On Wednesday morning, Frank Fahrenkopf received a letter from the Bidenpresidential campaign that ruined his day. Fahrenkopf is co-chair of theCommission on Presidential Debates, which has produced 33 debates since1988, the first election year it was in business.

He was planning on four more this year: three with Biden and Trump aswell as the quadrennial vice presidential debate. But the Biden campaigntold Fahrenkopf that the president would not be participating in any ofthem.

Instead, the Biden campaign announced that it would negotiate with theTrump campaign and individual media organizations to plan two debatesoutside of the Commission’s process.

By the end of the day Biden and Trump were set to debate in June on CNNand in September on ABC.

On this episode of Deep Dive, Fahrenkopf joins host and Playbookco-author Ryan Lizza to discuss the fall-out from this decision,including the roles of Biden, Trump, and Anita Dunn; why he thinks RFKJr. may have grounds for a lawsuit against CNN and what some of hisfavorite behind-the-scenes stories are from his decades of producingdebates. 

Ryan Lizza is a Playbook co-author for POLITICO.Frank Fahrenkopf is the co-chair of the Commission on PresidentialDebates. Kara Tabor is a producer for POLITICO audio. Alex Keeney is a senior producer for POLITICO audio.