0:00

What is up ? Plant people it's time once

0:02

more for the Plantthropology podcast , the show

0:05

where we dive into the lives and careers of some

0:07

very cool plant people to figure

0:09

out why they do what they do and what keeps them

0:11

coming back for more . I'm Vikram Baliga

0:13

, your host and your humble guide in this journey through the sciences

0:15

and , as always , my friends , I am so excited

0:17

to be with you today and I'm especially excited for

0:20

this episode because it's one that we recorded a couple

0:22

of ago and I've been not sitting

0:24

on . That's not right , but I've had a whole bunch of other

0:27

stuff going on , a bunch of different episodes coming out

0:29

, but I so much enjoyed this

0:31

one and it's kind of fun getting to go back after

0:33

a couple of months as I'm editing and hear

0:35

the conversation again , because my guest

0:37

for today , dr Sarah Dugnan , is

0:40

just the coolest , just

0:42

the coolest . So Sarah is

0:44

the host of the AnthroDish podcast

0:46

and all the other things , the writing that

0:48

goes with it , and she has a sub stack

0:50

and all kinds of other things . But she has a background

0:53

in everything from medical anthropology

0:55

to archaeology , to

0:58

water and food and

1:00

everything else , everything else . She knows so

1:02

much and has done so

1:04

much in the food and food

1:07

anthropology space and food

1:09

as a cultural thing

1:12

and food as a health thing and all the

1:14

things that really itch that part of

1:16

my brain that wants to know about how

1:18

we interact with food and how we interact with

1:20

plants and the world around us . And it

1:22

was just such a fun conversation , sarah

1:25

is delightful and just

1:27

a wealth of knowledge and so

1:30

smart and so fun and I think

1:32

you're really going to enjoy this episode . I know that

1:34

I enjoyed it when I got to talk to

1:36

her and I enjoyed it again

1:38

, all over again as I edited

1:40

it and it's just great . So

1:42

if you're interested in

1:44

how we culturally approach

1:46

food and how food

1:49

interacts with our day-to-day lives and

1:51

our politics and our

1:53

well-being and everything in

1:55

between , this is the episode for you . So

1:58

, without any other delay

2:00

, my dearest friends , here

2:02

is episode 109 of the Planthropology

2:05

podcast , food is knowledge

2:07

, eating equitably and digital literacy

2:09

with Dr Sarah Dugnan of the

2:11

AnthroDish podcast . Well

2:32

, sarah , I am so excited to get to talk to you

2:34

today . We've been kind of following

2:36

each other and interacting on social

2:38

media for a while and , like we were kind of

2:40

chatting before the interview , it's exciting

2:43

just to get to have this FaceTime a little bit

2:45

.

2:45

Yeah , thank you , I'm so excited to be here .

2:47

Good , how's your day going so far ?

2:49

It's going all right . I'm up

2:51

in Ontario so it's very gray . It's kind of that wintry

2:53

kind of fall-spring-winter

2:56

mood , so yeah

2:58

.

3:00

I understand that for sure . Now I

3:02

say I understand that Now I'm in Texas and

3:06

so it was that way over the weekend

3:08

cold , dreary , rainy , and

3:10

then today I think it's supposed to be 70

3:13

Fahrenheit , which is I can't do

3:15

the math quick enough in my head , but it's warm

3:17

and sunny Very nice , well

3:21

. Again , thanks for agreeing to be on . I'm excited to get

3:24

to chat about what you do in your podcast

3:26

and about food and everything else , but why

3:28

don't you introduce yourself a little bit more , tell us where

3:30

you're from , what you do and how you

3:33

got there ?

3:34

Sure , so my

3:36

name is Sarah Duggan . I am currently living

3:38

in Guelph , ontario . I'm from Peterborough

3:41

or Nagojuan , ontario . I'm from Peterborough or

3:43

Nagojouan , ontario , and I am a food podcaster

3:46

, but I'm also a medical anthropologist

3:48

, which I feel like

3:50

when people hear medical anthro they don't necessarily

3:52

think about food , but

3:59

to me it's all related . I think growing up

4:01

in particularly in Ontario

4:03

, in more small town communities , just

4:06

being exposed to the natural world a lot more

4:08

, allowed for a really

4:10

good connection between myself and

4:13

you know , being outside , being

4:15

aware of , like , how many beautiful freshwater

4:18

lakes we have and

4:20

all the natural world around that , so

4:22

it just kind of was a part of me from

4:25

a very early age . And

4:27

I'd also like to credit you know I went to a pretty

4:29

hippie university for my undergrad , so

4:33

that definitely . So I went to Trent University

4:36

and it's very environmentally

4:38

focused . It's very much looking

4:40

at how can we create , you know , local

4:42

, locally and sustainably

4:45

sourced food pathways for people

4:47

, even university students . So I

4:49

think you know it was . It was always there , it was

4:51

always kind of an underlying message . And then , as

4:53

I took the jump into grad school

4:56

and worked within , I

4:58

went to University of Manitoba for my master's

5:00

and then McMaster University for

5:02

my PhD . I'd started

5:04

out in archaeology , so it was kind of a gradual

5:07

transition , which I don't

5:09

often talk about , but yeah

5:12

. So somehow I managed to move from archaeology

5:14

into more community-based health within

5:16

my PhD work .

5:18

That's really fascinating and

5:22

at least in my mind and you say that maybe it

5:24

doesn't track or that you don't talk

5:26

about it much , but it makes some sense to me because I think

5:28

food and the way that we

5:30

eat and the way that we grow things is this than I do . But uh

5:32

, and and and so much

5:45

of it was like what did they grow , how did they cook

5:47

it , what did they eat , what's ? How

5:49

did their society revolve around that ? And that it makes sense

5:51

that the more you learn about old cultures , that's

5:55

such a pivotal part Like it . For

5:57

me at least , it tracks . I think that's such a cool progression

5:59

too .

6:00

Oh , thanks , yeah , it , it definitely tracks for me

6:02

too and that it's , you know , I think

6:04

, working . I'd worked a lot on like skeletal populations

6:07

and excavations relating to that Um

6:10

, and in my master's I was looking at like Danish

6:12

populations moving through um , the

6:14

little ice age and the global warming period , and

6:16

so I was looking at , you know , how did their diets change , how

6:19

did they move during climate change and you

6:21

know , bubonic plague and things like that , and

6:23

it was really understanding like , oh , food has a huge

6:25

role in terms of the health outcomes . You can

6:27

see that in the skeletal evidence . And

6:30

then it prompted a much , I

6:32

don't know , a pretty natural transition for me of , well

6:35

, how do we think about the world today in terms of how we

6:37

eat , how is our health informed

6:40

both by our food and our water and our ability

6:42

to source that , or the political

6:44

and social structures that limit that

6:46

as well ?

6:48

Yeah , it's fascinating and I'm

6:52

trying to think how I want to phrase my

6:54

question . There

6:57

is so much of you know you talked

6:59

about the political structures that influence food and

7:01

influence water especially . You

7:03

know you have a great paper you wrote I

7:05

guess I guess this was on your PhD research

7:08

right , looking at water insecurity

7:10

among First Nations and different

7:14

peoples . How did like

7:16

? Again , I've

7:18

worked in water for a lot of my career and

7:20

I've looked at the way that people

7:22

relate to water and how they see

7:25

water as a resource and all of that . Could you talk

7:27

a little bit more about some of the research you

7:29

did and how you got into that , specifically

7:31

Because I think that's a sort of a fascinating

7:34

facet of food and

7:36

society as well .

7:38

Yeah , definitely . I mean , I agree and I'm

7:40

always happy to nerd out on water stuff . I

7:44

think an important piece that I want to note is

7:46

when I was growing up , I was in a school

7:48

that had a lot of First Nations educators

7:50

and I think

7:53

it would have been about grade four , grade five . You

7:56

start learning about Canadian history

7:58

and you start learning about Indigenous

8:00

and settler relationships and it's very

8:03

much within this bound textbook of

8:05

particular expectations . And

8:07

during that time there was a water

8:10

crisis in Kosheshuan First Nation , which

8:12

is up in Northern Ontario . So

8:15

a lot of the teachers that I had at that point started

8:17

pulling resources together and ended up

8:20

helping with the evacuation of Kosheshuan students

8:22

and youth to Peterborough . So

8:25

at the time , I'm like reading about these relationships

8:27

that you know for settlers had with indigenous

8:30

people and it's not lining up with how you

8:32

know the reality was in . I can't remember

8:35

what year I was in grade

8:37

four , but knowing that all these people

8:39

didn't have access to water , um

8:41

, and we were living in Ontario and we kept

8:43

being told this is , you know , this is a

8:47

country of privileges and affordances

8:50

and we all have this ability to access clean

8:52

water . It just you know , even at that young

8:55

age it very much didn't line up . So that

8:57

really shaped how I thought about

8:59

relationships between

9:01

settlers and Indigenous peoples across

9:04

Canada from a young age . So I feel

9:06

lucky in that sense to have

9:08

had that awareness . And then , in terms of the research

9:10

itself , quite

9:12

frankly , there was an Indigenous

9:15

scholar in our department who had started

9:17

this huge project and she

9:19

and her team reached out to me and I

9:21

was really interested in looking at health , reached

9:26

out to me and I was really interested in looking at health but , um , I'd been going

9:28

down a different Avenue in my early PhD and when she reached out , um , dr Don Don Martin Hill

9:31

, uh , it just it felt like a no

9:33

brainer , like yeah , of course I can use my skills to

9:35

help out with this project . Um

9:37

, and really kind of situate

9:40

it was interesting because it was very interdisciplinary

9:42

. So there were lots of engineers and biologists , um

9:45

, and I don't know how frequently you've

9:47

worked with them , but they can be a

9:49

little less sensitive

9:51

to kind of human behaviors .

9:54

Yeah , no , I absolutely yes .

9:57

Yeah . So it was a lot

9:59

of translating between , okay , um , you

10:01

know , getting acquainted with um

10:04

six nations first nation and and the people there

10:06

, and how can I work with them

10:08

and kind of translate what

10:10

they're experiencing to engineers and biologists

10:12

and then vice versa , how can I bring the

10:14

engineer biologist research in a way that you

10:17

know makes sense and is useful

10:19

for communities ? So that's kind of the long winded

10:21

story of that . No , it's interesting . That's kind of the long-winded story of that .

10:23

No , it's interesting and again , I like the

10:25

story . You tell a little bit about how

10:29

we chase opportunities

10:31

where they come up and we chase them where they are

10:34

meaningful and edifying and

10:36

all of those things . But sometimes it's like here's a

10:38

project , do you want to work on it ? And it's like

10:40

, okay , sure , I

10:43

did my master's degree in olive

10:45

production . I studied water

10:47

use in olives in South Texas , near

10:49

the Mexican border , and

10:52

I had going in zero

10:54

interest in olives Like

10:56

at all . My background

10:58

is actually in landscape

11:01

design and water conservation and things like

11:03

that . When I applied to my master's

11:05

program I was like , yeah , I'm really interested

11:07

in landscape . And they were like , well , we have funding for a project

11:10

in olives and I was like , great , let's

11:12

learn about olives . But

11:16

some of those opportunities so much drive the way

11:18

that our career goes and our academic life

11:20

goes that it's fun to

11:23

have the opportunity sometimes to chase something

11:25

a little bit different .

11:27

Yeah , I agree , and I find sometimes too

11:29

, with particularly thinking through anthropological

11:31

work , I feel

11:33

a little uncomfortable in certain circumstances

11:35

in terms of being that kind of helicopter

11:38

researcher , of just going into a community and being

11:41

like we know what's best for you . So

11:44

having the opportunity to work with someone who's from

11:46

the community , who offered that

11:48

spot up , it just felt like a much more natural fit than

11:50

trying to like squish myself

11:52

into something that just didn't fit either .

11:55

That's really , yeah , that's really interesting . Um

11:58

, and so you know I I

12:00

want to talk more about your podcast

12:02

and some of your outreach stuff you do , maybe

12:05

towards the end of this interview or a little bit later in this

12:07

interview , but I'm curious now

12:09

, reading through some

12:11

of your articles you write on Substack

12:13

and just some of the other work you do

12:15

, it seems like you

12:18

have found a really cool connection

12:21

point between all of the different things anthropology

12:24

and environment , and food and

12:26

culture and all of this and for

12:29

me it's such a cool like collaboration

12:32

of all of these different fields . Um

12:34

, and we've been kind of chatting about it a little bit , but can

12:37

you give me your thoughts on and

12:39

I know this is not a small question , so I'm going to try

12:41

to keep it as maybe

12:44

as digestible

12:47

, consumable , whatever is possible . But how

12:50

did you come to this point where you've studied

12:52

water , you've studied anthropology

12:55

. Obviously you're interested in the environment and the

12:57

climate . How did you find sort

12:59

of your niche ? Because I think that sometimes

13:02

, as people are trying

13:04

to decide what to do with their lives , you know and you

13:07

know what they want to be when they grow up , which I'll

13:09

let you know if I ever figured that out , I still

13:11

don't know Really

13:14

, like finding where they maybe

13:16

belong professionally and

13:18

academically is really hard and

13:21

just you know , hearing you talk on your podcast and

13:23

reading your work , it feels like you've really found like

13:25

that sweet spot for you . Like how did you get

13:27

there ? Because I think that's a great

13:30

.

13:30

Yeah , again , easy , small questions , um

13:32

, but I think that's a good thing for people to hear

13:34

to

13:46

what you're saying , um , but I find it's one of those things where I've always had , um , I've always

13:48

had an interest in maintaining a kind of holistic approach to things . Um

13:50

, you know , how can we , how can we , look at this in different

13:53

angles ? And you know , I don't , I know I

13:55

just have one perspective and and that

13:57

can come into , you know , a bigger conversation

14:00

with different perspectives to make

14:02

, you know , make more

14:04

sustainable solutions or more nuanced solutions

14:07

. Um , but I think , in terms

14:09

of where I came to with it , it

14:11

was really a reflection of , like life crashing into

14:13

work . Um , so

14:16

, um , you know , I was , I was

14:18

going through my PhD , I was being a teaching assistant

14:20

, but I was also , um , single parenting

14:23

and I was working at a restaurant and it

14:26

just was kind of an unavoidable nexus

14:29

of sitting through these classrooms and sitting

14:31

through , you

14:33

know , listening through undergraduate lectures that I had

14:35

heard time and time again and

14:38

not really feeling like voices were being represented

14:41

in a way that was comprehensive

14:46

, like it just felt like it was again just one particular

14:48

narrator shaping these perspectives

14:50

on food , and then I

14:52

was looking at the restaurant industry in Toronto and this

14:55

would be in the 2010s and thinking about all the different

14:57

people that I knew there doing really creative

14:59

, interesting work and

15:02

struggling , and I think ultimately

15:04

, you know it just felt like there was such

15:07

a huge disconnect and I was interested in looking at

15:09

how can we kind of bridge those gaps a

15:11

little bit more . Um , but

15:14

in terms of , yeah , how it's kind of come into

15:16

my food writing in place , I think it just comes from more

15:18

conversations with people Um , it

15:20

has allowed me to kind of stop and reflect a bit

15:22

more on how I see food

15:24

and , again

15:27

, I think being

15:29

in a position of serving in Toronto , when you are

15:31

like a broke grad student and you're serving

15:33

these like huge plates of food that you

15:36

can't actually afford it , just it

15:38

completely shapes your perspective and

15:40

for me , I always end up just asking more questions

15:42

and that kind of guides the writing

15:44

and the social media work that I did

15:46

as well .

15:48

That's really really fascinating . Some of

15:50

the work that I have done professionally

15:52

and maybe I'm getting into academically I've

15:55

spent a lot of time as , like , a community educator

15:57

and things like that , and I've worked in that quite

15:59

a bit , but a lot of that was in food

16:01

and food supply and we've done like community

16:04

gardens and work in those kinds

16:06

of things . You wrote an article

16:08

, I think , back in November on your

16:10

Substack , talking about affordable and

16:12

accessible food , and that's

16:14

something that's really close to my heart

16:16

and I know that

16:18

culturally and politically

16:21

there are quite

16:23

a few between like where I am and where

16:25

you are . But , but

16:27

, reading some of your work , it seems like , though , some

16:30

of these core problems about access to food

16:32

and food security are

16:36

not so different . Maybe these are more universal

16:39

problems , just based on the way that our societies are built

16:41

. Can you talk about that article and what

16:43

like um kind

16:46

of drove you to talking about , like food

16:48

access and all of those things ?

16:51

Yeah , that's a great question . I think , um

16:54

, in terms of thinking

16:56

about food access as a writing point , um

16:58

, for me , it it tends to be a

17:00

constant frustration , especially , you know

17:02

, post 2020 onward . Um

17:05

, I've found the food system

17:07

, like looking at our food system in real time has been

17:09

a really fascinating exploration

17:11

into , you know , what

17:13

led us to this point . Why are we at this point where

17:16

, um , you know , within

17:18

the context of of Canadian food systems

17:20

, um and I'm sure you could speak to

17:22

it um , in America and in Texas

17:24

, but the food prices here are just

17:26

skyrocketing to a point where people

17:28

can't afford them . Food bank use

17:31

is increasing and

17:34

setting like record-breaking highs and

17:36

we don't in Canada have any sort

17:38

of like food support network

17:40

or social support network for it . We

17:43

don't have school lunch programs , we don't have

17:45

like nationally mandated food

17:47

programs and obviously there's there's issues

17:50

and limitations within those two , but there's

17:53

no like social support or safety

17:55

net for those sorts of things

17:57

. And I think , just

18:01

seeing it again play it in real time , seeing , you know

18:03

, the grocery shop budgets

18:06

having to increase week by week , and

18:08

there's been some really interesting

18:10

kind

18:13

of elements with different Canadian

18:15

CEOs of different grocery stores getting

18:20

involved in , like food pricing

18:23

scandals and things like that . So it

18:25

felt like a really good place to explore

18:28

how all of our social

18:30

, political and cultural structures

18:33

, particularly in Canada right now , are

18:35

at this interesting juncture

18:38

of being challenged and kind of hitting that point

18:40

where they're fracturing , based

18:42

on , you know , all of these different

18:44

things happening . But

18:46

I think to ultimately like I

18:48

like to look back at the idea of food access

18:51

in the States and in Canada as

18:53

being intentional . I think a lot of the

18:56

again

18:59

, a lot of the sort of legislature and

19:01

policy around food is not necessarily

19:04

reflective of , like the realities

19:06

that people face . And so

19:09

when we see it starting to crumble and we see it

19:11

not being sustainable for people to be able to access

19:13

food , um , then

19:15

you start to look at different policies and and bills

19:18

and like the history of that and how

19:20

that's kind of shaped , how we come to

19:22

think about access to Josh

19:32

, yeah , and that is .

19:33

I mean , it's such a big issue and it is something certainly that we face here . And you

19:35

know , maybe we have some systems in place . You'd mentioned school

19:37

lunches and things like that . So we do have

19:39

some kind of social safety net in terms of food supply

19:41

, but it's inadequate

19:43

overall

19:46

. Right , like yes , it's , it

19:49

helps , but it's almost like I don't

19:51

know , trying to drink

19:53

soup with a fork . You know you get

19:55

a little bit but you don't get it all . And

19:58

that's something we certainly saw , you

20:01

know , through shutdowns in 2020

20:03

. And through , you know , we had in California

20:06

and parts of Texas where labor

20:09

became such a huge issue

20:11

in terms of our food system because

20:13

most of it's migrant labor and seasonal

20:17

labor and those people couldn't

20:19

come into the country , they couldn't

20:21

get into the fields and there were hundreds

20:24

of thousands of tons of food produce that

20:26

rotted in the field because no one could harvest it . And

20:29

when that sort

20:31

of starts hitting , I think we realize the fragility

20:33

of our food system sometimes and how

20:36

much we need that , that safety net

20:38

and and those regional

20:40

and sort of more localized food systems and

20:42

stuff like that . So it is , it is such a big

20:45

thing , but I think the more people who talk about

20:47

it the better , especially from an informed

20:50

and sort of like knowledgeable standpoint .

20:53

Yeah , I agree and I think , like again

20:55

, when , when I think about the idea of the food system kind

20:57

of being intentionally structured this way , I

20:59

think a lot about , like , industrial agriculture . Um , not

21:02

that I want to like sick all the industrial agricultural

21:05

people on us for having this conversation

21:07

, but , um , you know , even thinking

21:09

about the Canadian food guide itself

21:11

is like a political text

21:13

where it's been long informed by

21:16

lobbyists . So , um , milk

21:18

and dairy lobbyists , uh , meat lobbyists

21:20

and different , um , different like big

21:22

egg companies have spent a lot of money

21:24

lobbying so that , particularly

21:27

during the 1950s

21:30

to 1990s , you

21:32

would see more dairy

21:34

bread , juice , meats being

21:36

recommended , because

21:38

there was money behind that . And it

21:41

was only in the 2020 restructure

21:44

for the food guide where they actually had , like nutritional

21:46

scientists come in and say , hey

21:48

, this isn't exactly the

21:50

most like nourishing plate , so maybe let's

21:52

bring some science to it and see

21:54

what happens with that .

21:56

Well , that's kind of a big deal , right ? Yeah , I

21:59

think having the scientific

22:01

backing you know , and I think about the old food

22:04

pyramid that we , or at least you

22:06

know I don't know if it's the same food pyramid , but similar

22:09

Rainbow .

22:09

Yeah , okay .

22:11

Same idea of that

22:14

we grew up with oh , this is what we should eat . And then

22:16

you really dive into it . It's like , well , you

22:19

know . So there are certainly some issues there

22:21

. But what has been encouraging for me

22:23

and I'd be curious to hear what you have seen

22:25

sort of in your area

22:27

is how many people are

22:29

going back to and

22:32

trying to start like grassroots , community-led

22:34

operations to plug

22:37

some of these gaps in the system . Like we

22:39

have community gardens , we

22:41

have our local food bank actually

22:43

has a farm

22:45

, we have a food bank farm and

22:47

they have an apple orchard and they have greenhouses

22:51

and high tunnels I think it's about seven acres of land

22:53

. And then they have a CSA program and they donate to the

22:55

food bank or run

22:58

some of it through the food bank . It was really cool community-led

23:02

efforts that are trying to make sure

23:04

people have food to eat . Are you seeing

23:06

that where you are ? Are there those types

23:08

of efforts going into place ?

23:11

There definitely are . There's been some

23:13

really interesting conversations again , really

23:15

starting in 2020 onwards . There's

23:18

a lot of really great not-for-profits

23:20

here that are community-driven , so

23:23

I'm forgetting the name of it now

23:25

Toronto Food . I'll

23:28

have to send it to you ? No , that's fine , but

23:31

there are a few different food initiatives in Toronto . There's

23:34

Sundance Harvest . There's also

23:36

CSA Farms across

23:38

southern Ontario that I know a little

23:40

bit better than across Canada . But

23:43

then we also have a lot of university researchers teaming

23:45

up with farmers

23:47

and agricultural specialists . Agricultural

23:52

specialists Dr Tamara Soma is someone who's doing that out in BC Just fantastic job really looking at

23:54

like food landscapes and food planning to

23:57

create systems that are a bit less wasteful . There's

24:00

also people who are looking at , you

24:02

know , reusing imperfect process

24:04

or produce . So taking

24:07

that from grocery stores who have , you

24:09

know , the ones that have like blemishes on them or they're

24:11

starting to look a little funky , I'd

24:13

argue . This day and age

24:16

we have a lot of rotting produce . So I'm not

24:18

sure if those initiatives are as

24:20

fast or as able these days , but

24:22

there certainly are a lot of community initiatives

24:24

, I

24:28

think there's also a lot of barriers to

24:30

accessing those . So it's like an interesting connection , right

24:32

Like there's . I think Sundance Harvest is one of those places where they're

24:34

offering youth the opportunity to learn how to farm

24:36

and to um to

24:38

create community through

24:40

food in an accessible way . Um

24:43

, and , I know , through different First Nations

24:45

reserves there's , there's those movements as well , but

24:47

, um , I think you

24:50

know , if you live in more urban spaces , that's still quite a challenge

24:52

, especially for youth who might

24:54

not necessarily know where to start or where to connect

24:56

. That would be the biggest

24:58

shift , like thinking Toronto specifically .

25:01

Sure , no , that's , and that's really interesting . And I

25:03

just ask because I , you know

25:05

, I think we get so siloed sometimes

25:07

in our areas and it's hard

25:09

to see sort of the big global picture

25:11

of , you know , I know , us

25:13

and Canada . We're still over here in our little

25:16

you know , but but

25:18

but still like , I think , hearing more perspectives

25:20

on how we

25:22

as people try to take care of people

25:25

. You know there's

25:27

there's large programs

25:29

and there's there's government programs or not

25:31

, and then there's , you know , social programs or not . But

25:33

I think what has encouraged me and

25:36

has given me so much hope through all this is those grassroots

25:38

community efforts . I think that is just such a cool

25:41

thing to hear about and learn about how it works

25:43

different places . So

25:47

that's actually a good segue

25:50

, I think . And we'll take a quick break . But when we

25:52

come back I want to talk about your podcast

25:54

and how you got into that , because you

25:57

know , as I started listening

25:59

to it I was like this is like this

26:01

hits all the buttons for me , like that scratches

26:03

that itch in my brain of the anthropology

26:05

side and the food side and everything else . So

26:08

we'll take a quick break . When

26:13

we come back we'll talk about AnthroDish and the communication

26:15

work that you do . Well , hey there , welcome to the mid-roll

26:17

. How's it going so far ? Are you enjoying the episode ? Do

26:20

you love Sarah as much as I did ? Yeah , wonderful . Tell

26:22

your house plants . I said hi , by the way . I

26:24

know they miss me when we're not together

26:27

. Thanks so much to the Texas Tech Department of Plant

26:29

and Soil Science for letting me do the show and for

26:31

supporting it and for not firing me . For doing

26:33

that , I really appreciate it . But most

26:35

of all , thanks to you , the listener . I

26:37

do this for you and I love to hear from

26:40

you . So if you have feedback , if you have comments

26:42

, you can leave those for me in a lot of different

26:44

ways . First , hit me up on social media . I

26:46

am Plantthropology , all the places . I

26:52

am the plant prof , all the places . I'm working on getting more of these up on YouTube . I know

26:54

, I know I've been talking about it for months and it's hard . Okay

26:56

, okay , it's hard , but if you want to follow

26:59

along on any of your favorite podcast players

27:01

, do that . If you want to follow on YouTube , you can

27:03

do that as well . You can also

27:05

email me at planthropologypod at gmailcom

27:08

If you have any feedback , ideas for future

27:10

guests or anything in between

27:12

. Also , if you are the review leaving

27:14

type , you could leave me a review . I

27:16

don't know when you're listening to this episode , but my birthday

27:18

is in about a month and

27:20

what I've really been wanting and if you

27:22

could hook me up with this is a brand new five-star

27:24

review . I wear a size

27:27

five star , like I said , so

27:29

if you want to leave me one of those , I would appreciate

27:31

it forever . You can do that on Spotify or Apple

27:33

Podcasts or Podchaser or about

27:35

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27:37

you want to support the show , the best way to do that

27:39

is still to tell a friend about Planthropology

27:42

, because word of mouth is still the

27:44

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27:47

also you could head to planthropologypodcastcom

27:49

and pick up some merch and find old

27:51

episodes . You can go to buymeacoffeecom

27:54

slash planthropology and for the price of a cup

27:56

of coffee , you could buy me a cup of coffee . I

27:58

drink a lot of coffee and

28:00

it's important to me . A friend

28:02

of mine once said that I died years ago and

28:05

it's all the caffeine in my system

28:07

keeping me animated . Yes , my friends , I am a

28:09

caffeine zombie , and if you would like this

28:11

caffeine zombie to keep making this

28:13

podcast . I would appreciate your

28:16

support . Go follow

28:18

Sarah all the places . Her information

28:20

is in the bio

28:23

thing . What is that called ? The show notes ? All

28:25

her information's in the show notes she talks about at the end

28:27

. But go follow the AnthroDish podcast . It's

28:29

wonderful . What else there's another thing

28:31

? Oh yeah , I wrote a book . It's called Plants to the Rescue

28:33

. If you have kids , if you have eyes , I

28:36

think that you would really enjoy this book

28:38

. So go check out Plants to the Rescue all the places . Go

28:41

check out Dr Sarah Dugnan and

28:53

buckle yourself right up for the second half of this episode , where we talk

28:55

about communication , we talk about anthro dish , we talk about food equity and so many other things . It's

28:57

great , you'll love it . Stick around and let's do it all . Right , we

28:59

are back , so let's talk

29:01

about your podcast , anthro dish , which is wonderful

29:04

, by the way . Uh , I have . I

29:06

was actually really excited to have a big backlog

29:08

to listen to . It's . It's fun . When I find a

29:11

new show and

29:13

sometimes there's like 10 episodes , I'm like well

29:15

, but now I have to like wait , you know , that's

29:17

terrible . I've gotten

29:19

so used to like you know , netflix dropping an

29:21

entire season of something at once that my

29:23

brain is like what do you mean ? I have to

29:25

wait two weeks . How do I do that ? Like so

29:28

, how did

29:30

that start ? You've been doing it for quite a while , right

29:32

Since 2018

29:34

. Wow .

29:35

Yeah , it doesn't feel that long

29:37

, but when you say it , it does yeah .

29:39

So what was the inspiration for that ?

29:45

I mean , I assume just a lot of what we've

29:47

been talking about . Yeah

29:49

, it was really again like there was one particular class , and I love telling the story

29:52

because I was TAing for someone who was just not

29:54

rubbing me the right way . We've

29:56

all been there , yeah exactly , yeah

29:59

, um and just it

30:01

was very um . I mean

30:03

, anyone that has listened to my show knows that I'm very

30:05

like hypercritical about , um , the

30:07

idea of infusing , like wellness

30:10

as a be all and end all in food . Um

30:12

, and so within this class that was happening

30:14

quite a bit and to a group

30:16

of students who are pretty young , like these are these are

30:19

people in their 19 to 25

30:21

age bracket can be pretty impressionable

30:23

, and I was just getting so frustrated sitting

30:25

there Um , it was like Monday

30:27

nights between seven and 10 PM super

30:30

snowy , super dark , like just the worst . That's

30:33

brutal , my

30:39

goodness , truly like the worst time slot for any sort of course and I was seeing

30:41

the students falling asleep or starting to become really

30:43

worried that you know they had a lot of anxiety

30:45

around what foods they were able to

30:47

eat and you know food or

30:49

university students can be really food insecure

30:52

. Oh yeah to eat and you know food or university students can be really food insecure , um . So

30:54

just watching all that happen and feeling like there weren't

30:56

alternative voices for people

30:58

to to listen to and to hear from

31:00

, um , I just kind

31:02

of felt compelled to to start having

31:04

. You know , I was having these conversations with people

31:06

again , like working at restaurants , um , seeing

31:09

all these different people linking to food in

31:11

different ways . Um , it just felt like it was

31:13

an injustice to not share those conversations . So

31:16

it really like it started , you

31:18

know me having conversations with friends

31:21

at my kitchen table , like you can hear the kitchen table

31:23

creaking episodes , um

31:25

, which , yeah , I don't , I don't listen to those

31:28

as often , but , um

31:31

, and then it kind of grew and , and I think , um

31:33

, I've always made it a virtual conversation

31:36

, similar to what you're doing , and it allows you

31:38

to just connect to people across the world that you

31:41

wouldn't otherwise , and you

31:43

know it would be people that um I

31:45

had spoken with on the show would say , oh , you know

31:47

, so-and-so does some really cool work , um

31:53

, out in BC , you should talk to them . Um , and so , gradually , I'm sure , similar to

31:55

you , you start to build this connection with

31:57

other people and you build this community and , yeah

32:00

, I've , I've never looked back Like it's just been . It's

32:02

been such a like fun , joyful community

32:04

to build and to to be

32:06

able to meet people through it uh , like yourself

32:09

as well .

32:10

Yeah , it's super cool , super cool . So , like what

32:12

? What kind of topics have

32:14

you covered on the show ? I know that you've had a lot of

32:16

episodes , so I understand , but , like , what

32:19

types of things do you try to focus

32:21

on ? Is it just ? I have gotten

32:23

to the point over the years . You know I've done this since

32:25

I started in November

32:29

of 2019 , which

32:31

was such a weird time to start something

32:33

new like this right before , like

32:36

, we left for spring break in March of 2020 and

32:38

didn't come back . You know , I was like see

32:41

you in August maybe , and

32:43

at the time I was trying to finish

32:45

my dissertation and

32:47

didn't want to .

32:50

So I started a podcast , so we did

32:52

the same thing . Yeah , I just . So I started a podcast , so we did the same thing . Yeah , I just , I'm a glutton

32:54

for punishment or something .

32:57

But over time it's like , I

32:59

think when I started , I had sort of a vision of okay

33:02

, these are the types of conversations

33:04

we're going to have and these are the types of . And then

33:06

at some point I was like anyone who

33:08

will talk to me has so much cool stuff to bring . You

33:10

know what I mean . Anyone who will talk to me has so

33:12

much cool stuff to bring . You know what I mean . So , like

33:14

, what

33:17

types of things do you try to to focus on ?

33:18

Or is it just kind of the oh , this sounds interesting , let's do it . Oh , it's a good

33:20

question . I find I'm a little bit of both . Like I want to say it's , I'll

33:22

talk to anyone . But I've gotten a bit more restrictive

33:25

in recent years and I'll explain why

33:27

. But for me it's always been thinking

33:30

about the idea of food as knowledge and not

33:33

being restricted to like the ivory tower . So

33:35

I absolutely have , like , researchers , academics

33:37

, come on and share their research

33:40

, because that's important to you know , put that

33:42

past a paywall and talk about it in a way

33:44

that's not going to make people's eyes

33:46

dry over . But

33:50

I also think it's really important to value different

33:52

forms of food knowledge . So , you

33:54

know , I I always say in the beginning it's this

33:56

show that explores , like food , identity and culture

33:58

and , um , I see food as

34:01

a very open-ended subject . So I've

34:03

had people on talking about um

34:05

substance use , um alcohol

34:07

, water , CBD beverages

34:09

, stuff like that , Um , because that's still

34:11

food , that's still something that you ingest . Um

34:14

, I think where I put restrictions

34:16

, um is around

34:18

like food products . I've I've definitely

34:20

had people in the past Um

34:23

, and I find I struggle a bit more with those

34:25

sorts of stories because it's some

34:28

of them have interesting stories behind them , but quite

34:30

often I think I

34:33

hit that you know , middle

34:35

or 20 to 30 something

34:37

, white woman wellness realm

34:39

a little bit sometimes . And yeah

34:42

, there is . I mean , there is one conversation

34:44

I had with a wellness

34:47

product that the Kardashians ended up campaigning

34:49

for and that was kind of the line for me of like

34:52

I don't feel comfortable

34:54

with that .

34:57

I can see that , though , because I

34:59

feel like the whole tone of your show is

35:02

very much making

35:05

food accessible , making

35:07

it equitable , and sometimes

35:10

some of those things are just not . They're just

35:12

not and they're not more than that . Things are just not , they're just not and they're not more

35:14

than that . They're not , they're not intended to be , and

35:18

I think that , yeah , and

35:21

I also really appreciate and

35:23

think it's really cool that you protect your

35:25

space well . I think that that's important

35:28

, because this is like your message , that you're getting out

35:30

, but you're also platforming

35:32

a lot of really , really

35:34

fascinating conversations and perspectives

35:37

, and protecting that is important , and

35:39

so that's that's admirable , I think .

35:42

Thanks , yeah , it was . It was not an easy choice

35:44

. It was , honestly , I think it was around the pandemic point

35:46

, where that , that was kind of where I

35:48

was getting , you know , pitches

35:51

from people or from PR agents that were selling

35:53

, like peanut butter or honey or certain

35:56

things that were just pancakes , um

35:58

, that were really expensive , and and thinking

36:00

, you know , particularly to the fact that

36:02

you know , if I'm getting sent these

36:05

boxes of pancakes or honey or

36:07

whatever and I can't actually afford

36:09

them , why would I , why would

36:11

I be talking about them on the show ? And I think , you

36:13

know , wellness is a really important part of looking

36:16

at food and thinking about health

36:18

in a way that's like culturally , um

36:20

, founded and culturally accessible

36:24

, um , but that

36:27

type of wellness , as you said , it's , it's just not , it's

36:29

not an accessible form of it and

36:31

it can do a lot of damage , um

36:33

, kind of not to go down

36:35

that rabbit hole , yeah

36:38

, um , but yeah , I do . I do find

36:40

like those sorts of things , um

36:42

, it was an interesting time because it was it

36:45

was looking at using different food

36:47

products as medicine , which is really important

36:49

in certain cultural spheres , um

36:51

, but it was also coming up against

36:53

a time where there was a lot of people who were , um

36:56

, you know , kind of skeptical around vaccines

36:58

and around everything to do with COVID

37:01

, which , um , yeah , I

37:03

just wanted to kind of be in a place of uh

37:05

having these , having the ability to have like

37:07

nuanced conversations around it , but not saying

37:09

like you should only use honey

37:11

to cure your you know , um

37:14

strep , right .

37:16

Right , no , and that's a

37:18

and that is a . That's a hard line to tread

37:20

and and kind of , like you said , like I'll get pitches

37:23

from people , sometimes for an episode

37:25

and for one . You know , I'm just kind of sponsored

37:27

by my university . I do this sort of as part of my

37:29

job and so I have to be careful

37:31

about conflicts of interest and those kinds of

37:33

things . But like I also

37:35

like want to make sure I'm putting good science

37:37

out there , that I'm putting , yeah , good , true

37:40

, factual information . So sometimes I'll get a pitch and I'm

37:42

just like , like this would be a

37:44

cool guest and I just can't do

37:46

it . I just can't do it because there's there's

37:48

a line there that I

37:51

don't . I don't know that . I know what

37:54

the hard line is in my brain , but

37:56

it's like I know it when I see it , if that makes sense

37:58

. Like if your brain curdles a little

38:00

bit , yeah , it's like oh , or

38:03

, you know , thinking about the people that listen , Like

38:05

the last thing I would want to do is cause harm

38:07

, right , and I think that

38:09

that's again as communicators

38:11

, as scientists , as educators , like

38:13

spices from around the world but

38:32

they were very

38:34

much white owned company from

38:37

the States , Um , and I think

38:39

it .

38:40

Those sorts of power dynamics to me are

38:42

kind of central to my show of looking at , like , who's

38:44

telling the story ? Has that story

38:46

been told , um , effectively

38:49

, or have people been able to access that

38:51

? And I'm sure , similar to you , like

38:53

, there's a lot of students that listen to my show and I I

38:55

don't want to , I don't want to

38:57

kind of guide them off a

39:00

place of curiosity , but I think it's it's

39:02

also as educators , like still your responsibility

39:04

to to make sure that you're you're

39:06

sharing good science , good stories that

39:08

are founded in like I

39:11

don't know more grassroots , for lack

39:13

of a better term , Absolutely .

39:14

No , I totally , totally agree

39:16

with that . Yeah , um , so

39:19

a couple that this

39:21

kind of brings a couple of questions to

39:23

my mind . Um , and

39:25

and maybe this one is specific , and if it's

39:27

not something you really want to dive into , we don't have to but

39:30

, like when you cook at home , like what

39:32

kinds of things do you like ?

39:35

Oh , that's a fun question to ask right now . So

39:39

, for context , I'm currently I'm seven

39:42

months pregnant and I cannot stand cooking

39:44

.

39:44

Fair enough , ok , when you're not seven months

39:46

pregnant when the idea of it is not

39:49

terrible to you , the idea of it is not terrible

39:51

to you ?

39:52

Um , it's still a funny question because I find um

40:01

I guess that's like an undercurrent in my show that , um , I , I had a long struggle

40:03

with food and my relationship with it , which I'm pretty open about . Um , I tend to , you know

40:05

, at least once a season , have someone come on that speaks

40:08

to like disordered eating experiences , just to get

40:10

different . You know different voices around that

40:12

. Um , so for me , like I

40:15

spent a lot of time thinking about food as fuel as an athlete

40:17

, like what , what can I put into my body that has

40:20

, like the most optimal output ? Um

40:22

, and so learning how to

40:24

cook was like a something I didn't really

40:27

do until I was in my twenties . Um

40:29

, I was vegetarian for a long time . So I think , like you

40:32

know , I always come back to like bowl based

40:34

food what sort of grain , be

40:36

it like rice or , or buckwheat or things

40:38

like that , um , and then

40:40

like beans , vegetables , stuff

40:43

like that . Um yeah , that's kind

40:45

of . That's kind of where I I tend to

40:47

go to . Okay , I just , I

40:49

don't know , no , it's just an interesting like it's

40:51

.

40:51

It's an interesting thing because I think we all have

40:53

again different relationships with

40:56

food in the way like

41:02

I grew up , I grew up cooking with my mom , so we like it was just me and her for a lot of my childhood

41:05

and so she has always cooked very intuitively

41:07

and just like she's . So

41:10

I'm first generation American . My family

41:12

immigrated from India

41:16

in the 70s and so

41:18

like the kind of the suite

41:20

of spices and things that we use growing up were so

41:22

different than , like you know , anything

41:24

else , and so like I've always like just

41:27

tried stuff and sometimes that turns

41:29

out real well and sometimes less

41:31

so stuff and sometimes that turns out real well and sometimes less

41:34

so , and so I don't know . I'm

41:38

always just curious when people are sort of in the food and into some of these conversations , just like

41:40

how they process that and think through it . So I appreciate your

41:42

transparency on that , just because it's an interesting

41:44

at least in my mind an interesting kind

41:46

of thing .

41:48

Yeah , and I always love like that's something . It's

41:50

interesting that you say that about growing up

41:52

and being able to cook with your mom , because you

41:55

know , when I talk to people on the show quite often

41:57

that's like a central experience is that you

41:59

grew up watching your mom being able to cook

42:01

something that's like specific to your family and

42:05

I grew up with like shake and bake and meatloaf , so

42:08

which was fine and it , you know

42:10

, it served the purpose of that us and yeah , I always it served

42:12

the purpose of fetus and um , yeah , I always find it really interesting , I

42:14

think . I

42:16

think my relationship with food has made me more

42:18

curious to keep asking questions about it , because it

42:21

took me so much longer to get to that point of

42:23

having a good relationship with

42:25

it .

42:25

Sure , that's , that's really interesting . Um

42:28

, so again you're

42:30

what ? Maybe a hundred episodes in more

42:32

than a hundred episodes in your show , I don't remember exactly

42:34

.

42:34

Less than you , Cause I was looking at how many

42:36

episodes I think I'm I'm putting a one 23

42:40

tomorrow , yeah .

42:42

Okay , uh , so I kind

42:44

of around the same same spot . I

42:46

uh , for a while I was like I'm

42:48

going to put out a ton of content , and then I quickly burned

42:50

out and took a break .

42:52

Fair yeah .

42:53

Yeah .

42:53

That was a wild amount in that amount of time

42:56

it was , it was a lot , and so I have gone to

42:58

every other week .

42:58

now Is your show weekly , weekly

43:00

ish .

43:02

Yeah it's , it's weekly but seasonal

43:05

. So I had similarly done the thing of

43:07

like I'm going to put one out every single week because

43:09

that's what the you know . Put

43:12

one out every single week because that's what the you know YouTubers that podcast told

43:14

me to do when I started out . Um , I

43:16

like to kind of align it with , like , the school semester

43:19

. Um , even though I'm not teaching

43:21

or a student at this point , there's something

43:24

about it that just feels right to me . So

43:27

usually , yeah , seasons start in September

43:29

and then I'm kind of in the process of wrapping

43:31

up and having episodes wrap by like end

43:34

of April , early May okay , that's really

43:36

cool .

43:37

I should think about . My problem is I've tried

43:39

to do that like last June . I

43:42

was like I'm gonna take the summer off and I

43:44

took the rest of the year off . I was like , oh , that

43:46

was maybe a little bit like a little bit much , and

43:48

so I have to . I have to

43:50

at least keep some consistency , or I find other

43:52

things to fill that like block of

43:54

time with , and then

43:57

my brain is just like , no , but we're already doing the other

43:59

thing .

44:00

It's hard , I find it . I think I did a similar

44:03

thing . Well , I ended up transitioning of academia

44:05

, but I was still like I was teaching

44:07

and consulting at the same time , and so I

44:10

, similarly , I took a break and then I it

44:12

ended up being a year , um , which

44:14

was like the longest amount of time away from podcasting

44:16

, and there's something about like , if you

44:18

haven't done an interview for a while , I find I

44:21

just get so much more nervous to just get that

44:23

momentum going again .

44:25

Oh I oh , my first interview this year , uh

44:28

, as I was getting back , so I did a solo episode

44:30

jumping back into it and

44:32

it was okay . And then I did an interview and I

44:34

was like I don't remember how to talk to people . Like I know

44:36

I've talked to people in the last six months but apparently

44:39

I don't know how to do that right now . Yep

44:42

, it is such a like a skill

44:44

and like a muscle you have to like train over

44:46

time . I agree

44:48

, yeah , Do you have . I

44:51

like to ask this question to other podcasters , especially

44:53

the interview people Do you have

44:55

like a couple of things that

44:58

are like your favorite things you've

45:00

learned over the process

45:03

of doing this podcast ?

45:08

I think . Okay , I will say one

45:12

of the most interesting lessons I've

45:14

ever gotten on the show was with

45:17

his name's Andrew Levin , and

45:19

he was talking about seafood fraud , and I had no

45:21

idea about that concept prior to interviewing

45:24

him . We had met through like some sort of podcast

45:27

or Facebook group back in the day , and

45:29

so he was talking about how there's this huge

45:31

problem , particularly in the US and Canada , where

45:34

seafood is

45:36

mislabeled . So you're getting like a

45:38

really cheap white fish but it's labeled

45:40

as like an expensive fish

45:42

and the regulations around it . Like

45:44

he dove into that pun

45:46

intended , I guess , and

45:50

I had no idea before that . And so

45:52

those are the sorts of lessons where you know Um

45:55

. That one or another one was um . A friend of mine

45:57

works as like a um . She

46:00

watches out for wildfires in Alberta , um

46:03

, during wildfire season . So she was talking about you

46:05

know what sorts of foods that you eat , um

46:08

, being a lookout at the fire tower

46:10

and you know . Otherwise , I'd never

46:12

hear those sorts of stories . So those are the

46:14

ones that tend to stick . That's so cool .

46:17

I've . I've found some like social media

46:19

videos , tiktok and Instagram of like

46:21

fire , lookout people and

46:23

, like you know , sitting up in the little I don't

46:25

know I don't cabin on top of

46:27

a mountain , like by themselves , and there's

46:29

days that I'm like that's

46:31

the show , like that's the dream yeah

46:34

, like I want to go and be alone

46:36

, for I know would

46:38

get bored . I'm too much of an extrovert Like

46:40

I have to , but but for

46:42

like a week or two that sounds just

46:45

amazing .

46:46

Yeah , that also spoken like a true academic

46:48

though , having

46:50

that ability to like have the two weeks off and

46:53

commit to like all the side projects we're thinking about

46:55

too .

46:56

Or or or literally just stare

46:58

in the space for , like , there's days

47:00

that I'm like I just want to like unplug my brain

47:02

and just sit here and stay , like I

47:04

kind of ended up doing that last week during spring break

47:06

, and I I

47:09

find that I am not feeling guilty about

47:11

it and part of me , my academic brain

47:13

, feels like I should feel guilty about it and I just don't . So

47:16

yeah maybe that's freedom , I don't know

47:18

.

47:19

Yeah , I think it's necessary . I've been thinking about that

47:21

a lot lately just in terms of , like , expanding

47:24

anthro dish more into food writing . The last

47:26

year or so , I find I get so much

47:28

more , um , like

47:31

, if I see a headline relating to food , I'm immediately thinking

47:33

about , like , how to write about it and how to think about it , and , um

47:36

, you know how to bring anthropology into it , and it's

47:38

so exhausting , um

47:41

, you know , to just feel

47:43

like you always have to have something to say about

47:45

what's going on in the world , and so I think those

47:47

, those breaks are very , very needed yeah .

47:50

So , speaking of always having

47:52

to be on you've , you've gotten into doing

47:54

like social . You do social media too , like

47:56

, uh , and I

47:58

feel like as communicators , as

48:00

science communicators , as educators

48:04

, like we almost have to these days , like we

48:06

go where the people are and the people are on social

48:09

media . What has that experience

48:11

been like for you ? Is that something newer , or

48:13

have you been doing like the social media

48:15

side of it the whole time ? You've been doing the podcast .

48:19

I've been doing like in terms of Instagram

48:21

. Specifically , that's something where I did like

48:24

I worked um doing social media

48:26

production for um for

48:28

different like field schools . That . I had worked for Um

48:31

and like

48:33

I was always on Instagram in my twenties

48:35

, so I was like I might as well just you know

48:37

make it useful . I think where

48:39

it's been more interesting for me is like going

48:41

into TikTok and finally conceding that

48:44

the algorithm is more enjoyable there

48:46

, yeah , and

48:49

more addictive . I guess that is the

48:51

truth , yeah , but

48:53

yeah , that was something that I

48:56

had kind of started to play around with it . I

49:00

had kind of started to play around with it and then I ended up like doing

49:02

a food assignment for students last year where traditionally they had to compare

49:05

a dish at a restaurant with a

49:07

dish that they made at home in terms of , like , how

49:09

it was prepared and the nutritional ingredients and

49:11

the cultural story behind it . And

49:13

I changed that so

49:15

that it was looking at like TikTok food trends

49:18

, which led

49:20

me to end up being on TikTok more , because I was

49:22

looking at these food trends like cacio

49:24

e pepe or um , what

49:26

was it that like Greek , that

49:29

TikTok feta pasta thing ?

49:30

a few years back , that was really big . Yeah , oh , I hadn't

49:33

thought about that , yeah .

49:35

Yeah . So I ended up realizing

49:37

, like , like I think for me , through teaching

49:39

and through just working within communities

49:42

, like , as you said , you have to go where people

49:44

are and making TikTok

49:46

a place where people can think about

49:48

you know well , flattening

49:51

it for a very general audience . And

50:00

how can we kind of dig into that a bit more anthropologically

50:03

? Yeah , I always say

50:05

I entered as an anthropologist into TikTok , but I

50:07

feel like that's not the case anymore .

50:10

But it is such a cool like study

50:13

into the way we again

50:16

we talked about going back to something we talked about at the beginning of

50:18

the episode how food is central

50:20

to so many of our cultural experiences and

50:25

in different cultures it's related in different ways

50:27

and having it out there

50:29

for everyone to see

50:31

across cultures . I think there's a lot of positives

50:34

in that and I think there's a lot of like

50:36

scary parts of that too , like especially

50:38

if you're the one like putting those things out there .

50:41

Yeah , yeah , I agree , and I think for me

50:43

it comes back to the idea of , like digital literacy

50:45

within , you know , within

50:47

teaching or within podcasting . And social media

50:49

use too is and I think that's something you do

50:51

a fabulous job at on TikTok of

50:55

just being able to kind of stop people

50:57

from scrolling for a second and start to think about , like

50:59

you know , who's the source that I'm

51:01

listening to , why are they an expert ? What

51:03

do they have to offer ? What sort of information

51:06

am I getting from it ? Um , you

51:08

know , I , um

51:11

, I'm trying to think of like a recent example , but there's

51:13

there's quite often so many things just kind of being

51:15

thrown at you constantly . Oh , I

51:17

think it was like cold plunges . I was doing some

51:19

research on that and

51:22

the TikTok rabbit hole was vastly

51:24

different from what , you know . Scientists

51:27

and educators were saying as well . So having

51:30

that ability to be digitally

51:32

literate , I think , is an invaluable skill

51:34

going forward .

51:36

Absolutely , that's really interesting , Really

51:38

interesting . Well , Sarah

51:40

, as we kind of wrap up here a little bit

51:42

, it's always I don't know

51:45

. It's always shocking to me how quickly some of these conversations

51:47

go when they're , I mean , we're already 50 minutes

51:49

in and it goes quick , so

51:55

a couple of questions to wrap up . So where do

51:57

you see yourself headed in terms of

51:59

you know , your career , your podcast

52:01

, whatever else you want to do , Like what's what's next for you ?

52:04

Ooh , not to feel like anything

52:06

I say I have to live up to .

52:07

Oh no , Just or where do you think ? Cause

52:09

I think that that also in you know

52:11

, life changes and life's complicated and and

52:13

all of that . So , no , I'm not trying to marry

52:15

you to anything that you say , I'm just curious what

52:18

your thoughts for the future are .

52:21

I think for me , like anthro dish

52:23

is a thing again , like I started it when I was

52:25

in my early twenties , mid

52:28

twenties , and it's

52:31

kind of started to gradually expand

52:33

. Like

52:37

I found being able to interview people was so fascinating but I also I was kind of like losing

52:40

my own voice within it . So

52:42

for me I'm really interested

52:44

in building my writing up through it . That's

52:47

something that's been like a big goal of mine this past

52:49

year is just kind of getting back into getting

52:52

into public science writing . You

52:54

know , finding the places that will house

52:56

the stories that I want to tell , which you

52:59

know I think we're , we kind

53:01

of understand like that nexus of food and

53:03

health and environment as being

53:05

so . You know , you can't

53:07

really untangle them , but I think

53:09

finding finding a space

53:11

for that publicly is like where I want to bring AnthroDish

53:13

. So I still have the interviews , I still get to

53:15

be able to share these fantastic

53:17

conversations , but I also get to

53:19

explore like the food anthro

53:22

part a bit more practically within

53:24

my writing too . Super cool .

53:25

No , I love that . I love that , and I've

53:28

tried to dip my toes

53:30

into writing recently as well , and non-academic

53:33

writing , I should say , because that's

53:35

just like getting punched in the face a bunch , yeah same , just

53:37

like getting punched in the face a bunch . It's

53:39

so like I know I think I'm risking something

53:41

saying this openly . I

53:44

am not , that is not me Like , that

53:46

is just not my thing , me neither .

53:49

Publishing articles

53:51

Reviewer number two .

53:53

I just cannot , like I can do it

53:55

and I'm not like bad at

53:57

it , I

54:00

just don't want to . So , like I'm , I'm always looking into different ways to do things that are meaningful

54:03

, that are still like scholarship

54:05

, but maybe not in the .

54:08

I'm going to sit here and send in an article and

54:10

then cry about the reviews for a while , and then

54:12

you know yeah , well

54:14

, especially , you know , I think about the review process

54:16

in journals and , like I'm , I'm happy to have done

54:19

that and to experience it , but it takes so long and

54:21

I remember , you know , back

54:23

in the early days of my PhD , I wanted

54:25

to find some work on like food in Instagram

54:27

, and that was , I want to say

54:29

, 2015 . And it's only just

54:32

coming out now , whereas you

54:34

have , and not to like , dump on academia-

54:36

I still really much value it , but I

54:39

think I think it's really important , especially

54:41

when we're in a place where there's just so much

54:43

misinformation and there's , you know , a

54:46

lot of a lot of harm that can come to

54:48

that to our communities . It's really

54:50

important to continue having you

54:52

know public outreach , as I

54:55

again I see it as like a responsibility of of

54:57

academics and educators to to maintain that

54:59

when you have so much knowledge you

55:01

know it's it's up to you to like be able to continue sharing

55:04

it with others .

55:04

Yeah , love that . Um , and

55:07

and I guess the last thing I want to ask you is

55:09

is a question I ask all my guests Uh

55:11

, if you had something

55:13

you wanted to leave people with , like a piece of advice

55:16

, uh , what it could be about

55:18

, literally , honestly , anything . Um

55:20

, what would that be like ? What ? What do you wish

55:22

that people listening to this episode

55:25

knew ?

55:25

Oh , that's a good question . I think for me , the big one

55:28

that I always want to hit home about is that

55:30

, um , food , as much

55:32

as it's , uh , something that can bring people

55:34

together to get them to talk about bigger issues

55:36

, it's also , um , it's

55:38

also a tool that can be used against community , to break

55:41

community , and I think , for me , having

55:43

that ability to balance both lenses , of

55:45

looking at food as a tool both

55:47

for good or for bad , to kind of

55:49

generalize it for me that's

55:51

the big message is kind of thinking about how is food

55:53

being used , be

55:55

it in your grocery store or at

55:58

your family dinner table or within

56:01

your communities at large . Is it being used to bring

56:03

people together , or are there people that

56:05

are using tactics to kind of fracture

56:08

, fracture community , and thinking about

56:10

food is that kind of stepping stone to

56:12

look at those bigger issues as well .

56:14

It's fascinating . Yeah , I think that's such a good thing to

56:16

keep in mind and remember for sure

56:18

. Yeah , I think that's such a good thing to keep in mind and remember

56:20

for sure . Sarah , again , 50 plus minutes has gone

56:22

quick and I've genuinely

56:25

a pleasure . I've so much enjoyed talking to you

56:27

and hearing from your experience and

56:29

just what you do . I think it's

56:31

again very inspiring and

56:33

very good and necessary work . So thanks

56:35

for doing it . I appreciate it .

56:38

Thank you , and likewise it's honestly , it's such a pleasure

56:40

to be able to connect with someone that does this in

56:42

in their own way , through plant anthropology as well . So

56:45

it's .

56:45

It's a lot of fun . Um , where can people find you

56:47

? Uh , plug your stuff .

56:50

Considering I asked that to everyone , you'd think I'd be prepared

56:52

. So

56:56

anthrodishcom is my website . Um , you can

56:58

find me on any podcast platforms , um

57:01

, at anthrodish podcast . Uh , across

57:04

social media , anthrodish podcast . And

57:06

then my newsletter is sarahdugnansubstackcom

57:09

.

57:09

Awesome , and I'll put links to all that stuff in the

57:12

show notes . But thanks again . I hope

57:14

you have a wonderful rest

57:16

of your week , or I guess it's only Monday as

57:18

we record this . So I hope you have a wonderful week

57:21

and just

57:23

thanks again . I appreciate it .

57:25

Yeah , likewise . Thanks , Rick .

57:26

Y'all go follow Sarah all the places . Is she

57:28

not the best ? Again , I said it earlier , but

57:31

she's the best . Also , the AnthroDish

57:33

podcast is fantastic , so go listen

57:35

to that too . Thanks so much for listening to this episode

57:38

and all the episodes of Plantthropology

57:40

. You know I do this for you and I appreciate

57:42

you so much . Thanks to the Texas Tech Department

57:44

of Plant and Soil Science for supporting

57:46

the show . Thanks to the award-winning

57:49

composer , nick Scout , for

57:51

our music If you Want to Love Me

57:53

, babe , which is just so jangly

57:56

and fun . I love folk music and he did such

57:58

a good job on it . And once more , go

58:05

follow Sarah all the places . Y'all spend some time thinking about the role that food serves

58:07

in your life and in your community and how you can make that

58:10

more equitable and better . Keep

58:12

being kind to one another . If you have not , to this

58:14

time , been kind to one another

58:16

, maybe give that a shot

58:18

. It's pretty cool . Keep

58:21

being very cool . Plant people . You know I love

58:23

you and I will talk to you very

58:25

soon .