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or maybe you just fantasize about canceling plans

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creating one excuse after. You're fantasizing about

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me? No, no, no, never.

0:16

You're fantasizing about me, again, again?

0:19

Not once, not once. I

0:21

get it, I get it, I get it. I'm sorry,

0:23

go ahead. All right, get off my

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ad right now. All right, canceling plans,

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creating one excuse after another, why you

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analytics to product-led growth. That's

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pendo.io/pivot to learn more. Hi

1:45

everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine

1:47

and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara

1:49

Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. I

1:51

don't know what to say. We have to talk about

1:53

Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez at the White House State

1:55

Dinner for Japan's Prime Minister. Wait, hold on. She

1:57

wore this to the White House? That outfit she

1:59

wore. I think she looked great. I loved it.

2:01

I liked that she did it. I have to say I

2:03

know everyone's trashing her for it and Saying she belongs at

2:06

Mar-a-Lago, but I just love that she did

2:08

it. He looked thrilled. I'm

2:10

liking this couple. There's a couple

2:12

reasons I like her outfit. Yeah. Oh,

2:16

god! I walked right into that. You

2:18

didn't even get it. I walked literally

2:21

in disoccure. I was like, what? And then

2:23

I'm like, oh my god, he literally made a boob

2:25

joke right in front of me and I didn't hear it. He

2:28

looks like an 18-year-old

2:31

who went

2:34

to prom with the hottest girl who lost a

2:36

bed and has to go to prom with him.

2:38

I mean, look how happy he looks. And

2:41

by the way, I just want to say regarding

2:43

his midlife crisis, I am so here for it.

2:45

I am too. I just think it's fantastic. I

2:47

think the guy is literally- People wanted me to

2:49

jump on it. I couldn't. I was like,

2:52

what is wrong with that? If loving her

2:54

is wrong, I don't want to be right. That's

2:56

what I have to say. All I got to say is,

2:59

sometimes divorce is a good thing. Like,

3:02

Bo Cepesos and Mackenzie Scott get to be

3:04

the people they want to be. She gets

3:06

to give away billions of dollars anonymously. He

3:08

gets to buy a yellow, canary yellow

3:12

Corvette teetop and crash it into

3:14

a hair transplant clinic. I mean,

3:16

this guy is literally like a

3:19

midlife bomb detonating over and over and over. But

3:21

it's great. It's great content. It's amazing. I mean,

3:23

it brought a little Trump back to the White

3:26

House. Good for him. It did bring a little

3:28

Trump back to the White House. Good for him

3:30

and good for them. And by the way, I

3:33

have met both her

3:36

first two husbands. The football

3:38

player, I forgot his name.

3:40

Is it Tony? What's his name? He's

3:42

this big, handsome, articulate, charming

3:44

guy. I mean, he's just like

3:47

the most impressive man. Patrick Lysol.

3:50

Fantastic. Like a total

3:52

fucking baller. Tall, handsome,

3:55

smart. I mean, okay.

3:58

She must be literally the most... captivating

4:00

woman in the world. I

4:02

don't know. I don't know. Anyway, I liked it. Oh

4:04

my God. All the haters just leave

4:06

them alone. Good for them. So what? It's

4:08

not inappropriate for the white. I was thinking the Trumps

4:11

were there with like blood trees. Come on.

4:13

Like it doesn't bring it down. It was funny. It was

4:15

fun. It was fun. Leave

4:18

them alone. Like I'm alone. Look,

4:20

you do. I'm being mean to them. I'll cry. I'll

4:23

do that crying thing. He's the world's richest man. He gets to be...

4:25

Good for... Jeff, you do Jeff. That was

4:28

quite a list of people there. Did you see the

4:30

list? I

4:32

didn't see the list. I'm totally sequestered right now. I

4:34

have no insight into it. No. First

4:36

time ever I looked at a list, but it looked like

4:38

a fantastic get together. And you know, we're cycling

4:41

up to Japan because

4:43

of China. Obviously we're trying to create better

4:45

relations, but this is who was there. It

4:47

was Robert De Niro there with his new

4:49

wife who he just had a baby with.

4:51

He looked so sexy. He

4:53

was like dead sexy, by the way. He looked when he

4:55

walked in. He was very handsome. It was like

4:57

a very sexy dinner. And

4:59

then they had Chrissy Yamaguchi who looked

5:01

fantastic and looked like she was having

5:04

a great time. She the ice skater?

5:06

Yes, she is. Yeah. Yeah.

5:08

But she does not. Tim Cook was there with Lisa Jackson

5:11

who works at Apple and a range

5:13

of things. Jamie

5:15

Dimon was there. I want to meet Tim's partner.

5:17

I want to know... I'm sorry. I

5:20

want to know who Tim's talking. He doesn't have... I don't

5:22

know about that. I don't think he does. He's so

5:24

big and handsome. The rich. I agree.

5:26

I think he dates. I don't think... Yeah,

5:29

okay. All right. In any

5:31

case, I want to... I love how we're not allowed to talk

5:33

about Tim Cook as if he's a saint. The pain

5:35

from fate of gayness. He's a

5:37

big handsome man. Tim, you're

5:39

not getting any younger. Okay. God

5:42

is here for you. By the way, I've got a great pick up line for him.

5:44

I would like to move along. Go ahead. Go ahead.

5:47

He should say to any hot young man he

5:49

meets, there's only going to

5:51

be seven planets after you see what I do to

5:53

Uranus. Oh, no. That

5:55

is such a... I hope all the gays come after you

5:57

for that and I'm not going to defend you in any

5:59

way. I know I've

6:02

ordered some. Always job where ads

6:04

are have as hundreds. He's.

6:06

Not saying outside. Whenever a copy the

6:08

big handsome game and get out there,

6:10

I'm. Continuing run the manual the scene

6:13

Bathroom Japan for people who don't know

6:15

I did it did interview with from

6:17

recently sign saying they're from isn't just

6:19

had those negotiations. Over the automakers seen

6:22

the say or oh yeah that the smart

6:24

union guy more union guy he would say

6:26

I'd imagine such. A cool that type of.

6:28

I dug em off and by certain

6:30

has looked fantastic. I like that. I

6:32

like when they just. An American woman.

6:35

I'd like when these are not are the things I think we

6:37

look good as the country. As a White House has

6:39

meant to be hungry or nicer than you

6:41

could pull this off by got the fab

6:43

padded in and so. You. Got to

6:45

come out. Since then you got this total like

6:48

whoa crowd. My name is to do a fundraiser

6:50

for the president and I will wear Lauren Sanchez

6:52

is alpha. Oh they did. We don't

6:54

want you back and address remember we got you. Added the

6:56

dress number. With. Him, for

6:58

that absurdity of penis is. Great

7:01

and terrible in that dress. You

7:03

in the by the way with. I have more legs

7:06

and a bucket of vida. Y was a

7:08

Roman I would have an amazing legs, all

7:10

substance. In

7:12

my head sets really nice. Yellen

7:16

as their sin. Ill since anywhere and plan as it

7:18

looks, I'd love a dinner. I covered them As a

7:20

young reporter for the was imposed. I used to have

7:22

a balding those and night as I'd like to go

7:24

to when we should go to months and that. Will.

7:26

Never get bogged down for it. You gotta work

7:29

on add all the same you keep talking about

7:31

the courses. you do it army yeah I see

7:33

get an invitation. Went to school would like to

7:35

do her dance. With center do a

7:37

lot or country get new businesses. If

7:39

it's a state dinner, it's a state

7:42

dinner with voluntary. We had ordered Prime Minister's

7:44

but I I'm going to a party tonight

7:46

at the Us ambassador his house here and

7:48

eat him a sustainable fashion which I could

7:50

give a shit about that it was in

7:52

sustains us and no rhyme or consumption culture

7:54

folks for any. We got lucky. Guess is a

7:56

open Ai is going on the offensive. As a company.

7:58

Tackles numerous Last and Paramount's possible merger

8:01

with Sky is is getting a little

8:03

messy. Posts are friend of his it

8:05

is Washington Post reporter Isaac are in

8:07

stores and who has a new book?

8:09

Finish what we started the mega movements

8:11

ground war to end democracy the to

8:13

follow our last one with that would

8:15

rip recruit, spend yet and never get

8:17

the like that interviewed by the way.

8:19

But first David Chang, some on the

8:22

suit who finds itself in the middle

8:24

essentially crunch drama muscle go his trademark

8:26

chile crunch, spicy oily Christie parliament popular

8:28

in Asian countries. After sending cease. And

8:30

desist Letters to manufacturers. Using the name

8:32

the brand has been accused of trademark and

8:34

generic cultural products. Some critics it's imperative to

8:36

move to trade marking catch up and suggested

8:38

it's mina is monopoly behavior a company in

8:40

Denver previously on the trademark and send a

8:43

cease and desist. Letter to Mama Soco who

8:45

it's and said work to purchase a

8:47

trademark for itself. It's got your branding

8:49

person, What? they actually crunch. I think

8:51

silicone stuff all over the place at

8:53

Mean Asia. and also any time you

8:55

are an Asian market there's a million

8:58

silly financing. This seems crazy observed for

9:00

for muscle to and David Chang to

9:02

do. he looks like an asshole. Were

9:04

your thoughts. On like this marketing

9:06

thing boy inside the majority about

9:08

I just started out as good

9:10

idea of the matters. Our ability

9:13

to protect Ip is really important.

9:15

whether it's someone's likeness, whether it's

9:17

said that panzer the chemical context

9:19

of the pharmaceutical, America's version and

9:22

our economy relies on what you

9:24

would loosely called intellectual property protection

9:26

ability to legally protected This has

9:28

gone crazy. This reminds me of

9:30

when Paris Hilton side a trademark

9:33

Deaths Ha L Re. Are

9:35

that high end of a site and someone said

9:37

the know. You. Can't trade Martha.

9:39

So the reason why we have

9:41

thoughtful judges and law in and

9:43

and cases is that we can

9:45

say are right, There is a

9:47

line here because when you have

9:50

is it's been weaponized in the

9:52

sunsets. These especially big companies are

9:54

well resourced, Company sends cease and

9:56

desist letters to everyone for anything

9:58

that smells of anything remotely. The

10:00

you could have the means of suppressing competition

10:02

and also the use it as a means

10:04

of trying to get on earn pr. For

10:07

example, Amazon will fall apart and. For.

10:09

A not only a floating warehouse

10:12

which is probably. Physically.

10:16

Impossible. For the next couple centuries

10:18

they will file a patent for

10:20

a. Projectile. Descent

10:22

sealed up there float and warehouse and

10:24

the reason they do with it's is

10:27

they know the reporters at Forbes and

10:29

other business magazines, troll patent filings and

10:31

and right about them. So Ip Protection

10:33

has taken on all the stuff for

10:36

nuance including intimidation including well resourced monopolies

10:38

de casa because if you get a

10:40

cease and desist letter in your small

10:42

company you're sort of inclined to say

10:45

and my really gonna take on this

10:47

well resourced company or my just gonna

10:49

find another name but this is. An

10:51

example of a gone Haywire. These are

10:53

generic terms and I believe the court

10:55

will say sorry this term has become

10:58

generic. You can't own it. I.

11:00

Think that this is exactly what each other as

11:02

in the people he said of losing their minds

11:04

on on on the internet. Here it's really important

11:06

with his his done here they can. I agree

11:08

with you like it did, this is it's it.

11:10

What do you think it's gonna end up. It'll

11:13

be dismissed. Dismiss sounding, he won't

11:15

be able to sit. Cease.

11:17

And desist. Now it's. A

11:19

guy and it'll be the this will be

11:21

in as you call illegal harassment or say

11:23

you have no domain over the name and

11:25

and you should pay back the legal fees

11:27

to the people were you're creating new know.

11:31

whatever, whatever you call it a superfluous or

11:33

whatever glitter an issue around the trademark office

11:35

to play city. He doesn't the

11:37

trademark. great. The. Onset World.

11:39

But but if it's trademark about

11:41

right there are like okay.the trademarks.

11:44

And all. right? Side to I

11:46

disowned by I don't know. Ill

11:49

I like. This is a this

11:51

is for Ip lawyers bud your

11:53

ability to maintain your ability to

11:55

and to encourage people to make

11:58

the requisite investments in developing. Important.

12:01

Differentiate an intellectual property is really

12:03

important to provide up production at

12:05

the same time, you have to

12:07

ensure that does a competitive marketplace

12:09

where people who are trying to

12:11

develop their own ip don't bump

12:13

into ip that's been inflated beyond

12:15

reasonable protection. Night. Or and

12:17

moving on to more controversial subject abortion decision

12:20

in Arizona. the highest court in the state

12:22

upheld the eighteenth Sixty Four. I'm not getting

12:24

folks eighteen, Sixty Four. The Lincoln Was President

12:26

law that would ban abortion at conception with

12:28

no exceptions for rape or incest or the

12:31

doctors at risk for two to five years

12:33

in prison for providing abortions. The ruling is

12:35

on hold for fourteen days being sent back

12:37

to lower court. The here additional arguments Voters

12:40

that overturn the ban and they probably well

12:42

if abortion rights good server the get the

12:44

message on the ballot and they probably can.

12:46

It looks like they're going to ah

12:48

what a friggin messier carry like is

12:50

losing our mind because you've courses for

12:53

this and now she's against as soon

12:55

as he's running for senator against Ribbon

12:57

Diego in in in Arizona Ah a

12:59

bad a Donald Trump received claim that

13:01

he wouldn't sign of several bore Sudan

13:03

is it comes to a I bet

13:06

he does sign it and kill lot

13:08

he's lying about. That said on of

13:10

it'll ever get to his death getting.

13:12

Because and Fc becomes president all a lot

13:14

of as. But I don't know what

13:16

to say. I mean obviously fodder

13:18

for jokes and everything else but

13:20

this is not. This was not

13:22

like I don't the Republicans good

13:24

shooting themselves in their tiny little

13:26

seed. Yard or In and

13:29

a sign for I was gonna happy to see this

13:31

as a arm. Are more a

13:33

dead Or I was worried that people with

13:35

say tides and sent back to the states

13:37

people who want to terminate a pregnancy can.

13:40

Actually I was worried that people are going

13:42

to think oh this isn't that big a

13:44

deal and I think. A. Loss

13:46

I'd does bring home in Arizona

13:48

I think is now technically a

13:50

swing state, that Jesus's people are

13:52

fucking insane and this has gone

13:54

way too far. And either I

13:56

think it's I think this essentially

13:58

what this. We

14:00

have done is basically

14:02

inaugurated. Senator Guy.

14:05

I guess I just think they're gonna go.

14:07

I think they're gonna have a field day

14:09

with carry late as so I did. This

14:11

is a reminder. That. These laws

14:13

are important. And that it did.

14:15

This isn't a group of people looking to

14:17

moderated around a thoughtful discussion around. it's they're

14:20

looking for the handmade sale. And.

14:22

This is a minute so I

14:24

saw this. And it's a

14:26

dangerous game to play. But I was sort of

14:28

happy because I thought that the public in Arizona

14:30

need to see just how fucking crazy does people

14:33

are. They going to up you know

14:35

when they were saying oh now they got

14:37

that one. Is it Know they want the

14:39

whole saying you don't understand the one it

14:41

everywhere. They don't want it In some states

14:43

they want New York not to be able

14:45

to have abortions. I want nobody's worsens even

14:47

in cases of rape or incest. Or and

14:49

it's you know, this isn't it is. and

14:52

I and Trump totally missed the boat on

14:54

doing that. There is a place where you

14:56

could probably get most people to be okay.

14:58

I'm largely because. You know you do. You

15:00

know that isn't getting. Didn't see a piece and

15:02

trying to say they wanna have abortions up until

15:05

birth. It's not what they want this Such a

15:07

lie. When. Need sadists state of not

15:09

be able. To to have abortions And

15:11

no one is allowed to have abortions up

15:13

until. Worked at each in Anadarko data

15:15

that. Add. That find that I think

15:18

this really is effective Like this woman that

15:20

Sepsis can't have kids or thing is is

15:22

this is just nonsense and this is what

15:24

I've been talking to live in saying this

15:27

and are so last week and that be

15:29

early the sleep is this is a big

15:31

topic for people not just women. Anyway I'm

15:33

speaking of Political South hundreds of creators on

15:36

threads and and has set matter an open

15:38

letter asking the company to reverse it's moves

15:40

to limit the reach of political contents days

15:42

that is running from the room and Khan

15:44

and Political Content says it's handle. Is so

15:47

badly at every single time Before said he

15:49

decided not to deal with the company's decision

15:51

is impacted to be to the Counts. Posting

15:53

on issues like abortion, Lgbtq rights and disability

15:56

one time and kept having abortion rights is

15:58

replacing a decline in the to ten million

16:00

to eight hundred thousand sledders. suggest that medicine

16:02

that ears often are out of restrictions rather

16:05

than making it default settings through the huge

16:07

mistake from matter. just a dumb they just

16:09

they want to get out of a thing

16:11

they do badly and so they just said

16:14

we're not going to do it anymore There's

16:16

a this company is constantly just. Speaking

16:18

of shooting itself in the foot, they're just. That

16:22

you know, this is their idea of

16:24

getting rid of political misinformation by killing

16:26

everybody likes his sister up. I honestly

16:28

these people just don't have any kind

16:30

of like ability to make a good

16:32

decision on these things. I

16:34

don't know your thoughts on this well

16:36

for a long time. Matter

16:39

has said that we're not subject to the

16:41

same liability no one gives a second to

16:43

thirty bit of philosophical acres where the bulletin

16:45

board and we can control what people put

16:47

up sir, that's there are that by virtue,

16:50

the fact they've decided to remove all political

16:52

content or at least diminished it's visibility there,

16:54

acknowledging their an editor third knowledge in our

16:56

media company. And by the way, I actually

16:58

think. They. Have the right to

17:01

do that because they are a media

17:03

company but if they have the right

17:05

to do that, we can see them.

17:08

They are subject to the same laws

17:10

defamation, slander, misinformation that every other but

17:12

media company is subject to. and personally

17:15

I don't like it does. I love

17:17

Jessica Yellin Contents: It's called news not

17:19

noise way to does get up to

17:22

speed and like. Ninety. Seconds

17:24

and she tries to do a good job

17:26

of just balls and strikes. And unfortunately because

17:28

matters like we're just not good at the

17:30

some you don't want to allocate resources around

17:33

fact checking. we don't want of anything

17:35

resembling a responsible media companies. We just rather

17:37

leave the room and not have any events

17:39

find you to to make that choice. But

17:42

then guess what, you're an editor which means

17:44

you're media company. Which means you can

17:46

be sued fly. I mean just like in

17:48

some always pointing out like if telesis

17:50

say decides to back biden city blocks.

17:53

Sites. Is our political yeah? Yeah. it's

17:55

ridiculous be just as the city

17:57

users i second things up doesn't

17:59

mean You have to hurt the good

18:01

users who are trying to have good political

18:03

discourse. I mean, seriously, Mehta, like get yourself

18:05

together and pay the price it costs for

18:07

being a media company. And that's what you

18:10

are. I hope

18:12

this convinces, I've, recently

18:14

I've been talking a lot in events I'm

18:16

doing for the book. I'm like, they're a media

18:18

company. Let's stop pretending. They're a modern

18:20

media company, but they're a media company. And

18:23

if Wuppert-Moorock can get sued, and believe me,

18:25

I'm thrilled he did and lost, they

18:28

should be able to get sued. Anyway, all

18:30

right, let's get to our first big story, speaking of that.

18:36

OpenAI and Mehta are getting closer to releasing

18:39

new AI models capable of reasoning and planning,

18:41

according to a new report in the Financial Times.

18:43

Both companies confirmed they're working on models that will

18:45

be more sophisticated when it comes to problem solving

18:47

and handling complex tasks. The

18:50

ability to reason would bring the technology

18:52

closer to artificial general intelligence, where

18:54

AI has some form of human level

18:57

cognition. And I don't like to anthropize

18:59

these things, but it's reasoning. They have

19:01

reasoning. It's not human reasoning, but it's

19:04

reasoning. What do you think

19:06

about this next step? And this is a fear

19:08

game for a lot of people. Elon

19:12

Musk, as usual, had to weigh in because he can't shut

19:14

the fuck up. I sent an interview, my guess is that

19:16

we'll have AI that is smarter than any one human

19:18

probably around the end of next year. I

19:21

think that's probably correct. I had

19:24

been in a meeting many years ago where

19:26

they said AI was like

19:29

a dolphin now and it's going to surpass humans

19:31

and then go way past humans in thinking. I

19:34

don't think that's the big thing. But do

19:36

you see any

19:38

kind of problem with this, obviously? There are

19:41

a lot of ways fraught with potential problems.

19:43

When you say this, do you mean the

19:45

speed of its development? The speed of its

19:47

development, which seems natural that this would happen.

19:49

Well, the author of Sapiens, his analogy

19:51

was a really interesting one. He said

19:53

at some point it was just amoebas

19:55

and then eventually these amoebas

19:58

evolved to terrain. and the Soros-Rex's and

20:00

it took billions of years. He

20:03

said, what AI now is an amoeba, but it'll

20:05

get to T-Rex in about 10 years. And

20:08

I think he's right. I don't think you

20:10

can slow it down. What I think you

20:12

can do though, is put in place pretty

20:14

stringent regulation and also bilateral

20:17

cooperation. We actually just, remember we

20:19

had Senator Warner and he said

20:21

that the American public doesn't realize

20:23

that behind closed doors, there's actually

20:25

more bipartisan cooperation. I

20:28

think there's more, I think that's also

20:30

true of bilateral cooperation across countries. Even

20:33

Iran, North Korea and the US come

20:35

together and say, okay, we're not gonna

20:37

have battlefield technologies where we can blind

20:39

soldiers in a nanosecond. We're not gonna,

20:42

we're gonna try and slow down the development

20:44

of bioweapons because we realize that could just

20:47

be bad for all of us. And

20:49

so I don't think, what

20:52

I don't like is the hand wringing and all the posturing

20:54

and the catastrophizing. I think what we

20:56

need is just really, and

21:00

I continue to flex the name drop, but

21:02

I've had some dialogue with the DHS and

21:04

I might play to their greed and

21:07

get them working, give them

21:09

economic incentive to help develop the

21:11

regulation and regulatory bodies. Because,

21:14

and create economic incentive here. The

21:17

only thing I ever see these companies react to is

21:19

money. They pretend to give a flying fuck about the

21:21

world and all that. And maybe they do in their

21:23

spare time, but their day jobs are just getting more

21:25

and more money. I mean, create economic

21:28

incentives to have the equivalent of kind of

21:30

the iron dome missile shield. There is

21:32

no reason why we can't have defense and

21:35

guardrails that are sophisticated as

21:37

the missiles or the problems themselves. Yeah, I agree

21:39

with you. I, you know, this new privacy bill

21:41

that Maria Senator Cantwell, I'll be interviewing her very

21:43

soon about this, but you know, it has a

21:45

lot of money things in it. Like there's some

21:47

fees and there's some incentives, you know, in it,

21:50

which I think is important. And

21:52

also, speaking of which, there's legal issues

21:54

too, which is great. Liability is a

21:56

great cleaner, is a very clarifying situation

21:59

for many companies. We're getting

22:01

some insights into OpenAI's legal strategy. The company's

22:03

been hit with more than a dozen high

22:05

profile lawsuits in government investigations in the last

22:07

year. The company has hired about two dozen

22:10

in-house lawyers to work on issues including, especially

22:12

copyright according to the Washington Post. As the

22:14

Post put it, these actions underscore the new

22:16

reality OpenAI is at war. One

22:19

of their strategies is to paint it as a

22:21

bulwark against China. They have other strategies. I've heard

22:23

them all from them. In New York Times, this

22:25

has a very significant lawsuit against OpenAI. I

22:27

urge everybody to read it. The

22:29

tech companies are saying that training is not

22:32

the big deal. They're not really stealing. They're

22:34

just training. It's not. They're

22:36

trying to use fair use and everything else.

22:38

I think it's Sarah Silverman suing.

22:40

It's a whole range of people from the New

22:42

York Times. It's Sarah Silverman to authors

22:45

and things like that. Of course, I had my

22:47

own experience with AI making

22:49

Kara Swisher books. You'll

22:51

have that with your book coming out soon. What

22:54

do you think of where these copyright lawsuits are?

22:56

I think my fear is that we make the

22:58

same mistake we did. I mean, the two- We

23:01

weren't suing before the first time, but go ahead.

23:03

That's right. The two original sends I see as

23:06

making the internet ad supported and not

23:08

having micropayments. I think that led to

23:10

just terrible places. Two, back

23:13

in the odds, traditional media

23:15

companies should have bound together and demanded that

23:17

these companies pay their

23:20

fair share to crawl our data and

23:22

slice up the block of cheese and then sell it

23:24

for more money. Again,

23:26

the thing I've told this story before, the thing that

23:28

brought home to me, I had dinner with the managing

23:30

editor of the New York Times once at a board

23:32

dinner and it was a guy named Bill Keller. He

23:34

had to excuse himself early from the dinner because he

23:36

was negotiating the release of one of his journalists from

23:38

the Taliban. I'm like, okay,

23:41

that's what the New York Times has to do. The

23:43

New York Times has to negotiate the release of a

23:45

journalist and Google just pulls up a dump truck

23:48

and takes money from us. They don't put

23:50

their people in harm's way. They don't fact check

23:52

anything. We had

23:54

an opportunity to bind together. News

23:57

Corps, you know, News

23:59

Corps, Congress. And then Condon asked everyone,

24:02

I wanted us all to bind together, that was my

24:04

idea, and then say, you are not

24:06

allowed to crawl our content and we're going to have

24:09

a bidding, a licensing war between Microsoft Bing, which was

24:11

viable at the time, and Google and anybody else. And

24:14

there was all this antitrust concern and we fell

24:16

into the idolatry of innovators. We thought, no, we're

24:18

going to make money, they're going to send us

24:21

traffic. We're at that moment now, except

24:23

companies seem to be smarter. The only thing I don't,

24:26

I'm worried about here is they're being atomized. The

24:29

New York Times should not be going at this

24:31

alone. There should be. Well,

24:33

Barry Giller wanted them all to go together.

24:35

Yeah, they did. And that's how they absolutely

24:37

should have done it. They should

24:39

all be speaking with one voice, similar to the

24:42

way that there's a group representing all music artists

24:44

that says that KROQ, K-Rock, 106.7,

24:46

the best radio station in the history

24:48

of the planet, that says if you're

24:50

going to play the cure this number

24:53

of times through the year, you owe

24:55

us X dollars. And

24:57

it's an ecosystem that works. It's

24:59

really interesting that people don't think about, and we'd love to

25:01

talk about this at some other point, not today, is these

25:04

companies still don't have a business plan and it's

25:06

got to have to be advertising or something. None

25:09

of these AI companies have a business plan yet

25:11

of how they're going to make money. Open AI has a bit of a

25:14

... They have a plan. A little bit. They have a

25:16

little ... It's small. It's a small subscription,

25:18

et cetera. How

25:21

they're going to make money here in a big way

25:24

is going to be an interesting thing. And there's plenty

25:26

of money if they do it right

25:28

with these media companies, right, in cooperation

25:30

and everything else. I think they're going to tend

25:33

towards not wanting to give them much of

25:35

the pie eventually, but we

25:37

should not be giving away the milk for free,

25:39

as they say, in the old cow metaphor. So

25:41

anyway, we'll see where it goes. I think they're

25:43

going to win some of these copyright lawsuits and

25:46

then we'll see. And then they have their arguments

25:48

and maybe we'll bring them on and hear from

25:50

them about their arguments. It'll be good

25:52

for people to get illuminated on what each side

25:54

is saying, even if they're not supporting the Marissa

25:56

Mayer, it's still early. And according to Shel Samberg,

25:58

we're proud of our ... progress, but we need

26:00

to do better. They're

26:03

going to deploy the same number of... Yeah,

26:06

same nonsense. Sam Altman is Sheryl Sandberg with

26:08

Hush Towns. He's very attractive. He's very nice.

26:11

He gives you the illusion that he gives a flying fuck,

26:13

and he's going to deploy his army of

26:16

lobbyists, and they're going to try and say

26:18

it's about progress. They'll use Jingo Wispy. Will

26:20

China's AI weaponized warriors are coming for us?

26:22

They will pull out the same table. We're

26:24

here to help. And our

26:27

golden girls, the Walking Dead Congress

26:29

will want to be part of the young... To

26:31

serve man. It's a cookbook. And

26:34

the same thing, not as bad, but the

26:36

same thing is happening again. And

26:40

they absolutely need to bind together and say, you

26:42

crawl any of our data, any of

26:45

our data. I

26:48

want to have Tom Petty's, even the losers,

26:51

for our opening song. We can't play five

26:53

seconds of it. There's no fair use. That

26:56

would cost $80,000. I looked into it. $80,000

26:59

a year. But oh, but

27:01

OpenAI can crawl every article in history

27:04

off of the New York Times. All

27:06

right. We'll see where it goes.

27:08

All right, Scott. Let's take a quick break. We come

27:10

back. We'll talk about why shareholders are

27:12

not thrilled with Paramount Global's merger plan and speak

27:15

to a friend of Pivot Isaac Arnzorff about the

27:17

rise of the MAGA movement. And

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drink smartwater.com. Scott,

29:34

we're back with our second big story. Paramount

29:36

Global is facing some headwinds in the midst

29:38

of exclusive merger talks with Skydance Media. That

29:41

is run by David Ellison, son of

29:43

Larry Ellison. I've done an interview with him. He's a

29:45

really interesting guy. He does the Star Trek and

29:48

Mission Impossible movies and I've been top gun

29:50

too. He's a very successful movie maker. Paramount

29:52

has currently lost more than one-third of its

29:55

market value since early December when reports about the

29:57

possible merger first come out. That's kind of interesting,

29:59

Cheryl. These are worried about the deal structure would.

30:01

Unfairly benefit Sherry Redstone the way it's

30:03

formulated and I that we could go

30:05

into it. I guess I'm you adjust

30:07

for. Directors are also cited to step

30:09

down from Paramount's weren't coming weeks Clinton

30:11

was two daughters are pissed about that

30:13

that There's a lot of rancorous Under

30:15

current terms read since National Amusements Company

30:17

receive over two billion dollars in cash

30:19

and Sky Dancer the first step of

30:21

the deal and Paramount Global would. Acquire

30:24

Sky Dance in an all star

30:26

feel bad Europe: five billion, very

30:28

complex national news and controls paramount

30:30

global and so. Would advantage there

30:32

were read: some families are paramount.

30:34

Also has had a twenty six. Billion

30:37

Dollar or cash offer from private equity

30:39

firm Apollo Global Management. To you and

30:41

I know Mark Rylance be good but they

30:43

went there going with side against as it's

30:45

better for sure Iran Zone and is the

30:48

Pyramids Board formed a special independent comedic value

30:50

companies options. The board seems to be trying

30:52

to push back on audio by threatening quitting.

30:54

That's a serious and has control here to

30:56

she's a controlling shareholder so what do you

30:59

think? Scott I'd love to hear. Your side

31:01

there's no doubt about it. Sherry and the

31:03

bankers him to his sock this up so

31:05

bad they had it and it's I can't

31:08

they have a last time a company with

31:10

this type of assets and even though it's

31:12

in a declining industry decision I like how

31:14

can a yellow terms everything some cash flow,

31:17

all kinds of shit and and he he

31:19

adds in the midst of merger talks in

31:21

the stock as off twenty four percent I

31:23

mean you just never see that and what

31:25

you have here is do class herald assistant

31:28

structure where the one shareholders and block everything

31:30

despite the fact. Is sitting on a melting

31:32

ice to have every day crosses arms and

31:34

says no I want a premium to what

31:36

other shareholders who gets to the other shareholders

31:39

of said sorry girlfriend were going to try

31:41

and block the skill and what's obvious here

31:43

is that. When. There's only two

31:45

bitters, and once a financial better. Is.

31:47

Clear, this is kind of shaping up

31:50

to be assailed auction and then shareholder

31:52

see internal strife. This assists. This is

31:54

not only a clusterfuck, but it's you

31:56

know, Mom's addicted to diet pills and

31:58

Dad's a pet. While but the neighbors

32:01

didn't know. Now everybody knows who I meet.

32:03

It's allows. it's a seems there's dirt upset.

32:06

Their. Dirty Laundry is is being. This

32:08

company can't get it's shit together. The

32:10

shareholders are at war with own Das

32:12

the stump see there's an answer seen

32:15

warfare. All the strategic players that sit

32:17

on the same have said we don't

32:19

even want it and a financial buyer

32:22

Apollo was in there. If Apollo was

32:24

in their it means the cash flow

32:26

alone at the price it's out right

32:29

now is justifiable. Meaning the thing as

32:31

have sailed auction and then you have

32:33

Allison in their. What's gonna happen? Or

32:35

it ear Mr. Deal maker what's gonna happen

32:38

here From your perspective which should happen and

32:40

what will happen. That. There's the assets

32:42

are good for someone the obviously it's

32:44

at rock. Rowan wouldn't business around if you

32:46

didn't think it was interesting. On isn't an

32:48

opportunity I think Alison, i'm Roman, are grown

32:50

ups. And I think they're going to

32:52

split the baby. I think they're gonna end up

32:55

each stating. Adding to things going

32:57

to be sold for parts I think

32:59

the movies I'd adding sir now said so

33:01

that a one player and sir now

33:03

so to go to another Let's see

33:05

has literally overplayed her hands for five years.

33:08

In They're did No one believes her,

33:10

She can't bluff, and there's only two

33:12

people in the world who are are

33:14

even interested in this thing right now.

33:17

And at some point and they're not precluded from

33:19

I don't think from partner is saying okay I

33:21

want the studio you're going to take the cable

33:23

assets. Wanted to stress asset good bank, bad banks

33:25

that I think this ends up. she has to

33:28

get out now to see doesn't get out the

33:30

Sox going to go another thirty or forty percent

33:32

down. With she doesn't have to consider has.

33:34

To raise the she could home for right

33:36

track I'm sure she did. She could continue

33:38

sequence. She can stop shooting yourself in the

33:41

seat for bankers if she has. I see

33:43

tap your stupid woman or I'd she's made

33:45

some stupid moves here but they're going to

33:47

say to her if we don't do this

33:49

is your company's off another thirty or fifty

33:51

percent next year. Ever notice every day she

33:53

doesn't close a deal de Cinco Sound and

33:55

Route instead alone is worth like a lot

33:57

more to five years ago right assistant like.

34:00

Oh my God, this is one of the,

34:03

this was an iconic brand trading

34:05

at a very strong multiple. Off

34:07

24, you can put out

34:10

a rumor, and CEOs and bankers do

34:12

this saying there's been an inbound

34:14

inquiry or we're open to selling the

34:16

company. The stock pops 10 or 20%,

34:18

the stock's gone down here. So

34:21

this is, I think this is gonna be

34:23

sold for parts. And who wins, Apollo or

34:25

Skydance? The answer is yes. Yes, that's a

34:27

really smart thing. So you think there's, Mark

34:29

is on the phone to this guy and

34:31

saying, hey girl. It

34:34

strikes me that first off, this thing

34:36

has become. Who calls who in that

34:38

situation? This thing has become an ungangly

34:40

robot built in a factory of lesser

34:43

robots. It's got subscale parts, they're all

34:45

assets, but there's not really a ton

34:47

of synergy here at subscale. I

34:50

would imagine Skydance wants certain assets

34:52

and not others, whereas Apollo just

34:54

wants cashflow. These guys

34:56

are adults, they're super smart. The

34:58

bankers and Sherry have demonstrated neither

35:00

of those things. They're gonna

35:03

split the baby, they're gonna buy the same. Yeah,

35:05

the board, this board move was something else. That

35:07

takes a lot for, those people are like. That

35:09

means they're at war with each other. Those people are professional board

35:12

members on that. It's done on Ostrab,

35:14

a whole bunch of people. They don't do this lightly,

35:16

because they love being on the board. Yeah,

35:19

they love being on board. It means it's one of

35:21

those boards. And being on private planes and everything else.

35:23

Yeah, it means the boards, it means individual board members

35:25

have lawyered up, they're not speaking to Sherry. It's

35:28

gotten really fucking ugly, and every board member

35:30

on this board is regretting going on the

35:32

board of this thing, and it's now thinking

35:34

about reputation and getting sued and being 100%.

35:38

Yeah, yeah, all right, well, we'll see where

35:40

it goes. Sherry, get with it, come on. Even if

35:42

you have control, you don't have control anymore. I think

35:44

that's pretty much it. I think she should

35:46

start dating Lauren Sanchez. Well, I'm sure you're

35:48

gonna tell me a dating story about you

35:50

and her someday, but anyway. Well, you had

35:52

mentioned Senator Cantwell before, and I just can't

35:54

comment on it, because she and I, we

35:57

don't talk publicly about our work-life. God is

35:59

dating back to. Gotta feeling None of

36:01

these people. Nor has have any insists

36:03

and parents had some saga be asking

36:05

says the demo. About that to to

36:07

say that's my job since. In. Fact: Excoriating.

36:09

history. Anyway, Nesting and our

36:12

friend? The ticket. Prices

36:19

aren't stores Is a national political reporter

36:21

for The Wash Impose, an author of

36:23

Finish What We started, the mega Movements

36:26

Ground War to end Democracy. Isaac Welcome.

36:28

Say so much Roger early think we

36:30

talked about these issues. Run dictatorships, With

36:32

Ruth Than Yachts and I were your are

36:35

follow the or follow to do with others

36:37

Importance on and it's in public. I'm thinking

36:39

about a lot of Sussex. I'm thinking about

36:41

Steve Bannon almost continually at Whoo You write

36:44

about a lot and I wish I'd appreciate

36:46

for people understand how important years and all

36:48

this but this is a book where for

36:50

one sell itself is not the main characters.

36:53

They said it's about Mag as a movements

36:55

Talk about why you wanted to dig into

36:57

it and why you made Steve Bannon. Such

36:59

a big cancer you it's absolutely correct

37:02

to do so. but talk about that

37:04

will think you're yeah it's on the

37:06

book. It is kind of like a

37:08

a search to discover Trump or near

37:10

me shows up at the very beginning

37:12

and then we see people kind of

37:14

hearing him and trying to contact him

37:17

on boudoir sweets. Meet him until the

37:19

very end of you know. Part of

37:21

that was just like you know what

37:23

else is there say about the most

37:25

famous person in modern human history But

37:27

part of it is also. Likes, you

37:29

know the I started the reporting at

37:32

a time when Trump was was actually

37:34

out of a picture right? This was

37:36

early to mid twenty twenty one. He

37:39

was basically and hibernation at More Lago

37:41

and it was actually the movement on

37:43

be was his supporters as. Hardest.

37:46

And guided by Ben in who

37:48

through their activism at the ground

37:50

level paves the way for Trump

37:52

to make this comebacker was not

37:54

at all clear or inevitable that

37:56

we would be where we are

37:58

now, right? you been. And I think

38:00

of him as a marketer in a lot of ways.

38:02

I pay a lot of attention to him, he says,

38:05

because he's quite brilliant on communications, marketing. And he has

38:07

a media background for people who don't know. And he

38:09

was part of a lot of weird things, too, including

38:11

the biosphere. He's a longtime media executive. He's a little

38:13

Roger Ailes in that way. So let's

38:16

talk about a couple of things. You interviewed him several

38:18

times over the last few years. You

38:20

write he believes that the MAGA movement could, quote,

38:23

represent a dominant coalition that could rule for 100

38:25

years. Sounds

38:27

very Third Reich in that regard. And I

38:30

recently interviewed Tim Ryback about

38:32

how Hitler did a similar kind

38:34

of revival of himself. Talk

38:37

about Bannon's role here, and especially

38:41

before and after January 6, because he's got

38:43

his own legal problems, obviously, which he has

38:46

tried to squirrel out of. Yeah,

38:48

well, there was the

38:50

first indictment for the fundraising for the

38:52

wall that he and the other people

38:54

involved were actually spending on themselves, allegedly.

38:58

Trump helped them out with pardoning him for that.

39:00

And that actually really helped him in that moment

39:03

right after January 6, when,

39:05

again, Trump sort of disappeared.

39:08

And a lot of

39:10

pro-Trump voices were disappearing from,

39:13

were getting deplatformed from mainstream

39:15

social media and weren't

39:17

getting a lot of mainstream news interviews either.

39:20

That really kind of supercharged the

39:22

development of this alternative ecosystem of

39:25

MAGA media. And Bannon

39:27

really became the son

39:30

of that solar system. And it helped that

39:32

he had the validation

39:34

of that Trump pardon. But

39:37

you're also right to think about Bannon. Really,

39:39

the weird period for Bannon was

39:42

when he was a White House or campaign strategist.

39:44

I mean, he came on through Breitbart. He came

39:46

on as a media figure. And so there's

39:48

something very natural about him as this

39:51

outsider media figure, actually. Yeah, one

39:53

might compare him to Goebbels, honestly, would in a

39:55

lot of ways. But also brilliant

39:57

the way I hate to compliment Goebbels.

40:00

but he was brilliant in terms of selling Hitler. Talk

40:03

a little bit about what is his

40:05

role. His role has developed. He

40:07

obviously was on the outs and then he was

40:09

in trouble legally. And then he came back after

40:11

the pardon. He has his show, The

40:13

War Room. I spent

40:16

a lot of time focused on Steve Bannon, I have to tell

40:18

you, myself. Talk

40:20

about, what would you say? You called

40:22

him the son. How would you explain

40:24

that a little further? Well, actually, I literally just

40:26

came here from The War Room. Before this, I

40:28

was doing an interview on his show where

40:31

neighbors on Capitol Hill said, I've

40:33

just gone through the looking glass and

40:36

back out. But, you know. About your

40:38

book. Yeah, exactly. About your book about

40:40

him. Because it's kind of their story.

40:43

But the case for their story not being,

40:46

when I first heard about that

40:48

Bannon was telling Trump supporters that

40:50

they needed to go become low-level

40:53

officials in the Republican party, it's

40:56

sort of like, okay, well, you know. But

40:58

there's a lot of stuff that people

41:00

talk about online. And what matters is,

41:02

does it actually cross over into a

41:04

real physical political action? And what became

41:06

amazing to me about this story is

41:08

that it was, is that I would

41:10

call around to local party

41:12

offices all over the country, but focusing on

41:15

the key states. And say, like,

41:17

are people coming out of the woodwork to

41:19

be precinct chairs? Which is like a nothing

41:21

position that no one's ever heard of. And

41:23

the answer was yes. And so that's when

41:26

I knew that, that that is actually

41:28

the power of Bannon, is that what

41:30

happens on his show doesn't stay on

41:32

his show. It

41:35

actually crosses over into action. And

41:37

he's very intentional about that. The,

41:39

what he is trying to give

41:41

his listeners a

41:44

feeling of empowerment and agency.

41:47

And particularly in that particular

41:49

time after January 6th, when

41:52

many Trump supporters were so confused

41:54

and disillusioned and disoriented about what

41:57

happened, that guidance was crucial. Happy

41:59

with. as a person. Like

42:01

you were on the show, obviously, I wouldn't say you're

42:03

friendly with him, but you know him and spend time

42:05

with him. How do you assess him

42:07

as a power figure? He's

42:10

very smart. He really does

42:13

read. I mean, he reads voraciously.

42:15

And, you know, I kind

42:20

of, there are times when I feel like it's

42:22

Steve Bannon's world and the rest of us are

42:25

just living in it. He does understand

42:27

like a, he is a

42:30

generational talent as a political

42:32

strategist in kind of understanding,

42:35

both understanding the mood of at least

42:38

a part of the population and understanding

42:40

how to channel that into meaningful

42:42

political action. Nice to meet

42:44

you. This guy is such an interesting character. What

42:47

do you think his endgame is? When he, I

42:49

don't know if he's married or when

42:52

he's with people he trusts, you

42:54

know, he's not a young man. And they say,

42:56

what is your endgame here? Like, what are your

42:58

goals? What do you want to accomplish? If you

43:01

were to try and look into

43:03

his soul or his head,

43:05

what do you think the endgame is for

43:07

Steve Bannon? Well, there was a point in

43:09

the reporting where he said very explicitly to

43:11

me, I'm not

43:13

in the rebuilding business. I'm in the

43:16

tearing down business. Right. So he, he,

43:18

he views the, the, he views history

43:21

as a cycle of, of

43:23

building up and tearing down. And he

43:25

wants to be an active agent of

43:27

that tearing down. And so

43:29

that something new can be rebuilt. And

43:32

what he has in mind is,

43:34

is rebuilt is redefining the two

43:37

party system. So instead of having

43:39

two national pluralistic parties, you'll have

43:41

a left wing globalist elitist party

43:43

and a right wing populist nationalist party.

43:46

And he thinks that's a rubric for

43:48

the nationalist party to dominate. Right. Of

43:50

course, he's using the word nationalist, which

43:52

has its recurminations Of that. Do you, so

43:55

he doesn't want to be there. He just wants

43:57

to, he wants to, you know, I Always say

43:59

some people just want to burn. down the world

44:01

and that they know they're like they want to

44:03

change them like no, no, no, they want to

44:05

burn it down for the next saying. kind of

44:07

say. How did he react to that idea that

44:09

people are kind of onto Oma? Nothing? anybody cares

44:12

right? Correct. Still talk, He talks to you right?

44:14

It was very I wrote him once. he wrote.

44:16

with that and five seconds. it was really something

44:18

to say, right? And you don't usually get that

44:20

from figures because he's got his fingers. He knows.

44:22

Who? Everybody is correct but as

44:24

you know as a media's figure

44:26

he appreciates the the importance of

44:28

media Your He's not one of

44:30

these people around Trump who are

44:32

like Rhonda scientists who like and

44:34

really believe we make stuff up

44:36

com and where the enemy on

44:38

he's much more like Trump in

44:40

the sense that he is is

44:42

dying to use I saw for

44:44

his his purposes. You know he

44:46

is unapologetic about using terms like

44:48

nationalism and nationalism is a hell

44:50

of a drug but he is

44:52

a little bit sensitive about and

44:54

we got into this a little

44:56

bit on the air just now.

44:58

He is a little bit sensitive

45:00

about this idea of ending democracy.

45:03

And as he points out. Accurately

45:06

that I'm that this precincts

45:08

strategy, what the Trump supporters

45:10

are doing is using the

45:13

machinery of democracy to. Try

45:15

to achieve their political objective that, but

45:18

it's important to understand that Democracy Ah

45:20

sin, and not at the end of

45:22

a rifle, but at the hands of

45:24

it's elected leaders. Democracy. The hello that

45:27

This is precisely what a gym my bags

45:29

book is about it. See that? The Hitler

45:31

Youth Democracy To End Democracy. That's that's the.

45:33

That's the old to mean. That's this

45:35

nonsense when he saying to anyway scotland.

45:38

What role is he playing in the

45:40

election for twenty twenty four of? from

45:42

what I understand he is the of

45:44

He has not. Be. Odd the

45:46

Terror campaign Ceo like he was

45:49

in Twenty six. Team on T

45:51

is not frequently in touch with

45:53

Trump himself like other advisers. T

45:56

is in touch with some members

45:58

of Trump's team. Fairly

46:00

regular basis arms, but

46:03

it's helpful to. To

46:06

Trump to have that little bit

46:08

of Canucks critical and plausible distance

46:10

while at the same time you

46:13

have ban in kind of as

46:15

a laboratory for developing the movement

46:17

that fuels Trump and an intensive

46:20

and ah I would imagine it.

46:22

Either. Wounded in see called trump loses his instrument

46:24

right a dead heat when he saw him from

46:26

and dell know the. The elevate escalator

46:29

and to Trump Tower it's he thinks

46:31

it's to eat. Finding it feels like

46:33

eating since. Is not dumb, but that

46:35

is just the instruments to getting what. He

46:38

wants correct or he

46:40

thinks that Trump viscerally

46:42

understand the aesthetics of

46:44

power and how to

46:46

make himself. A vehicle

46:48

of vessel for their grievances and

46:51

desires of a lot of Americans.

46:53

And and Trump has the charisma

46:55

and the same and the stature

46:58

to do that. Arms but. Fan.

47:00

And is is embedded in Trump

47:03

has slightly different goals in of

47:05

to everything for Trump is about

47:07

himself and when when When when

47:10

Ben and describes him as his

47:12

instrument what he's talking about is

47:14

trying to channel the movement. Into.

47:18

An institution of the parties

47:20

where it's in, transcend the

47:22

limits of being a cult

47:24

of personality around a single

47:26

leader and actually achieve the

47:28

durability through the party structure

47:31

that it would need to

47:33

be a hundred year old

47:35

regime. Yeah, that's why it's not

47:37

gonna work to Teflon. Anyway, it's it's dinner

47:39

and dizzy week for down something and legal

47:41

team trying to put a stop that nice

47:43

money child's not working and slated to begin

47:45

next week. He loves to do those delay

47:47

tactics and I know even falling all that,

47:49

I just would love you to. Talk about

47:51

that Trump legal issues helping him with these

47:54

mega supporters It's you've been chronicling. Yes, Oh,

47:56

there are. There is an amazing moment where

47:58

I I happens to. The on had

48:01

a cigar party on the sidelines

48:03

of the Georgia State Republican Convention.

48:05

Oh wow, that sounds like fun.

48:08

It ended up being the night

48:10

where Trump got indicted the second

48:12

time. And so I

48:15

was in them. If you know I

48:17

was actually in the position of of

48:19

being with these Trump supporters when they

48:21

were finding out in real time or

48:23

even in some cases being the one

48:25

to break seduce to them and seeing

48:27

how they reacted in if it helps

48:29

me understand because. I think I'm you

48:31

know, for people outside the movement,

48:33

there's very much a sense of

48:35

like what is relayed all about.

48:37

like pay has made to a

48:40

porn star or ah, mishandling classified

48:42

information. Like, how could that be

48:44

up something that anyone else could?

48:46

Things could happen to them. But

48:49

if you, if you believe that that's

48:52

all made up. ah. Politicized.

48:54

Charges planted. Evidence says

48:56

just to stop him

48:58

from his political opponents

49:01

then. Then. You see

49:03

it as well. What chance do I

49:05

have as they can do that to

49:07

him with all his power. And I

49:09

mean these are people in the Georgia

49:12

Party who who knew, people who had

49:14

been subpoenaed or charged or because of

49:16

January Six or the the Say Collectors

49:19

investigations And so it. It was personal

49:21

to them and there was a way

49:23

in which the there actually was something

49:25

very powerfully relayed all about the sense

49:28

of alienation of how can this be

49:30

happening in America that I'm. That it

49:32

did that to support is very strongly

49:34

identify with with when you see trumpet

49:36

and it all caps truths about how

49:38

can they be taking away my my

49:41

business and how can they be putting

49:43

the on trial in this is so

49:45

unfair near it sent the Grievance industrial

49:47

complex i call it do when when

49:49

as yeah no bannon how did it

49:51

change your view on politics in America?

49:53

Yeah I'm the only way that. That.

49:56

I ever became constable understanding what happened in

49:58

the last for you. was to understand

50:01

it in a much longer

50:03

timeline. And that there was

50:05

actually a lot of continuity between

50:07

what we call MAGA and

50:09

the dawn of

50:11

the modern conservative movement with Barry Goldwater.

50:14

And the issue was that it was

50:17

systematically marginalized by the Republican

50:19

Party for many decades. And

50:21

it, you know, kind of

50:23

made an outside attempt with

50:26

with Papi cannon and with the

50:28

tea party, but it never until

50:30

Trump had someone with the charisma

50:32

and the resources and the fame

50:34

and the wherewithal to mainstream it.

50:37

And that

50:39

to me was really the only way

50:41

it made sense is how this

50:43

could spread so, so far so

50:45

quickly was to understand that it

50:48

was actually something very deeply rooted

50:50

in American political culture. Absolutely. Yeah,

50:52

they never got their chance really, you know, and

50:54

now they've got their guy. He's right about the

50:56

instrument part. He's right. It is

50:58

a lot of marketing too. And tapping

51:00

into long held feelings by not

51:03

much of the country, but enough of the country about

51:05

grievance and being left out and

51:07

left behind and beyond

51:10

that and just being it's never your fault. That's

51:12

the other part, which of course, it's never their

51:14

fault. They could possibly never imagine

51:16

they did anything wrong that

51:18

deserves this kind of treatment. But

51:20

it'll be interesting. So do you have any predictions

51:23

about what's coming with this? Where

51:26

it ends up? Does it have the strength?

51:28

We just earlier talking about, you

51:31

know, the abortion thing, there's a lot of hits

51:34

it's been taking at the same time, it still

51:36

continues to have remarkable resilience. When you're looking

51:38

at it, I'm not asking you make

51:40

a prediction. How do you feel

51:42

about its resilience? I think there are two sides

51:44

to that coin. The way

51:46

that the party infrastructure is

51:48

more unified and consolidated behind

51:50

Trump is a huge asset,

51:53

especially, you know, as

51:56

an offset to like

51:58

the mess of his legal troubles and

52:01

the RNC's finances and you know whatever is

52:03

going on with that campaign the fact that

52:05

you've got the field organization out there in

52:07

the party and it's full

52:09

of really died in the

52:11

world Trump supporters is

52:13

meaningful. The flip side is

52:15

that Democrats and

52:18

the book deals with this strand

52:20

of the story also how Democrats and

52:23

some anti-Trump Republicans figured out

52:25

a way to use an

52:28

anti-MAGA message effectively to

52:31

wedge off Republicans who

52:33

are uncomfortable with MAGA

52:35

and what they see is how

52:38

the party has changed and gotten

52:40

more extreme and that's really an

52:42

underappreciated story about how

52:44

the midterm results surprisingly

52:48

were so favorable to the Democrats and

52:50

that's key to understanding

52:52

the bid that the Biden campaign is

52:54

making and that is gonna I think

52:56

you know it's a vanishingly small slice

52:59

of the electorate but it's gonna be

53:01

a close election and that could be

53:03

decisive. Yeah absolutely I've always been

53:05

amazed how and Bannon does

53:08

this beautifully how much losers can pretend their

53:10

winners and convince you of that they didn't

53:12

lose it's really they've lost everything over the

53:14

past couple of years and they continue to

53:16

act like they're the biggest winners ever and

53:18

that's a strength of Bannon to do that

53:20

you know don't believe your

53:22

lion eyes anyway anyway this

53:25

is a really important book there's several books

53:27

recently that I think are really substantive Isaac's

53:29

is one of them which

53:31

is called finished what we started the MAGA movement's

53:33

ground war to end democracy thank

53:35

you so much thank you man

53:38

that's Steve Bannon I watch him carefully Scott

53:40

I really do yeah they pay a lot

53:42

of attention to him anyway one

53:44

I really urge you to read this book he's

53:46

a really he's someone we think of as an

53:48

unmade bed and kind of a schlub but he's

53:50

certainly not anyway one more quick break we'll be

53:52

back for predictions hey

53:58

everyone this is Jesse damn Fox host of Good

54:00

One, a podcast about jokes. I

54:02

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now only on Peacock. Hi

54:34

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54:36

Us. In this podcast

54:39

we'll explore ideas, stories, experiences,

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anything that reflects the universal experiences

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54:48

moments to our most broken-hearted moments.

54:51

Some episodes will be conversations with the people who

54:53

are teaching me, challenging me,

54:55

confusing me, maybe ticking me

54:57

off a little bit. And some days I'll

54:59

just talk directly to you about what I'm learning and how

55:01

it's changing the way I think and feel. The

55:04

first episodes are out now. We're going

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to do three or four part series every quarter, so

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year. Unlocking Us will always

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55:17

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55:19

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55:21

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55:25

And as always, stay awkward, brave,

55:27

and kind. Okay,

55:36

Scott, before we do predictions, I just want to note

55:38

some news that just came in. O.J. Simpson

55:40

has died at the age of 76. His family posted

55:43

a statement on X. During this

55:45

time of transition, his family asked that you

55:47

please respect their wishes for privacy and grace

55:49

to Simpson's family. I don't know what to

55:51

say. I have no regard for him, so

55:54

I don't want to say rest in peace. I don't know. What

55:56

do you think? I think he's a murderer, and I hope he suffered. Took

55:59

two innocent lives. lives was

56:01

exonerated by a jury

56:03

that fell into the trap of

56:05

identity politics and incompetent prosecution and

56:07

go straight to hell, boss. Yeah.

56:10

I think I'm with you on that one, Scott Galloway. All right. Let's

56:12

hear a prediction. Well, on that note. We're

56:15

so... Like, I did a thing

56:17

the other day and I said someone should die. I

56:19

think I was talking about Alex Jones because he's so

56:21

heinous and someone's like, you shouldn't wish death on people.

56:23

I said, I think I shall. I think I shall.

56:25

Anyway, let's hear your predictions. I'm not going to kill

56:27

him. Yeah, I know. There

56:30

are some people that deserve one retirement plan.

56:35

My prediction is super boring. I

56:37

think big bank stocks are about

56:40

to kick off their earnings tomorrow when

56:42

this releases with JP Morgan. I

56:45

think they're going to beat their earnings expectations

56:47

because the general... Their stocks would have been

56:49

priced into their stocks was the assumption

56:51

that interest rates were coming down and big

56:54

banks kind of live and die by their

56:56

net interest margin and that is they loan

56:58

out money to mortgages for 7% and

57:01

they pay you kind of 3% or 4% and

57:03

that margin is where they make the bulk of

57:05

their money. People are

57:07

assuming that the interest rates they were going to have

57:09

to offer people because inflation was declining was going to

57:12

come down. It hasn't. In

57:14

addition, there's been some consolidation. Some regional banks

57:16

have gone out of business and also there's

57:18

been a flight of capital from regional banks

57:20

who are worried about an SBB-like situation into

57:22

the biggest banks. We're

57:24

also seeing the IPO markets come back a

57:26

little bit. I just think it's champagne and

57:28

cocaine for these guys and I think that

57:31

despite the fact they have actually outperformed the S&P and

57:33

had a great year, I still think they're going to

57:36

continue to outperform and they're going to surprise the upside

57:38

this week. Yeah, they also though were looking for

57:40

a rate cup. They looked like they're not getting one.

57:42

For some reason, Jamie Dimon has been a little irritating

57:44

lately in his pronouncements. Have you noticed that? He's been

57:46

a lot of pronouncing and he was wrong the first

57:48

time about where the economy was going. Now

57:50

he's sort of... It's impossible to prove

57:52

it. Gloomy-dooming it. I

57:55

think he'd make actually a pretty good Treasury Secretary.

57:57

He's going for it for whatever administration he's second

57:59

up to Trump. Fucking up to

58:01

bind. He was at that Japan party

58:03

with Mrs. Ser Ms and shows yesterday.

58:05

Go. Around resisted

58:07

arm. Is

58:10

unless the were not women. the just

58:12

barely been fairly been cut out early.

58:15

But. I am going to the embassy and

58:17

sustainable facets. To wonder

58:19

she that you know. you know if I got

58:22

over his house state dinner I have a hard

58:24

time taking between you and any other I would.

58:26

I kind of want to go with you in

58:28

a weird way if. You know it's a

58:31

man and only that Scott with the

58:33

that would be great if we can

58:35

earn on average from and get a

58:37

bonus. ah I see likely to want

58:39

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and assign us to healing to branded sign.

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wouldn't Pastries in my purse? Yes. Exactly. Over

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the you're not wearing the dress, what would

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they do? There's not a make a due

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date around.damage to run away I'd How the.

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Us is a J Six the hostages.

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somewhere else of a jail I'm you're the

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only did have ever had of the White

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it's a good boy you are such a

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good boy Their asked me to Santa leader

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and summarizes best behavior for the Secretary of

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State. Stops and goes Kara Swisher Facilities Crisis.

59:21

This Caesar cipher semi nicer

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to or. Any way listen as we

59:25

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So please. My habit in any

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produced learn Amazon Marcus and are driven

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And Ronald Goldman.