0:02

Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories

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podcast. I'm Andrew Lester

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On the euro 20 24, the Fort Football

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soccer tournament taking place in Germany at the

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moment, and the Olympics to come, sport is

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certainly in the news. And as something of

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an avid sports found myself, and make no

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apology for this episode concentrates on Physics and sport.

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Later in the podcast will hear from a harvard professor of physics who recently set the

0:30

record for the fastest woman to cross America

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odd fault. But first, John Eric Ga is the author of 2

0:38

books on the physics of sport, including

0:41

gold Medal physics and the physics of P.

0:46

I'm professor of Physics, at the University of

0:48

Lynch in Virginia in the United States.

0:52

And, though I was trained as a condensed matter

0:55

theorist. I've made my career

0:58

researching the world of sports. My first book was Gold Medal Physics,

1:03

which focused on a lot of Olympic sports. And my second book,

1:08

developed out of a love I head of

1:10

K. My family got into Martial arts and we

1:13

were doing Karate, and then I started doing Crop

1:17

Thought this is really cool and wanted to

1:20

honor my instructor by writing a book on it, and that's what I did. So Cr

1:24

Mag in Israeli, Martial Arts system. It was

1:27

developed in the thirties by Lich field to

1:33

combat what was happening during some of the programs against Jews in Brat,

1:38

and the fighting is much more up close.

1:43

Doesn't rely on the elegant caught that you

1:45

might be practicing in Karate, a lot of knife gun, terrorist

1:51

situations, you know, things like that. But it was just... It was something fun

1:54

to do at night and try to stay in shape a little bit.

1:58

When you're doing here, are you're thinking about the physics of it yourself?

2:02

Absolutely. When I was

2:04

in Martial arts class, my instructor who has

2:07

a great intuitive physics, and I think people

2:10

in general have a good to of physics, would be talking about the effectiveness of some

2:15

move, and I... Of course, my mind's is going to, well, of course, the torque gonna

2:19

be enhanced by this added lever arm and

2:22

we're gonna get this greater rotation speed. And,

2:24

I mean, all these thoughts are going through my head, and then I would ask my

2:27

instructor about some of these ideas and and keep

2:32

the jargon at a minimum, and and it was a good partnership, it was a really

2:36

good way to and make the

2:40

practice of Cro Guy even more fun just by doing the the science part of it?

2:44

It's more fun, but do you think it makes you a better marshall after As well,

2:47

that's that's the tough question to answer because

2:50

I can't hop in the parallel universe and go through this without a physics knowledge.

2:55

But I I mean, certainly knowledge is power, and and I'm, you know, only the billionth

2:59

person to utter that phrase probably. But the

3:03

idea that you have some intuitive

3:06

understanding of the physics behind a given technique.

3:09

I think pushes your mind into when you're practicing,

3:13

you know, I need to get my arm a certain way or my stance in a

3:17

certain way based on this physics idea. And if you're

3:21

thinking along those lines, it doesn't seem as

3:23

random. That you know, if you don't have the

3:26

science background. You know, if the instructor says

3:28

stand this way or turn your body a

3:30

certain way. That might seem a little more

3:33

random than actually understand why that's effective.

3:36

Is that the sort of the idea behind your gold medal physics? Are you're hoping that

3:40

athletes will read it and become better or...

3:42

Well, certainly, if athletes or trainers

3:46

could read it who helped the athletes, anybody who wants to read it and have

3:52

an eye on what's going on in the

3:54

Olympics or really any sport and

3:58

have that added little bit of physics inside the head, it might help them

4:03

appreciate what's going on in the sport. And frankly, they'll start seeing some of these

4:08

physics ideas in everyday life. It's not just the sports road

4:12

We're all constrained by the laws of physics. It's not just the athletes.

4:17

So, you know, the next time you have to change a tire and you've got a

4:20

big old lug wrench out. You think, well, gosh. There's this big lever arm here. I

4:24

need a lot of torque. I mean, That's

4:26

why you're not using a screwdriver to get the

4:29

they get the bolts off your tire there. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So I I wanna delve

4:35

into the... Some of the physics. Have some

4:37

of the sports, but I'm a massive football

4:39

firm. Right? Mh. Soccer Sure.

4:42

But the euros have... Are starting today is

4:44

we're recording this. Euro 20 24, which is

4:47

AAA tournament of... Or European countries is competing

4:51

in football for those who don't know. Soccer,

4:54

for those who really don't know and tell me about the physics of curving a

4:59

football. Sure. I mean, 1 of my main research areas is the aerodynamic of those world

5:03

cup football and also

5:06

other, balls used in tournaments.

5:09

But the idea is if you can get some

5:13

if you're back and you're going out for

5:15

a, you know, a long free kick, let's say, and you

5:20

kick the ball off center a little bit. You can get the ball to have a

5:23

lot of spin and perhaps a lot of

5:26

side spin. And that side's bin whips the air

5:31

off the back of the ball in an

5:34

asymmetric way. It doesn't come off straight off the back of the ball. It whips it

5:38

off to the back and the side, and

5:41

Newton third law tells us if the ball's

5:44

go whip the air in 1 direction, well

5:46

the air gotta be pushing the ball in the opposite direction, and that's what gives it

5:50

this lateral force to cause it to start curving.

5:54

So if you watch a lot of football matches, and you see

5:58

these great corner kicks, you know, they will sometimes

6:01

pick the ball with a lot of sides spin and bring the ball curving in toward

6:05

the goal plane. And hopefully, a teammate can get up and

6:09

out jump the competitors and get a nice header into the goal

6:13

or something like that. But it's much like if you look out

6:16

the back of a boat, and the rudder turns

6:20

sideways to make the boat turn, that causes

6:23

the wake of the water behind the boat

6:25

to shift in 1 direction. And that asymmetric shifting

6:30

is what causes the boat to move in the other direction. Football or soccer fans who

6:35

remember the 20 10 world cup, will be

6:37

aware of the Jab ball made by Ada

6:40

adidas at the time. It caused much controversy

6:43

among the football community and even made enough

6:46

gl on the Physics World website about the physics of the ball, When hit

6:51

with any kind of force the ball dipped

6:54

and moved in a way that seemed to

6:57

defy the laws of physics. Of course, it

6:59

didn't and we'll come to that shortly. But

7:01

famously, Brazil's goalkeeper at the time, Julio essays

7:04

are, described the ball as horrible and like

7:07

the sort of ball that you buy. From a supermarket. Starting in 20 10,

7:12

I partnered with a couple of colleagues in

7:15

Japan, and we

7:19

we're studying the aerodynamics of the Jab ball,

7:21

and we were actually the group that figured out why that was a bad ball.

7:26

It turned out the so called drag crisis as it's called when

7:30

you look in the wind tunnels and you get these,

7:34

coefficient of drag associated with the increasing win

7:37

speed. And what happens is is the speed goes up, the

7:41

drag coefficient actually starts to drop.

7:44

And this is up coefficient that appears in the drag force.

7:48

The force itself goes up, but there's a little dip in this coefficient. Well, the 1

7:53

for the Jab Was at too high speed.

7:55

And this drag crisis is where the transition of airflow

8:00

over the ball changes from a high speed,

8:03

which we call turbulent flow, to a low

8:06

speed, we call lam flow, and the separation

8:08

of the air off the back of the ball changes.

8:11

And that's... Was it at too high speed in

8:15

the 20 10 ball by a 20 14 when

8:19

Brazil came along for Brazil that got fixed.

8:22

And all the balls that have been used since

8:24

have been fixed. How have they been fixed? What what's actually

8:28

happened to them to make? So it turns

8:30

out when you make a ball rough, you can

8:34

actually make it more aerodynamic, and that may seem counterintuitive

8:38

to many people. The rough ness actually helps delay the separation

8:44

of this so called boundary layer off the ball. And if you're trying to understand a

8:48

boundary layer, if anybody's ever had fan,

8:51

it's like a ceiling fan or a box fan,

8:54

you know if it's real dusty, you're not

8:57

gonna get it clean by turning the fan on very high.

9:00

Because the air that's flowing over the fin

9:03

does not actually penetrate in where that dust

9:05

is. It won't get your fan clean. You actually have to do a little labor there.

9:10

And the air that's going around the ball.

9:13

There's a little cushion of air that very

9:15

low speed air next to the ball. And the air will separate off the back

9:20

of the ball. And, of course, if it's spinning, it could

9:23

do this in in a sideways fashion, But if you make the ball a little

9:27

bit rough, you can change where this transition

9:30

from lam to turbulent takes place.

9:33

And this rough comes about from the seams

9:38

and the text on the panels

9:41

and the number of panels that you have

9:43

with Jab, you had 8 panels,

9:47

and this was a drop from the team

9:50

guy that was used in Germany in 2006

9:52

where you had 14 panels. And when you keep producing the number of

9:57

panels, you're getting close to something like a

9:59

beach ball, and you don't want it too smooth, so then you have start putting these

10:03

artificial textures on there. The balls that are being used now, like,

10:08

for the recent world cups, they're using for the euros. They now use

10:12

these, d or these so called dimples and and

10:17

pimple structures, you know, they'll have little indentation

10:19

in ball on the panels, and the different shapes. And the idea is

10:26

as crazy looking as some of the panels are and the text

10:29

you're trying to get it effectively the same

10:32

level of rough that players have used with

10:34

other balls so that the aerodynamic

10:36

profiles look the same as what they've used the past. I've tickets for the Olympics, The

10:40

the the tickets that I have are for the final of the women's

10:44

football, which I'm very excited to. Fantastic. I'll

10:46

be watching the ball with with great interest, but there are plenty of other sports. I

10:50

love the track and field events. You know, I certainly love the high jump.

10:55

I love the long jump. You know, I wrote about Bob Be famous

11:01

jump in night 18 68 in Mexico city.

11:04

But the the idea that

11:07

the same laws of physics apply to everything.

11:11

No 1... You know, when you hear

11:14

sports caster, will sometimes say, you know,

11:18

defied gravity or, you know, did something to

11:21

violate the laws of physics. We know what that means. But, of course,

11:25

gravity wasn't really defied and the laws weren't

11:28

really broken. What's happening is human beings are getting to

11:33

a point where they're just pushing that envelope

11:36

right up to the edge, of what a human can do within the

11:41

constrain laws of physics. So

11:44

take the hijack, for example, somebody that's gonna

11:46

go up and jump over a bar.

11:50

Course Dick Fa showed us the right way

11:52

to do this in in also in 68.

11:56

To turn the body in such a way

11:58

that actually the center mass of the body

12:00

when it's con t over that bar is

12:03

actually slightly below the bar. It's kinda like, you know, you think about

12:07

a doughnut being, round with a hole in the middle and

12:11

the center mass of the doughnut is actually in that empty space in the hole.

12:16

You cut the doughnut in half, the center

12:18

mass moves up a little bit, but it's still in the empty space. So

12:23

you put the body over the bar and

12:25

you get the center mass moving below the bar. Well the reason you're doing that is

12:29

when the person is done all this training

12:31

and dieting and all this exercise and all

12:34

these technologies that might be helping in the training,

12:37

takes that run toward the bar and jumps.

12:40

Once that person leaves that,

12:43

you know, terra firm. Once the person's off

12:46

the ground, the laws of physics are gonna say that

12:49

person center mass is only gonna go so

12:51

high. And the question is what can the person

12:54

do with his or her body to make that in such a way that

12:58

well, let's get center mass under the bar, but maybe our body can go over the

13:02

bar. So in the old days when you tried to

13:06

jump you know, kind of a scissors style

13:08

or, you know, certainly if you try to jump over something with your feet

13:13

going over the bar, your center mass will be way above the

13:16

bar. That would have required a lot more

13:19

launch speed, a lot more energy at the jump

13:21

and, you know, a human maybe just can't do

13:24

that. Go to the,

13:27

hundred meters. You know, we talk about the

13:30

hundred meters is the fastest human race

13:33

when... Certainly when the men do it. The 200 meters

13:38

the world record time is less than twice

13:41

the time for the hundred meters. So the

13:43

average speeds is faster in the 200 meters.

13:47

But, of course, they're running the full hundred

13:49

meters the second time after they've done the

13:51

first hundred meters. I mean, they're not starting

13:53

in a block for the second time. But the the hundred meters Sprint,

13:59

when you imagine the, you know, the top athletes who've done this

14:03

like you saying bolt, same bolt was 6

14:05

foot 5. And when he set the record in 20

14:09

12, he only needed 41 steps,

14:12

the person who got the silver needed 45.

14:16

I mean, and and was 5 foot 11.

14:18

So the longer strides, the fewer number of steps,

14:23

the less energy needed by having to execute

14:27

so many steps. The 1 disadvantage someone tall has

14:31

comes from this lovely law of biometric scaling.

14:34

We call it. So think of the animals that can move

14:39

really, really fast with top speeds.

14:42

They're big animals, You know, they're big, you

14:45

know, the c is and and, you know,

14:47

other big game cats or something, the greyhound,

14:51

these big animals, big dogs, big cats that

14:54

can hit a very large top speed, but

14:57

they're not very good on acceleration. Because there's

15:00

a lot of mass to move who's really

15:02

good on acceleration or the small animals, You

15:04

know, a little Chihuahua moving back and forth

15:06

can change its direction in motion very quickly.

15:10

Bugs, you know, you look at bugs they can... They meant... You know, an ants not

15:14

gonna move very fast across, you know, the

15:16

concrete, but it's gonna turn very quickly and

15:18

accelerate quickly. Look at the smaller athletes when they're coming

15:22

out of the blocks in the hundred meter

15:24

sprint. They often get ahead first.

15:29

And then it's the taller athletes that will eventually catch up. So there's this

15:34

lovely interplay by who's gonna optimize

15:39

one's given advantage. Does the smaller athlete with

15:42

the better acceleration at the beginning, get enough

15:45

of a head start to win or does the taller athletes greater top speed

15:52

overcome the acceleration disadvantage and get to the finish line?

15:56

So it's a lovely thing for for me

15:58

to watch, you know, to see the different... I mean, I pay attention to their heights.

16:02

I wanna know, you know, who's likely to

16:04

come out of the blocks first. That's, Brilliant. I I mean, I love that

16:08

race anyway, but that's I, you know, something

16:11

else to it for me. Because they're in a similar kind of advantage disadvantage thing with

16:15

long distance run? Well, certainly, when you look at the long distance runners,

16:19

I mean, they're thin. When you've gotta go 5000 meters, 10000 meters,

16:25

you know, whatever the length of the races, you do not wanna have to haul a

16:29

lot of mass on a lot of

16:32

distance. You know, 1 of my other big research

16:36

areas is tour d France modeling, and I

16:38

love to model the cyclists and

16:41

you're never gonna see 1 of the big

16:44

sprinter winning the Tour France.

16:47

Because they they can't survive in the mountains.

16:51

It's the little guys that will, you know,

16:53

win by going up mountains, they don't have

16:55

as much mass to haul up and tell the, you know, the alps and p.

16:59

It it's the same way with long distance running. I mean, you're not gonna seize some

17:03

big muscle bound athlete

17:06

who's got a whole a lot of mass winning any kind of long distance race. It's

17:10

gonna be the smaller athletes, the the slider

17:13

athletes. And the techniques are really good. You know,

17:17

and we've now developed technologies the to help

17:20

train athletes that use virtual reality

17:24

that use as artificial intelligence

17:26

that can build entire you know, sporting arenas inside of what they

17:31

see in a virtual reality helmet that we can scan athletes when they're running,

17:37

we can put kind of these various markers

17:40

on them and actually do some wonderful analysis

17:43

to help them prevent injuries when they're running to make sure

17:47

the technique is right. They've got the right

17:49

hip rock rocking motion back and forth.

17:52

And by putting in the laws of physics

17:54

with a whole lot of data, it can help tell them what optimal way

17:59

of running reduces the amount of energy that they need

18:03

to use, keeps them fresher toward the end of the

18:05

race, maybe helps reduce air resistance a tiny bit.

18:09

All of these little things can be done now with the help of of scientific training

18:14

and and engineers and other, you know,

18:17

science minded people that could help with the training. Just to go back to the high

18:21

jump and things. Is that is that a similar idea with the dive and the diving

18:26

discipline? Well, certainly, when the body is above the

18:30

ground, the center mass of the body is essentially

18:34

following a fairly smooth curve.

18:37

And what the body does around that curve

18:40

is the fun part. So when you're looking at diving,

18:44

there's a law and the dive that you

18:47

can't initiate the spin

18:49

off the board. So

18:52

try to imagine you jump off a diving

18:54

board platform. And now you gotta start turning.

18:59

And how are you gonna do this when

19:01

you've only got, you know, a couple of

19:03

seconds, max depending on the height of the dive

19:07

above the water. Well, first of all, you're you wanna enter

19:10

the water with your head down. Your head's

19:13

not gonna be down when you're leaving the

19:15

board. So you're at least gonna have to turn

19:17

that much. And if you wanna turn a

19:19

lot, you gotta get into a little tight ball.

19:23

So they will you will sometimes see the

19:25

diver will put an arm up over the

19:28

head, and that rotational motion

19:31

to conserve angular momentum. This beautiful law of

19:34

physics that we used to study atoms and

19:37

in quantum mechanics class, and we go study

19:40

galaxies when we're doing astro physics to in

19:43

between that is the, you know, the diver,

19:46

let's say. And you got the arm going up, initiating a

19:50

certain rotation. Well, the body has to compensate

19:53

with a rotation in another direction. And all the various ways in which the

19:58

arms are moving can induce these various twists.

20:01

And when the torso comes down,

20:04

this is just exactly what's happening with a

20:07

long jumper. When the long jumper jumps,

20:10

center mass might be a meter off the

20:13

ground, but what you'll notice when they land, the

20:16

center mass is much lower. Well, that means they've extended their time in

20:20

the air. So how do you do that? You want the legs to go up. The

20:24

way you make the legs go up is you pull the torso

20:27

forward, which causes the legs to go up,

20:30

the rotations are in opposite directions. It's a... Takes an enormous amount of core

20:35

strength. I mean, it's not just you know,

20:37

hey, you know, move your torso down. An

20:40

enormous amount of core strength to do this, we'll pull the legs up. And diving,

20:44

The same thing happens when you pull the torso down, the legs will come up, and

20:49

you can get in that tight ball, that

20:51

nice tight tuck position. And if you've ever seen ice skater, you

20:55

know in the final spin, they'll have both arms out, They'll have 1

21:00

leg off the ice. Fully out as much mass as you can

21:05

away from that center spin axis. And when

21:07

they're ready to spin fast, They bring all this mass close to the

21:12

spin axis, they reduce what's called their moment

21:14

of inertia, and their angular rotation rate skyrocket.

21:18

Same thing with the diver. Once all the

21:20

mask comes in, they start spinning faster,

21:24

and they can get a few spins in before,

21:28

Now they need to get ready to enter the water, they need to slow that spin

21:31

down. Well the way they do it is, they elon, they get their mass. Way away

21:36

from the rotation axis. That slows them down,

21:38

and now they can enter the water with very little splash hopefully.

21:43

They're doing these things because that's the way you move like that,

21:48

But it's it's just so happens that it's also aesthetically useful for them to do those

21:52

things. And that's where they get the most. That's exactly right. And, you know, of course,

21:56

if you're doing the hundred meter Sprint,

22:00

there's no subject

22:04

involved. I mean... There's no judge. You're just...

22:07

Who can go from point a to point b in the fastest time.

22:10

When you're talking about diving, and some of the other events where there

22:14

are judges, I like to think of it as the

22:19

best command of the physics is gonna get

22:21

the best score. So

22:24

when you see someone with a really tight

22:27

tuck and a good spiral. And now all

22:29

that's coming from a lot of training and strength conditioning flexibility and all the right things

22:34

that are going into the training. But whenever they enter the water,

22:38

and they've got that low cross sectional area

22:41

going into the water, reducing the amount of

22:44

splash. I mean, I'm just thinking physics physics physics

22:48

the whole time. And it really at least

22:50

for me enhances the beauty of what I'm

22:52

seeing. Now I have to admit the first

22:55

time I watch the event, I'm in all

22:57

of what the athletes are doing. But when

22:59

I replay it in my head, it it really is the physics that's coming in. I

23:03

mean, I I think like everybody else I'm

23:05

amazed at when the athletes are doing. I mean, they're performing at the pinnacle or

23:10

their Met, and I am just

23:12

a guy watching it who could only dream of doing what they're doing.

23:17

I mean, just, you know, to be in that kind of excellent physical condition

23:22

And the mental condition too to be able

23:24

to focus, have the task in in at hand to

23:28

be able to acute what's needed, you know,

23:30

to kinda go through that middle checklist of what's coming up. I mean, you think about

23:34

the Gym, who's headed toward the Pom horse or any

23:38

kind routine or, you know, getting ready to get up on the balance being?

23:42

There's a routine in mind. How am I

23:44

gonna do the first thing? How many, you know,

23:47

I've practiced this a thousand times, you know,

23:50

just kinda going through that mental checklist, tuning out the crowd, tuning out what other

23:55

events might be going on. Getting that laser focus for the event. I

23:59

mean there's a lot of mental as well as physical,

24:02

and then putting it all together, you know, it's just dazzling to watch. You have your

24:06

physics insight, but you have the martial arts insight as well? Do you watch the martial

24:10

arts in the Olympics particularly? III have.

24:14

You know, it's it's funny when the 20 12

24:19

Olympics in London, when when bolt won his

24:21

race, if you pay attention, there was a

24:25

a green bottle that got thrown

24:28

behind the athletes right as the gun was

24:30

going off to start the final. And Edith Bosch

24:35

was the Bronze medal in J.

24:38

And she kinda laid into the guy who threw the bottle

24:43

and and they arrested him and, you know,

24:46

yank him out of the stands, but I

24:48

like to see the J come into play

24:50

during the sprint. But, absolutely, when you're, you know, watching the

24:55

J or the Tae, I mean Judah is about leverage, and where

25:01

is your center mass? And if you're gonna do a throw,

25:04

do you, you know, your your goal is to disrupt the balance

25:08

of your opponent. You know, you wanna get

25:10

your opponents. I mean, we all learn this

25:13

before we learn to walk. You know, you know if you take a

25:16

step, your center mass is moving forward and

25:18

you're about ready to rotate and fall. And

25:21

you may not be thinking center mass and place the laws of physics when you're a

25:25

year old. But this intuit

25:28

intuition gets in and instilled in us at a very

25:31

early age, And when it comes to Martial Arts with

25:34

something like J, you're gonna start grappling at the uniform, you're

25:39

gonna be pulling, you're gonna do something to try to maybe kick out a leg, do

25:43

something to disrupt that balance and get the opponent on the mask. You've

25:47

got more time when you're watching the the

25:49

the the martial arts things. Are you thinking more about the physics in the moment there

25:53

when you're watching? Probably in the time when...

25:56

You don't see, like, a lot of action

25:59

happening. Like, you... You you see the 2 combat trying

26:03

to... Get an advantage over the other. So, like,

26:06

before the big throw happens or Tae, like,

26:10

before a big kick to the face happens or some you know, when they're trying to

26:13

set something up, definitely, the the physics is

26:16

creeping into my mind that, you know, oh,

26:19

it looks like you know, the 1 on the right is

26:21

trying to get the 1 on the left, you know, it

26:24

keeps going after that left leg or something... You know,

26:28

you know, you can see that they picked out a vulnerable spot and they're trying to

26:32

execute a good move on that side or or whatever.

26:35

Because that's where those center mass is gonna be suffering an imbalance, You know, the the

26:40

stance isn't gonna be wide enough or something. And... Yeah, Definitely the physics is creeping in

26:43

there. Just think you some other sports in the Olympics. I... How about boxing?

26:48

The ability to keep 1 protected

26:52

when someone else is is hitting you. Now,

26:54

of course, you think about why are they

26:56

wearing boxing gloves. And anybody that has a car or an

27:01

automobile knows, there's an airbag. And

27:05

if you ever have an accident, the airbags

27:07

going to extend your collision time. That's the whole goal of it. Because that's

27:11

way better than hitting the steering wheel or a windshield and having

27:15

a very tiny collision time. Because that's gonna

27:18

require a huge stopping force, perhaps a fatal

27:21

1. When you're looking at something like boxing

27:25

with the gloves, those pads will extend the collision time and

27:29

reduce the force on the player. And I always like to

27:34

look at something like boxing and if someone gets a really good, like a good right

27:38

cross in or something and and makes contact

27:41

with the head, Well, I'm always thinking of good old Isaac

27:45

Newton from from your country there.

27:48

Third law says, you know, that person's cheek felt the same force that

27:53

the person's glove hand felt.

27:56

So, you know, they each hit each other

27:59

with the same force. But,

28:01

of course, when you're in a glove hand, you're not gonna feel as much pain as

28:05

when it hits your cheek even if you've got a a pad at helmet on.

28:10

So where are they attacking, you know, when

28:13

the the arms drop or something like that

28:16

or the guard goes down? It's just interesting

28:18

to see what the tactics are in the boxer.

28:23

But, of course, you've also got some new sports.

28:26

I mean, the the new sport braking, you know, the break

28:30

dancing is gonna be 1 of the new ones,

28:34

which you know, obviously, came out of the the

28:37

Hip hop culture. A lot of that was over here too

28:40

in the Us. But you know, you're gonna have a lot of

28:44

judging that goes on that. And there's a lot of great physics in the the break

28:48

dancing. I mean, you've got you know, when they go down, it's much

28:52

like an ice skater with the spin. I mean, when they wanna go and spin,

28:57

you know, mass has to move toward the

28:59

center. When you see people doing kicks in Tae.

29:03

If you wanna rotate quickly, Matt, your arms have to come in.

29:08

So any kind of sport where the athletes gotta rotate and rotate

29:12

quickly. You're gonna see, you know, mass moving

29:15

inward to make the rotation speed go up. So, I mean,

29:19

I'd be curious to see what the swimmers are like when they're in the thin,

29:24

you know, hopefully, the weather will allow it. I know there's been some recent worries about,

29:29

you know, swimming in the river there, But I I hope it will will play out

29:33

that they can swim in the sun. The

29:35

purpose of the legs kicking, of course, is to keep the body

29:41

somewhat parallel to the surface of the water.

29:44

Because you're really wanting to reduce air drag.

29:46

I mean, water is, like, 800 times denser

29:49

than air. So there's an enormous amount of drag there

29:54

that you may not need to worry about,

29:56

if you're a marathon runner, let's say. But the person who's swimming

30:02

is has a certain number of strokes in mind,

30:06

how they do the execute the turn

30:09

all these things that come into play lead

30:11

to, you know, tents or hundreds of seconds

30:14

difference between a metal and not metal and

30:16

all. Brilliant. I well, I hope the people

30:18

listing will find that, this conversation and, ideally

30:21

your books will, enlighten the

30:24

watching the. Well, and as they watch the

30:26

Olympics, I mean, there's all kinds of biometric data they're gonna see. I mean, you know,

30:30

it's... You talk about watching football. I mean, now we can...

30:33

See how far they run during the match,

30:37

we can... You know, if if they were wearing certain monitors, maybe their heart rates. You

30:41

that the teams actually can monitor these things.

30:45

Whenever it comes to the use of Ai and the recreation of the

30:51

kind of worth virtual reality scenes that you

30:53

might see. All these types of things are gonna be

30:57

seen much more when people are watching sports

31:00

into the future. Virtual So what do you mean by the Ai

31:03

representation representations for? Well, like, whenever you're watching

31:05

the euros and you're... You gotta... Close call on saying

31:10

off sides. So on the body, there are

31:13

29 points on the... Each 1 of the

31:16

football players body that are being monitored, and then you have these 14 cameras that

31:21

are gonna be wide field down onto the

31:24

the pitch, and the players are gonna be

31:28

reconstructed in this reality setting where you can

31:32

actually see, you know, does the elbow cross

31:34

this magic plane? You know, is there an off sides call, and it's gonna be much

31:38

faster. During the euros now that it's been in

31:42

the past. I think the past averages or

31:45

something like 70 seconds, and it might be

31:47

down to half a minute or something. Now, But when the fans see a replay of

31:51

it, they'll see a kind of a this

31:54

virtual reality and with the help of Ai will be reconstruct kinda of what the 3

31:59

dimensional image of the players involved, and the

32:02

plane and where it is and where the ball is,

32:05

the goal plane, perhaps if you look and

32:07

a goal call. But a lot of the all sites calls,

32:10

they'll actually get to see, you know, these

32:13

reconstruct player images you know, where someone's elbow

32:16

or knee or whatever puncture that plane and

32:19

it leads to a certain all sides call. Maybe have you read or what ready player

32:24

1. I have not. No. Okay. I just the thought that came

32:28

to my head. And if they can recreate

32:32

at what's happening in a football match that quickly in Ai. It doesn't seem like we're

32:36

too many years away from sort of you

32:39

know, being in being able to put on virtual reality goggles and be part of a

32:43

football match that's happened. Well, and that's actually been

32:48

suggested that at at home, you could have

32:51

the whole virtual reality pitch in front of you with the players

32:56

running around it you know, in 1 of these what you might think of now is,

33:00

like, a sci f f movie watching the little Hologram Mu. But that's not that far

33:04

away. And there been suggestions that the referee might even

33:09

wear these contacts, these smart contacts that will

33:13

allow them to have information updating on the contact, you know, that

33:18

can give them better looks at what's happening

33:20

on the plays and stuff. We have... We're not quite to the point

33:24

yet. Where every 1 of the players is wearing a body cam, but, I mean, you're

33:27

gonna be getting views from players eventually. Is there a particular

33:33

game or match of any sport that, you know, if you could do that and watch

33:36

something that's happened in the past in that way that you would Well, I'm sure anybody

33:40

in England would like to go back to 19 86 and look at that hand of

33:45

God goal. Although, I think even the technology back then

33:51

was good enough to see the hand on the ball. It's just, you know, things happen fast and

33:57

the roof we're not in the best spot

33:59

on the pitch to see it and things like that were you know, unable... And of

34:03

course, the rules didn't exist to go back and, you know, look at replay and all

34:06

that But as far as, you know, and Anna

34:10

I know that there was some controversy in 66 when England and and was Germany, an

34:15

interesting goal called there that I think some

34:18

were questioning. But the,

34:21

you know, the past of events would... I

34:23

mean it'd be fascinating to go back and look at, you know, some of the old...

34:26

I mean, I grew up as a big fan of baseball.

34:29

And I, you know, would be fascinated to

34:32

see, like, did Babe ruth call is shot

34:34

in 19 32. And, you know, when

34:38

Thompson hit the home run and fifth 1, you know, was he getting a signal from

34:42

the out field, You know, could technology get

34:44

picked up on things like that. Like, you know, they were able to do recently with

34:48

the Houston Astro? Yeah. I take Just to go back to

34:52

Mara. I think... I I've always kind of

34:55

understood a little bit how the hand happened because you know, human error and everything. What

34:59

I don't understand is how he managed to run dr through all of those plays for

35:02

the other goal. He was... Yeah. I mean, when he went through the whole length of

35:05

the pitch and just you know, past this.

35:08

I mean, you know, you just wonder where the defense

35:11

will. Yeah Yeah yeah. I'll things... Well, maybe physics

35:14

can explain that to me. Maybe Ai and physics can combine and explain that to me.

35:19

But maybe I don't want it to. Maybe that's just 1 of the magical things about

35:22

spoke Well, and, you know, there are the

35:25

the P who don't wanna see all of that on the

35:30

screen. I mean, it I grew up as as I said as

35:33

a huge fan of baseball, and it's really

35:35

hard for me to watch baseball games now

35:38

with that rectangle over the plate to show the strike zone.

35:44

I would much prefer that not that did

35:46

there'd be nothing on the screen because I

35:49

grew up wanting to see the little nuance

35:52

of where the catcher was sitting and you

35:54

know, was there any interplay between the catcher

35:56

and the batter where the glove was. And,

35:59

you know, when the ball's going over the plate, I kinda like to look at it

36:02

for my own view. I don't wanna see

36:05

a little circle appear with a number telling

36:07

me the speed and a slider. There's just...

36:10

It... It's too much on the screen. But if you grow up watching it that

36:15

way, you're just used to it, and of course,

36:17

you're, you know, the more of the better or something.

36:20

Now physicists don't only get pleasure from analyzing

36:24

sport, but by doing it, and it can

36:27

play an important role in well being in a career in physics which can, as

36:31

I'm sure many of you know be somewhat

36:34

challenging at times. From what John Eric Go

36:36

has been telling us you might imagine that

36:39

someone with a really good knowledge of physics

36:42

might be able to become an even better

36:45

athlete. Without getting into the complications of c coordination

36:48

and correlation. Here's Jenny Hoffman. I'm a professor

36:52

of Physics at Harvard University. And I am interested in quantum materials, so

36:57

I build microscopes scanning probe microscopes

37:00

to image what's going on inside quantum materials

37:03

at the atomic scale to look at how the electrons are interacting with each other.

37:08

And what that means about the microscopic properties

37:10

of the materials that could be useful. We're

37:12

working with scanning probe microscopes, which is the

37:15

sort of a genre that exists and 1 can buy

37:18

commercial scanning telling microscopes and and atomic force

37:21

microscopes. But we're was trying to push the limits,

37:24

gets the lowest possible temperature, the highest possible

37:26

field, the finest possible resolution,

37:30

and go where of commercial entities haven't been able

37:34

to go yet. My hope is that by imaging these materials that the time scale, we

37:38

can get a better understanding of how they

37:41

work and potentially have better knowledge for creating

37:44

new materials that can push the the limits

37:47

of utility. What attracted you to this area

37:50

of physics? I really enjoy

37:54

imagery, and I think that being a my

37:57

is a good way to blend

38:00

an interest in art and imagery with an

38:03

interest in science, and I always say that in another life, I might be an architect.

38:08

Where you put the art first, and then you have to do the science to make

38:10

the art stand up. And in this life, I'm a

38:14

where I do the science first, but I get to look at beautiful images. Under scanning

38:19

probe microscopes? When did those love sort of move in

38:22

the direction of being physics rather than the

38:25

other 2? I think I always knew that I wanted

38:27

to be a scientist. I've always enjoyed solving quantitative problems.

38:33

It's it's very clean. It's very satisfying.

38:37

And I feel very lucky that I stumbled into

38:40

a my microscopy lab and graduate school because I hadn't

38:44

really understood how much I would enjoy that

38:46

connection. So there was not not a process of long term planning, oh,

38:50

how can I intersect these 2 interests I just feel very lucky that I stumbled into

38:54

the right lab and had a great adviser? I think we all want to make an

38:58

impact, and I think, you know, 1 of the really tricky things is figuring out where

39:02

we can make the impact. And I

39:06

admit I'm still struggling to figure out whether

39:08

the greatest impact is in teaching the students

39:11

or in discovering new super connector, which is

39:13

a high risk, low probability

39:17

event. Or being 1 of the army of

39:19

ants all over the world that's searching for

39:22

the next super connector that's really gonna have an impact.

39:25

And so I think it's helpful to have a mix of things. I

39:29

think when you work with students, you know that the time that you put

39:33

in is gonna pay off. There's not the

39:36

same element of luck. And when you're searching

39:39

for a transformative new material, you do the

39:41

hard work, but not everyone is gonna get lucky, not

39:47

we don't know where the the big discovery

39:49

is gonna happen. So I try to think

39:52

about a balance of doing things on a daily basis that are

39:56

impactful to the people around me and then still laying the groundwork and having the hope

40:01

that I might make the transformative discovery that

40:03

changes the world on a larger scale. Jenny

40:06

also set a world record. For the fastest time on foot from 1

40:11

coast of the United States of America to

40:13

the other. Leaving Los Angeles in the early

40:15

hours of September the sixteenth 20 23,

40:19

after traversing the whole of the country in

40:21

that record time. Jenny finally put her toes

40:24

into the Atlantic Ocean at Coney Island, New

40:28

York. My first question of course,

40:31

was why? I love running.

40:34

I love running because it's a good foil

40:36

for physics. It's an area of my life

40:39

where I can just turn my brain off. And

40:43

work hard without the stress of decision making. I know that

40:46

all I have to do is put 1 foot in front of the other.

40:49

And I think that in my career as a

40:52

physicist, it's... You know, when you're young and you

40:56

look at science, you think, oh, it's all

40:58

right and wrong. It's all merit. It's all just how hard you work. And

41:03

then you enter the real world and you

41:05

realize, well, there's a anonymous peer reviews and

41:08

there's politics, and

41:11

there's humans making decisions. And I find this stressful. And

41:17

running is a good foil for that because

41:19

in running... Sure there's an element of luck you might

41:22

get injured or not. But

41:25

there's also maybe some more control, but if you run

41:29

the fast time, nobody can take that away from you, no anonymous peer reviewer can take

41:33

that away from you. So I think in that sense running is

41:38

a good foil for physics. I guess another thing is that I'm always

41:43

driven, maybe maybe it's almost a comp to do the

41:47

hardest thing in front of me. And for me, going to graduate school in

41:51

physics and being 1 of only 2 women in a class

41:55

of 40 graduate students. You know, that was a hard thing. And,

41:59

And and so in many areas of my life, I'm driven to do the hard thing.

42:03

And I've enjoyed and I'll been driven to run longer

42:08

and longer distances, and I think that running across my country is

42:14

the the pinnacle of that. It's something that

42:16

I've dreamed about in some way or another since I was

42:20

a child When I was a child I thought I would bike across the Us. And

42:23

and as I became more of a distance runner,

42:27

The idea occurred that I could actually run

42:30

across the country, and I've dreamed about that

42:32

for years. And I... I've tried several times actually. I

42:36

tried in 20 19, and I made it

42:38

almost all the way and suffered a heartbreaking

42:41

knee injury. When I was almost 90 percent of the

42:45

way there and well under world record pace

42:47

at that time, and then my run just came to an end.

42:51

After 20... Almost 2600 miles. I went home

42:54

in a truck. So... And and then I drink kept just kept

42:59

dreaming about it throughout the pandemic, and

43:03

until I got another spa, and I was actually all trained and ready

43:07

to go in 20 22. And then, again, got injured right before I

43:11

started. So negotiated with my dean who was

43:14

very kind and allowed me postpone postponed that

43:16

sa vatican and did on my training again and

43:20

started in 20 23. And on the third try, the luck was with Probably it's a

43:24

very silly question about how did you do it the fastest? 1 of the really important

43:27

factors in this all was teamwork that I

43:29

certainly could not have done this alone and

43:32

as I was running, I was being crude

43:34

by, friends who helps provide my nutrition, my water,

43:38

my food, my place to sleep, my map

43:41

my communications, my everything. And in some sense, I was a child

43:45

for 48 days. I relied on these friends to

43:49

do everything to take care of me so that all I had to focus on was

43:52

putting 1 foot in front of the other, and that was a real blessing.

43:55

That this group of women came together to help me to do that. No, I really

43:59

don't want to draw comparisons that aren't there,

44:02

but, but is there something in that way you

44:05

know, physics, science can feel quite solitary at

44:09

times, but it is always a team sport

44:11

in the same way as... Because you described

44:13

your run. Yeah. I... Well, I guess I

44:15

would emphasize how in both cases

44:19

the teamwork is so crucial for the success.

44:22

And In both areas of my life right now,

44:25

I have achieved some success and visibility,

44:29

and, you know, I'm maybe the the the front,

44:33

the the visible person who's succeeded in both operation of my

44:38

lab and in my Trans con run.

44:41

But I I really wanna emphasize how important the

44:45

team is and how grateful I am to

44:47

my graduate students who work so well together

44:50

and kept the lab moving while I was gone and continue to write and solve problems.

44:55

And and also, the team who helped me across the country

44:59

did so much work behind the scenes,

45:02

cleaning things and shopping and

45:05

finding their ways around unexpected d chores. And

45:10

and so there's some guilt there that, you

45:12

know, I get the sort of here I am talking to you. I get the the

45:16

publicity for all of this and really, I'm so reliant on the team.

45:21

And I think that some of the lessons that I've learned in about teamwork and in

45:25

the different areas have helped

45:28

both areas. I think it's really important to

45:31

express get... Gratitude frequently and express praise frequently,

45:35

and to help people feel like a team

45:41

and and make it clear that

45:44

I'm also rooting for their future success.

45:48

Jenny ran the 3032

45:50

miles in 47 days 12 hours and 35

45:54

minutes, averaging about a hundred kilometers a day,

45:57

shaving around a week off the previous world

46:00

record. That's 47 and a half days of running.

46:03

12 states, 27 corn fields,

46:07

11 pairs of shoes and I'm told 300 eggs, countless cookies

46:13

and a huge amount of laughter, and perhaps

46:16

even more tiers. Jenny says it's just a case of putting

46:19

1 foot in front of the other, but of course, at times,

46:23

the world has other ideas. I did

46:27

see a mountain lion in the wee hours of the morning in the Mountain Roads of

46:30

Colorado, and was quite frightened, and was lucky that a truck came by

46:35

at just the right time and the mountain Lion s off into the woods. So I

46:39

do feel that I was quite lucky. On a number of instances.

46:44

And people who have tried to run across the country have been hit by cars or

46:47

have suffered worse fates. So I'm... I'm very lucky that

46:52

I made it safely. You know, the first time it didn't feel particularly lucky when I

46:56

made it 2600 miles, and then bombed out

46:59

with a knee injury on a sidewalk in Cleveland. But on the other hand, I was

47:03

extremely lucky that I was able to have surgery and rehab and come back and try

47:08

again. So you have a goal for the

47:10

physics side of your life, and you've achieved

47:13

something absolutely extraordinary

47:16

in terms of your running, but what is

47:18

next for that side? Well, on Friday, I'm flying to Wisconsin,

47:25

and I will be running for 24 hours

47:27

around an indoor track in Wisconsin.

47:31

There is community of ultra runners

47:35

who compete at the 24 hour distance. The

47:38

idea is how far can you run in 24 hours. And the clock just goes.

47:43

So, you know, if you take a potty stop, the clock is still ticking. So it's

47:47

how how much distance can you cover in this 24 hours.

47:50

And every odd, there's a world championship.

47:52

And I have been privileged to compete on the Us team at 3 previous world championships.

47:57

Most recently, in Taiwan in December 20 23 actually shortly

48:02

after I finished the Trans con run, and it is just an amazing experience to

48:07

where your country's uniform and compete for your

48:09

country. So I am trying again to qualify

48:12

to be on the 20 25

48:15

Us team that will compete in the world championships in A be France. Oh, that must

48:19

be amazing. That experience of the coming together

48:22

of the world in a celebration of sport

48:25

being part of that being part of that village obviously, We've got the Olympics coming up

48:29

with the Olympic village that must be an incredible experience.

48:33

It's phenomenal. And it's it's really phenomenal to

48:36

see the cam between athletes and at in Taiwan, when I

48:41

was last competing for the Us. I spent some time talking to the British athletes.

48:46

And the other athletes who spoke English and

48:50

you know, 1 of the really heartwarming things

48:52

there was we have the opening ceremony and

48:54

the teams march in in their uniforms.

48:57

And when Ukraine came in,

49:00

the entire auditor

49:03

stood up and gave Ukraine a standing ovation

49:06

and, you know, tears were streaming down our

49:08

faces. And there's really just something beautiful about

49:11

the international community coming together and, you know,

49:14

even people who didn't speak the delaying which could really see and support each other.

49:18

And, actually, 2 of the Ukrainian athletes metal

49:21

at the world championship, and that feeling of

49:26

international comrade and support is just wonderful. How

49:28

far do you think you're run 24 hours then? So my personal desk is a hundred

49:32

and 45 mile the

49:35

international a standard for qualifying for the world

49:38

championships is 220

49:41

kilometers, which translates to about a hundred and 37

49:45

miles. So I've met the international A standard

49:47

already. I have that qualifier for France. But

49:50

the Us is a big country with a lot of strong women. And so probably

49:54

more than the 6 people. There's that each country can send, 6

49:59

women and 6 men, and probably, there will

50:01

be more than 6 women from the Us who meet the A standard. So I need

50:05

to surpass that performance. So I would like

50:07

to set a P of more than a hundred and 45 miles.

50:12

I think I'm fit, but 24 hours is a really long time and a lot of

50:15

things can go wrong from minor injuries to

50:19

nutritional problems to digestive problems. So, you know, every

50:23

race you show up and you just do what you can. I'd like to thank Eric

50:27

and Jenny for talking to me for this

50:29

episode of the Physics World Stories podcast. And with the

50:32

football or soccer championships of Euro 20 24

50:36

underway, and the Olympics to look forward to. There really has an awful lot for other

50:41

sport lovers to enjoy in the coming weeks.

50:43

And while I know that not all of you are physicists,

50:46

I wanted to leave you on this episode, with a final thought from Jenny, which 4

50:52

physicists is certainly true, But I think it will

50:55

chime for many of you in whatever walk

50:58

of life you're in. As I have spent

51:00

so much Time in my life advising students

51:04

on how to choose their own paths forward,

51:06

I think that having a pursuit outside of

51:09

physics or outside of science is really important.

51:11

And particularly, because

51:14

Science has a lot of ups and downs, and some of it is based on hard

51:18

work and some of it is based on luck and some of those are based on

51:20

the opinions of others. So having something whether

51:23

it's choir you in or a sport you

51:25

pursue or a knit club is really important.

51:30

For long term well being. We'll be back

51:32

soon with something else from this wonderful world

51:35

of Physics and don't forget to register for

51:37

the first ever Physics World live, an online

51:41

panel discussion taking place on Tuesday the second

51:44

of July, where we'll be talking the special

51:46

guests, Nicole Meteor and Mark Basin about the many applications of

51:51

quantum sensors. You can go to the Physics

51:54

World website to find out more and of

51:56

course, to sign up for that first ever

51:59

Physics World live. And until next month, thank