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1:27

Hi,

1:27

everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine

1:29

and Box Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara

1:31

Swisher.

1:31

And I was kinda gonna lie.

1:34

So what's going on with the with the

1:36

economy over there? Trust looks like she's

1:38

shifting again. What's what's happening? I need an

1:40

update from London.

1:42

So effectively, they've gone back. They've

1:44

decided to not change. What they had

1:46

decided to do was

1:48

eliminate the top tax rate. So

1:50

the idea, again, trickle down Reaganomics,

1:53

that if we have our most productive citizens,

1:55

give them more money, it'll all trickle down

1:57

to people. And Right. the market

1:59

threw up on the idea. And, also,

2:01

I like this move, and I I wanna

2:04

applaud the prime minister. I think

2:06

a a step back from the wrong direction, a step

2:08

in the right direction. So I I'm

2:10

not I see a lot of Twitter activity like, you

2:12

know, what an idiot? You know, that was

2:14

that was quick. You know what? What I

2:16

like about what she's done --

2:18

Mhmm. -- the majority of our leaders in the

2:20

US would double down. Oh, it's inflamed the other

2:22

side. I'll double down. I think

2:24

it's okay to say we screwed up. I like

2:26

this move. It was a bad move, and she's

2:28

undoing it. Good for her. Right. Yeah. There's a lot of economic

2:31

pain coming. you know, in the in the And the pound

2:33

recovered a little bit. Yeah. The market likes

2:35

it. Yeah. That's something Margaret Thatcher might not have

2:37

done. Anyway, I had a lovely weekend, miss Clara's

2:39

third birthday. Hatted

2:40

lovely. She's not a great party. Yeah.

2:42

Mhmm. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

2:44

It starts to get good from here.

2:46

It

2:46

starts to get good. Well, yeah. And then

2:49

she she's good the whole time. And then, well, it's

2:51

my wedding anniversary. I took my lovely wife out

2:53

to a dinner at a beautiful restaurant, six

2:55

course meal. You guys have been married. How long?

2:57

Two years. Two years.

2:59

Yes. Two years. Right? Yeah. Yeah. We've

3:01

been together longer than that. But, yeah, wedding. We

3:03

had a little outdoor wedding during the

3:04

pandemic. So today is our

3:07

actual anniversary. Same thing as Barack

3:08

Obama's and Michelle Obama's just

3:10

so you're aware. I'm gonna just impress

3:12

you. Remember your your anniversary. I

3:14

couldn't tell you on my anniversary of us.

3:16

Oh,

3:17

no. We had a lovely meal. It was really

3:19

very fancy. It had a wine pairing. It was

3:21

very nice. So I want you to wish Amanda,

3:23

happy anniversary

3:23

and Claire. Happy birthday. Happy anniversary,

3:26

Amanda. Thanks for jumping on that grenade. What

3:29

about Claire?

3:29

You can get Claire one. But

3:32

Goldenchild, give her her due.

3:34

She's three. She got a lovely present.

3:36

She got a high see on Golden Dot. Come

3:38

to London. Yeah.

3:39

I'm the London. Yeah. I'm still She

3:41

she got a t set and a

3:43

real a real t set and also

3:45

a bike a a balanced bike.

3:47

So she's very excited. very good.

3:50

She doesn't listen to this podcast, so I will say

3:52

we haven't it's not her actual birthday for a

3:54

day or two, but this is when the party was I got

3:56

her headset headphones.

3:58

she's gonna love me more

3:59

than ever. That's really shocking

4:02

because the cracks in the vox research

4:04

department came back and said that our two muscular

4:06

viewers are tech pros and three year old girls.

4:10

I also got you frozen

4:12

headphones for Christmas, so I'm so excited

4:15

to give it to you. Anyway

4:16

I would wear those. Just You what? Just as

4:18

a conversation starter. They're very humbling.

4:20

They'd show up well on that paint of

4:22

yours. That paint Otherwise, I fought

4:24

against people who don't like Scott Galloway this weekend was

4:26

stupid of me, but I can't stand them on there. It

4:28

doesn't mean to you. I don't like it. I'm sorry.

4:30

Yeah. You know what? I was really

4:32

flattered what Carrie is referring to is

4:34

I wrote a a blog post,

4:36

numerous analysis on identity. And essentially,

4:39

one of the things After

4:42

writing this book where I'm trying to identify

4:44

the issues -- Yeah. -- ailing America so so we

4:46

can talk about solutions. I

4:48

generally think our biggest problem -- Yeah. --

4:50

what I recognize is I think we've never been

4:52

stronger geopolitically. I think if you're an honest

4:54

appraiser of where America is right now is where

4:56

some are good to great. externally

4:58

relative to our competitive set. Food

5:01

independent, energy independent, GDP, consistent

5:03

GDP growth, everybody wants to come here.

5:05

I think what really ails us our biggest

5:07

problem is we don't like each

5:09

other. We're turning on each other.

5:11

Yeah. And we no longer believe that

5:13

Americans greatest allies or other Americans

5:15

-- Mhmm. -- that if we're a horror movie,

5:17

the call's coming from inside of the house. And --

5:19

Yeah. -- I said, is there a

5:21

way to enforce some

5:23

sort of third party -- Yeah. -- or --

5:25

Yeah. -- or decentralized identity

5:27

such that if Russian or

5:29

Chinese troll farms come in and just

5:31

try and create incendiary content

5:34

that pits us against one another. Could you

5:36

more easily figure that out and then screen

5:38

out that shit? Or or

5:40

vial content or what have you or promoting

5:43

a cryptocurrency through thousands

5:45

of bots? Yeah. You

5:46

just put out some ideas. some of

5:48

which people disagree with, which you noted,

5:50

which you noted.

5:50

Yeah. And and what I find is similar to

5:53

whenever you talk about two thirty or a

5:55

crypto. there's an absolutest mentality

5:57

where it's not let's discuss the

5:59

issue.

5:59

It's like, okay, you insanely rich shithead.

6:02

Yeah. I agree.

6:03

That's what pissed me off. they

6:05

kinda go after stop. You can't respond.

6:08

Like,

6:08

easy for you to say a personal privilege that

6:10

doesn't live in China. It's like, okay. How do I respond

6:13

to that? Yeah. Mama Bear came out

6:15

swinging.

6:15

I did. I was like, you know what? Here's

6:17

the thing. He's an insanely rich idiot,

6:19

but he's my insanely rich idiot. There you

6:21

go. First of all, And secondly, like, that's

6:23

exactly right. It was like, don't agree with him,

6:25

but and then he's like, because Scott influences Scabs

6:28

of companies. I was like, why don't you write

6:30

about, like, I don't know, Tim Cook or you

6:32

know,

6:32

keep up a chai. Everyone everywhere

6:35

listens to me. It's a

6:36

god. Oh, like, really? Really?

6:39

Like, Come on. Like, I wasn't saying minimizing

6:41

you, but I was like, okay. First of all, you're

6:43

using insanely rich excuse, which

6:45

I'm like weak. week, like, haven't

6:47

our actual debate. And this is a guy I

6:49

respect Mike Masnack, and he and I have

6:50

argued about two thirty.

6:51

Well, I tend to be on his side on this issue

6:53

too. And then, you know, like, the

6:55

the Jeff Jarvis as the world came out and had to

6:57

have their say patronizingly. But

7:00

it's it was really weird. I was like, let's ever

7:02

actual debate about this in time?

7:03

No. They're not interested in that.

7:04

Well, he's usually I find some

7:07

of his analysis, but lately, he's been, like,

7:09

Amy Glover shares an idiot. You're an idiot.

7:11

I'm, like, You know what? Actually, I'd like to have

7:13

an actual debate, and I tend to be on his side

7:15

on a lot of things compared to you. Like,

7:17

I disagreed with you last week because of that. But

7:19

nonetheless, no one's gonna do

7:20

that. But but let's just screen the sound. We was

7:22

we do try to, like, reverse engineer

7:25

to a learning here for a younger person. Correct.

7:27

That is correct. The learning here for me is

7:29

-- Mhmm. -- if you're not,

7:31

I consider myself a thought leader, and I realize how

7:33

arrogant that statement is. If you're not on a regular

7:36

basis saying things that really gets

7:38

a lot of pushback, then you're not saying anything.

7:40

Right. Yeah. And the key isn't to be right or

7:42

wrong. The key is to catalyze a conversation

7:44

and that might result in productive dialogue that

7:46

shapes and reshapes better solutions.

7:49

Right. And I get it wrong all the time. And by the

7:51

way, you say I just didn't have the

7:53

energy to go on last time respond. That's okay. I

7:55

did it for you. What I would say is, I wouldn't get

7:57

back in this phase. I'd say boss, post

7:59

where I got it wrong in the studies, and I'll

8:01

retweet it. I I wanna get to

8:03

a better solution. I I realized I don't

8:05

have a monopoly on the truth here. Yeah.

8:07

But there has to be some it's

8:10

worth thinking about right now. Agree.

8:12

Because there are too many people. I mean, you

8:14

saw what happened with the women's march -- Mhmm.

8:16

-- how that actor's got in there and basically

8:18

ruined a woman's career and started reshaping

8:20

people's view of the women's march. Mhmm.

8:23

There's gotta be a technical solution

8:25

for new

8:25

incentives to screen that stuff

8:27

out. There's gotta be a way to I would agree.

8:29

It's a complex topic, but nonetheless,

8:31

you're a rich guy who's flying around, like, some

8:34

like, if insane. Like, I was like, that's you've lost

8:36

me on this one. Anyway, I defended you, and I

8:37

think you shouldn't. And I don't always agree with

8:40

you. By the way, FYI. I

8:42

don't always agree with me.

8:43

I know exactly.

8:44

Sometimes I write shit and I'm like, well, I don't

8:46

know about this.

8:47

I was actually I was doing some

8:49

of it from the three

8:50

year old party. I was like fuck you. Oh, would

8:52

you like a cupcake? That's why you were angry.

8:54

Now I understand why you came in so

8:56

high. No.

8:56

No. No. I was just annoyed by that. I was super

8:59

annoyed because we try to come get to comedy here,

9:01

which is really good. Anyway, there's

9:03

a lot going on. Also, Amazon is

9:05

facing lawmakers led by

9:07

center,

9:07

Elizabeth Warren, one of the FTC to block the company's

9:10

acquisition of iRobot, which

9:11

was interesting Warren since the company's coach

9:13

shouldn't be allowed to just buy their way out of

9:15

competing and Amazon spokesperson said of the

9:17

letter request. The letter contains a number

9:19

of falsehoods and is broadly inaccurate,

9:21

which, of course, they don't point to anything.

9:23

But we talked

9:24

about this. I don't know if the FTC will do

9:26

this because it's quite a competitive arena.

9:29

Again, Amazon's being very candy and

9:31

what it's buying, MGM, tough kinda

9:33

competitive in the instrument business, tough in

9:35

the in the robot well,

9:37

vacuum business, I guess, was that what they're

9:39

doing there? home

9:40

presence. I don't know what to call it.

9:42

This

9:42

is a master class. I

9:44

I like senator I don't like senator

9:46

I think she's fighting a good fight. But

9:49

I think she's

9:50

more right than effective. And I just

9:52

don't think this is where they should be focusing their

9:55

energy. Yep. In terms of the

9:57

the antitrust case to go after. And what's

9:59

gonna happen is she's gonna spend her

10:01

political capital railing against Amazon

10:04

because they're big and powerful and that's not what

10:06

antitrust is about. You're allowed to be big and powerful.

10:08

Does this make the market less competitive?

10:10

Mhmm. And I'm I don't

10:12

know much about home appliances but

10:14

my my

10:14

my nascent knowledge of the home

10:17

appliance market is it's there's no

10:19

monopoly that's emerged, that

10:21

there's Dyson, there's Hoover, there's there's a

10:23

lot of them. Mhmm. And

10:25

this is where she decides to put her wood. drone

10:27

one. There's I don't even know of another one.

10:29

Maybe there's some from China. This is a

10:31

very specific time. With the picker upper.

10:33

I

10:34

don't know. I know. But there's not that many drone

10:36

ones. There's not that many

10:36

drone. I don't know quite why this is the one

10:39

there. Speaking of other legal issues, Kim

10:41

Kardashian is settling a charge for

10:43

promoting a crypto called Ethereum Max

10:45

without disclosing that it was an ad.

10:47

Kardashian was paid two hundred and

10:49

fifty thousand dollars for the post, Incredible. As

10:51

part of the settlement, she's agreed to pay one

10:53

point two six million dollars and

10:55

not promote any cryptocurrencies for three

10:57

years. First shot across the bow on this one. There's a lot

10:59

of celebrities. sucked into this. I

11:01

think this is foreplay to what will

11:03

be a much bigger set of

11:05

fines and investigations around

11:08

people who are not transparent around

11:10

their intentions when they go on

11:12

media to try and pump the value

11:14

of something. And her what's

11:16

different here here is my understanding

11:18

is she didn't disclose that

11:20

that she had a position here or that she was

11:22

getting paid. Right. But

11:24

I think this is a tip of the iceberg. And I

11:26

think when we're gonna stare down, when we do the

11:28

analysis, especially around specs, and we had

11:30

all of these individuals going on media

11:32

platforms, and using massive

11:34

Twitter following. So, essentially, pump

11:36

and then dot -- Mhmm. -- I think

11:38

that there's gonna be some sort of regulation, and

11:40

I think it'll be warranted that says, alright.

11:42

if you own over x percent of a company

11:45

and you're on CNBC making a

11:48

compelling argument and then using your Twitter

11:50

followership to promote it and

11:52

go after anyone who dares question you.

11:54

And at the same time,

11:56

you are selling like there's no

11:58

tomorrow that people

11:59

should have transparency into

12:02

that. What I think the the

12:04

rub here is that we're gonna find out so

12:06

many people made hundreds of millions or even

12:08

billions. Yeah. as others lost

12:10

money. And that is the Adam Neumann effect. Should

12:12

you get a commission on

12:14

other people's losses? Yep.

12:16

And it's it was the same algorithm. I have a big

12:18

Twitter following. I'm very charismatic. Media

12:20

loves me on because I say provocative things.

12:23

I make it such that I'm not on the board of the

12:25

company so I can sell stock without making

12:27

disclosures. Oh, she's a paid she's a

12:29

paid celebrity spokesperson model. sense. This is

12:31

different because she she should disclose that.

12:33

Right? But I think this is a bridge to

12:35

a broader conversation -- Mhmm.

12:37

-- around how do we ensure people

12:40

understand not only your incentives but your

12:42

actions when they're on CNBC pumping

12:44

a stock, and that afternoon's selling

12:46

it. This is interesting. Gary Gensler

12:48

said Kardashian's case serves as a reminder

12:50

to celebrities and others that the law requires them

12:52

to disclose the public when and how they are paid

12:54

to promote investing in securities.

12:56

There's lots of Floyd Mary weather was involved and there's

12:58

lots of celebrity sound. This is interesting.

13:00

Her attorney said miss

13:01

Kardashian fully cooperated with the SEC

13:03

from the very beginning, she remains willing to do whatever she

13:05

do can assist this SEC in this manner. She

13:07

wanted to get this matter behind her to avoid a protracted

13:10

dispute. The ARC Agreement

13:12

reached with the SEC allows her to do that so she can move

13:14

forward with many different business pursuits. That also

13:16

includes she just co founded a consumer

13:18

focused private equity firm with a with a

13:20

former Carlyle group partner. and they're

13:22

looking to do a debut firm. She's doing

13:24

a lot of stuff, actually. And

13:26

so, yeah, I agree. I mean, she she they

13:28

have gotten into trouble for versions of

13:30

this

13:30

before. but a lot more

13:31

here. There's a lot more here. And I agree in

13:34

this facts area. You've been very

13:37

vocal on this issue.

13:39

But

13:39

you said this, it's easy to

13:42

stereotype Kim Kardashian

13:44

because of her physical appearance and just have Hot

13:46

she is. I think she's actually a pretty

13:48

savvy business woman. Yeah. She knew to get

13:50

out of this. But did but

13:52

she handled it well? She knew she

13:55

was wrong. She didn't double down. She didn't

13:57

appeal it. She said she basically said, you're

13:59

right. I'm wrong. Here's the fine.

14:01

I apologize. Let's all move on. That

14:03

she didn't have to admit wrongdoing. Yeah.

14:05

She acknowledged the issue and she's she's

14:07

paying it. She's not I think

14:09

it was poor judgment. I mean, it goes back to the

14:11

trust thing. Mhmm. Everybody

14:13

fucked up. The the key

14:15

is you don't necessarily need to double

14:17

down. the FCC, the

14:19

populate everybody loves to forgive. Admits

14:22

you are wrong. Pay the fine. Move

14:24

on. Yep. Yep. And

14:25

they they can make a case ever to scare other people.

14:27

And there'll be a lot more you'll see a lot more of

14:30

this. It's very easy for the SEC to do

14:32

these, by they can they can make

14:34

some money and settle very quickly with most

14:36

people. Alright. Let's get to our

14:38

first big story.

14:41

Another

14:42

big week in the world of Elon Musk.

14:44

First, the court documents revealed private text

14:47

messages between Musk and tech a listers like

14:49

Jack Dorsey and Joe Lonsdale in which

14:51

they discussed the Twitter deal. Joe Rogen, as

14:53

we've talked about before, and even Gail King, we're in the

14:55

mix among the revelation. Matayas

14:57

Dopner of Axel Springer wanted to be

14:59

Twitter's CEO. Elon

15:01

pitched Oprah as a potential board

15:03

member. By the way, that's been pitched before by Jack

15:05

Dorothy. He said that he shouldn't be

15:07

anyone's boss he also was

15:09

in a discussion with Brett

15:11

Taylor about bots, and that was to

15:13

me the more important thing. Some of this stuff is just

15:15

kind of fun and games. of them

15:17

talking. But two weeks before he

15:19

signed the merger agreement, he wrote to Brett

15:21

Taylor, purging fake users will

15:23

make the numbers look terrible So restructuring should

15:25

be done as a private company. And

15:27

so I think it puts him in a

15:29

very bad position in this court case.

15:30

He's got to settle and figure out this

15:33

eleven billion dollar difference between what he agreed

15:34

to pay for it and what Twitter's worth right

15:36

now. He's he's got this some

15:38

of these texts are, as I said,

15:40

silly. The others are very

15:43

significant, I think. Howard Bauchner: Well, I

15:44

think you've zeroed on. And that is - this is

15:47

Celebrity porn and it has some

15:49

- it's illuminating about rich

15:51

people in society, but the substance is

15:53

exactly

15:53

what you said that he knew about the bots.

15:55

He was planning to address the bots. It was

15:57

a key component of why he was drawn

15:59

to the platform was he thought that one of the ways he could

16:01

add value was cleaning it up. This will be

16:03

the text you just referenced will be exhibit number

16:06

one -- Yeah. -- that WACTel will put

16:08

forward on behalf of Twitter's case. that the notion

16:10

that he somehow was shocked

16:12

by the number of bots

16:14

that -- Yeah. -- he knew about it and that

16:16

he, you know, his interest in this thing

16:18

waned when he came off his panic episode and

16:20

realized he was paying forty five

16:22

billion dollars worth for something worth probably

16:24

eighteen billion. The I

16:26

mean, I'm curious to get your take. And when I read these texts, at

16:28

first, I thought I should I be reading the text of other people

16:30

commenting on that, well, it's part of a case. It's it's a

16:32

legal case. Sure. Yeah. A few things

16:35

really struck me. The

16:36

first is just

16:39

income inequality. And I I know that

16:41

sounds classless, but Larry

16:43

Ellison offering a billion

16:45

dollars on a deal he hasn't looked at over

16:47

text. Mhmm. It's like Well, Sam

16:49

Bank and Fried also wanted to give

16:51

money -- Five billion.

16:52

-- with that just he come and fly out

16:54

there and then it'll be a hammer. And

16:55

you get five or ten billion dollars? Yeah. It's

16:57

just like I mean I mean, Kara, who hasn't had

16:59

a friend offer him a billion dollars over tax.

17:01

Would you fly here and give me

17:03

money? It's not I mean, really? So

17:04

I just wanna I was I was wanna

17:06

bring this back to me. In late, I

17:08

think it was ninety nine.

17:11

or

17:11

two thousand. My company read envelope was struggling

17:13

and we had to raise more money and Sequoia

17:15

came in and smelled blood and said, okay, let's wash

17:17

out the founders and do a rights offering.

17:19

and I didn't have any money to defend my position in

17:21

the company. Mhmm. And my friends, Greg and

17:23

Cindy Show, I'm I'll I'll always

17:26

remember was really stressed out. I was going through a divorce. I was

17:28

broke and I was about to get washed out of a company

17:30

I'd started. You know, kind of the classic

17:32

the Silicon Valley store you don't hear

17:34

about. in in fast company.

17:36

And I was just so stressed

17:38

and disappointed on a number of personal and

17:40

professional things going on in my life. And

17:42

my friends, Greg and Cindy Show, called me from

17:44

the car and they said, hey, we were talking about you and they

17:47

said, could you use a million

17:49

dollars?

17:49

What? Can

17:50

you imagine that? mean, they're good friends. Yeah. But

17:52

they called me and said, could you use a million dollars? And

17:54

you know what I said? Yes.

17:57

Oh. And they wired me the

17:59

money. No

17:59

agreement. This is a rich guy's thing.

18:02

This is a rich guy's story. And I paid them

18:04

back I paid them back with interest, but I

18:06

remember thinking loan, they loan. That was the

18:08

most crazy generous

18:10

thing. Yeah. And I I and they have

18:12

taught me. I've tried to pay it forward on a regular

18:14

basis, and now I'm virtue signaling I

18:16

call and offer people money when I get the sense they're stressed about money.

18:19

Oh, hey. I understand. I'm very

18:21

stressed about money. Nice

18:26

dry. Nice dry. Love. You

18:28

got a three year old. a new pair of

18:30

shoes. No. That's right. anniversary gift. See the kids

18:32

again. I forgot the anniversary. I got

18:33

a beautiful gift. And I thought

18:35

that was the most and it was extraordinary

18:37

thing that had ever happened to me.

18:39

on a, like, a friendship money

18:41

level. Uh-huh.

18:42

This is

18:43

Larry Ellison offering -- Yeah. -- a thousand

18:45

times that offering. Although he was

18:48

sort of pushing him off. Like, I'll get to

18:50

you. Like, that kind of thing. That's how little it

18:52

mattered to him. Like, I think these

18:54

people You wanna talk about playing on a

18:56

different level, so the first thing is and I don't know what to do about

18:58

it. And I realize I'm coming this is class

19:00

warfare, but I'm like Jesus Christ. These people

19:02

really have this much money.

19:03

Yeah. Well, they all want a piece of Twitter. They all want a piece of they

19:06

were like, oh, I'd like to get a a good

19:08

idea. Like a piece of Twitter. I could see

19:10

that going through their little brain because they can't

19:12

own they can buy almost anything else. This,

19:14

they can't buy.

19:14

So The the second thing is the

19:17

Achilles heel. of

19:19

every really famous wealthy person

19:21

is they become

19:24

so

19:24

entrenched in their own bubble and

19:26

they have so many people around them telling them they're amazing. They

19:28

just lose touch. Yeah. And the

19:30

sick of infection data. Yeah.

19:33

There's so overwhelming. Yeah.

19:36

Just how I mean, it's just like

19:38

let's just give everyone a moment to take

19:40

his dick out of your mouth. I mean, it's just

19:42

like, my god. Yeah. There

19:44

was a lot of it. There was a lot of that. But again, it doesn't matter

19:46

the one to Brett Taylor. I think I wrote him whoa.

19:48

I wanna do an interview. I think that's what I wrote

19:50

text. I mean, I didn't text him. I think I emailed

19:53

him. away from all of this and the Oprah on the

19:55

board. And again, Jack Dorothy, many years ago,

19:57

wanted to bring Oprah. Many times have they thought

19:59

about Oprah on the board

19:59

of Twitter -- Mhmm. -- when they were looking for

20:02

a lady. but she's never she's not

20:04

getting near this. Let's just say Oprah's a

20:06

little smarter. The most interesting story

20:08

is about my stalker in those

20:10

texts. Mhmm. Jason Calcannas.

20:12

Well, they're very close friends just so you know.

20:14

Okay. It's close friend. Two or three months

20:16

ago, Matt Levine wrote that Jason was out there

20:18

marketing access to the Twitter deal.

20:20

He's saying that I can get you into the Twitter deal. And he was

20:23

gonna take a fee for it and then

20:25

ten percent of the upside. And and then and

20:28

like, That sounds desperate. We even said on this show, I

20:30

said, that sounds kind of desperate. Did

20:32

Elon has to get Jason Cal

20:34

candidates who deals in pretty small checks to raise

20:36

money for a forty five billion dollar deal.

20:38

Mhmm. Here are the

20:40

techs, must to Calcannas. What's going

20:42

on with you marketing an SPV

20:44

to Randos? This is

20:46

not okay. Not Randoll's. I have the

20:48

largest Angel syndicate. That's how I

20:50

invest. We've done two hundred fifty plus

20:52

deals. And then he goes on to say, Morgan Stanley

20:54

and Jared think you are using our

20:56

friendship not in a good way. Yeah. This

20:58

makes it seem like I'm desperate.

21:00

Please stop.

21:01

Yeah. So

21:02

Jason was out there marketing

21:06

access to a security that he

21:08

did not have permission to

21:10

market. Right. To me, that is

21:10

I think that was good for Elon,

21:12

though. He he him I mean, in that case, I

21:14

was, like, good on Elon for doing that. I

21:16

think these

21:16

texts on the whole actually

21:19

reflect fairly well on Elon. I

21:21

would agree. I would agree. Who they reflect

21:23

poorly on is his All his

21:25

hangers on her and friends and who were trying to

21:27

get in on Dan Jason goes on to sail. I'll

21:30

die for the sword fuel, I'll jump on a grenade. He

21:32

comes across like a

21:34

man who gets caught stealing his watch and

21:36

then drops to his knees, hoping if he collates

21:38

him, he'll forget about the watch he's

21:40

just trying to steal. Too much. Yes. A

21:42

little bit of it. That's very that that's how

21:44

he talks. But In any case, I think what he's gotta wonder

21:47

is like who's his friends and who's not his

21:49

friends. And I think that's hard when you're

21:51

that rich. It doesn't matter. No matter

21:53

what I said this to so many of these billionaires. I'm like, I'm

21:55

your best friend because I don't care, like, kind of

21:57

thing. I just want the interview, of course. Anyway, one

21:59

of the things that he does was he openly sparred

22:01

with Parag Agarwal yeah. He obviously,

22:04

if he is forced to buy at par, we'll

22:06

not have the job. I continue to believe and

22:08

I've been texting with people who know

22:10

You know, Ari Emmanuel, like, enter

22:12

the picture. That's a probably a good idea to

22:14

have someone who's not a who's a who's close to

22:17

Elon and who will he's very convincing and

22:19

charming. There's all these relationships,

22:21

Ari, between Ari and Egan Durban who's

22:23

on the board of Twitter or what's he's

22:25

on the board of Twitter still. And

22:27

he also was, I think, on he was very close to Ari through

22:29

the WME deal. I believe he's still on

22:31

the board there. He may not still be. But he

22:33

was very integral to that deal. There's

22:36

all kinds of inter personal relationships here. If

22:38

they if Elon was smart, he would

22:40

let people who are

22:41

smarter make deals. make

22:44

smarter on this stuff, make the deal, and and

22:46

get the hell out of it. There's an eleven billion

22:48

dollar delta. So somewhere

22:50

between zero and eleven billion

22:52

dollars, there's a number that he should take and

22:54

run as soon as he

22:54

can. But you bring up another key point. Is

22:57

that in addition to trusting people

22:59

or having third parties who do I used to think when

23:01

I was younger, too smart. And when I did an M A deal that I, like,

23:03

I would do the deal myself and I quickly learned

23:05

that's really stupid. You there there's a reason

23:07

why investment bankers make so much money.

23:10

and third parties are better at representing you than

23:12

you are yourself. Right. There's

23:14

another lesson here

23:15

and that is you have

23:18

to have in your circle, people who are

23:20

prone to disagree with you.

23:22

Yeah. And if you look at

23:24

corporate governance history, whether it's

23:26

Theranos, whether it's Enron, the

23:28

boards all had one thing in common. They all

23:31

got along too well. They all

23:33

agreed with each other on everything.

23:35

All the board meetings We're

23:37

super civil, great point. That's what we

23:39

should do. Never questioning the CEO.

23:42

Yeah. Just go along, get along. And this

23:44

guy has Absolutely. No

23:46

garbage out of you. That's not true. There's

23:47

a few people around them that do. I I just hope

23:49

they get some voice.

23:50

They're not texting

23:51

them. No. But I

23:54

think Ari Emmanuel and Egan Durbin will

23:56

probably they all wanna have good

23:58

relationships with him, but I suspect they

23:59

will be Arie will be charming and

24:02

also tough. And so because

24:04

he's always looking for the angle. Right?

24:05

And same thing with the even very smart

24:08

investor from silver. Like, just I

24:10

would Elon,

24:11

if you're listening, please listen to them.

24:13

Just do get

24:14

get to a settlement here

24:17

because if not, it's gonna just drag

24:19

on and gonna gonna occupy your life. I don't

24:21

think

24:21

it can. I think

24:22

it can. I think it can. Through these texts, I

24:24

was like, oh, there's the Elad, I

24:25

know. There's the Elad. I But

24:28

play it out but play it out here. I'd say he offers

24:30

him ten billion dollars. Mhmm.

24:32

The shareholders go, no.

24:34

This deal his this legal case against

24:36

him that he's gonna lose is worth twenty

24:38

billion. And I don't think he's gonna pay that. Well,

24:40

there's an eleven billion dollar delta.

24:42

So I don't know. I think everyone's gonna wanna like, if

24:44

not, they're gonna end up with nothing, everyone's gotta

24:46

be very clear. If they

24:47

if they keep going at this, they're gonna end up,

24:49

you know, they keep fighting, everyone's gonna

24:51

end up without anything.

24:53

So two other observations. Okay. I

24:55

haven't been involved in a deal this big, but I've been

24:57

in the center of like multi hundred

24:59

million dollar and low single digit billion

25:01

dollar deals, Elon went from going on the

25:03

board to deciding who's gonna acquire the

25:06

firm. when he decided he was gonna acquire the firm and no longer

25:08

want to be inside the tent, he put out a tweet

25:11

saying his Twitter dying. And then

25:12

Parag, I thought

25:14

sent exactly the right email. They said, look,

25:16

boss. You can say what you want, but you're

25:18

not helping. Mhmm. I thought that

25:20

was direct. I thought that was CEO behavior. drugs

25:23

like that. That's his nature too,

25:25

Barry. And Elon wrote back, what have

25:27

you done this week? What have you gone to come

25:29

this week? And I thought, yeah, that that that was

25:31

kind of an asshole move. You don't fucking in

25:33

most I've dealt with

25:35

corporators who are very aggressive. They

25:37

maintain a certain level of decorum

25:39

respect for other people. Yeah. Yeah. It's

25:41

not like This is very direct. And

25:43

Elon doesn't do that. The other big

25:45

observation -- Mhmm. -- I believe if you got a

25:47

room of people who make okay

25:49

living, but aren't rich, and then you

25:51

got a room of millionaires together.

25:53

And I I realize this doesn't sound great. I

25:55

think you could immediately figure out which room are

25:57

the millionaires and which room where

25:59

the people who who just doing okay. I think if you had

26:01

two

26:01

rooms with millionaires and one with billionaires, you

26:04

wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And

26:07

thing that comes out here is people are playing checkers,

26:09

not chess. They're impressive

26:12

people, but the reason they're billionaires and not

26:14

millionaires is mostly luck. It's mostly not

26:16

their fault. And when you

26:17

see the way they behave, the way they equip

26:20

themselves, it's pretty obvious.

26:21

There's no secret sauce there

26:23

other than being born at the right place and

26:25

the right time.

26:26

I don't know about that. I some of the people I was listening

26:29

to an interview that I'd forgotten that

26:31

Steve Jobs did with Walt and I, and it's so

26:33

smart. This this this he

26:35

was talking about making mistakes

26:38

and also iterations in tech. And I'm

26:40

gonna send it to you because I was like, oh

26:41

my god. This is this guy really

26:43

did have a big mind, like, in terms

26:45

of thinking practically, and he was

26:47

talking about, oh, it was really good

26:50

about where to

26:51

make the risk, where not to make the

26:53

risk. It was so well thought out. think some of them are and

26:55

I think among these people, when you

26:57

get him going, when he's not in this

26:59

weird celebrity

27:00

bubble, he is very

27:02

smart like that. You can

27:03

have a really fascinating discussion. I think

27:05

the problem is this these suckups that

27:08

these techs showed you. You should see this all day long.

27:10

Alright. Hey, dude. Hey bro.

27:12

Good job. Woo. That kind of stuff.

27:14

And sometimes, you know, he deserves a

27:16

good job, like, landing that

27:18

rocket on a thing. I

27:19

Sure. I sent him a text and said,

27:20

fucking impressive. Like -- Yeah. -- but it's not

27:22

that it's not because I wanted

27:23

anything from him. It just was, and you should acknowledge

27:26

that. The relationship between intelligence

27:28

and wealth is positive. There's a

27:30

correlation. But it tops out at about a hundred and ten

27:32

or a hundred and twenty IQ. The difference between

27:34

intelligent people and geniuses, there's no correlation

27:36

with wealth. And I think that

27:38

there are a lot of really

27:40

impressive comments you just highlighted

27:42

from Steve Jobs. I can find you a

27:44

lot of people who are just so

27:46

strikingly impressive and they've made a really

27:48

good living. Mhmm. I have never been able

27:50

to discern the difference between someone who is

27:52

successful and someone who is

27:54

a billionaire. other

27:54

than luck. Yeah. That's the problem here

27:55

with me. Right? That's the thing. Brilliant. Well,

27:58

anyway, why isn't she a billionaire?

27:59

Okay. Some points. case

28:03

employees. Anyways -- Alright. -- they

28:05

put their they put their pants on one leg

28:07

at a time. You know? You know, whenever I get I

28:09

don't know about you. whenever I get occasionally,

28:11

I get an offer someone will say, my husband

28:13

loves the show and he's dying to meet you and wants

28:15

advice and I'll I'll donate extra charity. I never

28:17

send out because I'm they're gonna

28:19

be disappointed. Your your husband has

28:21

this vision of me that's just not reality. Don't

28:23

don't be mean. I meet with everybody. Nothing

28:26

mean. Nothing

28:26

mean. Be nice to your fans.

28:29

Nice. Your fans are nice to you.

28:31

Anyway, let's go on a quick break. We

28:33

come back. Dick

28:35

Doug's European numbers are out.

28:37

and they're huge, and we'll speak with a friend of pivot,

28:39

Gabriel De Benadetti, about the hidden

28:41

sides of the Biden Obama relationship.

28:44

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31:10

Scott, we're

31:12

back

31:12

TikTok is tallying up some huge gains and losses

31:14

in Europe and filings with the UK. The app

31:17

reported close to a billion dollars in turnover for

31:19

twenty twenty one according to

31:21

Financial Times. That's nearly six times its

31:23

previous take in Europe. On the other hand, it lost

31:25

nearly nine hundred million dollars. The

31:27

company says the staff compensation was the primary cause

31:29

it's been higher and like crazy. I spoke with TikTok's

31:31

COO, Vanessa Pappas, out getting

31:33

certified by the committee on foreign investment

31:35

in the US, should

31:37

TikTok go through a similar process for

31:39

its European businesses. I did ask her

31:41

and she didn't

31:42

answer. She was much firmer. I asked her what

31:44

she would have said to Josh Holly if she had thought

31:46

a little harder. She was talking about the reductive nature of those things

31:48

and everything else. She did a pretty she was pretty good in

31:50

this interview, very strong. They're thriving in

31:53

Europe. They're thriving over there, they're losing

31:55

money. Certainly, but it's certainly a business

31:57

on the upswing and

31:59

certainly would be able to

31:59

be profitable presumably as

32:02

long as they get these go aheads in these

32:04

countries. What do you think? It's

32:06

it's

32:06

not precedent. This firm I mean, keep

32:08

in mind, okay, a billion dollars and still

32:10

losing money the year before. Years,

32:12

you know, years go click by pretty

32:15

quickly. they grew hundred percent. This firm

32:17

-- Yeah. -- is growing much faster.

32:20

Revenue wise, different

32:22

revenues Users,

32:23

daily active

32:26

users, are all growing faster

32:28

than Google or Facebook did

32:30

at a similar point in those company's

32:33

history. So if you just take a straight line

32:35

out, this company should be

32:37

if it can maintain this trajectory, it

32:39

should be one of the three or four most valuable companies

32:41

in the world. to ten years. Yeah.

32:43

I agree with you. I think it's really interesting. I think that

32:46

they I think they're gonna be a little more

32:48

aggressive

32:48

on the attacks like you saying they

32:50

should be banned. A very impressive executive

32:52

from Google, was former Google executive worked at

32:55

YouTube, really does know this, creator

32:57

economy, very well. Perfect choice

32:59

for them in lots of ways. How did she surprise you? I'm

33:01

curious, what was your takeaway after Tati

33:03

speaking to her about all this? She was quite

33:04

forthright about their efforts. And I

33:07

thought, she could have done Facebook thing, and she did

33:09

very canny person, I think. I

33:11

think she answered pretty much every question, and I there

33:13

were a lot of tough ones in there about the banning. And Does

33:16

she wanna

33:16

spend? It seems to me that would be

33:18

the answer.

33:18

No. They do not. That's not where they're going. It's

33:21

gonna be owned by ByteDance. I think that's

33:23

not where they're going. I think, of course, she didn't

33:25

answer the IPO question. because, of

33:27

course, she'll do very well and others. I she

33:29

she was a a little lighter on who's really

33:31

running it and who has things, but she

33:33

said they don't have control of it in just

33:35

US decisions in China. That said,

33:37

she had a better answer about the

33:39

Chinese Communist Party members.

33:42

as we talked about, you know, Apple has probably

33:44

has a few. She can't ask them that. It'd

33:46

be silly not to say they aren't there

33:48

because there's lots of people in China. I

33:50

thought she answered I think they will pass

33:53

the US rules that they need

33:55

to with adequate protections.

33:58

and I don't know what'll

33:59

happen after that. I don't I she'd seem to

34:02

push off an IPO or spin

34:04

off right

34:04

now. But let me ask you, you know

34:06

I I think you you sort of have an inside -- Mhmm. -- tracker

34:09

view into a lot of different parties

34:11

around this issue. Mhmm. Do you

34:13

think ByteDance ever gets public in its

34:15

current form without severe. Does this

34:18

happen? Did you ask about that supposedly the deal

34:20

they're working on with Biden? I've heard

34:22

rumors there.

34:23

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No. She said they're working on it, and it's

34:25

gonna come to she was very clear. She's like, they're

34:27

gonna have a deal where they're it's gonna be safe.

34:29

This the information is safe,

34:31

she said, and it will be very clear and transparent, safe. She no.

34:33

She didn't pretend there weren't issues on

34:36

TikTok, and it's the friendly.

34:36

She goes, we are trying to be

34:39

the friendly in retainment brand. And we're gonna get all kinds

34:41

of the same crap that ends up on Twitter

34:44

or Facebook we're gonna get, and we have to

34:46

move towards getting rid

34:48

of it. she very

34:50

clearly understood the worries

34:52

and was not acting

34:53

like it was stupid any of it. And, of course, that's

34:56

what she should do. So there you go. It's an impressive

34:58

woman. She was very impressive. One of

35:00

the things that she did note that a lot of

35:02

the ownership is foreign. I brought up

35:04

the issue. There's a branch of ByteDance that ByteDance

35:06

Tech that the government official sits on

35:09

the board. This is one of the

35:11

divisions, separate division of it. And she's

35:13

she made the also salient point that lot of ByteDance and and

35:16

this company is owned by US

35:18

owners.

35:18

There's all kinds of US owners of

35:22

this thing. you still believe in a ban if they're approved by the government?

35:24

Like the US government with this administration,

35:26

I find them to be very thoughtful. I had

35:28

a chance to sit down with some representatives of

35:30

our cyber command

35:32

at the code. Mhmm. I think

35:34

they're smart, thoughtful people. If they sign up

35:36

on something, I wouldn't you know, I would

35:39

just be prone to to

35:41

say, I think they've done the homework. And

35:43

also, you know, when you're

35:46

on code, on stage on

35:49

Bill Mar, and this is one of the many

35:51

things I need to work on. I'm prone to

35:53

being provocative to get attention.

35:55

You are. Yeah. I don't I Lots of people said the

35:57

same thing, quote, not just you, but I know. But what

36:00

I what I'm increasingly uncomfortable with is

36:02

the idea of using the terms band and media and

36:04

the same

36:06

Yeah. You've seen that. It's a bit of a shift. Yeah. And I think

36:08

that there is there's gotta be some

36:10

sunlight in between here. But

36:12

I still go back to the notion that

36:16

have to separate the product and the ownership, but

36:18

the ownership has a direct

36:20

influence over or the CCP has

36:22

influence over it. I just Or

36:24

could. I can't get

36:26

over how powerful this thing

36:27

is. Anyway, let's bring in our friend of pivot.

36:34

Gabriel De Benedetti is the

36:35

National Correspondent for New York

36:37

Magazine and the author of the Long Alliance,

36:39

The Imperfect Union of Joe Biden and

36:42

Barack Obama,

36:44

which looks at the often misunderstood relationship between the two presidents.

36:46

Welcome Gabriel. It's great to

36:48

be here. Thanks

36:49

for having me. So

36:50

why don't we get about the Obama

36:53

Biden relationship? Because people tend

36:55

to have their thoughts

36:56

about it. We think of it as warm and friendly. They

36:58

did all those videos, getting ice creams,

37:01

things like that. Can you talk about it? I was having a

37:03

discussion with someone about vice

37:04

presidents, including vice president and Harris. I'm

37:06

like,

37:06

they never really get along.

37:08

They're there to replace them. But what

37:10

are your

37:11

thoughts? Yeah. I think you're sort of touching

37:13

on the central tension here. The public perception

37:15

of this relationship is

37:18

a bromance. That's what people have called it for a long time. That's -- Mhmm.

37:20

-- partially true. It's definitely true as I've come

37:22

to see it that it's the closest relationship

37:24

between a president and vice president or

37:27

president and former president, you know, in

37:29

modern history. But that's a really

37:31

low bar. And the reality here is that they

37:33

are friends, which is unusual.

37:35

but it's a political relationship before anything else and it has

37:38

been for over twenty years now. You

37:40

know, these are two men whose relationship

37:42

has fluctuated wildly often by the

37:44

scenes in ways that are not

37:45

known to the public, and who see the world very

37:48

differently at times, whose perceptions

37:50

of, you know, ways that you make change

37:52

are very different. even to this day, it's

37:54

not as if Biden is calling Obama that often

37:56

for advice. They still do talk, but it's much

37:58

more like therapy than it is,

37:59

you know, what should I

38:02

do on this bill or who should I be

38:04

calling on this? So, you know, they're they're

38:06

vastly different men as we've come to see by their

38:08

times as president, and that is born

38:10

out over you know, they're they're twenty years of knowing each other now.

38:12

So for me, the reason that I

38:14

decided to write this was basically, you

38:16

know, when Biden won, so many people

38:18

were saying,

38:20

this is going to be the third term of Obama or at least the tone the coverage

38:22

was, Obama's back baby, you know, the

38:24

last four years didn't happen. As we've

38:26

seen now for two years, that's clearly

38:29

it. No. They're not at all the same. I'm just curious. And

38:31

then Scott will have a question. Is, you know,

38:33

Bush and Cheney certainly had a close relation,

38:35

but that was more like like, master and

38:37

submissive sound it felt like. Sure. So

38:38

by the end of their

38:40

time together, they really didn't have much of a

38:42

relationship. you

38:44

know, if you look back, Gaurin Clinton, obviously,

38:46

same sort of idea. They did not have a good

38:48

relationship by the end. You know, the only other

38:50

one that you can kind of compare this

38:53

to in terms of former president, not president and

38:55

VP, is the bushes. But, of course, they had

38:57

a very complicated relationship too. And, you

38:59

know, obviously, they're father and son.

39:02

So different different to start here.

39:04

Mhmm. But there's, you know, like

39:06

you alluded to at the beginning, the fact of the

39:08

Biden Obama relationship being this one that we sort

39:10

of hold up in the public consciousness is what it's

39:12

supposed to be. It's really sort of been

39:14

unfortunate for the for the Harris

39:16

vice presidency. because so many people

39:18

say, well, why aren't they so close? Well, the

39:20

expectation was never that they were gonna be best

39:22

friends until the Obama and Biden years. But we can

39:24

talk more about that. is not a

39:26

relationship that's set up to fail because

39:28

you what you have is two adversaries

39:30

that you choose your VP, not because it's

39:32

someone you're gonna get along with. You choose your VP

39:34

because it's someone who's shown the

39:36

ability. I mean, I think

39:38

I think vice president,

39:39

Harris is vice president. She got

39:41

on the debate stage because incredibly

39:44

impressive or at least her resume. But

39:46

the reason she was chosen as vice president

39:48

was she she really

39:50

went after Biden

39:52

was effective mean, doesn't the relationship just start from a position of

39:54

failure? Well, these

39:56

two certainly

39:56

didn't have a relationship that started.

39:58

It wasn't even that

39:59

it was failure from the beginning. It was, like, a nonentity

40:02

disrelationship. They they knew each other in the Senate,

40:04

obviously. But they just didn't have any

40:06

reason to really

40:08

care about each other for the longest Biden's

40:10

foreign relations committee. So it took a

40:12

really long time. And you know when when Obama essentially

40:14

decided he did want Biden

40:18

to be the one to to be his vice president. First off, Biden

40:20

didn't really wanna be considered partially,

40:22

you know, artifice, but the reality was he

40:24

didn't think he'd be a very good

40:27

too. He'd been in the Senate for thirty six years. You know, why

40:29

would he wanna for the first time in his life

40:31

be someone's second in command? He thought he could be

40:33

secretary of state, which is a much better job in

40:35

terms of autonomy, at least. But then,

40:37

you know, when it came time for them to actually

40:39

have their first conversation about this, Obama said to

40:42

Biden, I need you to just promise me that

40:44

this is the capstone of your career. That's the only

40:46

way this is gonna work. Biden's response

40:48

was, oh, not the tombstone.

40:50

The joke being, okay, this is the end of the

40:52

career, obviously. But they never

40:54

really hatched that out in a series way. And in fact, if you look at

40:56

the New York Times story from the morning after

40:58

Biden was chosen. One of the final lines says

41:00

something to the effect of, you know, it's really convenient for

41:02

Obama that he's not gonna have to worry

41:04

about Biden's political posturing because obviously Biden is

41:06

gonna be too old to run for president after their eight

41:08

years together, you know. At the time, that

41:10

was conventional wisdom. That certainly was violent

41:13

thought. Almost immediately though, their their different views

41:15

of politics, it's true that they

41:18

agreed over the long term on a

41:20

lot of policy points, but they definitely disagreed a lot over

41:22

their eight years together in terms of how to actually

41:24

achieve those goals. So, Gabriel, what's the

41:26

actual

41:27

stated relationship today? And

41:29

how how helpful can he be to

41:31

to Biden Obama in twenty

41:33

twenty four? Obama's sort of

41:35

been wandering around doing podcast

41:37

deals and being a friendly guy, but

41:39

not particularly political, I would say. Yeah. He's doing a little bit more than

41:42

he expected to be doing at this point in his

41:44

post presidency, but that's a Trump thing,

41:46

not about Yeah. This is a

41:48

reaction to the Trump years. There's a few

41:50

different answers. This is a short version

41:52

of what the relationship is like now. You

41:54

know, Obama took a long time to

41:56

get involved with Biden twenty twenty, but

41:58

he eventually did and was very useful to him.

42:00

And at this point, they're sort of talking

42:02

every few weeks or so, but it's

42:04

very informal. unlike any other call that Biden has, except for a

42:06

family member, no one else is on the call when he

42:08

does these calls. So it's very hard to get a readout of what

42:10

they are. Because they are

42:12

personal conversations. it's much more

42:14

gut checks. It's like I said someone once referred to

42:16

it to me as political therapy.

42:18

He's not saying, what should I do in Afghanistan?

42:20

What should I do with

42:22

And Obama has said that he's gonna be as useful as

42:24

as Biden wants him to be, and he he's

42:26

not offering advice unprompted.

42:28

He is trying to lift this lift his

42:30

own he's got his own projects. He's trying to be a poster. joke

42:32

or even before he became president that the

42:34

best job in the world wasn't president. It's

42:38

the x president. So, like, he's been thinking about this for a

42:40

long time. What he would do as as a

42:42

post president. But the question of twenty twenty

42:44

four is a really delicate one

42:46

for both And the midterms too, because I've assumed he he's

42:48

got more of a draw for the midterms and

42:50

is Totally. Then Biden does.

42:52

Correct? No doubt. And he's gonna be out

42:54

there. He's said that he's gonna be out

42:56

there campaigning for folks. He's endorsing

42:58

people. He's cutting ads. You know, same as

43:00

always with him in the midterm. Same thing he did in

43:02

twenty eighteen. because that this time

43:04

he's he's talked a little bit more about to

43:06

people who are, you know, trying to figure out what his

43:08

presence is gonna look like. He's talked

43:10

about more what it would look like for him to

43:12

have more of a presence when it comes to talk me about the future of the democracy issues. He talks about

43:14

this information a lot. Yes. And one thing I think

43:16

we're gonna see him do is

43:19

campaign for or cut ads for or endorse even

43:21

secretary of state candidates in the midterms, you know, all

43:23

the way down the ballot to that because those are the

43:25

people who are administering the elections in

43:27

twenty it question of whether Biden should run-in twenty four, you

43:29

know, they actually have not discussed it.

43:32

Mhmm. There's been some reporting to the contrary,

43:34

but they haven't discussed it. And one of the

43:36

reasons is Biden doesn't

43:38

really think it's a question. He thinks he's gonna run

43:40

again. Mhmm. But the more more

43:42

probably important politically

43:44

question is presidential elections are

43:46

difficult for them to talk about. Because the first time they

43:48

had to have this discussion for real was twenty

43:50

sixteen, and that's when Obama

43:52

essentially pushed Clinton to run

43:54

over by Now Biden obviously had the personal mitigating circumstances. His

43:56

son was very ill and then passed

43:58

away. But Biden saw very

44:00

clearly that Obama also had made a political

44:02

calculus, which

44:04

he did. Yeah. Which was I don't think that Biden is the right person to succeed

44:06

me in this moment. He didn't he didn't think he

44:08

was the future of the party

44:10

or of the country. then in twenty twenty, took

44:12

a really long time for Obama to get onboard

44:14

with Biden as well. And at one point, they had

44:16

a conversation. And Obama's version of

44:18

dissuading Biden in twenty twenty was essentially to

44:20

say, I mean, this is late twenty eighteen. He said, you

44:22

know, Joe, you really don't have to do this.

44:25

And Biden essentially said to him, sorry, Trump's

44:27

the president. I think I have a good chance to get a

44:29

good chance to get a good job. Well, I'm

44:31

bad calculation by Obama in my sentiment.

44:33

And, of course, Obama at this time was

44:35

talking to every other person on earth who wanted

44:37

to run for president because he had said that he was

44:40

willing to. So, you know, Biden took a lot of this stuff pretty personally

44:42

even though he tried really hard not

44:44

to. Right. So which is all a

44:46

long way of saying, it's not shouldn't be

44:48

that surprise. they're not talking about

44:50

twenty twenty four. Because if you're

44:52

Biden, you know, the public image might be that

44:54

they're best friends and they're advising each other on

44:56

everything. No. I

44:58

but clearly not. Right? It's not as if he would go to Obama

45:00

as a as a first sort of call for should I

45:02

be doing this again? Yeah. As someone who

45:03

is a Beto fan, Scott, what do you

45:06

think about

45:07

this? So I'm curious, Gabriel, whenever you

45:09

really get to know a relationship between

45:11

two presidents, it's gonna yield insight about

45:13

the individual presidents.

45:16

Is there one or two things you can tell us about Obama

45:18

or president Biden that would

45:20

surprise us or that surprise you?

45:23

Sure. I

45:23

think one of the things about Biden that has

45:25

surprised me is he

45:27

is a lot like the public image

45:29

that he has tried to portray for himself. And what

45:31

I mean by that is he is

45:33

someone who genuinely does do things

45:36

like read Irish poetry and

45:38

think of himself in these historical

45:40

terms at this point. And it took him a really long time to

45:42

do that. he's someone who is and

45:44

this is a related point. Very self conscious, thinks, you know, he's been

45:47

very wary of

45:50

how other people view him his whole career and has been, in fact,

45:52

you know, very self conscious about

45:54

not having an ivy league education for for one

45:56

thing. He talks about that all the time

45:59

behind the scenes still. But at the same time, you

46:02

know, now he has been thinking a lot about

46:04

what am I in history. He doesn't like to say that out

46:06

loud because he understands how

46:08

it sounds. but that is really how he how he I

46:10

think people might not, because

46:12

of the public perception of how his

46:14

post presidency has been, people

46:17

might not understand this, but I think he

46:19

has been changing a lot in his

46:21

post presidency as he thinks about

46:23

what he represented. he obviously still

46:26

thinks that he was a very successful

46:28

president, but I think that he now sees

46:30

himself on this continuum of

46:32

history much more precariously

46:34

than he did before because, of course, the

46:36

Trump experience has, you know, thrown into

46:38

some serious questions where what the, you

46:40

know, what the Obama's like ultimately be especially

46:43

if Trump comes back, but Obama remains this sort of,

46:45

like, singularly self confident figure

46:47

in American politics. And that really comes

46:49

through even as

46:52

they discussed even in their, you know, private conversations over the course of their

46:54

relationship. And even in the earliest days,

46:56

you know, I tell the story in the book, but the

46:58

first time they

47:00

ever met, one on one or ever sat down was when Obama

47:02

wanted to join the foreign relations committee as a brand

47:04

new senator, ninety ninth in seniority.

47:06

Biden invites him over to his office and

47:08

essentially says,

47:10

sure. Yeah. you know, come on over. We'll talk. And, obviously, Biden's gonna

47:12

let him on the committee because he could see that he's a

47:14

rising star even if he's not so sure about him. And

47:16

at the end of this quick conversation,

47:18

Biden says, gotta go to Wilmington. You

47:20

gotta go to Chicago, but this is good. Let's

47:22

let's sit down and have a proper dinner sometime

47:24

we get to know each other. And

47:26

Biden says, know, we can just get cheap

47:28

Italian place here on Capitol Hill. It'll

47:30

be great. And Obama and Biden told the

47:32

version of the story, one of his books, but he didn't

47:35

tell the whole story. Obama sort of rears back up and says, wait a

47:37

minute. You know, what do you mean cheap Italian plates? We

47:39

can go somewhere nice. I can afford it. Because

47:42

Obama is of course thinking, well, for one

47:44

thing, Obama has

47:46

money for for some in his life because the random house is gonna reprint his But

47:48

he's also thinking who is this old school

47:50

guy, this older white senator who thinks

47:52

he can talk down to me and thinks I need to,

47:56

you know, eat at some cheap place. And he says, I can afford

47:58

it. And Biden meanwhile has taken it back then

48:00

and says, well, who does this guy think he

48:02

is? I can't afford it. You know, I'm the

48:04

poorest senator. Did they walk away

48:06

from that first meeting? Both

48:08

thinking, this other guy is so

48:10

presumptuous. Yeah. And they, of course, didn't didn't

48:12

set that dinner date. And it took them a long time to

48:14

really truly understand each Yeah. He

48:16

didn't mean it that way. Of course not. No.

48:18

Anyone know.

48:18

And and a woman is certainly self

48:20

confident, and I don't mean that in a

48:22

positive way. having interviewed him several times. It's

48:24

one of his failings, I think, in a lot of

48:27

ways. So you've also written about Florida's governor's

48:29

race. How will the

48:31

hurricane end response affect that race, especially DeSantis has seen us working with

48:33

Biden on the recovery. He's been as

48:36

complimentary as he can be. Yeah.

48:38

Yeah. Well,

48:38

I think that, you know,

48:40

it's obviously hard to figure out what the political end of this is going to

48:43

be. Usually, governors who

48:45

govern through disasters see some

48:47

political upside for that especially when they work with

48:50

the president for they have

48:52

to. It doesn't always work that way. You know, Charlie

48:54

Chris knows well that in you know, he was Republican

48:56

governor back back in the day,

48:58

and he hugged Obama who when Obama came

49:00

down to Florida to talk

49:03

about economic relief, and that was, of course, the end of Charlie Chris'

49:05

career as a Republican. So he understands well

49:07

that there is some danger here. But, you

49:09

know, DeSantis doesn't seem to be

49:11

getting a lot of blowback in terms of working with the federal

49:14

government. Though, of course, you know, we would I think

49:16

a lot remains to be seen in terms of what

49:18

the pure level of

49:20

devastation is. and, you know, what the amount of federal help is needed

49:22

because he has, of course, not loved these

49:24

headlines obviously about how he had

49:26

voted against federal

49:28

aid in circumstances. Too bad. That's what he did. Alright. So you

49:30

think Biden's in in

49:32

your view, Biden is running again? My

49:34

view is that in Biden's view, Biden

49:36

is running. Yeah. I think a lot

49:38

could change, and I think that people sort of

49:40

underestimate when he says, you know, my

49:42

expectation is that I'm gonna run again,

49:44

except I know that history

49:46

can intervene. you know, he is a man

49:48

who knows a lot about tragedy and a lot about

49:50

mortality and has thought, thinks about that all

49:52

the time. And so I genuinely think that,

49:54

you know, things could change. His health could take a turn. His

49:56

family could go against it. But right now, he's

49:58

certainly operating as if it's a go. And by

49:59

the way, In twenty

50:02

twenty, he knew that it was a go long before he said it

50:04

publicly. Even though he takes forever to make these

50:06

decisions, his staff had to tell him, stop

50:08

talking about this

50:10

so openly. because you're going to trigger the FEC

50:12

rules, and we're gonna have to file your candidacy

50:14

-- Yeah. -- you know, according to the laws. And the same

50:16

thing has happened now. He knows that

50:18

he cannot say, I'm running. He just has to say, I'm mixed feelings. No. He's a hundred

50:20

percent. And by the way,

50:21

much more successful legislatively. I mean,

50:23

obviously, Obamacare

50:24

was very important, but if

50:27

you weigh them one to one, I

50:29

think

50:29

Biden has set the more successful presidency at this

50:31

point. And that's a big part of their relationship. These are the

50:34

scenes. You can imagine they talk about that. Yeah.

50:36

But Obama has more style, apparently. I

50:38

like dark Brandon. I think that's also part of

50:40

him. I don't know. You you and Joe

50:42

both? Yeah. But he's like

50:44

that. I He's like that. I I suspect you guys are genuine.

50:46

Anyway, the

50:46

book is the long alliance, the

50:49

imperfect union of Joe Biden

50:51

and Barack Obama fascinating. it's

50:53

gonna be really interesting. Gabriel De

50:55

Benedetti, thank you so

50:57

much. Thanks, Gabriel. Thank

50:58

you both. Alright. So I think we were, like, Biden, Obama.

51:00

Which one would be Biden? Which one would

51:02

be Obama? You're Obama. I'm

51:04

Obama. I'm shocked. I was shocked that

51:07

you didn't I for the first time, I

51:09

I was learning more about you. I would have thought

51:11

you would you like Obama less than I would have thought. A lot

51:13

less. Yeah. It's not interesting.

51:14

And what? Yeah. I've said Can

51:17

you say more? What is it that you think

51:20

he deserves more scrutiny around? Howard

51:22

Bauchner: The

51:22

success of legislation, I think he

51:25

-- Mhmm. -- a lot style, I think his

51:27

post presidency compared to, like, a Jimmy Carter. He

51:28

has so much power. And he's sort

51:31

of -- Yeah. -- hanging out

51:32

with celebrities. Like, right? He's

51:35

on David Gaffon's boat. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And that's kind of disappointing. And

51:36

I have to say when I interviewed him, he

51:39

didn't like pushback and Biden,

51:41

never that way. comfortable

51:44

with pushback, very comfortable with

51:47

debate. And just

51:49

a more genuine I

51:51

think he doesn't get the credit he gets. That's why I backed

51:53

him way

51:53

back when. I was like, this guy can

51:55

win one, and

51:56

this guy can get things done. And

51:58

I do think that's the case.

51:59

I think making fun of his age. I get it. I get it. And the bomb was

52:02

handsome to all smooth.

52:07

But he reminding me a lot of tech people I covered.

52:09

I

52:09

know it sounds crazy, but -- Oh, that hurts. -- I was

52:11

like -- That hurts. Yeah. Well, I feel good

52:13

about my hero. Don't say that.

52:15

I I

52:16

listen. Historically, such an

52:18

important, historically. I just think

52:21

when the assessments come, I I

52:23

think Biden has had a

52:25

more successful presidency in thus

52:27

far under very difficult

52:30

circumstances. Mhmm. And

52:31

Obama could have done a lot more.

52:33

That's my feeling. I was not as big a fan

52:35

of him as others.

52:38

interesting. Yeah. But I get I get the appeal. I

52:40

get the I'm gonna get, like, strafed, but I've said this

52:42

before. I don't care. I think Biden has been a

52:44

very successful president. under

52:45

it it tear like, listen.

52:47

He's got crazy crazy pants down in Florida

52:49

yelling them every crazy stuff all the time.

52:51

And he's handling with a lot of decorum

52:53

including the the attack on the capital. He could he

52:56

there's lots of ways he could've I always look at

52:58

people's choices. Anyway, but I'm I hope

53:00

Obama's enjoying his

53:02

yacht going. Alright. Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for and

53:05

fails.

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podcasts.

55:10

Okay, Scott. Let's hear some wins and fails. I'm gonna

55:12

go first that that Bella

55:15

Hadid spray on dress? Loved it.

55:17

Loved it. Yeah. Oh, fast. I didn't

55:19

know where it was

55:21

going. And I was like, what is happening here? And then

55:23

when the person the my favorite part was the person

55:25

who then cut it after they sprayed

55:28

it on, and -- Mhmm. -- and

55:30

then it was a dress. And, of course, like, someone said, I look like a bag of cats if you

55:32

put that on me. But but

55:34

it was it was I

55:37

loved it. It was so techie and interesting. Yeah. It

55:39

was cool. Loved it. It was it it made

55:41

me like clothes. The Internet made

55:43

like, oh, here we are. We're making some clothes, and

55:45

I thought that was kinda cool. don't know

55:47

if that

55:47

was my that was my win.

55:50

You go for your win, and I'll think of a

55:51

fail.

55:52

Well, you foreshadowed my win. My win

55:54

is James Earl Carter Junior, better known

55:56

as president Carter who turned ninety eight this past week?

55:58

Such a good man. This is someone

56:00

who served his country after

56:02

graduating from the naval academy.

56:05

served on several submarines. And then after the death

56:07

of his father, took over a failing peanut farm

56:09

and turned it into

56:11

a thriving business. He, as president, he was

56:13

a dark course or as a candidate, he was a dark course. He started the

56:15

Department of Education, the Department of

56:18

Energy, was critical and saw

56:19

two talks. obviously had to deal

56:22

with stagflation. It was kinda dealt a bad hand

56:24

and then the October surprise that failed

56:26

mission to rescue the

56:28

hostages and Iran. he will go

56:30

down or has gone down as an average to less

56:32

than average successful president, but he

56:34

is by far the most

56:36

successful ex president we've

56:38

ever had. The moment he left office, he began building via

56:40

habitat for humanity. And at the

56:42

age of ninety eight, has been married to his wife

56:44

for Rosland for seventy six

56:48

years. I just don't fantastic. Yeah. I don't

56:50

I think you can't underestimate how

56:54

many wonderful Americans, America produces,

56:58

and this is one of them. And I like the fact that

56:59

he's he's he's been given the

57:02

gift of so much

57:04

praise and what I call overdue

57:06

recognition. I love the fact that he's gotten to

57:08

share his life with the same person for three

57:10

quarters of a century. I think he's a

57:12

fantastic role model for

57:14

young man. talk

57:14

about him. Great post presidency. Now that guy has lots

57:16

of troubles as president and it's hard to

57:18

the the the Reagan train was charming

57:20

and fantastic and I

57:23

voted for again. I mean, the first time

57:25

over Jimmy Carter.

57:26

And I have to

57:28

say, this guy has shown us the way

57:30

to behave as a as a next president. I

57:32

think has had

57:33

the most stellar. I mean, it's cute with George Bush painting, but

57:35

honestly and this guy has

57:38

done stuff.

57:38

has

57:40

done stuff and used his podium in a way

57:42

that is super

57:43

moving and effective. I

57:45

agree with you.

57:46

agreed. So

57:48

my fail is the distinctive

57:52

weddings or the pivot to the metaverse. I think it's

57:54

important that we

57:56

remember that Mehta continues to be a menace to our

57:58

society and not take responsibility this

58:00

week. In the UK, a

58:02

coroner found that harmful online

58:04

content likely to have

58:06

contributed to Mollie

58:08

Russell, a fourteen year old to her death,

58:10

and he put in quotes, and this

58:12

is unusual for a coroner who They

58:14

try to be very careful whenever they

58:16

stray outside of trying to to lay

58:19

responsibility around the death of

58:21

somebody. He said that harmful

58:24

online content likely to have contributed to

58:26

Molly's death in a more a

58:28

more than minimal way. Mhmm. And the

58:30

father has decided to sue the company

58:33

and saying basically saying that

58:36

they're

58:36

monetizing misery. And Monetizing

58:39

misery. What a

58:42

line? Right. You know, there's so much there's this cultural and so

58:44

much attention around this

58:46

notion that has no evidence.

58:48

There's no factual basis.

58:51

someone who's the father of kids who

58:53

spent the majority of their school age years at a

58:55

school in Florida as someone who served on the board

58:57

of their kids school. I have never seen any

58:59

evidence nor is there any peer reviewed evidence that

59:02

teachers are institutionally or systemically

59:04

trying to pull the gay

59:06

or the heterosexual tendencies of children

59:08

out of them. In school. I have never

59:10

seen that. Mhmm. And I think it's a

59:12

culture war meant

59:14

to rouse people, play to

59:16

their worst instincts, but something that is true.

59:19

is

59:19

that when algorithms from

59:22

meta, when a kid

59:23

who is shows no signs

59:25

of mental illness, when a kid who

59:27

was thriving at school, starts getting bullied

59:29

online and starts contemplating suicide and then begins

59:31

the algorithms recognize this

59:33

and no joke

59:36

META and

59:37

Pinterest also

59:38

begin serving her images

59:40

of nooses, pills, and

59:44

razors. So what these organizations are doing, and there's proof

59:46

here, is they're pulling out of girls

59:50

to suicide. suicide To

59:52

normalize

59:53

suicide? Mhmm. He

59:58

we speak so

59:59

much we speak so much about about

1:00:02

NASDAQ

1:00:02

and all this bullshit. Like, what's

1:00:04

the point?

1:00:07

Like, what's the

1:00:09

point of any of this?

1:00:13

Scott. I know how you feel.

1:00:15

I I it's you know,

1:00:17

you have sons. I have a daughter. I

1:00:19

think about it all the time.

1:00:20

all the time now, you know, as

1:00:22

she goes up. And I think your feelings about

1:00:25

it should be, like most parents are

1:00:27

very emotional and it acquire

1:00:29

that level of emotion, you know, what your

1:00:32

the feelings you're

1:00:33

having because it really does matter. And I

1:00:35

think at some point, you

1:00:37

know, these companies have gotta understand. They're

1:00:40

not completely to blame. Certainly, there's

1:00:42

all kinds of societal pressures on girls

1:00:44

and women and things like that. But

1:00:46

this is taken it to a

1:00:48

level that's really very clearly

1:00:50

problematic. And I'm I this this case in

1:00:52

Britain was really interesting. I think it should be more

1:00:54

like it. Let's have it out

1:00:55

in court is how you do it. Let's make the bastards pay. Yeah. And

1:00:57

what I wanna say is

1:00:59

my emotion and my

1:01:00

thoughts and prayers don't mean Fagal.

1:01:03

I hope people google molly

1:01:06

Russell and and get involved

1:01:08

and advocate for holding

1:01:10

these companies

1:01:12

responsible. These are problems that can be fixed. There is no way

1:01:14

the brightest minds in the world couldn't figure

1:01:16

out that this was a young

1:01:18

girl and couldn't figure out that she

1:01:22

was beginning to become comfortable with suicidal content. They

1:01:24

could have figured that out, and they could have

1:01:26

intervened. If you have if you have a kid

1:01:28

in any organization that starts talking

1:01:30

about suicide, Whether

1:01:32

it's a mass shooter and they start drawing images, people

1:01:34

intervene. And these companies absolutely

1:01:36

have the technology and ability

1:01:38

to intervene. Unfortunately, it would reduce

1:01:41

their profits. It would be expensive. And I don't

1:01:43

doubt it would be hard. Mhmm. It

1:01:45

is overdue. Exxon lied to us.

1:01:48

RGR lied to us. Mhmm. The

1:01:50

sacklers lied to us. and the people in

1:01:52

matter are lying to to us.

1:01:54

We we should absolutely hold these firms

1:01:56

accountable. I I think what you

1:01:56

have to do is see it in court. Let's

1:01:58

see it

1:01:59

in court. Let's see it. You know, if they'd say no, let's let's have

1:02:02

a little court time to to have some

1:02:04

proof and go through it. But it should

1:02:06

completely be scrutinized, and I

1:02:08

think it's an important

1:02:10

point you're making here completely. My

1:02:12

fail III don't know if it's a fail

1:02:14

yet, but I I do think we should talk about it on Thursdays.

1:02:16

The Supreme Court is taking up two

1:02:18

cases. around Section two thirty.

1:02:21

They involve terrorist content, but it

1:02:23

could challenge broad immunities as this

1:02:25

happened before. But it's the first time

1:02:27

it's gone to the Supreme Court. much of this

1:02:28

stuff is going to be going to the Supreme Court, by the way, and a lot of

1:02:30

it is, a lot of these cases because it's about

1:02:32

our society as a whole, which is worrisome

1:02:35

given this particular Supreme Court. but

1:02:37

they're decide whether social media companies can be sued

1:02:40

for hosting and recommending terrorist

1:02:41

content. Even though it's not the same, it's

1:02:43

not that different, it's

1:02:46

similar. Right? what can they be sued for. And so we'll see where that

1:02:48

goes. I am worried about this

1:02:50

particular Supreme Court, but I think it might

1:02:52

free them up even more, and we'll get in

1:02:54

Citizens United

1:02:56

kinda thing, you know, in the interests of free speech

1:02:58

kind

1:02:58

of thing. So it's a very

1:03:00

complex

1:03:00

case, but we absolutely have

1:03:03

to be thinking harder about

1:03:05

how we manage these

1:03:07

very important communications things. And,

1:03:10

Scott, it's very appropriate for you to be

1:03:12

upset by

1:03:14

that. There

1:03:14

you go. There you go. Let's go. Polaris three.

1:03:18

She's three. She's three.

1:03:20

She's three. How's all

1:03:23

done? Oh, good. Jolly is ever eating everything in sight.

1:03:26

Just fantastic. He's fantastic.

1:03:28

He's really great. They're all great. Alex

1:03:32

is great. He approved the shoes I

1:03:33

was wearing recently, so that was a big thing. And

1:03:35

he's being very sweet, but it's because he's got

1:03:37

a nice girlfriend, I think. He's he's

1:03:39

in a better mood.

1:03:40

And Louie's coming down this weekend, and

1:03:43

I'm so excited to see him. We're gonna have

1:03:45

we're going Apple picking. We're such a like, we're

1:03:47

such a straight family. It's crazy. So,

1:03:49

yeah, we're picking apples. I'm gonna make some applesauce

1:03:51

for you. We'll send it to in Britain. Really, we

1:03:53

won't, but still I really am very touched by the

1:03:55

way you feel about this. Anyway, we

1:03:58

wanna hear from you. Send us your

1:03:59

questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

1:04:02

Go to n y mag dot com

1:04:04

slash pivot. to submit

1:04:04

a question for the show or call 85551

1:04:06

pivot. Scott,

1:04:07

that's the show. We'll be back on

1:04:09

Friday for more. There's always gonna be plenty to

1:04:11

talk about maybe even a settlement

1:04:13

like we talk about with the email. Who knows?

1:04:15

Please read us out. Today's show is

1:04:17

produced by Lara Newman, Evan Angle, and Taylor

1:04:19

Griffin, Ernie and her dot engine into

1:04:21

this episode. Thanks also Drew Bros and

1:04:23

Neil Saverio. Make sure you show where every listen to podcasts. Thanks

1:04:25

for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine

1:04:27

and Box Media. We'll

1:04:30

be back later this week for another breakdown

1:04:32

of all things tech and business. Apple

1:04:36

sauce.