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both the ocean.com. Welcome

1:22

to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm

1:24

Dan Pfeiffer. On today's

1:26

show... We are looking at count

1:29

one, guilty. Count

1:31

two, guilty. Count

1:34

19, guilty. Count 20, guilty.

1:37

Count 33 and 34, guilty. That

1:42

is Donald J. Trump, defendant in New York v.

1:44

Donald Trump, found guilty

1:46

on all 34 felony counts. That

1:50

is the verdict here in this case. Guilty,

1:53

guilty, guilty. Donald

1:56

Trump, the twice-impeached former president

1:58

and current Republican... nominee is

2:00

now running as a convicted

2:03

felon. Late Thursday afternoon after

2:05

about only eight hours of deliberation

2:07

a 12-person jury of his peers

2:10

found him guilty on all 34 felony

2:12

counts of falsifying business records in the

2:15

first degree as part of an effort

2:17

to unlawfully influence the 2016 election. He

2:19

is scheduled

2:23

to be sentenced on July 11th

2:25

just four days before

2:27

he is formally nominated at the

2:30

Republican National Convention. Dan, how about

2:32

that? What a day my friend,

2:34

what a day. Good

2:37

things can happen. I'm

2:39

sorry, were we supposed to be this is a very

2:41

serious and somber day for America or are we just

2:43

do we pop in champagne? We're popping champagne.

2:46

Okay good, I just wanted to make sure you're

2:48

on. We're not gonna pretend. Everyone, everyone is pretending

2:50

that we can't be happy. This

2:54

is a dark day for America. We've been living in

2:56

fucking dark days for years now. Right? Let's have a

2:58

good one. All right and this is not

3:01

to say that we're like oh this means we're gonna win the

3:03

election. No, no, no. That's kind of what it means. That's

3:06

kind of, yeah we're gonna talk about that later but

3:08

today, this day, this weekend,

3:10

this is a happy time. We

3:12

can go back to being anxious

3:15

and scared afterwards but

3:17

right now happy day. Okay

3:19

we are gonna hear from our old pal

3:21

Norm Eisen, CNN legal commentator, our former White

3:23

House colleague. We're gonna hear from Norm in

3:25

a bit. He was in the courtroom. We're

3:28

gonna hear later from strict scrutiny's Melissa Murray.

3:30

Brought her back after she's doing double duty

3:32

POD Save America this week and she's gonna

3:34

get into the verdict with us and what's

3:36

happens next. But first let's

3:39

hear from the convicted felon himself. This

3:41

was a discourse. This

3:44

was a rigged trial by a

3:46

conflicted judge who was corrupt. It's

3:49

a rigged trial in discourse. It

3:52

wouldn't give us a venue change. This

4:01

was a rigged, disgraceful trial.

4:05

The real verdict is going to be November

4:07

5th by the people. And

4:10

they know what happened here and everybody knows what

4:12

happened here. You have

4:14

a sore respect, DA, and the whole

4:17

thing. We didn't do a full

4:19

world. I'm a very

4:21

innocent man. And

4:24

it's okay. I'm fighting for our country.

4:26

I'm fighting for our Constitution. Our

4:28

whole country is being rigged right now. This

4:31

was stunned by the administration

4:34

in order to wound or hurt an

4:37

opponent, a political opponent. And

4:39

I think it's just a disgrace. And

4:42

we'll keep fighting. We'll fight till the end and we'll

4:44

win. Because our country's gone to

4:46

hell. We don't have the

4:48

same country anymore. We have a divided mess.

4:51

We're nation in decline. And Syria is

4:53

between millions and millions of people pouring

4:56

into our country right now. Professions

4:59

and problems. Mental institutions,

5:01

terrorists. And they're taking

5:04

over our country. We have a country that's

5:06

in big trouble. But this was

5:08

a rigged decision right from day one with

5:11

a conflicted judge. We should have never been

5:13

allowed to try this case. Never. And

5:16

we will fight for our Constitution. This is more

5:18

from over. Thank you very much. Why are you

5:21

going to drop out?

5:24

Cry harder. Are you going

5:27

to drop out? Great question. I appreciate that person.

5:29

I do too. Of

5:31

course, the Biden administration, you know,

5:34

the DOJ actually passed on this case. So

5:36

everything he said about that was a lie.

5:39

So to give us his perspective of what it

5:41

was like inside the courtroom shortly before Donald Trump

5:43

walked out and just spoke to the

5:45

cameras just now, our former White

5:48

House colleague and pal Norm Eisen, can

5:50

you give us a little color from

5:52

inside the courtroom today? What was it

5:54

like when the when the when

5:56

the verdict came in? There was

5:59

a little confusion at some point. because it seemed like Judge

6:01

Marchand was going to send the jury home at 4.15. Then

6:04

suddenly we had a verdict. What was going on there? You

6:08

know, it was whiplash, right? Because we

6:10

all thought he said, okay, we're sending

6:12

the jury home 4.30.

6:15

I'm going to send him home.

6:17

And people were already tweeting, oh, this means

6:20

the jury is deadlocked. I'm like, I

6:22

was already like, got a fight, a social

6:24

media war. No, it doesn't mean anything. It's

6:26

only one day. Then he says, we have

6:28

a note. This is

6:31

a very, this courtroom, 1530

6:34

of Manhattan Criminal Court, Part

6:36

59, is full of

6:38

the most battled,

6:41

hardened journalists,

6:44

right? I mean, you guys, Dan

6:47

trained me how to deal with

6:49

journalists on a wholesale run,

6:52

run far away. Mission

6:54

accomplished. When

6:57

we had a really big problem, he would tell me

6:59

to run at them. Even

7:02

in that room, when he said we have

7:04

a note from the jury, there's a verdict.

7:07

Those cynical, you know, they

7:09

gasped. He said, I will

7:12

not have any outbursts, no

7:14

loud outbursts when the verdict is

7:16

read. I immediately wrote,

7:18

I can

7:22

read it to you. I immediately wrote

7:24

a jury of 12 Americans

7:28

today found Donald Trump guilty

7:30

on 34 charges of election

7:34

interference and coverup. I've

7:37

already filed my, I do a daily trial

7:39

diary for CNN. I knew

7:42

that if it came back that fast,

7:44

and that's part of the gap. If it comes back

7:46

that fast in a day and a half, that's

7:49

a hanging jury, not

7:51

a hung jury. And

7:55

so there was that feeling, of course, you never know

7:57

for 100%. So Um,

8:00

and then, you know,

8:02

then, uh, the, uh, the

8:04

jury came in, they filed

8:06

in about a half an hour later,

8:09

they did not look at Trump, they,

8:11

their head was down. That's a

8:13

sign. I'm a defense lawyer most

8:15

of my life. I never wanted to be a

8:17

prosecutor. Um, and

8:19

when the jury comes in and not one

8:22

looks at your client, you're doomed. And

8:25

then the first count guilty,

8:28

what's the verdict on count one guilty and

8:30

those beautiful 33 guilties

8:33

that followed that. And he

8:35

is guilty. He's guilty of

8:37

subverting. It was so strange. I

8:39

wrote this in my C and

8:41

M column, not to say alleged

8:43

election interference, but for the first

8:45

time I could write election interference,

8:48

criminal conspiracy and coverup.

8:52

Um, he's now an

8:54

adjudicated criminal. Uh,

8:56

and he's a democracy criminal. That's what

8:58

matters so much. Um, and,

9:01

and I hope people will recognize that

9:03

when he says he's going to be

9:05

a dictator on day one, it's just

9:07

more criminality. Norm,

9:10

what was Trump's reaction as these,

9:12

the 34 guilty votes were read?

9:15

Grim. Uh,

9:19

it's not a good feeling Dan. I

9:24

happened just by happenstance. Um,

9:27

there is a place where I sometimes sit

9:29

that is the last seat on

9:31

the left as you enter the courtroom right

9:34

before the door and that's where he looks.

9:37

And a couple of times in this trial, I think I

9:39

talked about it with y'all once.

9:41

He's met my eye. He went

9:43

glare game grimace at me. So

9:45

I made sure like I was sitting forward

9:48

in my seat, you know, I was attempting

9:50

to meet him, I was looking at the

9:52

eyes. He was not looking anybody in the

9:54

eye. He was looking down. He

9:57

was, um, I think.

10:00

I think, angry, he

10:03

recognizes that this will be very

10:05

damaging and

10:07

that he may go to jail. I

10:11

think there's a serious prospect that he's going to

10:13

get a jail sentence and if he's not reelected

10:15

that he serves that jail sentence. Yeah,

10:18

I was going to ask about that. Say

10:20

a little more about the possible jail sentence

10:22

because I know you've written in your book

10:24

that you thought the jail was likely. Of

10:27

course, we know the history

10:29

of these kinds of cases and it's

10:31

a first offense. What makes you think

10:33

that jail is really on the table

10:35

here? The reason I think

10:38

that jail sentence is on the table

10:40

is that I looked at

10:42

10,000 of these

10:47

FBR, false-fying business records cases

10:49

in New York since 2015.

10:55

I wanted to know, do defendants

10:58

ever get jail time for this

11:00

crime? In

11:03

the most serious cases, and

11:06

this is the

11:09

most serious FBR case in the

11:11

history of the state of New York, in the

11:13

most serious cases, defendants do get jail time. I

11:15

don't think the judge is going to send him

11:17

up for the, this is a

11:19

one and a third to four years. New

11:23

York has indeterminate sentences, so

11:25

you get a range. The

11:27

judge also has the power to sentence

11:29

him to less than a year. I

11:32

think he probably will get a sentence

11:34

of less than a year, but

11:36

that's not good news in Manhattan

11:38

because those sentences are served in

11:40

jail, not state prison, and the

11:43

jail for the city of Manhattan,

11:45

of course, is Rikers. So

11:47

that's not great news for the former

11:50

president. Wow. Let's jump to

11:52

Rikers question mark, pod title. He's

12:00

going to put up a bunch

12:02

of constitutional defenses at the

12:04

end of his appeals. I don't think the

12:06

judge released him on his own recognizance. I don't

12:09

think he's going to have to serve jail

12:11

time before he's done with his appeals. The

12:13

appeals in this case can take a

12:15

year, even 18 months. But

12:18

it makes the election a

12:21

referendum of the American people

12:23

on Donald Trump's criminality and

12:25

accountability. And we've

12:27

seen 2018, 2020, 2022,

12:30

when that's the question that is

12:32

put to them, they don't like

12:34

Donald Trump's way of doing

12:36

business. So it's not a

12:38

great day for Donald Trump.

12:41

Well, Norm, there was certainly one

12:44

former occupant of the White House

12:46

who should have taken your ethics

12:48

training. I

12:50

tried to give it to him. I tried to

12:52

give it to him, Fab. I

12:55

volunteered. The wonderful

12:57

Max Steyer of the Partnership

12:59

for Public Service brings the

13:02

specialists in for both presidential

13:04

campaigns. And

13:06

I helped both presidential campaigns with

13:09

these. I offered to help with this stuff.

13:12

And I actually had a brief

13:14

tenure after he won, advising Chris

13:18

Christie's team before Christie was

13:20

booted out of the transition.

13:23

So he had his chance. That

13:27

was the original sin when he chose

13:29

to take office. And we talked about

13:31

it at the time. The

13:34

Constitution says there's

13:36

only one ethics rule in the

13:38

Constitution. Don't take money

13:40

or other goodies from foreign

13:42

government. A monument. And

13:45

he did that. It was all downhill from

13:47

there and landed him in these 34 felony

13:50

convictions that he received

13:55

just a few minutes ago. Thanks

14:00

as always for joining the pod and

14:03

hope you go take some time off. The

14:06

pod is, I'm going to, I'm going

14:09

to take my wife on vacation. The

14:11

pod is not just news for

14:14

us. Y'all

14:16

sound the alarm and you talk about what

14:18

we have to do, what

14:20

we have to do. We've been having

14:22

this conversation since that emoluments talk about

14:25

Trump's criminality, the first week of the

14:27

pod. So I

14:30

thank you and all of the

14:32

Pod Save America family. Thanks Dan,

14:34

thanks Paz. Thanks Norm, take care.

14:44

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the world and the seven

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to travel. This show is

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sponsored by BetterHelp. This year has gone so quickly. What

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boy. There's so many things I'm proud

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That'll make me proud. That'd be great. I'm

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16:09

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16:11

rub it in a little, Pate of America

16:14

is going on tour. He's probably asleep right

16:16

now, but if he were conscious, he'd be

16:18

so, so jealous. The Democracy or Else tour

16:20

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16:23

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16:25

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16:28

See all the tour dates and get

16:30

your tickets now at crooked.com/events. All

16:38

right, Dan, now that we've got all the

16:41

legal stuff out of the way, now we get to talk politics.

16:44

So, you know, the reaction from Trump

16:46

and Republicans so far, I would say,

16:48

has not been necessarily surprising. In

16:51

addition to what we heard from Trump earlier, you

16:54

know, the Speaker of the House is already out

16:56

with a statement saying this is shameful and political.

16:59

The Trump people have already been fundraising

17:01

off this. The minute the verdict was

17:03

announced, they sent out fundraising appeals about

17:05

this. You get a bunch of, you

17:07

know, Twitter conservatives and right-wing MAGA people

17:09

saying, oh, this is only gonna elect

17:12

Donald Trump now. That's the new thing. This is

17:15

actually gonna help Donald Trump and hurt Joe Biden.

17:17

And then I noticed that Larry

17:20

Hogan, the former Republican governor of Maryland who

17:22

is now running for Senate in Maryland, he

17:25

simply posted a tweet saying, you know, everyone

17:27

should respect the verdict. And

17:29

Chris LaCivita, Trump's senior

17:31

aide, said this

17:34

is the end of your campaign. So

17:37

they seem to be taking this quite well, is what I'd say.

17:40

And on the other side, Joe Biden

17:42

tweeted, only one way to

17:45

keep Trump out of the Oval Office, at the

17:47

ballot box. The Biden campaign

17:50

released a statement saying, in New York today, we

17:52

saw that no one is above the law. Donald

17:54

Trump has always mistakenly believed he would never face

17:56

consequences for breaking the law for his own personal

17:58

gain. But today's- verdict doesn't

18:00

change that there's only one way to stop

18:02

Donald Trump, ballot box, just like what Biden

18:04

said. And then it said convicted felon or

18:06

not, Trump will be the Republican nominee for

18:08

president. And then the White House put out

18:10

a statement that just said, we respect the

18:12

rule of law and have no additional comment.

18:14

Okay, so that's all the reaction. What's

18:17

your take on the verdict and the

18:19

potential political impact now that we've had

18:22

a couple hours I guess,

18:24

to really sort of soak in all the

18:26

takes? I mean,

18:28

the verdict, it is just always in these

18:30

moments worth stepping back and realizing just how

18:32

what an unprecedented historical event this is. This

18:35

is the a former president like Donald Trump

18:37

was not running for office ever again, this

18:40

would be a gigantic deal, right? First former

18:42

president convicted of 34 counts of a crime

18:45

related to his first election win, right?

18:47

You have a jury of his peers declaring that

18:50

he tried to cheat to win that election, committed

18:52

crimes to do so. Huge

18:55

deal. You add in the fact that

18:57

he is the presumptive Republican nominee, then you add in the

18:59

fact that polls show that he is a jump ball away

19:01

from the White House. Then you add in the fact that

19:03

we are three and a

19:05

half weeks away from the first debate potentially in this

19:07

campaign. And that debate is scheduled before his sentencing, so

19:09

he will not be able to use house arrest as

19:11

an excuse to get out of that debate. Might

19:14

have to do the second debate with an ankle bracelet on. He

19:16

might have to do it by Zoom. It's

19:20

a giant event, right? And we're going to get to

19:22

the politics. The politics are interesting and important and fascinating.

19:24

But it's just with all things Trump, it's just always

19:26

worth just trying to take a step

19:28

back for a second and try to place

19:31

it, the absurdity of it and the danger

19:33

of it in the broader scope of history.

19:35

Because it's a huge deal. It

19:38

is a huge deal. And yeah, you're

19:40

right. I mean, like even setting aside the politics,

19:43

it does raise the stakes of this

19:45

election in another way, which is like

19:47

if we, if this country

19:50

goes ahead and elects a

19:52

convicted felon to be president,

19:55

then yeah, we are in some tough times

19:58

and we've been in some tough times. in

20:01

politics for the last seven, eight years

20:03

now since Donald Trump walked onto the

20:05

scene. And now this, I

20:07

do think this raises the stakes in the election

20:09

even higher, because now we

20:11

have a very vengeful and angry Donald

20:13

Trump running to become president who has

20:15

now been convicted by a jury of

20:18

his peers. I would say this is

20:20

not the biggest thing, but Donald Trump

20:22

being elected president after being convicted of

20:24

34 felony accounts would

20:26

be the end of scared straight as a

20:29

strategy with kids in school. I

20:32

mean, yeah, you can talk about

20:34

the politics and the polls and we're going to get into all

20:36

that, but it's just like the man

20:38

who wants to be in charge of,

20:41

like it says in the faithfully

20:43

executing the laws of this country

20:46

has broken, has been convicted by a

20:48

jury of his peers of breaking the

20:50

laws that he now wants to faithfully

20:52

execute as president of the United States

20:54

again. That's where we are right now. And

20:57

again, he's now been convicted of

21:00

cheating in the 2016 election. This

21:03

way he was unlawfully influencing the 2016 election

21:06

by falsifying business records and furtherance of

21:08

this hush money scheme. He

21:11

has also been charged with

21:13

trying to overturn the 2020 election. And

21:17

we are waiting for the Supreme Court that

21:19

he created, the Supreme Court majority

21:21

that he created to decide whether he is

21:23

immune from prosecution for that, for trying to

21:25

overturn the 2020 election that he lost. So

21:28

he's been convicted of trying to unlawfully

21:30

influence the 2016 election he won. He's

21:34

been charged with trying to overturn the

21:36

2020 election that he lost. And now

21:38

he is running to be president again

21:40

in the 2024 election and is

21:42

currently leading in the swing state. That's

21:45

where we are, Dan. That's where we are. All

21:47

of those polls were conducted before the conviction. That

21:50

is true. That is true. Well, so then

21:52

what do you think? Let's go right there. What

21:54

do you think about the political impact of this? We've

21:56

been talking about it since before we got a verdict.

21:59

Now That the verdict. devout and it's starting to

22:01

think what you think. I

22:03

think the prevailing narratives that the conviction

22:05

won't really matter is I think pretty

22:07

disconnected from both what the polls actually

22:09

say it's in the reality even election

22:11

that is likely to be this close.

22:14

it is certainly true, that's. Upwards of.

22:16

Three. Quarters that eighty percent of voters.

22:19

Are Not committees are minds mean? Even in

22:22

the Marist poll, there a swath of voters

22:24

who say Trump's conviction makes them more likely

22:26

to vote for him. I'm gonna guess those

22:28

voters weren't previously prior to the conviction in

22:30

the undecided fourth successive if a pretty hardcore

22:32

Trump voters and are a lot of voters

22:35

who don't think a kid they care of.

22:37

We've already seen that. Ah, I'm

22:39

voters when asked about the various

22:41

Trump's various crimes, have raided this

22:43

one to be less severe automatic.

22:45

Most of them think these charges

22:47

raise serious questions about Trump and

22:49

are serious is not a serious

22:51

as it's still classified documents, ads

22:53

are brought in, participating in a

22:55

scheme to buy only overturn election

22:57

so we're really greedy on a

22:59

criminal curve here. But there are

23:01

a swath of voters who. Are

23:04

deeply uncomfortable. they keep Patel he pulsars

23:06

and poll after poll after poll. Deeply

23:08

uncomfortable with sending. A convicted

23:11

felon. To The White House. And

23:14

it doesn't mean they're all going to end up

23:16

and your veins camp. This mean they're all going

23:18

to decide today the next time they cone personally

23:20

calls and as part of his fault they're going

23:22

to tell him that are for Joe Biden. But

23:24

it means that there is an opening with the

23:27

set of voters and Cnn. Ah, last month in

23:29

a poll focused in on the Twenty Five pursue

23:31

their forty five percent of Trump voters who will

23:33

who said that he would reconsider their support as

23:35

he were convicted of a crime. That.

23:38

That quarter of from Zola vote. Is

23:41

younger than the average Trump voter. It's

23:43

more diverse than the average Trump voter

23:45

more likely to believe the election was

23:47

biologically won the election. So these these

23:49

are voters. who? many of them I

23:51

would guess of the same voters were

23:53

seeing the swing states he works currently

23:55

say they're voting for. Donald. Trump

23:57

and Ruben guy going down from Buckley seats and

23:59

so. That these are very get a Bowl

24:01

voters for Joe Biden and. A

24:04

conviction is an argument to make for those voters

24:06

and so was going to take time and energy

24:08

and effort as I can happen overnight. But if

24:10

this can really be a big deal and in

24:12

up with a certain set of voters his that

24:14

is more them big enough to decide the election.

24:17

The. Certain set of voters the don't like

24:19

criminals in the White House or just

24:21

says that this is my mother said

24:23

was linger my waiver the third of

24:25

the Labour voter snowmen you mention me,

24:27

I'm there's the there was a new

24:29

Npr Pbs Marist poll. Marist Poll sucks

24:31

is a very high quality pulsar and

24:33

they found that you know seventy five

24:35

percent of registered voters. Something more than

24:37

seventy five percent of registered voters said

24:39

that the verdict would not impact their

24:41

vote choice at all. but I get

24:43

into some other polls like that they're

24:46

being say I'll replace i gotta. Say is

24:48

He called me if I was taken the

24:50

pole and he said would a verdict impact

24:52

your vote? I would say no because I've

24:54

already decided that I'm never going to vote

24:56

for Donald Trump for anything ever assists the

24:58

workers I live. Of course there's gonna be

25:00

a huge percentage of people who say that

25:02

it's not gonna impact their vote because most

25:04

people have decided already. Be fussy, will know

25:06

Donald Trump and know Joe Biden and have

25:08

experience both of them now for the last

25:10

eight years, and you know they made up

25:12

their minds. So you're right, it's always going

25:14

to be about the voters who either haven't

25:16

made up their minds yet. Or have

25:18

made up their minds, but are like open

25:20

to changing their minds right? Which we know

25:22

is like, I don't know Any were up

25:24

to twenty five percent of the the electorate.

25:26

Probably see if you believe a lot of

25:28

these polls, but again, we don't know because

25:30

it's early now You said, We obviously have

25:32

a lot of work to do to make

25:34

that argument. How do you think. Democrats.

25:38

Joe. Biden. his campaign should handle

25:40

this going forward, because that's that's

25:42

the big question, Because we know

25:44

it's going to. You. Know

25:46

dominate news coverage for. I.

25:49

hope the weekend at least for

25:51

for twenty fifth month thursday but

25:53

everyone like you know that the

25:55

news moves on fast these days

25:57

no one remembers anything like how

26:00

How do Democrats and Biden keep this

26:02

in the news and really brand Donald

26:04

Trump as a convicted felon, which he

26:06

is? You have to call him

26:08

the convicted felon over and over

26:10

and over again. It has to be, it's

26:12

basically should be at the end of every

26:14

sentence that involves Donald Trump. Donald

26:17

Trump, a convicted felon, wants to cut your

26:19

social security and ban abortion nationwide. You

26:21

have to say it. And there's two reasons

26:24

to say it. I am generally skeptical of

26:26

the idea that we

26:28

should do, Democrats should do their messaging as a

26:30

way to just trigger Trump into reacting. I find

26:32

that to be overly

26:35

trolly, I would think, and not particularly effective as swing

26:37

voters. But in this case,

26:39

yeah, if he, this will cause him to react

26:42

and that is fine, but we just have, voters

26:44

have to know the easy convicted felon. And polls

26:46

are showing that more and more people are

26:48

paying attention to this trial as it has gone on. This

26:51

is, people will know about the verdict and hear about the

26:53

verdict, but we're still going to have to keep talking to

26:55

him about it because the voters we need the most, that

26:57

swath of voters are willing to change their minds, are

26:59

the ones we see over and over again in polls

27:02

who engage with politics at least, who consume the news

27:04

at least, who talk about politics at least. And

27:06

so this is going to be a process with

27:08

that. The second thing, I think is critically important

27:11

is to remind people that

27:13

this was, this is not the Biden administration

27:16

or the deep state or anything like that.

27:18

This was a jury of Donald Trump's

27:20

peers that was selected with input from

27:23

Donald Trump's attorneys. They

27:25

are the ones who rendered this verdict. Yep.

27:28

And I think that is critically important because trust in institutions

27:30

is way down across the place, but people still believe in

27:32

juries. And we have to remind people that this was a

27:34

decision from a jury. Yes. No, I

27:36

totally agree. Now, there was a report

27:39

last week that maybe Biden was going to speak

27:41

about this when it happened.

27:44

That has obviously not happened. I

27:46

guess he's currently at Rehoboth Beach.

27:48

He probably saw this on television

27:50

at Rehoboth with his family, like

27:53

all the rest of us did, just watching it on TV. I

27:56

wonder what he will say or what he

27:58

should say in the... They have

28:00

to come. It seems like the White

28:02

House or the Campaign intimated that you

28:04

know he would. He would speak in

28:06

an informal setting about it, probably when

28:08

asked. By. A reporter. I think the

28:10

big question then is what happens in the debate

28:13

and like if you're in debate prep with Joe

28:15

Biden over the next couple weeks, how do you

28:17

handle this? Because my instinct is that Joe Biden

28:19

has to talk about this guy and he has

28:21

to be as decide what the right way. Basically.

28:24

Just how you set it right. It's a

28:26

jury of his peers again. D O J.

28:29

Bidens. Own Justice Department declined to prosecute

28:31

the start. I could have prosecuted the

28:33

federal charge your they did not or

28:35

even though they did or prosecute Michael

28:37

Cohen and got a guilty plea from

28:39

him so he had literally nothing to

28:42

do with the Bethesda ministration. This is

28:44

a decision by Alvin Brags and of

28:46

course Trump's defense. Whereas, like you said,

28:48

had input into the jury and everything.

28:50

So how how do you think that

28:52

Biden said talk about it and how

28:54

much about and talk about it. I

28:57

think it should be he should talk about it

28:59

ends high leverage moments as he be printed a

29:01

debate. For. Sure he should bring it up

29:03

in the debate is to talk about the debates. I.

29:05

Think he should explain why it is the should

29:08

use the bully pulpit right? that he has to

29:10

try to explain what it is Trump as guilty

29:12

of right in that I think this is where

29:14

election interference is really important. The

29:16

fact that he's he foresaw these visits reference

29:18

not simply just to hide personal misconduct

29:20

or to hide in a fair, he

29:22

did it. Trick.

29:25

Voters right to lie to the public's right

29:27

to that It he committed a spear he

29:29

perpetuated of fraud on the public in order

29:31

to gain power. And that is a way

29:33

to tell a broader story about how Trump

29:35

does everything. yeah and

29:37

i think because someone ask me why this

29:40

is big deal who had really been paying

29:42

attention i would say what he used he

29:44

used his money he did what he always

29:46

does which is he used his money and

29:48

influence to hide the truth from the american

29:50

people and i think one of the prosecutors

29:52

made this point during the trial but they

29:54

said in else is it a big deal

29:56

that donald trump had an affair with a

29:58

porn star ten years ago I

30:00

don't know, but that was for the voters to decide. And

30:03

what he did is he broke the law so that

30:05

they wouldn't have that choice. He took that choice away

30:07

from them and he made it with, you

30:10

know, he made these choices with David Packer and

30:12

Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels lawyers and everything like

30:14

that. And then he hid it from people because

30:17

he thinks that the rules don't apply to him.

30:19

And he only cares about himself. And

30:22

so just like he tried to overturn the election that

30:24

he lost, he cheated on the election that he won

30:26

because he thought that the Access Hollywood tape was going

30:28

to end the campaign. And then if this came out

30:30

to who knows, maybe he could have lost the election.

30:32

We don't know that. But again, he

30:34

took that choice away from the American people.

30:36

He tried to hide the truth from the

30:38

American people because he's rich, because he has

30:40

influence, because he's well connected. And that is

30:42

how he got that is how he's governed

30:44

as president. That's how he would govern again.

30:46

He doesn't give a shit about anyone but

30:48

himself. He will screw anyone over, even his

30:50

supporters, even the people who are loyal to

30:52

him. He does not care because he is

30:54

only in it for himself. And

30:56

right now, he is running for

30:58

president again so that he can

31:00

escape the legal consequences that were

31:02

already rendered by a jury of his

31:04

peers. The other important language here,

31:06

and I've seen this polled, we've had many opportunities

31:08

to look at polling over various Trump crimes over

31:11

the last couple of years here, but

31:13

is the point that no one in America,

31:15

no one is above the law, not even

31:17

a former president. Yeah. I

31:20

think that's just, that's a very, that's, I think it's how Biden should talk about

31:22

it. I

31:24

think that's the way to explain it. So

31:26

what do you think the Trump campaign does

31:29

to try to mitigate the potential damage

31:31

here? We've already seen, like

31:33

I said, they are fundraising. They are saying

31:36

that, you know, we've

31:38

raised more money in the last, you know, our

31:40

sites crashed because so many people are donating. They're

31:42

already doing that. They're, of course,

31:45

trying to delegitimize the verdict in

31:47

the minds of the American people, not just

31:50

from the Trump campaign, but from

31:52

like nearly every elected Republican probably.

31:55

So they're going to pull that. They're going to try

31:57

to delegitimize the verdict. And then what

31:59

else do you think? they're gonna do here. Yeah, I

32:01

think the primary thing is

32:03

to maximize it for fundraising and organizing

32:05

purposes. We saw the preview in this

32:07

and that much discussed

32:09

New York Times story about Donald Trump's

32:11

outlaw image. This the, you

32:13

know, don't forget, these are the

32:15

people who raised millions of dollars off of his mugshot

32:18

by putting it on t-shirts. The only tweet Donald Trump

32:20

has sent since January 6th, 2021 was the mugshot. I

32:25

think, and the second thing is,

32:28

they were prepared for this, right? The

32:31

statements from Governor Reynolds, Mike

32:33

Johnson, just Republican politicians all across the spectrum

32:35

had statements in the can to put out

32:37

as soon as the verdict came in to

32:39

show that the party was gonna stick with

32:41

Trump. And it's also why Chris Lassavita probably

32:44

foolishly went after Larry Hogan for speaking

32:47

out, which is to use blunt

32:49

force and fear to show every Republican you

32:51

stay in line or you pay a price.

32:53

Now, this is probably good politics for Larry

32:55

Hogan to be honest, but for everyone else,

32:57

you see why you're gonna, you're either gonna

32:59

say something supportive or you're gonna keep your

33:01

trap shut. And then it is to turn

33:04

on the fire hose of propaganda and disinformation

33:06

to muddy the waters here, right? To make

33:08

it seem like this is, it's

33:10

rigged. It's the Biden Department of

33:13

Justice as a corrupt judge. Other

33:15

people, you know, we'll see this in the sentencing.

33:17

There'll be other, you know, other people who've committed,

33:20

who've done similar things, haven't gotten sentenced, haven't gotten

33:22

charged. And it's just, it is a fire hose

33:24

of disinformation and propaganda. And that has been

33:27

known in the past to provide

33:30

just enough cover for Trump to avoid

33:34

full account, political accountability for some of these

33:36

things. Because there are a bunch of voters

33:38

who are, don't really love Donald Trump, aren't

33:41

really happy with the way things are going. They're angry at Biden

33:43

for whatever reason, for high prices, and they're looking for permission to

33:45

stick with Trump. And he's trying to give them that permission. He

33:47

doesn't have to do it for a lot of voters. It's just,

33:50

you know, 50.1% of that swath of voters that

33:54

we were just talking about keep him in his camp to win this whole

33:56

thing. Yeah, and I do think

33:59

like the... the best retort

34:01

from Democrats is like

34:03

thousands of people have

34:05

gone to jail for this

34:08

very offense, right? This case,

34:10

these felony charges are prosecuted in New York

34:12

all the time in the first degree, much

34:14

like it was for Donald Trump. So why

34:17

does Donald Trump get off and not

34:19

them? Why should the law not apply?

34:21

It's like what you were saying about no one's above the law.

34:24

Why should the law not apply to Donald Trump? It's

34:26

because he's a rich guy running for president

34:28

and all the other people who are found

34:30

guilty of falsifying records, business records in the

34:32

first degree, like they should go to jail,

34:34

they should be punished, but Donald Trump shouldn't

34:37

when he was convicted by a jury of his peers

34:39

who had nothing to do with the Biden

34:42

administration or the prosecutor or all that bullshit.

34:44

And by the way, he's got a whole

34:46

bunch of other felony charges. And the only

34:48

reason he's not sitting in a courtroom in

34:50

Florida right now is because the judge that

34:52

he appointed is slow walking the

34:54

case. And the only reason that he's not

34:56

sitting in a courtroom in DC right now

34:58

is because the Supreme Court majority that he

35:00

created is delaying the case. So

35:03

like, let's not pretend this was some political

35:05

vendetta to just get Donald Trump when Donald

35:07

Trump has been treated more

35:09

fairly than most people on trial and

35:12

also has been using his connections and

35:14

his influence to evade the law in

35:16

a whole bunch of other cases. Right.

35:19

And let's not pretend like this is

35:21

an isolated incident on a otherwise unblemished

35:23

record of civic participation in innocence, right?

35:27

I mean, he's already in the last year. I

35:29

mean, he's been convicted of a found guilty

35:31

of a massive perpetuating a massive fraud on

35:33

the state of New York. He has been

35:36

involved defamation. He's been a declared

35:38

some guilty of sexual assault by a court.

35:40

He we all watched him try to steal

35:43

the election. He tried to have his vice

35:45

president hung what on the television. He was

35:47

impeached twice. He was

35:49

impeached twice. Everyone who like no

35:51

one should be fucking sheepish about this. I

35:53

mean, it's ridiculous. Like we were all there

35:55

on January 6th. We all saw the month

35:58

leading up to it. What are we doing here?

36:00

people. It's ridiculous. Anyway,

36:02

okay, that made me feel better. When

36:05

we come back, we will be talking

36:07

to strict scrutiny's Melissa Murray about the

36:09

verdict and what comes next. Don

36:30

Expedia made to travel. I'm

37:02

Indian American, emphasis on

37:04

American. And for most of

37:06

my life, understanding the country my family came from

37:08

was low on my to-do list. That

37:11

was until I began following a mystery. The

37:14

story centered around a suspicious death. In

37:17

December of 2014, Judge Bridge Kapalaloy

37:19

had died at a wedding in Nagpur, India

37:21

of a heart attack. But

37:23

when his niece approached a journalist two

37:25

years later, she shared a different narrative

37:28

that the circumstances around Judge Bridge

37:30

Kapalaloy's death made his family doubt

37:32

the official story. I'm Ravi Gupta,

37:34

host of Killing Justice, the newest podcast

37:37

from crooked media and the branch. And

37:39

throughout the show, I examine the reporting,

37:41

legal fallout and conflicting evidence that unfurl

37:44

from this tip. Killing

37:46

Justice isn't just about one man's mysterious

37:49

death. It's about the battle for

37:51

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crooked.com/friends. All

38:13

right, with us to dig in a little more

38:15

into the verdict and what's next, we

38:17

have our friend Melissa Murray, co-host

38:20

of Strict Scrutiny. Melissa, welcome

38:22

back. Thanks for having me.

38:24

I feel like I've been here twice in two days.

38:26

I think that's exactly right. Like

38:28

I've gone nowhere. I feel like I

38:30

just finished hearing you talk to Tommy about this. So, first

38:33

thoughts on the verdict. Well, in the

38:35

words of the immortal Stormy Daniels, that

38:37

was fast. Good stuff.

38:43

Good stuff. So this morning, I'm

38:45

going to LA tomorrow and

38:48

I was like, you know, it's gonna suck because this verdict's

38:50

gonna come out on Friday. Because once they

38:53

started asking, once the jury started asking

38:55

for information about the meeting between Pecker

38:57

and Cohen and whatnot and

39:00

more information about sort of the conspiracy aspects of

39:02

this, I was like, oh, they're really digging in

39:04

and they're looking for the

39:07

links that bring Trump into this. So

39:09

they're already at the main stuff. And

39:12

I was figuring like, if they were already asking for

39:14

that kind of stuff and were reviewing that, they

39:16

weren't going to go beyond this weekend. I

39:18

mean, they've already lost one Memorial Day

39:21

weekend like having to be on the

39:23

story. I mean, they didn't have to

39:25

deliberate over Memorial Day, obviously. But

39:27

they want their lives back. And I just

39:29

figured by Friday, this would be over. I

39:32

wasn't expecting it to be today. That

39:35

was actually much more surprising. So

39:37

the fact that they came in at around 4.30 and

39:40

that it's unanimous on all of the

39:42

counts, like, you know, amazing.

39:44

And big props

39:46

to the people of New York and

39:49

to the Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg,

39:51

who in April 2023, lots of people, including

39:55

former folks from the DA's office,

39:57

like Mark Pomerantz, were really questioning.

40:00

judgment about bringing this case as opposed to

40:02

something more sweeping, but he seemed to have

40:04

figured out the sweet spot and he got

40:06

a conviction on all of those counts. Do

40:09

you think this was a winnable case that

40:11

the defense lost and Trump

40:13

lost because he probably made his defense

40:16

lawyers do all kinds of things that

40:18

they wouldn't have argued maybe if Trump

40:20

wasn't their client? A

40:22

hundred percent. This is

40:24

a white guy with resources and

40:27

three relatively good lawyers, one very

40:29

excellent criminal defense lawyer who apparently

40:31

got sidelined. We

40:33

don't exactly know why. I speculate it's perhaps because

40:36

she has a uterus. But

40:38

Susan Neckless, who is one of the defense lawyers,

40:40

is a very good lawyer and it wasn't clear

40:43

that she was always on the same team as

40:45

her client. And the other lawyers are a couple

40:47

of times where submissions were made to the court

40:49

and she refused to sign them. And

40:52

one might speculate she refused to do so

40:54

because she would like to continue practicing in

40:56

the jurisdiction with the reputation she now

40:58

enjoys. But he

41:00

seemed really attached to Todd Blanche and

41:03

Emil Bove, Bove, I'm not actually sure

41:05

how you say it. But

41:08

Todd Blanche is not really

41:10

a defense lawyer. He's a former prosecutor. He's

41:12

a very experienced prosecutor, but he doesn't have

41:14

a lot of experience doing criminal

41:17

defense cases. And I

41:19

do think this was a winnable case, but maybe not

41:21

by him. So the

41:24

defendant always has the easier time of

41:26

it, especially a white defendant with lots

41:28

of resources because the government has such

41:31

a huge burden to bear. They have

41:33

to prove the defendant's guilt on every

41:35

count beyond a reasonable doubt. That's very,

41:38

very hard. And all the defense has

41:40

to do is say they

41:42

didn't do that. They actually don't have to put

41:44

on any defense at all. And indeed, they really

41:46

didn't here. But what they do have to do

41:49

is offer a counter

41:51

narrative to the prosecution. Here,

41:53

the prosecution crafted this

41:55

narrative that didn't depend on

41:58

Michael Cohen. It depended on those.

42:00

documents which don't lie, which are

42:02

irrefutable. And Michael Cohen

42:04

and all of the other

42:06

witnesses were merely corroboration for

42:08

the documents and the defense

42:10

never really put up a

42:12

counter narrative that could go

42:15

toe to toe with the narrative those

42:17

documents created. So sentencing is

42:19

July 11th. What happens between now

42:21

and then? Is it the idea

42:24

that the judge just on

42:26

July 11th unveils what he believes the

42:28

sentence to be or their arguments and motions in between? So

42:31

there's going to be stuff in between. One of

42:33

the big things that happens is, you know, Donald

42:35

Trump's going to have to come back down to

42:38

downtown Manhattan and go to another part of

42:40

the courtroom building. And if he thought the courtroom was

42:42

shitty, he's going to love this part. He's

42:44

going to be taken to the probation department

42:46

where he's going to be interviewed

42:48

and he's going to be asked about his criminal history.

42:50

He doesn't have one. So that'll go pretty quickly. He'll

42:52

be asked about his health, all kinds of things. And

42:55

all of that information will be compiled

42:57

by a probation officer into what is

43:00

known as a pre-sentencing report. And that

43:02

pre-sentencing report will go to Judge Marchon

43:04

who will use it as he thinks

43:06

about what the appropriate sentence is. And

43:08

so, you know, things that are considered

43:11

are the defendant's past criminal history if

43:13

there is one, whether or not the

43:15

defendant is likely to be a recidivist and do

43:17

this again, all things of that

43:19

nature. And so that can take some

43:21

time to compile the PSR, you know, a

43:23

couple of weeks. I think

43:26

the July 11th sentencing date

43:28

is probably a little ambitious, like this

43:30

is likely to be appealed. And there

43:32

may be questions about whether Judge Marchon

43:34

is willing to impose

43:37

a sentence while those appeals are

43:39

pending. He could decide to just

43:41

sort of put everything on pause

43:43

until the appeals are decided. It could be

43:45

the case that he is

43:47

more reluctant to sentence in view of

43:49

the coming election cycle. I mean, if

43:52

the sentence, and I think it's more likely that it's

43:54

something like probation as opposed to

43:56

incarceration, if he's on

43:58

probation, it's going to be very hard for Donald

44:00

Trump to fly around the country doing

44:03

campaign events. It

44:05

is a cramp in your style necessarily

44:08

to be a convicted felon and be

44:10

under a criminal sentence. Hard

44:12

to say when that's actually going to happen, but there

44:14

are a lot of interim steps between what

44:17

we just saw in the courtroom and

44:19

what will happen in the courtroom again

44:21

when he's sentenced. I

44:23

want to ask about the sentence because I

44:25

know on Wednesday's pod with Tommy, you were

44:28

a little more skeptical that he

44:30

might actually serve jail time. I'm

44:32

still skeptical. Still skeptical. Can

44:35

you talk about why we just have to normize

44:37

in and Norm thinks that jail is, he's not

44:39

sure about jail, but he thinks jail is on

44:41

the table. What makes you think that

44:43

they just won't, that the judge will

44:45

be reluctant to do this? Jail's

44:49

obviously on the table. Lots of

44:51

things are on the table. Probation,

44:53

house arrest, I think the reason

44:55

for me that jail and

44:57

incarceration seems unlikely, and again, I'm

44:59

totally happy to be wrong on this. This

45:01

is not like having a fight with my husband

45:03

where I have to be right. I'm happy to

45:05

be wrong. But the reason why

45:08

I think jail is less likely here is

45:10

because we've already seen Judge

45:12

Merton really come up

45:14

close to the question of whether or

45:16

not Trump should have some kind of

45:19

incarcerative sanction for violating the gag

45:21

order. Judge Merton himself said, I'm

45:24

really loathe to put you in jail. You

45:27

are a former president. You may be a

45:29

future president. I'm really loathe to do that.

45:32

None of that has changed. He's still

45:34

a former president. He may be the

45:36

future president. I think given

45:39

the nature of the

45:41

offenses, the fact that he has

45:44

no recorded criminal history, it's just,

45:46

I think, a lot easier to sentence him

45:48

to some kind of alternative sanction, whether it

45:51

is house arrest or probation, as opposed to

45:53

throwing him in Rikers. And

45:55

to be clear, if he went to Rikers, he's not

45:57

having the Same Rikers experience.

46:00

The and as like see the Central

46:02

Park Five now the. Exonerated Fives. I

46:04

mean, he's getting a very different

46:06

experience. You. Mentioned the appeals process

46:08

comes to to take us through what

46:10

that might look like and how long

46:12

that my taken and where it goes

46:15

and and what are the the courts

46:17

that might end up hearing that hurts.

46:19

So I believe that a sense has I

46:21

think out and I read just look the

46:23

sap am I want say it's like sixty

46:25

days to file an appeal and may maybe

46:27

longer and they have some period of time

46:29

and let's say ten present in a p

46:32

on the appeal. Could. Be

46:34

to all kinds of things. So

46:36

I'm here. They could appeal various

46:38

decisions that were made and the

46:40

course of the trial on the

46:43

view that any one of those

46:45

decisions reflected a clear error that

46:47

was prejudice soul to the defendant.

46:49

Over the course of the trial. On

46:52

else to nice. The most obvious

46:54

appealable issue is the big strapping

46:57

of the charges saddened the idea

46:59

that these some publication of business

47:01

records charges were in most cases

47:04

misdemeanor offense is that when they

47:06

are done in furtherance of or

47:08

and the concealment of other crimes

47:11

they then become celanese. And it's

47:13

not really clear. A

47:15

Whether you can have the other

47:17

crime be a federal crime and

47:19

that was one of the. Universe

47:22

of crimes that the prosecution

47:24

had identified. I'm a federal campaign

47:26

law that was violated, and they also

47:28

identified state level tax laws as well

47:30

as state level election laws. But that

47:32

could be an appeal was an influx

47:34

of bootstrap. I think they're all sorts

47:36

of ways in which that might. Play Out

47:38

actually thought it was going to be a bigger issue at the trial

47:40

and it turned out not to be, but I think it could be

47:42

a very big issue on appeal. And

47:44

to the is there a possibility that so

47:46

that is too soon appeals court would go

47:48

to the like. The State Supreme Court of

47:50

New York path in New York way to

47:53

Look which is interestingly called an and Judge

47:55

More Time is actually on the New York

47:57

Supreme Court. The Supreme Court New York is

47:59

the trial level. Court, the Intermediate Appellate Court

48:01

is known as the Appellate Division, that would

48:03

be the next step. And then after that

48:06

is the Court of Last Resort in New York State, and

48:08

that is the Court of Appeals. And

48:10

there's no way this could go to the Supreme Court, right? Or

48:12

could it? It could. I

48:14

mean, like, you know, if he petitioned for

48:16

sort of post-conviction federal habeas relief, that could

48:18

then be swapped over to the federal courts,

48:21

and then the U.S. District Court, and Intermediate

48:23

Appellate Court, and then on to the Supreme Court.

48:25

I mean, there are lots of different permutations that

48:27

this could take. Yes, it could go to the

48:29

Supreme Court. And of course,

48:32

the Supreme Court is already fat

48:34

on a diet of Trump-related cases, so it

48:36

will be of no moment to

48:39

them. But if Trump were to—Norm

48:41

hinted at this, but if Trump were to win

48:43

the election, then there would be a whole array

48:46

of constitutional issues that would be at this point.

48:48

Can you just talk briefly about what those questions

48:50

would be? So if he wins the

48:52

election, and like, I

48:54

feel creepy and gross saying that, so, you

48:57

know, federal disclosure, I'm not trying to manifest

48:59

something. If he

49:01

does win, then we have

49:03

the sort of unprecedented circumstance

49:07

of a president-elect who has been convicted in

49:09

a state of crime. So there are certain

49:11

things that won't be able to happen, so

49:13

he's not going to be able to pardon

49:15

himself because these are state-level charges. So he's

49:17

not going to be able to sort of

49:19

wipe this conviction away, as he could if

49:21

he won and he had been subject to

49:23

a federal conviction. But there

49:25

are questions about whether or not a

49:28

sitting president can serve a sanction

49:32

for state-level criminal convictions. I mean, like, we've

49:34

never had that sort of situation. Like, maybe

49:36

it's something that the Supreme Court has to

49:39

get involved in eventually and determine like, you

49:41

know, maybe it's something that gets deferred until

49:43

after his term of office. Like,

49:45

you'll recall when Bill Clinton had the whole

49:47

issue with Paula Jones in the civil case,

49:50

one of the things he argued is like,

49:52

I can't go be a defendant in a

49:54

civil lawsuit because I'm president of the United

49:56

States, even though this lawsuit's not related to what

49:58

I've done in the context of the Supreme Court. of my

50:00

job, it's when I was governor, but it's

50:02

just too much stuff for me to deal

50:04

with while I'm presidenting. I

50:06

think there's a fair argument to be made

50:08

that you can't be on house arrest when

50:10

you are president of the United States, even

50:13

if the house is the White

50:15

House. There are certain constraints around

50:17

the job of being president that

50:19

are incompatible with serving a criminal

50:21

sentence. And again,

50:23

these are questions of first impression

50:26

for constitutional law because, weirdly, our

50:29

originalist forefathers never imagined that

50:31

someone that we might elect to

50:34

the highest office in the land

50:36

would be someone who had a rap sheet.

50:39

So we are truly

50:41

in the upside down. We should

50:43

fly a flag. I was just about

50:46

to ask before you went, which flag

50:48

do you think is flying outside the

50:50

Alito home this evening? Is

50:53

there a flag for this? Well,

50:56

according to Justice Alito, Mrs. Alito

50:59

has a flag for almost everything,

51:01

for veterans, for holidays, for sports

51:03

teams, the Phillies, all of it.

51:05

So I'm sure she has in

51:08

her arsenal a flag, a flag

51:10

for when your preferred presidential candidate

51:12

is credibly convicted by a jury

51:14

of his peers on 34 counts.

51:18

So I don't know what that would

51:20

be. I'm not a flag aficionado, but

51:23

I'm sure she has the right flag

51:25

for the moment. And since it is

51:28

her house that she jointly owns with him, I

51:30

know that he won't be able to stop her

51:32

from doing it because she has rights, which he,

51:34

as her husband, honors and

51:36

respects her choices. Right. Justice

51:38

Alito would never tell a woman what to do. Never.

51:41

Never? He's a feminist.

51:43

I think we saw that from the letter. That letter

51:46

was like, it was almost as though Germaine Greer or

51:48

Susan Sontag had written that letter. So

51:51

feminist. A feminist, just like Donald Trump, as we learned in

51:53

this trial. Melissa

51:55

Murray, thank you as always for joining and

51:57

spending time with us on POD Save America.

52:00

America all week long. Thanks for having me. Have fun out

52:02

here in Los Angeles. Oh, I will. I'm

52:04

going to see the Sarah McLaughlin concert at the

52:06

Hollywood Bowl. Amazing. Great

52:09

spot to see

52:11

a concert. I'm

52:14

ready. All right,

52:16

before we go, two quick housekeeping notes. The

52:19

first is, you know, we agree with Joe Biden

52:21

that we still have to beat Donald Trump at

52:23

the ballot box, which is why

52:25

even though we're very excited today, everyone's

52:28

going to work very hard over the

52:30

next five months to make sure that a convicted

52:32

felon is not elected president of the United States.

52:35

That's what Vote Save America is for.

52:37

If you haven't signed up, go to

52:39

votesaveamerica.com/2024. You can sign up.

52:42

The folks at VSA will give you all kinds of work

52:44

to do. You can donate money.

52:46

You can do volunteer shifts all over the

52:48

country. You can join Team East or Team

52:50

West. It's a fun competition. Anyway, go to

52:52

VSA and check it out. Also, just in

52:54

time for June, the Crooked store has launched

52:57

our Pride or Else collection. It includes designs

52:59

for everyone, whether you're leading the parade or

53:01

showing up as an ally. The

53:03

collection also includes fresh versions of our

53:05

best-selling, leave trans kids alone, you absolute

53:07

freak smirk. That's evergreen,

53:09

unfortunately. Most importantly, a portion of

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proceeds from every order. Go to Crooked's

53:14

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organizations working to provide gender-affirming care and

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53:20

across America. Visit Crooked

53:23

for Pride at crooked.com/store. All

53:26

right, everyone. Have a fantastic weekend.

53:29

Have a few extra margaritas. I was going to

53:31

say, margaritas. If there

53:34

isn't a margarita glass in the Crooked store by the end

53:36

of next week, I don't know what you guys are doing.

53:39

Can you believe, Dan, that

53:41

John Lovett is not here

53:44

for this verdict for this day? Of

53:46

all the years we have dealt with

53:49

Donald Trump. He

53:51

just... Oh, man. He... That

53:54

is just a... It's

53:57

a small thing for today, but it's just a

53:59

real funny footnote. I would say I

54:01

think often about what happens when he first

54:03

gets access to the internet when this is

54:05

all over. I know. Well, this is all

54:08

we gotta talk about this because there's a couple different

54:10

shows he's got to do here. He's got to explain himself

54:12

to me and Max for offline. He's got to come

54:14

on Pod Save America and we got to like quiz him

54:16

about the news. I don't know. He's got to go

54:18

on Keep It, I guess. Talk

54:21

about this season of Survivor when he's legally allowed,

54:24

I guess. I don't know. Unbelievable.

54:27

Actually, you know what? Seems kind of like Justice. It

54:29

is. Yeah, it is. Finally,

54:32

two people who have evaded accountability their

54:34

whole lives. Here's

54:36

hoping that John Lovett had better luck

54:38

at the Tribal Council than Donald Trump

54:40

did in Manhattan. Bye,

54:42

everyone. Thanks

54:59

for watching. Matt

55:30

DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is

55:32

our executive assistant. Thanks to

55:34

our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones,

55:36

Mia Kelman, David Tolz, Kirill Pel Aviv

55:39

and Molly Lobel. There

55:49

are a lot of issues on voters' minds

55:51

right now. Six big ones could help decide

55:53

the election. Guns, reproductive rights, immigration, the economy,

55:56

health care and the war overseas. On the

55:58

Consider This podcast from NPR, they... unpack

56:00

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