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1:53

and welcome to Pass The Power, Episode 18. I'm

1:56

Matt Cooper. And I'm Ivan Yates. We

1:58

have lots to talk about today. but

2:00

we're going to start with the Minister

2:02

for Justice, Helen MacKenty. And the reason

2:04

we're doing that is because he appeared

2:07

in front of the Arachtas Committee on

2:09

Justice earlier this week, and when asked

2:11

questions about immigration, I think it's fair

2:13

to say she floundered. It was quite

2:15

an extraordinary performance, almost like watching a

2:17

car crash in slow motion politically. And

2:20

it was very interesting, Ivan, for a

2:22

couple of reasons. We'll get

2:24

to the substance of it in a moment, but

2:26

it did strike me, you WhatsApp'd me the video

2:29

the other night. At the same time, I got it from

2:31

two other people. This was suddenly doing the rounds.

2:34

And it was a five-minute clip that would

2:36

not have appeared on TV news and

2:39

didn't really get picked up initially

2:41

by the newspapers. But in the

2:43

social media era, Arachtas TV

2:45

was once famously, I think, described by

2:47

Pat Rabbit as people for insomniacs to

2:49

watch. But now what happens is there

2:51

are people who are actually looking through

2:53

it, taking our clips and sharing it

2:55

in social media. And I thought the

2:57

clip of a five and a half

2:59

minutes of our under pressure from Michael

3:01

McNamara was devastating for her. Yes.

3:04

And he has legal training. He's

3:06

a legal person. And there's

3:09

a little anecdote about

3:11

Michael McNamara. I was

3:14

two years ago or whatever walking along near

3:17

Buzzwalls. And up behind me

3:19

said, Oh, you're the fellow who

3:21

insulted me. And because he was a

3:24

Labour TD and I predicted his gun and the

3:26

phrase I used was, and Michael

3:28

McNamara is very smart, but he's not as smart

3:30

as Michael McNamara thinks he is. And

3:33

he kind of stuck in his gullet

3:35

ever since. But I've always liked him.

3:37

But he was forensic in his approach

3:39

with the minister. So they were discussing

3:41

the new EU asylum pact and what

3:43

he what he forensically pursued. He went

3:45

back into what's called Dublin three, which

3:47

is this prior arrangement whereby and we're

3:49

the first state in which a refugee

3:51

arrives and that's where they make their

3:53

application to stay. And this has been

3:55

pointed out by lots of people is

3:57

that We're given that there are no direct. Like

4:00

from Africa for most countries in Africa

4:02

from Asia how do these people arrive

4:04

in to Ireland and hell am I

4:07

can see was asked to specific question

4:09

by him in relation to. One.

4:12

Hundred Nice. He had people who other

4:14

countries were willing to take back and

4:16

deal with their asylum application there and

4:18

he asked her how many of those

4:20

One hundred and eighty Eight had actually

4:22

been sent back to those countries and

4:24

the answer was three as he as

4:26

to varies basic question, where is the

4:28

problem with her department? When and the

4:30

same year of Twenty Twenty Three Germany

4:32

were able to send back four thousand,

4:34

one hundred and fifty Ace and France

4:36

able to send back three thousand, three

4:38

hundred and Eleven and he said forces

4:40

the problem. Now I've been that

4:42

soldier so the first thing you do with

4:44

you explain the process us being played so

4:47

difficult to send the best you sell you

4:49

may be tried to send them back and

4:51

saw see go into the technical d for

4:53

sustainable she says and the second thing you

4:55

do when that's not tenable you actually. Empathize

4:58

with the classes as deputy I

5:00

say, are concerned about this issue

5:02

and I'm not satisfied with this.

5:04

Instead see simply was completely or

5:06

for deaths. She had no tackling

5:08

an explanation forests she tried to

5:10

airbrush. The question certainly backfired on

5:12

the surface. Humid worse because what's

5:14

your she said twice was tennis

5:16

or when. They. Don't want to

5:18

save these people back And he was

5:20

able to play.no no no, you're missing

5:22

the point entirely. These are countries has

5:24

has. Give these applicants back to us

5:26

and we will process them so she

5:28

actually has sailed. I think it's even

5:31

since she went on our team. news

5:33

have been the following day, was unable

5:35

to clarify it hasn't on as a

5:37

matter of fact and but the other

5:39

thing that really struck me about it

5:41

as well was fast. She. Should

5:43

have seen this coming on. The

5:45

reason why she should have seen

5:47

this coming was Heroes Peace and

5:49

Sunday depended last week in which

5:51

he outlined this and other questions

5:53

in relation to the number of

5:55

refugees who had been refused their

5:57

asylum last year and we're still

5:59

way. The deportation and she wasn't able

6:01

to give a number as to Khomeini's

6:04

of actually last country. So those to

6:06

T sings that she floundered on inside

6:08

and erupted committee had been highlighted by

6:10

him in advance and a newspaper article.

6:12

So I'm not expecting her to read

6:14

all the newspaper articles that the weekends

6:17

would. you would his heart wouldn't you

6:19

The somebody in our department one of

6:21

her advisers, One. Of our presses

6:23

Isis particularly would say this is what's

6:25

your license guess And here's the answer

6:27

you should be given. So what are

6:29

they doing in her Bf So not

6:31

only was asked lamentable robbers in the

6:33

headlights out of our depth as. Michael

6:36

of Mcdougall pursued her on the question

6:38

of under the pact seeger make a

6:40

decision within six weeks, an appeal within

6:42

three months. but what is someone goes

6:44

to it's just a review and she

6:46

answered the question is if he'd asked

6:48

about appeals of this to just didn't

6:50

answer the question should never thought of

6:53

when a judicial review could take two

6:55

years in or does old systems could

6:57

be paralyzed And then Marion Harkin asked

6:59

her about will Denmark or not Opting

7:01

into this sets these are obvious questions

7:03

that should be based on what the

7:05

pointy ears This. I. Said

7:07

on this podcast that the first mistake Harris

7:09

made was reappointed us A because he could

7:11

not have a new fresh law and order

7:14

approach. but the argument that Frances Fitzgerald, another

7:16

supporters of haven't put forward tests You know

7:18

a new minister. The civil servants would run

7:20

rings around them, the be exposed and sorts.

7:22

let at least a new minister would have

7:24

the honeymoon of sayings will look I'm getting

7:27

briefed on this or share your concern deputies

7:29

and you know I mean it's not acceptable

7:31

and we will have to get a system

7:33

of deportation and face for the Dublin Three

7:35

agreements. And if we can't. Operate that how

7:38

can we operate future agreements slept even

7:40

or tomes was pathetic. see there's other

7:42

things came up and relations as well

7:44

under political or.the amounts of money to

7:46

sounds can be maybe was actually the

7:48

sweet one of the committee's any rihards

7:50

asks were like to the get twenty

7:52

songs and people this year outside of

7:54

Ukrainians who are applying onto the it's

7:56

nice for protection scheme which is much

7:58

bigger number the named him with how

8:00

to do the with previous years so

8:02

that then raises questions asked if these

8:04

people go into the system, how long

8:06

before their application is processed and if

8:08

they are rejected, how long before you

8:10

have an appeals that lands on the

8:12

ministers desks and in the event of

8:14

the appeal been rejected when are these

8:16

people deported from the country and a

8:18

few things came up here during the

8:20

week as well It's not new put

8:22

forth reemphasize and because it's very important

8:24

to the integrity of the process particularly

8:26

for those who believe that we should

8:28

have in special protection. For what

8:30

happens is us your seven thousand three

8:33

hundred people around every justice and told

8:35

the level of to stay. So.

8:37

What happens? The vast majority Them appeal.

8:40

Very. Very small number were asked the

8:42

average supporters. Ice. Which. May

8:45

sort of of us have them with the

8:47

rest of of and Simon's Harris was pushing

8:49

the line as well in recent days in

8:51

his to sense of had a must and

8:54

t does float citizen financially make sense to

8:56

start school to the expensive deporting people since

8:58

her lot of them believe anyway. And

9:01

how do we know that in these anywhere?

9:03

Where did they go to the is they've

9:05

gone to all the trouble of com into

9:07

Ireland to try and seek asylum. Why was

9:10

it enters the side? Why would we didn't

9:12

get the formal application and processed We've been

9:14

rejected to We just cause summer as we

9:16

don't know that was Molson I thought was

9:19

absolutely extorting. The second thing was had a

9:21

Mcentee again says eighty percent of those who

9:23

are common for necessity for save and long

9:25

as he's are coming in over the border

9:27

with Nord Norland. How. Does it all of

9:29

us? How. do they actually nice if

9:32

they don't know what's happening with the people

9:34

who are supposed to be deported how can

9:36

they be so precise with the numbers of

9:38

those who are coming in knowing how the

9:40

com it diverts anecdotes of magic buses com

9:42

or from the uk and also as a

9:44

whole another that's a bit like those at

9:46

magic flights from venezuela what united states i

9:48

don't put around by the now it in

9:50

a suit britain to actually dump them both

9:52

extra we have an agreement with britain's that

9:54

if they come from the uk we can

9:57

send them back from within they came to

9:59

the uk And apparently that's stuck in

10:01

judicial review, but the Brits are prepared to,

10:03

because of the common travel areas, to take

10:05

that. But on foot of

10:07

that, I mean, like I was reading,

10:09

I had a briefing given to every

10:12

backbench TD, Q&A, asylum, pact and migration.

10:14

And it asked all the questions. And

10:17

so if I was the minister, I'm putting myself

10:19

in her shoes, the big question is, if we

10:21

don't sign this, what will happen? And it says

10:23

quite explicitly here, we'll have no control and there'll

10:25

be even more numbers coming in. That's the first

10:27

line I would have used if I was her.

10:29

I'm sorry, there's a vote in the dial

10:31

next week about this and Sinn Fein now

10:33

will be voting against it. Sinn Fein's position

10:35

is interesting because it has now adopted a

10:37

line straight out of the Tory playbook about

10:41

open borders and taking back control of our

10:43

borders, which is remarkable when you see it

10:45

side by side with a lot of the

10:48

Tory stuff in relation to Brexit, that Sinn

10:50

Fein is using this line, made even more

10:53

remarkable by the fact that

10:55

its support of the government. I

10:57

mean, it may not have cheered the government.

10:59

It may not have applauded it, but it

11:01

did support the over-adclive government with Simon Kovodin's

11:04

minister for foreign affairs and all the work

11:06

it did in relation to a Brexit deal

11:08

to make sure that the border on this

11:10

island remains open quite correctly, what we needed.

11:13

So if you're going to follow into the

11:15

open borders rhetoric and taking control of our

11:17

borders, would that not suggest that they want

11:19

to close the border with the North to

11:22

stop these refugees arriving in the country? Well,

11:24

I mean, the populist position is

11:26

to be for less migration. Look

11:28

at the New Town of Kennedy

11:30

last night. These are very, very

11:33

politically fraught circumstances. But arising out

11:36

of this, I got onto

11:38

some of my sources and say, you know,

11:40

the separate issue of her not attending Westport,

11:42

the GRA conference, and what is the issue

11:44

in relation to her four-year record, Helen McAfee

11:46

on policing. And I just want to throw

11:48

some facts on you. Really

11:51

interesting facts. In

11:53

2020, the Garda force was 14,491. At

11:58

The start of this year, it was. To

12:00

thirteen thousand, nine hundred and thirty. However,

12:03

the butcher's for be on guard. she

12:05

corner has gone up to two point

12:07

three five billion. a twenty five percent

12:09

increase for less cops. Stuff went out

12:12

about us nuts paying a lot of

12:14

the overtime for those who remain who

12:16

are trying to sell the gaps for

12:18

the jobs of the happens that they've

12:20

lost are the ones with advices gross

12:23

in efficiency. Second thing, morale being low

12:25

retirements in the four year period Com

12:27

to seventeen hundred and thirty ace new

12:29

recruits, fourteen. Hundred and Twenty six. there's

12:32

more people leaving the guards and guard

12:34

to see cornice than join. It's so

12:36

police per capita, and over that period

12:38

since covert, our tourism numbers have rocketed

12:40

And so it's so The Guardian at

12:42

Soaked into the ratio Gardy to people

12:44

is gone completely wrong. Second, you know

12:47

Beeps Industries is Suzanne to this know

12:49

guard it's Francis has served When she

12:51

was Minister for Justice in Twenty, Twenty

12:53

one launched this document. Francis.

12:55

The sir he has no had a

12:58

motion sickness noted trying to twenty One

13:00

Twenty to do so. This know this

13:02

was a futuristic documents by her predecessor

13:04

on Friday and planning ahead saying it's

13:06

Twenty Twenty One forward/printed onto and the

13:09

idea was that would be twenty one

13:11

thousand involved in policing at that stage

13:13

which are comprised of the twenty one

13:15

thousand, sixteen thousand gardy, four thousand civilians

13:18

and the thousand river reservists. And so

13:20

how do we get on with does

13:22

not exceed that's I'm told. Also a

13:24

couple of major. Chains be made.

13:26

All recruitment was previously done by

13:29

the public Appointments Service worked very

13:31

well. They gave a tooth and

13:33

known. He uk from to

13:35

the recruitment and at a cost of

13:37

for millions and it's been a disaster

13:40

for recruitment of our guards he has

13:42

been outsourced absolutely I did the competitions

13:44

tooth joined the guards he is no

13:46

longer done to the public force them

13:49

and Uk from not even any you

13:51

compensation been an outside the U from

13:53

is in charge of ask so note.

13:56

To. Look at do Harris's closer Rice

13:58

see remember this, I'm Mary can

14:00

muster Stephen term money. At the

14:02

end of July, twenty twenty three

14:04

young as assaulted in Dublin city

14:07

things as the sun, the viciously

14:09

assault. So at the time he

14:11

said that reserve Gardy would be

14:13

deployed did undertake duties as such

14:15

as high visibility, patrolling, engagement and

14:17

communities and policing of events. This

14:21

was complete Pr spend was no reality

14:23

to as does a couple of hundred

14:25

reservists. The was no money provided for

14:27

their a training and didn't have the

14:29

same thing when the road deaths went

14:32

up. he said every cop enough enough

14:34

analysis of the jokes as someone investigating

14:36

a murder detective the ideas that was

14:38

just a complete him so he have

14:40

two examples for this is absolute rule

14:43

by Pr and know it gets much

14:45

worse it gets much with so this

14:47

a guard reserve the safety wardens things

14:49

has never happened. So then it it

14:52

you mentioned overtime overtime has gone up

14:54

from ninety eight million to one hundred

14:56

and four seats. And million. And some

14:58

of the anecdotes about the biden visits

15:00

are just unbelievable. soak. So what was

15:02

very close enough to guards either? Some

15:04

of the guard yeah I've been speaking

15:06

to are happy. Most take the overtime,

15:08

but they're not happy with the roster

15:10

on the sixties on for days off.

15:12

Defined as exception, it's disruptive which brings

15:14

us back to do Harris and. Drew

15:18

her response he said recently I was

15:20

asked but they need eighteen thousand guardian

15:22

force. So. We keep hearing

15:24

from the government a bonus ambitions to

15:26

get to Fifteen Thousand You've quoted the

15:28

numbers that they're actually falling lot of

15:30

the rise and but even if they

15:33

were somehow to get the number back

15:35

up to fifteen thousand is Sylvia a

15:37

source of what we need Because of

15:39

the expanding population they also keep blaming

15:41

as the delay our the break in

15:43

training of new cards for covert toes

15:45

and Temple More. That's only a very

15:47

partial answer to the problem is going

15:49

on anyway. two hours so do have

15:51

a scrapbook customer my friends at the

15:53

senior. Levels in the guards and I said

15:55

just explained to me it's about the to the

15:57

Harris guard to consume what the problem is. The

16:00

words like guess pass as going from

16:02

bad to worse. He got a five

16:04

year term and a two year extension.

16:06

Bush They'd they'd they'd they close. It's

16:08

like so ninety eight point four percent

16:10

of the generates voted no confidence in

16:12

them. so the highest vote there ever

16:14

had. So the first case as close

16:16

as is this as long taste of

16:18

a bicycle that was impounded and was

16:20

indicted things and there was this our

16:23

fellow that a guard took pity on

16:25

and the given the loan the bike

16:27

he was not the right thing to

16:29

do. This man. Was a suspended for

16:31

three years and he was pursued. So

16:33

we just say it's very vigorous the

16:36

know and isn't mean okay. he may

16:38

have broken the rules and broken procedures

16:40

both. The response was disproportionate to wanted

16:43

hikes. New mean like you know you're

16:45

hosting site shotguns taken in two thousand

16:47

and nine which has gone missing spot.

16:49

That's what you'd expect a major investigation

16:52

into has something takes into car to

16:54

storage could end up back in the

16:56

hands of criminals again subsequently rather than

16:59

a Garda given. a seller alone have

17:01

a bite and finding himself suspended for

17:03

three years for doing so so the

17:05

other cultural change is was always have

17:07

to the nor d ization of the

17:09

senior elements of the guarantee careful dog

17:12

was would like this the fact is

17:14

in the senior leadership team of our

17:16

on garda she corner the national security

17:18

service present there are four out of

17:20

nineteen from the ps and i are

17:22

you see five if you add the

17:25

replacement for john barest some a cell

17:27

with are thrown irises one woodward like

17:29

this they have a different culture of

17:31

a constabulary rather than a community based

17:33

police force that's unarmed rice and in

17:35

the garden spectra their to members from

17:38

from the are you seats but the

17:40

most lethal case of all relates to

17:42

detect of guard a column for can

17:44

who was killed in mail in males

17:46

and this was in and the seventeen

17:48

to june twenty twenty and he was

17:50

murdered when and assailant disarmed him and

17:53

fired seven eleven bullets into him and

17:55

killed him rice know the situation is

17:57

and this is still to be fully

17:59

exposed The issue related

18:01

to the holsters and whether these

18:03

guns could be taken out properly.

18:06

Apparently, the matter was disclosed to

18:08

GSoC that there were safety concerns

18:11

about these holsters. And the full

18:13

story has not... People have told

18:15

me that this is a scandal

18:17

waiting to brew. And

18:21

basically, what we have

18:23

here is a situation that

18:25

at senior levels and every level of

18:27

the Garde, no one applied for the

18:29

Assistant Commissioner job. People say

18:31

that they don't feel they'll

18:33

be supported. So, say they

18:36

take a decision on policing to strong arm

18:38

something or that

18:40

they will not be supported. They could

18:42

end up being suspended and everyone is

18:44

looking over their backs and has made

18:47

them lesser police persons. Okay, and this

18:49

is why Helen MacKenty, I think, made

18:51

an enormous political mistake by boycotting the

18:53

GRA conference this week. And that's effectively

18:56

what she did. Because the

18:58

GRA decided on the back

19:00

of the 98% vote of

19:02

no confidence in Drew Harris not to bring

19:05

him to this conference, not to invite him

19:07

to speak or to go to the dinner

19:09

afterwards, which my understanding is is unprecedented in

19:11

the history of unguarded Chicana that the Commissioner

19:14

would not be asked to the GRA conference.

19:17

She lobbied that they

19:19

rescind that decision and make

19:21

the invite. They said no.

19:23

So, a number of weeks ago, she told

19:25

the GRA she wasn't going either. Now,

19:28

to give that level of support to Drew

19:30

Harris in a situation where you saw badly

19:32

at odds with his own rank and file

19:35

is taking sides. She

19:37

could have gone to that conference and she could

19:39

have made the speech and she could have reprimanded

19:41

them if need be and said, I believe it's

19:43

wrong that you haven't asked the Commissioner here. I

19:45

wish you had. I'm going to

19:47

listen to your complaints and your issues and the rest of

19:50

it. And I will talk to him. But

19:52

instead, she effectively took his

19:54

side against them. And I

19:57

can't see how that's good politics.

19:59

So, the politics of this... is

20:01

Simon Harris had an opportunity to

20:03

rebrand, refresh, reset the whole

20:05

law and order thing, which

20:07

he spoke about publicly from

20:10

the get go. He

20:12

absolutely dropped the ball. Sorry, when was this

20:14

ad when you became Taoiseach or when? In

20:16

the reshopper. Oh yeah, because I'm sorry. He

20:18

was acting minister for justice for six months,

20:20

which makes me wonder as well, what did

20:22

he do in the job during the time

20:24

when Helen Mac and he was on maternity

20:26

leave? That it may raise questions as to

20:28

whether an acting minister actually performs

20:31

the duties or is merely a

20:33

placeholder waiting for the minister to

20:36

return because, you know, I'd

20:38

be interested in asking him about this at some

20:40

stage. And what did he actually do to advance

20:42

things or to deal with things? Or was he

20:44

feeling like we just wait until Helen Mac and

20:47

he comes back? Well, I heard that he was

20:49

very hands on. And I remember there was, I

20:51

was told this anecdote that in

20:53

Phoenix Park headquarters of the Garda,

20:55

there was absolute consternation when

20:58

he comes alone and he rocks up

21:00

at the door and he wants to

21:02

ask certain questions about certain things. This

21:04

had never happened before. There was no

21:07

forward planning or notice from the department

21:09

officials and so on. And actually people

21:11

had high regard for his period in

21:13

that he got things moving. So, but

21:16

like the essence of this is for

21:18

the entire government, the, like

21:21

I don't know if you've noticed this, but very subtly,

21:23

the spin,

21:25

the bottle has moved around to the

21:28

whole asylum issue is now no longer

21:30

about Roger Coakman. It's about Helen

21:32

Mac. And this is a nightmare for

21:34

Finnegan. But also a nightmare, isn't it?

21:37

Because bizarrely, no matter how poorly she

21:39

performs a present, and I think any

21:42

objective analysis of her performance over the

21:44

last week is that she has done

21:46

poorly. And yet she's bulletproof. She is

21:48

the minister for the remainder of this

21:51

government because he missed his chance to

21:53

move her out and put somebody else

21:55

In there. So I Think there's going to be developments on

21:57

some of those GARDA stories I told you about. And

22:00

my prediction is that a drought will

22:02

not do the next thirteen months as

22:04

commissioner and it'll be more collateral damage

22:06

on. As. Did I tell

22:08

you about the planning So member last

22:11

week I entertain jets are allowed the

22:13

book you know who owns Ireland a

22:15

lowly own heart attacks you to set

22:17

aside as as fascinating as property analysis

22:19

of months. But I'll have to tell

22:21

you because after after us like soaps

22:23

next Thursday I'm doing this infrastructures homeless

22:25

and so I do soon cause was

22:27

and I was speaking at length terrorists,

22:29

water and air good know these good

22:31

people and so I told you about

22:33

the Pines, put in a hundred million

22:35

into town lists and air apparently the.

22:37

Lesser between on board plunge all us

22:39

and he p a dead did they

22:41

didn't ask and of questions on the

22:43

whole things outside zone the did the

22:45

religious heritage was was was these two

22:48

That's so what's talk to about at

22:50

this one point seven million people living

22:52

in the Gray suit up the nearest

22:54

and you know fast these people uranus

22:56

and desiccates every day and so therefore

22:58

we have to have waste water and

23:00

sewage possesses and we're totally dependent on

23:02

rings and at the moment and actually

23:04

the capacity of rings and has provided

23:06

thirty percent more. Than they expected. Suppose

23:08

you need reduce your sentence on? yeah

23:11

exactly. So they have an order to

23:13

have a ruse of source that law

23:15

feed into contracts and and and this

23:17

is and eight your side and you

23:19

could not make this up So nuts

23:21

in the book. I've obsession of August

23:24

five hundred times. this was the slope.

23:26

I will tell you my story as

23:28

a first expressed about what happened was

23:30

after this suggests add that they had

23:32

costs consents they had costs. add the

23:35

various permissions and from the Custom House

23:37

and local. objectors went to a high

23:39

court for a judicial review and the

23:41

good justices decided that in the correspondence

23:43

between the a p a and of

23:45

on bullpen all us that they should

23:48

have more rigorously asked about one particular

23:50

topic that they didn't see wasn't desks

23:52

on bob than all of the pier

23:54

didn't approve us so what happened was

23:56

the court said you may go back

23:58

and and and and start again

24:01

and remitted it back to the point

24:03

where this correspondence had to commence again.

24:05

And would you believe it, they did

24:07

all that and they got that sorted

24:10

out and what happened? The time had

24:12

run out for their permission with Borchanola

24:14

and they had to start the whole

24:16

process all over again. So here the

24:19

good people of Dublin are faced with

24:21

the situation that the planning system has

24:23

become so Byzantine, dysfunctional and everything else

24:25

through judicial reviews that it just is

24:27

incomprehensible and we're going to wake up

24:30

one morning and there'll be nowhere for the poo

24:32

to go. And the judges will find they're not

24:34

able to search their toilet. Well

24:37

it couldn't happen to nicer people. So like just go,

24:39

don't tell

24:41

me why I should not be going insane about this

24:43

kind of stuff. Who

24:45

said you shouldn't be saying anything about

24:47

this type of stuff? No, no, no,

24:50

but I'm really saying it just is

24:52

like there has to be some sense

24:54

of political and public will for things

24:56

that are absolute national priority. You know,

24:58

building a housing scheme in a particular

25:00

area may not be a national priority

25:03

but providing wastewater treatment in Dublin and

25:05

the Greater Dublin area is an absolute

25:07

national priority. Flexibility is

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25:39

I'm Ryan Reynolds Recently I s Mint

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per month. So, returns at mintmobile.com. Okay,

26:11

something else I want to switch to.

26:13

And the Stardust

26:15

inquest, and we

26:17

had the ruling of unlawful

26:20

killing in relation to that,

26:22

and the 48 people who

26:24

died in absolute scandalous

26:26

situation back in 1981. And

26:29

even more scandalous that the families have

26:31

had to wait 43 years for that

26:33

finding of an unlawful killing to be

26:36

made, and confirmation brought up

26:38

about fire eggs that's been chained and

26:40

all the rest of it. And absolutely

26:42

appalling. And an apology made by Simon

26:45

Harris, as Taoiseach on behalf of

26:47

the state in the Dail this week, which judging

26:49

by members of the families who I've

26:52

spoken to since, that they appreciated, felt

26:54

it was sincere, and the rest of

26:56

it. They're still very critical of some

26:59

local politicians in particular for their failure

27:01

to advance this over the years, in

27:03

particular to Sean Haughey and Richard Bruton,

27:05

as long standing TDs, so they feel

27:08

did less than enough, shall we

27:10

say, to actually help them along the way.

27:12

But the reason I bring that up is

27:14

because there was a short, well,

27:17

it wasn't an apology. There was

27:19

a very carefully crafted statement by

27:22

Stephen Donnelly yesterday, in relation

27:24

to the Iffy Johnson inquest, which is what I

27:26

want to talk about now. Because

27:29

we have this situation whereby, this is one of

27:31

the most shocking, terrible stories, I think, for any

27:34

parent to actually imagine

27:36

this happening to their child, that

27:39

you would have a GP

27:41

saying, ''We think your daughter has sepsis.''

27:44

Get her immediately to an emergency department.

27:47

She's brought to the emergency department.

27:49

She's made way to be triaged.

27:52

When she is triaged, there's a further 15-hour

27:54

wait before she

27:56

gets seen by a doctor. And...

28:00

there is a delay in giving her the

28:02

antibiotics, which most

28:04

probably would have saved her, that this is

28:06

a totally unnecessary loss of life.

28:09

And we've had over the last

28:11

week at the inquest in Kilmalloch

28:14

details of an

28:16

appalling mismanagement of the situation

28:18

at University Hospital Limerick, a

28:21

complete lack of staff, quite

28:23

cater for the numbers and whatever. So just

28:25

here's the statement that Stephen Donnelly put out.

28:27

I wish to offer

28:30

my sincere condolences to Eiffel

28:32

Johnson's family and

28:35

sister, to each of the parents and sisters

28:37

who tragically lost their daughter and sister in

28:40

University Hospital Limerick. I met with

28:42

Eiffel's parents in January, my thoughts are with them

28:44

after what must have been an immensely difficult week.

28:47

I would like to thank the coroner for all his

28:49

work this week, but I'm aware that nothing will

28:51

ever make up for the enormous loss the Johnson

28:53

family has experienced. The coroner's recommendations

28:56

will be fully considered, along

28:58

with the work of retired Chief Justice

29:00

Frank Clark, who is due to conclude

29:02

his independent investigation in the coming weeks.

29:06

Well that's carefully written statement isn't it?

29:08

Because that's not making any promises

29:11

as to actually putting proper

29:13

staffing levels in place to

29:16

cope with University Hospital Limerick, because

29:18

quite clearly with other hospitals

29:20

in the area have been downgraded. With this I

29:22

think going back, I think to the idea of

29:25

Mary Harney and about centres of excellence and the

29:27

rest of it, there's nothing excellent

29:29

about the emergency department treatment which has

29:31

been offered in University Hospital Limerick because

29:33

it wasn't just that day in 2022,

29:35

this is a story that recurs

29:39

and every day we hear from

29:41

the Irish nurses and midwives organisation

29:44

details of extraordinary numbers of people

29:46

left on trolleys, left on corridors,

29:48

not getting the treatment that they

29:51

need to try and save

29:53

their lives. So I've had

29:55

some dealings with University Hospital

29:57

Limerick and the Management Collective.

30:00

and so on. And the

30:02

truth of this story and in

30:04

terms of Stephen Donnelly, that

30:07

Ennis's emergency, excellent emergency department

30:10

was closed in April 2009.

30:14

Around the same time, Nina ED

30:17

was closed and

30:20

St. John's Hospital in Limerick was

30:22

also no longer taking patients in

30:24

that way. And it's true

30:26

to say if you speak to the cohort

30:29

and the kind of senior A&E

30:31

people across the country, they actually

30:34

believe at a trauma level

30:36

there should only be one. You know, if

30:38

you get seriously ill you should be taken

30:40

by helicopter to this, you know, really tertiary

30:42

place. And I remember before someone

30:45

said to me, Ivan, if you ever have a road

30:47

accident that you're involved in, tell the ambulance

30:50

in Aclorogory when you're going to Dublin, go

30:52

into the Dall, do not stop at Loughlinstown,

30:54

go straight onto the Dall. I said many,

30:56

many times you need to go to a

30:59

hospital. It's the same way that, for example,

31:01

if you have a stroke, they

31:03

say if your family know, tell the ambulance

31:06

to go to Beaumont in

31:08

Dublin rather than going to the Dublin,

31:10

because that's where the specialist facilities and

31:12

your best chance of recovery is. So

31:14

I fully understand the rationale behind the

31:17

closure of Ennis and the other downgrading

31:19

of the other facilities, but that requires

31:21

that you have sufficient capacity in Limerick

31:24

and sufficient staff to operate the capacity.

31:26

So that's absolutely right. And what actually

31:28

happened was they put the cart before

31:30

the horse here and they subsequently agreed

31:33

that they needed to sort of treble

31:36

the different nurses and consultants

31:38

and all of that and they have

31:40

nearly completed one 96 bed

31:42

unit and another 96 bed unit.

31:45

So effectively 200 beds, and

31:48

a huge mistake was made in

31:50

prematurely taking the people of Clare

31:52

and the people at Tipperary and

31:55

funneling them in the most, can

31:58

we say, urgent sickness circumstances. into

32:00

that and I honestly believe that the

32:03

staff and so on were

32:05

to some extent the fall guys

32:07

for desperately bad planning and mismanagement of

32:09

the issue and that goes all the

32:11

way to the top and goes back

32:14

nearly 15 years. How quickly

32:16

can that be actually solved because one of the

32:18

issues as well is is that we

32:20

have a rapidly growing population. We

32:23

need all of these additional beds and

32:25

you know this is one of the

32:27

criticisms I think that should be made

32:29

of government in over the last decades

32:31

so successive governments and also a lot

32:33

about plans and promises for doing things

32:35

and for increasing capacity and a failure

32:38

to deliver. Sometimes it comes back to

32:40

the planning issues that you've mentioned for

32:42

things like the wastewater facility and stuff

32:44

but a lot of the time you

32:46

know we're told in prisons

32:48

they came up this week right let's go back to

32:50

Helen Macintee. You always wanted another prison gone yeah. Well

32:52

yeah I mean again they're now reconsidering Thornton

32:54

Hall 20 years on. I've

32:56

said it on this podcast in recent weeks. An

32:59

easy political win for the government would be

33:01

to turn around and say we know of

33:03

massive overcrowding in our prisons. This came up

33:05

with the prison officers conference this week and

33:08

that there are and I know there

33:10

are people who will not be sympathetic to

33:12

the idea of people sleeping on mattresses and

33:14

floors and bunk beds and cells and all

33:16

the rest of it but you know if

33:18

you want to rehabilitate people who go into

33:20

prison you have to put the circumstances in

33:22

place and the numbers of assaults and violent

33:24

incidents has rocketed because we simply do not

33:26

have enough prison spaces. There has been a

33:28

piecemeal approach to adding at the various other

33:31

house at various prisons which needs to be

33:33

done but on top of that go ahead

33:35

and build Thornton Hall. The political win in

33:37

that as well if they were to break

33:39

ground even if it's not obviously going to be

33:41

ready in advance of the next general election but if

33:43

the foundations are in and the buildings starting to go

33:45

up you'd be able to point to the government to

33:47

point to that they were doing something in relation to

33:49

crime and it's the same with hospitals you

33:52

know there's been talk of a

33:54

new elective hospital in Cork It's

33:58

years behind schedule this one. Talk. For

34:00

toppling years and schedule is all talk

34:02

talk talk will commit money and nothing

34:04

gets done well. I can tell you

34:06

my good friends and deeper. After.

34:09

What up with a mess was so

34:11

as hospital they won't be head of

34:13

the queue to finance and new hospital

34:15

am after they overrun and so on

34:17

Can I can I just love with

34:19

an ironic like that which is it of

34:21

and start subsidy right? The families were

34:23

treated and mysteries. It's how many times

34:25

were inquiries rejected and so on? A

34:27

just as a completely it as a

34:29

side. So this was in January Two

34:31

in Nineteen Eighty One and was expected

34:33

to see the full are-was on this

34:35

weekend of the fire Cyber years you've ever.

34:37

Yes Yes yes zodiac. Is about it

34:39

I suppose. Yeah, so was expected. That.

34:42

Whole he would announce the journalists and that

34:44

day and because of the scientists flaps he

34:46

put it back to announcement in in May

34:48

June and would you believe as I wouldn't

34:51

have been to Kansas in the Ac one

34:53

elections at because the convention where been but

34:55

best to is an existing former senator would

34:57

have got the nominations and I only xd

34:59

got going to in the month of February

35:01

and March so as an ill when one

35:04

is what what I have to say it's

35:06

it's the next phase after the apologies whether

35:08

there will be a redress game of whether

35:10

there will be criminal proceedings. I think

35:12

that will bring real justice to the be

35:14

Both you know irreparably was is everyone preempts

35:17

awesomely to go garden to hire a size

35:19

that commissioner has ordered an investigation of the

35:21

files on the back of the findings of

35:23

the inquest. As a hardworking journalists we're at

35:25

in the Rds last weekend for the Greens

35:28

annual conference. I wasn't thrice. Well let's talk

35:30

about it because we've we will use and

35:32

no no no no snow So we would

35:34

you be welcomed No I don't attend any

35:36

conference because I've no need to us but

35:39

the but the point is this. thus I

35:41

do observed these things so. We've taken

35:43

a deep dive into Vienna Falls and

35:45

a gale and all the different parties,

35:47

but I don't think we've given a

35:49

jew attention to what are the prospects

35:51

of the green party it's going forward.

35:53

So we well documented the ministerial performance

35:55

of their from Pence Same and Ryan

35:57

and. To. be a portfolio

36:00

not able to deal with any of

36:02

it. Actually, when you look at the

36:04

three cabinet ministers, they have

36:07

something like 17 departments between

36:09

them because of multiple portfolios that

36:11

Eamonn Ryan, Catherine Martin and Roger

36:13

Goh Gorman have. And

36:15

apparently the Finneganale ministers are only six

36:18

between them. So maybe

36:20

you say bigger departments, but if you're

36:22

trying to deal with things like, in

36:25

Eamonn Ryan's case, transport and environment, and

36:27

I can't even remember the list of stuff,

36:29

but they're all separate departments that he's also...

36:32

So the point is this, one of his

36:34

departments is DEC, Department of Energy and Climate

36:36

Change. Where he has failed is to get,

36:38

and as a party leader this is particularly

36:40

indigible, a whole of government approach.

36:42

So in other words, you would think that

36:44

the adherence to the climate action

36:47

plans would be put in the planning bill. You

36:49

would think it would be put in the 31 county development bill.

36:52

He has totally failed. He's all

36:54

these targets for renewable electricity,

36:56

for public transport, for retrofishing, for

36:59

EVs and so on. And

37:01

none of them are going to be met by 2030. And

37:03

so therefore, I think history is not going

37:06

to be kind to him. That one of

37:08

the things you need in government is follow through, to

37:10

actually say, this is what we're going to do, but

37:12

then to be on the hot breath at the back

37:14

of the neck every month on that. And he's

37:16

failed to do that. He's more gone for the grandiose

37:19

big picture situation and making

37:21

these announcements. But it's siloed

37:23

thinking that hasn't penetrated the

37:25

customers. But the interesting thing is if you look at the 12

37:28

green TDs, just to go into

37:30

election sort of punditry territory, they

37:33

are very much a Dublin-centric party. Eight of

37:35

their 12 TDs are from Dublin. And so

37:38

therefore, when you see the polls for, you

37:40

know, 3%, 5%, what is their rating in

37:44

Dublin? Because the rest of

37:46

their seats are all city seats. And

37:48

it is really oscillated between 3% and 10%. Now

37:51

there is a situation whereby they would all lose

37:53

their seats if it was on 3%. So it's

37:56

10% where they all keep their seats? Well

37:58

put it like this, they certainly would. five of them

38:00

I would think. But the other thing that

38:02

is one of the biggest

38:05

drivers of this zeitgeist for the independence

38:07

is the reaction to

38:10

their anti-car agenda and their anti-agriculture

38:12

agenda. They are the easy whipping boys

38:15

for the independence and the rest of

38:17

it. I suppose most political

38:19

parties in some respects resemble

38:21

cults. And if you have,

38:23

for example, Sinn Féin have

38:25

the belief in 32 County Ireland,

38:28

totally understandable, respectable belief. People

38:30

for profit are very much

38:33

bought into this whole thing.

38:35

Capitalism is evil and we

38:37

must fight it down. The

38:39

Greens, they're very cultish in

38:41

the way that they believe that

38:44

environment is the predominant thing

38:46

that dictates where politics should

38:49

go. From what I saw of

38:52

last weekend's party conference for

38:54

the Greens, was there an element of

38:56

that because they're so bought into the

38:58

cult that they're a little bit delusional

39:00

about their electoral prospects that they think

39:03

that because they're doing the right thing

39:05

by the world that everybody else is

39:07

coming to understand them? Well

39:09

I actually thought that was the most, I

39:11

listened to Ryan's piece and so on, and

39:14

I thought that was the most commendable thing. Like

39:16

I have a rule in politics which is if

39:18

you don't like this set of principles I'm telling

39:21

you, I'll give you another set of principles. In

39:23

other words, whatever the public want, the public gets

39:25

and you get both. You're a

39:27

Marxist. A growth of Marxists. But the Greens have

39:29

actually said, you know, this is what we're going

39:32

to live or die by and they go through

39:34

this cycle. You remember with Roger the Rabbit in

39:36

South Dublin where they go from... Roger

39:38

Garland. Roger Garland, yeah, from 12 seats

39:41

to one seat back to 12 seats.

39:43

And that cycle I think is set to

39:45

continue. But I think it is nice that

39:48

they were basically saying, and I think it's

39:50

sorry, applaudable, that

39:53

you may disown us, you may disagree

39:55

with this, you maybe don't like the

39:57

consequences of what we're doing in terms

40:00

of emissions and all the impact it has on your

40:02

home, on your life, on

40:04

your business. But you know what? We believe

40:06

it's the right thing and we're sticking to

40:08

it because my philosophy is exactly the opposite.

40:10

And I think that's kind of commendable. I

40:12

think actually the European and local elections may

40:14

be very indicative of where they're going to

40:17

stand for the general elections, perhaps more so

40:19

than for any other party. Because if you

40:21

remember back to the last local elections, the

40:23

likes of Hazel Chu got an enormous vote

40:25

on her board for Dublin City Council. How

40:27

well will she do now when it comes

40:29

to the local elections? She's kind of

40:31

fell out with them. You know, she's

40:33

had her problems. She's still very much

40:35

in the green. Yeah. And

40:37

we'll see because she's in Eamonn Ryan's

40:39

constituency. So we'll see how well she

40:41

does in the local elections as a

40:43

potential bellwether for how well he will

40:45

do in the general election. We'll put

40:47

it like this. I actually have been

40:49

researching Grace O'Sullivan because

40:51

I would have

40:54

her. She's from Waterford. She'd be first on the

40:56

list to say on a bad day for the

40:58

green, she's going to go. But a

41:01

number of people in Fianna Fáil and

41:03

Fianna Gélis said to me, don't underestimate

41:05

Grace O'Sullivan that she's quite savvy. She's

41:07

got a track record. She's built her

41:09

own network and that she could survive

41:11

a tide against the green party. And

41:14

then the Ciarán process or other NDP in Dublin.

41:16

Yeah, Dublin is quite active. Like I actually was

41:18

at a conference where he presented on the new

41:20

performance of energy directive on buildings. And

41:23

my God, I told him he was only

41:25

15 minutes. He was absolutely passionate about it

41:27

and had negotiated nearly every paragraph of it.

41:30

I put it like this. He was a former

41:32

minister. He was a TD. He had a high

41:34

profile. I

41:36

actually think he has a chance of

41:38

getting a seat. Okay. There's got to

41:40

be an enormous amount of high profile

41:42

people contesting the seats in each constituency.

41:44

We're getting more and more people coming

41:46

forward. More of what we might call

41:48

loosely celebrity candidates. I mean, like we've

41:51

now got Niall Boylan, for example, joining

41:53

in. Well, I wouldn't be too derisory

41:55

about Niall Boylan. Who said I was...

41:57

Well, just your tone sounded a little

41:59

bit... I was insinuating

42:01

that you were urinating

42:04

on him there. But the point about it is

42:06

this, and I remember when he appeared

42:08

regularly on the Tonight Show. I

42:12

actually think he was in favour of Brexit. I

42:14

could be wrong about that, but he always took

42:16

contrarian views on everything. For the sake of it.

42:19

That's what a shock joke does, because I know.

42:21

He's a shock joke. He is a shock joke.

42:23

He is a shock joke. And look, the

42:26

way to dismiss him is to say, this election

42:28

is about solutions, not sound bites but I

42:31

would say that in

42:34

terms, I always admire opportunism.

42:36

As opportunism goes, this

42:38

is class A. Well

42:41

hang on, he's had to give up his

42:43

radio show, which would suggest that

42:45

if he doesn't be... There is more

42:47

to life than being a DJ. I

42:51

would say he would say he's not a DJ.

42:53

So he loses that income if he

42:55

doesn't get elected as an MEP. Although

42:58

I suspect what he'd probably be quite confident

43:00

is that a few months down the line

43:02

he'd be reinstated to his job in the

43:04

radio station. The point

43:06

about it is this. He

43:08

will certainly be a disruptor

43:11

candidate. He certainly will eat,

43:13

I think, that

43:15

right wing vote in a way that really

43:17

strong right wing

43:19

candidates won't. I think he

43:21

could hit Sinn Fein hard. I think he'd

43:23

be very good on sound bites. He'd be

43:25

pugnacious. He'd be very good on social media

43:28

and to X and Twitter and all of

43:30

that. I actually would

43:33

not be dismissing the prospects he could get elected.

43:35

I didn't dismiss the prospects that he might get

43:37

elected. But you think the polls. Whether

43:39

he should be elected is another issue. But

43:41

I wonder would there be confusion caused as

43:43

well? Because he'd be one of two... Lynne,

43:45

Lynne, I did think that too. And Lynne

43:47

actually very interested in... I would be predicting

43:49

she'll top the polls. Well I think so.

43:52

Lynne Baughton was a very impressive MEP when

43:55

she was in there previously. And

43:57

she comes across as a very likable type

43:59

of amenable. She's not a hectoring person.

44:01

Here's the interesting thing. I thought she was very

44:03

unfortunate to lose her seat the last time around,

44:05

and I think it came as a considerable shock

44:07

to her. But she has

44:09

very strong environmental issues. In many respects,

44:11

she's very close to the Green Party

44:14

and a lot of her thinking. But

44:16

she was at a conference this week,

44:18

and she did make comments about how

44:21

environmental issues didn't matter to a lot of

44:23

Sinn Fein voters, that they were more interested

44:26

in Brent Butter issues. When

44:28

you read past the headline, a lot of what she

44:30

said actually made an awful lot of sense. But

44:32

it did again come across as yet another

44:34

area where Sinn Fein are stepping back from

44:37

the position that they had taken and say,

44:39

well, the environment is no longer as important

44:41

to us because they're afraid perhaps of been

44:43

seen. I told you there's only one thing

44:45

they care about, a border pole within five

44:47

years. Absolutely. No, I agree with that. And

44:50

sustainability all can be negotiated in a way.

44:52

Everything that they've taken a strong position

44:54

on in recent years, to their credit,

44:56

in my view, right? Things like that.

44:58

They have been very strongly anti-racist. And

45:01

you can see lots of

45:03

times when they've been out protesting

45:05

on behalf of refugees, they

45:08

had took a position on the hate crime

45:10

bill, which they have now done a complete

45:12

U-turn on, despite the fact that they were

45:14

saying only a year ago how important it

45:16

was to get this through the door. And

45:19

now, as I said earlier, they've gone to this open

45:21

borders position, which closely resembles Tory

45:24

speaking. So it does all come

45:26

to that point. They will do

45:28

whatever has to be done to

45:30

get as many votes as possible to get into

45:32

government, to get to that one objective, which is

45:34

the border pole, despite the fact that many people

45:37

who will vote for them will be doing so

45:39

on the basis that they will be hopeful that

45:41

they can sort out housing or sort out health.

45:43

Those are all secondary to that bigger picture. So

45:46

even the survival of the world

45:48

is less important than a United

45:51

Ireland. So

45:53

as well as Niall Boyden, who I

45:55

think can get a

45:57

protest vote and should not be underestimated.

46:00

in terms of working class areas and

46:02

the kind of mood of the moment

46:05

of sort of visceral toxic feelings about establishment

46:07

politicians. The other person who I think is

46:09

done in prospects no harm is certainly sat

46:11

in there, Michael Meiklemeyer himself in care. But

46:13

is there not going to be a reaction

46:15

to the idea of these people wanting to

46:17

jump out of the door to go into

46:19

the European Parliament? No

46:22

the experience is like if you go back to 1985

46:24

with the PDs, the day the PDs formally launched,

46:28

the next poll had them at 34%. Six

46:30

months later they were down to 15%. Now

46:32

that was at a time when people

46:35

had considered political opinions. Now people have

46:37

political opinions that have a shelf life

46:39

equivalent to a goldfish. Just

46:42

like yourself. No, no, no. I have my principles

46:44

and if you don't like them I have other

46:46

principles. I'm talking

46:48

about winning. What

46:52

I'm saying there is that someone

46:54

like Michael Meiklemeyer could

46:57

put aside the best laid plans of all

46:59

the parties and strategies by actually timing it

47:02

late to enter the field. That you have

47:04

more impact at that stage. Okay, well we

47:06

leave it there. Those by-elections will never be

47:08

held if those TDs make it. Because

47:11

we now have farmed up it will definitely be the

47:13

15th of November. Oh God you're back because you listened

47:15

to me last week and I told you it couldn't

47:17

be the 8th of November because of the rugby international.

47:19

I'm actually going back to your source of vision. The

47:22

budget will be the 2nd of October. The door will

47:24

be... No, 7th of October. No,

47:26

no, it's already down for

47:28

the 7th but they're going to be doing it a

47:30

week earlier on Wednesday the 2nd and the door will be

47:32

dissolved no later than the 22nd of October. So

47:36

I don't know how that affects the most

47:38

important issue at the time, which is your

47:40

goddamn visit to Washington. I'll be

47:42

there. I can

47:44

take three days in New York. There's no point

47:46

in going to Washington to cover the general arts

47:48

and president. I'll take your word first. Another junket

47:51

from Matt Cooper. Ah no, no, no, it's all

47:53

work, I've been. It's all work. And

47:55

that is the last of what we're going to talk about

47:57

today on Path to the Part. Don't forget to get in

47:59

touch. which are emails. We are

48:02

monitoring them, we're reading them, they're really

48:04

interesting. We will do another constituency clinic

48:06

special when we will do another one.

48:08

So the email address is mail at

48:11

pathtopowerpodcast.com. So that's mail at pathtopowerpodcast.com.

48:13

Don't forget please to recommend us

48:16

to a friend. We can be

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48:20

even YouTube. You don't have to

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48:30

of ways to get us and please subscribe. It

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doesn't cost you anything to subscribe and recommend to

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a friend. And then we'll be back again next

48:37

week. So from me, Matt Cooper and from me,

48:39

Ivan Yates. Thank you for joining us. Have

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