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Trump can't leave the courtroom so just to rub it

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in a little, Pots of America is going on tour.

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He's probably asleep right now, but if

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so, so jealous. The Democracy Rails tour

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begins in Brooklyn on June 26th followed

1:01

by Boston on June 28th. Then

1:03

we go to Madison, Phoenix, Ann Arbor, and Philly.

1:06

See all the tour dates and get

1:08

your tickets now at crooked.com/events. Welcome

1:33

to Pots of America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. I am

1:35

a D-su Demissi. D-su, welcome. Look at us. We

1:38

are in the studio. No John, no Love

1:40

It, no Tommy. We have taken over. We've

1:43

taken over. The Bay Area has invaded Los

1:45

Angeles. That's right. That's right. Okay. On

1:48

today's show, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris hit back at

1:50

Donald Trump for posting a video that uses Nazi language.

1:52

Trump refuses to say whether he'll limit access to contraception if

1:55

he wins. Manhattan Hush Money trial heads

1:57

to a jury next week and some yahoos

1:59

are still arguing arguing that the whole thing might help

2:01

him. And our longtime

2:03

friends, Brian Wallach, Sandra Abravaya, and Katie

2:05

Couric, stop by to talk with John

2:07

about their incredibly powerful new documentary about

2:09

Brian's ALS diagnosis and how Brian

2:11

and Sandra decide to turn that crisis into an opportunity

2:13

to push for a cure. You really won't want to

2:16

miss this interview. It's incredibly powerful. Amazing folks. God

2:18

bless them. But first, on Monday,

2:21

Donald Trump, a periodic dining companion of no

2:23

Nazis, posted a video to his Truth Social

2:25

account that used fake newspaper articles in the

2:27

background. One of those articles was the

2:29

headline, What's Next for America? Under

2:31

that phrase was creation of a unified

2:34

Reich. Everyone quite rightly freaked

2:36

out about this and the Trump campaign finally took it down

2:38

after about 18 hours. The

2:40

Biden campaign obviously saw an opening because both Joe

2:42

Biden and Kamala Harris immediately went on the attack.

2:44

Let's take a listen. What's next

2:46

for America? Is this

2:49

not his official account? Wow. A

2:51

unified Reich? That's Hitler's language.

2:53

That's not America's. He cares about holding on

2:56

to power. I care about you. Just

2:59

yesterday, the former

3:01

president of the United States, who

3:04

praises dictators, who said

3:06

there were very fine people on

3:09

both sides in Charlottesville, took

3:11

to social media and

3:14

highlighted language from Nazi Germany.

3:17

This kind of rhetoric is

3:20

unsurprising coming from

3:22

the former president and it is

3:24

appalling. The Trump campaign

3:26

blamed a staffer who they claimed hadn't

3:28

actually seen the Reich language. The video

3:30

also appears to use stock

3:32

footage that includes this language. However,

3:35

this is just the most recent example

3:37

of Trump playing fussy with Nazi language.

3:39

Here's a quick reminder. They're poisoning the

3:41

blood of our country. That's what they've

3:43

done. They poisoned mental institutions. But

3:46

you also had people that were very

3:49

fine people on both sides. Many

3:52

Jewish people that vote for a

3:54

Democrat, I

3:56

think it shows either a total lack of

3:58

knowledge or great disloyalty. Isn't that anti-Semitic?

4:01

No, no, no, it's only in

4:03

your head. It's only anti-Semitic in

4:05

your head. Even

4:07

these spoiled, rich Jewish guys, they

4:10

can't believe how good this is, you know? Now

4:12

you'll notice that Trump never accidentally posts

4:14

a video that has language like universal

4:16

healthcare or stumbles into saying something like

4:18

democracy is good. Exactly, Nazi stuff. Yeah,

4:20

or diversity. The blame the intern strategy,

4:23

really. I mean, I thought it's 20,

4:25

24 guys. It's a classic of the

4:27

genre. Yeah, seriously. And I've

4:29

read a thousand times about how more disciplined

4:31

and strategic and better staff this Trump campaign

4:33

is than his previous efforts. So

4:35

how the hell does this keep happening? First

4:37

of all, you know, masks

4:40

slip off sometimes, if

4:42

it seems to be one of those times. Look,

4:45

they do not deserve the benefit of the doubt

4:47

on this one. You played all those clips, obviously.

4:49

There have been enough instances of Easter

4:52

eggs and hat tips to right-wing extremists

4:54

that, you know, you didn't play the

4:56

clip from the 2020 debate, the stand

4:58

back and stand by to the Proud

5:00

Boys. I mean, after seven, eight, 10 dozens

5:02

of times this happening, they don't deserve the benefit of

5:04

the doubt. I think that they pulled it down

5:07

is a somewhat rare, honestly, acknowledgment that they

5:09

really fucked this one up. But

5:12

they have run the smarter campaign this time, especially in

5:14

the primary. But you

5:16

know, it's like your crazy ex who claims

5:18

that they, you know, have changed, right? Then

5:20

you see some of the old person come

5:22

out as we get. And I think as

5:24

we get closer to the election and as,

5:27

you know, it gets more stressful for the campaign and

5:29

for Trump himself, you're going to see who he really

5:31

is and who, you know, that mask slip off more

5:33

and more. I mean, we're really grading Trump and his

5:35

campaign on a pretty steep curve, right? I

5:37

mean, the campaign since 16 and 20, even though

5:40

he won in 16, was an absolute shit show.

5:42

And when he was just like filled with grifters who were trying to

5:44

make money off the thing. And this one,

5:47

like, Chris Lassavita and Susie Wiles

5:49

are like real good. Actual good political

5:51

minds, as it were. And the campaign

5:54

seems to have more

5:56

of a strategy. They more adhere

5:58

to a larger. strategic vision

6:00

of how they're going to win. And I

6:02

think they're probably spending money with more discipline than they

6:04

did in the past. Yes. But

6:07

the product is the product, man. Right. That's

6:09

the thing. It's Trump. It hasn't changed

6:11

his Trump. Yeah. And you can

6:14

put lipstick on a pig, you know, whatever, use whatever

6:16

metaphor else you want. Like ultimately, the truth is going

6:18

to come out about him. And he's going to have

6:20

to present himself at the debate on June 27th, many

6:22

times in public,

6:25

unfiltered between now and November 5th.

6:28

And you know, as much as Chris and

6:30

Susie are going to try to cover up who

6:33

he really is, it's going to continue to come out.

6:35

And things like this, he likes, you

6:37

know, stirring the pot like this. And he's doing this on

6:39

purpose to send a message to his right-wing supporters. And we

6:41

just have to call him out on it. And the president

6:43

and the vice president did. What do you

6:45

make of the president and vice president's response? The

6:47

campaign has leaned incredibly hard into this. Mitchell

6:50

Andrew has been out. There have been videos. They put

6:52

out a very lengthy statement. They clearly want this fight.

6:54

What do you think? Why do you think they want

6:56

it? And what do you make of the way they're

6:58

executing that? So I think they want it because the

7:02

more this election is about a choice

7:04

between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, the

7:06

better. And because, you know, this

7:08

is the first time that Donald Trump has

7:10

run as a challenger to incumbent, right? In 2016, it

7:12

was an open seat. In 2020, he was the incumbent.

7:15

So naturally, this election is going to be

7:17

more about the incumbent, Joe Biden, sitting

7:19

there than about Donald Trump. And so what I

7:21

think they're doing is any opportunity that they get

7:23

to remind people who Donald Trump is and that

7:25

he is the alternative

7:28

in this race, as the president always says, don't

7:30

compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the

7:32

alternative. Donald Trump is the alternative. And this was

7:34

an opportunity where they messed up and

7:36

they gave, you know, a small hole

7:38

for the campaign to run through and they're trying to drive

7:40

a truck through it. And so I think it

7:43

makes sense as a strategy. And I think, you know, particularly

7:45

what the president said in that clip that

7:47

was played about, you

7:50

know, he's making this all about himself. He's in

7:52

it for himself, for power for himself. Joe

7:55

Biden is in it for, you know, I care about you. That

7:57

to me is, you know, distills in a lot of ways

7:59

what this election. is needs to be all about to present

8:02

that choice pretty clearly to voters. So it

8:04

makes sense as a strategic matter to jump

8:07

on an opponent's mistake and I think as a tactical

8:09

matter what they're saying is the

8:11

right message to put forward. When

8:13

I first saw the video

8:16

and saw the sort of prue haha

8:18

about it on Monday evening, I

8:20

guess it when I was, my first thought was like,

8:22

this is 2017 all over again. It just felt

8:25

like all we were just doing the same dance we

8:27

have always done that has never really moved the numbers

8:29

in any way, shape or form. It's, Donald

8:32

Trump does something on social media. It was Twitter

8:34

back in the day. We're outraged by it. A bunch

8:37

of folks like myself and other resistance

8:39

people, they tweet about it and then

8:42

cable news goes bananas about it and

8:45

nothing happened. Nothing happens. And

8:48

one of the critiques that has

8:50

existed about how Democrats have handled Trump is we swing

8:52

at every pitch. Now I

8:54

think in this case, this is actually an example

8:56

of how I think the Biden campaign has learned

8:59

some of the lessons of the past because

9:01

look, if your opponent puts out

9:03

a video that says what's next for America

9:06

is a unified right. You have to respond.

9:08

That is a giant fat one across the

9:10

plate. You have to swing. But what they

9:12

did is they swung strategically. And to your

9:14

point, the narrative that Trump

9:17

cares about himself, Biden cares about you,

9:19

that is the ultimate, that

9:21

is their narrative about Trump. That is what they want

9:23

to drive with voters. So they saw an opportunity that

9:25

would have virality, right? Because so

9:28

much of what's happening breaks through to no

9:30

one. And this one may not either, but

9:32

this is the sort of thing that at

9:34

least is controversial enough that there's a chance

9:36

that it jumps from Nicole Wallace's show to

9:39

TikTok, where a normal voter may see it.

9:41

It's clippable in a way and

9:45

has the potential for virality in a way

9:47

that some of the pitches that

9:49

come across the plate don't. And I do

9:51

think that we're probably going to talk more about this, the

9:55

things that remind voters out

9:57

there about Trump's extremism, about

9:59

his the chaos that he brings about

10:01

... It just puts

10:03

the choice in stark relief. Part

10:05

of the challenge for the Biden presidency in

10:07

Biden is that he's been a normal guy

10:09

who's sort of treated the presidency normally, and

10:11

it's caused people to take a step back

10:14

from politics and as swing voters in particular,

10:16

who it still may, they're not necessarily paying

10:18

close attention to the race, as they step

10:20

back into the political arena, the Biden

10:22

campaign and those of us who are supporting the Biden campaign

10:24

need to make sure that we

10:27

remind people about who Donald Trump was because that

10:29

has been memory-holed a bit. Even

10:31

as this is ... It does feel a little more 2017-ish. Like

10:35

2017 in the minds of a

10:37

lot of voters was a long, long time ago and

10:39

it doesn't exist. It was. It

10:41

was seven years ago, right? And it also just ... It's gone,

10:43

right? Charlottesville, things like what the vice president talked about, memory-holed

10:46

for a lot of people. So we are

10:48

reminding people of something that's probably in the back

10:50

of their head and bringing it to the forefront,

10:52

again, to present a choice between Joe Biden, the

10:54

guy who cares about you and is a normal

10:56

guy, and Donald Trump, who is the guy who's in

10:58

it for himself and the KSH. clip,

11:02

is Blueprint Research, a

11:04

Democratic polling and

11:06

messaging firm, looked at ... A lot

11:09

of polling on voters under 30. And one of the things they

11:11

discovered was voters under 30, particularly voters

11:13

under 25, know none

11:15

of the things that we all just could cite off the top of our

11:18

head. Like I was working with our producer, so I was like, can you

11:20

get this clip? Can you get the very fine ... People want ... I

11:22

know ... The greatest

11:24

hits ... I know, yeah, we all know the greatest

11:26

hits. Talking about Nazis. And we have this assumption, and

11:28

it really drives a lot of, I think, the political

11:30

coverage of the campaign, is that everyone knows everything there

11:32

is to know about Donald Trump and Joe Biden, and

11:34

therefore, there is no new information about Donald Trump that

11:36

could move voters. But if you are

11:38

25, you probably

11:41

weren't paying attention to any of this, right? If you

11:43

were 18 years old or 17 years older ... I

11:45

hope when you were 18, you were not watching, you

11:48

know, Don Lemon at night, right? You

11:50

were doing your homework, having fun with friends. And so

11:52

this can be new information. It's a reminder for a

11:54

lot of people, but it can also be new information

11:56

for other voters. The other thing about

11:58

it that's interesting, and we can give them this a little more ... later

12:00

is swing voters,

12:02

persuadable voters are usually engaged with political

12:04

news less than everyone else. But

12:07

the one thing that has changed at this time is

12:11

when they were not fully engaged in previous elections,

12:13

they still had a general sense of what was

12:15

happening because it was kind of

12:17

hard if you paid any attention to news to not just

12:19

understand what was happening, particularly in the Trump years, the Trump

12:21

front and center. Now you were

12:23

either a news

12:25

junkie who knows

12:28

everything or you know nothing. There is very

12:30

little people in the middle who are just

12:32

kind of like they have like one foot

12:34

in political news. Or you're getting it very

12:37

passively on social media. And TikTok primarily. And

12:39

TikTok and Instagram reels and not

12:42

Twitter or X, from

12:44

creators that are, who

12:46

knows what you're talking about. You know, some of the

12:49

stuff we don't even see, the people who are in

12:51

politics don't see but is sometimes

12:53

factually compromised, let's say, or sometimes

12:55

intentionally so from nefarious

12:57

actors. So yeah, it is really interesting

12:59

that you can't like by

13:02

osmosis learn about what's going on in politics, certainly not

13:04

the same way you could 12 years ago in the

13:06

Obama campaign or even eight years ago with Clinton. Or

13:08

even four years ago. Yeah, four years ago, people were

13:10

locked in their house and they were like, you were

13:12

consuming the news because he told you whether you could

13:15

go to work the next week or when to

13:17

get a vaccine. And so you were watching-

13:19

You might have been watching more news. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's when he's

13:21

when he is. I mean, ratings were up because people had to watch

13:23

it for reasons that were not just politics. But

13:26

you were watching politics and you were probably seeing like

13:28

one of his probably great strategic areas in election was

13:30

doing those daily COVID briefings. So if you wanted to

13:32

find out, you know, when schools are going to reopen

13:34

or when to get a shot or not get a

13:37

shot, it was going to be you had to

13:39

see Trump. And now that is now

13:41

no one sees it. That's right. Speaking

13:43

of seeing Trump, here's something voters

13:45

may care even more about than a

13:47

Nazi promoting former president. In

13:50

an interview with a Pittsburgh TV station, Donald

13:52

Trump declined to rule out limits on contraception if

13:54

he wins. So take a listen. So

13:56

related to this is the whole issue

13:58

of contraceptives. Do

14:00

you support any restrictions on a person's

14:03

right to contraception? Well,

14:05

we're looking at that, and I'm going to have a

14:07

policy on that very shortly. And I

14:10

think it's something that you'll find interesting.

14:12

And I'd say it's another issue

14:14

that's very interesting. But you

14:16

will find it, I think, very smart.

14:18

I think it's a smart decision. But

14:20

we'll be releasing it very soon. I

14:23

would note that it seems pretty clear that Donald

14:25

Trump has no idea what the question is, may

14:27

not know what his policy is, and has been

14:29

promising a contraception policy in a few weeks for

14:31

months now. Yeah, maybe years. I don't know. But

14:33

he's obviously left a huge opening for Democrats.

14:35

Huge. Yeah. What

14:38

are you making of this, and how does your Democrats take advantage of it? Gift.

14:41

I mean, absolute gift. I think we should

14:43

talk about driving a truck's roll. Yeah.

14:46

This is a gaping one that we should

14:48

absolutely lean into. It's

14:51

pretty clear. You maybe saw on True

14:53

Social, he tried to clean this one

14:55

up immediately. This might be one of

14:57

the benefits of Trump being a bit in the background, is that

14:59

I'm not sure a post on True Social is cleaning up any

15:02

messes with respect to this. But we won't

15:04

let him. Democrats should

15:06

not let him. It is one

15:08

of the core issues of this campaign. The long

15:10

tail of Dobbs remains. It is

15:13

as strong as ever. And

15:15

let's be real and be serious

15:17

and be clear with ourselves and with the voters.

15:19

This is part of the Trump second term agenda.

15:23

Dobbs was the beginning. Contraception is

15:25

on the table. In the last week, 2025, you've probably seen

15:27

this, like the banning birth control

15:29

is, or at least limiting birth control, restricting birth

15:31

control is part of the Trump

15:33

second term agenda. And so I

15:36

think there's the specifics about this, right? How

15:40

backwards it is to talk about banning

15:42

birth control, but it's also an opening to

15:45

talk about what the

15:47

real consequences of a Trump second term. We

15:49

are not just talking about Trump the

15:52

person. We are talking about Trump the agenda.

15:54

And Trump the person is reprehensible, but Trump

15:56

the agenda is just as reprehensible. And we

15:58

cannot let. We can't talk about the

16:00

former without talking about the latter. If you think

16:02

Trump's position on abortion is unpopular, which you mean

16:05

is new position on counter-structure, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

16:09

poll, 74% of voters think that

16:11

access to birth control pills should be much

16:14

easier. That includes more than 60% of independents

16:16

and more than 50% of Republicans. And

16:19

80%, nearly 80% of voters think that birth control

16:21

pills should be available over the counter without a

16:23

prescription. And so

16:25

this is... It's one of the few things

16:27

that Americans agree on regardless

16:29

of where you live, your party, et

16:31

cetera. It's a pretty standard part of

16:33

American culture and American society now. And

16:35

he is squarely in the

16:37

minority and wants to put

16:39

federal policies in place to

16:42

legislate this. So it's a clear

16:44

win for Democrats. It's a clear win on the campaign

16:47

side. And the key

16:49

is we can't let it just be one

16:51

of... This is one of those pitches that we have to keep

16:53

hitting over the course of the next six years. One

16:56

of the rules in politics is you want to focus

16:58

the voters' minds on issues that unite your base and

17:01

divide theirs. This is a perfect

17:03

example of that. You have just this week,

17:06

Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin, vetoing

17:08

a right to contraception bill passed by

17:10

the Democratic legislature. We know that

17:13

Senate Republicans have already blocked efforts to pass

17:15

a law to enshrine the right of contraception.

17:17

We know that Justices Thomas

17:20

and Alito have looked at and have

17:22

revisiting the Griswold case which guaranteed the

17:25

right to contraception, the right to privacy.

17:27

And so this is on the table,

17:30

and we talked about this in the podcast the

17:32

other day. Trump will

17:34

have a Supreme Court. What do you think those next

17:36

two justices are going to feel about contraception that replace

17:38

Alito and Thomas? This

17:41

is very much in the margin. And

17:43

I kind of wanted to bring up the Nazi

17:45

video and the contraception comments in

17:48

tandem because it does speak to

17:50

this broader debate within the

17:52

Democratic universe about what it is we talk about.

17:54

And the Biden folks, they did talk about the

17:56

contraception thing, but they made a choice.

18:00

to focus their energy

18:02

on the Nazi comment, not the

18:04

contraception comment. It doesn't mean that they won't run ads on

18:06

the country's country comment down the line. It will come. It

18:08

will be heard from again. Let's just write it like that.

18:11

But I think it speaks to just sort of this... Trump

18:14

is a target rich opportunity on a daily basis. And it's

18:16

like, what do we do? How do you pick, what do

18:18

we talk about? What's your sort

18:20

of take on that debate? How do you fall? Yeah,

18:22

I think there's two

18:24

things I think that are sort of pre-requisite

18:27

issues to talk about in this election. And

18:29

we already talked about the message, which I

18:31

think can can overlay on all this. One

18:34

is reproductive freedom. The other is the cost of living. One

18:37

is sort of us on offense. One honestly is

18:39

one us a little bit more on defense. But

18:41

reproductive freedom is in and of itself a

18:43

winning issue. You just talked about all that.

18:45

But it also is a gateway to talk

18:48

about what comes next. And

18:50

voters believe that. I think until Dobbs, I'm

18:52

not sure it was as persuasive, but now

18:54

you can very persuasively make the

18:56

case to voters. They came for

18:58

your reproductive freedom. What's next? The freedom

19:00

to marry, the freedom to vote, the

19:02

freedom to retire with dignity, the freedom

19:05

to use birth control. And

19:07

that is a consequence, a potential consequence

19:09

of re-electing Donald Trump. So both

19:11

for the issue itself and what it allows us to talk about,

19:13

I think abortion rights and reproductive freedom

19:16

have to be core to our message. On

19:18

the cost of living, harder issue, right? We

19:20

can't convince people that gas

19:23

is cheap or what have you. But I think it goes back

19:25

to the frame about who's going to fight for you and who's

19:27

going to care for you. Joe Biden has

19:29

done things in his presidency, significant things to

19:31

lower the cost of significant things for people,

19:33

inflation reduction act and everything that's in there.

19:36

We could go into it ad

19:38

nauseam. There's a lot of, there's a Christmas

19:40

tree from which to choose, but Joe

19:42

Biden has tried and cares about you. And what

19:45

did Donald Trump do? The first thing he did

19:47

when he went into the administration, economically speaking, tax

19:49

cuts for his rich friends, right?

19:51

And we're still bearing some of the, or

19:54

feeling some of the effects of that. And so who

19:57

is going to go in there and actually put what a middle class?

20:00

a lower middle class family cares about at the center of

20:02

their agenda. Joe Biden, who's already shown you he's going to

20:04

do it, or Donald Trump, who's already shown

20:06

you what he's going to do, look out for himself and

20:08

his rich friends. Those two issues I think are if

20:11

we can't make those cases, it's not that

20:13

the other stuff, democracy, climate, like everything

20:16

matters, but if we can't sort of make those two cases,

20:18

I think we are going to be in a really tough

20:20

spot. Last thing I'll say is, and I kind of referenced

20:22

this earlier, character

20:25

cannot be the only thing. We all think Donald Trump

20:27

is a terrible person. He is a terrible person, but

20:31

voters this election I think

20:33

are particularly transactional, particularly looking

20:36

at their bottom line because frankly they have to,

20:39

especially swing voters. It can't

20:41

just be that Trump is bad, it has to be that

20:43

what Trump will do is bad. It is hard for

20:46

Democrats, it's hard for hardcore Democrats like myself

20:48

to ignore the reprehensible nature of

20:51

the person, but we have to go deeper than

20:53

that if we're going to be successful in the

20:56

election. That's interesting because a lot of,

20:58

it's very clear that Donald Trump's

21:00

mere presence on the public stage morally

21:03

offends Joe Biden, as it should. And

21:06

probably everyone listening to this is

21:08

fine. Yes, and that

21:10

comes through in how he thinks about him. The

21:14

character thing is hard. There is the sort

21:16

of, I think somewhat unfairly infamous ad from

21:19

the Clinton campaign in 2016 of

21:21

a little girl watching Donald Trump on television that sort

21:23

of became- Short

21:26

hand for what not to do? Yeah, shorthand for why

21:28

Clinton lost, which that is giving one television ad way

21:30

too much credit, but there was a sense that a

21:33

lot of the message was that Donald Trump

21:35

is a terrible person, who also do terrible

21:37

things, but he was such

21:39

a shock to the political system in terms

21:41

of how often he lied, the

21:44

things, his corruption and all of that

21:46

that people couldn't avoid talking about it.

21:49

And Trump is actually I think too, in

21:51

a pretty strategic way made his lack of

21:53

character an asset in this election, which is

21:55

when he is making his, what is his

21:57

most, and this is a sad statement on-

22:00

everything. His most broadly persuasive

22:02

message is, I'm an asshole, but I'm

22:04

gonna be an asshole for

22:06

you. You may disagree with

22:10

how I act, what I say, even

22:12

what I believe, and that can go

22:14

right or left, but I am

22:16

strong enough and tough enough and I'm not

22:18

gonna give a shit about those other people, I'm gonna give a

22:20

shit for you. And like that works. And so then you have

22:22

to turn that around and say, how do

22:25

we turn that part of him against him?

22:27

How do we make it be about what

22:29

he would do? Exactly right. And

22:31

I think there is a tendency

22:33

to the point

22:36

about swinging at pitches. We

22:38

get so rightly morally outraged that

22:40

sometimes we don't make that second step. It's like

22:42

Trump is a racist, Trump is a misogynist, and

22:44

yes he is, and yes he is. But what

22:46

will that mean for the

22:49

mother in suburban Phoenix who is struggling to

22:51

pay her bills? And that means that when

22:53

he gets there he's going to do bad

22:55

things like take away your, you know, right

22:57

to birth control or take away

22:59

your right to marry or whatever it might be. And so

23:02

making that second step critical and

23:05

making sure that we don't fall into

23:07

the trap of not doing that

23:09

is obviously like the hardest thing to do for

23:12

political professionals and observers alike, but like it

23:14

is, I can't stress it enough, it is

23:18

required to win the election

23:20

in my opinion because swing voters, people

23:22

who are, you know, potentially not listening to

23:24

this podcast, they need

23:27

the second step to decide to vote for

23:29

Joe Biden. You know, and Melissa,

23:31

thank you. You mentioned inflation and reproductive

23:33

freedom as the big issues and

23:36

possibility, etc. You know, one issue

23:38

that is central to so much of how Democrats talk about the

23:40

election, very central to a lot of what the Biden campaign talks

23:42

about is democracy. I've

23:45

been pretty skeptical that saving democracy is going to

23:47

be a good message for us. You

23:49

see all the polls that show that basically 4% of people

23:52

think the political system is working. So if we become the

23:54

defenders of democracy, we're becoming the defenders of the system, 96%

23:57

people think it's not working. However, I

23:59

was by a report in

24:01

Bloomberg Businessweek this week where reporter Josh

24:03

Green wrote that in focus

24:05

groups, including some run by friends of

24:07

ours like David Binder, who

24:09

worked for Obama and is working for Biden now, and

24:12

Sarah Longwell, who's been on the podcast before, have seen

24:15

real fear amongst persuadable voters that Donald Trump would try

24:17

to stay a third term and that that is moving

24:19

people towards Biden. Have you seen that in any of

24:22

the research that you look at? Not

24:25

specifically. I mean, I honestly haven't looked.

24:27

It certainly isn't sort of popping up on its

24:30

own. I can

24:32

be convinced that it would be a useful argument,

24:34

but I think it is

24:36

not going to be as potent as the arguments about

24:39

cost of living, about abortion rights and others. And

24:42

it's not that... I think democracy also is like

24:44

another layer on the, what is Trump

24:48

coming for next? There's

24:50

a bigger beta. Are we framing this conversation

24:52

about freedom? Are we framing about democracy? I

24:55

think freedom is... I mean, we saw this

24:57

in 2022 very explicitly. I think it's still

25:00

valid in 2024. That

25:03

freedom is also a word, a, and

25:05

a concept, I think, that is more

25:07

accessible to voters than democracy. And

25:10

so the more we can talk about freedom

25:12

and the freedom to vote, the freedom to

25:14

participate, whatever, however any organization might want

25:16

to lean into it, the better it'll be.

25:19

It's one more tool in the arsenal to talk

25:21

about what Trump will take away from you if

25:23

he becomes president again. I

25:25

was struck by this in part

25:27

because on Tuesday's podcast, Tommy and

25:30

Favreau and I talked about

25:32

Trump's NRA speech and how the press really

25:34

focused on Trump

25:38

almost ingest, throwing it, like kind of trolling

25:40

the audience and the reporters about serving a

25:42

third term and getting the crowd to chant

25:45

third term, which is

25:47

concerning at an NRA convention.

25:50

And as opposed to Trump saying he was going to

25:52

repeal all of Biden's gun safety laws.

25:55

But I do think... And so we kind

25:57

of said, once again, everyone, Democrats, the press

25:59

are missing the The thing that

26:01

really matters, we're focusing, we're gravitating towards

26:03

this shiny object, right?

26:06

But I can see, and this is sort of how we

26:09

should think about messaging in any campaign,

26:11

is if the message is Donald Trump

26:14

only cares about power for himself, you

26:16

can fit the third term thing under that.

26:18

Into it, yeah, exactly. It's not, and

26:20

I do like what the president said

26:22

in that TikTok yesterday, he's only

26:25

in it for himself. He's in it for the power. I'm

26:27

in it for you. I'm not going to care

26:29

about you. That is a message. You're

26:32

the master of message, not me. But that is

26:34

a message under which you can talk about any

26:36

number of issues. And it's

26:39

not that, and I kind of misframed this in

26:41

my earlier answer to your question, which

26:44

is it's not the issue of abortion per

26:46

se, it's not the issue of the

26:48

cost of living per se that is going to

26:50

convince voters, it's the feeling that Joe Biden is

26:52

going to do good things with

26:55

respect to those issues and Donald Trump is going to

26:57

do bad things. And so you need an overarching message

26:59

to fit things under, same with democracy, same with climate,

27:01

same with any, pick your issue, you can fit it

27:03

into that frame and that means it's a pretty good

27:05

frame. This

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29:06

it's been a rough year. It's going to get

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shop. Okay,

29:45

moving on to Trump's Manhattan election interference trial. Oh,

29:47

God. Okay. Here we go. Here we go. On

29:49

Tuesday, the defense rested after calling just two witnesses to

29:51

the surprise of absolutely no one. Donald Trump was not

29:53

one of those witnesses. Close the arguments

29:56

will be next week, and then the jury will get the case. John

29:59

and I are going to talk to Andrew Weisman. on

30:01

Friday's pod for all the legal details about the cases

30:03

has come in and how it's going to proceed. But

30:05

I want to talk to you about the politics and

30:07

over the weekend Ross Duthat of the New York Times

30:09

had a particularly trollish column that said Trump's trial is

30:11

actually helping him. He wrote and I quote, even

30:13

sinful demagogues can face a politically motivated

30:16

prosecution and stand again from the appearance

30:18

of legal persecution. And that appearance so

30:20

far has been this trial's political gift

30:22

to Donald Trump. This was

30:24

offered, of course, with absolutely no polling or data to

30:26

support his point. Dizu, what is your

30:28

response to this scorcher of a hot take? It

30:31

is a classic of the genre for

30:33

sure, again, of hot take-ism.

30:35

But I do not agree that

30:38

being on criminal trial has helped

30:40

somebody politically. But, you know, I

30:43

will be honest, I don't necessarily agree that it

30:46

has hurt him yet. You know, in general, the

30:48

more we're talking about Trump, the more he's sort

30:50

of out front on things, as we talked about

30:52

before, the more we're presenting a contrast between Trump

30:54

and Biden, I think the better. And so to

30:56

the extent that this is bringing him back to

30:58

light, I think that's on balance

31:00

good. Goes back to

31:02

the, you know, woman in suburban Phoenix I

31:04

talked about. The substance of the trial, which

31:07

like to be clear, I'm not really following

31:09

it that closely. Like I'm trying to consume

31:11

the media like a normal person. I see

31:13

what I see, but I don't. You said

31:15

that as you're sitting in on a political

31:18

podcast. Yeah, but no, I'm not like, you

31:20

know, watching cable news for the like, you

31:22

know, the OJ trial style coverage that it

31:24

may be given. Anyway, point is the woman

31:26

suburban Phoenix, who is struggling

31:28

to pay her bills, like this is

31:30

about hush money and adult film

31:33

star, you know,

31:35

kickbacks. And does that

31:37

have anything to do with, you know, with voters

31:40

day to day life note, like the substance of

31:42

the trial doesn't. And so I can get why

31:44

Democrats don't want to talk about it, right? It's like, do

31:47

I really want to talk about Stormy

31:49

Daniel? Like, no, I don't want to necessarily talk.

31:51

That's not affecting people's life day to day. I

31:53

think it's kind of been a wash. It's been a bit of a nothing burger to

31:56

politically electorally so far.

31:59

The verdict. That's a different story. And

32:02

we'll see what happens. I think either ... I

32:05

will not predict what, at

32:08

this point, what a conviction or acquittal or

32:10

a hung jury will do, but I do

32:12

think that will be a moment where people

32:14

will have to talk about this and

32:17

actually have something specific to talk about.

32:19

This is trial machinations and salacious details

32:21

and things that are not moving swing

32:23

voters in May of 2024. I

32:26

understand intellectually all the things you just

32:28

said, but there's another way

32:30

of looking at that, which is the former

32:33

president of the United States, the

32:35

person who was right now at least a coin flip away

32:37

from returning to the White House, is

32:40

on trial in the media capital of

32:42

the world for a crime that emanated

32:44

from an affair with an adult film

32:47

star that could

32:49

theoretically have him be sentenced to prison

32:51

in the next three weeks. Why

32:53

is this not the biggest story in the country? I

32:55

mean, it is the biggest story in the country. I think it's

32:58

just not persuading people. Well, it isn't the biggest story in the

33:00

country. There's a PBS NewsHour

33:02

poll which says that 55% of the country is

33:04

paying zero to little attention about this. So,

33:06

yeah. It is the biggest political story right

33:09

now for sure. I think there are

33:11

two reasons for that. One is the things you talk about

33:13

about the media environment. It's easy

33:15

to ignore things now. It is easy to not

33:18

passively find out about things anymore. I

33:20

think that is just

33:22

the nature of the beast right now in

33:26

our political news economy. But I think the

33:28

bigger thing is opinions about Trump, I

33:30

think I said this the last time I was on this podcast, are

33:33

pretty baked in with most of the electorate. People

33:36

think he's a creep. Even the people who have over him think he's

33:38

a creep. People can easily believe the

33:40

allegations that are being made in court

33:42

about him. I think the

33:45

hard thing that I've had to internalize, especially

33:47

over now, I started with the Clinton campaign

33:49

in January of 2016.

33:52

So now it's been like eight years that I've

33:54

been fighting this guy. His

33:57

superpower in some ways is

33:59

that he... has such

34:01

firm opinions that have been

34:03

established about him, not just from those eight years, but

34:06

from 10 years of The Apprentice and 20 years of

34:08

being in Home Alone or whatever, that like getting people,

34:11

you're not going to change your people's opinions about him. You

34:13

have to get them to change their opinion about what he

34:15

might do for them going back to our previous conversation. So

34:17

I think it's partially just that like it's easier to ignore

34:19

things in 2024. I think it's a

34:21

lot about these facts are

34:24

reinforcing what people already believe about him and

34:27

are not necessarily going to affect their vote

34:30

choice. I think a verdict very well could.

34:33

And you don't want to fell

34:35

in as your president. And

34:37

that's not a Democratic or Republican statement,

34:39

I don't think. So we'll see if

34:42

it's hung. If he's acquitted, I think it

34:44

could swing the other way. But that's

34:47

an uncharted territory. That is

34:49

for sure for all of us. Obviously, there's one

34:51

pretty specific detailed reason why people are paying

34:54

attention. It's not on TV. Yeah. Right?

34:57

It's like a super OJ trial, you know, to

34:59

bring up a truly dated people

35:02

in our 40s, though. But like the people in our

35:04

20s are like, what? It was... They saw

35:06

the FX, the dramatization of it. That's

35:10

even an interesting question I've been sort of wrestling with

35:12

the theoretical one about. The media environment

35:14

is, let's say it was televised and

35:17

it is live on CNN,

35:19

MSNBC, and probably not Fox every

35:21

day, right? And maybe on big days, like

35:24

the first day of the Cohen testimony, Michael

35:26

Cohen testimony, that the

35:28

networks break in at, I don't know, 10 a.m.

35:30

I don't know what they're breaking in from.

35:33

Do even more people see that? The way people

35:35

more see it is that it's on video, so

35:37

therefore there will be clips of it on TikTok

35:39

and Instagram. So people would see that. But

35:42

just the same people... This is so much of what

35:44

I think about with just sort of political

35:46

earned media strategy now is we're all just talking to each

35:48

other all the time. So we would just have more ways

35:51

to watch it, the same people. But I

35:53

think you're right. So think about the

35:55

George Floyd video or Rodney

35:57

King back in the day or any number of things. catch

36:00

things. Video has a unique power that

36:03

audio does not and that drawings and

36:05

graphics do not,

36:07

etc. So I do think it would provide both like

36:10

grift for creators

36:12

to do funny things on TikTok

36:14

or more content from which to

36:17

draw other content as it were.

36:19

But I don't think it

36:21

changes the fundamental second point, which is

36:24

it's kind of saying things about Trump that the

36:26

people who like Trump like about him, which is

36:28

gross. And the people who don't like Trump don't

36:30

like about him and the swing voters kind of know

36:32

about him and have baked into their opinions about him

36:35

and are looking for another reason to vote against him

36:37

or vote for Joe Biden. I'm like,

36:39

I'm 1000% with you on, you know,

36:41

reproductive freedom, cost of living. That

36:43

is the whole thing. But like one of Barack

36:46

Obama's like communications rules is you have to talk

36:48

with the elephant in the room. Yeah.

36:50

Right. Everyone knows the elephant's there. So it's weird when you don't

36:52

talk about it. And once again, Donald

36:54

Trump is on trial and polls

36:57

have shown media polls I've looked at

36:59

show that when you describe the charges

37:01

in this case, majorities of

37:03

people, including a not insignificant swath of 2020

37:07

and current Trump voters find

37:09

it pretty concerning. Yeah. Most

37:11

people do not know what those charges are. They

37:13

kind of have a, it's not they have any

37:15

sense of why he's on trial. They, it's kind

37:17

of vague. Stormy Daniels are vaguely aware of, they

37:19

don't really know about the election interference part. They

37:22

know it's not classified documents and violent

37:24

insurrection, but like, and

37:27

then you see, which by the way, I will just as an

37:29

aside say, I think

37:31

those trials will and would be more concerning

37:33

to voters. The world's talking about theoretical exercise

37:35

right now. Exactly. But anyway,

37:37

good to know. And this is another

37:40

challenge we have as Democrats. It's just, there's such

37:42

asymmetry in the messaging around this, which is Trump

37:44

is out every day

37:46

in every forum defining

37:48

what they're talking about. Mike Johnson is showing up

37:51

in New York. Yeah. And he's bringing these fucking

37:53

Yahoo's in the red ties in to be there.

37:55

And then you have the right wing media apparatus,

37:58

just, you know, everything Fox News. to the local

38:01

conservative person that is on

38:03

midday Iowa radio when people

38:05

are driving around defining this in

38:08

a way. Which I would try. Yeah, which I would try. And there's no

38:10

one saying the opposite. Well,

38:13

you know what I think that is? The uncertainty

38:15

about the outcome. Yeah. Right? Because you go out

38:17

there and talk about this for two months or

38:19

however long, how long has the trial been? Feels

38:21

like two months. Yeah. Talk about how

38:23

terrible this is, etc, etc. And then a jury of

38:25

his peers acquits him and you look

38:27

like a doofus. Yeah. Right? So, and I

38:29

feel like the, you know, the Republicans who

38:32

are there can just say witch hunt,

38:34

witch hunt, witch hunt. And if he gets convicted, they'll just

38:36

keep saying witch hunt, witch hunt. But I think, and if

38:39

he's acquitted or hung jury, then it's like proven it.

38:41

It is important. I told you it was proven. Right?

38:43

So I think a lot of it just basically has

38:45

to do with the fact that if you can't be

38:47

sure of the outcome, it's really hard to go out

38:50

there and and crow about the facts, etc., and then

38:52

have the legal system let them let them go. So

38:54

again, verdict comes down. I think

38:56

everything changes. I think that's a real,

38:58

real big elephant that you absolutely can't

39:01

ignore. But I get why

39:03

and I generally support the idea

39:05

that like, while the legal

39:07

process is playing out, it's a

39:09

high risk situation to talk about this in

39:12

public, if you're a campaign or what have

39:14

you. And there are plenty of other things

39:16

like Nazi videos

39:19

and contraception bands that

39:21

are probably a more effective use of the

39:23

limited airspace you get to

39:25

talk about politics. Do you think if he

39:27

is convicted that Democrats should talk about

39:29

it? I

39:31

think, yeah, I do.

39:33

I mean, I think it that becomes an

39:35

elephant that is like so crazy not to,

39:38

that's so crazy to ignore that it just seems

39:40

seems ridiculous at some

39:42

level. Do I think it's going to be

39:44

the only thing we talk about? No, everything

39:46

I said before still holds. But I think

39:49

having a convicted felon in the White

39:52

House is actually enough. Probably in the

39:54

range of arguments that we can make,

39:57

It probably ranges towards the top. They

40:00

beat up the top but it's probably or

40:02

it distorts the dup. what am I series

40:04

of the selection is that were like yes

40:06

the campaign needs a overarching narrative about why

40:08

Biden in why not try pride in probably

40:11

a little more why not Trump than why

40:13

Biden has to be more effective by the

40:15

way the media says in his changed and

40:17

even the way advertising exchange rate the way

40:19

you have to be much more tuck. Other

40:21

than the stuff you're doing and basically football

40:24

games where you series audience yes it's very

40:26

targeted years his minority bulls that's you can

40:28

be. you can have a much more. Like.

40:31

Targeted micro messaging like there. We know.

40:33

their group of Nikki Haley voters who

40:35

disclose your by not a whole bunch

40:37

of stuff. During. Like Donald

40:39

Trump in are concerned about the idea of

40:41

a cell and as present the I in

40:43

his own like you can target those people

40:45

just and there in the but there may

40:47

not be what is in the ad it

40:50

runs during beats Georgia Michigan game in October

40:52

right? exactly I don't know I don't exist

40:54

or to Michigan game but you get to

40:56

too big that yes I think you're generally.

40:59

Yeah. With a resume I'm hesitating is good. I actually

41:01

think the medicine is kind of the same for a lot

41:03

of people right now, so it's right and so. The

41:06

macro masses in the micro message oddly

41:08

a lined up, but there are probably

41:10

some. They're definitely some things that I'm.

41:13

Work better with something bigger than others. The

41:15

interesting thing though, is that. Abortion

41:17

in the cost of living his

41:19

brother problem crossed. Have any poll

41:22

uses However, you are do twenty

41:24

five to thirty four year old

41:26

women with red hair like I

41:28

guarantee you. Cost of living is that

41:30

are busy right? So. When

41:32

that, when that is the case, you can't and those are

41:34

the prerequisites, but maybe not the only thing that you can

41:36

use to persuade us. Aren't. One

41:38

could seen before we got a break. I.

41:40

Am thrilled to announce that John is that with

41:42

Season Four of The Wilderness. Yes, we've been with

41:44

Democrats of In the Wilderness for a long as

41:46

time now. The think I'm on episode ones that

41:48

has a hits the will. there's a chance deep

41:50

dive into who the undecided voters are, where they

41:52

are, and how we can win them over. John.

41:55

fox's all of our favorite put of experts in

41:57

strategists and organizers that what's working what isn't it's

42:00

Truly great podcast. It is mandatory listening

42:02

for people who are working in politics who

42:04

are even if you're just somebody trying to

42:06

convince your Biden skeptical cousin

42:09

not to vote for RFK jr. This podcast will help

42:11

you figure that out Listen to the

42:13

trailer in the pot save America feed and make sure to

42:15

subscribe so you don't miss the first two episodes What's drop

42:17

on May 26th when we come back Brian

42:19

Wallach Sandra Abravaia and Katie Kirk? Guys

42:31

it's been a rough year It's gonna get rougher

42:33

and you deserve a little treat for not going

42:36

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43:48

today You

43:55

Donald Trump Can't leave the courtroom so just to rub

43:57

it in a little pot save America is going on

43:59

tour. You've probably asleep right now,

44:01

but if he were conscious, be so,

44:04

so jealous. The Democracy or Else tour

44:06

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44:08

followed by Boston on June twenty eighth.

44:11

Then we got a Madison Phoenix in

44:13

Arbor instilling See all the tour dates

44:15

and get your tickets now at crooked.com/events.

44:24

We have some very special guest here

44:26

of today Brian Wallet and Sandra Opera

44:28

Via are two of our friends and

44:30

former colleagues from the Obama years and

44:32

then in the campaign trail that Gays

44:34

are working in the White House and

44:37

or in Twenty Seventeen or Death for

44:39

the birth of their second daughter, Brian

44:41

was diagnosed with a Ls at the

44:43

age of thirty six. They have since

44:45

become to of the most inspiring and

44:47

effective advocate for people living with a

44:49

Ls and or the subjects of the

44:51

new Amazon documentary. For Love and

44:53

Life No Ordinary Campaign which comes out

44:55

on May twenty eighth and was produced

44:57

by a friend of the Pods Haiti

44:59

Chorus of Boos also here with us

45:01

today. Katie Brian, Sandra Welcome deposit American!

45:03

Thanks for being here. Ah,

45:07

it's so good to see you guys did!

45:09

So good to see As So Bryant! It's

45:11

been seven years since you were diagnosed with

45:14

Ls. You were initially given six months to

45:16

live. Can you talk about.

45:18

The. The mental and emotional journey

45:20

that brought you from that day

45:23

on. To the moment that the to

45:25

have you decided to. Turn. Your

45:27

personal battle with a Ls

45:29

into a grassroots movement called

45:31

I Am Alice. Well

45:37

at the beginning. I

45:44

ignored my diagnosis. And

45:49

we didn't tell anyone. Other

45:54

than our family, ah ah

45:56

ah. Ah, and

45:58

after Christmas. I

46:03

turned to Sandra. And

46:12

I wanted to do something to help the fight.

46:23

And I asked her if I could start an ALS

46:25

nonprofit. And

46:28

her response, you're turning to

46:31

me? I don't want to swear on air. Well

46:33

fuck no. Yes,

46:38

we just have this terminal diagnosis and Brian

46:41

wanted to start a whole new endeavor. So

46:48

what did you make me do? Brian's asking

46:50

what I made Brian do was I said

46:52

in true political form, go on a listening

46:54

and learning tour. Where did

46:57

you listen and learn? All

47:01

over the country. Brian

47:03

flew literally all over the country

47:05

for six months with this diagnosis, which was wild

47:07

because he had a newborn and a two year

47:09

old and this diagnosis and he

47:12

ended up coming back and I did

47:14

not request this, but he did present me with

47:16

a 40 page PowerPoint.

47:19

And to be clear, I did not

47:21

request it, but it was very informative

47:24

and convincing. And

47:28

what is that? Oh

47:33

yes, and it only had text. No images. Oh

47:35

my god. The real lawyer. I was just

47:37

about to say. There were also

47:40

footnotes, I think. Oh my gosh. And

47:44

after that, I

47:47

was all in. And Sandra was all in. Yep.

47:51

And so then we. Oh,

48:00

we reached out to our network to

48:05

help us start IMLS.

48:10

You guys have achieved an

48:13

enormous amount in the last several years.

48:15

Sandra, how did you decide what

48:17

you guys were going to focus on and

48:20

come up with a strategy that got you to

48:22

this point? Yeah, well, some of it

48:24

was in the PowerPoint. And

48:27

part of that entailed Brian and I observing what

48:30

kind of advocacy was being done on the Hill.

48:32

And of course, you know, before Brian and I

48:35

met, we worked in the Senate together and I,

48:38

as we all had experienced, we

48:40

knew what good advocacy looked like.

48:42

We knew that it was about

48:44

meaningful relationships with members, with chiefs

48:46

of staff, legislative directors and what

48:48

we observed happening was these really

48:50

cursory meetings with, you know,

48:52

a bunch of advocates one day a

48:55

year and it just wasn't a sustained

48:57

systemic approach. And so when

48:59

we saw that reality and we knew

49:01

what was possible, we decided that one

49:03

way in which we could have a

49:05

real impact was to create this coalition

49:08

of patients and caregivers who would drive

49:10

forward the movement and not be treated

49:12

as tokens. And they would

49:14

tell their stories and they would develop meaningful relationships

49:16

with the House and the Senate. And

49:18

we knew that we could do it. We knew

49:20

how to do it. We knew the people to do it with and

49:22

we knew it wasn't being done. Yeah.

49:25

Katie, what drew you to their

49:28

story and what made

49:30

you decide to become an executive producer

49:32

on this project? Well,

49:34

I was reading an article

49:36

about profiling Brian and Sandra

49:38

in Politico written by Sam

49:41

Stein who I'd cross paths with

49:43

when he was at Huffington Post.

49:46

And I was so captivated and

49:48

moved by their story and so

49:50

inspired. Honestly, it was a pretty

49:52

long piece and I remember just

49:54

reading it and not being able

49:56

to put my phone down. And

49:59

I saw in the body. of the piece that they

50:01

were developing or kind of working

50:04

on a documentary and I thought,

50:07

oh gosh, I really hope that they

50:09

have some kind of video

50:12

of the journey they've been on

50:14

because I thought it would be

50:16

really difficult to reverse engineer a

50:18

documentary after at that point in

50:21

Brian's disease. So I

50:23

reached out to Sam Stein on Twitter.

50:25

I DM'd him. And

50:27

hoping that, yes, as one does these

50:29

days and hoping he checked his DMs

50:31

as I don't very often. And

50:34

he, I said, Sam, you

50:37

know, that was such a beautiful piece.

50:39

Congratulations. And I would love to meet

50:41

Brian and Sandra. And he

50:43

said, great. So, you know, a few days later,

50:45

we had connected, we set up

50:47

a Zoom. It was during the pandemic.

50:51

And I remember being in my kitchen and

50:53

we just, Brian

50:55

and Sandra were very, they were excited to talk to

50:57

me. I was so excited to talk to them. And

50:59

what can I say? It was love at first sight,

51:03

love at first Zoom. And

51:05

I just said, listen, I

51:08

want to help in any way I can. You know,

51:10

I want to be useful to you all. So

51:13

I ended up, you know,

51:15

helping with the documentary, giving some notes,

51:17

you know, I think because I've done

51:19

so much cancer advocacy worked on, I'm

51:21

really pretty, I've gotten

51:24

good at synthesizing and distilling

51:26

complicated medical concepts. And

51:29

I think I was maybe helpful in giving

51:31

some feedback on that.

51:34

I helped with some finishing funds.

51:36

And, you know, I

51:38

basically just got to know the whole group

51:40

and said, you know, I would

51:42

like to be your vessel, do what, you know,

51:45

what you will with me. And

51:47

so, you know, I think

51:49

we've developed a deep

51:51

friendship and I just

51:53

might say a throuple. Yes, yes, we

51:55

talk about being a throuple all the time.

51:57

We think it's so funny. And

52:01

I'm just so, I feel

52:04

so honored to be a part of

52:06

this project and to help spread the

52:08

word because it's not just about

52:10

ALS. It's, well, it's first

52:12

and foremost, I think, a love story.

52:15

But it's also about the power of

52:19

people when they

52:21

join forces and

52:23

are galvanized and care about an

52:25

issue that you could actually get

52:29

real change accomplished. And

52:31

I think because of Brian and

52:34

Sandra's political acumen, they were at

52:36

a distinct advantage. But I do

52:38

think it shows the power in

52:41

numbers. And I think it

52:44

is a real template for

52:46

other so-called rare diseases, which

52:49

as the Chan-Zuckerberg

52:51

initiative, which couldn't, this phone couldn't have

52:53

been done without them, they have a

52:55

whole program called Rare as One. And

52:57

rare diseases are not really rare. What

52:59

is the quote that Jeff always gives?

53:02

They're like 10,000 of them that affect

53:04

300 million people. Is

53:07

that worldwide? Basically, every American family

53:09

is affected by some rare disease.

53:12

Yeah. So anyway, I just, I

53:14

love them. I'm

53:17

so happy that you're giving this

53:19

film attention because I think

53:21

it really will inspire a ton of people. I'm

53:24

so excited to see it. What

53:27

was it like for you guys to open

53:29

up your home and your

53:31

lives to this documentary? Was it hard?

53:34

Was it cathartic? Was it both?

53:38

For me, it was easy.

53:41

Brian's not shy. Brian's

53:45

not shy. I

53:49

was a lawyer. And

53:56

I had a career. where

54:00

I was always doing public speaking. So

54:04

for me, when

54:10

Chris, our director, raised the idea, I

54:14

said, hell yes! But

54:20

I had to convince Sandra again!

54:25

Very persuasive. Oh, yeah. I

54:28

mean, it's hard, but I

54:31

think that as we started to do press around the work

54:36

and the impact we were having in the early days,

54:38

and then Brian has this social media presence, and

54:41

I was really struck by how much

54:43

people were responding to it. And

54:46

I thought, wow, these are mediums

54:48

where we can really drive change. So

54:51

it's not only in the advocacy work, but in

54:53

communicating about this disease in a different way, I

54:55

think we feel authentically

54:57

hopeful that there is the chance that

54:59

we could be among the first generation

55:02

of survivors with this disease. And

55:05

so we think it's so important to

55:07

impart that hope, because if you

55:09

don't have that as the backdrop,

55:12

then there's only inaction, right? You

55:15

need that hope to drive forward and motivate

55:17

a coalition, and I think through

55:19

all of these mediums, Brian's social and the

55:21

press, and then

55:24

now, really in an incredible way, on

55:26

Amazon Prime with over 200 million viewers

55:28

to be able to drive forward that

55:30

message, that this

55:32

is a disease where there

55:34

is hope and possibility, and what it looks

55:36

like for someone to drive forward in the

55:38

face of these odds, and

55:41

to really accomplish remarkable

55:43

things. Yeah, and

55:45

you guys have two daughters,

55:47

six and eight. How have they handled

55:50

all of this? How are they handling it? Well,

55:58

they haven't seen the movie. But

56:00

we have a... But

56:07

we have a... Oh,

56:10

but we have told them.

56:12

Yeah, all about ALS.

56:21

And how we're trying to turn it... From

56:24

fatal to chronic. And

56:26

so I think they know...

56:31

How hard we are fighting. And

56:38

they have been amazing.

56:42

They have been

56:44

amazing. And

56:46

they have worked

56:49

for a while. And they...

56:55

Along with Sandra... Are

57:00

my reason... For

57:07

being here. You know,

57:09

I wanted to mention, you know, Chris

57:11

Burke did an amazing job. He's

57:14

not here. But he

57:16

and Brian went to college together. They

57:19

went to Yale, my safety school. And

57:22

basically, when Brian was diagnosed,

57:24

Chris was one of many

57:26

people. You know, Brian was

57:28

a huge leader

57:30

at Yale. Everyone thought he would

57:32

run for president one day. You

57:35

know, he was that guy. And so many people

57:37

reached out and Chris said, what can I do?

57:40

And Chris did the initial

57:42

film for IMLS to kick

57:44

off the nonprofit. And

57:46

then he said, there's more here. So

57:48

he followed Brian and Sandra around

57:50

for three years. And

57:53

the film is so intimate. I

57:56

think, you know, there's so many Scenes

57:59

where... You know,

58:01

founder and Brian are preparing for

58:03

their Capitol Hill testimony. That's one

58:05

of my favorite scenes are in

58:07

a hotel room late at night.

58:09

Kind of going over with their

58:11

point to say that there's so

58:13

many very intimate moments and Chris

58:15

did a beautiful job I think

58:17

as be more than a fly

58:19

on the wall. but because of

58:21

his relationship with Brian and Sondra

58:23

which I'm sure grew during this

58:25

period of time, she was able

58:27

to capture these intensely personal moments

58:29

which I think really. Makes make

58:31

the film. As. As

58:33

losing and poignant and meaningful as

58:36

it is and and I just

58:38

you know Chris worked so hard

58:40

and I just wanted to give

58:42

him a shy out. The I

58:44

Now is Amazing! So what's

58:46

next for I am A O

58:48

s like work for people who

58:50

wanna help want to contribute. That

58:53

when were you guys hoping for

58:56

in the in the months to

58:58

come in terms of research, treatments,

59:00

Legislation Sunday like? what? What's what's

59:02

next? What's.

59:11

That this week. I

59:15

am a. Alas, Our.

59:21

They're having of the first ever summit

59:23

in D C. And

59:29

they're bringing together. Oh. Yeah,

59:35

Group some all sorts of

59:37

different but related neurodegenerative. Diseases

59:39

so. Brian and I

59:41

has so much admiration for so

59:43

many things that hideous and including

59:45

and importantly set up to cancer

59:48

and so how Katie lead this

59:50

coalition and really. You. know

59:52

listed all boats that is so much

59:54

in the spirit of what brine and

59:56

i see as possible with alzheimer's and

59:58

a alas and parkinson's and huntington all

1:00:00

of these diseases are really a part

1:00:02

of this family of neurodegenerative diseases. And

1:00:05

so at this moment, IMLS

1:00:08

is really spearheading along with

1:00:10

others this coalition of neurodiseases

1:00:13

to bring attention to them, to

1:00:15

drive forward with more

1:00:17

collaboration and coordination. Because

1:00:19

there are a lot of areas

1:00:22

where these diseases overlap. Yeah. And

1:00:24

if they could kind of focus

1:00:27

on collaboration instead of competition

1:00:29

and really kind of figure

1:00:31

out where the Venn

1:00:33

diagram exists, then hopefully

1:00:35

that'll move science forward faster.

1:00:39

Because I think that's one of

1:00:41

the main goals. And also just to use

1:00:44

what Brian and Sandra have done

1:00:47

as a template or a blueprint for

1:00:49

other people who have rare diseases or

1:00:51

any kind of cause they believe in,

1:00:53

that there is actually a

1:00:56

roadmap to figuring out how

1:00:58

you can be an effective advocate

1:01:00

and how you can actually

1:01:02

implement and inspire change as these

1:01:05

two have done so beautifully.

1:01:07

Not only with changes in legislation

1:01:09

like getting social security disability

1:01:11

benefits to go into to

1:01:15

happen immediately. It used to be you

1:01:17

had to wait six months. And for

1:01:19

someone with ALS, that can be an

1:01:21

eternity. They got that change. They got

1:01:23

so much more funding. I think it's

1:01:25

been raised to a billion dollars for

1:01:27

ALS research when previously it had been

1:01:30

what, Sandra? Yeah, it was in the

1:01:32

low hundreds. And yeah, so we have

1:01:34

really... And that's part

1:01:36

of the legislation that President Biden signed,

1:01:38

which is also amazing that you guys

1:01:40

got legislation through this Congress in this

1:01:43

or in 2021 in this political climate

1:01:45

is just incredible. They work with the

1:01:47

FDA to make certain drugs available

1:01:49

for people. And so, I

1:01:51

mean, honestly, It's an absolutely

1:01:54

Sisyphean task. And They were able to

1:01:56

not only push the boulder up the

1:01:58

hill, but get it to the. The

1:02:00

role on the other side. I mean, it's. Just

1:02:02

phenomenal what they've been able to achieve.

1:02:04

What were some of the the

1:02:06

lessons and advice you gave Sandrine

1:02:09

Brian as being someone who became

1:02:11

a a very public advocate for

1:02:13

a family members terminal illness. I'd

1:02:16

like to think that I gave them advice

1:02:18

that they didn't need any advice for me.

1:02:20

John. Honestly, They were

1:02:22

so. Focus. So

1:02:25

myopically so kissed and so

1:02:27

I'm you know, appropriately covering

1:02:29

every aspect of this disease,

1:02:31

getting people you know, galvanizing

1:02:34

a community snow. Patient advocacy

1:02:36

is so important. Guess it's

1:02:38

you know, the greasy. We'll.

1:02:41

Wait, the squeaky wheel. Dad's really get

1:02:43

the greece has been a long day

1:02:45

or two hundred and you know, so

1:02:47

they were able to do that. And

1:02:50

and members of Congress as you know

1:02:52

they pay attention to As as Sondra

1:02:54

says, The. Rps the real plagiarizing

1:02:57

upon an hour. I don't.

1:02:59

See was in charge of our peace

1:03:01

and then she became one yeah me

1:03:04

now and so they to stay focused

1:03:06

on the communities, they educated themselves about

1:03:08

the science Me: they're very smart people

1:03:10

as you now and then they they

1:03:12

figured out like legislatively they they navigated

1:03:14

the bureaucracy and they were relentless and

1:03:17

their advocacy. You know even if a

1:03:19

couple of only a couple of committee

1:03:21

members showed up at a hearing which

1:03:23

really pissed me off. Honestly I was

1:03:25

like these are my tax dollars at

1:03:28

work. Where the fuck is. Every. Line

1:03:30

where you get it was you know Monday

1:03:32

later when rare and and and we. And

1:03:34

we recorded it and wait while Chris

1:03:36

dead. And and so you honestly see

1:03:38

them working through the system. Sell As

1:03:40

much as I'd like to say, I

1:03:43

gave them advice. I really just tried

1:03:45

to give them my support and encouragement

1:03:47

of. Close friend or I follow

1:03:49

you on on Twitter where you

1:03:51

are incredibly active. I can relate

1:03:53

some it's X now it's X

1:03:55

Now Yards I can and can't

1:03:57

do that affects your also incredibly

1:03:59

positive. And. Profound. Even as

1:04:01

you're like honest about how hard this

1:04:03

is, why is it important for you

1:04:06

to stay? So. Positive and

1:04:08

hopeful. For so many other

1:04:10

people. I

1:04:17

believe that we have a chance. To

1:04:21

change the world. For

1:04:25

people. Living

1:04:31

with all sorts of neurodegenerative disease

1:04:33

as. A Ah and

1:04:36

I also ah ah

1:04:38

ah ah ah. I

1:04:42

also have to stay positive. For

1:04:45

ties. Wow.

1:04:50

Oh yes, so much of my world is changing.

1:04:56

World. And

1:04:58

so I. Was.

1:05:03

So I root myself. In

1:05:06

hopes of ah.

1:05:10

Ah, we're all and

1:05:12

we have to. We

1:05:19

have. To.

1:05:24

What's. That word. Be.

1:05:33

A And banners o

1:05:35

Two banners behind your

1:05:37

desk. Yeah, One of

1:05:39

them says joy is

1:05:41

an act of resistance.

1:05:44

And the other one says just

1:05:46

said trouble. right? Yeah, However, are

1:05:48

you know who got those for us?

1:05:50

Bread coburn. Another

1:05:53

one of another alone along. i

1:05:55

think one thing to just watching

1:05:57

you know brain and sandra And

1:06:01

the way they communicate, the way

1:06:03

they love each other, the way they support

1:06:06

each other, I think this

1:06:08

film is very much a love

1:06:10

story. And I think a

1:06:12

lot of people wonder, what

1:06:15

would I do if someone I

1:06:17

loved was dealing with a

1:06:19

really tough debilitating illness like

1:06:21

this? And I think the two

1:06:23

of them are just

1:06:27

a beautiful example of unconditional

1:06:29

love and support. And for

1:06:31

that reason alone, I think

1:06:34

just watching them, you can model the

1:06:37

kind of love and relationship that you

1:06:39

wanna have in your life by watching

1:06:41

them. Yeah, I mean, thank

1:06:44

you guys for being here. Thank you for doing this. Like

1:06:47

congrats on all that you've achieved. And

1:06:49

I'm just so amazed

1:06:52

in an awe of both of

1:06:54

you. As I follow you

1:06:56

guys from afar, and now I feel so lucky that I get

1:06:58

to finally see you in person, because I haven't in so many

1:07:00

years. The documentary is for Love

1:07:02

and Life, No Ordinary Campaign. It comes

1:07:05

out May 28th on Amazon Prime.

1:07:07

So everyone check it out and good luck

1:07:09

guys. Keep up the fight. Thank you so

1:07:11

much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you,

1:07:13

John. Thanks Katie. Thanks Katie.

1:07:20

Adisoo, thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for

1:07:22

being here again. Thanks to Brian Wallach, Sandra Abavai, and

1:07:24

Katie Couric. John and I will be back

1:07:26

with a new podcast on Friday morning. Kira

1:07:57

Joaquin is our senior producer. Reid Turlin is

1:07:59

our... The show is

1:08:01

mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan

1:08:04

Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support

1:08:06

from Kyle Seglen and Charlotte Landis. Writing

1:08:08

support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer

1:08:10

is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat

1:08:13

is our head of production. Andy Taft is our

1:08:15

executive assistant. Thanks to

1:08:17

our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley

1:08:19

Jones, Mia Kellman, David Tolz, Kirill

1:08:21

Pallaviv and Molly Lobel. Thank

1:08:30

you for watching.