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any bank, they are City. Learn

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more. It's three.com/we Are City. Stories.

0:18

Are always announcing themselves to everyone

0:20

I bet. and every single person

0:22

who is listening to this probably

0:24

had fifteen ideas for a novel

0:27

today is. So it's not an

0:29

issue of having ideas, but it

0:31

is an issue of giving those

0:33

ideas enough time in the sub

0:35

conscious that they begin to take

0:37

on density and weights and begin

0:39

to attract other ideas. And they

0:41

sort of fooled themselves together in

0:43

the back of the mind into

0:45

something that becomes a story and

0:47

then having the. Patience. To

0:49

wait until that story is full enough

0:51

to attempt to put on the page.

0:55

Ever. Since her third novel, Fates and

0:57

Furious became a breakout hit in

0:59

Two Thousand and Fifteen, Lauren Graph

1:01

has emerged as a singular voice

1:03

and American fiction. She's a three

1:05

time National Book Award finalist, has

1:07

won the Story Prize, and all

1:10

five of her novels have been

1:12

New York Times bestsellers. As one

1:14

of the great novelist of the

1:16

Twenty First Century, it's no surprise

1:18

that Lauren Graph is also one

1:20

of our twenty Twenty four time

1:22

One Hundred Honorees cross to most

1:24

recent novels Matrix, and. The vaster

1:26

wilds explore themes of nature,

1:28

spirituality, and utopian communities taken

1:30

together. These works amount to

1:32

a radical reexamination of how

1:34

humans adapt to a rapidly

1:36

changing natural world. Graphs ability

1:39

to ask enormous spiritual questions

1:41

while remaining grounded in specific

1:43

characters makes her a unique

1:45

voice in contemporary American fiction.

1:47

Fates and Furious is one

1:49

of my all time favorite

1:51

novels, and Matrix is one

1:53

of the most compelling books.

1:55

I've read in years, which is why

1:57

I was so excited to have her

1:59

the gas on our show this week

2:01

during our. Conversation Coffin I talked about

2:04

how her athleticism and forms her work,

2:06

the specifics of her child care arrangement

2:08

that allow her to get her writing

2:10

done, and why time is the secret.

2:12

Currency of Art. I'm Charlotte

2:14

Alter senior Correspondent for. Time.

2:17

And this is person of the week. So

2:25

and Sanders says we're timing, how's

2:27

that? You were both of French

2:29

or English major but also a

2:31

college athlete and her sister is

2:34

an Olympic. Athletes are clearly runs

2:36

in the family. How to incorporate

2:38

this athleticism them into your work?

2:42

Oh what? So I think the

2:44

life of the body is just

2:46

as important to art as the

2:48

life of the mind. Soon and

2:50

so, I pay very intense attention

2:52

to the body on a daily

2:55

basis. Not because. In.

2:57

I'm worried about weed or whatever. It's

2:59

because. It's. The way

3:01

that I regulate my own emotions.

3:03

Man, it's the way that a

3:06

pseudo retain focus and attention. And

3:08

the world is the way that

3:10

I remember the exquisite beauty of

3:12

the world's It's the quality of

3:14

noticing that happens when you let

3:17

your mind stop any let the

3:19

body take over and that's really,

3:21

really important. The other thing too

3:23

is honestly, I'm really grateful to

3:25

Title Nine, and because I think

3:28

my generation and your generation of

3:30

women's when. We were given

3:32

the opportunity to to play

3:34

sports as sports became a

3:36

way of. understanding.

3:38

The world at knowing that everything

3:40

is practice. I mean, once in

3:42

a while you'll be asked to

3:44

compete, but it's really not the

3:46

competition that really matters is said

3:48

that daily slow incremental growth, and

3:50

that is directly applicable to. Any

3:52

kind of artwork is enough. You're not. doing

3:55

it for the end products you're

3:57

doing it for the every day

4:00

engagements and the hard struggle to understand

4:02

what it is that you want to

4:04

do and to get to the other

4:06

side. So I genuinely think that sports

4:09

are magnificent, not for the

4:11

performance, but for what they give you in

4:13

the training and the day to day. Interesting.

4:16

So it sounds like what you're saying is

4:18

that training as an athlete has some overlap

4:20

with the writing process of just kind of

4:22

like getting up and practicing and doing it.

4:24

Yeah, right. Not every day is going to

4:26

be good, right? Yeah. Most days are actually

4:29

going to be pretty painful and you'll

4:31

end up crying once in a while. But it

4:34

feels good to feel yourself growing

4:36

and getting more competent and getting

4:38

stronger. And that can be the

4:40

same in the work as it

4:43

is in the body. Yeah. So

4:46

your career really took off with

4:48

Fates and Furies, which I absolutely

4:50

loved and couldn't put down. It

4:53

was a New York Times bestseller and your

4:55

first of three finalists for the National

4:58

Book Award. What do you

5:00

think worked about this novel? Why do you

5:02

think it resonated so much with readers? I

5:05

just reread that book for the first time in

5:08

eight years and there's a lot there

5:11

that I really love, right? And

5:13

there's a lot there that I would do

5:15

differently. I'm not sure what

5:17

happens with that book. I feel very

5:19

grateful that it did find the readers

5:21

that it found and continues to find

5:23

actually. I think that a

5:25

lot of it was written out of rage,

5:28

especially feminine rage. I think people are

5:30

now writing a lot more about female

5:33

rage in fiction, which I'm glad to

5:35

see. And it has occurred

5:37

in the past. It just hit its moment.

5:40

You never know when a book comes into

5:42

the world how it's going to be received,

5:44

right? You just sort of put it out

5:46

there and sometimes it just sort of

5:48

dissipates into the ether and sometimes it

5:50

catches. Who knows the

5:53

magic of that, but it is

5:55

magical when it happens for sure.

5:57

And so, you know,

6:00

President Obama called Fates and Furies his favorite

6:02

book of the year that year. And

6:05

I understand you have a letter that

6:07

he wrote you. So what did he

6:09

say when he wrote you about this

6:11

novel? Yeah, he wrote me

6:13

this beautiful handwritten letter. And

6:16

he just told me why he liked the book

6:18

and why he responded to it. And

6:20

I have to say that was probably the most

6:23

moving moments of my writerly life

6:25

up to that point. Just

6:29

it's a sitting president one to

6:31

a person as intelligent

6:33

and sensitive as Barack Obama. But

6:35

also it's always

6:39

beautiful to find your reader, right? It's

6:41

always like extraordinary, no matter who the

6:43

reader is, even if he's not a

6:45

president, right? To have someone actually speak

6:47

back into you and say, I get

6:50

you, right? I get what you were trying

6:52

to do. And I appreciate it. That's just

6:54

it. It can light you up for for

6:57

a year at a time. Yeah. And

6:59

so this novel is about marriage.

7:02

And that brings me to the next thing

7:04

I wanted to ask you about, which is

7:06

your own marriage? Because I understand you and

7:08

your husband have developed this very

7:10

unique partnership that supports the

7:13

writing that you need to do. So

7:15

can you tell me a little bit

7:17

about how your own marriage supports

7:20

your literary career? Absolutely.

7:22

Yeah. So I got extraordinarily lucky when

7:25

I found Clay in college. I didn't

7:27

know at the time that

7:29

he was the magnificent, generous Buddha-like

7:31

person that he is. But he

7:33

is. We

7:35

have developed together a way to

7:38

sort of allow the writing to

7:40

be almost another human in the

7:42

family. And one

7:45

of the things that we figured out early

7:47

on before the children came, when suddenly we

7:51

were staring down the barrel of no

7:53

more time. So time

7:55

is the secret currency

7:58

of art. Added to

8:00

the time that you need

8:02

to just stare at a

8:05

wall is so vast that

8:07

anyone giving you that best

8:09

a true boon read we

8:11

one answered. To. Sit down

8:13

and make a contract. I wanted

8:15

to make eye contact an actual

8:17

physical piece of paper that we

8:19

wrote down all of the things

8:21

bad. Oh we were sort of

8:23

separating into or domestic place so

8:25

that we could protect this time

8:27

around. my vocation of writing right?

8:29

So yeah we have this beautiful

8:31

contacted mean said. I never

8:33

have to get up in the morning

8:35

with the children I never have other

8:38

than when they they were physically attached

8:40

to me and a zone. take them

8:42

to school age, don't make them breakfasts,

8:44

I don't see them in the morning

8:46

and there's no humans for me in

8:49

the morning other than you know the

8:51

humans in the books and that has

8:53

become a very beautiful silence space. For

8:55

the work to get done. Can

8:58

you tell me what else is in this contract? Yeah.

9:01

So one of the things was he

9:03

made me live in Florida with a

9:05

didn't let at slip as. I

9:08

was able to negotiate am I could

9:10

go to writers Connie for a month

9:13

as I really wanted to a third.

9:15

You know go do readings the all

9:17

of has the country are in other

9:19

countries they want to see. does the

9:22

taxes think. I'm

9:24

nuts and I couldn't do it. I'm

9:26

actually competent as a human to florence

9:28

lawyer or a meditative me with the.

9:30

Trash. I just don't

9:32

want him. To sell

9:35

one side by? I don't see.

9:37

Yeah, Yes, exactly. And sometimes we

9:39

have to go back and look

9:41

at it again and revise and

9:43

say, lately, he's been taking on

9:45

so much so maybe I need

9:47

to take on more. That's easily

9:49

the way ago. Yeah, I hurried.

9:51

yeah. But I I really do

9:54

want to drill into this idea

9:56

of time as kind of that

9:58

currency of artistic work, because. I

10:00

know so many people,

10:03

particularly mothers, who

10:05

have a really hard time carving

10:08

out that time. Can you

10:10

tell us a little bit about the process

10:12

over the course of becoming a parent in

10:14

which you realized that you

10:17

needed this time, you needed it in this way,

10:19

and here were the ways

10:21

you were going to get that time? Yeah,

10:24

I mean, before the boys came, I

10:26

would spend 12 hours

10:28

a day alone in my room working,

10:31

either reading or writing, both of which were

10:34

work, and I knew that that wasn't going

10:36

to happen anymore, so that's why the contract

10:38

happened. I also have to say, you know,

10:40

I have to acknowledge the privilege too, to

10:42

be honest. I mean, this is a very

10:44

real thing. I

10:47

don't have to have another job

10:49

other than writing, and I haven't

10:51

since my first book advance, right?

10:54

So as soon as that happened, you

10:57

know, I was able to pay for childcare

10:59

as well, so there's a very real element

11:01

of privilege here that I do not want

11:03

to skate over whatsoever, because it

11:05

doesn't happen for everyone, and it's not

11:07

fair that it doesn't happen. I wish

11:09

that we could give it to all

11:11

writers. So,

11:14

you know, the other thing too is I do

11:18

allow the boys to sort

11:21

of slide back into my life when

11:23

they come home from school, right? They sort of

11:25

take center stage. They are the most important thing

11:28

afterwards, but there

11:30

is a kind of, I don't

11:32

know if it's meanness, but it's

11:35

a very adamantine

11:38

pushing away that happens, which

11:41

is probably not coming from

11:44

the beginning. So I'm not saying that I'm kind

11:46

or generous in a way that we expect mothers

11:48

to be kind and

11:51

generous. I'm not saying that I

11:53

regret it in any way, but it's very

11:55

hard, right? I'm

11:58

closing my door to my children when they were really little. When there

12:00

is screaming I would not go

12:02

out there. I don't let play

12:04

take ebay and he's competent. He

12:06

can do it. Yeah, they can

12:08

do ads and so at. This

12:10

is beautiful passage and Nutter Lisa

12:12

hosts book on. Her child had

12:15

a where her own mother was

12:17

a writer and she remembers sort

12:19

of being pushed away in some

12:21

ways by her mother's dedication to

12:23

her work. and it's kind of

12:25

this rigidity said of for the

12:27

rest of her life. She's trying

12:29

to overcome anything. Said I've done. That's

12:31

my boys and there's nothing that you

12:33

do as apparent that wants somehow affect

12:36

the children, right? I'm not blaming myself

12:38

for this at all, but it I

12:40

have been very, very rigid when it

12:43

comes to the ratings in a way

12:45

that I think other people are not.

12:47

So how did you do this when

12:49

you were pregnant and postpartum. Because.

12:52

Once. Your kids are like not, it's has

12:55

you anymore. It's a little bit easier to

12:57

make these kinds of arrangements, but how did

12:59

what was your writing? light? During.

13:01

The periods of. Time. When

13:04

you know, as he said, you're very

13:06

physically in tuned, the experience of your

13:08

body is very important. Year works. What

13:10

was pregnancy and post partum like in

13:12

that context? Owes her

13:15

Brenda S. I'm I didn't write anything

13:17

good for a year. I just sat

13:19

there. may I sat there with my

13:21

books sometimes crying. I don't know why

13:24

did that to myself other than the

13:26

fact that a for my own self

13:28

I had this maintain that space me

13:31

if the writing. When it's succumb to me

13:33

and it didn't that that's and there was

13:35

a very fellow period you know of Inslee

13:37

with start to read. And that reading sort of

13:39

a said the work and Sloan. I'm

13:42

so that The truth is, there's

13:44

no easy way rate. There's no

13:46

easy way to be appearance and

13:48

a writer, period. But especially when

13:51

they're attached to you. Especially when.

13:53

You're actually literally attach them.

13:56

so it's ah it's

13:59

hard But I guess one of

14:01

the things that I have always

14:03

felt is that my

14:05

work is my first child, right? And

14:08

that I never want to starve one child to

14:10

feed another. So

14:12

I know that the boys are going to

14:15

get all the love, right? Plenty of love.

14:17

But I need my first more

14:20

abstract, much more complicated child to

14:22

also have enough love. When

14:26

we come back, Lauren Groff talks about

14:28

climate change, why she prefers to write

14:31

her book drafts by hand, and the

14:33

future of publishing. More in a minute.

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15:09

Citi. So

15:23

I want to turn to your two most

15:26

recent novels, including Matrix from 2021 and The

15:29

Vaster Wilds, which came out in 2023. So

15:33

these are both works of historical

15:35

fiction. Can you tell us about

15:37

your process for writing historical fiction?

15:40

How do you decide on

15:42

the time period and the events that

15:45

you're going to depict? And

15:48

specifically about Matrix, I

15:50

was frankly surprised. No

15:53

offense. I Was surprised that I was

15:55

so compelled by it because it is

15:57

a novel about an obscure 12th century

15:59

nun. I indicated loosely

16:01

based asa Marie de France. Of

16:04

whom very little is known about her

16:07

real life. So why did you decide

16:09

to write a novel about a twelfth

16:11

century nun who. Very. Few

16:13

people know anything about. In

16:16

college I fell in love with Money

16:18

To Fall speak as either a took

16:21

a course on and off on says

16:23

are old friends or any was really

16:25

wonderful age. Just met her and I

16:27

loved her and I just have always

16:30

loved this is this specter of an

16:32

unknown money to finance about whom we

16:34

know that she was named moran seized

16:37

from France and maybe it up as

16:39

who knows and. So. Aids

16:41

always been in my mind's you're right about

16:43

her at but it wasn't until I heard

16:45

a friend of mine give a lecture she

16:48

of his lecture on medieval nuns and as

16:50

it is not audience actually was given the

16:52

gift of Matrix I didn't like the first

16:54

time ever and probably the last that a

16:56

book instead of fallen hole in my head

16:59

but yeah was predicated on may deep love

17:01

of and knowledge of was it a false

17:03

in the Middle ages as when it's your

17:05

a the sexy bucks and lesbians I created

17:08

a when it's a write a book in

17:10

recent zero. Men actually like was seen

17:12

with clarity, others that have like

17:14

a vague sifting shadows that of

17:16

undulating a across the walls and

17:18

and I and when it you

17:20

know a lot of a lot

17:22

of have their eight a book

17:24

because it makes me happy It

17:26

makes me last and so I

17:28

just wanted to be with these

17:30

women had a just wanted to

17:32

build a utopia knowing that utopias

17:34

contained within themselves the seeds of

17:36

their own destruction as all human

17:38

endeavors do. Ah. Ends. And

17:41

I when it's imagine a

17:43

different path of female power

17:46

than the one that I

17:48

think we in the Twenty

17:50

first century's shrink medieval women

17:52

into a very slaton version

17:54

of what they could possibly

17:57

be rate. There's either said

17:59

illiterates, woman who pumps out

18:01

a lot of babies or there's Eleanor

18:03

of Aquitin who's amazing, right? She's an

18:05

amazing actual person, but those are the

18:07

two models were given for medieval women

18:10

and I just sort of wanted to

18:12

blow a little bit more air into

18:14

this depiction and have fun with it.

18:17

So the time period comes out of the

18:19

story that I want to tell, to be

18:21

perfectly honest. So I actually was writing The

18:23

Vaster Wilds before I started Matrix and

18:26

then I realized that they're really distantly

18:28

floating parts, two parts of

18:30

a triptych. But The

18:32

Vaster Wilds came out of my

18:34

desire to talk about the colonial

18:36

period, especially in the new world,

18:38

the effects of colonization, the ideas

18:41

of nature on the

18:43

human and sort of the way that religion

18:46

has taught us to see nature as

18:48

an opponent as opposed to an equal.

18:50

So in an

18:53

interview last year with Slate, you said that

18:55

you wanted these novels to quote, talk

18:57

about the urgencies of now, which

19:00

I thought was an interesting thing to

19:02

say about two novels that are set

19:04

in respectively medieval France and early

19:07

colonial America. How do

19:09

these two stories fit

19:11

into a larger point

19:13

about our contemporary world? Yeah,

19:17

I mean, there's no such thing as

19:19

an ahistorical novel. All novels are historical,

19:22

right? Every novel is a product of

19:24

the time in which it's written, even

19:26

if the writer doesn't even see that.

19:28

But I believe in the historical novel

19:30

as a sideways

19:32

way of getting to examine

19:34

the present moment in ways

19:37

that are maybe more interesting, at

19:39

least to me, than writing about like internet

19:43

anomie, right? I mean, that's not interesting to

19:45

me. I don't want to write that. And

19:47

it's great when other people do it, but

19:49

I don't want to write that. But I

19:51

do want to write about the

19:54

early seeds of the climate apocalypse

19:56

that we're actually going through, right?

19:58

I really about the

20:01

deep and urgent moral stakes

20:04

of being a human

20:06

in nature, right? And the way

20:09

that our perceptions of humanity,

20:12

our understanding that humanity, which has been

20:14

given to us through every narrative we've

20:16

ever been given out of the Bible,

20:18

that humans are close to God and

20:20

everything else is sort of below us.

20:23

But I really want to change that narrative,

20:25

right? That narrative is so poisonous and

20:27

has brought us to this point now

20:29

where we don't see that

20:31

a whale has as much right to live

20:33

as we do, right? Or that even like

20:35

a hundred year old oak

20:37

tree is just as beautiful as a

20:40

human being and so we need to

20:42

protect as opposed to see

20:44

nature as our opposition. I

20:46

do believe that writers today,

20:49

at least I

20:52

today, if I'm not engaging with the

20:54

biggest problem that has ever faced humanity,

20:56

which is the catastrophic climate change, if

20:58

we're not engaging with that, what are

21:00

we doing? We're streaming into the void,

21:03

right? We have to engage with that.

21:05

We don't have to engage with that

21:08

through dystopian fiction because I actually think dystopian

21:10

fiction is a really weak

21:12

tool to write about climate

21:14

change. I wanted to write

21:17

about the source of where we are now

21:19

and how we can rearrange

21:22

the narratives that we have taken

21:24

into ourselves so much so that

21:27

we don't think about, right? We

21:29

don't question the human centric vision

21:32

of the world enough. So you

21:34

mentioned earlier that Matrix and the

21:36

Vaster Wilds are

21:38

part of a triptych alongside a

21:41

new book that you're working on.

21:43

Can you tell us anything about

21:45

the new book? And what

21:49

are the themes that are going to connect all three of them?

21:52

Yeah. So the new book, I can't really tell

21:54

you much about because I've written now, I want

21:57

to say 15 different drafts

21:59

of it. from scratch starting

22:01

over again. And it's just

22:03

nowhere near, I'm not wise enough to write

22:05

it yet. And it may never be and

22:08

that's totally fine. Or I'm not able to

22:10

listen to it enough because I'm very scared

22:12

of what it's saying. It's about

22:15

now. And what I want

22:17

to do with the larger project with

22:20

First Matrix and Vaster Wilds and then

22:22

this one, is to sort of

22:25

see over time, like

22:27

a stone skipping across the surface of the

22:30

water, how the same

22:32

obsession sort of manifest in

22:34

different times, and bring us to where

22:36

we are. If I can pull

22:38

off this last book, which of course maybe

22:41

I can't, totally fine,

22:43

I don't care. I do care, but

22:45

I'm pretending that I don't. If

22:48

I can, I want the reader to

22:50

sort of see the same

22:52

traces that are sort

22:55

of being changed and

22:57

modified from one era

22:59

to the next to the next. So

23:03

you mentioned earlier your process,

23:05

particularly when it comes to drafts. And

23:07

I've heard that you often

23:10

write your first draft out in longhand

23:12

and then put that draft away in

23:14

a box and don't look at it

23:16

again and then start the whole book over. How

23:19

did that process develop? How did you learn that that

23:21

worked for you? Well,

23:23

so I'm really just working with my

23:25

own insufficiencies as a human being, and

23:27

I have a lot of OCD. I

23:29

mean, it's a big part of my

23:31

life. So I needed

23:34

to find a way to break the

23:36

need to control and the compulsive need

23:38

to control, especially sentences, because sentences are

23:40

the things that I love almost more

23:42

than anything else on the planet. So

23:45

I realized that if I were to

23:47

write longhand, first of all, there's more

23:49

access to the subconscious when you're writing

23:52

longhand, when you're not intending to reread the thing

23:54

that you're going to put on the page. But

23:57

also there's this beautiful catharsis

23:59

that happens. where if

24:01

there's something that you're really pleased

24:03

about, right, if you feel personally

24:05

like you did a really good

24:07

job, your ego is involved. But

24:10

if it doesn't stay from one

24:12

draft to the other, it's just not meant

24:14

to be in the book itself. I

24:17

just learned this over a lot

24:19

of trial and error and a lot of pain

24:21

actually. Like, I've never drafted

24:24

on a computer just because I'm old enough

24:26

that computers just didn't make sense to me.

24:29

I got my first one in college and

24:31

I'd already been a writer by the time

24:33

I was in high school. So just writing

24:35

longhand made more sense to me. But

24:38

also, my thoughts are just much

24:40

more intricate and

24:42

interesting when I don't have

24:45

that editorial voice stopping

24:47

me. When I'm not saying I need

24:49

to spell this correctly, I need a

24:51

period in a comma and a semicolon,

24:54

whatever. It's something about it

24:57

brings me back to this sense when

24:59

I was little that I could play,

25:01

right? And when children play, it's serious.

25:03

You know this. You have

25:05

a toddler, right? They are deadly serious when

25:07

they're playing because this is the

25:10

way they figure out how to live in the

25:12

world, right? Play

25:14

is joyous, but it's also every

25:17

time a child plays, they're pushing against the limits

25:19

of what they can do. And

25:22

so for me, it was

25:24

just a liberation thing, honestly. I

25:26

was liberating myself from expectation of

25:28

being good, of even being

25:31

coherent, right? I really

25:33

love the process. I don't do it

25:35

with everything sometimes. You know,

25:37

I'll write a single first draft and

25:39

then especially with stories,

25:41

it's good enough maybe to try to put

25:44

onto the screen. But with novels, I do

25:46

this over and over and over again really

25:48

quickly in the beginning and then slower and

25:50

slower as time goes on because I really

25:53

want to retain the sense of play, the

25:55

sense of discovery. And so how do

25:57

you know what's going to stay for the second draft?

26:00

Do you have that confidence that you're going to be able to

26:02

remember all the good stuff that was in the first draft that

26:04

you want to keep for the second draft? Yeah,

26:06

it's not confidence. It's more like

26:10

I have faith in the book itself,

26:12

right? It's not about me,

26:14

but it's about like the book telling me,

26:16

reminding me what it needs. And

26:19

I know not everybody feels this way, but I

26:21

try very, very hard to step really

26:24

far away from the book until the

26:26

very end. When you do want sort

26:28

of a super ego to come down

26:31

and help you with the editing process

26:33

and sort of the more

26:35

formal stuff, like the sentences and the

26:37

way that the sentences need to unroll. Right.

26:40

I think that with time and

26:43

attention, which is love, right? Attention

26:45

is love. The book will reveal

26:47

itself. So I want

26:49

to ask you about where you think literature

26:52

is going. This is

26:54

an industry and an art form that

26:56

has changed a tremendous amount over the

26:58

last couple of years. And

27:01

there are lots of writers

27:04

who say that it's impossible to

27:06

make money writing now.

27:08

It's impossible to support yourself. There's

27:11

also a lot of tension between literary fiction

27:13

and commercial fiction, you know, and they seem

27:15

to almost be going in very different directions.

27:17

Are you concerned about the state of the

27:19

book industry right now? Well,

27:22

the book industry is not the same

27:24

thing as literature. Yeah. Right. The

27:28

book industry is really the commercial aspect

27:30

of the art form, which is so

27:32

much deeper and stranger and more

27:35

profound. I'm not worried about

27:37

the books that people are writing and

27:39

putting into the world. I'm

27:41

so overjoyed to find how bizarre

27:44

a lot of them are. They're

27:46

going to continue to be. I

27:48

mean, market pressures are bad, but

27:50

market pressures don't mean that People

27:53

are going to only write, you

27:55

know, really compressed like commercial fiction,

27:57

which is totally fine. That

28:00

also there will always the weirdos

28:02

rain, our always the people writing

28:04

the things of the hard. I'm

28:06

not worried about that and I

28:09

am worried that there's so many

28:11

people who are scrambling so hard

28:13

just to sail I that they're

28:15

not able to and to. Put

28:17

their beautiful work in the world. I. Mean. Bad

28:20

as terrifying rate and

28:22

and sad but. I.

28:25

Don't know. I have a look at

28:27

some other really strange and wonderful stuff

28:29

coming out and I am pardons actually

28:32

because it's going to continue to develop

28:34

in the individual. I don't think we

28:36

need to look at literature as a

28:39

collective acts In terms of the commerce

28:41

say indecisive act the only in that

28:43

every single writer is sort of singing

28:45

back and said the melody of all

28:48

the other writing but as com before,

28:50

so on that note, are you are

28:52

you concerned? About Ai Because some people

28:54

think that Ai has the potential to

28:57

disrupt some of this or to. You.

29:00

Know fundamentally changed the way

29:02

we think about literature. Leasing's.

29:04

Yeah, now I think that's. A

29:07

class thing. literature as the products men.

29:09

For me it's still it's that daily

29:11

works Bad really matters and you can't

29:14

see tear way into the daily. Where

29:16

are you can't see to a into

29:18

the arts. I. Think there

29:20

will always be good readers who

29:22

can tell the difference between something

29:25

phoned in by A and something

29:27

that's really been struggled with and

29:29

worth through and sought through and

29:32

passionately and urgently I tended to

29:34

with all the love and the

29:36

raiders heart that's our it is

29:38

human the human and simulate crumbs

29:41

of that can make answer ten

29:43

minutes which is different from my

29:45

but they can't I don't think

29:47

make art. So. I.

29:50

Agree with you that Energy Minister front. From

29:52

Art but can you. Explain

29:54

for i listeners what you think the differences between

29:56

and at him in an art. Yes,

29:59

And this is the face of. Active so they may

30:01

not agree. It's totally fine. I

30:03

think Entertainment's supports a lot of

30:05

the given narratives that we have

30:08

in the world. Now it's It

30:10

is a conservative saying in that

30:12

it doesn't seek to seek the

30:14

core of what we believe art

30:17

is the saying. That.

30:19

Calls into question what we've taken

30:21

for granted or is the earthquake

30:24

fed? Sort of makes you saw

30:26

and look at your lies and

30:28

wonder. If you are doing

30:30

something without thinking it through

30:33

rates. Are the subversive

30:35

inherently ends? Entertainment's upholds

30:37

the status quo. Lauren

30:42

It's been so wonderful. talking to you

30:45

about your work and me Inside your

30:47

books give you into the forces that

30:49

shape our world and I've been so

30:51

thrilled to learn so much about your

30:54

process. but now when he gets know

30:56

a little bit more about the everyday

30:58

things that shape you in a segment

31:00

we like to call the last times.

31:03

So when is the last time you

31:05

went camping? Oh

31:08

My God has set up a

31:10

sense of oh wow. Oh yeah,

31:12

I do know it was a

31:14

twenty twenty one. Yet.

31:16

At Thanksgiving it ends. My poor husband

31:18

is too tall for the ten so

31:20

all night long the tent was like

31:22

beating against his head in his feats

31:24

like a drum. It was a me

31:27

as as. A

31:29

swindler. some you had writer's block.

31:32

I don't believe in raiders black, so

31:34

never. I mean bad at it. You

31:36

know there are times when we're supposed

31:38

to be fellow and read instead of

31:40

right? Interesting. I love that

31:42

wins. Last time you burned one of

31:45

your. Manuscript. Or

31:47

I did do that. I did at once.

31:49

I think it was when he eighteen and

31:51

every year on New Years my friend has

31:53

a bonfire and that year I just had

31:56

to burn him and his hips has. He

31:58

was killing. Me: I was so day. When's

32:01

the last time you challenged your sister to

32:03

a race? Oh, that

32:06

must have been. Oh,

32:08

no. Well, she's, you know, an

32:10

Olympic athlete. So probably

32:13

when I was a child and could beat her. So

32:17

now it's like, you want to race and you're like, no, thanks.

32:21

There's like, I would only challenge her to tennis,

32:23

which I can play and she can't. That's the

32:25

only thing I'd ever physically challenge her

32:27

to. That's everything else she's got me.

32:32

When's the last time your sons

32:35

did something that really made you laugh? Oh,

32:39

they are so funny. They're both

32:41

hilarious. Okay. So last week I

32:43

kept finding like a trail of

32:46

toiletries all the way up the banisters

32:48

into the upstairs bathroom. And I finally

32:50

asked them what was going on. And

32:53

the older son said, because my younger

32:55

son's so bad at morning hygiene, he

32:57

was leading him like Hansel

33:00

and Gretel out to like

33:02

with the deodorant first and the toothpaste and

33:04

the face wash. It was really amazing. It's

33:06

actually very loving. It was very loving. I

33:09

even said it forcing him to do it. He

33:11

just showed it to him. Wonderful.

33:13

Lauren, I cannot thank you enough

33:16

for coming on this show. This

33:18

has been such a fascinating

33:20

conversation. I'm so

33:23

honored to meet you. I've been a fan of your

33:25

work for such a long time and really thrilled to

33:27

have you on. So thank you. It's been such a

33:29

joy. Thank you so much, Charlotte. You

33:40

can find Lauren Groff on our 2024

33:42

time 100 list out now. Thank

33:45

you so much for listening to person

33:47

of the week. If you like what

33:50

you heard, don't forget to subscribe wherever you

33:52

get your podcasts. And we'd love to hear

33:54

from you. So send your tips or thoughts on

33:56

our show to person of the week at time.com.

33:59

I'm Charlotte. For The Alter, see you next week. Person

34:06

of the Week is hosted by Charlotte Alter. It's

34:08

produced by Nina Bizbano and Alison

34:10

Bailey. Our senior producer

34:12

is Ursula Sommer. Our story editor is

34:15

Katie Feather. This episode was mixed by

34:17

Rebecca Seidel. Our theme

34:19

music was composed by Billy Lippie. Joseph

34:21

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34:24

of the Week is a co-production of Time Studios

34:26

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34:28

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34:30

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34:33

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34:35

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