. It's very important.

14:48

It's very difficult. It will get better. People

14:51

have figured it out. I'll figure it out too. I have

14:53

people who want to support me. I have a good relationship

14:55

with my kids or will have a great relationship with my

14:57

kids. But it's just so dangerous

14:59

to equate divorce with

15:02

everything broken. With respect

15:04

to your question about is it harder

15:06

for divorced or divorcing dads to have this quality

15:08

time with their kids, I think

15:10

there's kind of a paradoxical effect where for

15:13

dads who are divorcing and are starting to

15:15

feel how their

15:17

access to their kids is slipping away. The

15:21

focus becomes so intense on wanting time

15:23

with their kids that actually they're probably

15:25

more present with their

15:27

kids during the times they have together

15:29

than dads who are not divorced or

15:33

divorcing. Dads who have

15:35

access at will to their kids.

15:38

You can see it's a real kind

15:40

of happy irony I think that

15:42

sometimes parents who have their kids all

15:44

the time and just live with them

15:46

and are together and there's no issue

15:49

may have very little focused

15:51

quality time with their kids. Parenting

15:54

kind of happens along the way. Whereas

15:56

with parents that have more respect. restricted

16:00

access to their kids are super focused and plan

16:02

ahead for the times that they will have the

16:04

kids and silence their phone and put it

16:06

away when they're with their kids which is unimaginable to parents who

16:08

have access to their kids all the time like why would I

16:10

do this? I need my phone. We'll

16:13

die without our phone. But

16:15

with parents who have only occasional

16:18

access to their kids, right,

16:20

it becomes super focused time and it can

16:22

actually be very high quality time. And

16:26

the nice silver lining there is that this

16:30

happens and that

16:32

parent still has time for his or her

16:35

own life, right? A divorced parent

16:37

is super focused on the child when with the child

16:39

but then also has time without the child and

16:41

it can actually have child free time

16:43

to do grownups. So

16:47

there is a benefit there in a sense, although

16:50

it's a circumstance I don't wish on anyone.

16:53

But I would say that if anything that the divorced

16:55

parents have more focus typically

16:58

when they're with their kids, the challenges

17:01

in terms of planning activities, again, there's

17:03

just more restricted schedules. Sometimes

17:05

the schedule is unclear so it's harder

17:07

to plan ahead sometimes. Sometimes

17:10

it's very possible. Again, people put a lot of focus

17:12

and attention into it which is really nice. Often

17:15

what I see is

17:17

that the animosity between

17:19

the ex-spouse. That

17:22

spouse can try to sabotage

17:24

a father's relationship with

17:26

his child and it's

17:29

a very, very hard situation. So

17:31

speak to the dad out there whose

17:35

ex is bad

17:37

mouthing him, telling the kids

17:39

that they should not be with their dad,

17:42

that he's not trustworthy and

17:45

even telling the kids things that

17:47

aren't necessarily true about the dad. And

17:51

those all impact a child's perception

17:53

of the father, particularly if they're

17:55

younger. How does

17:57

the father navigate that and what do they

17:59

do? First off, I'll say, obviously,

18:01

this is a problem that can come from either

18:03

direction, right? Some dads do this, some moms do

18:05

this. I don't want to, you know, come off

18:08

saying that moms are evil and dads are angels.

18:11

But when an ex does this, it's hugely

18:14

challenging, right? It's so upsetting for a father

18:16

to hear a kid say,

18:18

oh, mom said that you're this and that, or

18:20

mom said that I should be very careful when

18:22

I blah, blah with you. And it's heartbreaking. And

18:24

it's terrifying because the fear

18:27

is that the relationship will unravel,

18:29

right? Or that two will even fail

18:31

to bond if the child is young

18:33

enough. It's super scary for the fathers

18:36

in this case. So

18:38

there are a few things to do. First, most

18:42

importantly, it's very important for fathers

18:44

to remember. And if you're a

18:47

person supporting a father to remind

18:49

the father that it's very hard

18:51

to break the bond between a

18:53

child and a parent. Very,

18:55

very hard. There are parents

18:57

who have done awful things to their

19:00

kids and their kids are still feeling

19:02

this this pull to connect with the

19:04

parent to somehow find a way to

19:07

have a strong relationship. It's very hard

19:09

to do that. And, and

19:11

fathers who are worried about these things are probably not the

19:13

fathers who are doing horrible things to their

19:15

kids. It's scary. It's super

19:18

scary, but it's likely not going to

19:20

actually break the bond. So that's the

19:23

most important thing to remember, just like to be able to calm

19:25

down about it. Secondly, it's

19:27

illegal to bad mouth the

19:29

other parent. So with any

19:31

kind of any

19:34

kind of court involvement, including

19:36

any kind of parenting plan that happens in

19:38

court, one of the requirements, essentially

19:41

always one

19:43

of the requirements in any parenting plan is to

19:45

never speak ill of the other parent with it

19:47

within your shot of the child and to not

19:49

allow family members and visitors to do the same.

19:52

It's a big, big deal in the legal system to be

19:54

bad mouthing and to try to alienate

19:57

the child from the other parent. It's a huge

19:59

no-no. And so even

20:02

pointing that out to the other parent,

20:06

and I'm a big fan of polite

20:08

communication, kind of like when you have

20:11

nothing polite to say, better to say nothing. But

20:15

to point this out politely, clearly

20:17

to say, here's what I've heard

20:19

from our child. I'm

20:23

not sure if there's something you actually told the child

20:25

or not, because I don't know if the child is

20:27

saying accurate things. I just want to point out that

20:30

this is super damaging to the relationship and also super

20:32

illegal. So

20:34

please make sure not to make

20:37

the child think that I'm somehow a bad person and

20:39

so on. So I think you can point

20:41

this out to the other parent. Most

20:44

importantly though, and

20:46

maybe counterintuitively, and

20:48

there's a whole, I did a video

20:51

on this on the website on divorcingdots.org,

20:54

and people are welcome to go see it there.

20:56

But the bottom line is just

21:00

don't worry about it. The kid learns

21:02

about you from being with you. And if

21:04

you are an awesome person and then the kid goes

21:06

home and the other, the ex

21:08

says, oh, your dad's a horrible person,

21:11

your kid's going to be confused maybe, but

21:13

will not just take somebody else's

21:15

word over their own direct experience with you.

21:17

So you just be awesome. Definitely

21:20

don't counter bad mouth the other

21:23

parent. Definitely

21:25

don't bring the conflict into the relationship

21:27

with the child. If the child says,

21:29

oh, mommy said that you kick puppies

21:31

before dinner every day, you could say,

21:35

that's very strange. I definitely don't kick puppies.

21:38

I love puppies. I

21:40

think you know this. That's

21:43

very strange. And then you move on. So

21:46

that at that point already in the kid's head

21:48

is, oh, that's very strange, but

21:50

it's not a fight, a war between people

21:52

because the main thing that really hurts kids

21:55

and separations and divorces

21:57

is the conflict between the

21:59

parents exposure. conflict. Take

22:01

away the exposure to the conflict. There are many kids

22:03

growing up quite happy to

22:06

divorce parents. And so to recap,

22:10

I would say one, remember the relationship will

22:15

not crumble as a result of you

22:17

getting badmouthed. Two, put

22:19

your ex on notice. Just say, I'm

22:22

hearing these things very concerning

22:24

to me. Do it in writing. And

22:26

I'm hearing these things very concerning

22:28

to me. If it keeps happening,

22:30

seek counsel. It's a very, very

22:32

big no-no in the legal system

22:34

to badmouthe other parent. And just

22:37

be great with your kid. Like, don't worry about it

22:39

too much. Express confusion if you

22:41

need to about this.

22:44

Express puzzlement. But don't get into it. Don't turn it

22:46

into a big battle. You don't need to convince your

22:49

kid that you're awesome. You just need to be awesome

22:51

with your kid. Well, thank

22:53

you for saying that, because I

22:55

have found that particularly with fathers who

22:57

find themselves drifting away from their kids,

22:59

because their kids are acting

23:02

out, they're angry with their father, they

23:04

go to their father's home, they don't

23:06

want to talk to them. They're having

23:08

temper tantrums because they feel this huge

23:11

tension between mom and dad. And

23:13

a lot of fathers

23:16

in my experience become despondent

23:18

after two, three, four years

23:21

of feeling badmouthed and

23:24

that their relationship is being

23:26

twisted by their ex. Just

23:29

give up. And they feel,

23:31

my child will never

23:33

love me, doesn't want me. And

23:37

correct me if I'm wrong here, because this is

23:39

what I say, but I'm not a psychologist. I

23:41

say, hang on. Just

23:44

take the high road and stick with

23:46

your child, because often what they say

23:48

and how they feel when they're 12

23:51

or 15

23:53

is not how they feel when they're 22 or

23:55

25. And that kids

23:58

recognize what's good. and

24:00

true and right in a

24:02

parent. Is

24:05

that true? I love how you put it. Take the

24:07

high road is exactly the takeaway.

24:09

I'll probably just use that phrase from now on.

24:11

Yeah, thank you for that. So yeah, take the

24:14

high road and focus on your kid, not on

24:16

your ex. And don't

24:18

try to feel like you're

24:20

the kid's counselor in helping their relationship with

24:22

your mother because you're not a counselor, your

24:24

dad. And if you're worried about that,

24:27

to take them to a counselor. I would say also,

24:29

and don't

24:32

put your child in the position of being somehow

24:34

a judge of

24:37

the relationship that you have or had with

24:40

the mother before. It's not on

24:42

the kid. It's not for the kid.

24:45

It's tremendously damaging for the kid to

24:48

try to figure out who's right and who's

24:50

wrong. Totally sidestep it. Up to

24:52

and including, tell the kid,

24:54

I don't want to talk about this with

24:57

you. I don't think it's something we need to discuss. And

24:59

if it gets to a point of like what happened

25:01

and oh, she says this and you sit out to

25:03

say, look, clearly we don't see eye to eye. We

25:05

both love you very much. You're the most important thing

25:07

in our lives. I'm so glad

25:09

we have all this time together or that

25:11

we have whatever time we have together. I

25:14

love being with you. You

25:16

are my priority and things did not work out

25:18

with your mom or if the kid is much

25:20

younger, like, you know, your mom and I decided

25:22

that we don't want to live together anymore.

25:25

But that has nothing to do with you. Right.

25:27

And I'm here with you to be with you

25:30

and to constantly bring it back to the

25:32

relationship with the kid rather than think

25:34

that the kid is somehow keeping score of like who's

25:37

more right and who's just again

25:39

sidestep it. The kid, as you

25:42

said, will recognize the

25:44

parent who's just being a parent and not

25:46

trying to recruit the kid as an agent.

25:49

I have to take a quick break. But before I go,

25:51

I want to invite you

25:53

to visit Dr. Meg meeker.com

25:55

where you can find a

25:57

plethora of resources for your

25:59

parents. journey. Explore our courses,

26:02

join our free coaching webinar,

26:04

and take our Parent Personality

26:06

Quiz. We'll be right back.

26:08

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in the show notes for quick access. Divorcing

29:58

deaths are at higher risk

30:01

for suicide. So what

30:04

can a loving

30:06

family member outside of

30:08

the ex-spouse look for

30:11

in a divorcing dad who

30:13

may be a friend, a sibling? What

30:16

are the signs they should look for and

30:18

how should they intervene if they see

30:20

those signs of depression

30:23

that could lead to suicide developing?

30:26

Divorcing dads out of

30:28

all men's demographics are

30:30

the highest risk for suicide. So

30:34

all other marital statuses, I should say,

30:36

right? Higher than single, widow, married, any.

30:38

So just becoming a divorced

30:40

dad increases your risk for suicide by

30:42

a lot, instantly. And

30:46

if you are somebody who's close to a divorcing dad,

30:48

I would not be looking for signs. They're

30:50

already at risk, right?

30:53

And so I would start checking

30:56

in frequently, right?

30:58

At least once a week, ideally a couple of times

31:00

a week, maybe more than that, up

31:04

to and including daily or multiple times. All

31:07

of this is on the table. They are at

31:09

high risk as soon as they're starting a divorce

31:11

process that involves kids. And

31:14

so start checking in frequently, ask them

31:16

how they're doing, ask them how they're

31:18

feeling. If they seem despondent,

31:21

like you said before, or if

31:23

they're super upset, check if

31:26

they see improvement down the line, like, do you

31:28

think it's always gonna be bad? Like this likely

31:30

they'll say yes, like I don't see any hope.

31:32

Ask them explicitly, are you thinking about hurting yourself

31:34

or killing yourself? Many people are worried

31:36

that by asking this, you could put the idea into people's

31:38

head. You cannot. People don't hear somebody ask

31:40

them, are you thinking about killing yourself and go, oh,

31:42

that's a good idea. It doesn't occur to

31:44

me. It doesn't happen. So ask

31:47

them about this. And

31:50

don't be afraid because if they do say yes,

31:52

there are things you can do. I'll

31:55

talk about this in a second, but don't be afraid

31:57

of the answer. Think about this as asking people, Do

32:00

you have like a big bleed somewhere right now? Right?

32:02

Like it's important to know to be able to help

32:05

So start checking in immediately check in

32:07

frequently multiple times a week ask

32:09

them how they're doing ask them about suicidality

32:14

Every couple of weeks basically

32:17

and offer And

32:21

be available to them as much as possible

32:24

Right. So tell them call me anytime you need

32:27

I'm here for you. I want to be helpful Let's

32:29

think through this and so on. I mean I have a lot more

32:31

to say about how to support Divorcing

32:33

dads, but but these are the basics in

32:36

terms of what I mentioned before about asking

32:38

about suicidality. So the question is Have

32:41

you been thinking about hurting yourself or killing

32:43

yourself? And

32:46

if they say yes to say We

32:49

should make sure that you talk to somebody right

32:51

away because your kids need you now

32:53

and in the future The

32:56

the hook into the hearts of Dads

32:59

many parent is Their

33:01

kid this will never fail and

33:04

it has the friend of mine likes to say

33:06

the added advantage of being true They're

33:10

doing you them their would Be

33:14

much worse off if their father died by

33:16

suicide or for any other reason The

33:19

kids need the parents they do Parents

33:21

and so to say this to a parent

33:24

will stop the parent in their tracks if

33:26

they're thinking about hurting themselves Right

33:28

and might even get them to say okay. Yes Come

33:31

see me. Let's go to the emergency

33:34

room if that's where it is And

33:36

you can you can literally just go with somebody to the emergency

33:38

room I'm having a lot of

33:40

thoughts about killing myself I you know, it's hard for me

33:42

to not think but I think I might do it I'm

33:44

really worried about it. You just go to the ER if

33:47

it's not there, but you feel that things are escalating The parent

33:49

is like yeah, I'm thinking about it I don't want to do

33:51

it But I keep thinking about it and I

33:53

just don't know if there's a point of being alive like this when

33:55

you know I don't even know if I'm any good to my kids

33:58

You reaffirm strongly. You are

34:02

very important to your kids, even if you don't see it right

34:04

now, even if they're not talking to you right now and you

34:06

haven't spoken in a year, you're super important in their lives. And

34:09

when 20 and 30, their story should be,

34:11

and then my dad came back, it

34:14

should not be, and then my dad died

34:16

or was that. And

34:18

then help your

34:21

friend, family member, whoever that

34:23

father is, connect with support.

34:26

Therapy hotline like 988, right? Available

34:28

24-7. You

34:30

just dial 988 from your phone. They're available

34:32

24-7. It's a free, confidential, national level suicide prevention

34:35

service and crisis line. So you can just

34:37

talk to somebody there. If you're really upset,

34:39

you don't have to be suicidal. Tell

34:41

them about the resources, help them connect to

34:43

the resources up to and including setting up

34:46

an initial appointment with them, bringing them to

34:48

that initial appointment if it's a therapist or

34:50

going with them to the ER. It's

34:52

rare, but it really can happen. You don't want to

34:54

get a person saying, oh, I guess I just missed

34:56

it. They're at

34:59

risk as soon as they're starting the divorce

35:01

process and the risk is highest soon

35:05

after. That's the acute period.

35:07

But then there will be bumps afterwards when again,

35:09

the risk will rise depending on the vicissitudes of

35:11

how the unraveling of

35:13

the spouse's spousal relationship goes.

35:16

You've done a lot of

35:18

work with suicide prevention. And

35:20

I just want your audience

35:22

to know that your commitment

35:25

to suicide prevention extends beyond

35:27

divorcingdads.org. And I would encourage

35:29

people who are getting a divorce,

35:31

who are supporting a man getting a divorce.

35:33

If you're in the middle of it, you

35:36

know, you're two or three years

35:38

out, go to divorcingdads.org. But

35:41

you also found it early

35:43

alert to help reduce suicide

35:45

among veterans or service members,

35:47

students, clinicians, and employees everywhere.

35:50

Do you have counselors available who

35:52

can talk to people or do

35:55

you give them recommendations as to

35:57

where to go? What does...

36:00

early alert do and how does

36:02

it help people who are struggling?

36:05

The philosophy of early alert is to check

36:07

in with people proactively in order to catch

36:11

times when people are starting to decline rather than

36:13

only find them in crisis or wait until they

36:15

reach out to us when they're in crisis. And

36:17

so we check in with people once a week

36:20

to see how they're doing. So if you're a university

36:23

student and your university works with early

36:25

alert, then students on campus

36:27

get a text message once a week saying,

36:30

how are you? In various ways, right? How is your

36:32

sleep in this past week? Do you have enough money

36:34

for your basic needs? How are friendships

36:36

going? How is your mood been? And so on one question

36:39

per week. And based on

36:41

the responses, we see if people's wellness

36:43

is declining or improving or if they're

36:45

really distressed right now. And

36:48

if they're writing something that seems like

36:51

there's a problem, but is handleable, then

36:53

we'll suggest resources on

36:55

campus, around campus, local, local resources that they

36:58

can reach out to and get support. If

37:00

we see an elevated need, we have counselors

37:02

that will call out to the

37:04

person in real time, right? You're testing us at

37:06

2 AM saying, you

37:09

know, I can't fall asleep. I'm so nervous. I don't know

37:11

how I'm going to pay rent on, I'm

37:13

worried about me and my family getting kicked out of my apartment next

37:15

month. Like you're going to get a call from a counselor within a

37:17

couple of minutes if this happens. So it's

37:19

not meant to be an ongoing counseling service,

37:22

but it's crisis response

37:25

or urgent counseling response based on these responses

37:28

to the check-ins that we're getting. And so

37:30

far, we've been working with, institutions.

37:33

So like we'll work with a university,

37:35

with a med school, with a VA

37:37

facility, and so on. We're starting to

37:39

do this now with individuals, right? So parents, this

37:41

is where different areas of my life are starting

37:43

to intersect. If parents want to have early alert,

37:45

do these check-ins with their kids because the check-ins

37:47

are confidential. So it's nice for the kids to

37:49

know it's not going right to the parents, right?

37:52

There's a kid in middle school, high school,

37:54

going off to college. And

37:57

parents want to have a system checking

37:59

in with them. them once a week and

38:01

connecting them to resources and offering counseling as

38:03

needed and so on. So that's a way

38:05

to do it as well. We're at earlyalert.me.

38:08

I was told I need to provide the URL. But

38:14

most of the work right now is institutional,

38:16

like I was saying. But yeah, I have

38:18

a strong vested interest in suicide

38:20

prevention, suicide awareness,

38:22

and I believe very strongly in

38:25

proactive work, checking in early, not waiting

38:27

for crisis. But as soon as there

38:29

are signs of decline, starting to bring

38:32

resources on board, because it's

38:34

so much harder to deal

38:36

with an ongoing crisis than

38:39

to deal with the start

38:42

of distress or even pretty

38:45

high distress that's not yet at crisis levels.

38:47

It's just so much easier to

38:50

change course, to change the trajectory of that. I

38:53

want to, as we finish, I want to

38:55

let our audience know that depression and

38:59

suicidality is treatable,

39:02

that there is hope for

39:04

people, even if they're pondering

39:06

suicide and they have a severe

39:08

depression. Is that an accurate statement?

39:11

Yeah, on multiple levels. I mean, first of all, a

39:15

lot of people who die by

39:17

suicide have had no mental health

39:19

diagnosis, about half. It's

39:22

not even necessarily a mental health thing.

39:24

Why is that? So

39:26

suicide is usually

39:28

impulsive. And

39:31

this is part of why suicide

39:33

prevention methods that seem kind of

39:35

silly at first

39:37

glance, this is why they work. This

39:39

is why people used to jump a lot off of

39:42

Golden Gate Bridge, and then they started installing some fences

39:44

that make it harder to climb over the bridge, and

39:47

some nets to catch people to. And

39:50

the number of deaths by suicide dropped,

39:52

because people in a moment of despair

39:55

decide to end their lives. It's

39:58

not usually something that's... planned

40:01

out foreign advance and

40:04

people are super determined to do it because it's true

40:06

when people are determined to die, they will die. You

40:08

can't really stop someone from killing themselves. But

40:11

most of the time it's people who are having

40:13

a very hard time and they're kind

40:15

of on the edge of

40:17

feeling this extreme despair all

40:19

the time. People may be feeling bad

40:22

for a long time. People may even be thinking about

40:24

killing themselves and how they might do it and so

40:26

on. But maybe something sets this

40:28

plan in motion and that's usually a moment of

40:30

despair. And you can get

40:32

people, ideally before this moment of despair, realizing

40:35

that they're even thinking about this and going

40:37

into treatment, great. But even if

40:39

you can get them at the moment of despair and just hold

40:41

them for a

40:43

few minutes, it passes. And

40:46

so suicide

40:49

prevention works at the acute level and

40:51

suicide prevention works at the kind of

40:54

upstream level as well.

40:56

As you said, when you identify people who

40:59

are walking around feeling very bad, maybe severely

41:01

depressed, maybe severely

41:04

despaired and connect them

41:06

with support and help them see hope,

41:10

so sadality subsides almost

41:13

always, not always, but almost always

41:15

subsides. And the biggest

41:17

protective factor against suicide,

41:21

the biggest protective factor against making a

41:23

suicide attempt is a sense of connection.

41:27

Being connected to people who care about us

41:30

or being connected to a mission that's important

41:32

to us, even that. It's

41:35

a huge protective factor and this is why just being

41:38

present in the life of

41:41

somebody who you know is going through a

41:43

hard time, being consistently present and available, telling

41:46

them they're important to you, telling them

41:48

you're happy to be there because they often think of themselves as

41:50

a burden to other people. They're

41:52

the Eeyore and they don't want to be the Eeyore. But

41:55

letting them know that you're really happy, that

41:57

they're in your life and that you like talking with them.

42:00

them and that even when they're going through a hard time,

42:02

it's a very meaningful connection and that

42:04

you're grateful for their presence in your life. It makes a

42:06

huge difference. It's the biggest

42:08

protective factor against suicide attempts. And

42:12

it sounds so simple and

42:14

it really is simple because

42:16

you're back again to

42:18

strong relationships between fathers

42:20

and kids, fathers and

42:22

a good friend. My

42:25

guest has been Dr. Eran Magan.

42:28

So that wraps up today's episode

42:30

of Parenting Great Kids. A huge

42:33

thank you to Dr. Eran Magan

42:35

for joining us today. Over the

42:37

years, we've talked a lot about

42:40

depression and suicide, but it never

42:42

feels like enough. Learning that

42:44

79% of all

42:46

people who die by suicide in

42:48

the United States are male and

42:51

how much the risk increases for

42:53

divorced men is truly shocking. And

42:56

the truth is the topic doesn't

42:58

get the attention it deserves. As

43:01

we continue this month long focus

43:03

on men's wellness in honor of

43:05

Father's Day, let's close with

43:07

this. Make it a point

43:09

to check in on those who might need

43:11

support, even if they seem to be okay.

43:14

Reach out and lend a listening ear

43:17

without judgment, especially to the men in

43:19

our lives. For sometimes

43:21

just knowing someone cares can make

43:24

all the difference. If you

43:26

or someone you know is struggling

43:28

with thoughts of suicide, please call

43:30

the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at

43:33

988 or 1-800-273-TALK. 1-800-273-8255 for

43:35

free confidential support 24 seven. If

43:49

you need additional support,

43:51

Dr. Magan's resources at

43:53

parentingforhumansanddivorcingdads.org can be incredibly

43:56

helpful. And if you

43:58

ever need one. coaching,

44:01

visit me at

44:04

meekerparenting.com/coaching. Until next

44:06

time, friends, always remember

44:09

that great kids are raised,

44:11

not born.