0:00

Have you ever told a friend? Oh, I'm fine.

0:02

When you really felt... Just so

0:04

overwhelmed. Then this is your sign to reach

0:06

out to the 988 Lifeline for 24-7 free confidential support. You

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don't have to hide how you feel.

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Text, call or chat anytime. Hi,

0:21

this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Nishkama.

0:23

And I'm Coco Card. This week, Parliament

0:25

gets a Chinese burn. Why are politicians

0:27

turning their backs on the WASPY women? And

0:29

what has Kim Jong-un got against Alan

0:31

Titchmarsh's trousers? Plus, our special guest is

0:34

the spoken word artist and activist George

0:36

the Poet. Hi

0:39

Coco. Hi Nish, how are you? Good, how

0:41

was your week? It's been good, you know, so

0:44

I'm going on holiday next week. Oh, fantastic. Oh

0:46

yes. Where are you going? I'm

0:48

sort of... What would you prefer to not say? I kind of don't want

0:50

to tell you. Is it North Korea? I'm

0:54

just going on a very nice beach holiday

0:56

too. I a nappa. You're

0:59

going to I a nappa? That's why I didn't want to

1:01

tell you. What, the site of 90s waves? 90s

1:04

UK garage, all right? It never dies. Wow.

1:07

But I'm actually... This is why I don't want to tell you

1:09

because I knew you were going to jump to the conclusion that

1:11

I'm going to be going and listening to like DJ

1:13

like an MC Neat. But I'm not. I'm actually...

1:15

It's just genuinely a beach trip. Right. So it's

1:17

very beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I mean, people always

1:19

say that Ibiza, the bit that isn't sort

1:23

of sweaty

1:25

clubs and rooms

1:27

where the walls have STDs is apparently like a very nice soothing

1:29

and peaceful place. It's very, you know, blessed in the Blairics, right?

1:31

So anyway, so that's where I'm going. So all of this week,

1:33

I've been trying to... Because

1:36

you know, when you go on holiday, you have to do

1:38

the work that you would normally do first. Yeah.

1:42

Yeah, yeah. So I've been kind of stressed out doing double time work.

1:45

The week before the holiday is the worst possible week. Just

1:48

feel weird with that. Like I feel someone should address this. That

1:50

needs as a system needs to be fixed. Because if before

1:52

you go on holiday, you just have to do everything you

1:54

did on holiday. Is it a holiday? Yeah.

1:57

Well, I found a solution to that. What's that? never

2:00

go on holiday. Great,

2:03

great solution. And who have you been

2:05

up to? I have

2:07

had an unusually show business week. On

2:10

Friday, I went to watch the

2:13

Young Fathers at the Royal Albert Hall. Yes.

2:16

For the Teenage Cancer Trust, who had incredible

2:18

charity and I think over 20 years

2:20

they've done a series of fundraising gigs at the Royal

2:22

Albert Hall. I know I went to see Franz

2:25

Ferdinand and a Teenage really dating me now, isn't

2:27

it? Yeah, really? What year was that? 2004? Maybe

2:29

2005? Yeah. Oh, that's great. I recall it. They're

2:31

good gigs.

2:35

And so that was great. And

2:37

then on Monday, I

2:40

went to the premiere of Monkey Man, which

2:42

is Dev Patel's movie that

2:44

he has co-written, directed and

2:47

stars in and is

2:50

produced by Jordan Peel of Get Out Fame. And let

2:52

me tell you, it was so

2:54

much fun. It is incredibly

2:56

violent. Yeah. It also has

2:58

a very strong subtext that

3:00

is pretty critical of India's

3:02

current rule and government. So

3:04

for me, ideal. Right. Strong

3:06

political subtext, hyper violent action

3:08

movie. It's absolutely ideal.

3:11

The only thing that's not ideal is,

3:13

you know, as an Asian

3:15

male working in the media, Dev is really

3:17

making us all look bad. I could see

3:20

Dev having a bit of a Bruce Lee flex,

3:22

actually. Well, he's been doing Taekwondo for

3:24

two kids. Yeah. I mean, he's

3:27

hench. He's by all

3:29

accounts, very nice. He's good

3:31

looking. He took his mum to the

3:33

Oscars. He dedicated this film in the

3:36

introduction to his grandfather, who was like, and this

3:38

is all about like the stories of Hanuman used

3:40

to tell me earlier, Greg. And I have to

3:42

say, I was not the only South Asian man

3:44

in the audience just going, you're making us all

3:46

look bad. You know what, Dev? Suck it. You

3:49

know, you have that moment where you're like, I'm glad

3:51

you exist, but how do we contain you? How

3:53

do we lock you away? I'm culturally thrilled

3:56

by your impact. Personally, I'm

3:58

furious about. how bad

4:00

you're making the rest of us look. Okay, well, I

4:02

mean, again, as usual, you outshine me with your

4:05

high end. Last time I watched

4:07

was The Beekeeper. I finally watched it. You

4:09

watched The Beekeeper? Very good. I

4:11

mean, one is good, but it is, you know, good.

4:13

Did you enjoy the bit where he says to be

4:15

or not to be? Yeah, I did. The

4:25

House of Commons has gone into recess over Easter,

4:27

and you have to wonder how many Conservative

4:30

MPs will come back after the 20-day break.

4:32

Because currently they are dropping like flies. The

4:34

Education Minister Robert Halfon has cleared out

4:36

his desk. He's the latest Conservative to

4:39

quit his ministerial post and

4:41

announced that he'll be leaving Parliament at

4:43

the next election. And he'll be joined

4:45

by Armed Forces Minister James Heepe, who's

4:47

also resigned from his post. All

4:49

of which meant that Rishi Sunak had

4:51

to do a quick last-minute mini-re-shuffle, most

4:54

notably promoting backbench, Redwall, Blohard, Jonathan

4:56

Gullis into Lee Anderson's old role

4:58

of Deputy Party Chairman. Although I

5:01

think we can all agree that

5:03

unofficially his role is basically owning

5:05

the libs by talking shit. One

5:08

positive note for the Beleaguer-Sunak is that

5:10

neither Halfon nor Heepe seem to be

5:12

leaving in a half. Both have written

5:14

resignation letters that were incredibly loyal. They've

5:18

not tried to leave by causing a problem, unlike

5:20

the aforementioned Lee Anderson. So a

5:22

much more damaging story for the Tories

5:24

is the resignation this week of their

5:26

disgrace MP and gambling shill, Scott Benton.

5:28

He jumped before he could be pushed.

5:30

He was facing a vote by his

5:32

constituents on whether to remove him after

5:34

he was banned from the Commons following

5:36

a lobbying scandal. Benton was filmed

5:39

secretly telling undercover reporters who were

5:41

posing as gambling industry investors that

5:43

he could lobby ministers for them.

5:45

He was also recorded offering to

5:47

table parliamentary questions and leak

5:49

a confidential policy paper for up to £4,000

5:52

a month. The

5:54

by-election in Blackpool South, which is one of the

5:56

most deprived areas in England, will take place on

5:58

the 2nd of May when... voters in England

6:00

and Wales go to the polls for

6:02

local and mayoral elections in which it's

6:05

predicted that the Conservatives could lose up

6:07

to 500 seats. And

6:09

as for Scott Benton, what's

6:11

the betting that he lands a cushy job at

6:13

a gambling company? So let's turn our

6:16

attention to the plight of what's known as

6:18

the WASP women. So that stands for Women

6:20

Against State Pension Inequality. These are a group

6:22

of 60 plus women who were expecting by

6:24

now to be putting their feet up on

6:26

a state pension. For years, the pensionable age

6:29

for women was 60 and for men 65.

6:31

Then in 1995, the Conservative government decided it

6:35

should be the same for both. It was meant

6:37

to be a phased transition, but then the

6:39

coalition government decided to speed it up. Many

6:42

thousands of women said they had no idea they had

6:44

to wait longer to receive their state

6:46

pension, and they've suffered financial and emotional

6:48

distress as a result. So a report

6:50

by the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman

6:52

who spent five years examining the issue

6:54

recommended that the women should receive an

6:56

apology and pay out of between £1,000

6:58

and £2,950. However, the Ombudsman can't compel

7:00

the government to

7:05

pay compensation and said that

7:08

DWP had clearly indicated that

7:10

it would, quote, refuse to

7:12

comply, which was, quote, unacceptable.

7:15

This week, the Work Compension Secretary Mel Stride

7:18

told the comments that the report would be

7:20

properly considered and Labour, while calling on him

7:22

to act quickly, also failed to say what

7:24

they would do about compensation. Listen, I think

7:27

this is a massive story that doesn't get

7:29

enough attention. I think we should all be

7:31

seriously outraged about it. I feel like it's

7:33

got post office scandal, ITV drama vibes about

7:37

it. Like I honestly think you could adapt it for

7:39

TV and really hit home

7:41

to people how awful this is. Yeah,

7:43

that's right. And because,

7:46

as unfortunately with the post office scandal,

7:49

lots of people have died without receiving

7:51

any compensation, right? There's a figure that

7:53

I've read that's 70,000

7:56

of these women affected by the pensioners

7:58

change have died without receiving. any compensation.

8:01

And I keep wondering why is it not getting

8:03

so much attention? And I wonder, and I don't

8:05

know what you think about it, but I feel

8:07

like us as millennials can be possibly

8:09

apathetic towards these plights of an older

8:11

generation, you know, the boomers were told

8:13

to get everything. But you know, of

8:15

the boomers, they were working class boomers, you

8:18

know, and a lot of the women

8:20

impacted by this would have been working

8:22

class women who were working in factories,

8:24

working on shop floors, working as nurses, working at, you

8:26

know, the 70s, you know, I mean,

8:29

like it wasn't exactly a time of the high

8:31

flying woman. And, you

8:33

know, they can't do those jobs now

8:35

at 66 68 and upwards, and they shouldn't have

8:38

to they would they were given a promise and

8:40

that those promises should be kept. And also, if

8:43

they break the promises to them, then they'll break them to us,

8:45

right? Yeah, I mean, currently, it feels

8:48

like our generation's plan for

8:50

pensions is just to let the climate crisis

8:52

engulf us like that. It does slightly seem

8:54

like that fiery death. Yeah, we're all just

8:57

gonna burn anyway. So we might as well

8:59

spend our money while we can. But what

9:01

I would say is, the thing

9:03

that's confusing to me about this story, why

9:06

are the Conservative Party not more interested

9:08

in pursuing this policy? And have they

9:10

just fully given up? This is

9:12

a policy that affects older people, they're

9:14

certainly not making inroads in younger generations,

9:16

we talked a few times about how,

9:20

you know, the median age for the population

9:22

turning towards conservative votes is rising year

9:24

by year. You know, as outcomes

9:27

change for

9:29

generations, there's very little for people to conserve. So they're

9:32

not turning to a conservative party is a kind of

9:34

simplistic way of looking at it. But these

9:36

are older people, these are supposed to be

9:38

their voters. I don't understand the Tory party

9:40

on some sort of, is this like a

9:42

springtime for Hitler situation? Are they deliberately trying

9:44

to tank their own party? It's not just

9:46

the Tories, is it? I mean, Labour aren't coming

9:49

out better on this, because the fact of the

9:51

matter is, it all costs a ton of money

9:53

to give these women compensation. It's certainly a story

9:55

that I'm glad you've brought to the attention of

9:57

the listeners, because I do think it's not receiving

9:59

enough. attention. Podsaid

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12:00

not the diplomatic rile that's

12:02

brewing over North Korea censoring

12:04

Alan Titchmarsh's trousers. Well, he knew

12:06

he writes munchy novels. Does he really? Yeah,

12:08

he does. Wait, I didn't know he wrote,

12:10

he writes erotic. He writes erotic literature. For

12:12

listeners who are not from the United Kingdom

12:15

or not over 35 years old, we

12:18

should clarify Alan Titchmarsh, very

12:20

inoffensive, well-liked British broadcaster, specialising

12:22

in programs about gardening. North

12:25

Korea's state television channel have

12:27

censored an episode

12:30

of one of the BBC gardening programs, this Alan

12:32

Titchmarsh's Garden Secrets, which if I'm honest, does sound

12:34

like the name of a porn movie. Thank you.

12:38

A 2010 episode aired on

12:40

North Korean state television, but they

12:42

have blurred out his trousers. Now,

12:45

there's a lot of things to unpack here. We'll

12:47

try and do it briefly because it's clearly

12:50

not the important news story of the week

12:52

in regards to a diplomatic rile with the

12:54

country and the Far East. But what I

12:56

would say is that, A, North Korea state

12:59

TV shows Alan Titchmarsh programs of 2010. It's

13:02

universal, babe. That is

13:04

a residual check. I don't think Titchmarsh could have

13:06

been anticipating. But the reason that they

13:08

said that they've censored it

13:10

is they censor genes because they're

13:13

a symbol of Western imperialism. What

13:15

I would say is I have

13:18

seen photographs, still photographs, of the

13:20

censor genes. And it looks like

13:23

Titchmarsh has got a raging boner. See,

13:26

there's no way to talk about it other

13:28

than that. It looks like not only does

13:31

Titchmarsh have a because they've only really blurred

13:33

out his sort of hair. Well,

13:35

I mean, in fairness, I

13:38

when I first saw the image, I didn't

13:40

actually know the story. And I thought it

13:42

was an erotica thing. Even the gene is

13:44

synonymous with male erotica, George Michael's face video.

13:47

You're the Andy Warhol cover for Rolling Stone's Sticky

13:49

Fingers. Yes, exactly. So I thought, well,

13:51

he does write erotica. Well,

13:54

look, maybe he's thirsty Alan Titchmarsh. We don't

13:56

know. You know, if I was

13:59

Alan Titchmarsh, I wouldn't dispel any of these rumours

14:01

because somehow North Korean state TV has made it

14:03

look like he's packing seriously That is some An

14:06

impressive piece of gardening equipment But before

14:09

we go down a road that is only going to be edited

14:11

out with the final broadcast Please

14:13

move on to the actual significant story Look

14:16

a major diplomatic rail has broken out

14:18

between UK and China after Deputy Prime

14:20

Minister Oliver Dowden accused China of being

14:22

behind Malicious cyber campaigns that would be

14:25

against MPs and the electoral commission. I

14:28

can confirm today That

14:30

Chinese state affiliated actors were

14:32

responsible for two malicious

14:35

cyber campaigns targeting both

14:37

our democratic institutions and

14:40

parliamentarians first the

14:43

compromise of the united kingdom electoral

14:45

commission between 2021 and 2022

14:50

which was announced last summer and

14:52

second attempted reconnaissance

14:55

activity against UK parliamentary

14:57

accounts in a separate campaign

15:00

in 2021 Rishi

15:02

Sunak is reportedly facing anger from some

15:05

MPs over what they have characterized as

15:07

a feeble response from the prime minister

15:09

That's after the government announced sanctions against

15:11

two hackers and the small firm in

15:13

Wuhan a lot of stuff going

15:15

on in Wuhan A

15:17

lot of stuff going on in Wuhan. I'm

15:19

glad you mentioned that I really i'm surprised

15:21

that we're back talking about Wuhan again So

15:25

And the most high profile figure to

15:27

be targeted by the chinese is the

15:29

former conservative leader sir ian duncan smith

15:32

Who's a member of the inter-parliamentary alliance

15:34

on china which scrutinizes and often criticizes

15:36

the activities of beijing He likened the

15:39

government's announcement of sanctions to an elephant

15:41

giving birth to a mouse The

15:43

chinese embassy in the uk says the

15:46

allegations are completely unfounded and amount to

15:48

malicious slander Nish this is

15:50

a far cry from the days Do

15:52

you remember those days when david cameron would

15:55

have a pint with president jihyun

15:57

ping? Yeah, that's right. Um,

15:59

cameron Trump visited Beijing when he was Prime Minister

16:01

in 2013 and called it the

16:03

start of a golden era between the two countries

16:06

and said that the UK would be the country's

16:08

strongest advocate in the West. Then

16:10

in 2015, he really rolled out

16:12

the carpet for Xi Jinping, took

16:14

him for a pint at

16:16

a pub in Chequers,

16:19

and he also posed for a

16:22

selfie with Sergio Aguero when the

16:24

two men visited Manchester City's training

16:26

ground. Then after leaving No. 10,

16:28

and this is where we get into somewhat

16:31

sticky terrain, because obviously this

16:34

is a serious diplomatic row that's

16:36

brewing, and given that David

16:38

Cameron has made an unfathomable, to many

16:40

of us, return to politics as foreign

16:43

secretary, it is an issue

16:45

that David Cameron, after his time

16:47

in No. 10, continued to engage

16:49

with Chinese interests, leading a billion-dollar

16:51

UK-China investment fund for which he

16:53

visited Beijing and had dinner with

16:55

Xi in 2018. He

16:58

also took on a payroll supporting

17:00

a major port project in Sri

17:02

Lanka, which is backed by huge

17:04

Chinese state investment. Now, to be

17:06

clear, Cameron's spokesperson has said that

17:09

he has not engaged in any way

17:11

with China or any Chinese company, in

17:13

regards specifically to his appearances on behalf

17:15

of the Colombo Project. But I

17:19

imagine there is some concern here. And

17:21

also, there is a problem with us trying to

17:23

talk tough on China. The

17:25

Cabinet Minister Gillian Keegan basically admitted as such

17:28

when she said that we get a lot

17:30

of our imports from China. So

17:33

look, there is an issue

17:35

with talking tough on a country

17:38

so much of whose money is

17:41

pouring into Britain, and it is

17:43

worth asking the questions of David

17:45

Cameron about his conduct. There is

17:47

starting to be the sense that

17:49

David Cameron basically left No. 10

17:51

with an assumption that he would not return

17:53

to politics. That's my personal view on this

17:56

situation. It feels like everything that Cameron has

17:58

done, not just on this issue. But

18:00

if we look at the scandal

18:02

around his involvement in Greensill, there

18:05

is a sense to me that David Cameron

18:07

left politics and thought, well, I'm never going

18:09

back there again. He was flipping

18:11

everyone the middle finger on his way

18:13

out. And he was basically now thinking,

18:15

well, I'll basically cash in on my

18:18

ministerial influence. Now he's returned

18:20

to politics that period of time

18:22

where he was out in the political

18:25

wilderness, but in the financial dumping

18:27

ground of just huge stacks of

18:30

money into his account. There are

18:32

serious questions for Foreign Secretary David

18:34

Cameron. And there are also serious

18:36

questions over Prime Minister Rishi Sunak's

18:38

judgment in bringing Cameron back into

18:40

frontline politics. Our

18:46

special guest this week is George

18:49

McPanger, better known as the spoken

18:51

word artist, poet, podcast, rapper, author,

18:53

activist, George, the poet. Have I

18:55

missed anything? I don't know. Are

18:57

you still about to take that welding? Let's

19:01

just keep adding thoughts about it. It's on the

19:03

to-do list. But thank you very

19:05

much for having me, guys. No worries. Thank you

19:07

for being here. Yeah, thank you for being here. You're about

19:09

to publish a new book, which is a

19:12

sort of memoir. It's called Track Record

19:14

Me, Music of the War on Blackness.

19:17

And it's a book that you... I can't

19:19

remember the exact phrases. You've set out

19:21

to write an autobiography. Yeah. And then...

19:24

What? I'd say very

19:27

sidetracked. Yeah, yeah, you could

19:29

say sidetracked. I guess I

19:31

became very immersed in the context of my

19:34

story. And the context is a global one.

19:36

You know, I think we can all look

19:38

at our stories, our

19:40

journeys, those of our forebearers in

19:43

their international historical context. And I think

19:45

that's something that we should try

19:48

and do a bit more. I

19:50

mean, the context of your

19:53

background is fascinating in so

19:55

many ways. Your grandmother

19:57

was actually a Ugandan politician.

20:00

That's right. Yeah, yeah, Joyce Mpanga.

20:02

She was the first minister for

20:04

women's affairs in Uganda in

20:06

the 86 government That's absolutely

20:09

incredible. And then you

20:11

actually I mean you

20:14

contemplated going into politics at

20:16

one stage Can you imagine? I

20:20

did I don't know George. I

20:22

mean, I mean You

20:25

seem clean and articulate and that

20:27

would put you above I would say 99 Conservative

20:30

party right now. Have you seen a photo of Jonathan

20:32

Gullis? Man looks like he woke up in a hedge

20:35

Yeah, I mean The

20:38

the state of our politicians isn't anything to

20:40

judge ourselves by

20:42

but Yeah, no,

20:45

I was interested in potentially Trying

20:48

to enter Parliament in some way. I didn't

20:50

know what to make of How

20:53

I would be positioned and a lot of this book is

20:55

me Finally articulating things that

20:57

I knew would be real sticking points

20:59

if I was to pursue a political

21:02

career I mean you occupy a really

21:04

interesting position. I think that reflects us as

21:06

well, you know, we From

21:09

like the arts and culture space, you know

21:11

this idea that politics doesn't just happen in

21:13

Westminster upon it politics happens in everyday life

21:15

Like how you live the day-to-day of your

21:17

life what you eat how much you can

21:19

afford the bins being hang out That's politics.

21:21

And so when you feel that

21:23

politics is on the street in politics is in

21:25

culture What use is there for

21:28

politics of Westminster and I wondered could you today

21:30

that you thought about going into politics and now

21:32

you Know what? What is your relationship to Westminster

21:34

now? How do you feel about it? I

21:37

feel very alienated from Westminster as I think

21:40

many if not, most of us do I The

21:44

election of George Galloway was interesting. I'm still trying

21:46

to figure out what to make of it It

21:50

I noticed that it caused a shift within me to think

21:52

oh, maybe Maybe

21:54

this thing if that

21:57

was to happen across the country and

21:59

people were to align with

22:01

their whoever

22:03

they felt most reflected what was most

22:06

important to them as

22:08

whole constituencies maybe but

22:11

I feel deeply cynical towards

22:13

Westminster at this time. I've seen

22:15

so much disingenuous lip

22:19

service paid to values,

22:21

principles and morals that they don't adhere to

22:23

time and time again. I was doing my

22:25

A levels I think when the, do you

22:27

remember the expensive scandal? Yeah, I

22:30

was doing politics A level when the expensive scandal

22:32

broke and I remember being like, these people are

22:34

not nice

22:36

people. I just feel like everything

22:41

I've seen since then is

22:44

more of that. So

22:46

maybe, you know, I'm open to the idea

22:48

that there might be a generational change since

22:50

I do believe millennials and Gen Z are highly

22:54

skeptical of these institutions. But

22:57

yeah, it wouldn't be my first port of call. And

22:59

also if George Galloway is the best we can

23:01

muster for representation, then we're fucked. Yeah,

23:04

it's crazy. Sorry,

23:07

I was just curious when you were talking now. Oh,

23:09

do you? Yeah, I was just curious. I

23:11

haven't voted in a while. I haven't

23:13

voted in a while. I don't know what I'm gonna do

23:16

next election. I mean, yeah.

23:18

Do you spoil or do you not show? Do

23:20

I spoil? I'm not sure. Or your ballot

23:22

paper? Oh, no, I just,

23:24

just stay away. That's,

23:28

I would say that's probably pretty damning indictment

23:30

of the state of our politics. Someone

23:33

is politically engaged to you. It

23:35

feels that they can't affect any

23:37

change even by voting. And for

23:40

years I've been approached by organizations

23:42

that want me to promote the

23:44

vote. Yes. And I've just

23:46

been like, this

23:48

doesn't feel serious. This doesn't feel real. And

23:52

yeah, that's a, that's a,

23:54

that's a real, it's a growing

23:56

problem in my life. I don't know what I'm

23:58

gonna do. Eee. We're going

24:01

to have to figure out who.

24:03

I mean, yeah, because

24:05

I mean, I would always say like,

24:08

because I've also done similar things like

24:10

to get out, especially people

24:12

of color to go and vote because I still always

24:14

there's still a part of me that believes like we

24:16

have to sort of the engagement

24:18

is still the best way of

24:22

tilting policy towards making things that

24:25

actually have relevance to our lives. You

24:27

know, I think because we get trapped,

24:29

I think you get trapped in a

24:31

situation where if the only people that

24:33

vote are old white people, which statistically

24:35

unfortunately is the only people that vote,

24:37

all of the parties manifestos that come

24:39

back are just policies aimed at old

24:42

white people. Yeah,

24:44

that's one way of conceptualizing

24:46

our situation. Where I

24:48

get stuck is obviously what is on

24:50

offer. Obviously, I

24:52

don't see much divergence, I don't

24:54

see much variation. And the

24:58

parameters of debate nowadays just seem to

25:00

be narrowing and narrowing. And

25:02

I do think it's something

25:05

to just keep us a little busy, you

25:08

know, make us feel like we've we are

25:10

part of the political process, where there's a

25:13

much deeper process of, I think,

25:15

political sensitization. Expanding

25:17

the conversation. That's that that's

25:20

the end of politics that

25:22

I'm on. Yeah, at

25:24

one point, there was meaningful. There

25:26

was something meaningful in saying that I'm gonna vote labor. But

25:30

now, you know, labor

25:32

as opposed to the Tories, we spent the last

25:34

however many years on the Tory rule. When

25:38

I was a kid, it felt like there was there was some

25:40

kind of polls and there was some kind of difference. Now,

25:42

I do not believe that is on

25:45

the table. I don't know what you guys think. Do you think

25:47

there's any? Well, at

25:50

the moment, it's very hard to know. Yeah, labor

25:53

stands for because the entire

25:55

tactic seems to be say nothing.

25:58

Hope for Tory. believe that

26:01

there is an identity to the Labour Party at

26:03

this point. I mean, I'm really conflicted. Like you,

26:05

you know, I grew up in like council

26:08

housing, like grew up in the end.

26:10

And you know, I remember the labor

26:12

years being a bit better for my

26:14

family and my community. I remember that

26:16

like 1970. What was it? 2010.

26:21

I remember that being improvement. So I still have a little

26:23

bit of that in me saying that, okay, it's not far

26:25

enough. It doesn't go where I want it to go. But

26:28

it is better. And can I not

26:30

help participate in like lifting the just

26:32

the weight on that that community just

26:34

a little bit more. I'm

26:37

really conflicted by that. Other times

26:39

I feel like I'm being bribed because the other

26:41

guys are so bad, but I'm being bribed into

26:43

it. And then other times I feel genuinely quite

26:45

inspired where I'm like, the Labour Party is not

26:48

just the leadership, it's the movement, it's the trade

26:50

unions, it's the activists, and that's got a really

26:52

long legacy. And you still believe that it's one

26:54

of those things? I don't know. But

26:56

those are my conflicting thoughts. And it's weird, isn't

26:58

it? You have all of them at once. And

27:03

I understand is what I'm saying. I get it. I

27:05

get why people say, this situation is not one

27:07

I want to participate in. I'm sort of not very

27:09

clear. I think you know where you are. I

27:12

mean, I there's also part of me that's just,

27:15

I think just mechanically this ruling

27:18

party has to be removed at the moment, because I think just

27:21

it's not we don't have a functional government

27:23

at the at the minute. If you

27:25

look at actual

27:27

policymaking, there isn't

27:30

just a question of I disagree with the

27:32

policies that they're producing, they

27:35

are unable to make policy, because

27:38

all it is is it's a kind of

27:40

weekly psychodrama. And soon acts position is

27:42

essentially untenable. You know, he knows that he wasn't

27:44

wanted by the membership of his own party. So

27:46

he spends all of his time trying to appeal to

27:48

them. That means

27:50

that he doesn't actually you know, they what

27:52

policy achievements can they point to? Because

27:56

they are politically unable to make

27:58

it because of you know, we're just

28:01

at the end of it's basically like the

28:03

Conservative Party in the mid-90s, it

28:06

was at the end of a cycle of government. So my

28:09

main overriding feeling at the moment is that

28:11

they just need to go. I mean, we're talking about the

28:13

we're all talking about the Labour Party here, but actually

28:15

there are other options. I was going to ask

28:18

about that. Yeah, I mean, I was lying

28:20

if I wouldn't say I am tempted by the Greens.

28:22

Yeah. I'm like, Oh, hello. Maybe I

28:24

can answer that call. Yeah,

28:26

most definitely. I do think the Greens are

28:29

probably going to have going to make some

28:31

significant gains in the next election. And I'm

28:34

for the first time in my life taking them seriously.

28:36

I will never forgive Labour for

28:38

their support for this genocide. It's just is what

28:41

it is. Either they don't

28:43

know or they don't care. But

28:45

I really one way

28:47

or another, the Labour leadership, I don't

28:49

think has properly calculated the impact

28:52

the rhetoric around Gaza is having

28:55

on its own vote. And I

28:57

think aside from the moral

28:59

imperative, which is obviously the most important thing,

29:02

I also I don't think that

29:04

they've realised electrically the damage that is

29:06

doing them with their

29:08

own base. Well, I mean, I don't know. Well,

29:10

maybe they don't realise maybe they don't care. I

29:12

can't I can't definitively answer that one way or

29:15

another. But either way, it seems it

29:17

seems astonishingly self-defeating. But

29:20

if not Westminster, what I mean,

29:22

this is something you talk about in the book, like,

29:24

how do you make political change? What can it look

29:26

like? I think the one thing that we don't have

29:28

is a grassroots

29:30

culture of political

29:32

education. So most of

29:35

us are thrown into the political space when

29:37

we're old enough to vote. And

29:39

we take our cues from media. And

29:43

many of us just never get the time to really

29:45

deep dive into where

29:47

our political culture evolved from,

29:50

why it is that the

29:52

labour years felt so different

29:54

from today. Why is

29:56

that even Middle East

29:59

policy within the Tory party within the

30:01

Republican Party was so different,

30:03

you know, or not so different,

30:05

but had significant differences from the

30:07

80s to now. These are

30:09

things that we really need to wrestle

30:12

with over our lifetimes, not just when

30:14

it's an election cycle. And I think

30:16

that is the missing piece in our

30:18

democracy, long term political education.

30:21

At the start of my journey,

30:23

I was trying

30:25

to generate ideas from for the creative milieu

30:27

that I came from the social milieu that

30:29

I came from. You know, I was from

30:32

the working class black community, the artist

30:35

community of a certain generation. We came up

30:37

under the first wave of grime. And I

30:40

saw guys develop so many

30:42

talents and opportunities and cultural touch

30:44

points. I just saw Mo the

30:46

comedian on Jimmy Fallon the other

30:48

night. And he was very much part

30:50

of that generation. He was part of my come up.

30:52

I don't think people realize that like he's very sort

30:54

of of that kind of yeah, he gave me the

30:57

name George DePauw. He didn't realize it. He didn't. Yeah,

30:59

he was just I

31:01

didn't really have a stage name. And he was just introducing

31:03

me. Other people kind

31:06

of contributed some ideas as well. So I won't

31:09

put it all on the bar. I remember

31:11

him being there. But

31:13

ultimately, I was like, look, we generate

31:16

all of this cultural activity, how can

31:18

it translate into a

31:20

way of organizing our community? And

31:23

again, you get to organizing the communities with the

31:25

answers to the questions that you're asking Coco, like

31:27

ultimately, this is where we will

31:29

be able to make our

31:31

decisions about the direction of our

31:34

society at a community level, with

31:36

some level of coordination across the

31:38

country. And it happens. It

31:40

happens in various ways. There's a reason why

31:42

motor comedians on Jimmy Fallon, of

31:45

course, primarily his hard work got

31:47

him there. But in a broader

31:49

sense, our collaboration, our cultural artistic

31:51

space got him there got me

31:53

here, allowed British rap

31:55

to be become a best selling

31:57

genre, which was on Adam when we were growing.

32:00

up. So what more could we

32:02

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32:11

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authorized by any candidate or candidate's

33:24

committee. Where

33:34

do you stand on the idea that artists

33:36

have an obligation to

33:39

engage politically with

33:41

their circumstances

33:43

in which they're making art? Yeah, that's not

33:45

a mainstream idea right now. It's not a

33:48

very popular angle. I think it comes from

33:50

the breakdown of our responsibility

33:52

to each other. I think because we

33:54

can no longer assume that we have

33:57

a responsibility, a collective

33:59

responsibility, to society because we are

34:01

made to feel so individualized and we're

34:03

propagandized in these ways from all sorts

34:05

of angles. It's very difficult to

34:08

convince most people that artists who

34:10

come up in this context should

34:13

also be speaking to our political

34:16

reality. What if they are

34:18

really down there? Yeah, but

34:20

this is the thing again, going back

34:22

to political education. Most of us

34:25

are unable to really comment.

34:27

Most of us are made

34:30

useless, made redundant

34:32

to the political process by an education

34:35

system that doesn't require us to

34:38

engage with it. So, you know,

34:40

there are no short answers to the way out. This

34:42

is why when you ask me what I think should

34:44

happen, it is a pivot

34:46

towards long term

34:49

grassroots political engagement

34:51

and just once and for all

34:53

abandoning this culture of it

34:56

being called to stay

34:58

aloof and somehow promote

35:01

what I'm promoting to you

35:03

is success without responsibility that

35:05

has to die. Success without

35:07

responsibility, oh yeah, that's a great phrase. You're

35:11

right. I should be surprised that

35:13

you could say the phrase, but

35:15

it's a great, yeah, success without

35:17

responsibility is fascinating. It is, I

35:19

mean, when I first started doing journalism

35:21

about arts and culture, like that tension

35:24

about like, oh, you know, why have

35:26

they got to talk politics about it?

35:28

It's annoying or what? And actually now

35:30

there's a sense of like, it's

35:32

gone so far that they're only doing it for clout.

35:34

And that's really an impossible thing to deal with. It's

35:36

like, well, you know, our faith in each other is

35:38

so poor, but then perhaps there is some truth in

35:40

it. There are those. Oh, okay.

35:43

There are those, but ultimately the

35:45

proof is in the pudding, right?

35:48

To what extent are we really able to

35:50

get to the root of what is disturbing

35:52

us as a society? You can

35:55

pose and you can pretend for a while,

35:57

but ultimately it will be the people to

36:00

whether or not you have raised

36:02

their consciousness, whether or not you

36:04

really are helping them practically deal

36:07

with the reality of their situation.

36:10

So yeah, I'm aware that

36:12

there are you know, clout chasers in this, but I

36:15

do think given enough time, the truth

36:17

will reveal itself about who's committed. So,

36:20

okay, but being in

36:22

the public eye, and you know this firsthand, people

36:24

are very unforgiving. You know, you're growing in the,

36:26

you're developing as a person in the public, you're

36:28

not fully formed by the time you become a

36:31

creative star, right? And also you've been in the

36:33

public eye since you were, I mean, a job,

36:35

really. Yeah, really. And people are

36:37

very unforgiving. Like, you know, there must have

36:39

been moments where you look back where you've

36:41

done stuff that you've said stuff where you've

36:43

participated in things have been like, that doesn't

36:46

really match who I am now. But hey,

36:48

you know what, I was learning, but people

36:50

won't figure. So one, what are your thoughts

36:52

on that sort of level of forgiveness? Do

36:54

you think that actually we do need to

36:57

better accept our cultural

37:00

leaders, makers, as

37:03

they grow? But what does that mean for the discourse?

37:05

Doesn't that mean we dumb down our dialogue? What about

37:07

standards? And also, can you tell us about

37:09

a time that you were human? Yeah,

37:12

I actually mentioned this in the book,

37:14

there was an incident about a

37:17

few years ago now when I

37:19

did an interview, the interview was

37:21

about prison education, I've been doing some

37:23

work in the prison education space. And

37:26

in the interview, what I meant to say, I

37:28

think what I did say was, when

37:31

you find someone in prison, there

37:34

is a unique space that

37:37

you can find them in where you can actually provide

37:40

opportunities for some real education has just

37:42

been my thing for a while. It

37:44

was an observer interview, because I didn't know

37:47

about it until I read the book. But

37:49

yeah, it's an observer interview. And you're talking

37:51

about specific work that you've done with people

37:53

who are incarcerated. Yeah, and giving your experience.

37:56

What I didn't realise is that it would

37:58

kind of come across as a if I am

38:00

advocating for the carceral system in general.

38:03

And many people took it

38:05

like that online. And the conversation

38:09

just got very crazy very quickly. And

38:11

there was a mix of people that had critiques

38:14

that I needed to hear with regards to how

38:16

I present myself in media and how I present

38:18

my arguments and how it is then framed. I

38:20

needed to hear some of that stuff. But then

38:22

there were people that were doing a lot, like

38:25

you said, very unforgiving, very nasty

38:28

side of social media. And

38:31

it kind of all got mixed up. And I

38:33

responded in a human way. I was kind of

38:35

feeling people one on one. They

38:39

shut off your prick kind of approach you. Some

38:41

people, I was trying to

38:44

be smarter than that. And

38:46

it was just kind of impossible because that

38:48

was a time where I feel like I should have

38:50

just listened and maybe

38:55

made a statement to clarify what I

38:57

believe and left it there. But

39:00

you get dragged in. They drag you in.

39:02

Beat you. Yeah. They don't even go for

39:04

the three every time you think you're out

39:07

there. Who do you fuck in? That

39:10

was my opinion to me. And yeah, no,

39:12

I learned from that experience. I used the word

39:15

woke in a way that is now associated

39:17

heavily with the right wing, which I hadn't read

39:20

the room at the time. I didn't realize at

39:22

the time the word woke, unfortunately,

39:24

had been appropriated away from its

39:27

origins. And I believe the black

39:29

American community. And

39:31

it was being used as a parody for

39:34

anyone that believes in anything progressive. And

39:38

I said something like, there's the problem with woke

39:40

culture when I was talking about performativity. Right. I

39:42

see. OK. Not you. A

39:45

lot of conversations happening. It's just hard.

39:47

It's lovely. It's

39:50

hard to navigate that. And

39:53

part of that is just part and parcel of being

39:55

a public figure, as well. It's

39:59

hard when it's your turn. team. Like

40:01

I think because it's like

40:03

I assume it's a bunch of I see you're

40:05

a similar person to me, there's certain people

40:08

that give you grief where you go, yeah, good. I

40:11

did something profoundly wrong

40:13

if you liked me. But when

40:15

it's, you know, I've had various

40:17

experiences of this in the past,

40:19

where it's people you broadly agree

40:21

with you like, there's a

40:23

defensiveness, I think where

40:25

you go, well, hang on. I'm

40:28

actually I'm one of

40:30

the first impulse

40:32

of I'm a good guy is often

40:34

I think what actually

40:37

makes things worse. But it's a totally human thing.

40:39

It's a totally human thing to for the first

40:41

thing you think to be, but I'm one of

40:43

the true. But if

40:46

you don't, I think if

40:48

you don't push against that impulse, you

40:50

just become more more defensive and then you

40:52

learn everything. That's my experience of these things.

40:55

And then you start arguing from a place

40:57

of ego, rather than principle. And

40:59

we're all using words being like, well, actually, I don't think

41:01

that's very feminist, but really, you just want to say, shut

41:03

up. Yeah, that's what you really mean.

41:06

But I'm really glad we're talking about

41:08

this, because I feel like we haven't

41:10

touched on this really on the podcast,

41:12

it's just whenever I hear people, conservative

41:15

people talking about all the cozy consensus

41:17

on the left, I'm like, what left

41:19

wing people do you know? It's

41:22

hard for people to agree on where to

41:24

eat on a Friday. Anything but. And

41:27

also, but I also really value

41:30

that because I think actually, out of

41:33

those constructive arguments, you can actually either

41:35

learn something and change your perspective, or

41:38

actually understand and reinforce something you believe

41:40

in. It's a really important part of

41:42

moving your thinking a lot. But it's

41:44

hard when we have the shut up

41:46

you prick. I think the shut up

41:48

you prick factor is what if we're

41:50

going to have grown up

41:53

progressive conversations, we

41:55

have to have disagreements, like we have to,

41:57

but we have to take the like. sharp

42:00

you prick out of it. For the sharp

42:02

you prick is human, right? You've

42:05

got such academic authority that it

42:08

already feels like an actual

42:10

piece of shit. Of course

42:12

you're supposed to have a prick print people.

42:15

Get to the sharp you prick. I

42:17

think if you look at how most of us were

42:20

using social media 15 years ago, it's different from

42:22

how we're using it today and in 15 years

42:24

time it will be different. We look at things

42:27

that we did 15 years ago when we cringe.

42:29

Yeah. We all cringe, we

42:31

all have cringe-worthy stuff that we did on social

42:33

media. So a lot of what

42:35

is happening is us moving

42:38

through this new media space and

42:41

learning what works and what

42:43

doesn't and as much as it is easy to

42:45

get into a sharp you prick space, we

42:49

on the left ultimately want progress

42:51

so we're gonna have to figure

42:54

it out. Is that a big part of why writing a

42:56

book is so important to you? Because it means you

42:58

can, because you can, it's a brilliant book and

43:00

part of the reason that I think it's so

43:03

good is that the

43:06

weaving of the person, the political is kind

43:08

of seamless. There's no gap between the personal

43:12

stories that you're trying to share with us

43:14

and the political ideas that you're trying to

43:16

advance. Thank you. On that note guys,

43:18

I have to say thank you so much George the

43:20

Poet for your time and his new book

43:22

is a searing read. It pulls no

43:24

punches, I think it's fair to say

43:27

and yeah, it's a beautiful summary of

43:29

all your thoughts and your lyricism. Appreciate

43:31

it. Thank you. Thank you for

43:33

having me. It's out on April 25th. Great.

43:37

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks

43:40

George. If

43:44

you're currently tuning into this episode on Google Play, listen

43:46

up. Starting next week, the Google

43:48

Play app will no longer be in use. Make

43:51

sure to save Pod Save the UK on your

43:53

next favourite podcast platform so you never miss an

43:55

episode. New episodes out on Thursday. Nish,

44:02

you're back on familiar territory giving a beat

44:05

down to our villain of the week. So

44:07

who have you gone for? I've gone

44:09

for Conservative Party headquarters for their

44:11

absolutely unfathomable attack ad on London

44:14

Mayor Sadiq Khan in support of

44:16

the party's candidate for London Mayor

44:19

who is called Susan Hall, a

44:21

name that I think we can all agree none

44:24

of us know. We live in

44:26

London, we have very little idea of who she

44:28

is, but a quick Google

44:30

reveals that she's called Susan Hall and

44:32

she's on social media expressed in support

44:34

for Donald Trump. So that's

44:36

exciting, that's exciting for the City of

44:38

London. The clip which was posted on

44:40

social media by the Conservative Party portrays

44:43

London as a city gripped by a

44:45

fear of crime with people cowering indoors

44:47

too afraid to leave the house. It

44:50

had to be taken down and

44:52

re-edited almost immediately because it

44:55

used footage of a stampede

44:57

in a New York City

44:59

subway station to depict panic

45:01

in London. Gripped by

45:03

the tendrils of rising crime, London

45:05

citizens stay inside. The

45:08

streets are quiet. Quieter

45:10

at night now than they used to be. A

45:13

54% increase in knife crime since

45:15

the Labour mayor seized power has

45:18

the metropolis teetering on the brink of

45:20

chaos. And

45:23

in the chaos, people seek a

45:25

desperate reprieve. Egged on

45:27

by the Labour mayor who wants to

45:29

decriminalise the use of illegal drugs. Yeah

45:33

so the footage of that stampede was from New

45:35

York's Penn Station following false reports of gunfire in

45:37

2017. I mean

45:39

there's a lot to talk about in this video. First

45:42

and foremost, why is the

45:44

narrator American? And

45:46

also, what part of

45:48

America is that person from? I

45:52

am from America. I

45:54

am definitely not a British man doing

45:56

an American accent. The

46:00

narrator warns of squads

46:03

of the U-Lazan forces. This is a

46:05

direct quote. I feel like I'm drunk.

46:07

This is squads of U-Lazan forces dressed

46:10

in black faces covered with masks, terrorizing

46:12

communities at the beck and call of

46:14

their labor, mayor, master, who was an

46:16

imp, who was implemented attacks on driving,

46:18

forcing people to stay inside or go

46:21

underground. Does that mean use the tune

46:23

or is this person implying that the

46:25

U-Laz taxes forced people in London to

46:27

become Ninja Turtles? It also

46:30

says, grip by the tendrils of rise and crime,

46:32

London citizens stay inside. The streets are quiet.

46:34

The streets are quiet because no

46:36

one can afford their mortgages because of the

46:39

Conservative Prime Minister who lasted less time than

46:41

a fucking vegetable. The

46:43

video also refers to Sadiq Khan as

46:45

seizing power rather than

46:47

being lawfully elected twice. Susan

46:50

Hall, the candidate who we all think

46:52

is a real person, has actually distanced

46:55

herself from the video saying that she

46:57

hadn't seen it and it had nothing

46:59

to do with her campaign team. It

47:01

was created by the Conservative Party headquarters.

47:03

And responding to the video's

47:05

claim that crime in the capital of Brisbane

47:07

during his time in office, Sadiq Khan said, because

47:09

of government cuts over the last 14 years, we've

47:11

lost thousands of police officers. The mayor also added

47:13

that crime had fallen in a number of categories,

47:15

including homicides, gun crime and burglary since he first

47:17

took office in 2016. So

47:20

the video is horse shit from beginning

47:22

to end. It's also really

47:25

badly made. I showed it to a friend of

47:27

mine yesterday and he thought that I was playing

47:29

a prank on him and that it was a

47:31

sketch that had been made. It's so abysmally

47:34

put together. I truly, my 17 year

47:36

old cousin could have done a better

47:38

job given 25 minutes and

47:41

access to iMovie. It's absolute horse

47:43

shit. We just, I

47:46

just at a certain point, is

47:48

it time for the Conservative Party to

47:52

just be wound up and

47:55

we all just send it, send

47:58

it off, give it a Viking funeral. and

48:00

just wind it up and small seekers

48:02

of the people of this country maybe

48:04

just start a new political party maybe

48:06

just start from the ground up because

48:08

based on this video i'm afraid this

48:10

thing is now just rotten to the

48:12

core never forget that susan hall said

48:14

she got robbed but she didn't someone just she

48:16

dropped her wallet and someone gave it back remember

48:19

that do you remember that whole thing i

48:21

don't know who susan hall is and i'm

48:23

not convinced she exists that's my conspiracy theory

48:25

for the week i don't think susan hall

48:27

is ai i think susan hall is ai

48:30

i think they've hired an actress all i

48:32

will say is if you think that this

48:35

is us being irresponsible broadcasters spreading half-baked conspiracy

48:37

theories based largely on falsehoods i would say

48:39

you should expend your energy being angry on

48:41

the conservative party for making this fucking out

48:43

this week um coco who's your

48:45

hero the week so this week i'm

48:47

going to talk about a hugely brave

48:50

and inspiring man who sadly passed away

48:52

this week it's richard taylor so he's

48:54

the father of damilola taylor we're about

48:56

the same age niche so you will

48:58

remember the news stories about damilola he

49:00

was just 10 years old when he

49:02

was stabbed and left to die in

49:04

a stairwell in peckham in south london

49:06

24 years ago it was horrific um

49:08

and it just sent chills up the

49:10

spine of every every family you know

49:12

richard made it his life's work to

49:14

tackle knife crime since then he was

49:16

particularly really moved by the stories of

49:19

families with young children impacted by that

49:21

um and he did amazing things he

49:23

was appointed as an anti-knife crime envoy

49:25

by then prime minister gordon brown and

49:28

was later made an obi for his services

49:30

to reducing youth violence he said he wanted

49:32

his son to be remembered as a boy

49:34

of hope and for his legacy to be

49:36

a better life and opportunities for underprivileged young

49:38

people i mean i've spoken in this section

49:42

before about like the

49:44

mothers who something happens to their

49:46

children and they they

49:49

basically say you know my child could not

49:51

exist in this world the world wanted my

49:53

child to change or be someone else and

49:55

so actually instead i will change the world

49:57

and i always thought that was really moving

49:59

and you know, actually, there's plenty of

50:01

fathers as well. And Richard is one

50:03

of those. So I just think his

50:05

work is incredible. So the Damelola Taylor

50:07

Trust runs a number of outreach programs,

50:09

including internship schemes, educational courses and mentoring

50:12

projects that will still continue. So his

50:14

work will still go on. And

50:16

Harriet Harmon, I think, said it best, really,

50:18

the former Labour Minister and MP for Campbellwell

50:20

and Petter and paid tribute to Mr. Taylor

50:22

on x saying he never stopped fighting for

50:24

other children to have the chances that his

50:26

son never had. It's an incredible man. So

50:29

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50:31

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50:33

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