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1:20

Hi, everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine

1:22

and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm

1:25

Kara Swisher and I have a doctorate.

1:27

Thank you. What? I

1:29

mean, you got an honorary doctorate? I gave the commencement address

1:32

at Cooper Union and they gave me an honorary

1:34

doctorate. And so you may call me Dr.

1:36

Swisher

1:37

now. Dr. Swisher, no, your family

1:39

now has two doctors. Yeah, exactly,

1:41

mine's a fake one, but there I am. I

1:43

don't have a PhD or anything near it. I have a master's

1:45

degree, but certainly not a PhD.

1:47

People all the time introduce

1:49

me in media as doctor because they assume every

1:51

professor has a PhD. Oh, really?

1:55

Which I don't, just to be clear. Yeah. How

1:57

was that? How did your commencement speech go? It was great.

2:00

I have to tell you, Scott, you want to feel better

2:02

about the world, meet with young people. The

2:05

student who was giving the address was

2:08

astonishing, just a great speech.

2:11

They are honest about things,

2:13

but hopeful and yet at the same time not stupid.

2:15

He talked about how he hates the word resilient and being

2:18

referred to as resilient, which I agree

2:20

with. You know what I mean? Like as if you get used

2:22

to being under siege. And so

2:25

he was great. It was just, it was great. And the

2:27

woman who runs Cooper Union, it's a really,

2:30

it's a small but really interesting school right

2:32

in the heart of the

2:35

East Village. And

2:37

it sort of combines art and science. And

2:39

so there's architecture, there's art, there's

2:42

lots of engineers, mostly engineers. But

2:45

it sort of reminds me of that Steve Jobs idea of

2:47

art and science together. And you can see it in action.

2:50

I just was super impressed. It

2:52

used to give every student free

2:54

tuition. They had some setbacks and they're trying

2:57

to get back to that now. So

3:00

the students

3:00

are... Was this your first speaking engagement

3:02

at a commencement? Yes. Yes.

3:05

Yes. I did a high school commencement once, but... By

3:07

the way, that's not me wanting to know about you. That's

3:10

me prompting you to ask me if I ever spoke at a commencement.

3:12

Did you ever speak at any

3:15

kind of commencement, any kind of transition

3:17

of people to a next thing?

3:18

I've spoken at one college commencement.

3:21

Do you want to guess where and when it

3:25

was? If they were smart, UCLA,

3:27

because you went there. But

3:31

Florida State University.

3:32

FSU. I

3:34

was the student speaker at the Berkeley commencement.

3:36

Oh my goodness. When

3:39

you went there? That's a real flex. Wow.

3:41

You were elected then, just like this kid

3:44

that was so amazing at Cooper Union. Were you elected

3:46

by your peers?

3:47

I wasn't elected. Oh, I guess I was selected.

3:49

They came out to me, someone from Sun government came up

3:51

and said, we'd like you to be the commencement speaker.

3:53

Oh wow. Yeah. Because usually they get selected

3:55

now in a vote or

3:58

competition. Wow. That's great. What did you say?

3:59

say? Let me hear a very short version.

4:02

Oh, it was all about

4:04

my mom. My mom was sick.

4:07

So it was very emotionally

4:09

manipulative. No, but it

4:11

was probably heartfelt. That's called heartfelt, Scott.

4:14

It was probably true. Did you have hair at the time?

4:16

A lot of hair. I had good hair. As a matter of fact, you

4:19

know how I got to Berkeley? My motor transportation

4:21

was a skateboard and a ponytail. I had a ponytail

4:25

in graduate school. That was a

4:27

good luck.

4:28

That's how you lose your virginity at 19.

4:30

I have a ponytail and a skateboard. The

4:32

skateboard actually probably helped.

4:34

You would probably be a good commencement speaker

4:36

now, I would think. You're very inspirational.

4:41

I told you, you helped Alex,

4:43

for example, you inspired him. And Louis wants to talk to you

4:45

about your man book. He has thoughts

4:47

about you men and his friends and

4:49

friendship. He's very much

4:51

someone who wants men to be more

4:55

emotional friends. I

4:57

think a lot of young men are mistaking friends

5:00

for real friendship. That's right.

5:03

We're

5:04

online. When I first moved to New York, I

5:06

didn't have friends. I had wingmen. I'm like, I'm new

5:08

to New York. I need to go out. I need partners

5:11

in crime, but I didn't really appreciate

5:14

what it meant to invest in and receive friendship.

5:16

I don't think men in general are very good

5:18

at it. This

5:19

is what Louis was talking about. He's made some

5:21

other friends that are more friends. He

5:24

struggles with it because he's someone who wants

5:27

an emotional friendships with men. He

5:30

wants more from his friends. He wants to expect

5:32

more from his friends than just, hey, dude, let's

5:34

drink or let's go to a strip club or whatever.

5:37

It was a very... I said, you need to talk

5:39

to Scott Galloway about this because it was very... This

5:41

is, I think, what you're writing about a little bit in

5:44

his book. Anyway, he has some thoughts.

5:46

He has some thoughts he'd like to share with you.

5:49

If we run out of ideas, we'll turn to his

5:51

doctorate mother. You

5:54

have to call me Dr. Swisher. Dr. Swisher. Dr.

5:57

Swisher is in the house. Yeah, it was great.

5:59

Lots to talk about, lots has gone on, including

6:02

last night, and of course the HBO Max

6:05

rebrand, which you've been having a good time talking about.

6:07

Oh my God. But today we have so much. I

6:09

want to get to that rebrand first, but

6:11

first, just so you know, we're going to talk today about

6:13

Rhonda Santas and the Elon Musk experience,

6:15

a failure to launch, as they're calling it, or

6:17

disaster. Get it? It's a disaster.

6:21

The surgeon general says social media is a new smoking,

6:23

and we'll take a listener question about the HBO Max

6:25

rebrand, so we're going to get to that in a minute. But

6:28

I want to start with something that's super disturbing

6:30

to me, and it's one of the many things, speaking of Rhonda

6:32

Santas, students that Florida Elementary

6:34

School can no longer read the poem that Amanda Gorman

6:37

read at President Biden's inauguration. It

6:39

was a beautiful poem. The school limited access

6:41

to the poem after a single complaint from

6:43

a single parent. The parent complaint of the poem

6:46

is, quote, not educational and contains, quote,

6:48

indirect hate speech while misidentifying the

6:50

author as Oprah Winfrey. Last

6:53

week, Governor DeSantis signed

6:55

into law a requirement that the school's poll challenge

6:57

books within five days of receiving complaints.

6:59

This is ridiculous.

7:02

Let's listen to part of the poem the parent pointed

7:04

out. Wade, we've braved the

7:07

belly of the beast. We've

7:09

learned that quiet isn't always

7:12

peace. And the norms and

7:14

notions of what just is

7:16

isn't always just-is.

7:21

And yet, the dawn is hours before

7:24

we knew it. Somehow

7:27

we've weathered and witnessed

7:30

a nation that isn't broken

7:33

but simply unfinished.

7:35

Well, she's so impressive. That was impressive.

7:37

I remember that. It was very moving. LGBT

7:42

book bands are increasingly common, but are brought by the

7:44

Washington Post found that a majority came from just 11

7:46

people. 11 people

7:48

in our nation are doing this. The serial complaint

7:50

filers accounted for 6%

7:52

of all challengers, but were responsible for 60%

7:56

of all filings. It's a loud group. And just

7:58

in time for private mental, no. So Target will

8:00

move some of its LGBTQ plus merchandise

8:03

after Backlash threatened its workers' safety.

8:06

The retail has featured Pride products in June for

8:08

more than a decade.

8:09

Well, if you think about what we have

8:11

now, a campaign conducted by certain

8:14

parents and student unions to

8:16

ceremonially ban books,

8:19

books targeted are those seen as subversive

8:22

or representing ideologies opposed

8:24

to a certain viewpoint. Books

8:27

that are mostly written about

8:30

a lot about coming of age, about

8:33

views that are contrary to kind

8:35

of what you will call this

8:37

conservative American Christianity.

8:40

Now what I just said there

8:42

is the exact description. If

8:45

you go to Wikipedia and read

8:47

the first paragraph, but

8:50

take out the word Nazi. What

8:52

I just read is how Wikipedia

8:54

describes the Nazi book burnings. And

8:58

to not call the past

9:01

around how and immediately

9:04

say to yourself,

9:05

this is how it all starts. They're

9:08

targeting, it's thinly veiled. If

9:11

she were a white poet whose

9:14

parents lived in Alabama and

9:17

she drove a pickup truck, would

9:20

they have banned the poem? This

9:22

is such thinly veiled bigotry

9:25

and weirdness. And there's not

9:27

enough people who are old enough or unfortunately

9:30

know a World War II veteran

9:32

or a Holocaust survivor.

9:34

And then you have the world's most powerful man

9:37

saying to a

9:39

famous kind

9:41

of target of anti-Semitism that he hates

9:43

humanity. And we have

9:45

essentially these book burnings, but they can't burn

9:47

books anymore because they're digital, so they just ban them.

9:50

Folks, you know society, Western society

9:53

has been here before and the story doesn't

9:55

end well. It's

9:56

such a small group of people. That's right-wing

9:58

commentator and dickless one. Matt Walsh

10:00

tweeted about his movement, we can't

10:03

boycott every woke company, but we can pick one,

10:05

it hardly matters which, and target it with ruthless

10:07

boycott campaign, claim one scalp,

10:09

and then move on to the next. First of all, I

10:12

don't even want to say about a person like this. He's

10:14

the one that always attacks trans people. He's really

10:16

quite, like, I

10:18

don't even know what to say about him. The less,

10:21

the better. Anyway, it's a very

10:23

strange thing. So few people are involved

10:25

in this. And it's something you talk about a lot, which is the,

10:28

you know, the intolerant minority

10:30

and not even just a minority of the minority

10:33

is doing this. And that's what you have to keep in mind. Most

10:35

people sort of shrug their shoulders. There

10:37

was a great video of, I think it was a target

10:39

employer. And she's like, there's nothing wrong with this pride

10:42

stuff. Like she was handling it well, like,

10:44

and she was sort of perplexed. And this

10:46

guy was being aggressive at her. And like,

10:48

this is, you know, Pito

10:50

and grooming and all this stuff. And she handled it

10:52

beautifully, but was completely

10:54

like, can I help you with something? Do you want

10:56

to buy something? Please leave me alone.

10:59

That kind of stuff. So it's weird. It's just most

11:01

people are like, what are you talking about, you

11:04

stupid person kind of stuff?

11:05

Well, I think, and I think it's

11:07

a lesson for both sides because, I

11:11

mean, at Netflix, when people were upset about

11:13

what Dave Chappelle was saying, Ted

11:15

Sarandis came out and said,

11:17

words are not violence.

11:20

If this offends you and pushing the boundaries, letting

11:22

comics push the boundaries of saying

11:25

uncomfortable things is offensive. You shouldn't

11:27

work here. And I

11:29

think that at the same time, school

11:32

districts

11:34

and the sea of target needs to say, if

11:36

this offends you, you

11:38

shouldn't shop here. So

11:40

there's more of it from the far right, but

11:43

some, just to be fair, some of those dangerous things

11:45

around.

11:45

Come on, Scott. You're doing it again. It's so,

11:48

it's all from the right, right now against trans

11:50

people, against gay people, against black

11:52

people. This is not, you're not seeing

11:54

the left wing march

11:56

into Chick-fil-A and saying,

11:59

you're all too.

11:59

religious, you don't see it, it doesn't happen.

12:02

Or let's have legislation against

12:06

the people of Hobby Lobby. It's just not happening.

12:08

Let me be clear. It's

12:10

much more dangerous, it's much more cruel from the

12:12

right. But there is still an

12:14

emerging narrative and a temptation on

12:16

both sides of the polls to try and shame people

12:19

and deny them of their right to catalyze

12:22

a conversation when you don't agree

12:24

with them. And that if you don't adopt the narrative,

12:27

that you are a bad person and someone

12:29

that is dangerous. That happens from both sides, Cara.

12:32

Yes, but on one side, it is just words,

12:34

as you say, and the other it's action. It's

12:37

actual action. That's

12:38

true. On the far left, they're not passing legislation.

12:40

Yeah, I agree. It's just there's a very

12:43

big difference here. And they've gotten

12:45

taken physically taken the poll. You're doing it again. You're

12:47

doing it again. I'm

12:50

calling Christiane Amanpour. So

12:52

we can discuss this because she said both sides

12:55

is not neutral.

12:55

So ever since you got your doctor,

12:57

you're unbearable. That's Dr.

12:59

Swisher to you. And Dr.

13:02

is in and declaring you sick in the

13:04

head. Anyway, this is going

13:06

to go on because this is how they operate

13:09

on the fringes and into the middle,

13:11

trying to cause us all so

13:13

much divisiveness. And let me just say Amanda Gorman,

13:16

your poem was beautiful and deserves

13:18

widespread reading. It probably will sell a lot more

13:20

copies because these imbeciles target it. Anyway,

13:23

in tech news, Meta will sell Giphy.

13:25

And this is interesting. Shutterstock for $53

13:27

million. That's the first

13:28

time it had to sell off an asset because of antitrust

13:31

regulations. It originally bought it for $300 million.

13:35

It was ordered by UK competition authorities to divest.

13:37

They had fought it for a bit. You know,

13:39

I guess it's not working for them. And

13:41

they had to divest it anyway in this

13:44

year of efficiency and begin another round

13:46

of layoffs Wednesday, by the way, targeting 10,000

13:48

business employees. Lost

13:51

a lot of money here. Well, that's

13:53

the way it goes. I think they probably

13:56

were like, oh, well, let's

13:58

just

13:58

move along. Yeah, this is,

14:01

you know, okay, we bought something, it didn't

14:03

work. It's an easy give. It's

14:06

not, I mean, I was never entirely

14:08

sure. I

14:10

guess that I'm trying to go back to the original justification

14:12

for purchasing it for half a billion bucks, that

14:14

if you have an attribute- Explain what Giphy is for people

14:17

so they don't think about it. Well, it's essentially,

14:19

it creates, it's those wonderful little

14:22

videos or memes that you can insert

14:24

into a tweet or a piece of online

14:27

content. But it's a way of differentiating

14:29

a piece of content and it's really fun and

14:31

it's really interesting. And if you type in Kara

14:33

Swisher commencement speech, I

14:35

don't know what you get. That would be

14:37

interesting.

14:38

Nothing, nothing. It doesn't show up

14:40

on Twitter, FYI. So go ahead. But

14:43

I guess the idea was if we go vertical and we own this

14:45

media company that gives, differentiates

14:48

our content versus content posted on another

14:50

platform, but I guess they were never

14:52

able to justify or they were worried about raising any trust

14:54

flags if they didn't let people post,

14:57

use Giphy for other platforms. Because my understanding

14:59

is I can go on Giphy and post it on other platforms.

15:01

So, but yeah, 90% of client

15:04

destruction and value, good for, I

15:06

mean, the good employees at Giphy built something

15:08

really cool and they had Facebook shareholders

15:11

overpay for it by 10X. Yeah.

15:13

And there we have it. And then move along. Let's

15:15

probably find it, shut our stock. Those things are, I use

15:18

them all the time. I like them. You love them. You

15:20

went on a Giphy orgy this

15:22

morning with your review of the DeSantis

15:24

thing, which we'll come back to. I thought it

15:26

was a pretty good review. That was a pretty good- Did you

15:28

say so yourself? If I say so, it was very

15:30

doctoral. I'm thinking of changing

15:32

it to a doctorate on fuckups.

15:35

We'll talk about that in a minute. Jack Sweeney,

15:37

the man who ran a Twitter account tracking Elon Musk's private

15:39

jet is now focused on Governor Ron DeSantis'

15:41

movie. Ron DeSantis uses a lot of

15:44

people's private planes, by the way. Users

15:46

can now follow the flight path of DeSantis' private

15:48

plane on DeSantis' jet on Twitter. The account

15:51

displays public flight data with a 24 hour

15:53

delay. That keeps it in line with Twitter's rules.

15:56

Last December, Twitter banned the Elon jet account

15:58

for posting

15:58

coordinates in near-

15:59

real time. This may be the

16:02

only way that voters see the governor's travel. Earlier

16:04

this month, DeSantis signed a law protecting

16:06

travel records of state leaders from

16:09

public disclosure. How ridiculous.

16:11

Democrats have criticized the bill, everybody should,

16:13

saying it doesn't allow for transparency and allows donors

16:15

to have secret influence ahead of a presidential

16:18

campaign. That law

16:20

really perplexed me. Whether

16:22

or not some of these travels should be public, if taxpayers

16:25

are paying in a lot of places, the

16:27

governor uses private jets

16:29

and turns it into a Clarence

16:32

Thomas situation. So what

16:34

do you think about that? I think you need to separate.

16:36

I think if you're flying, if you're using

16:38

public transportation that's taxpayer funded,

16:40

there

16:41

should be a different set

16:44

of transparency requirements than if you're a private

16:46

individual flying your own plane. And

16:48

where I do have sympathy for, you know.

16:50

But if he's using rich people's planes and

16:53

their like in-kind donations

16:55

to go to campaign events, that's

16:56

kind of different. Well, yeah. Then

16:58

my understanding is the laws that you have to, or

17:00

it used to be, you had to document

17:03

that donation as a campaign contribution and then

17:05

it becomes public domain. Where

17:08

I'm headed is,

17:09

I'm not sure we should be allowed to track

17:12

people by their license plate.

17:13

If you, the tolls, people

17:15

pay tolls on highways. That's technically

17:18

somewhere, someone could probably reverse engineer

17:21

it and find your traffic. If you can track

17:23

someone's plane, shouldn't you be able to track them in their

17:25

car? Yeah. So I don't,

17:28

I'm not sure you should be able to track someone by plane.

17:31

The head of the finance department, NYU Stern, who's

17:34

brilliant, his name's David Earmack. And

17:38

he did this fantastic research 10, 15 years

17:40

ago where because it's public

17:42

information, he was tracking the

17:43

tail numbers of CEOs. And

17:46

he found that when CEOs were

17:48

traveling to a vacation spot the day after their

17:50

earnings, and you could see where they were planning to go

17:53

with the flight manifest, it meant that the earnings were

17:55

going to be positive. Oh, wow. Because

17:57

if a guy's headed to Anguilla the day after his earnings.

17:59

It means he's about to post good

18:02

numbers. Yeah. And it was just such

18:04

amazing research, but anyways,

18:07

reverse engineering it to here. I

18:09

don't know if that should be public domain

18:11

if you're a private citizen flying

18:13

your own plane. I get your point.

18:15

I see your point there. I do. I think

18:17

it's, people are gonna do this anyway, and

18:20

this is sort of stunt and pranky at

18:22

rich people. It could be dangerous, but if it's 24

18:24

hours, I don't care if it's 24 hours, they feel,

18:27

it's like reporters digging up. He flew here and then

18:30

flew there. But

18:33

people that are public servants really do need

18:35

to say where they get their private planes from.

18:38

It seems like

18:39

most people would be like,

18:41

yes. Yeah, and we get to say Elizabeth Warren, while

18:43

she engages in class warfare,

18:45

is using private jets to get places. I think that

18:47

stuff's fun. I think that should be open season.

18:50

Absolutely, and it often is, is an

18:52

attack vector. But in

18:54

this case, Ron, you're

18:57

such a chode. Anyway, and

18:59

speaking of a chode, let's get to our first big

19:02

story.

19:06

On Wednesday, Governor Ron DeSantis officially

19:08

kicked off his campaign for the presidency in

19:10

a Twitter space with Elon Musk. But

19:13

like a SpaceX rocket launch, things

19:15

didn't go quite as planned, failure

19:17

to launch. The event started late, had

19:19

technical difficulties, and drew fewer than 600,000 listeners

19:23

who were crashing completely. It

19:25

relaunched a few minutes later and

19:27

had several different problems. People kept getting thrown

19:30

off and this and that. Ran for about an hour,

19:32

but didn't ever regain its full audience. People

19:34

are pegging

19:35

it at 150 to 200,000 maybe, concurrent

19:40

users. And of course, the Twitter

19:42

people are like, oh, there's millions, but they're

19:44

trying to do it over time. Twitter users

19:46

called the event a disaster,

19:48

get it DeSantis, so did Trump and others.

19:51

Everyone took advantage of it. Trump had funny tweets,

19:53

Biden had funny tweets, John Stewart had funny

19:56

tweets, Musk backer Jason Callicanis

19:58

said it was a DDoS attack.

19:59

maybe, and no evidence just made

20:02

it up. They made up a lot of things saying this

20:04

was the biggest online event and then everyone posted

20:06

what the actual biggest online events, live

20:08

events were. Buzzfeed's exploding

20:11

watermelon in 2016 attracted

20:13

more than double. And Travis Scott's Fortnite

20:16

concert was 12 million.

20:18

So there's lots and lots of other things that have

20:20

been successful. He

20:22

would have been better doing an event that

20:25

everybody covered and then going on Fox. It

20:27

was tiny, tiny, tiny audience

20:29

for this thing and also audio disaster.

20:32

So any thoughts? I do

20:34

have thoughts, but I want you to go first here because

20:37

you wrote what I thought was a really interesting tweet storm.

20:39

I want your take and then I'll respond.

20:41

Well, let me go over it very quickly. I was

20:43

reacting something Linda Yakarino

20:46

wrote, which she talked about as

20:48

a rare.

20:49

Let me guess, she thought it was a success. I'm just

20:51

going to go out on a limb here. Yes, she did. She didn't mention any

20:53

of the problems. She said things

20:55

like, kind of empty words, freedom

20:57

of speech is priceless. No one doesn't have

20:59

freedom of speech here. Rare and unscripted

21:02

conversation, it was completely scripted, but

21:04

she liked it. She's going to be CEO there.

21:06

I think you got her with

21:09

a whiskey, she wouldn't say that. And

21:11

I made the point that if she was running

21:13

NBC at the time and the cameras fell off, she'd

21:15

be apologizing and giving givebacks to advertisers

21:18

right away. She'd be wondering what

21:20

the fuck happened here. That's the kind of person she

21:22

was and not pretending it was anything

21:25

else. She has to do that, right? But

21:27

she definitely would be the one calming down advertisers

21:30

and not using her credibility

21:32

to not be honest about this business performance

21:34

because they're trying to become a media company, right? This company

21:36

is trying to become a media company and it

21:38

was a fuck up. That's just what it was. And

21:41

it also took the attention away

21:43

from DeSantis because the medium

21:45

was the message, right? This medium doesn't

21:47

work. When they did get down

21:50

to

21:51

it, David Sachs, who was the moderator

21:53

called him a junior varsity moderator. And

21:55

Elon talked more about themselves and

21:58

not DeSantis. And he was

21:59

sort of, it's like a bad, I

22:02

think Joe Rogan's very talented and

22:04

it's very entertaining. This was like Joe

22:06

Rogan on a really bad night. Then

22:09

they kept attacking the press, that's their favorite thing.

22:11

They seem

22:12

obsessed with calling us irrelevant and then never stopping

22:15

to talk

22:16

about the media, which is weird. I

22:18

like unscripted conversations. I like

22:20

when they're like people get to talk. I

22:23

had a Twitter spaces. Mine always had

22:25

glitch problems and they were very small

22:27

in comparison and it wasn't that much smaller

22:29

than this actually. You know, when we did,

22:31

when this stuff happens, it's not good.

22:34

I was comparing it to my Mark Zuckerberg

22:36

interview with Walt where he sweat.

22:38

That wasn't a good interview. He sweat, it was

22:41

bad. It didn't say anything. It had no insight,

22:43

it was just sad. Okay, he

22:45

gets nervous,

22:46

I suppose, but he went on to build the biggest

22:48

company ever. So what? If

22:51

they really wanna do media and they don't have to be reporters,

22:53

they have to do a better job. They have to be prepared.

22:55

The tech has to work. And they have

22:57

to stop like saying everything

23:00

was great.

23:01

First off, I'd like to announce that I'm running for the

23:03

open senate seat of Florida and I'm using the premier

23:06

technology, Escalator. I'm

23:08

gonna come down and Escalator or I'm gonna

23:10

launch it on Foursquare and

23:12

a dozen people showed up and crashed the site. Look,

23:16

in the bottom line is this was really bad

23:18

for the governor because one, anytime

23:21

you get anywhere near Elon Musk,

23:23

he thinks he's God.

23:25

And the first 30 minutes, any

23:28

question he would turn to himself and talk about

23:30

Twitter. In addition,

23:32

it was bad for Musk because do you really wanna

23:34

get in a car

23:36

from the guy who brings

23:38

you, I can't host a podcast, the

23:41

technology glitches here? And

23:43

it was the worst of both

23:45

worlds. They tried to pretend it was unscripted. It clearly

23:48

wasn't. They had the governor. Didn't

23:50

say anything. They had a series

23:52

of bait questions from people including

23:54

someone who's supposedly gonna be a possible VP

23:58

candidate. And it was bad for Musk.

23:59

The story today

24:02

isn't about the themes he talked about.

24:04

It isn't about him. The story

24:06

today is just about what a fuckup it was.

24:10

And the thing about Governor DeSantis and

24:12

his office is today they have been

24:14

very disciplined about message.

24:17

Well, not today.

24:18

Since this presidential campaign, I think they've

24:20

fucked up with the Disney thing. They've done a series

24:22

of fuckups. He's very, but he's

24:25

been, his comms group, I

24:27

don't agree with the message, but they've been very

24:29

disciplined around kind

24:31

of format and venue.

24:35

It was such a missed opportunity because

24:38

the reality is, and we don't like

24:40

to say this on the left, Florida is an

24:42

enormous success story. And

24:44

if he'd gone to

24:47

Tampa, St. Pete, when you go to cities

24:49

in Florida right now, you're surprised at the upside.

24:52

You go to Tampa, St. Pete, and you go to the Dali Museum

24:54

and you're like, Jesus, this is a great city. You go to Orlando,

24:57

you see the economic vibrancy. You go to Miami

24:59

with even some of the impact problems it

25:01

has, it's still the coolest city in Latin

25:03

America. And it happens to be in America.

25:07

I mean, Florida is, there's just no getting

25:09

around it. I

25:10

don't know why he didn't focus on that. It's a success

25:12

story. He should have done an Amy

25:14

Klobuchar-like announcement that was very

25:17

kind of very Florida. He should have done it

25:19

from a great success story in Florida.

25:22

And he has a lot to work with. And the

25:24

reason why he's gonna be a formidable candidate

25:26

is there's just no getting around it. Florida is doing really

25:28

well on most dimensions. Now,

25:31

in terms of social justice- Except

25:32

for the book banning, but go ahead. Thank

25:35

you for that, Dr. Swisher. Anytime.

25:37

For people on the ground and living in Florida, they're

25:39

like, I'm getting a great value here. I have a nice

25:41

quality of life. I have low crime.

25:44

I have good schools. And by the way, I pay no state

25:46

taxes. That's just

25:48

a winning value proposition. But instead

25:50

of focusing on his assets, he

25:53

travels to Elon Musk on a platform

25:55

that breaks down. I mean, that's the story

25:58

today, was everything that went wrong.

25:59

This was a real

26:02

misstep because he does have a lot to work

26:04

with and he didn't use any of it. Well,

26:06

it's a me. I'm not so sure. There's a lot

26:08

of problems in Florida, by the way, and there's been lots

26:10

of documentation. But fine, it's fine. It's

26:12

a very vibrant state. So are many states. But

26:15

he does. He should be leaning into his strengths,

26:18

no question. He cannot help.

26:21

I think he's probably doing this so he can suck up to him

26:23

and get money from donors, like

26:25

Elon and his whole group of people around him. That would

26:27

be my assumption. Being

26:30

a lap dog to a billionaire is not a great look

26:32

for someone who's supposed to be strong. I think

26:34

he's been messing up a lot

26:35

with the Disney thing. Air,

26:38

unforced air. This was unforced air. And

26:41

it gives people like Trump, who is so skilled

26:44

at this, so skilled at these kinds. He had

26:46

stuff out immediately and it was funny. You

26:48

know what I mean? It was well done. And it was a

26:50

good slap, slap a do on this guy. And

26:53

he can continue. And now they've got a new name,

26:55

Disaster, right? They've got a new. He

26:58

finally found it wasn't meatball wrong. It wasn't

27:00

dysanctomony as this disaster. And

27:03

so he was doing all this talking with they

27:05

weren't challenging

27:05

him. And then we had to hear what David

27:07

Sachs and Elon Musk think about things.

27:09

Really, they need to stop talking those

27:12

two. Agreed, but this is the governor's shot

27:15

and his opportunity. And that is,

27:17

we consistently overestimate

27:20

ideological issues and social issues impact

27:22

on people and they go in the voting booth. And we underestimate

27:24

quality of life issues. And

27:27

there's just a large swath of Americans that will

27:29

vote for whoever they think is gonna put more money in their pockets. That's

27:31

correct. And then

27:33

I don't know if you remember, Mayor Frank Jordan,

27:35

remember him? Oh, in San Francisco.

27:38

Rudy Giuliani, deep, incandescent

27:42

blue cities. And once

27:44

every 20 or 30 years, the

27:47

quality of life gets so bad, dead,

27:49

and they vote a quote unquote quality

27:51

of life person. There are a lot of

27:53

states and cities that post COVID,

27:55

the quality of life has taken a big hit.

27:58

And that's what the governor should be. focusing

28:00

on. Don't know why he's not. Why is he hanging

28:02

out with Elon? What's going on? Well,

28:04

you know, Elon does get, Elon, look,

28:08

he probably thought we're gonna get so much attention.

28:10

It's a new medium. For Elon. For Elon.

28:13

For Elon. Agreed. But you can see

28:15

why they thought this would be a good idea. The

28:17

execution here was

28:19

abysmal.

28:21

I mean, it sounded like a podcast in 2012

28:24

where they said, we're gonna try this new thing called podcasting,

28:26

bear with us. Yeah.

28:28

I think when you stand next to Elon, no one's looking

28:30

at you. They're looking at this freak. He's a black

28:33

hole of attention. Attention, exactly.

28:35

One of the things that's interesting is right-wing personalities,

28:37

of course. And then it was sad when they're trying

28:39

to say it was good. Just say it was bad. Just please

28:42

stop. And then they were all hurt about

28:44

it. Like, oh, the media is going crazy. We're like, nah, we're just

28:46

pointing out you suck. Right-wing personalities

28:49

are going all in on Twitter. This week,

28:51

The Daily Wire announced it'll upload full episodes

28:53

of his podcast to Twitter, which Elon was asking

28:55

him to do. Tucker Carlson still plans to host

28:57

a show. He reportedly is rebuilding

29:00

his home studio after Fox News repossessed the

29:02

set and equipment. God,

29:04

it costs them more to go get it than the stuff

29:07

costs. Oh, God. You know, there's a lot

29:09

of right-wing creators going there,

29:11

but this brand reputation just

29:13

took a massive hit. Right now, the

29:15

Axios Harris brand reputation found that Twitter

29:18

placed 97th out of 100 companies. I

29:20

don't know what the last three were, but even though

29:23

the world's biggest ad agency said it no longer considers

29:25

Twitter to be a, quote, high-risk platform for advertisers,

29:28

but that's just because they're giving Linda a chance.

29:30

Like, the whole announcement, it

29:32

was a really good idea. It could have been a win for

29:34

both of them if it had been well-produced.

29:37

This was a good idea for Twitter. It

29:40

was a good idea for DeSantis. The execution

29:42

was, I would be furious

29:45

if I were the DeSantis folks, and

29:47

I would be enraged if I

29:49

were Musk. He looks, wait,

29:52

you want me? I'm sorry, you're trying

29:54

to create autonomous driving technology

29:56

and you can't do a fucking podcast? Yeah,

29:59

yeah.

29:59

Apparently there was, I'm excited to hear read

30:02

the reporting out of this. Apparently there wasn't much planning.

30:04

I just, I can tell you when they had lots of people,

30:07

it was always glitchy. Like what, hello,

30:09

what, hang up, re-hang up. You've

30:11

been on those things with me

30:13

when I did them. There was 200,000 people supposedly

30:16

that listened to it, that were stuck

30:18

around for the 20 minutes.

30:20

What you and I are doing right now,

30:22

we'll have more people listen. Yeah,

30:24

Ron, come on our show. So

30:28

the DeSantis announcement

30:30

gets fewer people than

30:33

the announcement of Kara Swisher's doctorate.

30:36

Yes, yes, he should have partnered. They should have

30:38

partnered with news outlets. Just their

30:40

constant vituperative hatred of

30:42

the media. And of course that means they're obsessed

30:44

with the media, is really getting in

30:46

their way. Just build something good, just build a

30:48

good product.

30:49

And in contrast to that, as much as

30:51

this was a disaster for DeSantis, you

30:55

know what was the victory? Was Trump

30:57

on CNN? He just owned them, he

30:59

just owned them. And it was, I hate

31:01

to say it, it was really- He's

31:02

the OG, he's the OG on that

31:04

stuff. He just totally manipulated the

31:06

medium. And by the way,

31:08

they had an intelligent person trying

31:11

their best to fact

31:13

check a serial liar. They filled the audience

31:16

with sycophants. And this

31:18

was just,

31:19

it was just, okay, this

31:22

is a shit show, 1984 called and

31:24

wants its technology back. Honestly,

31:26

someone tweeted that, DeSantis is hoping waiting

31:29

around the basket that Trump goes to jail. That's what

31:31

would be his end, right? But I think Trump could

31:33

beat him from jail easily. From

31:35

jail? With his hands tied, shackled

31:37

behind his back.

31:38

I actually think the governor's more formidable

31:41

candidate than people are saying right now.

31:43

I used to think, I was thinking maybe he's done.

31:46

I actually think he's got a lot of talking

31:48

points. All right, Mr. Beto O'Rourke's

31:50

boyfriend. Okay, we'll see how that works out.

31:53

I do not. Hello, Dreamy. I

31:55

think that was a nice pick. And then who'd you pick after

31:57

that? And who did Kara pick the whole time? Biden.

31:59

I think he's, we're gonna take it, but

32:02

you think he's more formidable. I think he's a char, he

32:04

makes Nixon look charming. That's hard, he's very

32:06

wooden. I think he's charmless. He looks like he has

32:09

no friends, he's Mr. Straightjacket.

32:11

He literally looks like he has no friends. Like

32:13

speaking of men friends, he has no friends

32:16

at all. No friends. No friends,

32:18

like, and why would, and he looks uninterested

32:20

in people. Like he doesn't like people and I'm

32:22

sorry, you're not being president if you don't like people.

32:25

And technocrats are fine, just go run

32:27

a state, that's

32:27

great. Let's have him and Kamala

32:30

Harris on the same ticket and we'll call it, brightens up

32:32

a room by leaving a ticket. I don't know, you can do

32:34

better Republicans, honestly. Anyway,

32:37

let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk

32:39

about the Surgeon General's new warning and take a

32:41

listener question about HBO's latest streaming

32:43

rebrand, which Scott has a lot to say about.

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35:29

Scott,

35:31

we're back with our second big story. The Surgeon General

35:33

says that social media may pose risks to young users.

35:36

You're kidding. In a new report, Dr.

35:38

Vivek Murthy says that, there

35:40

are ample indicators that social media can

35:42

have a profound risk of harm to the mental

35:44

health and wellbeing of children and adolescents.

35:47

The report calls on tech companies to enforce age

35:50

restriction and create strict default

35:52

settings for young users around privacy and

35:54

safety. It also calls on governments to create health

35:56

and safety standards for tech platforms.

35:59

the report didn't condemn social media use

36:02

for all young people, and it didn't define what healthy

36:05

social media would look like. I think a lot of people

36:07

who have been in this for a while were a little bit underwhelmed,

36:10

but it was long in the making. We

36:12

talked to the Surgeon General on this topic. In March

36:14

of last year, Scott asked him about age-gating

36:16

specifically. Here's what he said.

36:19

Part of the challenge we have, though, Scott, and you're

36:21

getting at the heart of it with your question, is that we

36:23

actually need data to understand the

36:25

impact on children, right? We have some

36:27

data. We have alarming rates of depression and anxiety

36:30

that have increased in our kids. We have clear

36:32

evidence, in fact, that the

36:35

suicide rate has increased significantly in the 10

36:37

years prior to the pandemic in young

36:39

people. We have record numbers of young people

36:41

who are saying they feel persistent feelings of hopelessness

36:44

and sadness. We know that things are getting worse for

36:46

our kids.

36:47

He stopped short of calling for age. He said

36:49

a lot of words, not age-gating, which

36:52

you asked him specifically about. The Surgeon General has the power

36:54

to recommend, but not enforce, I guess. I

36:56

think a lot of people felt he could have been stronger, I guess.

37:00

Facebook responded they had already done some of the things he

37:02

suggested, like automatically sending accounts to private

37:04

if a user is under 16. Your

37:07

thoughts on this?

37:08

I think Surgeon General Vivek Mursi has already the

37:10

most significant Surgeon General we've had in decades.

37:13

All right. Yeah, tax companies. And

37:16

usually the Surgeon General doesn't do that. Well,

37:19

cigarette. He is attacking probably,

37:22

in my estimation, what is the most

37:25

dangerous emission of our time, and that is rage and

37:27

loneliness from these companies. If

37:29

you read the actual report, it is steeped in rigor

37:32

and research.

37:33

I know this personally. I'm low

37:36

on the totem pole of experts around this stuff. He

37:39

and his team called me several times to try and

37:41

really get to the heart of these issues.

37:44

Several of my colleagues have been contacted by him. He

37:47

is a serious person doing serious work.

37:49

He talks a lot about his own struggles with

37:51

loneliness. As a young man, he's

37:53

a father, and it's all

37:55

steeped in

37:57

academia and his

37:59

experience as a doctor. This is someone who is

38:02

doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing.

38:04

He is trying to prevent a tragedy

38:06

that comes.

38:06

He's raising the thing. Your friend Jonathan

38:09

Hite did not think it was enough, for sure. Others

38:11

did. You know what I mean? Like they wanted an even stronger

38:14

thing, cigarette level, I guess. And

38:16

I get that.

38:16

He doesn't have that authority. He has the

38:19

public forum. Yeah.

38:21

And what surgeon general has raised

38:24

an issue, has gotten more attention

38:26

around an issue of more importance in the last 40 years.

38:29

I'm just telling you a lot of people don't know. It's

38:31

largely a symbolic position where they stand behind

38:33

the president when they're actually doing things.

38:35

In the outfit. In their outfit. And then they go on to

38:37

sell Life Alert. I mean, it's just, this

38:39

has been a position, he is hands

38:42

down

38:43

addressing an issue

38:45

that is difficult. He's doing it with rigor. And

38:48

I also think loneliness

38:50

with AI, people are

38:52

going to start withdrawing even further, especially

38:55

young men. And to what your

38:57

son's comments were about. And he's directly

38:59

saying, well, I've already parroted one of his lines.

39:01

He gave me the line, people are

39:04

mistaking friends for friendship.

39:06

And he talks about the need for

39:09

third places where we make investments

39:11

in things like parks and leagues and bring people back

39:13

together. And the thing I like about him

39:16

is that he does stuff with grace

39:18

and he errs on the side. He's a classy

39:21

doctor like myself. He never makes

39:23

personal attacks. He never

39:25

tries to inflame the other side.

39:27

He's just like science.

39:28

No, he's a very measured science focus.

39:31

But he's sincere. He is seen

39:33

as a good actor. That's earnest. It is trying

39:36

to protect the well-being of our children and

39:38

increase-

39:38

I think he should do this all the time and be very

39:41

firm about it. I just feel like you've got to really

39:43

lean into this and I have, if it's going to be like cigarettes,

39:45

you're going to do the age gating and being a leader.

39:47

You can still be a leader even if you don't have enforcement.

39:50

A bit like press, press, press, press

39:53

and a little less nice. Like, look, people,

39:56

that kind of stuff. We'll see where it goes. He

39:58

always does try to tend to find the middle. He seems

40:00

like that kind of person. But in this case, I

40:02

think he could have even more impact if he

40:04

was highly specific and really weighed it in there,

40:06

even if it's not his to weight into. And

40:10

this age gating has a lot of issues.

40:14

It's nuanced. And they could have more data about

40:16

our kids, their IDs, birth certificates. It's

40:19

different than, say, porn or cigarettes,

40:22

because that's a physical thing. Kids go in and

40:24

buy cigarettes. This is

40:26

digital information online using a digital

40:29

product. So speaking of regulating

40:31

social media, TikTok is suing Montana, not

40:33

a surprise. We said they probably would, violating

40:35

the First Amendment. So we're a bunch of TikTok

40:38

users, First Amendment. Montana's going to lose.

40:40

No proof. They shouldn't be here, as we said.

40:43

But the problem for TikTok is there was

40:45

a report in The Times this week says that TikTok

40:47

user data is regularly shared in Slack-like

40:50

tool that employees use to address user complaints.

40:53

The data can include users with driver's licenses and

40:55

accessible to employees in China. This

40:58

is the issue, even if they're not malevolent, it seeps right

41:00

through.

41:00

Yeah, but you said it. This

41:03

creates unnecessary momentum for TikTok,

41:05

because people are busy and all they'll

41:07

see is that the Supreme Court or a court,

41:09

not the Supreme Court, overturn the decision

41:11

to ban TikTok. And people

41:14

say, oh, it's illegal. They shouldn't

41:16

do it. And no, they'll decide

41:18

that a state can't

41:21

overturn a ban on media, that

41:23

that's a bad idea. This

41:26

was an unforced error, a purely

41:28

political move by someone who should be an operator,

41:31

the governor of Montana. But TikTok,

41:34

I mean, it's already happening.

41:37

I think Senator Warner's Restrict

41:39

Act made a lot of sense. They were good

41:42

actors here. And I'm worried it's losing

41:44

momentum. TikTok is going to the

41:46

tried and true playbook, and that is just wait them out.

41:48

We're like a cat. The public and our elected

41:50

officials are like a cat chasing a dot. And it's just

41:53

like, wear them out,

41:55

and then they'll need a nap. And then have some dumb person

41:57

like the governor of Montana do something. Yes.

42:00

Let me just reiterate, TikTok

42:03

is a national security threat. It

42:05

is the ultimate propaganda tool. The people running TikTok

42:08

in the United States deserve it to be really wealthy.

42:11

They're good people who have

42:13

built an amazing product. There is no sunlight

42:16

between a Chinese company and the CCP. And

42:18

the CCP is now running the largest streaming network

42:20

that is bigger than all other streaming networks combined

42:23

for people under the age of 25. And

42:25

every day, our next generation

42:27

of military civic nonprofit and business leaders are

42:29

going to feel a little shittier about America because

42:32

the CCP has its sum on any

42:35

scale

42:36

around content reaching our young people. Yet

42:38

absolutely needs to be banned or spun.

42:41

And we can't let up here. We can't

42:43

move on to the next thing. Exactement,

42:46

exactement, as I like to

42:48

say, exactement. I'm

42:50

also a French doctor. Anyway, let

42:52

us a pivot to a listener question just

42:55

in your wheelhouse, Scott Galloway.

42:56

You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm

42:58

gonna be a mailman. You've got mail.

43:01

Hi, this is Emily from Phoenix, Arizona.

43:04

I just wanted to hear Kara and Scott's

43:07

take on HBO Max transforming

43:10

its

43:11

brand to just Max.

43:14

My friends and I are making

43:16

fun of this relentlessly and

43:19

also just scratching our head because

43:21

the HBO brand is,

43:23

in our opinion,

43:26

one of the best out there is certainly

43:29

as far as television

43:31

goes. So changing it to

43:33

Max just seems

43:35

very bizarre and it kind of seems like

43:37

what's the reason for that and

43:40

are they the stupidest

43:41

company ever? So thank you so

43:43

much, appreciate it.

43:46

Oh, I'm gonna let you go on, but I have

43:48

to say, I was at CNN this week because

43:50

of the DeSantis stuff. I

43:53

saw the Max thing and it doesn't look good. They

43:56

took out all this stuff and there's these big Max things.

43:58

I brought you stickers, Max.

43:59

stickers they have lying around. It's

44:02

jarring when you see it, I have to say. And it's

44:04

not jarring in a good way. Like, ooh, attractive.

44:06

It's ooh, unattractive. And I actually,

44:09

everybody thought that in the lobby.

44:12

Everyone was like, no, this is

44:14

not pleasing to me. And

44:16

again, there's the skin-o-max thing that we like to

44:18

talk about. And HBO is great. And I love that

44:21

someone from Phoenix is like, are they

44:23

the stupidest company? I love that these people are

44:25

sitting around thinking about it. But your

44:28

thoughts, Scott, you have a lot of them.

44:30

Well, I started a brand strategy

44:32

firm. I've taught brand strategy for 20 years.

44:34

It's hard to think of a

44:37

stupid or move. Brands

44:39

like this take decades to build. And I have

44:41

a real bias here because some of the

44:43

most

44:44

moving moments, I think, in the history of television,

44:46

whether it's the Prince of Dorns saying, I

44:48

will be your champion to Tyrion Lannister

44:51

or the mother in Six Feet Under,

44:53

looking at the photos of her family and break, you

44:55

know, and sobbing. I just think HBO

44:58

has,

44:59

is literally one of the core associations

45:01

of a brand built over decades, is

45:03

we have assembled a culture of creativity that is

45:05

fearless in storytelling and

45:07

moves people and creates...

45:10

If you were

45:12

to try and embody the zeitgeist of

45:14

America, cultural America

45:17

over the last 40 years, somewhere

45:19

in that word cloud would be the letters H-B-N-O.

45:22

And you're going to turn that into Max. And the

45:24

only reason they can come up with is people

45:27

are confused. We need something that's more literal

45:29

that explains what this actually is. HBO,

45:31

we shouldn't lead with HBO. We have so many

45:33

other things, right? Okay. So are people going

45:35

to mistake the Sopranos for a show

45:37

about singers? So we're going to turn it into the big

45:39

mafia show. I mean,

45:42

this is... Matt Sushita is going to turn

45:44

their brand name to shit. Yeah. I

45:46

had Vox. Ox. Vox is

45:49

Ox? I went crazy last night.

45:50

You did. You looked like you were doing

45:53

edibles and thinking up names. And I'm sure

45:55

people will get used to it, but it's not a happy

45:57

beforehand transition, right? Remember when

45:59

Airbnb...

45:59

Did that thing ever thought it looked like a vagina? I

46:02

don't remember that. Yeah. It could go

46:04

away, I guess, and you just get used to staring at the vagina.

46:07

But this is companies and organizations

46:10

pray that

46:11

over several generations they

46:13

can build intangible associations

46:16

of this quality and the steps.

46:17

So how did it happen? How did it happen?

46:20

I have a feeling that David Zaso's like, what? What?

46:22

Discovery. Why is

46:24

HBO there? I can see it coming right from

46:26

the top. I think the majority

46:28

of bad decisions in corporate America are made

46:31

by guys in midlife crisis and it's ego. And

46:33

this guy comes from the discovery side of the house and

46:36

thought that Discovery was an amazing brand. And

46:38

if I'm going to give up Discovery and we want something

46:41

new, and not only that, we need something new

46:43

that I'm the CEO of. I don't think he wants

46:45

to give any credit to the guys.

46:48

I mean, Wells Fargo was bought by Norwest, a

46:50

boring mortgage company in Minneapolis, but they were

46:52

smart enough to know if we're going to pay this kind of money, we

46:55

need to go with the right brand and they change it to Wells

46:57

Fargo. Right? Dayton Hudson had this

46:59

little growth company called Target and they said, you

47:01

know what? Our kid is now bigger and stronger

47:03

than we are. We're going to call the whole company

47:06

Target.

47:06

People don't

47:09

make dumb moves like this. They go, these things

47:11

are incredibly hard to build. Why? Where do

47:12

you think it's going to go? Will it matter? We'll just

47:14

hate it. Just get used to it and hate it. A

47:17

lot of people feel it looks like the branding, the

47:19

fonts look like women

47:20

know this. It looks like MaxiPads ads, but

47:22

go ahead. It'll be seen as an

47:24

example of where David

47:27

Zasloff screwed up. The whole industry

47:29

is under attack right now. So consolidation,

47:31

you can understand the strategy operationally around trying

47:33

to bring it all. I can see the beginning of this conversation.

47:36

I think he probably dominated it and everyone shut up. And

47:38

he decided, I'll

47:40

bet you anything he made this decision because any

47:42

consultant, Any consultant,

47:45

anyone in the marketing department with an IQ over 80 said,

47:48

shouldn't we think about it being HBO

47:51

if we're only going to pick one brand? Shouldn't we go with the brand?

47:53

That means quality and great storytelling

47:56

and the ability to capture the

47:59

moment in the industry.

47:59

instead we're going to call it Max. I

48:02

mean, you know what they should have called it? Zazz. Zazz.

48:05

Zazz hands. There's a song a little bit of Zazz.

48:08

Yeah. This is just literally

48:10

every brand strategist. My

48:12

mentor who taught me everything. I know about brand

48:14

strategy. David Ocker is literally just

48:17

sitting there with his head in his hands.

48:19

Yeah. Yeah. But when Dotson

48:21

became Nissan, that made absolutely no

48:23

sense. But you're used to it. Does it

48:25

ultimately, you're a brand person. Ultimately, people get used

48:28

to it, right? They'll be like, oh, it's Max, right?

48:30

Yeah. But it's like ultimately they get used to

48:32

a shittier product. I mean, it's just

48:35

this is, he basically

48:37

took HBO. If

48:40

you had $10 billion. Yeah. And

48:42

you tried to recreate a brand like

48:45

HBO, you probably couldn't do it. It'd

48:47

be one in 10 chance you could do it. So

48:49

he's taken

48:50

tens of billions of dollars, or at least billions

48:52

in equity, and he's taken it into the street and

48:55

created a fire to warm his

48:57

ego.

48:58

Yeah. Oh, nice. Because he didn't invent HBO.

49:01

He invented something else. This

49:03

is whenever you can always really

49:06

brain dead moves, can always be reverse

49:08

engineered to a guy in his

49:10

50s or 60s, who is making a

49:12

decision from ego, not from business

49:14

or shareholder value. This is

49:17

one of those moves. This is one of those decisions

49:19

where I actually think, and the board should not dictate

49:22

strategy. They should, generally speaking, not get involved

49:24

in operations. But someone on the board who actually

49:26

understands branding and assets. Stop

49:28

it. Should say, you're taking billions

49:31

of dollars, and you're emulating

49:33

it. Yeah. Yeah. What are you

49:35

doing?

49:36

Disney would never do this. And

49:38

by the way, they have a name Marvel. If you change theirs to

49:40

Marvel, that was going to be the name of MSN

49:44

back in the day, by the way. But they have names

49:46

that would be good too, but they would never

49:48

do this. Marvel's a good name for something

49:50

like this.

49:51

No. They

49:53

understand brand and. And

49:55

they wouldn't have a new CEO who came in from

49:57

Lucasfilm. I go, we're going to call it THX or something.

49:59

I think that we just never do that. But

50:02

this will go down as one of the great brand

50:04

disasters. You know, Discovery would have been a better

50:07

name than Max, honestly. They're

50:09

great. They're great. I don't know. Anyway, except

50:11

Discovery, you think of

50:12

Guy Fieri. That's pretty much what you think about. Is

50:14

that right?

50:15

I think of sharks. You think of sharks, anyway.

50:18

I just wanna do give, I do wanna give David Zadloff

50:21

some credit. I think he is really

50:23

helping the mental health of Americans

50:25

because what he's saying to every American is I'm not, you

50:28

know, you're not the only one that makes really expensive

50:30

mistakes.

50:31

Yes, you and Elon Musk. We've

50:33

seen that. My favorite also. They already

50:36

realized they fucked up. They posted on

50:38

Twitter and Instagram, a big logo that says,

50:40

introducing Max. And then right below it, it says,

50:43

the one to watch for HBO. It's

50:46

like, they've already realized they fucked

50:48

up. Creators

50:48

are getting mad too because of the way they're phrasing

50:51

it and stuff like that. They're put, they're changing different

50:53

things. There's a whole contrast around that. Maybe we'll talk

50:55

about it next week. Even Amanda was

50:57

like, she turned it on and it offended her. She was

50:59

watching Succession

51:01

episode nine and she's like, I was

51:03

just offended by the font. You know

51:05

what I mean? Like, I don't want that. I want HBO.

51:08

It was funny. HBO, there'll

51:10

be case studies written for decades and not only

51:13

around brand, but around culture. HBO

51:16

was 120 pound flyweight that

51:20

was beating Larry Holmes.

51:25

They were spending two or three billion a year while

51:27

Netflix was spending 17. And

51:29

what are we talking about around the water cooler? We're talking

51:31

about Succession and Game of Thrones. Yeah.

51:34

Do you know what HBO stands for, of course? Because my

51:36

family was one of the famous companies. Home

51:39

box office. And it

51:41

was a self expressive benefit. My dad used to

51:43

brag. I remember at cocktail parties, when

51:45

my dad was trying to like sleep with all the other

51:48

wives at the party, he

51:50

would say, oh, well we only watch HBO. Like

51:52

that made him a baller. That was

51:54

his big. That was his big thing. He didn't say home

51:57

box office. No, well, at the Galloway

51:59

household, we are.

51:59

We'll only watch HBO. And it's like,

52:02

oh, yeah, that's gonna get her. It used

52:04

to just be movies. It used to just be shitty

52:06

movies when it started. I remember it, because we

52:08

had it on our cable station. You don't

52:09

remember, I love it. The Mind of the Married Man,

52:12

and then the Gary Shanling show? Yeah, Gary

52:14

Shanling. They had some really good stuff. They were like Early

52:16

Fox. Remember Early Fox Network? That

52:19

kind of stuff. It was good, it was really good.

52:20

Rest in peace, HBO. Rest in peace.

52:23

Let's change the name of our podcast to HBO. That's

52:25

what we should do. Good, that'd be

52:27

good. Here we are, the doctors

52:30

on HBO. Doctor HBO, let's

52:32

do that. The one thing that, I have to say,

52:34

flat-blooded, wrong, and several, is all the different HBO

52:37

streaming services. HBO Go, HBO Now,

52:39

HBO

52:39

Max. HBO Joey Bag of Donuts. Yeah,

52:41

I know. HBO Lite. Yeah,

52:43

I used to call them a joke. I'm like, what's the name today?

52:46

HBO Plus, oh my God. The Max

52:48

was a good name. Anyway, if you've got a question

52:50

of your own, that was a very good session there. If

52:53

you've got a, David, call us. Call

52:55

Scott and Kara, the doctors are in. Anyway,

52:57

if you've got a question of your own and like answered,

53:00

send it our way and go to nymag.com

53:02

to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. We

53:06

love a voice question. Thank you, Emily

53:08

from Phoenix, Arizona. Great question. All

53:11

right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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55:32

Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. You

55:34

said you had one, you were saving it, or maybe you

55:36

have a new one. My prediction is after

55:39

listening to the shit show last night that was

55:41

the presidential announcement or the candidacy

55:43

of Governor DeSantis,

55:46

and we're speaking on stage

55:48

at CAN, which I'm really excited about. Yes. I

55:51

did ask Linda Iaccarino. Well,

55:53

my prediction is around Linda. And

55:56

just to ensure Linda does, I'm not sure

55:58

Linda's going to come on stage with us. but I don't think there

56:00

was ever any chance she was going to come on stage. Yeah,

56:03

I probably shouldn't, Linda, but you should. I

56:06

will tell, and I'm committing to this, every

56:08

CMO in the room, and this is really essentially,

56:10

you know, the Cannes

56:13

Creativity Festival is kind of like a contest

56:15

around, let's give awards to the advertising that sucks

56:17

the least. Yeah. And let's,

56:20

you know, we're all pilots...

56:22

But it's in France, and there's Rosé, but go ahead. We're

56:25

all

56:25

pilots on a 747 for Pan Am, and we think we're

56:28

important, but let's be honest, our days are numbered, and let's

56:30

go to a party hosted by our executioners,

56:32

Google and Meta on the beach. Yeah,

56:35

on the beach. But what I will say to every CMO

56:37

in the room, and we will get a ton of them, and I'm

56:39

speaking in a couple places, and I will repeat this, that

56:42

the fastest way between a CMO

56:46

and an unceremonious exit is

56:48

to advertise on Twitter. This

56:51

is an individual running this company who threatened

56:53

to sue advertisers who left, that

56:56

when an individual sells his stock, says

56:58

he hates humanity, his subscale

57:01

clearly has all sorts of technology

57:04

issues, but they want to get advertisers

57:07

to advertise on Twitter. So if you're a CMO,

57:10

literally on a risk-adjusted basis,

57:12

the stupidest thing you can do, you would be better

57:15

off starting a meth

57:17

addiction in terms of your own professional

57:19

trajectory than advertising on Twitter. And

57:22

this goes to my prediction. She

57:24

is pushing a rock up a hill that

57:27

is going to get bigger and heavier every

57:29

day. She will be blamed

57:31

for not restoring the ad revenue that he

57:33

has

57:34

recklessly alienated,

57:37

and she will leave or

57:39

be fired within 12 months. He

57:42

has, this is the mother of all. Linda,

57:44

come on stage with us, please.

57:46

This is the mother, well, let me get this.

57:49

Let me get this. I might sue you

57:51

if you advertise and then leave. I might threaten

57:53

to sue you. I might say that you

57:56

individually, I'm not scared to go after

57:58

people.

57:59

People less powerful to me and

58:02

use the population of the UK and Germany

58:04

to say that you're a sex

58:06

criminal if you do something I don't

58:08

like. Or shrill. Or shrill. But

58:11

advertise with us and she

58:13

will be blamed for it. She will

58:15

do-

58:15

They're going to give her a chance though. They

58:17

like her. She's very well liked. She's 90, yeah.

58:20

And he's such a loyal guy. She will

58:23

be blamed for not accomplishing

58:25

an impossible task. And

58:28

that is to get people out to advertise on

58:30

something that was always subscaled, but now

58:32

it's subscaled and toxic and dangerous

58:35

for people's careers. And

58:37

they will hold her responsible and she will

58:39

leave. And attempting to be-

58:40

I'll tell you what's more important, Scott. The numbers

58:42

aren't very good. The numbers aren't very good. Like,

58:45

let's get away from Wokeness and he's

58:47

obnoxious. If it worked, they'd do it, right?

58:49

The numbers aren't good. That's all.

58:52

It's not an effective advertising platform.

58:54

That's where he will place the blame is on Linda

58:56

Yakarino. Yeah, he will. He won't

58:58

say, Linda, I give you an impossible task.

59:00

What can I do to be helpful? I'll tone it down.

59:03

What can I do to help score advertisers?

59:06

He's just going to make her life impossible

59:09

and then hold her responsible

59:11

for what an awful job she

59:13

has. Yeah.

59:14

I would love to know what's going on inside her head.

59:16

In addition, she's not the CEO. She's

59:18

the COO. I'm

59:20

going to handle product and strategy. She's going

59:22

to handle business and revenue, meaning

59:25

I need someone to blame.

59:26

That's what he said. I need someone to blame. She

59:28

did walk into this and I think she

59:31

thinks he's less terrible than he seems.

59:33

She was smart to take the job. Even if it doesn't work

59:35

out, no one, I didn't know who Linda

59:38

Yakarino was. I mean, I run

59:40

advertising for NBC Universal. Great.

59:43

Is there anyone else here I can speak to? Yeah. No,

59:46

I get it. She wanted to raise her profile and

59:48

she should. Twelve months. What's time

59:50

stamp? It's 12 months or less. 12 months. All

59:53

right. Okay. She has been, literally,

59:55

this is the mother of all. She's been hunting for bears.

59:58

I mean, gosh. That's

1:00:00

a visual. She's a tough lady, we'll

1:00:02

see. But they didn't do a good job for

1:00:04

her. That's the platform I want to advertise

1:00:07

on. They don't understand technology, and

1:00:10

they might humiliate me in front of 120 million people. Yes,

1:00:12

take my money.

1:00:15

I wonder which presidential candidates will

1:00:17

do it. That would be like, no, I don't

1:00:19

think so. I'll just go on Fox News. I

1:00:21

think after seeing what happened where the black hole of

1:00:23

attention, Elon Musk, couldn't resist

1:00:26

the technology issues, all of the negative

1:00:28

press they're getting. I mean, people

1:00:31

will go on the platform. Yeah.

1:00:32

But they're not.

1:00:34

I can't believe I said this in my long

1:00:36

tweet storm was, just hand it over to Tucker

1:00:39

Carlson. He knows how to do media. He

1:00:41

does. He puts on a good show. Even I hate the show.

1:00:43

It's a good show.

1:00:43

Several years ago, right when I was

1:00:46

just getting into podcasting, I heard from Andrew

1:00:49

Yang's people saying, Andrew really wants to come

1:00:51

on your show and talk about his candidates. He'll

1:00:53

go on. For presidency. I remember I wrote back

1:00:55

and said, the fact that he wants to be on my podcast

1:00:57

totally makes him an illegitimate

1:01:00

candidate, in my view. By

1:01:03

the way, I got to know Andrew. He had a moment. And we

1:01:05

become friends. I think he's a good

1:01:08

man, and I think he's had a positive impact on the

1:01:10

world of politics for the first time. People are actually

1:01:12

considering some form of UBI. I

1:01:15

don't think the child tax credit would have gotten anywhere

1:01:17

without him creating cloud cover around UBI. I think

1:01:19

he's a good man. But I remember

1:01:21

he was literally... You

1:01:23

summarized the

1:01:25

perfect. The medium is the message here, and

1:01:27

the medium yesterday was a fucking shit show.

1:01:30

And so the message... The message was, this sucks.

1:01:33

The message was, this just doesn't work.

1:01:35

This doesn't

1:01:35

work, yeah. And also look at Elon

1:01:37

over here. Anyway, Ron... Do you have a prediction?

1:01:40

I do not. I don't know. I do not.

1:01:43

I do not have... Although I was right about

1:01:45

it being a shit show. I forgot. I have

1:01:47

another right

1:01:47

one. Linda Yaccarino is going to come on the show

1:01:50

after she resigns. And

1:01:53

it's going to be a great show. And Linda, we'll

1:01:55

help you get a job. We know everybody. She's a

1:01:57

talented woman. She's going to be fine. I'm

1:02:00

already talking about her as if she's already been, if

1:02:03

she's already left. Oh, we'll see.

1:02:05

We'll see. As they say on Succession, it's a knife

1:02:08

fight in the mud. Life is a knife fight

1:02:10

in the mud. By the way, I'll have a prediction. The

1:02:12

end of Succession is going to be a big viewership.

1:02:16

I can't handle it. It's too emotionally

1:02:18

traumatic. I have two podcasts

1:02:21

on it. That's how good it is. Two. Yeah.

1:02:24

Is this week the- Sunday, yeah. It's done. It's over?

1:02:27

Mm-hmm.

1:02:28

Wow. I don't know how they could do any

1:02:30

more surprises.

1:02:32

Are Shiv and Tom going to strangle each other? I have to even like

1:02:34

skip through. I'm not saying a word.

1:02:36

I say no words. People should not

1:02:38

then be that mean to each other. And also, as

1:02:40

someone, light of my life, you

1:02:43

know, I know your father's passing

1:02:45

out a big impact on you. My mother said, it's

1:02:47

getting a little much. He's deaf. Just

1:02:49

put him in the ground. It's getting a little much.

1:02:52

It's getting a little rancid. It's

1:02:54

getting a little much. He didn't like you. He

1:02:56

wasn't nice to you. Put him in the ground and start spending

1:02:58

his money. I have to say, I love

1:03:01

all the speculation. And the funniest

1:03:03

one was the person who said, Tom

1:03:06

and Shiv are going to have a baby and cousin

1:03:08

Greg is going to imprint on it, you know, like the end

1:03:10

of Twilight.

1:03:11

No, it's going to be Rosemary's baby. It's going to be

1:03:13

the spawn of Satan. There's no baby.

1:03:15

This is a week happening. There's no baby happening.

1:03:18

It's a week. I fast forward. He knows. I'd find

1:03:20

whatever. By the way, greatest series finale in

1:03:22

history, in history- What? Was

1:03:24

on HBO. It was the season or the series

1:03:27

finale of Six Feet Under. I agree.

1:03:29

That was a masterpiece. That was a

1:03:31

kick in the fucking gut. A

1:03:33

masterpiece. The Sia song. Oh. And

1:03:37

the only way they could match that is that

1:03:39

they fast forward. And Greg, cousin

1:03:41

Greg is the CEO of Waystar and banging models

1:03:44

and doing blow off the ass of really,

1:03:46

really hot, really

1:03:49

hot male and

1:03:52

female prostitutes. I am so here

1:03:54

for that. HBO. I can't believe- H

1:03:56

to the B to the O, bitches. HBO.

1:03:59

I can't-

1:03:59

I cannot believe that you and I agree on

1:04:02

the best finale. That's true. And also

1:04:04

by the way, rest in peace, Tina Turner.

1:04:06

And we agree on her greatest song, what's

1:04:08

love got to do with it. Although I will say it's

1:04:11

only love with Brian Adams. Jesus.

1:04:14

That was everything. His voice

1:04:17

contrasted with hers.

1:04:19

Everything she did, everything

1:04:21

she did. I listened to Tina Turner one

1:04:23

year when that big album came out

1:04:25

that she got sort of revived again.

1:04:29

I lived in New York and I listened to it on

1:04:32

play and play and play again. And I

1:04:34

just loved Tina Turner. Also a decent actress, Mad

1:04:37

Max. I think it was Beyond Thunderdome. Yeah,

1:04:39

Thunderdome. And just a cool person. If you look at there's a lot

1:04:41

of interviews showing up with her online

1:04:44

and they're all fantastic. She's

1:04:47

just hysterically funny. She was with Mike

1:04:49

Wallace at her beautiful estate here in the state

1:04:51

in the South of France where we'll be not

1:04:54

at the estate. And it was gorgeous. He had an infinity

1:04:56

pool overlooking the Riviera. And

1:04:59

he goes,

1:05:01

do you deserve this? I think he says this to

1:05:03

her, which is kind of a weird question. Do you deserve

1:05:05

this? But she handles it so beautifully.

1:05:07

And she goes, I deserve more. And just

1:05:09

the way she did it was quiet and like, fuck

1:05:12

you dude.

1:05:12

Well, you know who bought that estate out of probate already.

1:05:15

Who? David Zaslov. You're

1:05:18

all throwing the party.

1:05:18

He's there now in Cannes. He's

1:05:21

there now with the McCann or whatever. By the way, what's the chance I'm gonna

1:05:23

get offered as another CNN show right now? Not

1:05:25

at all. Not even slightly. I'm not,

1:05:27

I'm entirely serious. We're gonna have a conversation

1:05:30

after this. We are changing the name of our podcast

1:05:32

to HBO.

1:05:33

Read us out, just leave us out. Do not say HBO once

1:05:35

more. Read us out. Today's show

1:05:37

was produced by Lara Neiman, Evan Engel and

1:05:39

Taylor Griffin. Ernie Dertat engineered this episode.

1:05:41

Thanks also to Drew Burroughs and Miele Savario. Make

1:05:44

sure you subscribe to the show wherever you're listening to podcasts.

1:05:46

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine

1:05:48

and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown

1:05:50

of all things tech and business. Be sure to

1:05:52

tune in to Girls, to

1:05:55

Game of Thrones, to The Wire and

1:05:58

to Pivot for more.

1:05:59

HBO.