0:00

Support for this episode comes from cover

0:02

genius, the InsurTech for embedded insurance

0:05

that is changing the insurance landscape. Finally,

0:07

with a simple API integration, Cover

0:09

Genius enables digital companies to distribute

0:12

any line of insurance or warranty to customers in

0:14

all fifty states and in more than sixty countries

0:16

available at Amazon. Intuit

0:18

flip card booking dot com and more.

0:20

Cover Genius platform offers customers embedded

0:23

global protection for any online transaction.

0:25

Whether purchasing from one of the world's largest

0:27

retailers' fintechs, online travel agencies

0:29

banks are signing up for loans, pet insurance,

0:32

or contract work, Cover Genius

0:34

ensures that relevant protection is in

0:36

place. Happy customers, unlock

0:38

growth. It's insurance the way insurance should

0:40

be. Visit cover genius dot com slash pivot

0:43

today to learn more.

0:47

When

0:49

you're staying at Airbnb, you might have wondered,

0:51

wait, could my place be an Airbnb and

0:53

if so, what could it earn? Like Tammy

0:56

in North Carolina who said she had that thought

0:58

too. She'd Airbnb her one

1:00

bedroom guest house where her family stayed

1:02

only a few weekends a year. Now the

1:04

extra income helps keep the doors of

1:06

her food and wine business is open. You

1:08

might not realize it but you might also

1:10

have an Airbnb too. Find out

1:12

what your place could be earning at airbnb

1:15

dot com slash host.

1:23

Hi,

1:23

everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine

1:26

in the vox media podcast network. I'm

1:28

Kara Swisher. And

1:28

I'm Scott Galloway.

1:30

How was your weekend, Scott? That

1:32

was really nice. I have my closest

1:35

and oldest friend who I met in the four

1:37

North grade at apartment in town. Wow.

1:40

And I've been thinking a lot about trying to

1:42

did you know one in seven men

1:44

in America, and it's up from one

1:46

in twenty just twenty years ago.

1:49

One in seven men in America don't

1:51

have a single friend. What?

1:54

don't have a single friend, and it's one in

1:56

ten for women. Friendship is under attack.

1:59

Really? Yeah. We don't meet

2:01

the random points of meeting

2:03

them. They kind of ceremony and institutions

2:05

have been broken through COVID. Mhmm.

2:07

Following your friends on Instagram generally makes

2:10

you like them people have decided they can no

2:12

longer be friends with a large part of their

2:14

traditional friend base because of their

2:16

political leanings. Yes. friendship

2:19

is really under attack. Yeah.

2:20

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I would like to get rid

2:23

of friends, but that's different. But

2:25

I was reading a piece in The New York Times are Kinless,

2:27

people who are Kinless. with, you know, as they

2:29

get older, there's just gonna be this is it's

2:31

millions of people. It's in an amount

2:33

of

2:33

people. Mhmm.

2:35

But if they have no kin, children,

2:38

they decided not to get married, etcetera,

2:39

etcetera. So there's a growing coterie of

2:41

these people and they have to figure out how to take care of them.

2:44

and they also have now lost a lot of

2:46

friends. And so how do

2:47

you this one woman was was

2:49

very sad. Like, she's just by herself. She said, I just

2:51

talked to store clerks and my doctors,

2:54

which was depressing

2:54

on every level. So it was

2:57

kind of interesting to how do you create those

2:59

friendships communities that

3:00

are in person and in real life or online?

3:02

I mean, there's there's online relationships.

3:05

So it's it's definitely

3:06

a big issue and that we've gotta go

3:08

through especially is there's this aging population

3:10

who are isolated. Yeah. Yeah. And I

3:12

say loneliness is the

3:15

equivalent of smoking seventeen cigarettes a

3:17

day for your health. So essentially, what you have

3:19

is tens of millions of people to

3:21

look at another way. thirty to fifty

3:23

million Americans have all of a sudden started

3:25

smoking a pack of cigarettes a day in terms of

3:27

health impact. I

3:29

think it's be actually a really big

3:31

topic of discussion and concern. Did

3:34

you have a nice time with your friend? Did you play well?

3:36

Yeah. We went out. He's dating a much younger

3:38

woman, which side. So I enjoyed

3:40

just being in that context, and we went on and

3:42

got ridiculously fucked up. And then I

3:44

spent the majority of Saturday recovering,

3:46

and he spent the majority of Saturday trying to pretend

3:48

that he can hang, he can roll with the young people,

3:50

but it was fun to see that world for anything.

3:53

It's a it's a nice being old. I have to say, I

3:55

came up and saw Michael Bigley

3:57

as I came

3:57

to New York. Oh, you saw him? on Mike Show.

3:59

Yeah. It was great. And I'm gonna be

4:02

interviewing him this week on It

4:04

was great. It was and we met him afterwards. Oddly

4:06

enough, we met Drew Barry Moore too. Oh.

4:08

Who was backstage? Yeah. It was nice. And

4:10

then Louie King, So it was a lovely

4:12

it was a lovely

4:13

short time with my beautiful son. Yeah.

4:15

So today, we're gonna have a lot of things to

4:17

talk about. The newest front in content

4:19

moderation and what it means for the future of social

4:21

media, and Scott will help us understand

4:23

how to make good business decisions for your

4:25

stakeholder. He's turning into Professor

4:27

Gallaudin for our very high Why

4:30

not? We'll be teaching. And we'll speak

4:32

with Nobel Prize winner Maria Ressa,

4:34

one of my friends speaking of friends, about

4:36

democracy and dictatorship. She's

4:38

amazing. But first, this weekend,

4:40

Trump took the truth social to suggest

4:42

that the fraud of the twenty twenty election

4:44

was so serious that it, quote, allows

4:47

for the termination of all rules, regulations,

4:49

and articles, even those found in

4:51

the constitution as usual

4:53

Trump's remarks were met with minimal backlash

4:55

by Republicans were still in a vote form even

4:57

though he doesn't like the constitution. The

5:00

statement comes in contrast to Kevin McCarthy's

5:02

announcement last month. The Republicans would read the

5:04

entirety of the constitution. on the floor of the

5:06

house when they take control in January. Oh,

5:08

good god. This guy. And of course, they're like, oh,

5:10

he tweets a lot of stuff. This one's

5:11

pretty amazing. It's a sort of

5:14

so comical

5:15

First off, he doesn't understand the constitution.

5:17

You know, this is the equivalent of when he got

5:20

in front of a church and held up the

5:22

bible in started making money wise. We

5:24

should suspend the constitution. Yeah.

5:26

That's that's that's gonna happen. Well, now

5:28

here's you had the response that Republicans

5:30

kinda had others. Democrats were more hey,

5:33

he's gonna be the lead. He's probably gonna be

5:35

the candidate.

5:36

Is that problematic? Should we not

5:38

just

5:38

go off this guy?

5:39

That's how we handle

5:40

him now. This guy said what? There's

5:43

I've kinda He had dinner with who.

5:45

Right. I've kinda I almost had a comfortable

5:47

circle on it, but there is

5:49

a genius to feeding

5:52

the rage machine no matter

5:54

how ridiculous or stupid your argument is.

5:56

And what it's come down to is

5:58

that both Trump and Musk

6:00

have I

6:03

don't believe Trump would have

6:05

ever been president and Musk

6:07

would have attained the kind of wealth he's

6:09

attained. Had they both not realized that

6:11

it's more important than the world is thinking

6:13

about you than what they think about you.

6:16

And -- Yeah. -- so

6:19

what Trump is has basically

6:21

acquiesced to Musk is that Musk

6:23

is now doing a more effective job

6:26

of being the story every seventy two

6:28

hours. I mean, if you think about this, whether

6:30

it's letting you on, kicking

6:32

them off again, picking

6:34

a fight with with Apple,

6:36

something I'm fairly certain happens is

6:38

Trump has a kitchen cabinet. I don't know if it's

6:40

one person or three people. And

6:42

their mission is the following. You

6:44

just need to be the story. there

6:47

is wealth around fame, regardless of what

6:49

your fame is for. And I'm Tanya Kerr

6:51

and you can go back and really look at

6:53

it every seventy two hours. They decide

6:55

regardless of what it's about, we need

6:57

to be the story. And

6:59

so I'm trying to figure out, are

7:01

we better off And and

7:03

Democrats get angry that people aren't

7:05

offended. That's our primary thing. Like Why

7:07

is this story? Why isn't this Yeah. Republicans,

7:09

why aren't you offended? Why aren't you saying something?

7:12

Yeah. And the reality is we probably I'm

7:14

not sure we just shouldn't be talking about

7:16

it because -- Mhmm. -- it just

7:18

adds So that's what Republicans would like. they

7:20

they cannot be done. But I'm not sure I'm not

7:22

sure in the long run. I wonder

7:24

if we'd be better off when it's sort of sort of

7:26

nonsense. I don't think this is only on any

7:28

traction. I don't think it's a real I don't think it's a

7:30

I think election denial or when Kerry

7:33

Lake or a candidate start running

7:35

for the electoral boards who are denies.

7:37

I think that's a real threat, and we have to have a very

7:39

public conversation about it. This

7:41

is just trafe. This is just an

7:43

attempt Until he becomes the candidate. until

7:45

he becomes a candidate. Doesn't matter. Well,

7:47

but for this story, but the way he

7:49

becomes the candidate is to be in the news

7:51

every forty eight hours and to You

7:53

think? I think people get tired of

7:54

many people. To create rage on the other side

7:56

because now people vote for candidates, not

7:58

based on what they'll do for them, but their ability

8:00

to inflame the other side, which they hate so

8:02

much. And this rage

8:04

has become kind of the the

8:06

fissure material for

8:08

this for this nuclear reactor around

8:11

If it works,

8:12

if it works, there's a there's a move to for

8:14

Democrats and some Republicans get together

8:16

and

8:16

elect Fred Upton, who is a non

8:18

election denier. very

8:20

moderate guy to the speakership because

8:22

Kevin McCarthy is not sucking up enough

8:24

to the right, which would be interesting. Wouldn't

8:26

that be interesting? That would

8:28

be interesting. Anyway, we'll see. You're right. I think you're

8:30

probably right on the whole, but it you should still

8:32

be irritated. Not not more than irritated

8:34

that probably the candidate for the public

8:36

party is talking for the end of the we

8:38

should pay attention to it. We should put

8:40

a pin in it as they say. By the way, I carry

8:42

around

8:42

a copy of the constitution. Do you I did not know

8:45

that. I carry it all the time. I like to

8:47

refer to it when people argue with me. I carry

8:49

around later this at women's prison film.

8:51

It's kind of the same time. Yeah. Okay. Kind of the

8:53

same time. Alright. Okay.

8:54

The DOJ is asking for an independent

8:56

review of FTX's bankruptcy.

8:59

The justice department

8:59

wants the probe to review, quote,

9:02

substantial and serious allegations of

9:04

fraud, dishonesty, and incompetence, which

9:06

could have damaged crypto as

9:09

a whole. The filing also described the

9:11

meltdown as the, quote, fastest, big

9:13

corporate failure in American history.

9:15

SPF is still is

9:17

that's he's going to jail. I don't know

9:19

what else to say. He's in some fashion. He's going to

9:22

jail. And I think his little pity

9:23

party PR thing is

9:25

not working well for him. Incredibly

9:27

dumb. that that's gonna

9:29

still come back to haunt him. He should

9:31

he should not be all he's doing is

9:33

reminding everyone every day of just how

9:35

insane and what a

9:37

what a spectacle this was

9:39

and I mean, he's he's being

9:41

really poorly advised right now, really poorly

9:43

advised. I don't think he's being advised. his

9:45

father. It's him and his father. Well, his

9:48

parents have done it. I

9:50

mean, this is just -- Yeah. -- this is just

9:52

a dumbest strategy ever. And the thing I

9:54

just can't handle is all

9:56

of the the crypto Taliban and has

9:58

tried this, you know, this

10:00

jujitsu move of claiming

10:02

that it was the median politicians

10:04

protecting him. and

10:06

that no. Actually,

10:08

the truth is, it was the CryptoTaliban

10:11

who didn't wanna have a conversation about it and

10:13

and all also VCs who claimed that

10:15

institutions and regulators needed to stay out of the

10:17

way and that the media didn't get it. Yep. That's

10:19

right. They were the ultimate enabler

10:21

here, and they decided, okay, we're gonna write love

10:24

letters. So Claire Capital's gonna put out a big

10:26

thought piece on why he's the type of person they

10:28

want to back. Despite the fact, he doesn't have

10:30

a board. despite the fact he

10:32

decided to to incorporate in the

10:34

Bahamas. I wonder why. Despite the fact

10:36

there were no audited financials, And

10:38

just so ridiculous. It's like regulators,

10:41

government, you just need to get out of the way. And

10:43

then all of a sudden it's like, well, where are you?

10:45

It's your fault. Right. I mean, it

10:47

is Right. No. I know. They just won't have

10:49

any type of hypocrisy for

10:51

them to not -- It isn't. -- holding up a

10:53

mirror and going, okay. we got this wrong.

10:55

They won't. They won't. It's the same thing with Elon no

10:57

matter what he does. He he he pooped on

10:59

the floor. They'd be, like, brilliant move.

11:01

Brilliant. You just do move, sir.

11:03

that kind of thing speaking

11:04

of judges. You know, whatever whatever

11:07

people, he's going to jail. That's

11:08

pretty much what I think is happening here.

11:10

Also speaking of damage control, someone

11:12

who's effective at it, Tim Cook was on Capitol

11:15

Hill. He was also at the state dinner

11:17

for McCall. The Apple CEO

11:19

met with lawmakers on Thursday amidst

11:21

criticism of Big Tech Republican lawmakers

11:23

complained about app store fees and the Apple's management

11:25

of airdrop features during protests in

11:27

China Cook seemed to please the right ahead of

11:29

Republican's signature of the House, which representative

11:31

Jim Jordan said that the judiciary committee

11:33

will be. calling their meeting very

11:35

good. Of course, this is the same thing. He did the

11:37

same thing with Elon, and he's really good

11:39

at it.

11:39

This guy is a is a pro. Well, I don't

11:41

know if you heard. Okay. This is

11:43

This is a sense you will

11:45

never read in the news. Yeah.

11:49

Cook reveals internal

11:51

discussions regarding Don

11:55

Junior's pictures of Don Junior's penis.

11:57

You won't ever read that headline.

11:59

Yeah.

11:59

Apple and Tempe have a female. Never

12:02

engage. in that type

12:04

of weirdness. I

12:06

mean Yes.

12:06

We'll get to that in a second. But Anyways, I'm sorry.

12:08

talk about this in particular. He's being very deaf

12:11

in terms how we handle. So he's got big

12:13

problems around China and the App

12:15

Store and things like that. No question. Let's not

12:17

dismiss those. It's not credit that pressure,

12:19

but he's handling it in the way that

12:21

a professional CEO does. I

12:23

love the term fiduciary. And that is,

12:25

I am here representing other people's interests.

12:28

and also grace. Now they're

12:30

moving out of the out of China into Vietnam

12:32

and India. Well, you can just

12:34

take any iPad, making it a

12:37

a button and app on the iPhone, doubling

12:39

down on the iPhone. The AirPods

12:41

don't get the recognition they deserve. They just

12:43

make very good very

12:45

big decisions, but also he's not afraid to take a punch.

12:47

He doesn't feel like he needs to counter punch

12:50

and clap back all the time. He

12:52

is willing. He shows a a certain level of decorum.

12:54

And more than anything, he

12:56

he gets it. It's not about

12:59

me. It's about stakeholders,

13:02

shareholders, employees, the Commonwealth,

13:04

and I am here to represent

13:06

other people's interests. Anyways,

13:09

I'm go if I'm invited to the White

13:11

House, I will go and I will be

13:13

polite. It just -- Mhmm. -- he reeks of

13:15

a a certain class and

13:18

responsible, you know, responsible.

13:20

I I'm sure in the I'd love to see the thought

13:22

bubble over his head when he's meeting with Jim Jordan,

13:24

but he certainly will be core he will -- Yeah. -- and he will

13:26

talk he will he will treat him with respect to the

13:28

to the space. Representative

13:30

Jordan, you know, you're would you

13:32

like to see that what we're working on

13:35

Anyways Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's yeah. They're

13:37

still gonna face pressure with this app

13:38

store. I think, you know, it's the problem

13:40

is the people representing the

13:42

the side of we need to do something about it

13:44

or a horse's assays. And but they're right

13:46

in terms of some of it that's got to be

13:49

more transparent, etcetera, and we'll talk about that

13:51

in a second. But I think it's really important

13:53

that that how

13:53

he be he's he's behaving

13:56

correctly for Apple shareholders and

13:58

and employees. And

13:59

tech in general, tech in general so that

14:02

it doesn't become this ridiculous scream

14:04

fast. And he's a calmer downer as

14:06

opposed to others who are That's what men do. That's

14:08

what real men do. We we have this

14:10

terrible mythology

14:12

or lie, then men

14:14

escalate and antagonize and

14:16

fight real men real men

14:18

deescalate. That's the whole point. They

14:20

used their strength. I was at a I was

14:22

in talking about the doucheus doucheus and doucheus

14:25

and doucheus drill. I was in Antucket at a bar and two

14:27

guys were drunk. Yeah. and they started

14:29

having words. And --

14:31

Mhmm. -- I knew kind of tangentially the one

14:33

guy and I I tried to just,

14:35

like, distract him. And then this

14:37

other enormously buff guy just

14:39

kinda came up in between the two of

14:41

them and made some jokes and

14:43

separated them and handled it with such a

14:45

plumb. When I went out to him, I'm like, we need

14:47

more men like you. I mean,

14:50

this guy -- This guy -- more

14:52

fun enough to stop that. I could've killed

14:54

everyone in the bar. But instead, he used

14:56

his physical strength to come in and deescalate

14:58

the situation. Yeah. I

14:59

love that. You know, I was just thinking about

15:01

my son, Louis, and

15:03

he's always doing that. He's always trying

15:05

to calm everybody down. I was thinking,

15:07

I didn't do this as a

15:08

parent, but boy, is it a great quality and a

15:10

man? Will you learn about it in relationships too.

15:12

And I think there's a learning here and I'm going Ester

15:14

Perelle. But as a young man,

15:16

when someone espouse or

15:18

or girlfriend got in my face about something,

15:20

I reared up gathered my thoughts

15:22

and got back in their face. And

15:24

then what do you realize? my qualities. They wanted

15:26

the kids to help the relationship. to me

15:29

too. Yeah. because you wanna acknowledge the

15:31

problem and you wanna on saying, you're

15:33

right. because the fact that you're upset means

15:35

there's some voracity to what you're saying.

15:37

And then focus on what you can do and

15:39

deescalate the situation. Yep. In any

15:40

case, we have to get onto our first big

15:42

stories.

15:45

It's been said one day,

15:48

all politics will be about content

15:50

moderation this week brought us one step closer to that

15:52

reality. On Friday, journalist Matt

15:54

Tyeibe released batch of

15:56

internal Twitter emails, Doug. The Twitter

15:58

files he did it on. He really released that

15:59

he put them on. They're

16:00

very confusing. The emails came

16:03

from twenty twenty when Twitter executives decided

16:04

to block a New York Post story about Hunter

16:07

Biden's laptop

16:07

at the time. The company said the story

16:09

violated the policy about publishing hacked materials.

16:12

Tayebi's post showed internal debate over the

16:14

decision and the rationale. It

16:16

seemed rather exactly what yolked

16:18

told me in an interview earlier in the week. Elan

16:21

Musk seemed to have given them to him, obviously.

16:23

He said, we a lot in his things. He

16:25

promoted the post, teased it before,

16:27

said they were gonna be hot, and to reveal

16:29

was a flop, even right wingers like

16:31

Sebastian Gorka called it deeply

16:33

underwhelming. It was less than that. There was it

16:35

showed it actually thoughtful people disagreeing

16:37

and trying to figure

16:38

things out and making mistakes. Anyway,

16:40

what I saw was nothing. There

16:42

still haven't released other things.

16:45

I don't know what they thought these

16:47

emails would show. I

16:49

I don't know what to say about them. They were just they

16:52

were

16:52

nothing burger. which got Muscular and

16:54

said that that the media should be

16:56

famous for calling them in nothing burger, but

16:58

that's precisely what they are and

16:59

they made serious allegations about first

17:02

amendment violations that weren't there. And one of the

17:04

funnier parts was the penis

17:06

situation with Hunter Biden which

17:08

was several requests involved taking down

17:10

nude photos of his junk

17:12

that were posted without his consent.

17:14

And I feel like that was a good

17:15

decision. And they asked me to get involved

17:18

and I said, well, I'll help you on the hard

17:20

parts. I knew

17:21

I knew you'd love this story.

17:23

First off, Is it fair to call Matt Tayebi

17:25

a journalist? I mean, was he really a

17:27

He was. Oh, okay. But I I

17:29

mean, people occasionally introduce me

17:31

as a journalist because of what we do here. And I say, I'm not a journalist. A

17:34

journalist, fact check, journalists feel an

17:36

obligation to hear both sides and try and

17:38

call balls and strikes. I

17:40

don't think this guy was calling balls and strikes here. I

17:42

think he was acting as the public relations

17:44

comms person for the wealthiest man in the

17:46

world, and Jessica Yellen

17:48

who I adore summarizes

17:51

perfectly. She has this

17:53

kind of news service called me who's not

17:55

noise, and she put in big bold letters,

17:58

noise. Release Twitter emails

18:00

show how employees debated how to handle twenty

18:02

twenty New York Coast Hunter Biden

18:04

story, and she writes, also not

18:06

a thing. Musk hyped the release of

18:08

internal communications, exposing the

18:10

identity of former Twitter employees,

18:12

claiming it showed interference to suppress Ressa

18:14

story about Hunter Biden. but the

18:16

leaked doesn't show that. And musk

18:19

hypingness is another creepy use of the

18:21

platform to stow conspiracy theories

18:23

and drive partisan outrage.

18:26

I think I perfectly summarizes what happened there. Yeah.

18:28

You

18:28

know, it was interesting in the emails,

18:30

congressman Rocana actually contacted

18:32

Twitter and

18:33

said, He shouldn't do this. He's

18:34

quite left, you know. I mean, he would be

18:37

the

18:37

liberal the liberal party of

18:38

the Democratic party. And he

18:40

thought it was it was a bad idea to take it down. Let it let

18:42

it flow kind of thing at the time. And that's

18:44

what happened. Twitter made a mistake,

18:47

Jack Dorsey, what I liked about it was

18:49

seeing the debate. Actually, I was sort of hard on that

18:51

there was a lot of debate internally.

18:53

And they made a wrong decision, and

18:55

then they changed it. And

18:57

then in Congress, Jack Dorsey said it was a

18:59

mistake. It was a total mistake. And

19:01

and that Raucona was writing at

19:03

the time in real time saying you

19:05

you shouldn't you know, there was no

19:07

need to take it down in Yolked,

19:09

told me it was a mistake.

19:10

Ultimately, for me, it

19:13

didn't reach a place where I was comfortable

19:16

removing this content from Twitter. Everything

19:18

about it looked like a passion league and

19:20

stuff like I want to do that.

19:22

but it didn't get there for me. He actually did not

19:24

wanna take it down. So it's I was sort

19:26

of heartened, but it made Twitter look kinda good. I

19:28

I don't know. They made a mistake and they

19:30

they fixed it. a story

19:32

here isn't what happened or didn't happen. It's kind

19:34

of like internal communications porn. It's

19:36

titling to watch the sausage being

19:38

made. It's the fact that Elon

19:40

Musk has gone full partisan and

19:42

has now weaponized his platform

19:44

for ride leaning viewpoint. He

19:46

didn't he didn't release internal communications on

19:48

the discussions they had around kicking Trump

19:50

off the platform. Yeah. No.

19:52

He didn't. He noticed that. The actual

19:54

debate here in the conversations but

19:56

it's a nothing burger. What's interesting here is that

19:59

Elon Musk has gone red pill and has

20:01

decided that I'm going to

20:03

weaponize and go after

20:05

to make make Democrats and the

20:07

president look bad as

20:09

opposed to I mean, this is just unprecedented.

20:11

We never had a meeting Well, and also the they

20:13

didn't check the penis thing. They didn't check

20:15

the new check the penis thing. It

20:17

was crazy. Real reporters checked,

20:19

real people

20:20

checked, and it was like, oh, they were

20:22

asking to take down non consensual pictures

20:24

of his ding dog. can't believe Republicans

20:26

are defending that. That's like I don't

20:28

know. III think the big takeaway here

20:30

is it confirms something I've always thought

20:32

I would love to party enroll with

20:35

Hunter Biden. I just think that would make for him

20:37

to be some weekend. I

20:38

feel sad. Interestingly, at the same time,

20:40

he had to content moderate Elon

20:43

on Friday, Twitter

20:44

suspended the artist formerly known as Kanye West

20:46

after he tweeted an image of

20:47

a swastika inside of a star David. But I don't

20:49

think that's what got him suspended because that got him

20:51

an eight, twelve hour suspension. he then posted a

20:53

picture of Elon looking

20:56

fat, that

20:56

famous fat picture with

20:58

Ari Emmanuel. And that's

21:00

when he got thrown off. I it

21:02

was weird because I retweeted it

21:05

in a way saying this this isn't how

21:07

decisions should be made, and I

21:09

got blocked by Elon immediately within

21:11

minutes. of putting that up. So they're obviously paying attention

21:13

to that picture. I don't want to, but

21:15

I mean, this was someone that we knew was gonna

21:17

misbehave online. They let them on, and then

21:20

you know, he says something, like, fuck around and

21:21

find out. Like, we already knew he fucks

21:24

around. We already found out, but we keep

21:26

giving these people a We're talking about a year,

21:28

Hunter. Are we talking about her? Yeah.

21:30

Yeah. And and

21:30

and Hunter too. We know each other. I

21:32

can't figure out. I can't figure out. This

21:34

is what I don't like about it. It's like,

21:37

okay. we need to

21:39

extinguish antisemitism and

21:41

stop using both sides of them

21:43

around mental illness. the

21:45

majority of mental ill people, mental illness doesn't

21:47

over index around bigotry versus

21:49

mentally healthy people. So these people don't

21:51

have an excuse because

21:54

they're quantified to mental illness. At the

21:56

same time, all this

21:58

dud was bring oxygen to another

22:00

vile human being and bring him a

22:02

lot of YouTube traffic because it's on the

22:04

YouTube channel of another vile person. And

22:06

I wonder -- Okay. -- I I don't know

22:08

if we're I don't know if

22:10

our outrage or talking about it does

22:12

more harm than good. I'm I'm

22:14

struggling, Kara. I'm struggling. It's

22:16

done.

22:16

Well, here's the thing. How do you deal with this? Because he's

22:18

essentially making decisions on the fly.

22:21

He he he had a text from

22:22

Elon telling he'd gone too far.

22:24

He can't do

22:25

this. this is It's be

22:27

they're gonna try to lean into automation to

22:29

help content moderation. Obviously, it's harder.

22:31

And the real story, of course, is it's

22:32

missing its weekly ad revenue Ressa.

22:35

like a lot. That's really the actual story.

22:38

What the fuck are you spending

22:40

your time said every Tesla shareholder

22:43

ever. What are you doing?

22:45

What are you doing involved in this bullshit?

22:47

Yeah. I

22:49

this is the problem. They're gonna get sucked on these things. Yay

22:51

was the subject, as you said, of another moderation

22:54

decision. on YouTube. The network's

22:56

removing clips of an interview between

22:58

Yay. It's not Yay. Yay. I don't

23:00

care. Yay. And Alex

23:02

Jones which

23:02

the artist said he loves Hitler and

23:05

Nazis, Alice Jones and Infowars have

23:07

been banned from

23:07

YouTube since two thousand eighteen.

23:10

he, of course, isn't buying parlor, which we can we just

23:12

say we predicted or me in particular, predicted

23:14

that he wasn't gonna be buying parlor.

23:17

Meanwhile, Amazon CEO Andy

23:18

Jassy says his company will not remove

23:21

an anti Semitic film promoted

23:23

by Kyrie Irving. Jonathan

23:25

Greenblatt of the anti defamation league called

23:27

on Amazon to add a disclaimer to

23:29

the film, calling it, quote, the

23:32

bare minimum.

23:32

I mean, this is they cannot

23:35

artisanally figure this

23:35

stuff out. Well, I think it's the problem

23:38

when you have I mean, it's

23:40

so important that artists and

23:42

creativity are given some such a wide

23:44

berth to say -- That's correct. --

23:46

Ressa. And at the time, maybe

23:49

inappropriate things. I think Netflix was right to lead Dave

23:51

Chappella. The problem is, when these

23:53

organizations become such

23:55

global conglomerates, and

23:57

you have autocacies specifically

23:59

China that become so important to

24:01

shareholder value that

24:03

you end up with John Saina giving an

24:06

apology in Mandarin saying, I

24:08

apologize for saying, Taiwan was

24:10

a nation. and you just end

24:12

up with these types of conflicts that it

24:14

suppressed artistry. And, I mean,

24:16

that's kind of suppressing free speech. We

24:18

now have two every super film

24:20

Every superhero film has two versions, the version for

24:22

the world and the version for

24:25

China. So, you know, it's a real

24:27

issue here and it's a function

24:29

of size and when you the more tentacles you have, the more likely

24:31

you are to have some sort of conflict or

24:34

uncomfortable. You know, participant media,

24:36

I met the CEO. They're only such an

24:38

interesting guy. You know, they they

24:40

can kinda do what they want. Can

24:42

Apple TV? I'm as

24:44

I was, I'll bring this back to me. I've been

24:46

talking to a bunch of

24:48

high profile writers and producers about

24:51

the story around Big Tech and the personalities

24:53

involved. And it's like, okay. Mhmm. Apple

24:55

can't do it. Apple can't distribute it.

24:58

Yeah. Amazon can't distribute it. So

25:00

basically, we're kinda down to HBO because

25:03

all of these guys have such deep roots and

25:05

a big tech.

25:06

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It's it's

25:08

funny that Andy left it up, and, of course,

25:11

they'd never do a show on Elon

25:12

Musk, for example. Or

25:15

you know, they have all the things. I think what's

25:17

interesting is that each of them is making these

25:19

decisions individually and it's

25:21

nearly impossible when they do

25:23

it or they just have to take responsibility.

25:25

They decide to keep it up, suck it

25:27

up and take the criticism. And you're gonna get

25:29

it from

25:29

the Jonathan Greenblatt to the world because

25:31

that's their job.

25:32

to say this is an anti Semitic film.

25:34

I think you have to give a wide berth to

25:36

a lot of these things including Shabelle. I just didn't

25:38

think Shabelle was

25:39

funny. as opposed to Mike Probiglia,

25:42

and it was just service to his talent.

25:44

But Yeah. That's fine. Don't watch it.

25:46

That's you're right. In that case,

25:47

leave it up. And I think what they have

25:50

is There's another film

25:50

about to make a controversy at

25:53

Netflix of Palestinians and Israelis.

25:55

And look, the Israelis do not look good in

25:57

this this thing. there's gonna

25:59

be attacks on

25:59

that

26:00

coming up in from internally from the

26:03

company. And at some point, you just have to

26:05

say, work this is what I'm gonna do

26:07

someone else could make a different decision, but this but they're

26:09

gonna have to be doing this over and over

26:11

and over again. And in proof proving it

26:13

is Elon Musk coming to take down

26:16

cut. Yeah. If he really stuck to his gums, he would've let him do

26:18

it because there's lots of pictures of swastikas

26:21

online. It's just hard to do

26:23

individually to figure this

26:25

out. or admit that that's exactly

26:26

what you're doing. You're not a free speech absolute

26:28

as Durey. I will make the decisions here,

26:30

and that's what we're doing.

26:33

But what is appropriate? What is

26:35

non appropriate? Any fidelity

26:37

to free speech to the first amendment?

26:39

Any attempt to develop a systemic

26:41

construct that can be scaled across the millions

26:43

of decisions that I have to make around this

26:45

is totally moot. He doesn't care. It's

26:47

how can I be in the news in the headline

26:50

today? because it's been seventy two hours. It's

26:52

just But I do think I I do think other

26:54

companies do struggle with this Netflix. I

26:56

do think Amazon like,

26:59

what books should it have should it have weapon books on there? Should it

27:01

it's really you know, with the with

27:03

everything out there, you have to be

27:05

making these decisions real time.

27:07

again, just like with Twitter bringing it back to it, sometimes you make

27:09

a mistake, then you put it back up. Where I'm

27:11

going

27:11

is, the the conversations they're having at

27:13

Netflix and at Amazon or

27:16

you know, marvel or those are honest conversations.

27:18

They're really trying to figure out a way to thread the

27:20

needle here, given given shareholder

27:23

interest, given concerns around free

27:25

speech and giving it to an autocrat.

27:27

It's not an honest conversation at

27:29

Twitter. The actual concept.

27:32

The actual construct. The actual fidelity

27:34

to the concept means is meaningless

27:36

to Elon. It's like -- Mhmm. -- how can I be

27:38

in the news today? That that's what drives everything. That's

27:40

the tail wagging the dog here.

27:42

Yeah. There's no There's no

27:45

there's no order. He should have

27:47

celebrated those emails because it

27:49

showed mistakes were made and they fixed it. Like,

27:51

that to me is the way it should work. I don't

27:54

know. I I don't not expect mistakes.

27:56

by the way. And I don't know what I would do if I was anti Jazzy

27:58

on this anti Semitic film. I probably would have

27:59

a would just say, you know what? We're not gonna do

28:02

that. Like and

28:03

you also have to resist

28:06

people

28:06

like Greenblatt who again, it's

28:08

his job to to do this. Right?

28:11

Or not resist him. And say, I've

28:13

decided my mind and I'm gonna take

28:15

it down. You can go get it somewhere else.

28:16

It's less of a threat on Amazon. If

28:18

Amazon I think Amazon in

28:21

a different artistry portrays people

28:24

in negative lights that sometimes as

28:27

bigoted. And I think that should be

28:29

allowed where it gets dangerous is when you

28:31

put that content on Facebook or Twitter and

28:33

the algorithms go, this outrageous people.

28:35

So we're gonna give it more sunlight than it would get

28:37

on its own. Yeah. Yeah. So I

28:39

don't it it's look, it kinda

28:41

comes back to the same thing. A hallmark of

28:43

a free society is that you can

28:45

pretty much say anything about

28:47

anyone to anyone. And

28:49

I'm I are on the

28:51

side of, okay, we're gonna put it up,

28:53

but they shouldn't be recommending it because it

28:55

pisses people off. shouldn't be on the front, you know, in

28:57

the home screen because it causes controversy.

29:00

Yeah. They just minimize -- Right. --

29:02

minimize it. I mean, you know, I had an interesting

29:04

a text back and forth that Anthony is Garamucci because he was on some weird he

29:06

was on thing. And I said, he's convinced

29:08

he was shadow bad. And I I you know,

29:10

we had a good I said, read this,

29:12

this, and this, and we had a great talk about

29:14

that. I said, I think you're you're trafficking

29:16

with people who are not honest. You

29:19

know, like and you need to think

29:21

about, like, Is there proof Has happened? And

29:23

I was like, in all these emails

29:25

show, no, it doesn't happen like

29:28

this. then but the problem is once you get believing a

29:30

conspiracy theory, you have to

29:31

you have to live that conspiracy theory all

29:33

the way to the end. Mhmm.

29:34

You really do. and

29:36

you have no you you get trapped

29:38

in it. And so you it is The only

29:40

thing you can say is, oh, I was wrong,

29:42

and that is impossible in a conspiracy

29:44

theory minded thing. anyway, it's an interesting

29:46

thing. There's gonna be more of it. And

29:49

and these people did not think they were gonna have

29:51

to do this and nor are they qualified to

29:53

do so. Anyway, we'll go on a quick

29:55

break. We come back. We'll hear a lesson

29:57

from Professor Galloway about leadership.

29:59

Maybe they can take some

29:59

tips from you. and will speak with a friend

30:02

of pivot Ressa about the free press

30:04

dictatorships in social media. She

30:06

knows a thing or

30:06

two about moderation. Support

30:11

for

30:12

pivot comes from Burrow. This commercial

30:15

break is going to be more interactive than

30:17

usual. I want to dearless nerve,

30:19

think about your couch for a moment. How does it make you

30:21

feel? Is it super comfortable, structurally

30:23

sound, and staying free? Is

30:25

it somehow exciting? If

30:28

your answer is yes, that's great for you. For the

30:30

rest of us, there's Burrow. If your

30:32

furniture game is in need of an upgrade, Burrow is

30:34

the place to go offer a slew of great

30:36

pieces from sofas to dressers to

30:38

nightstands and rugs, making easier to breathe

30:40

new life into every room in your house.

30:42

If you bought big bulky pieces of

30:45

furniture before, you know that shipping costs

30:47

can add up fast, but with burrow,

30:49

shipping is fast and free even for

30:51

large items like couches and bed frames.

30:53

Plus, everything they sell is designed for the

30:55

way you actually live, which means that

30:57

their credences have built in cord organizing

31:00

holes at every corner. Right

31:02

now, you can get seventy five dollars off your

31:04

first order at borough dot com

31:06

slash pivot. That's

31:07

borough, BURR0W

31:10

dot com slash

31:10

pivot for seventy five dollars off

31:12

your borough purchase, borough dot

31:15

com slash

31:16

pivot.

31:20

Support for today's

31:20

show comes from Shopify. Annoring

31:23

notifications seem to dominate our days, but

31:25

sometimes they can signal money hitting your

31:27

bank account. That

31:29

sound marks another sale on

31:31

Shopify, the all in one e commerce platform

31:33

that can help start, run, and grow your

31:35

business. Shopify makes it simple to sell to anyone

31:37

from anywhere. Whether your thing is vintage

31:39

Ts or customized skateboards, you can start

31:41

selling with a platform, simplify commerce,

31:43

or business owners. With Shopify, you'll

31:45

create an online store that captures your cultivates

31:47

a new customer base and welcomes loyal followers.

31:50

Their platform has all the sales channels

31:52

sorted so your business can keep growing from

31:54

an in person POS's them to

31:56

an all in one e commerce platform. They

31:58

can even help your business grow across social

32:00

media platforms including TikTok,

32:02

Facebook, and Instagram. And

32:04

thanks to twenty four seven support, Shopify

32:06

has your back every step of the way. Sign

32:08

up for a free trial at shopify

32:10

dot com slash pivot, all lowercase.

32:13

go to shopify dot com slash pivot to

32:15

start selling online today. Shopify dot

32:18

com slash pivot.

32:21

Okay,

32:24

Scott. We're back. We're gonna do a

32:26

little something different tonight. We should do this more often. We're

32:28

gonna hear a lesson. from our favorite professor,

32:31

Scott Galloway, to set the stage here.

32:33

You've been

32:33

thinking about corporate decision making like we

32:35

just

32:35

talked about especially in light of the cast of

32:37

Twitter, but elsewhere all over the place Tim

32:39

Cook, YouTube, everywhere, where Elon seems to making

32:41

big decisions according to Twitter polls, for

32:44

example. So I

32:44

want you to talk to us about the best way

32:46

for business leaders to make

32:49

decisions and which stakeholders

32:51

should they prioritize? Take it

32:53

away, professor God.

32:54

I don't know if it's the best way, but it's my way. And

32:56

over the last twenty years, I have advised personally

32:59

either the CEO or the CMO of thirty one

33:01

of the hundred largest consumer companies

33:03

in the world. and I say that because I'm desperate for other

33:05

people's affirmation. But anyways I was just thinking.

33:07

I should talk to smart people. When the

33:10

SCP or the CMO, want

33:13

you to do something. It's kind of an

33:15

omnibus large macro decision. Should

33:17

we be opening our own stores? Can you do

33:19

an audit of our channel strategy? Or

33:21

what should social strategy, big hairy

33:23

questions that require a lot

33:25

of thinking you come back in and you do a two

33:27

hour presentation. When the CEO

33:29

would call me into his office, and it was

33:31

always a hymn. Occasionally, not always, most

33:33

of the time it was a hymn. He would be

33:35

about a specific thing along the lines of thinking

33:37

of doing this. What do you think? I'm thinking

33:39

of acquiring this company or we're thinking

33:41

of making a statement

33:43

around Charlottesville or making a statement

33:46

around this. you have two things. You

33:48

have your gut, but what I would say is let's

33:50

create a construct for how we make this

33:52

decision in a more thoughtful way that will at least

33:54

inform our gut. You don't have to listen

33:56

to it But how do you distill decisions down to something

33:58

more quantitative? And I'll use two

34:00

examples. The first is Nike's

34:02

decision to come out and actively

34:04

politicize Nike, which they

34:06

did when they endorsed Colin Kaepernick in

34:08

the midst of

34:10

the movement where he was taking a knee. A lot

34:12

of people fairly or unfairly said, look, this is a

34:15

guy who's blessed to be in America. He's making

34:17

millions of dollars a year. and

34:19

he has weaponized the national anthem, and

34:22

it's totally inappropriate. Now,

34:24

I I don't I don't agree with that, but I

34:26

can understand the argument. So at

34:28

the time for Nike to

34:30

kind of give him a bear hug was a

34:32

risk, or at least perceived

34:34

as a risk. And this is

34:36

how you break it down. You

34:38

immediately segment their stakeholders

34:40

and decide what is the level of impact

34:43

to the positive or to the negative of each stakeholder

34:45

and then kind of add it up and decide whether

34:47

or not it's a good idea. So let's

34:49

do that. Two thirds

34:51

of Nike's business actually comes from outside of the

34:53

United States, and nobody outside of the United

34:56

States thinks the US has figured out

34:58

race relations. The

35:00

majority of the biggest markets look at the U. S. and think on race

35:02

relations were kind of screwed up that that is one

35:04

of our Achilles heel that we don't

35:06

shape ourselves in glory there.

35:08

Internally, the third of Nike's business that comes from the domestic

35:11

market in the United States, two thirds

35:13

of it is people under the

35:15

age of thirty. And

35:17

a large portion of the bulk

35:20

of that business is from

35:22

people of color. So

35:24

when you really nail down or you go

35:26

to, okay, some people are gonna like this

35:28

decision and see it as leadership and

35:30

endorse it and feel good about it. And other

35:32

people, it's going

35:34

to upset and they're going to think less of the Nike brand.

35:36

But when you talk about the latter, when

35:38

you take the two thirds out of

35:40

international, when you

35:42

take the the consumer base that is the U.

35:44

S. you're really mathematically

35:46

talking about probably three

35:48

percent to five percent of NIKE's

35:50

revenue Ressa.

35:52

is in the blast zone where they will think less

35:55

of the brand. They're generally red state. They don't

35:57

buy Nike's. Over the age of thirty

35:59

five, that video showing

36:02

that individual will burning their nikes. I joke that that person

36:04

had to go out and buy their first pair of

36:06

nikes. So this was on a

36:08

risk adjusted basis a

36:10

really smart

36:12

move because it pulsed and reinforced the brand. It's

36:14

demonstrating leadership qualities. It strengthened the

36:16

brand among a constituency

36:18

that makes up the lion

36:21

share of their revenue. Good idea,

36:23

huge upside, not a lot

36:25

of downside. They're perceived as being a

36:27

leader despite the fact they really weren't

36:29

taking much risk. So not only was it the right thing to do, people

36:31

would argue it was a smart thing to do. Now

36:34

let's go to Twitter. Musk

36:36

has politicized Twitter

36:38

towards the GOP. Just as

36:40

Nike went more progressive,

36:42

Musk has gone much more

36:44

conservative, much more GOP. now.

36:48

Let's talk about the business. Let's segment it,

36:50

right? About forty percent to

36:52

fifty percent of the business comes from the U. S.

36:54

in the U. S. thirty eight

36:56

percent of their buyers identify as

36:58

Democrats, thirty percent Republican,

37:00

thirty two percent independent

37:03

or other. So Tesla owners actually lean

37:05

a little bit left. You could if you

37:07

had to describe them, but they would be center left.

37:09

Their biggest market in the US

37:12

is California. So you have arguably a center

37:14

left leaning group. And

37:16

there was some research done

37:18

by the morning council And

37:21

they do a net favorability rating

37:24

where they say do you have a favorable view of the

37:26

brand and then they minus the number of people who

37:28

have a not favorable view of

37:30

the brand. And across all US adults, the Twitter

37:32

brand has lost five and a half percentage

37:34

points. The Tesla brand's six

37:36

percentage points

37:38

amongst Democrats. Get

37:40

this, Tesla has lost

37:42

net favorability of twenty

37:44

point three percent

37:46

just in thirty days October to November.

37:49

across Republicans, it's up

37:52

three point nine percent. So

37:54

when you take the larger

37:56

base, which is center

37:58

left, and times it by point

38:00

eight. And then you add

38:02

in forty five percent

38:04

times point

38:06

you know, point point 044

38:09

percent you end up essentially with

38:11

the exact opposite of Nike. You're

38:13

making a move that

38:16

across your different segments is a lot

38:18

of downside for the larger part of

38:20

your market and pulses and pleases

38:24

a lesson horton part of your market. It is a bad decision.

38:26

It is a stupid decision

38:28

that distinctive what you think of it

38:30

politically is not economic. So let's recap.

38:32

What do you

38:34

wanna do? You always want to take these qualitative decisions and

38:36

attempt to distill them down

38:38

quantitatively. Even if it's impossible,

38:40

you'll learn along the way and it'll

38:42

inform you decision. You wanna

38:44

segment the marketplace. You

38:46

wanna have a sober conversation around who

38:48

registers upside and downside

38:50

across those

38:52

different segments. how important each of those segments are to the

38:54

business and then just do a bottoms up

38:56

mathematical equation

38:58

on what the net negative or

39:01

positive as economically, and that will inform your

39:03

decision. Nike embracing

39:06

Capernac was on a risk

39:08

adjusted basis, a great

39:10

idea for shareholders. Twitter

39:12

embracing, right

39:14

leaning, ideology here on a net basis

39:16

is a really bad idea.

39:21

fantastic. That was really interesting. Let me ask you a couple

39:23

of quick questions, so we get to

39:26

Maria.

39:26

Is there a difference between

39:28

private and public companies? because Elon owns

39:30

privately. Nike's a public company. The difficulties

39:33

of drowning out noise seems to be

39:35

the biggest problem CEOs face leaders

39:37

face now is droughting

39:39

out noise. And even I'm a small

39:42

leader, but sometimes I'm often telling

39:44

people who work

39:46

with me, just establishing the noise. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It

39:48

doesn't matter. I say it a lot. And I'm

39:50

doing it on an intuitive basis a lot of

39:52

the time because I've been there,

39:54

done that. But is there a

39:56

difference between public and private

39:58

and understanding that

39:59

much of it is noise like you just

40:01

talked

40:01

about with Jessica

40:04

Yellen. It's harder as a public company because every three months, every

40:06

ninety days, you know, you're gonna get a lot of questions

40:08

and you have to answer. So

40:11

when -- Right. -- in and out burger

40:13

decides to put psalms on their

40:14

on their trays that I think

40:17

a lot of people probably think I

40:19

could do without that. It would be likely

40:21

that would be brought up several times

40:23

on quarterly earnings calls. But

40:26

they don't have to do it. And when Cartier

40:28

decided to pull their name

40:30

off of Lincoln's and air

40:32

fresheners and go go take the

40:34

company all their basically cancel all their

40:36

licensing agreements because they thought it was bad for

40:38

the brand. they took a

40:40

huge hit over the course of four

40:42

quarters, but they could they had that flexibility because they

40:44

were a private company. They can do things in private. And

40:46

Michael Dell took those bigger

40:48

or those huge tech companies private.

40:50

He said there's so much there's

40:52

so much blood that's gotta happen here in

40:54

cutting. We wanna do it under the auspices of

40:57

closed stores. So it's harder for public

40:59

companies. Now granted, they get a bump

41:01

on valuation by being public because they bring

41:03

in retail investors who are generally

41:05

more tolerant of higher valuation. So there's an upside that

41:07

you get cheaper capital, but the downside is

41:10

you get a scorecard every ninety days and

41:12

people are in

41:14

your face. It's harder to take contrary positions as a public

41:16

company. I mean, that requires real

41:18

leadership because the people are in

41:20

your face every ninety days,

41:22

asking you questions, and asking you

41:24

how, you know, your move on China

41:26

has affected the numbers this

41:28

quarter, you're just more subject to short

41:30

term pressures. Right.

41:31

Right. Or or or you sort

41:33

of lean into those kind of things? because,

41:35

like, Balenciaga has had to apologize for

41:38

ads featuring

41:40

BDSM Teddy bears, I think,

41:42

bondage bears. I had not heard

41:44

that. They sometimes they try to wander

41:47

into controversy for business.

41:50

Correct? right, that you'd want to do things like that. That it's it

41:52

mathematically, it's a good thing. Correct? And

41:54

some could say to Elon's many

41:57

of his fans say, He

41:59

understands. He's

41:59

doing this. He's keeping them in the news. He's getting

42:02

people interested. And then he touts the

42:04

numbers, for example. Does that

42:06

matters? Is noise sometimes a

42:07

good thing? Yeah. I remember I was on the border of an outfitters and the

42:10

family is the Republicans.

42:12

They're wonderful people. They're conservatives.

42:14

And when

42:16

Charlottesville happened, And

42:18

and the CEO was was very much in

42:20

favor of those. We said we should come out

42:22

with a public statement and just say that this

42:25

this type of bigotry has no place anywhere. And I

42:27

said, it's especially important that you

42:30

say that because across your employee base and

42:32

across Pennsylvania, you're known as

42:34

a conservative. And so it's it's especially powerful when you set.

42:36

And also, the thing

42:38

about a statement like that is it's

42:40

highly perishable. It's

42:42

the first and second people who say it to get credit. Everyone else

42:44

just seen us like, okay, it's safe. Now

42:46

we'll we'll we'll say it. But

42:49

-- Right. -- but I think that

42:51

stuff everything has gone so

42:54

political than

42:56

now people expect their companies. And also, by the way, I think it's okay for a

42:58

company to say. And, you

43:00

know, we're not gonna

43:02

be political. People are here. I

43:04

forget who it wasn't tech. We had a discussion

43:06

about the last year our company. Base Camp. The

43:08

company basically said, look, we're here to help you

43:10

develop economic security and build

43:12

something great. what you do on evenings and weekends and who you support or don't

43:14

support is up to you, and we're just not we're just

43:16

not doing this. I would say I found that it's

43:18

ignoring

43:18

what your employees are

43:20

talking about your employees are interested. I think Netflix is in the middle of that right now.

43:22

They have an employee base that gets has

43:24

opinions, and then they have a CEO who

43:26

wants to make his own decisions. I

43:30

so that's that's gonna always

43:32

cause. And they just have to live with it. That's, you know,

43:34

that's the employee base they have. You know,

43:36

this maximized shareholder value at

43:38

all cost

43:38

just sort of Friedman ask, that's changed obviously over

43:40

time. Who do you think the shareholders really

43:42

are? They've talked about stakeholders, all this

43:44

stuff? Is that just a lot of

43:48

nonsense in a lot of ways people look at ESG and other

43:50

things? Or is it important to think about

43:53

employees that money

43:56

shareholders society in general, does that shifted? I do think it shifted.

43:58

And I remember I was

44:00

on the board of Eddie Bower, and I was

44:02

put on the board by the creditors

44:04

Ressa take it

44:06

through bankruptcy. And I remember we,

44:09

the highest bid we got was from a licensing

44:11

company that was just going to take the eighty

44:13

dollar brand. and and and

44:16

licenses out to different

44:18

licensees out of China. And that meant laying

44:20

off two thousand people in

44:22

Seattle. Mhmm. And we as the board

44:24

said, we're not gonna accept this bid. We're gonna open

44:26

bidding again and see if we can

44:28

get at least the same offer from someone who

44:30

will keep some are the majority of the employees here. Because when you're talking

44:32

about two thousand people, I mean, that's

44:34

real pain. Right? Yeah. And then

44:36

immediately, I got a call from

44:38

the hedge or one of the hedge funds

44:40

to put me on the board and some twenty six

44:42

year old douchebags gave me a lesson on the

44:44

invisible hand of economics and how I how I

44:46

had no right to be making decisions

44:48

for shareholders. So you have an

44:50

active debate, but I find that

44:52

generally speaking,

44:54

directors are civic minded

44:56

and it's become the transition from

44:58

shareholder to stakeholder are not being lazy around

45:00

just what moves the share price up.

45:02

is an important conversation. I find that people are much more thoughtful

45:05

around their carbon footprint. I

45:07

think, unfortunately, ESG has

45:10

backfired. It's like,

45:12

well, who decides what is environmental

45:14

and sustainable? It just it

45:17

it's it's turned into something that

45:19

is kind of more bullshit and more jazz hands than actually

45:21

doing anything. Like, Southwest Airlines got some big ESG award.

45:23

I'm like, they they consume

45:26

two billion two billion gallons of

45:28

gasoline to to tell me how it works. It

45:30

opens yourself up to people who are critics for sure.

45:32

But I think there's been AII do think

45:34

there's been shift and also some of it is just quite frankly back

45:36

to shareholder driven because caring

45:38

about your employees in an

45:40

economy that's

45:42

not about brands and manufacturing capability.

45:44

It's about intellectual property margins

45:46

and tech and employees where

45:50

basically eighty percent of your and the the players

45:52

wins. You gotta listen to your

45:54

employees. Like, if you have a bad rap,

45:57

a glass door,

46:00

I mean, it can it can literally bring down a company.

46:02

Yep. Thank you,

46:03

professor Galloway. And now we're gonna

46:05

bring in our friend

46:08

of pivot Maria

46:09

Ressa is

46:12

the CEO, Co

46:14

Ressa and President of Rappler, the

46:17

top digital news site in the Philippines. She's the winner

46:20

of the two thousand twenty one Nobel

46:22

Peace Prize. You may have heard of it for

46:24

her work documenting social media

46:26

manipulation. She's also covered a

46:28

violent anti drug campaign by the

46:30

former president Rodrigo Duterte.

46:32

He's all she's also the author of a new

46:34

book how to stand up to a dictator, the

46:36

fight for our future. Welcome Maria Ressa.

46:38

Hi. Thanks for having me Cara,

46:40

Scott. So just so people know, Maria is

46:42

a friend of mine, has become a friend of

46:45

mine, but we started out because she was the one that alerted me

46:47

in I think two thousand sixteen,

46:50

seventeen about the problems at Facebook because they

46:52

weren't listening

46:54

to her. So I I credit with you with

46:57

with radicalizing me in a lot

46:59

of ways, in a weird way to

47:01

what was happening. to social

47:04

media. So I want you to just jump right

47:06

in here. Social media is supposed to be a

47:08

democratizing tool. We've seen it used

47:10

successfully by leaders who oppose

47:12

democracy, though, Trump, Duterte, Bolsonaro. So talk a

47:14

little bit about the overall thing, and what

47:16

got you to notice it? Because you

47:18

have been creating a site, not

47:20

unlike all things digital, but you were focusing

47:22

in on anti drug

47:24

campaign and things like that, at

47:26

Nueterra Tech. talk a little bit

47:28

about how you came to be this fighter for social media

47:30

justice, really. Oh my gosh. Well, first,

47:32

you know, the the days

47:35

when it was an enabler for good

47:38

or long haul. I mean, Kara, you know this. You

47:40

guys have been doing a lot of that re reporting

47:42

already. I looked at it

47:44

post Arab spring. And then when we were watching the Arab spring, I was

47:46

like, oh my god. It's social network analysis.

47:49

I came from doing counterterrorism,

47:53

terrorism network analysis of

47:55

how we track the

47:58

spread of a

47:59

virulent ideology there's both the

48:02

physical and then there's also the

48:04

spread of the idea. And social

48:06

media, social

48:08

networks. So seemed a fantastic way to do it. And then when social media

48:10

came along, it's times

48:12

four. So looking at it as a

48:14

force for

48:16

good, that was around twenty ten, twenty eleven.

48:18

And

48:18

then by twenty

48:20

thirteen or twenty fourteen, well,

48:23

twenty twelve the end of twenty eleven to twenty twelve is

48:25

when we set up Rappler in the Philippines,

48:28

which really was just first

48:30

a Facebook page. And if had

48:32

better search, we probably wouldn't even have set

48:34

up

48:34

a website, but thank god we did. Anyway,

48:37

by twenty

48:38

third teen. It was social

48:40

media for social good. I

48:41

was a truest of true believers.

48:44

We began to see all

48:46

these ships happened the

48:48

end of twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen.

48:50

And that's when the danger

48:54

signals arrived. Yeah. And you called you called it to me and and you wrote

48:56

it this in the book, but you said the Philippines were a

48:58

canary in the coal mine of coordinated

49:00

social media

49:02

attacks. and you brought that to me. You brought because you were having a real

49:04

problem with the Facebook people and

49:06

you started listening. And I

49:08

don't think I helped you very much, but

49:11

You gone to Singapore to talk to them,

49:14

the people who are Facebook locally.

49:16

And then you you approached Mark Zuckerberg

49:18

himself and he made a joke talk a little bit

49:20

about that so people can have context of

49:22

what you were trying to do. You were warning

49:24

people. I was because it was the data

49:26

that we were getting was extremely

49:28

alarming, and I gave that data to

49:30

Facebook in August of twenty

49:32

sixteen. So this is

49:34

before

49:34

the presidential elections before and

49:36

it

49:37

was I

49:38

it looked like, you know, a torrent

49:41

because most most Americans think about this as free

49:43

speech, but it really isn't flipping it

49:46

the other way where free speech is

49:48

like a bullet, where disinformation is a

49:50

bullet, and then the gun that's

49:52

being used is information

49:54

operations. So what we were living through

49:56

was the beginning of this, and I went to

49:58

Facebook in Singapore, I said,

49:59

hey, like, Tell us, this

50:02

is very alarming. Can you give me more

50:04

data? This is the data I have? We

50:06

wanna do

50:06

a story, and at the very least,

50:08

please give me a statement. It took a

50:10

month or so. I held the story. I wrote

50:12

two of the three parts of the weaponization of the

50:15

Internet series. I held it because I

50:17

thought it was more important to actually

50:19

fix it. This is where I was still not easily

50:20

thinking that they would fix it immediately.

50:22

Mhmm. It came out

50:24

in October, but in in August

50:27

twenty sixteen, I cracked the joke because I thought it was it

50:30

wouldn't have happened. I said, if we don't do

50:32

something about this, this is one of those things

50:34

that, you know, Trump could win.

50:37

and all of us around the

50:39

table laughed. By twenty

50:42

seventeen, the this would be the F8

50:44

conference. I was sitting about

50:46

a dozen startup founders that all relied on Facebook,

50:48

different businesses, different industries.

50:50

I was the only one from media at that

50:54

table. And and I

50:56

asked Mark to come to the Philippines

50:58

because I felt like he met he didn't

51:00

understand the power that

51:02

this plot form had. Mhmm. And, you know, what I was coming at it

51:04

for is my god, what a tremendous power

51:06

for good this

51:08

could be. So I I told

51:10

them I said at that point ninety seven

51:12

percent of Filipinos on the Internet are on

51:14

Facebook. Facebook is

51:16

our Internet. And everyone around the table was quiet, and,

51:18

you know, Mark started frowning, and I

51:20

thought, you know, I it was, like, too

51:22

pushy

51:22

because I'd asked him twice to come

51:24

visit. then he

51:26

he just looked at me and he said,

51:28

wait wait, Maria. Where are the

51:30

other three percent? Oh, no.

51:32

we all laugh, but that

51:34

is growth at all costs. Right? Yeah.

51:37

So we we have a tendency to

51:39

be reductive and just talk about

51:41

all a big tech. Yeah. When you're dealing

51:43

with Google or YouTube or Facebook

51:45

or Twitter, can you stack

51:47

rank who you

51:50

would argue expresses or

51:52

has the greatest desire to let citizenship

51:54

come at the cost of shareholders

51:57

or

51:57

vice versa? You mean, who puts company about over

51:59

country? That's more exactly for you. Right? I

52:02

mean -- Yeah. -- so of the

52:04

plat of these

52:06

technology companies,

52:06

Facebook had the

52:08

most impact on the Philippines, so every

52:11

little thing they did, every shift

52:13

we could feel. You know, it

52:15

was like, we could feel immediately. And I would watch all

52:17

of the data

52:18

because I run. At that

52:20

point, we were the largest online

52:23

you know, news site. And so

52:25

it was I think that was one.

52:27

The second is YouTube. YouTube

52:30

was is

52:30

in in many ways has has gone below the radar screen

52:33

because it while it's posted on YouTube, it's

52:35

it's also the second largest

52:38

search engine. And in the Philippines, starting in twenty thirteen, even

52:40

though we had dismal speeds, Filipinos

52:44

uploaded and downloaded the most number

52:46

of videos. YouTube.

52:49

Twitter was very,

52:50

you know, only I

52:52

think when we began Rappler, only seven

52:54

percent of Filipinos were on

52:56

on Twitter. Right now, it's roughly sixty three percent TikTok

52:59

is gaining ground. And

53:01

TikTok is is scary

53:04

actually of all the platforms because if

53:06

I think of Facebook as kind of like

53:08

a blunt mallet, I think of

53:10

TikTok as a

53:12

surgical probe. But in

53:13

in addition to impact who when you walk into an

53:15

office and you get a meeting with the CEO

53:17

of these firms, and you can show data

53:19

that there's some

53:22

there's some real damage happening on their platform. Who do

53:24

you expect to take it most seriously?

53:26

And who do you expect most consistently to

53:28

just delay an obfuscate? And I'm asking

53:32

you, I mean, again, we tend to group them all and

53:34

assume that they're all the same people. And they're not --

53:36

Okay. -- they have a different approach. What's been your experience

53:38

with each of those firms?

53:40

Well, so let me first say that we partners with

53:42

all of these platforms. But as as

53:44

I began to

53:45

write the book, as I began to

53:47

become more disillusioned, I've

53:50

actually actually pulled myself out of Rappler's day to day

53:52

in terms of editorial and operations.

53:54

So I haven't dealt

53:56

with them in terms of

53:59

day to day

53:59

operations because I think the problem is

54:02

far more systemic. I don't want to

54:04

argue for just what will make Rappler

54:06

better. I want them

54:08

to fix the systemic problems that are there. And of all of

54:10

them, I mean, what's part of it is because I'm

54:12

this is my thirty six year as a journalist.

54:15

And so even at the beginning when

54:16

they were all beginning to set up

54:18

their offices in in Southeast Asia

54:20

and in Manila. I could

54:22

talk to people. I could talk to the heads of

54:24

each of these groups. They would always listen,

54:26

but I was never

54:28

certain in

54:30

terms of comprehension, would it be run up the flagpole, I

54:33

believe so? And there were people I

54:35

would I could trust

54:36

in each one of these groups

54:38

I think they can see the harms. And I think

54:40

inevitably almost all of them will come back with, you know,

54:43

we can only do so much

54:46

you know, it has to be all throughout I mean, Karen, you you

54:48

know this. Right? Yeah. I do. Let me say a

54:50

a particular thing in the book. You talked

54:52

about the Google report on problems

54:56

that it got suppressed or Ressa just

54:58

didn't publish it. Jigsaw. Talk about that.

55:00

Jigsaw. At Jigsaw, there was this great researcher

55:03

who was they they they give them a lot of money to do research.

55:05

Yeah. And I know a lot of researchers at all

55:07

these places, and they're all

55:10

vaguely depressed.

55:10

I would say, if I would if I

55:12

would talk to them. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine if we could

55:14

actually get all of that data and

55:16

then you'd be able

55:17

to help Well, in this one,

55:20

this is Camille Francois. She

55:22

was the lead researcher for jigsaw. This

55:24

was early the end of twenty

55:26

sixteen, twenty seventeen. She had gathered

55:28

together about a dozen researchers

55:30

all around the world. And the

55:32

draft, by August twenty

55:34

seventeen, there was a draft like,

55:36

global reach, including for the first time,

55:38

the first time I saw gender gender

55:42

disinformation that women

55:44

and marginalized LGBTQ

55:46

that would if you're marginalized in

55:48

the real world, you'll get further marginalized because

55:50

of the way the code works. Right?

55:52

So it was the first time I saw that, but I also

55:54

saw it broken down in four different ways. If that report had

55:56

been published at that time,

55:59

I am certain because of the people involved in

56:02

it, and because it was jigsaw, the

56:04

think tank of Google. Right? It would

56:06

have had

56:08

tremendous impact for good. I think the warning signals would

56:10

have gone up much earlier. But instead,

56:12

you know, by I think October

56:16

I came to New York, to the jigsaw and and I

56:18

had lunch. This is what I wrote in the

56:20

book. I had lunch with Camille. And Camille

56:23

said, oh, you know,

56:25

We're not gonna publish it as a whole,

56:27

but each one of you can publish

56:30

your own, what you've

56:32

written. That doesn't help. Right? because you don't have the big picture. It's exactly

56:34

what tech does. It atomizes for

56:36

meaninglessness. So, you know,

56:38

it didn't surprise

56:40

me that a few months

56:42

later, Camille left, Jigsaw.

56:44

I mean, again, having said that, I

56:46

still work with Jigsaw. I never

56:48

did get a clear reason

56:50

why the report wasn't published.

56:52

Mhmm. But it's the sad

56:55

for business. Yeah. Well, I

56:57

mean, what's bad for business if

56:59

they continue this? They wreck the

57:02

environment we live in, well, I suppose this is like

57:04

climate

57:04

change. Right? Yeah. Right. Right.

57:06

Yeah. The US has a special relationship.

57:08

with the Philippines. We have bilateral defense agreements. We have,

57:11

I mean, we're inextricably linked to the

57:13

Philippines from a defense standpoint. Do

57:15

you think the government has

57:18

an obligation to play more of a role in these

57:20

types of issues, and they might with

57:22

other southeastern Asian nations. I

57:26

think that

57:26

the US government has has to

57:28

play a role ahead in some ways like

57:31

the technology companies It also abdicated responsibility

57:33

for these American tech companies. Right?

57:36

I mean, now it's not just the

57:38

American tech

57:40

companies, TikTok and China are moving in

57:42

and moving in faster than the

57:44

growth of these original companies. But,

57:46

you know, the the kinds of problems

57:50

that these companies created because

57:52

the government, the US government

57:54

failed to regulate them. And

57:56

this sounds, you know, people People

57:59

say, you know, well,

57:59

it is free speech. It's not free speech. This is free speech

58:02

used to stifle free speech.

58:04

This is a man form

58:05

that prioritizes All

58:08

of them, social media, prioritizes the spread

58:10

of lies. Things that will

58:12

keep you scrolling, you both know this.

58:14

Think about the upside

58:17

down incentive structure that

58:17

creates for everything,

58:20

including the shifts

58:20

in values, the shifts in the way you

58:22

look at the world, the way you act, January

58:26

sixth is a natural extension

58:28

of this kind of upside

58:30

down. I mean, I always talk about

58:32

Netflix and how we're living in the upside

58:34

down. So Okay. So

58:36

has the government has the US government

58:38

done enough? Absolutely not. The EU

58:40

is stepping in, but it's very late.

58:42

very late for countries like mine -- Right. -- we elected for

58:45

Danone Markle Junior, the only

58:47

son in namesake of of

58:49

the former dictator who was ousted

58:52

thirty six years earlier in a people

58:54

power revolt that sparked

58:56

democracy movements in other parts of the

58:58

world. So We're

59:00

here because of this. In

59:02

this in terms of the special relationship you

59:04

talk

59:04

about, though, Scott, what the

59:06

The

59:07

Philippines and the United States, you know,

59:09

the Philippines is America's former colony.

59:10

We were under Spanish

59:14

colonial rule for three hundred years. I mean, our one sentence history

59:16

is we spent three hundred years

59:19

in a convent and fifty

59:21

years in Hollywood. So, you know,

59:23

this is a country that has a long relationship with the United

59:26

States. It is also extremely

59:27

strategic because

59:30

of the South China

59:32

Sea, what the Filipinos call West Philippine

59:35

Sea. And with

59:37

China, we we the Philippines

59:39

play a huge role.

59:40

So I think the United States

59:42

has, as it is

59:44

lost, in looking at what

59:48

is happening only through political lenses.

59:51

The politics of it is the

59:53

end of the cascading failures.

59:56

that's the impact. They need to go up to look

59:58

at data privacy, to look at

1:00:00

the tech and the data, and

1:00:03

regulate that just like you

1:00:05

know, like a better business bureau for

1:00:07

our

1:00:07

minds, for our Which

1:00:09

they don't. Which which they don't tend to wanna

1:00:11

do. So one of the things

1:00:14

the publishers that had had been posing

1:00:16

up to these companies, including your own, to get

1:00:18

traffic. That's what they're that was their what

1:00:20

they said. They're also facing a declining

1:00:22

business model.

1:00:24

how is Rappler handling the business

1:00:26

challengers? What what now though? I was someone's

1:00:28

asking, where do you go now?

1:00:31

How do you then create a business model for

1:00:33

journalism that pushes back? Because a lot

1:00:35

of these platforms have been a

1:00:37

co opted by you know,

1:00:40

whoever, whether it's Bongbong

1:00:42

Marcos or Duterte or

1:00:44

anyone or Elon Musk. They've

1:00:45

been quarantined. You're talking about

1:00:47

either state cap sure or, you know, like like

1:00:49

rich person capture. Right. But let's be really clear

1:00:52

that the old world advertising

1:00:54

that we used to do is very, very different

1:00:56

from Mike targeting, which

1:00:58

is

1:00:58

what what the tech companies do. I mean,

1:01:00

of course, all of that is is

1:01:02

seeping

1:01:02

into the the media. Look,

1:01:04

what we did in Rappler and

1:01:07

In a strange way, you know,

1:01:09

I guess,

1:01:10

president Duterte actually

1:01:12

forced us to find

1:01:14

an alternative sustainable business model.

1:01:16

What we did was when the

1:01:18

government tried to shut us down

1:01:21

in January twenty eighteen, we dropped

1:01:23

within four months forty nine percent of our advertising revenues.

1:01:26

And the government's war of

1:01:28

attrition

1:01:29

would have succeeded if we

1:01:31

didn't find another way. And

1:01:31

so for two weeks, all of us

1:01:34

in Rappler, the core the core

1:01:36

managers came together, we were looking at everything we

1:01:38

were doing.

1:01:40

And We said, you know, what are we doing that that

1:01:42

these advertisers were too

1:01:43

scared to advertise? We were like crap

1:01:46

tonight. Right? We were doing good

1:01:48

journalism, but No one wanted touch

1:01:50

us because power was targeting

1:01:52

us. And so we looked

1:01:54

at strangely enough, it was

1:01:57

our work on disinformation

1:01:58

on discovering this

1:02:01

information, using natural language

1:02:03

processing to find the messages, the

1:02:05

meta narratives that are seeded -- Mhmm. --

1:02:07

and then doing network analysis to find

1:02:09

which networks continue to spread them. We I started

1:02:11

looking at them like recidivist networks,

1:02:13

and we created, we

1:02:16

spun off, we

1:02:18

created a sustainable business

1:02:20

model using data and

1:02:22

tech. And it was, I

1:02:24

guess, news

1:02:24

was the loss leader

1:02:26

for this. Mhmm. Right? Is that something every news organization can

1:02:29

do? Not yet. I think we're

1:02:31

in creative destruction. of

1:02:34

the reason I could care the

1:02:36

international fund for public interest media. And this

1:02:38

was before the Nobel,

1:02:40

Mark Thompson was former

1:02:42

president of the New York Times, you

1:02:44

know, we are trying we

1:02:46

have raised significant amounts of

1:02:48

money from from

1:02:50

governments that are democratic,

1:02:52

ODA, overseas development assistance

1:02:54

funds to try to help journalist

1:02:57

news organizations stay independent at this

1:02:59

extremely critical moment. You know, you won

1:03:01

the

1:03:01

Nobel Prize, you know, and you came out in this

1:03:03

book. Also, you've done a lot of stuff. You've gotten a

1:03:06

lot of attention. where are you

1:03:08

now? What what risk are you under?

1:03:10

Has that helped to protect you?

1:03:12

Could you still go to prison? And how do

1:03:14

you look at your life now because

1:03:16

this has sort of upended your

1:03:18

entire personal life too. Yes.

1:03:20

All of the above. I mean,

1:03:22

it's it's

1:03:22

feels like quick sand, you know, in every step you take, you just

1:03:24

test the ground and you keep moving

1:03:26

forward. I I can't plan

1:03:30

my life. my parents are are aging,

1:03:32

and I'm trying to figure out

1:03:34

that. Yes. You know? And then in

1:03:36

terms of

1:03:38

I think in terms of of myself, in terms I

1:03:41

I've known who I am, and

1:03:43

I think part of

1:03:45

the reason I I just

1:03:47

have greater clarity. Right? because

1:03:50

this is the battle that matters

1:03:52

if we don't have facts, and I

1:03:54

distill it that clearly. If we don't

1:03:56

have facts, we have no shared

1:03:58

reality. You cannot come

1:03:59

together as society

1:04:02

and democracy Well, that's

1:04:04

just one of the things that dies, but a lot

1:04:06

of things die.

1:04:07

We elevate, we allow.

1:04:09

The last trap chapter is called why fascism is

1:04:12

winning. And then the kind of micro

1:04:14

lesson I put underneath it is

1:04:15

as what we need to do right now,

1:04:18

which is in the

1:04:20

interim. Right? because in the long term, it's

1:04:22

going to be education, which is going to

1:04:24

take too long. It's generational. In

1:04:26

the medium It's gonna be legislation and this should have already been put in

1:04:28

place so that EU will kick in in

1:04:30

twenty twenty three. But in the

1:04:32

short term,

1:04:32

the short term We

1:04:34

are in as much like hand to hand combat

1:04:36

as Russia and Ukraine, and

1:04:38

yet Americans don't feel that, Filipinos

1:04:41

don't feel that. every

1:04:44

person on social media is

1:04:46

being insidiously

1:04:46

manipulated and were affected

1:04:49

at three different levels. So I I

1:04:51

feel like this moment, that's the reason I wrote the book. You

1:04:53

know? It was like, yeah. And I woke

1:04:55

up every day at five AM for a year and a

1:04:57

half to do it.

1:05:00

Good for you. I'm really dead. Are you could you still go to jail

1:05:02

under blah blah blah? Of

1:05:04

course. Yes. I try not to

1:05:06

think about it. But yes, Scott. You know,

1:05:10

look, I I laugh about it because there's no other

1:05:12

way to handle it. I'm not gonna change

1:05:14

because obviously, like, the end

1:05:16

goal is to hang this amicably

1:05:18

sword over

1:05:20

us to prevent us from doing our jobs. But look, we found a

1:05:22

sustainable business model. Their --

1:05:24

Yeah. -- crisis is opportunity. So I'm

1:05:28

hoping Well,

1:05:29

Maria, Maria, you are the most optimistic person I've

1:05:31

ever met. Even with the prison sentence

1:05:33

and everything else hanging

1:05:36

above your I have to say. Sure.

1:05:38

Alright. You know, talk about such serious sort of heavy,

1:05:40

even upsetting things. And, like, you got

1:05:44

on this call and you are waving at us. You just have nicest

1:05:46

vibe, but you're a lesson in

1:05:48

in being a beacon

1:05:50

of light and darkness So

1:05:53

I I don't know what you're on, but

1:05:55

please share. Awesome. I don't

1:05:58

Coffee. Coffee.

1:05:58

Let me just say

1:05:59

that the book party someone said, even without all that she faces, she's

1:06:02

the happiest person we've ever met. And

1:06:04

you're really a hero to me. And many,

1:06:06

many of you.

1:06:06

factious. Thank you. It's really appreciated.

1:06:09

So the book is

1:06:11

how to stand up to a dictator, the fight for our

1:06:14

future, Nobel Prize winner,

1:06:16

Hero Coffee

1:06:18

Drinker, You can

1:06:20

buy the book now. You can also read

1:06:22

please read Rappler dot com. Maria,

1:06:25

thank you for introducing to

1:06:27

yourself almost ten years ago. You've you came to be

1:06:29

for advice, but I you certainly lead the way

1:06:32

now. Thank you very much. Thanks for your important

1:06:33

work, Maria.

1:06:35

Thank you to both

1:06:35

of you. For your remarks, thank

1:06:38

you. Scott, isn't she the best?

1:06:40

Yeah. It's just you meet people like that

1:06:42

and you're thankful. Right? You're

1:06:44

thankful. Stop belly the fuck aching. Sound bell? A hundred percent.

1:06:46

You know what I mean? Like, honestly. I mean, what

1:06:48

could happen to her? She's

1:06:50

under siege.

1:06:52

constantly. I could get off that plane of Manila and be arrested. And

1:06:54

killed. Ressa I almost was, like,

1:06:56

please come back. I will you

1:06:58

can live at my house

1:07:00

because I was worried

1:07:01

about her getting killed by these. These people were

1:07:03

murders, were stone cold murders that were running

1:07:05

the country.

1:07:06

And even now she they they've

1:07:08

gotten so upset said at her, they've created

1:07:10

a persona around her that's so fake that

1:07:12

it's crazy. When I when I ever I write about

1:07:14

her, I get

1:07:15

inundated with crazy

1:07:18

crazy stuff from

1:07:18

the Philippines saying I'm def it's

1:07:21

crazy.

1:07:21

Anyway, one more quick break and we'll

1:07:23

be back for wins and

1:07:26

fails. You

1:07:26

know,

1:07:29

when you're

1:07:30

staying in an Airbnb, chances are

1:07:34

you've wondered, Could I please be an

1:07:36

Airbnb? And if it could, what could it earn? You might be surprised

1:07:38

to hear about Tammy in North Carolina, who

1:07:40

had a one bedroom guest house for a

1:07:44

family made only a few weekends a year. She

1:07:46

realized she could air BNB Now, the

1:07:48

extra income helps keep the doors of her food

1:07:50

and wine business is open.

1:07:52

So, yeah, You might not realize

1:07:54

it, but you might have an Airbnb

1:07:56

too. Find out what your place could be earning at

1:07:58

airbnb dot com

1:08:00

slash host. This episode is

1:08:01

brought to you by The Lost De Big.

1:08:03

Today's polarized media landscape seems to give

1:08:05

people a false choice. stay

1:08:08

in a partisan bubble that never challenges you to think

1:08:10

or embrace the online outrage cycle,

1:08:12

but you can choose something better, and

1:08:15

you can join the lost debate. It's a

1:08:17

podcast for anyone who wants to escape their echo chamber and engage with ideas from

1:08:20

across the spectrum with the kind of

1:08:22

good faith discussions we need more of as

1:08:24

a Society.

1:08:26

Loss debate is hosted by Ravi Gupta,

1:08:28

a former Obama staffer and school

1:08:30

principal and superintendent who spent years

1:08:32

on the front lines of America's political

1:08:35

battles where to preserve our democracy. And Ricky Schlot, the Gen Z

1:08:37

New York Post columnist, libertarian, fighting to

1:08:39

protect free speech for

1:08:41

her generation and

1:08:44

beyond together They cover all the latest news

1:08:46

arguments ideas and trends with balance and nuance. They have constructive discussions that

1:08:48

sound less like shouting cable

1:08:50

segments and more like conversations between

1:08:53

real people. So come join the conversation. New episodes of lost debate drop twice

1:08:55

a week. Every Tuesday and Thursday find lost debate

1:08:57

on Amazon's Spotify, Apple, YouTube,

1:09:00

or wear ever

1:09:03

you get your

1:09:04

shows.

1:09:08

Okay, Scott.

1:09:10

Let's hear some wins and fails. I'm gonna go first

1:09:11

you mind. My fail is Britney Greiner who

1:09:14

has been relocated to penal

1:09:18

colony in Moldovia about two hundred and ten miles east of Moscow. But what do they do?

1:09:20

You're advising by them,

1:09:23

what

1:09:23

do you do? what

1:09:25

do

1:09:25

you do? I know. I don't know what

1:09:27

to do, but I feel like the attention needs to be on her

1:09:30

more heavily. I agree they've been trying to trade her for some arms

1:09:32

Ressa. There's another guy

1:09:34

there. Paul Wheeler is another

1:09:36

president. Yeah. CIA analyst. Yeah. There's all there's

1:09:38

several people there that that need to come

1:09:40

out, but getting sucked up into this Ukraine thing. I

1:09:42

just there was a big story in Los Angeles times about her

1:09:45

her life's gonna

1:09:47

be like, it's twenty four

1:09:49

hour twenty four hour working. She's obviously stands out. She's gay.

1:09:51

But she's facing some

1:09:54

really tough winter there. where

1:09:58

she is. And I

1:09:59

just think that's gonna fail. I don't know

1:10:02

what they do, but

1:10:02

getting her home should be a priority. III

1:10:05

know these prisoner things don't matter, but they

1:10:07

matter in a long way. But I do think secretary Blanken

1:10:09

was on Face a

1:10:12

Nation. I I

1:10:14

think they are I think they really are. She is top of mind.

1:10:16

Yeah. But they wanna make sure they don't

1:10:18

do something that results in more people

1:10:22

being taken. Yep. Yeah.

1:10:23

Correct. And then the wind I'll I'll talk to him. I hope she I

1:10:25

I pray for

1:10:25

her honestly. I don't really play very much. But and

1:10:28

my wind,

1:10:28

of course, is my Chevy

1:10:30

Bolt, which I Oh. so beautiful. What

1:10:32

do you

1:10:33

mean your name? baby belts. Your name is, like, a little jewel.

1:10:35

It's such a good car. It drives

1:10:36

it's

1:10:38

beautiful. Everything is beautiful. every piece is

1:10:41

I I don't

1:10:41

have one completely. have almost no credibility here. No. I I'm telling you, go read

1:10:43

the reviews,

1:10:44

my

1:10:46

friend. It's so beautiful. I'm happy. little bone I'm so happy. killer.

1:10:49

My bone or killer is That was

1:10:51

the rage on Twitter. I

1:10:56

know. Gosh. I'm like, wait. I'm the profane

1:10:58

one. Stay on your lane. Stay on your lane. That's what you named it. I

1:11:02

just named it. wonder what they're doing right now at Chevy they see that name

1:11:05

coming in. Yeah. Something tells me Chevy is

1:11:07

not gonna be advertised. Who knows?

1:11:11

Maybe.

1:11:11

Karen and her Bona killer. She loves it. Anyway, I

1:11:13

love it. So good. Well

1:11:16

done. GM, I have to

1:11:18

say it's a really good car. There's really

1:11:20

interesting. Ford and GM are really owning

1:11:22

the lesser expensive cars in EVs and obviously

1:11:26

test dominates the luxury area,

1:11:27

but the the others Rivian and Lucid

1:11:29

are coming up as well

1:11:31

as Mercedes and stuff like

1:11:33

that. But but these inexpensive

1:11:36

VVs are great. I'm really pleased that there's

1:11:38

that such a good one is available. Anyway,

1:11:40

go ahead, Scott, win and fail. My

1:11:42

win is that I'm surprisingly optimistic. I

1:11:44

think there's been some good things sort

1:11:46

of power to the peoples. My win,

1:11:48

senior Iranian officials said the country should

1:11:51

abolish its morality police. After months of street

1:11:53

protests, and Bremer would argue that it was

1:11:55

mostly symbolic, but still

1:11:57

symbolism matters. In China, after

1:11:59

nationwide protests, Chinese officials

1:12:01

have started to ease

1:12:04

COVID restrictions, more than twenty

1:12:06

cities eliminated the requirement for negative COVID

1:12:08

tests on public transport. And I'm not saying whether

1:12:10

that's a good or a bad idea, but

1:12:13

you are seeing the power of protest

1:12:15

And I think that's a I think that's a reason

1:12:17

for optimism. My fail is I

1:12:19

just can't get

1:12:22

over. how the cryptotalaban in the

1:12:25

VC community have attempted to

1:12:27

pull this jujitsu

1:12:29

move and claim that

1:12:31

Oh, the media and journalists -- Yeah. --

1:12:34

and politicians were protecting Sam Bankman

1:12:36

Freed. and

1:12:39

that had they not been actively

1:12:42

protected